Kei te whetu maiangi o te ao kiriata kua whakawhenuatia ` e kara, e Anzac ` te aunga o te moe ki a koe. Ko Mihingarangi tenei e tangi atu nei, e mihi atu nei. Welcome to The Hui, Maori current affairs for all New Zealanders. E taro ake nei... It was an ambitious plan to create a 620,000km2 marine reserve around the Kermadec Islands. The Kermadecs are one of the most pristine and unique environments on earth. But despite the support of mana whenua, a row over Treaty rights put a stop to it. It's an issue of broken promises, of people not acting with integrity and honesty. Now Ngati Kuri are proposing an even bigger sanctuary than before. It's around 900,000km2. But could a former fisheries settlement still end up dead in the water? And, making headway or making headlines? We catch up with the Minister for Regional Development, Shane Jones. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2019 Karahuihui mai. Tangaroa pukanohi nui! The Kermadecs Ocean Marine Sanctuary was meant to protect 15% of New Zealand's Exclusive Economic Zone from fishing. But politics got in the way. The body that represents Maori fishing rights ` Te Ohu Kaimoana ` took legal action, citing Treaty breaches and a lack of consultation, and the sanctuary wound up dead in the water. But two years on, the local iwi, who supported the sanctuary is doubling down. Ngati Kuri want a sanctuary even bigger than the Kermadec plan, and they're determined to achieve it. (SOLEMN MUSIC) To Maori this, is the most sacred place in Aotearoa. Te Rerenga Wairua, also known as Cape Reinga, is where the souls of the departed set out on their journey back to the spiritual homeland of Hawaiki. We're sitting on Atua Peruperu, and below there we have Te Aroha, which is a very special tree to us. She's like a Kaitiaki. Here is literally the place where, from east to west, many of our wairua come. And below Te Aroha, there is what we call the uma. The uma is the opening or the cave or the oven that wairua dive into and head out there ` you can see it ` it's Manawatawhi. Sheridan Waitai and her iwi Ngati Kuri are mana whenua here, guardians of this very special place. For us, as Ngati Kuri, it's who we are. So this is a responsibility. This place is being taken for granted by New Zealand and by our government. People haven't fully understood the significance of it. So we want people to enjoy it, but there's a way in which you can enjoy it by honouring that spiritual and cultural significance. We want to restore it spiritually and culturally to being the place that it originally was. Ngati Kuri's tribal rohe sweeps across Ninety Mile Beach, then north to the Three Kings Islands and across to the Kermadecs. Hidden away at the very tip of the North Island is a treasure trove of some of New Zealand's most distinctive flora and fauna. The only way to get there is via this rusty red road. After driving for a couple of hours up some pretty rough roads, we're here at Hikuroa, at the tip of the North Island, and I've come to this amazing little forest called the Bonsai Forest ` that's what the locals call here at Ngati Kuri call it ` cos nothing grows higher than about here. And right here is a stash of these shells which come from a snail called te pupu korari, or pupu whakarongotaua, which is just one of the many species that are endemic to this area. (blissful music) In 2015, Ngati Kuri's rohe became the centre of a political scrap, when John Key told the UN he'd create a 620,000km2 sanctuary in the Kermadecs. The Kermadecs are one of the most pristine and unique environments on Earth. When enacted, the sanctuary will cover 15% of NZ's Exclusive Economic Zone. But the Maori fisheries body, Te Ohu Kaimoana, took legal action, saying the sanctuary was a breach of the fishing rights agreed to in the 1992 Sealord settlement. It's an issue of broken promises, of people not acting with integrity and honesty. And the Maori party threatened to walk from government if it was passed. It's right in the end, because we've notified our president, and we'll have those discussions. But Ngati Kuri Board chair Harry Burkhardt said his iwi supported the sanctuary. Did you feel like you were absent from that conversation at the time? All the time. Cos we had the Maori Party saying that fishing rights would be extinguished. Yeah. But no one had heard from Ngati Kuri. Yeah, we engaged with Te Ururoa and Marama right at the beginning because their first gate was to talk to mana whenua. I made it clear what our position was, and then they took another position, which is fine. But they're not Ngati Kuri. The proposed sanctuary was shelved. But two years on, Ngati Kuri's desire to create a