Today on Newshub Nation ` Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern halfway through her first term, is she giving us transformational government? We give MP Judith Collins five fast minutes to make her pitch on housing and on leadership. And the head of security for the European Union comments on New Zealand's cyber defences. Kia ora, good morning. I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. Emotional scenes in the House this week as the euthanasia debate continues. David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill has passed its second reading in Parliament by 70 votes to 50. It will, however, need to survive a high-profile third reading and public referendum, if it is to become law. It was also a week for reshuffles ` National's first ` after finance spokeswoman Amy Adams said she will retire from politics at the next election. As Justice Minister in 2017, she apologised to men convicted for homosexuality decades earlier and their convictions were later expunged. In an emotional resignation announcement, Adams spoke of missing her family during her 12 years in parliament. Paul Goldsmith will take on the shadow finance portfolio. And then it was the Prime Minister's turn. Phil Twyford was demoted, with responsibility for the troubled KiwiBuild transferred to Megan Woods. Kris Faafoi was promoted to Cabinet for the first time, following good performances across a growing number of portfolios. Well, the reshuffle comes as the Prime Minister passes the halfway mark in her first term. She came to power promising transformation and 100,000 houses. I asked her whether she's achieved as much as she thought she would have by now. And I think when we reflect back in the context in which we were elected... You know, we were talking during the election about some really significant issues ` everything from trying to make our rivers swimmable again to the need for investment in our hospitals that were mouldy, school buildings that needed to be built, and even, of course, the housing crisis. None of these were issues that could be solved in three years. They were 30-year problems. So those are the areas where you believe that you haven't got to where you want to go? No. I think probably what I'm` The context I'm trying to provide there is actually none of those things were ever going to be solved in a three-year term, and nor would we have expected them to. However, in terms of the progress we're making, an area where we would've liked to have seen a bit more pace would've been with the KiwiBuild programme. But keeping in mind, of course, that's only one element of what we've been trying to do in housing. We've increased the number of public housing places. State houses ` we've quadrupled the building there. We've invested in a homelessness programme we're now rolling out through the country. So KiwiBuild, however, is just one part of a much bigger plan. But you are disappointed in the pace of KiwiBuild; otherwise, you wouldn't have fired Phil Twyford from being housing minister. Well, that's obviously not quite how I would frame it. We have to acknowledge the housing crisis was an issue too big for one minister to solve. And I have credited Phil Twyford for the fact that we have quadrupled those state housing numbers, that we've seen 2000 public housing places and that plan around chronic homelessness throughout the country. But it is true; KiwiBuild hasn't met his expectation, or ours, but we are not giving up. So are you committing to trying to build affordable housing, like KiwiBuild is about? You are? Yes, we are, and that's an area that, actually, no government has attempted to do that before. And so there was no template for what we were doing around disrupting the affordable housing market, or the lack thereof. But it hasn't worked, so does that mean that you're going to have to change the model? What is the one instruction that you've given to the new housing minister, Megan Woods? Well, we've been looking at the entire KiwiBuild programme for a little while now. A bit of work's been done on the reset. We've now handed that over to the new minister so she can bring a fresh pair of eyes. And, of course, we've got a team now of senior ministers ` Kris Faafoi, Phil Twyford's still there, bringing the experience that he has, and Megan Woods. And I'm going to give her a bit more time to look at that ` not too much more. But the reset was promised in January. And the housing build programme hasn't stopped. So it's not as if everything paused while we did this work. No, but it's six months down the track. But the buildings continued, and we've been looking at the policy settings of KiwiBuild to say, 'What actually will help us pick up that pace and deliver what we intend?' Okay, well, one of those policy settings that the Greens want, and you've agreed to, is rent-to-own or shared equity. Is that going to be in this reset? That was actually one of the things that we said when we set up our government, when we were talking with our support partners, that we thought that was something worth looking into. But I'm going to wait for announcements till the reset is announced. We even said at the budget time that, actually, the things we wanted to invest in there, we were going to hold over for the reset. Is there not just one specific detail that you can give us about this long-awaited reset? You're not the first person to have asked me about it,... I'm still going to ask you, though. ...and I've given the same answer ` that the building programme continues. As I say, nothing has been held up there, but we are still working on making sure that we get those settings right. There have been a number of issues we've been identifying, and part that, actually, we've been trying to really put a product out there for first-home buyers. It's a very particular market. And they haven't been buying them, though. I mean, there's a lot of KiwiBuild homes that are still on the market. But that is not to say that there isn't still that need with first-home buyers. I think a lot of them struggle, though, with things like the deposit. So these are all settings that we're, of course, thinking about as we work on this reset. All right. KiwiBuild is probably a word that you probably don't want to use much anymore, because it's been a bit of a flop. Look, no, I have no problem talking about KiwiBuild. All right. Well, let's talk about another word that you used a lot when you came in - transformational. I counted it a lot in your Speech from the Throne. So, do you think you've been less transformational than you thought you could've been, coming in? No. You know what, I've always held the view, though, that if you genuinely want to transform the way that you do things or the direction of the country, if you don't bring people with you, then the moment that cycle ends or your term in office ends, it will all be undone. Transformation means making it stick, and it only sticks if you bring as many people with you as possible. Is it slower than you hoped? There are some areas where, of course, the wheels of government