Whakahokia mai te reo i te mata o te pene, ki te mata o te arero. Kei taku iti, kei taku rahi, nau mai ki Te Hui. Ko Mihingarangi tenei e mihi atu nei ki a koutou katoa. Welcome to The Hui, Maori current affairs for all New Zealanders. E taro ake nei. Should te reo Maori be compulsory in our schools? He aha te reo pai ki a koe? Who is responsible for its survival? On the eve of Maori Language Week, we discuss the big issues facing te reo Maori. www.able.co.nz Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2018 Karahuihui mai. Well, tomorrow marks the start of Maori Language Week, so today we're discussing the future of te reo Maori. Now, today's korero will be in both Maori and English. If you're not a speaker of te reo, stick with us ` you might be surprise by how much you pick up. And we'll be posting a translation of the programme online later. No reira, hei matapaki i nga take reo, kua tae mai enei manuhiri tuarangi ` ara ko tetahi o nga poutokomanawa o to tatou reo, ko Stacey Morrison, ratou ko te tumuaki o Te Taura Whiri i Te Reo Maori, ko Ngahiwi Apanui, ko tetahi kaihapai i te reo, he ika a whiro o Te Panekiretanga, ara ko Amomai Pihama, ko Carlin Shaw, kaiako reo Maori hoki. Tena tatou katoa. ALL: Kia ora. Ka pai. Well, kei te pehea to tatou reo? How are we going? (SPEAKS MAORI) I ki mai ai te Maori rua tekau ma tahi o rau o matou e mohio nei ki te korero Maori. Engari ko te mate ke, e waru o rau noa iho. O a tatou tamariki kei roto i te rumaki reo e te kura kaupapa ano hoki. Me na ka noho tonu ki te rua tekau, rua tekau ma tahi o rau me rua tekau ma tahi o rau ano hoki ki roto i nga kura kaupapa me te rumaki reo. Ki te kore ka hoki whakamuri ki te waru. We hear lots of reo Maori on our airwaves at the moment, so I guess tokomaha ake nga Pakeha e korero Maori, Stace? Koe na pea te rereketanga. I guess that's the difference that we feel now. Ano nei, he timatanga hou. And I think a lot of people talk about the resurgence, but that's because te reo Maori's come into their world. So I think in Aotearoa it's important to think about the fact that we tend to view language, and Maori language, in terms of our own paradigm ` te ao e mohio nei tatou katoa. ALL: Mm. No reira, tatou katoa ka rongo i te reo Maori i a te ra. So we might hear Maori every day, but not everyone does. So I guess the difference recently is that we have a resurgence in terms of Aotearoa whanui and in terms of goodwill towards the reo. And I think in terms of our feelings towards the reo, that that's really powerful and what change that that can make on a larger scale. Before I come over to this side of our tepu, I just want to say does that make a difference in what you're seeing? Yeah, we're definitely seeing that there's been an increase in New Zealanders who value te reo Maori. That's coming through our data sources as well. Is that important, though, in terms of growing the reo? Well, in terms of providing a supportive environment for te reo to grow, in terms of our children who go to kohanga and kura, and then at 10 find, OK, well, everybody else is speaking English so why not me? I wanna be like them. The peer pressure thing, right? Yeah. And then, you know, finish speaking Maori to you for a while until they switch back again. But it is important that our kids get to see that te reo Maori is valued by New Zealand society because that gives them the boost, the mana to tatou reo. I come to you, Amomai. There's been korero recently to concentrate on whare wananga and at schools to try and grow the reo there. (SPEAKS MAORI) What's your thoughts? (SPEAKS MAORI) I wish I had the opportunity, I wish I was exposed to not just the reo but also world view stuff. It's about world view stuff, because... (SPEAKS MAORI) It just opens up a whole nother way of looking at the world. It doesn't distract you from what you already know or anything, it just widens your pukoro... (SPEAKS MAORI) So I'm of the mind now... make it compulsory. (ALL LAUGH) Kua pakeke ake. It's amazing that you didn't think that at one time in your life, actually. (LAUGHS) As a reo Maori kaiako, what are your thoughts in terms of compulsory? We're going to talk about this in our next part for the whole session, but just give us a bit of a heads up on what you're thinking. Tautoko. Um, tuatahi, kei wareware whanaunga i kaha tautoko i to tatou reo ki a hoki ki tona taumata. Kia ora. I whakarite I o tatou tupuna. Kaore ano kia tae atu, kia hoki atu. No reira... (SPEAKS MAORI) Being at various colleges, I've heard it 15 years, seen kids who are now adults raising their own families. I ask them, 'How's the reo?' 'I wish I'd learnt it, but I focused on sports.' Mm. You know, 'I focused on... Cos STEM was the word, I had to focus on that, get a career. 'I wish I had done it. I wish somebody had forced me to do it. 