reserve within their rohe has only grown. You actually want to make it bigger? Yeah. So the current state is 620,000km2. I think if we hold hands with what Palau's doing, what Hawaii's doing, what Rapanui's doing... We see them as puna ora, so they are ways to heal the ocean, and if we are able to bolt those together, I think there is a better outcome, particularly at a community level. Ngati Kuri want to establish a new sanctuary. They call it Te Haumihi. And at 900,000km2, it would dwarf the earlier proposal. Tell us, what is the boundary? So we're looking at Te Oneroa-a-Tohe, which is our west coast, and it will go through here, and everything north of Te Paki will pretty much be in what we call Te Haumihi. And Te Haumihi goes from the west to the east, up around Rangitahua, down back around Manawatawhi and here again. They've already started to roll out the plan. A recent bio blitz was held to catch and record species, and they're planning a stocktake of their marine life. The iwi is looking at a dynamic rahui structure, where a no-take fishing ban will be applied wherever and whenever necessary. Te Haumihi ` what does it mean? What's the reality look like? Basically what we'll have is some type of pledge or agreement that as manuhiri, you arrive in here, there'll be no pollution. So they'll have to look at what waste they're bringing in, how they're using their bottles, what kind of rubbish they bring to our campsites. Also biosecurity risks. Yeah. So what we're looking for is a behaviour that is going to be more conducive to our environment and our land. (SOOTHING MUSIC) Scientists call this place an eco hotspot, and defending its biodiversity is in Sheridan's whakapapa. Kia ora, Nan. Hey, Nan. Her grandmother, Saana Waitai-Murray, led the Wai 262 Treaty Claim to protect flora and fauna. So the pupu whakarongotaua, which is what she always wore on her neck, eh, that some people refer to as pupu harakeke ` so that's the snail that listens for war parties. That's endemic again to here. And that is Ngati Kuri's kaitiaki. Her grandmother had said to her, 'E ko, kaua e takahia te mana o tenei taonga. 'Don't let them desecrate this taonga,' and that's the first taonga that went into the Wai 262 claim. In 2015 Ngati Kuri settled its land claims, with the Crown apologising for Treaty breaches. Their settlement includes joint decision-making over some aspects of the land. But kaumatua Kereama Neho says the power-sharing hasn't come easy. Ahakoa kua oti o matou tono whenua, kei kona ano etahi raruraru e pa ana ki a matou, me Te Papa Atawhai, me Te Karauna hoki. Ahakoa matou i whakaaro, ae, marika, kua riro katoa mai o enei whenua, kei reira tonu ratou e tohutohu mai ana, me penei, me pera, ahakoa ko matou nga kaitiaki, ko matou nga tangata whenua. When you work with those agencies who have... a view of how they roll out their 'power', for want of a better word, we've been really conscious about treating them as critical friends. So part of that is our relationship will be bumpy. Don't worry about the potholes, but be very very clear that as manawhenua, we have our own sovereignty, and that sovereignty will not be served by your government agency or the Crown. It's a sentiment supported by Kereama. Kei kona matou e... e tarai ana kia... kia riro nga kaupapa, ka haere e o matou whenua, ma matou ano, ma Ngati Kuri ano. Ehara mo wetahi atu a Te Papa Atawhai, Te Karauna ano hoki ` kahore. Na wai i teka no ratou i te tuatahi? Na ratou i tahae i te tuatahi. Ka tae ki te wa whakahokia mai. But other iwi say they too have interests in the Kermadec Islands. After the break, we speak to Maori fisheries boss Dion Tuta. We have to be mindful about the rights of all iwi in the Kermadec Ocean area. And Ngati Kuri stand firm. I've been really clear about why we are doing this. We have the mana to exercise over Rangitahua. The ability for iwi to exercise their own mana in their own area is paramount. Auraki mai ano. Earlier we heard Ngati Kuri's bold new conservation plan, which will see the flora, fauna and marine life of the rohe protected within a 900,000km2 sanctuary. It's a 20-year aspiration for the iwi, and while they are fully committed to it, it's brought up a number of confronting issues, including how they manage their own fishing quota. Ngati Kuri's tribal rohe is a triangle of islands with hundreds of thousands of square kilometres of ocean in between them. It's home to pristine fishing grounds. But with a new focus on the survival of the ocean, the iwi are asking themselves the hard questions. And I think what's hardest is people need to get around the perceived entitlement ` that fish is the commodity, but actually