take a little longer. But, no, I'm still definitely on the path that I'd hoped this government would be. Take an example ` I'm particularly passionate about child poverty. We set ourselves goals to halve child poverty, and we're on track to do that. With the two budgets we've had, already estimated that 50,000 to 74,000 children will be lifted out of poverty from just those two budgets' worth of investment. That's the kind of transformation I want to see. You talk about the wheels of government; what about the wheels of coalition? I'm talking specifically about the capital gains tax. Scrapping that, have you betrayed your Labour base? I don't believe so, and I've certainly not had that feedback from people that they take that view. Did I believe in it? Yes. Still do. Are you personally disappointed that it's not through? Yeah, I was, I was. And I was open about that at the time. But MMP means, of course, that you bring together parties, and you're required to form consensus, and this was an issue that we just couldn't form consensus on. But I also had to acknowledge it was also an issue that Labour had campaigned on for multiple elections, and we just hadn't been able to succeed. So why did you go as far as you did in ruling it out while you are leader? That could be the next term. And you're so popular at the moment, you may be able to govern by yourself. Should you have done that? Well, look, as I said at the time, though, I wasn't just thinking about the fact that we'd failed on this occasion. We'd also failed in 2011, 2014. Each time, we'd taken a different approach. This time, we took the approach of trying to bring in experts, bringing in some other voices to the debate. And it came a point where I just had to listen to what the people of New Zealand were saying. So the people of New Zealand are out of step with the Labour voters and Labour supporters? Oh, no, look, I have to acknowledge, of course, that some of the views that I might hold, of course, because I've said that I've believed in it. I still have to listen to what people are telling us as well. That will happen. But I also hear that people want us to fix those elements of the system that they believe are unfair, and that includes things like multinational taxation, and those things are things we're addressing still. Okay. Do you think you've missed a chance to leave a legacy with this reform of tax, especially capital gains tax? My view ` if I can leave office having put in place a framework that means every government takes an eye to child well-being through what we've done with the child poverty legislation and that future governments have a framework for making sure that we take action on climate change and that we're on a path to meet all of our obligations ` that's legacy too. Okay. We'll talk about climate change in a sec, but are you angry at New Zealand First for sort of scuppering this? No. No, look, ultimately, they're elected by people who support certain policies, and they had held that position prior. I had hoped that time and that process we went through might've been able to change their position. It didn't. Winston was too stubborn, was he? It's MMP. You know? And that's the system that's served us well. Okay. Let's talk about climate change. Now, you described it as your nuclear-free moment. Yet we've got reports out this week that household emissions are going the wrong way ` they're up 20% in the last X number of years. It's higher than under the National Government. And it seems to be due to Kiwis' love of cars. And yet your government has done nothing about electrifying the fleet so far. That's actually not true. There is work that has been going on. It's not major. There's work that's going on, but in terms of what you have announced. Keeping in mind, of course, we have set ambitious goals and do have a work programme underway. Let's look at where our biggest area of contribution, of course, to our emissions profile is, unfortunately, basically, through our food production. That makes us unique. So we've put in significant investment into research to try and find those solutions to bring down emissions that are generated through agriculture. We've set a goal of being 100% renewable for our electricity generation by 2035. We're transitioning the Crown core fleet of vehicles to EVs, but also doing` When are you doing that? I'd have to check on the end date that we've got, but we've already started that. We're trying to move to hybrids and EVs at the moment. But, of course, you have to wait for your leases to come up. But also, we have been doing some work ` Julie Anne Genter ` on what we can do to incentivise Kiwis to pick up as well. Yeah, I know you've been talking about that work since the end of last year. And we've had a $70 million fund to, of course, put in the infrastructure. We need recharge stations, and so we've been doing that as well. But there's nothing in the budget this time around, and James Shaw and Julie Anne Genter have been talking about this electric policy since the end of last year. And it's not too far away now, but I'll leave it to the minister to announce that. But again, half of our profile is, of course, not through vehicular emissions, and I should add $14 billion is going into public transport and alternatives to using our cars to get around. That is the biggest investment you have seen from a government ever. Because it's one thing to say we need to transition to EVs ` EVs are expensive. That's true. We need, for instance, families to have choice, and public transport needs to be available. So you're worried about hitting the poor with an EV policy. I think we have to be realistic that an EV policy isn't the whole answer. We need people to have options around buses and trains. Yeah, but the productivity commission says one of the quickest hits would be electrifying the electric vehicle fleet. But, of course, we have to keep in mind the cost of that to individual households as well. So, of course, it's never a single option for us, and so that investment into those alternative transport options is really important too. What would you say to the schoolchildren that organised the climate marches this year? I mean, would you say you're doing enough? Well, I'd say, firstly, thank you, because we need to continue to highlight why it's so important that the government is investing in the way it is, and unless we keep having that continual pressure from the generations who are going to pay for it if we don't` So you welcome that pressure? I absolutely do. Our programme isn't complete yet. But keeping in mind the goals that we've set, some countries haven't even committed to 1.5 degrees, which is what we have, and also, Simon, keep in mind ` we, at the moment, have parties across the House supporting it, but that's not guaranteed. No. Now, I don't want what we do to be undone. Climate change cannot be on a three-year cycle. We've got to make it stick. You've just told us earlier in the interview that there are lots of work to be done. Yeah. And that you're not happy with the way that some things are