'Because now in my adult years, I'm missing out.' It's kind of what Amomai was saying ` me haere ngatahi. You know, do the sports, do the reo at the same time. But our kids probably wouldn't choose it if we said, 'OK, what do you wanna do?' It's... We've pretty much enforced it on them, eh, Stace? (LAUGHTER) (SPEAKS MAORI) So when we look at the opportunities that we have in our homes, it is a bit more confronting. Because even Maori speakers will sometimes not give their tamariki te reo Maori. He mahi nui tonu. OTHERS: Ae. It's still a big job to do. No reira, me kaua tatou e wareware ki tena mahi nui, and what we actually can offer our tamariki. So if we send them to school and just want Carlin ma to do all of the mahi, ka i te tika ra nei tenei. Kia ora. You know, it's not actually fair. I wouldn't send my kid to a French school and say, 'Their French is fantastic,' even if I don't know what they're saying. Although that does happen. And you have to wonder why they come out at the end and they're not speaking French or, you know, Mandarin. Te reo Maori. Kia mau tonu mai ra te titiro ` ka koke tonu te Te Hui hei muri i nga whakatairanga. Nau mai hoki mai ki Te Hui, where today we're discussing the future of te reo Maori. So let's just jump right back into compulsory te reo Maori. Me pehea kei nga kura katoa? Ae. E pai ana. Hui e, taiki e. I spoke before about only 8% of Maori children being in Maori-medium education. And from the last census` And the figures have been trending downwards since 2003. Only 21% of our people saying 'we can speak Maori'. If you wanna maintain that 21% of Maori speaking Maori, the production pipeline is in Maori medium. It needs to be 21% of our children as well to keep pace with it. I think we'll see it go backwards before it goes forwards. Also the opportunity for our Maori kids that are in kura auraki to have the opportunity to learn te reo. But how do we do this when we're already struggling with kaiako? Ae, koia kei a koe. But there are so many issues to this, and I don't want us to get lost in an argument about compulsory Maori and go down a path that's not actually productive mo te reo Maori. But we have a massive teaching issue in terms of capacity, in terms of kounga ` that's the quality ` in terms of how we roll out these digital opportunities, I believe. (SPEAKS MAORI) It's so challenging. And I don't think we've got it right in terms of funding, in terms of strategy, and in terms of what it really takes to roll out te reo Maori as a compulsory subject. Carlin, maybe you can share with us, cos you're teaching at some kura auraki around Tamaki Makaurau. Tell us, what is it like for kids when they're starting to learn te reo Maori? Obviously you're there, you're sharing this gift with them. What are you seeing and hearing? It's taumaha. It's taumaha ma ratou. You know, you've got to catch up basically eight years of work in two years ` your year nine, year 10. And the school expects the students to do really well for NCEA. Mm. You know, it's taumaha. And etahi o nga akonga ka tae. Mm. (SPEAKS MAORI) What about school management? Are they open to this? Some are. You know, just like some teachers are keen, some teachers aren't. That's just the way it is. We are humans. Te mea nui he tangata. But that can have adverse effects. We've seen some people who are really keen for the reo. And they take their own time, learn it in school, out of school, driving the car. But then you've got some people who walk out of the room. And we know who they are. Mm. So the real question is ` who are we actually talking to? And once we find out if they're with us, ka pai. Korero tonu. (SPEAKS MAORI) (SPEAKS MAORI) I definitely agree with the fact that there isn't enough ` sorry ` quality reo teachers out there presently. Homai te wero. (CHUCKLES) There's some. (LAUGHTER) So I think ` and this might be a bit left-field, but I think we need to change track a bit and focus our energies in the next 20-ish years on ensuring the curriculum has a really well-versed thread that looks at history, our history here in New Zealand. Let's focus on worldview, on nga ma tapono o te ao Maori. Kia ora. Because you can teach that whether you have the language or not. In that time period, we're gearing teachers up to be prepared to roll out possibly a compulsory reo component to our education. But I think it's not just about the reo. Think about it ` there's a whole host of things that we need to be versed in... Kia ora. ...to be able to articulate when we communicate. Ko te kapa haka hoki nei. Ko te kapa haka hoki. These are all these peripheral things that we take with us wherever we go. Nga akoranga i te kapa haka. I mean, where else do you get a better training in commitment, in discipline? Ae. But I think learning expectations is a really important thing for Aotearoa whanui because people are largely monolingual in New Zealand, and if you've had a second or third language-learning experience, then you have more understanding about the wider and soft skills around language learning ` that you're holding dual information in your brain and you're choosing between it. (SPEAKS MAORI) And so those are the benefits that I think people miss out on. They only base understanding of value of language on how many people speak it. (SPEAKS