the environment is the commodity. Like,... do you want to breathe? So you might want to be protecting those ocean sanctuaries. Because if you don't have the right balance in that ecosystem, things die. There will be no fish. There will be no fish. Yeah. Although no iwi currently fish there, the 1992 Sealord's deal gave all iwi fishing interests in the Kermadecs. Those interests are represented by Te Ohu Kaimoana. And it was Te Ohu Kaimoana who took legal action against the proposed Kermadecs Sanctuary. Its CEO is Dion Tuta. Given the role of Te Ohu Kaimoana, which is to represent all iwi fisheries, how would you respond to iwi who are looking at aspirational ways forward, in terms of the environment, like Ngati Kuri, who want to set up a puna ora, or a sanctuary? Te Ohu Kaimoana wants to work with Ngati Kuri to understand what they're trying to do and help give effect to some of those things. Because we work for all iwi, not just one or two, we work for all of them ` so including Ngati Kuri. So we want to actually understand what it is that they are thinking, and maybe that could be a solution to some of the current impasse. But at the same time, we have to be mindful about the rights of all iwi in the Kermadec Ocean area. So how do you juggle or weigh up the rights of a collective fishing settlement with those of mana whenua who are looking to assert their rangatiratanga? The key answer to that, really, is through korero, and it has to be korero between iwi, because the Ngati Kuri world view of mana moana and mana whenua, that's valid for them, and it's not the place of Te Ohu Kaimoana to say whether it is or isn't. It just is. That's the Ngati Kuri world view. But at the same time, alongside that, by virtue of the Fisheries Settlement, all other iwi have interests there now. It sounds like Te Ohu Kaimoana is more willing to have this conversation with Ngati Kuri than you had been in the past, looking at, you know, a legislative process that the government was looking at. Would that be fair? I think it is fair to say that, because in the past it was a rear guard action fighting against the Crown. We should be very clear that we were never fighting against Ngati Kuri. Because I work for Ngati Kuri. And so part of my job is to help them realise their aspirations, just not at the expense of everybody else who I work for as well. Ngati Kuri chair Harry Burkhardt says iwi have to consider the long-term viability of our fish stocks, and that means taking a critical look at their own commercial fishing practices. From a financial point of view, fishing's 6% of our revenue; 8% of our balance sheet. There is a part in the fishing industry where we need to take an eco-systems view of the world. And if we were to trade off fish stock for environmental protection, we'd do it in a heartbeat. Ngati Kuri have been considering a tradeable system, where they could forgo their fishing interests, in exchange for environmental credits, similar to a carbon credits scheme. Would you support an idea like that? It's the first time I've ever heard of that. So I'm not aware of that idea. But I think those sort of innovative ideas are ones that we need to actually kick around the table and think about. And, you know, increasingly the world is getting more concerned about environmental management, and iwi all around the motu are concerned about the same things. We had the Maori Fisheries Conference a couple of weeks ago, and a big focus of that conference was on climate change, ocean acidification, plastics in the ocean. So coming back to Harry's idea, they are exactly the sorts of ideas that need to be thought of. Would you be interested in talking further with Ngati Kuri and the government about the credits? I'd be interested in talking to Ngati Kuri about it. Could it work, though? Carbon credits work, so we'd be open to that discussion around how that might play a role in terms of marine management, you know? It's definitely not giving up the rights to the fishing quota; it's a question to government whether they'd be open to looking at an exchange. The reckon they'd do it in a heartbeat. All right. Yeah. Well, I think, again, because fisheries are managed nationally, because they're being done in the deep water, it affects all iwi. It's definitely something Te Ohu Kaimoana would be interested in talking to Ngati Kuri about and maybe exploring with all iwi around how it might be a pathway to some sort of resolution of this ongoing issue. But I think it should start with iwi first, rather than going to the Crown. You know, formulating that idea between ourselves. Ngati Kuri, from what I've heard and what I understand of it, they're