panning out, like KiwiBuild. Oh, no one would claim perfection, I think, in government. Okay. So I've got a question for you ` should you be spending so much time on the world stage when things at home aren't done to your satisfaction? I think my question would be where would you say that I've done that? Most of the events that I attend are ones where there's an expectation that New Zealand is represented at, so` things that all leaders represent us at ` APEC, the UN General Assembly Leaders week. Davos ` do you need to go to Davos? Oh, Davos, I don't intend to go to any time in the near future. That was in January, at the end of the summer period. And you were there to sell the Well-Being Budget, basically, weren't you? Oh, at the same time, keeping in mind I also was in the UK. It was a chance for us` We announced at that time some of the transitional arrangements that will help make it easier for our exporters through the period of Brexit or otherwise. So using that time wisely, I also met with as many of my counterparts as I could within the EU, because we're negotiating our free-trade agreement. That is going to be the most valuable FTA to our exporters. I'm very careful when I consider the time I spend outside of New Zealand, because I'm very mindful it needs to be for the benefit of New Zealanders. What would you say to critics who believe that it looks like you're auditioning for a future job, maybe, on the world stage? I'm not interested in a job outside of just being the prime minister of New Zealand. It's a privilege to do it. And again, if Davos is your example, I would say even then, that particular event, I put in as much as I could for our exporters in particular, because that's my job and that's where my focus is. So you're committing to being` You're running as Labour leader at the next election and hopefully being prime minister. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Okay. So, I wanted to hone in on Oranga Tamariki. So, Melanie Reid from Newsroom had an investigation into Oranga Tamariki's attempt to take a newborn baby of its teenage mother. Did you see that? And what did you think of that kind of practice? I did not see that specific removal, but I've seen similar stories before. I was the spokesperson for children... So you didn't actually see that particular`? Not that particular rem` The actual footage of the removal, no, but I have seen other incidents like that in the past. I've been the spokesperson for children for Labour for a number of years, and this has been an issue that has been debated for a number of years. Should you have watched that? Because that's been in the headlines for the last couple of weeks. I know. I certainly know the circumstances. I know the case; I know the issues around it; and I know the theme that's being raised here. The issue that we have with child protection issues ` there are two. One is, of course, that no one wants children to be raised outside of their families. It's heartbreaking for the families and for the wider community. But also, no one wants the child abuse rates that we have in New Zealand either. Now, the State is always the parent of last resort, and it is not the best option. We need a system that prevents the State becoming the parent, and we are trying to turn that ship around. For instance, the 1st of July ` a whole new set of standards of care are coming in for Oranga Tamariki. We have an opportunity there. What I would like to see is us doing much more work and better work with the likes of Ngati Kahungunu to prevent children being uplifted in the first place, and that, I hope, will be the outcome of this particular case. Okay. Are you concerned that we're creating New Zealand's version of a stolen generation? Well, look, I've certainly heard that language used. I've heard that issue raised, and I think it is fair to say that we do have a disproportionate number of Maori in care. The numbers speak for themselves. The challenge for us is ` what can we do to turn that around? Some Maori leaders are saying, 'The model has not worked. No matter what you call it ` CYFS, Oranga Tamariki ` let's abolish that and start all over again.' Well, the one thing` And this is where I just wanted to throw in this ` the opportunity here is that that message has been heard, and that's why this huge amount of reform work has gone on, and it hasn't actually started yet. It starts very soon, and we won't be perfect from the first moment it begins. However, there are already opportunities within that for partnerships, for instance, with the likes of Tainui, where they have had hundreds of children who haven't been taken into care because of that partnership. We need more of that, and this is our chance to do that. Okay, let's talk about beneficiaries. Now, the Welfare Advisory Group delivered its report pre-budget ` three out of 42 recommendations have been adopted by the government, and its major one, which is increasing core benefit levels by up to 47% ` that's a no-go. Actually, a significant number of them are being progressed. The ones that we've funded within the budget, of course, have been making sure we have additional caseworkers, abatement is one of the recommendations they made, the removal of the sanction around` 70A sanction, yes. Yes, that's correct. And then, of course, we've also indexed benefits to wage increases, and so that is, the Children's Commission has said themselves, one of the biggest things you could do for child poverty. Okay, but the report said it needed, like, billions ` up to five billion ` and you've thrown nowhere near that money at it. Well, actually, I will give a moment of pause there. From the moment we came into office, the first hundred days, we put $5.5 billion into, for instance, changes to the families tax credit that goes to beneficiaries' family; we entered the energy payment, which goes to families on benefits; we've, of course, put in indexation and the sanctions ` that was hundreds of millions in the last budget. So when you take all of that, that is billions of dollars already. And all of that is the reason that we're now able to keep track of our child poverty measures, because they've predominantly benefited those who have been on low and fixed incomes. So, have you done enough there? Does that mean there will not be benefit raises? There is more work to do, and we've acknowledged that. We're now working through some of those additional recommendations. But the work isn't complete. We never said it was, but we have said it will take time. Okay. Finally, so you're halfway through ` bit over halfway through the first term. How would you rate your leadership out of 10? Oh, no, I never answer that question. Why not? Because I'm not the one who has to decide whether I stay or go. Voters make their decision. And I will always be my own worst critic, and that's probably as it should be. It means that I'll keep driving harder. Prime Minister, thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Right. If you've got something to say about what you see on our show, let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram ` NewshubNationNz. Our twitter panel this week is business consultant Tim Mcready and former mayoral candidate Mark Thomas. They're using the #NationNZ or you can email us at nation@mediaworks.co.nz. The address is on your screen right now. But still to come, our panel on the government's year of delivery, and the pitch ` Judith Collins on housing and her take on new housing minister Megan Woods. Welcome back to our new series, The Pitch, in which a member of the Opposition sells their ideas in just five minutes. Fresh meat for Judith Collins this week, with Megan Woods just 48 hours into her new role as Housing Minister. Given the chance, how would Collins run the portfolio and the hotly anticipated KiwiBuild reset? Political reporter Jenna Lynch started by asking her whether she will miss working opposite Phil Twyford. I'm sure Phil and I will want to work together. You're not finished with him yet. No. Do you count him losing Housing Minister as a win for Judith Collins? Well, I hope it's a win for the public of New Zealand, actually. He's not the first minister who's been shifted to greener pastures. How do you think you're going to go against Megan Woods as your opponent? Oh, I think it'll be delightful. What's the difference in style going to be? I just treat everyone the same. I think Megan Woods does have a tendency to get a bit angry, and that's always a delight for me. We're expecting a KiwiBuild reset any day now. What do you expect? I expect there'll be a KiwiBuild retreat. I expect it'll be probably something around the lines of building more state houses. So, it's 2020; you are Housing Minister. What happens to KiwiBuild? Well, it goes. I'm really clear about that. The KiwiBuild policy was never going to work, and anyone who knew anything about the industry would understand that. Does that mean that you're not going to build houses, then? The National Party will not build houses for people? Oh, no. We're not going to do KiwiBuild. KiwiBuild's a dog. The whole policy's bizarre. I think it's really important to build housing for state housing; I also think it's important for community housing. I think what we need to do is to absolutely sort out RMA and urban development and planning design ` making it faster and also cheaper to build ` and at the same time, bringing in more competition around building products, around standards, and also work out a way in which to get more housing around transport hubs. That's something that Phil Twyford and I would agree with. And you look at, say, Dominion Rd in Auckland, where Jacinda Ardern and her big trolleybus is going to go down. The Auckland Council development arm, their own apartment block got turned down on that same route, because apparently, it was going to change the nature of the place. This is the nonsense that goes on at the moment. It stops people being able to buy houses or get houses built. The RMA is there to protect the environment. Is this you p`? Yeah, but it doesn't, though. It doesn't. And I'd say this to you ` is our environment better now than it was 30 years ago? Answer ` no. It doesn't tend to protect anybody. It is now used to stop developments. We have developers who complain about other developers. Why? Because they want to sell their subdivisions before the other ones. This is the sort of behaviour that's going on. Yeah, but you had a long time for RMA reform, and you could never get it through. You had the majority with Act between 2008 and 2011; you didn't do so. What makes you think you can do it now? It should've happened then. And one of the problems was ` close to an election, all these sorts of things. We need to actually go into the election with a very cohesive and full plan on that. So are you saying if, for instance, the Greens wouldn't support RMA reform, you would give your support? If we believe it is the right thing for New Zealand, yes, absolutely. Labour acted very poorly on this issue in Opposition, primarily, I think, because they didn't think they'd ever get into government. They are now there, and I'm saying if you want to talk about this, you want to include us, do what Shane Jones has done. Shane Jones included us in the Infrastructure Commission development. Why? Because he's not stupid. So, have you got an idea for Collins-Build, then? I wouldn't be so presumptuous to say that. I think more like Nation-Build. Nation-Build, OK. There are legitimate housing problems, though. Yeah. Would you call it a crisis? I think it depends. If you're in Auckland and you are trying to get a house and your first home, it's most likely a crisis for you. Rent to Buy was a UK policy brought in by Margaret Thatcher, one of your political idols. Oh, I know. Isn't it wonderful? It must be good. Is that something that National would ever contemplate? Absolutely. In Opposition, we should be always looking out to see what else should we be doing. I'm a big supporter of a concept around Rent to Buy, and we've done these before. What would be the biggest difference that people would notice in housing under a National government? We'll get stuff done, for a start. Things around the workforce, for instance ` construction businesses are telling me they can't get construction workers at the moment because we're losing so many to Australia and it's very hard to get construction workers in through Immigration New Zealand. We don't have anti-immigration feeling in our party. We are not a party that hates people who don't come from New Zealand. So from our point of view, we're going to be looking at what we have to do to get stuff done. Is housing the portfolio that you would want in government? I want whichever portfolios I have, and that's always been my attitude. Surely Prime Minister's more your cup of tea, though. Oh, I'm very happy doing what I'm doing. Do you think that Simon Bridges is the right person in this party to be prime minister, or is it more suited to you? Oh, I think he's been chosen by the caucus, and so I absolutely support him to do that. And I'd much rather see Simon Bridges in that role than somebody from the Labour Party. Do you think he can win you the election? I think we'll all win together and he will do his bit to that. There's a team that we have, which is enormous` But you want to be leading that team. No, I don't. I'm happy to do my job. I'm very happy doing what I do. This week I've had an example of the prime minister now putting up three different ministers for me to deal with. Well, thank you very much, Prime Minister. It's a compliment. Up next, our panel, with the best and worst of politics this week. Plus how does New Zealand's cybersecurity measure up? The commissioner of security for the European Union weighs in. Welcome back. I'm joined now by our panel ` Mike Williams, former Labour Party president; Jason Walls, political reporter for the New Zealand Herald; and Marg Joiner, partner at the SenateSHJ. Thank you for your time this morning. Mike, first to you. Phil Twyford demoted ` was it his fault that Kiwibuild is` and so far not fired? No, I don't` I don't think so. Look, I