MAORI) (ALL AGREE) It's that Maori world view. And also the view of understanding English once you can view it from the perspective of another language. Unfortunately, you're the only person who's in a real position of power here, so... (LAUGHTER) So I'm gonna throw this one to you. Who are you talking to? Who's on our side in terms of te reo in that political space? We've started our new function of language planning, which is the main instrument of implementing and expressing the government's language strategy, which hopefully will be approved by the 1st of November so we can get on with the real business. But we've had at least 50 organisations, government organisations come to us and say, 'We want a language plan. We want to give effect to te reo Maori 'within the public sector.' We signed a mahi tahi agreement yesterday with Vodafone. We've got Spark lining up, we've got Z participating. So I go back to what Stacey said before ` it's not about one thing; it's about doing a whole bunch of things. It's about Te Matawai doing what they're doing in the community, it's about us convincing the government that the data is there to support te reo being a core subject. And I wanna move away from 'compulsory' ` core subject. It's all part of revitalisation in schools. But we have to set up the infrastructure first, you know? And that may take us three to five years to do that. Mm. But the poor old Ministry of Education gets banged over the head every time compulsory comes up. It's not their decision to make; it's the government's decision. And it's our job to convince the government that that's the way to go. Tena koe. Kia kaha ra. Yeah. (LAUGHTER) He hua kua puta i Te Matawai ki o koutou whakaaro? (BOTH SPEAK MAORI) Kei te pai nga whakaritingia ki au nei. I wasn't one who supported it in the beginning, but I think that we can see some benefits that are coming from it. So then we have to be mindful that then things change. Maihi Maori, Maihi Karauna. That we are working in different ways but together. We have to make these plans. And I know it sounds boring, but we actually don't` we achieve nothing if we plan for nothing. Kia ora. O whakaaro, Amomai? Yeah. I te pera hoki au i a Stacey. I was Negative Nancy when it came to Matawai first off. I thought, 'Oh, here we go, another group of people that are gonna sit around and hui 'and nothing's gonna come of it.' (SPEAKS MAORI) We need to just allow it to kick off first, so I'll be watching later in a few years. Kei te tautoko koe tenei whakaaro ma te iwi hei tiaki te reo? Oh, ae. Ka tika. There is no one strategy that is the perfect strategy. The strategy that's used, tera te mea ka whakamahi koia te mea. Tika. You know, it's a braided river all leading to the same ocean ` ko te reo tera. All of us pass high fives all around. Ae, ka pai. Ika katoa. Taihoa e haere, ka haere tonu nga korero akuanei. Kei te matakitaki koutou i a Te Hui. Ngahiwi, he nui te putea e whakapo ki te reo Maori? (CHUCKLES) Uh... Um... It's a trick question. (SPEAKS MAORI) If you take our current level of funding and you split it by the head of population, I think you'll come to about $1.20 per head of population. And whether that is enough` What would be a good figure? Just for those Maori ministers out there. It'd be nice to get the same as the New Zealand Symphony Orchestra, for instance. Yes, well, I did a little bit of research on that, and they get $3.10 for every New Zealander. Should we expect more from our Maori ministers? We have more Maori ministers than any other time. What's our message to them? Kia kamakama. Kei reira koutou ki te tautoko i to tatou iwi Maori. (SPEAKS MAORI) Ae ra nei. Ae. Because that's money where our mouths are, literally, nei? And I know that it's hard. I think what you're talking about as well is about goodwill and understanding of the value of te reo Maori will translate into more initiatives, into more money. And when people drink the reo Maori Kool-Aid, they understand. They go, 'Wow, kua tuwhera te ao.' And I have seen a bit of a transformation. And that is a transformation in terms of how we interpret being a New Zealander, being a Pakeha New Zealander as well, and being Maori. So there's a huge opportunity, I think, that we are missing. That happened a little bit at the other radio station I used to work at, the Kool-Aid thing. And, you know, RNZ is really embracing ` even if it's sign-offs and tiny little things like that, and it really is making tiny little tweaks, and I think it's little bits at a time. We're not asking people to all be toihau over here. Oh, no, sorry, that's Ngahiwi. (LAUGHTER) But we are just asking for people to participate in something that is a valuable taonga for us all. So when you're working with kura and corporates and things like that, what are you hearing? And how do you get them over the line? Well, actually, firstly, with our kids, it's understanding ko te reo he rongoa. It is the answer. It is the answer. Mm. You get the reo... (SPEAKS MAORI) Mm. Maori mai, Pakeha mai. I te mea ka marama ratou. They all get