looking to take a real leadership position in this. You know, I imagine that they would not be alone. I imagine other iwi would want to think about how we can collectively, together, advance New Zealand's fisheries in a way that has an eye for, you know, long-term sustainability. (HAUNTING MUSIC) And that's exactly what Sheridan Waitai wants to hear. She says we must act with urgency if we're to win the race against time to save our oceans and the taonga within them. Island people make decisions for their islands, and mana motuhake looks like that for Ngati Kuri ` being able to make the decisions that are best for our moana, for our whenua, for our moutere. That's the authority that we have, and we should be allowed to exercise that. Hei muri i nga whakatairanga, ka korero ahau ki te Minita Whakawhanake Rohe, ki a Shane Jones. (DRAMATIC MUSIC) Ko Te Hui tenei te whakapaho atu nei. Well, there's been calls this week for New Zealand First Minister Shane Jones to resign over claims he interfered in a prosecution of a Northland trucking company. But the Minister of Regional Development doesn't look like he's moving anywhere. So is he making headway in his portfolio, or just headlines? He joins me now. Tena koe. Kia ora. Hey, just going back to our story, Ngati Kuri has a bold new plan for protection of taonga tuku iho. It's a 20-year-plan. It seeks to protect species and marine life. Is this the kind of environmental leadership you're looking for? Yeah, when I was in the Pacific, I had three years' privilege to be the economic ambassador. I dealt with the Palau government. I dealt with the Kiribati government. I dealt with a host of other Pacific nations that in the time of the Obama government, were seeking to create ocean reserves, and from what I'm hearing, it's an extension about what other Pacific leaders have sought to do. Yeah, it's bolting together what they call the puna ora to give the ocean an opportunity to replenish, I guess. Is it time to talk again about sanctuaries in this country? Yeah, I think that Rangitahua, the historic connection there ` and all the tribes, quite frankly, have it ` is through the Kurahaupo Waka, and the importance of that area is not to be underestimated. I think the mistake that John Key made, however ` it actually wasn't him; it was Nick Smith ` is they rushed it, and they created a lot of fear amongst all of the tribes, you might say, unnecessarily. But the Sealord deal was hardly 20 years old, and it was being unilaterally changed. And I think those are the issues that need to be worked through, and I'm quite sure David Parker, the Greens and my rangatira, Winston Peters, will work through them prior to the next election. I met with Te Ohu Kaimoana this week, and it feels` and they agree that they are shifting in their thinking on the sanctuary. They both ` Ngati Kuri and Te Ohu Kaimoana ` say, though, it has to be iwi-led. What are your thoughts around iwi leading a project, a puna ora, a sanctuary? Well, this is very much a long-term project, and I would encourage people to look at how long it's taken in the Pacific. And I will never agree with anything that unilaterally diminishes the rights that Maori surrendered in the Sealord deal. That just will never happen with my acquiescence. I know that Te Ohu Kaimoana needs to step up to the plate. I'm absolutely opposed to this proposal that Te Ohu Kaimoana be closed down and give all the money back to the iwis so they can squabble amongst themselves. That's just never gonna happen for as long as New Zealand First is around. And the notion that they should move forward with the iwi and create a better balance between commerciality and long commerciality is all ka pai, but know one thing ` the Kermadecs is surrounded by international fishing fleets. That's a bigger problem. Let's just talk about what Harry Burkhardt suggested in that piece. They want to take a critical look at their fishing practices we've been talking about. Fish stock for environment protection ` kind of a trade-off, a bit like carbon credits. Could you see that working here? Yeah, there are international models. It's called the Blue Bond. Small island developing nation states have explored that. In Palau, as Harry, I understand, has referred to, they've sought to basically outlaw shark fishing, and try and earn more putea from their tourism. I don't know all the details of it, but, look, I was impressed by what I saw with Auntie Saana's mokopuna, Sheridan. She has the mauri of her mother. Her grandmother. Her grandmother. I know that this is just an idea forming. When we talk about carbon credits, organisations who are big polluters can buy into them. Would