have to admit ` Phil Twyford is a personal friend of mine. He's had setbacks in the past, and he's bounced back before. He hasn't lost his position in the pecking order, and he's picked up economic development. He'll come back from this. But Jason, Jacinda Ardern had to do something, and it had to be Phil Twyford, didn't it, to save face over Kiwibuild? Oh, something had to happen. And to be honest, what she's done is she hasn't completely given up on the government's housing initiatives. What she's done is she's put in place a team of ministers. Megan Woods is competent. She's a good, safe pair of hands. She's brought Kris Faafoi on to that team as well, who` it was inevitable that he was gonna be promoted to Cabinet this week as well. And let's not forget that Twyford actually isn't completely out of the housing picture. He's still doing a lot of the urban development stuff, which is something that's very important when it comes to housing in New Zealand. So I'm with Mike; I wouldn't count him out just yet. But something did need to give. You look at` Yeah, it was` As they say, it's the optics, isn't it, that somebody had to go, something had to be done. But Marg, you've got a point that Megan Woods is not actually the first choice ` is that right? Well, I think not necessarily the obvious choice. The obvious choice, perhaps, was someone like David Parker, who's Auckland-based, and the fact that he didn't take it says something about the enormity of the challenge here, perhaps. And let's see how they go with this new approach. The last government failed, and they had three ministers, so let's see how the five go. (LAUGHS) And, yeah, I guess the other thing that was quite a surprise for me was the strength of the apology from the prime minister. Mm. I mean, this was unequivocal admission of error on a cornerstone policy that she campaigned on. She used the word 'fail', didn't she? She used the word 'fail'. She used the word 'own it'. She was explicit. So that was a surprise for me. She used the word 'mistake' previously too. This is unheard of. (LAUGHTER) And it's quite clever in terms of taking the wind out of the opposition's sails. However, they're now in a bit of strife if this also fails. Where do they go from there? Well, let's just talk about the opposition briefly. Judith Collins, Megan Woods ` what do we think about that match-up? Jason? Oh, I'm looking forward to it. (CHUCKLES) I mean, I love watching Judith Collins in the House. She's a standout performer. And Megan Woods, as I said before, is a competent set of hands as well. So watching them spar in the House is gonna be fantastic. I'm really interested to see how Collins actually handles this new set of ministers, and how that works with her line of questioning in the House. But any way you look at it, I mean, Collins is always ready for a fight. Well, she's taking it as a compliment that she's got five to deal with now, Mike. That's right. But what I noticed about that interview is she again avoided endorsing Simon Bridges. Ah. Yes. Does that every time. Yeah. (LAUGHS) Well, it's a team. It's a team, isn't it, Mike? Let's just carry on briefly with... with housing. The reset, Marg ` I mean, they've been promising, what, since January? And we still don't have it. So it's a bit of a vacuum there for the opposition to play into. Yeah, and I think Kiwibuild was always more about ambition than fact-based policy. And at the risk of sounding like a bureaucrat, I think what may be missing here is some serious planning and policy work; in place of that has been political strategy. But in saying that, it does give people hope. So, I had a taxi driver recently who said it's his only hope in terms of getting a home. So I think, remembering this is still a first-term government ` they're only 18 months in; they do have some more time ` I think people's natural inclination will be to give them some more time. All right. Let's talk about that word ` 'transformational'. In her speech from the throne and Grant Robertson's early speeches, I counted it 19 times, OK? And now she's using things like 'good progress'. Jason, is she stepping away from that? Well, I think 'aspirational' is a key word that I would use for this government. I mean, Kiwibuild was aspirational. 100% renewable energy ` aspirational. In terms of transformational, I think that's something that history will judge. If you look back in 10 to 15 years' time, maybe 20, down the road, then you'll be able to say, 'Jacinda Ardern's government was transformational.' So it's a little bit harder to say it now, and I think she probably might be getting a little bit of wind of that and saying, 'Hang on. I might have jumped the gun a little bit by saying "transformational",' because 'transformational'... I mean, it's huge in New Zealand. It's not like New Zealand is in a position of political strife where we need a big turnaround. I mean, things are going OK. So to be transformational in that sort of sense, it's always going to be a challenge. It's a big ask. But what government has transformed anything in 18 months? Yeah. Oh, well, you're saying it's a short time frame. One thing that they haven't transformed is the capital gains tax, Mike. I mean, she's put that to bed, and she's promised not to do that while she's leader. Why has she done that? Has she missed an opportunity there to transform the tax system? No, no, I don't think she has; I think she's admitted reality. I would point out that the Clark-Cullen government had nine years to introduce a capital gains tax and didn't do it. It's a third-rail policy; it's very easily misinterpreted by the public, and it shouldn't be touched. And the Clark government knew that, and I'm not quite sure how this reared its ugly head in the Labour party again. (LAUGHS) And I'm glad to see the back of it yet again, and I'm delighted she said 'it's not gonna come back on my watch'. Well, it can't come back at all. I mean, if Jacinda Ardern, who is one of the most popular politicians in New Zealand for a long time ` I mean, you've got John Key; you've got Jacinda Ardern ` if she can't get a capital gains tax across the line, who can? Well, that's right. So let's talk about Jacinda Ardern's political capital. I asked her whether there was a commitment to run in the next election. Marg, you're not surprised by the answer, are you? Not at all, no. (CHUCKLES) But what I did see in that interview is a strong sense of frustration coming through from her. Oh. So, um, frustrated ambition. I think she's wanting to do things quicker, and the wheels of government aren't turning as quickly, and that's helped probably by the coalition. So the wheels of coalition are being` Mike, they're hamstringing Jacinda Ardern's ambition? To some degree, yes. But I would actually agree with what Jason just said. This government could well be reviewed in history as transformational, if only because there's been a sustained attack on entrenched poverty in this country. Now, I work with offenders and prisoners all the time, and these people are actually seeing some hope because of what this government's