it. You talk about pepeha, you know, and once a person understands that a pepeha is not just to say out loud where I'm from but actually to remind yourself who I am, so that when I'm in front of the fire I can bust it. But also, in the same respect, when I'm getting accolades, hoki mai ki te whenua. You know, it wasn't just me. Mm. You know, it was kotahi miriona tangata haramai i Hawaiki ki konei. You know? (SPEAKS MAORI) They got over those in order for me to sit right in front here with you! Whoa! Mm. Tika. So when they learn that at a corporate level, love it. Mm. They just gr` 'I wanna know more.' They get it, the CEOs in big companies who are after that 2% that makes them stand out, they get it. It's somewhere along the middle, somewhere there, like, 'Oh, maybe we don't need to.' And it's like, you know, if our kids get it, they get stronger, education works, health works. We don't have to worry so much about the really bad situation that we are at health-wise. You know, the rates. Rongoa is te reo. I guess that's a good place to start with you, Amomai. (SPEAKS MAORI) And here you are working at the moment in council. Whoa! So as somebody who was brought up in the reo and slept it and all the rest of it, going into a place like the council, what are the challenges in places where he aha nga wero? Do you know what? The only challenge was when I first arrived there, having never worked in amongst the team of non-Maori. Not just an organisation but a team as well as an organisation of non-Maori. Lasted about two months. After that, pai tonu. He tangata te tangata. Because` Maybe because of that upbringing, I don't even know when I'm being Maori or Pakeha or whatever. It's just me, right? And what it does, it makes me able to relate to people from a Maori setting, a non-Maori setting, other indigenous settings. And them to you. And for me. So I don't know the difference now. I've got 30 seconds each. If you can tell me your top tip for extending your reo or sharing your reo. A manawanui. To be brave, to be tenacious and to know that you're going to sound silly sometimes. Kei te pai. Kia kaha tonu. Yeah, same thing for me too. Don't be afraid to make mistakes. We learn from our mistakes. Simple as that. That was 10 seconds. (LAUGHTER) Use the reo. Use the reo that you have. We got you. We get it. We want you to use it. Ka pai. Listen to us saying we support you and we love that you're doing it. Ka pai. There's lots of resources out there online now. Just google it. It's all there. Wheako. Ae, Wheako, Te Ao Hangarau. (SPEAKS MAORI) (ALL AGREE) (SPEAKS MAORI) Kia ora. Ka pai. Hei whakakapia tatou. Korero mai mo te Kotahi Mano Kaika, how that's changed for Ngai Tahu. So, if you didn't know, in the year 2000 as a rangatahi advocate I was part of our plan that by 2025 Ngai Tahu would have a thousand Maori-speaking homes ` kotahi mano kaika. And so they've been really, I think, innovative and really supporting te reo te kainga, and our people have really been quite transformed. Because we may have our corporate wealth, but our cultural wealth is really what defines us, and our whakapapa. And so they've really put their money where their mouth is in terms of Ngai Tahu. I've personally benefitted hugely, and then I've felt a responsibility to give on to our community. (SPEAKS MAORI) Te kumara e korero mo tona ake reka. Korero mo. Amene. Ka pai. Kia ora, Ngai Tahu. Tena tatou katoa. Kia ora. Coming up next week on The Hui ` he survived a childhood of horrific violence at the hands of his father... One minute he's loving and caring, and the next minute he just turns into this wild person. ...and sought refuge in a gang, joining the Mongrel Mob. If I had to kill for them, I would've killed for them. Now Hopere Chase is on a mission to help heal others and his whanau. If we don't look after each other, we're gonna all get lost. That story next week. Kua hikina Te Hui mo tenei ra. We hope you have an awesome Maori Language Week, e hoa ma. He waiata na Maka hei whakakapi i ta tatou hotaka i tenei ra. No reira noho ora mai ra. (CHILDREN LAUGH, CHATTER) (UPBEAT MUSIC) # E hoki mai ra # kia kite atu i to iwi e. # E rotarota ana # e katakata ana mai ra. # Pukana whetero mai i te ihi a o matua. # Kia kite atu ano i to ataahua ai kanapa ra. # Pupuhi ai e te hau kapohia aku roimata. # Ka pioioi he tohu aroha haukainga. # E hoki mai ra # kia kite atu i to iwi e. # E rotarota ana # e katakata ana mai ra. # Pukana whetero mai i te ihi a o matua. # Kia kite atu ano i to ataahua ai kanapa ra. # Pupuhi ai e te hau kapohia aku roimata. # Ka pioioi he tohu aroha haukainga. # Pupuhi ai e te hau kapohia aku roimata. # Ka pioioi he tohu aroha haukainga. # Ka pioioi he tohu aroha haukainga. # Ka pioioi he tohu aroha haukainga. (MUSIC CONTINUES) # Pupuhi ai e te hau kapohia aku roimata. # Ka pioioi he tohu aroha haukainga. # Ka pioioi he tohu aroha haukainga. # Ka pioioi he tohu aroha haukainga. # www.able.co.nz Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. Copyright Able 2018 ALL: He mea tautoko na Te Mangai Paho.