you see, possibly down the track, we could be looking at a moana credit, and big polluters of the environment could buy the moana credits? Well... Maybe your mates at Air New Zealand, one of the greatest polluters? (LAUGHS) OK, what I would say is that there are international models. They're called the Blue Bonds. We've got some big changes happening in relation to climate change policy, but, look, I salute the next generation, with young Sheridan, and she's obviously bringing forward the wawata of her nana, and I don't wanna say in public anything that detracts from the mahi that she's seeking to bring about. Ka pai. Let's just move to energy. Last year you were on our show, we talked about Pixie Hepi Te Huia, who was a kuia in Taumarunui who pays a lines bill and a power bill. She's wheelchair-bound. She's ill now. She's not doing very well. Nothing's really changed for her. At the time you said there was an energy review happening, and it has been happening. There's some recommendations, and they kind of point to energy poverty, which would cover her. But is it enough? Will there be enough to change the behaviour of some of those companies? I suspect for the person you're talking about, probably not. The Energy Review, and the Future of Energy Administration, from my perspective, needs to involve fewer entities. The challenge for Tai Tokerau, the challenge for the King Country is that these are places that are sparsely populated, and they've got a lot of widely-spread distribution costs. Ordinarily, you'd cover those costs by bringing more regions together. Mm. So I don't want to say anything that worsens the prospects of that kuia, but obviously I don't feel happy that her circumstances have worsened. But therein lies the challenge. A politician can only dip so far into the bureaucracy or other organisations. You may have noticed I'm currently in white water over such an issue. Mm. Winston, your leader, did make some promises to that region. And I guess, for you, as Regional Development Minister, I mean, they've been talking about it's hard to even bring tourism and you can't even set up businesses, because there's this lines charge and a power charge. That'll be something you're gonna keep your eye over? Yeah. Nanaia Mahuta and I are actually taking a run-through Te Rohe Potae, and obviously that will be an issue that is front and centre when I get to the Taumarunui area. You've been in the headlines a wee bit lately ` allegations of conflicts of interest and the rest of it. How many jobs so far... been created? Well, in relation to the announcement we made in February, I think it's well over 500 jobs. But I would ask people to bear in mind that it's one thing to allocate the putea, then it's another thing to execute the project, and, um, I am surrounded by a bureaucracy that is insistent that various processes be followed, because after all, it's not my money; it's the public's money. And I stand by the figures of many thousands once the various projects are up and running. I mean, half a billion... thick and of half a billion has gone in Te Uru Rakau. Hundreds and hundreds of millions has gone in roads, in KiwiRail, and it just takes a while for these projects to get up and running, but they're focused on areas that have been neglected. Do you accept that you could've maybe left a few meetings ` ministerial meetings ` when you didn't? Like, for example, on the Footsteps of Kupe project? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, look, I accept to the telephone-boxful of people who worry about such matters, and they get unnecessarily windy. I` I` I will avoid a situation like that in the future. I hadn't appreciated that... it was going to generate the headlines that it did for the National Party. But from the perspective of the National Party, bear this one thing in mind ` the fillings in our teeth were falling out as we were going with the Prime Minister to Otamatea Marae over corrugated roads, and I was being criticised by my opposite member in the National Party as he gave the interview from the leafy suburb of Remuera and Epsom. So therein lies the contrast. My last question, Minister ` Air New Zealand has a policy where their staff can't wear ta moko. Do you agree or disagree? I don't agree with much of what Air New Zealand does. You already know that. Ka pai. Tena koe. Thank you for joining us this morning. Kia ora. Kua hikina Te Hui mo tenei ra. You'll find links to our stories on our Facebook and Twitter accounts, or on newshub.co.nz. Newshub Nation's next. Pai marire ki a tatou katoa. Nga kupu hauraro na Glenna Casalme. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2019