been doing in their attack on poverty. And the point Jacinda keeps going back to is moving kids out of poverty. Well, that is really happening, and that is transformational for many people. Do you think that's, uh, enough for middle New Zealand, though, Jason, coming into the next election? Well, she has put in place the poverty targets, and the Wellbeing Budget embeds a lot of that in as well. So time will tell, again, on that issue. But it's... Poverty is something that touches everybody's lives, even if you're not directly affected by it. I mean, New Zealand, we have a poverty problem. We're trying to address it, so any government that tries to get on the right side of that, they're gonna be welcomed by middle New Zealand. Simon, short answer to your question is that this is a party that is now 13 points ahead of where it was on election night, and that is heading towards a win. OK. We'll have to leave it there for the moment. Thanks very much to our panel. OK, up next ` the EU security chief on emerging threats and the state of New Zealand's cybersecurity. Plus ` why do government agencies insist on phoning clients that they know are deaf and can't use phones? Mike Wesley-Smith investigates. Welcome back. The European commissioner for security, Sir Julian King, was in New Zealand this week. His mission, to urge New Zealand to collaborate more on cybersecurity. So I asked him about lessons learnt during the recent European elections. Well, we obviously were concerned in the run-up to the recent European parliamentary elections that somebody ` external or domestic ` might seek to interfere in those elections by spreading disinformation or divisive content designed to radicalise the debate. As it happened, I'm glad to say that the elections passed off successfully. The turnout across Europe went up. There wasn't a spectacular attack; there wasn't a big hack and leak, like we saw a few years ago in the United States. That does not mean that it was a disinformation-free zone. It absolutely wasn't. So you mentioned the allegations against Russia in the 2016 US elections, and we've got an election here next year. I mean, how likely do you think it is that we will face that kind of disinformation attack here? It's not just Russia, but Russia have got a track record of this kind of activity. They talk about it in their military doctrine. The Russian playbook has been picked up by many other actors as well. Who are these other actors that you talk about? Well, in the European case, we've mapped examples of disinformation that come sometimes from outside, from, in our case, pro-Kremlin sources; sometimes from domestic actors within some of the member states. One of the key elements in combating this kind of disinformation is to have a really effective partnership with the social-media platforms. Are you confident you're getting that kind of cooperation from the major players in the social-media arena? On this question of tackling disinformation and increasing the amount of transparency there is in political debate, we've got good cooperation from the big platforms. Over recent months, they've set up in Europe political-ads libraries; they've opened up to greater scrutiny. There are still some real issues about the amount of bots and fake accounts that are active, spreading political disinformation, and we've said to them we really need to crack down on that and go further. The kind of map that you say that you've developed leading up for elections, have you shared that kind of intelligence with the New Zealand Government? Have you given them some advice on how to make our elections secure that way? Well, I haven't given particular advice on that. One of the reasons I'm here today is to say that we are open to strengthening our security dialogue between the European Union and New Zealand. Now, I mean, you talk about that cooperation. Can I just look at the Budapest Convention on cybercrime? Now, New Zealand is the only Five Eyes partner never to have signed that document. Should we be concerned about not being part of that? Well, what I can say is that the European countries support the Budapest Convention. It is an effective framework for reinforcing cooperation against cybercrime ` be very welcome. You also have an interest in counterterrorism and described terrorist content online as deeply damaging. So we're currently having a debate here about the line between free speech and hate speech. Where does that line lie for you? We've deeply committed to freedom of speech in Europe. We're deeply committed to avoiding anything that would count as censorship, but if something is illegal ` illegal online as offline ` then you can police it. So we have a legal framework for policing child-sexual-exploitation content. We're in the process of defining a legal framework for terrorist content that would allow us to police it. That, for me, does not impinge upon freedom of speech. But the EU is a key supporter of the Christchurch Call, that Jacinda Ardern was in France for. You have proposals to go further ` some mandatory measures. I mean, what are they? So as I'm saying, we are a very keen supporter of the Christchurch Call. We're a very keen supporter of reinforcing cooperation with the platforms to tackle some of the harms, including the harms that are related to spreading violent extremism online. Our experience is that you can reinforce that voluntary cooperation with regulatory and legal frameworks if you can agree them, if you can agree the definition of terrorist content that you are going to police. Isn't that the problem, though? So we're in the process of doing that at the European level. Whether you can do that more widely internationally is a bit more of a challenge, which is why it's very important, at the same time, to establish this framework ` this strengthened framework ` for voluntary cooperation. One of the other issues that you're dealing with is the advent of new technology, like 5G networks. Now, the US has banned Huawei from being part of the US, sort of, technology culture, but the EU has not. So why not? This technology is going to be so central to the way we live our lives ` not just as individuals but the way we organise our societies and our economies ` that you have to put security at the heart of that decision-making. That's what we're doing in Europe. We're going through a process between now and the end of the year to look at the risks, what might be done to mitigate those risks and to reach a collective decision on whether there are some risks that it's really very difficult to mitigate. But in your position overlooking security, have you seen any evidence that these Chinese companies or the technology that they have can be used by the Chinese government to spy on the EU? It's a matter of record that Chinese suppliers operate within a Chinese legal framework which has certain conditions about cooperation with the Chinese security authorities. That is a matter of record, and it's one of the elements that we will be looking at. OK. New Zealand's most recent Defence Policy Statement describes cybersecurity here as a set of 'challenges of a scope and magnitude not previously seen in our neighbourhood.' Does that sound realistic or scaremongering? No, I don't think it's scaremongering. I'm afraid to say that cyber is... brings huge benefits; our interconnected world ` that's huge benefits. But it also brings new risks and challenges, which is why it is so important that, through international cooperation, likeminded countries who are defending shared values work together to deal with those challenges. The UN Secretary General said last year that he's convinced the next great war will begin with a massive cyberattack. That sounds alarmist. I wouldn't have used those words, but I repeat that we have to take the cyber challenge seriously, which is why it's so important that countries like New Zealand and the European countries have these kind of dialogues and deal with these different challenges. OK, Sir Julian, thank you very much for your time. Thank you. While the prime minister breaks ground with her use of a deaf interpreter, some of her government departments still phone clients they know are deaf and can't use phones. As a result, people have been removed from crucial waiting lists. Here's Mike Wesley-Smith with his investigation. Stacey Cuff is a regular at his local gym. He lives with cerebral palsy, is profoundly deaf, but none of that stops him having a good workout. All right, let's crack on with the warm-up. Stacey is on the social housing waiting list, but communication has never been straightforward. The person you hear speaking is Rebecca Henwood, Stacey's support person, who helps a lot of deaf clients. This is a passion for me, so I advocate a lot for people whose rights aren't getting met. Rebecca and Stacey routinely interact with Ministry of Social Development staff who know Stacey is deaf but still try to phone him. MSD says it does have a team to respond to deaf people via text or email, and it assists on average 470 people a month. But Stacey says this hasn't been his experience. Because he didn't pick up the phone, Stacey says he received a letter warning him he could lose his place on the waiting list. When I rung and asked, 'Well, why are you calling a deaf person?' 'That's our system; that's our process.' Like many government agencies, MSD can also be contacted by deaf people using the Relay service, an organisation that offers free communication options like video calling and speech-to-text. But for some, the service doesn't always work. I love the Relay service. What I don't love is that government departments don't use it, necessarily, in the way of... using it to make the phone calls. Sign language is an official language of New Zealand, now utilised by the prime minister. But her example, Rebecca says, isn't always followed by government agencies. Deaf people are still struggling. Deaf people like Sonja-Mary Batten, who is on the public housing waiting list and also gets called on the phone. So when I go into the office to ask what's happened about a house, 'Oh, but we've rung you several times and you haven't replied.' I said, 'Because I haven't heard the phone ring at all.' No texts to say, 'Hi, Sonja.' They know I'm deaf. I have told them. She's currently in public housing but sought a transfer through MSD after she had knee surgery. And I had to go to the doctors and ask for a letter to get me a transfer to a flat place. She later learned her failure to pick up the phone saw her removed from the waiting list. Frustrated, upset and discriminating. MSD has since apologised and is working with Sonja-Mary to rectify her situation. Natasha Gallardo is chief executive of the National Foundation for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing. I think it's excluding a person with a disability. So if... You are discriminating against them in a sense that you're not enabling them to communicate with you. She says with more than 880,000 Kiwis living with a hearing loss, it is essential social services are accessible to everyone. Certainly the call centres, if they have on file and they know that that person has a hearing loss or is deaf, then in the first instance they could certainly send a text message... (TEXT ALERT CHIMES) ...to say, 'Hey, we're trying to get in touch with you. 'What's the best way to communicate with you? Do you need to organise a Relay call? 'Let's do it together. What time suits?' Peter Knight is another deaf client that Rebecca helps. He now lives in a Housing New Zealand flat, which he loves. He's enjoying it? Yes. REBECCA: Double thumbs up. Absolutely great, yep. But Peter is an example of why it is so important deaf people don't lose their place on waiting lists. He only got this property after he and Rebecca made more than 100 unsuccessful tenant applications in 18 months to uninterested landlords. They have a huge amount of choice. And with that choice, it's often, 'OK, that's hard. That's harder than I can deal with.' And like so many deaf people we spoke to, Peter says he's only able to effectively communicate with government agencies with the help of an unpaid advocate like Rebecca. It's something he says robs him of his independence. REBECCA INTERPRETS: It's hard for me. I get... Communication. I need communication. Mandy Mullane is another person Rebecca works with. A couple of years ago, Mandy discovered she was on the wrong benefit, which then took more than two years to get corrected. Why did it take that long? This included a meeting alongside a deaf interpreter at Work and Income's Henderson office, where Mandy says a worker got angry at her. The office manager later apologised. And Mandy is now able to communicate with a staff member at the office via text message. But being yelled at, Mandy says, left her rattled. Rebecca says government agencies need to employ more interpreters at their offices. For me, I think having a member of staff in each branch that has an understanding of disability. And according to advocates for the Deaf community, social services need to get their act together, because the number of people with hearing loss in the future is expected to soar. So, we started screening year nine students at two high schools in Auckland as a starting point. And we've started to uncover alarming levels of hearing loss in young kids in New Zealand. Natasha Gallardo says one of the leading causes has been the increase in the use of earphones with personal devices by young people. At one particular school, we've seen levels of up to 30% of the kids that we've screened have been referred on for further investigation. And if they are left with permanent hearing loss, like Stacey, they'll need social services to both see and hear them and their aspirations. I want a flat of my own one day. I want my own house. That's my dream. MSD provided a statement in response to our story. It says MSD apologises for not providing the level of service its clients expect, and says it wants to make sure all its clients get the right service. It says it expects to receive 5000 inquiries from deaf people this year, up from 1100 in 2015. Stay with us. We're back after the break. Welcome back, and we're back with our panel ` Mike Williams, Jason Walls and Marg Joiner. Thanks again for your time. Just quickly on the Prime Minister. She didn't watch that Newsroom video of the Oranga Tamariki attempted taking of the baby from its teen mother. Jason, do you think she should have? I do. I absolutely do because it was a story that dominated news headlines ` and you said this in your interview with her ` for about a week and a half. And not only was it very prominent in the news media, there have also been four different reviews and inquiries launched into the child uplift situation. And for her to be the Minister of Child Poverty Reduction, this is a very important area of that as well, and she made the case that, listen, there is always a reason for a child uplift. And a lot of the reasons` We don't hear about. Yeah, we don't hear about and we don't know` A lot of that is because of the court case. But still to be completely across a situation like this because ` and we do this in the press galley ` ask her about anything. Yep. And we do, and something like this, which is very, very, prominently in the news media, of course we're going to ask about it. So I thought that probably watching it ` although it probably would have been quite confronting, it's still something she should've done. Can I just move on briefly to the other reshuffle of this week. The National Party's surprise departure from Amy Adams this week. Was that a surprise for you, Marg? No, I think this is usual. It's the changing of the guard, the party renewal. I would like to say that she has made a contribution to the party over the 12 years, a really important one, and to the Parliament, and should be acknowledged for that. But this is something you see. The party renewing, refreshing and moving on. Would she have seen the writing on the wall in terms of leadership ambitions, Mike? Yeah, I think you could regard that as a party crumbling in opposition too. I mean, Amy Adams did not fire as spokesperson on finance. She was out-classed heavily by Grant Robertson on every occasion, so it didn't really surprise me that she was going. And also there was another one went to Alistair Scott in Wairarapa, but neither of them, I noted, are going immediately, which kind of tells you that National really is living in fear of by-elections. But they do have people like Paul Goldsmith, don't they, Jason, to step into the finance breach? How's he going to go? I think he's going to do well. He has been` Well, I'm happy that he's going to be there, but I'm also a bit sad that he's not going to be questioning Shane Jones any more` (ALL LAUGH) ...because that was my favourite part of any question time. Oh, I think he'll still be questioning Shane Jones. I mean, they're two fantastic orators. It's just like watching two thespians spar in the House. It's fantastic, but, I mean, Mike's right. Going up against Grant Robertson's hard because not only has he not put a foot wrong, the economy is still doing quite well, and there's really nothing much for a finance spokesperson to dig their teeth into at this stage. I mean, when Amy Adams first started she was rallying against the government on debt, which is ridiculous. We have the lowest debt-to-GDP in the developed world, pretty much. So not much to get the claws into. Now, Judith Collins didn't find out that she'd lost infrastructure until, actually, one of your colleagues told her. Is that right, James? Yeah, he was on the phone to her, and he started laughing, and I was like, 'What's wrong?' 'I just told Judith Collins she wasn't getting the infrastructure portfolio.' So we had a good laugh about that, yeah. So that was well handled, Marg, by Simon Bridges? Yeah. Well, I mean, it's an interesting relationship, there. I guess the thing about, and Mike would agree, I'm sure, that you never know with leadership. It never should be taken as a given, so at the end of the day, that'll be an issue for the caucus. And I'm sure they'll be thinking about that, and I don't think Simon Bridges will be taking it for granted. But for now the party line is that he has the confidence of caucus. But I'm enjoying watching Judith Collins. Well, she's talking about it, 'I'm a team player. I'm a team player.' But she doesn't actually say, 'I'm a Simon Bridges supporter.' No, she won't say that, but the other thing, and I think picking up on Mike's point about how they're doing in opposition, they must be buoyed by their polling. It is quite extraordinary for an opposition party to still be that high. Labour certainly wasn't when their leadership was in tatters. So there's this persistent narrative of a leadership that's not doing so well, yet they're still doing as good as the government in the polls. Right. Do you buy that, Mike? No, I don't. (ALL LAUGH) I think there were clashing polls, and I actually think that the Newshub poll was correct. Of course you do. Yeah. I think National has slipped below the 40%. The reason that their vote hasn't collapsed is because there's no real alternative. The three parties in government are the place where that could go, and, you know, National's holding up, but that's really the only straw that Simon Bridges is hanging on to. I mean, 95% of people don't want him as Prime Minister, and that means most of his own party support don't want him as Prime Minister. We'll see how that space plays out. Just briefly, Jason, you're in parliament this week for the second reading of the End of Life Choice Bill. We saw quite a lot of emotion. Oh, we did. And it was really quite theatrical in the House because so often with government votes they're just ` they're kind of boring, in a way. A government introduces a bill, we know it's going to pass because it's government, they have the support. Opposition has a member's bill; it's probably not. But this one ` it was always an element of mystery, you know? We didn't know what was going to happen. We didn't know what the numbers were going to be. And we still don't because MPs are changing sides all the time, aren't they, on this one? And we saw Judith Collins with that speech, she flipped from no to yes in that very emotional speech, and watching them go out the 'yay' or 'nay' doors, which doesn't happen unless it's a conscience vote, it was about 9.30 at night. We were all sitting up there watching. Journalists were peering over the top to have a look at Trevor Mallard's sheet with who went where. And it's going to change again. We're just out of time on that, so thank you very much to the panel today. But as we said, passionate scenes in the House this week as the politicians across the political divide debated the controversial End of Life Choice Bill. It was a chance to see a more personal side of some of the politicians. So here's Finn Hogan with the week that was in parliament. For one night this week, everyday politics was put to one side. My mother is dying, and when you watch my mother, if you've watched her, and some people in the House know her, you will understand how tough that is. Deeply personal stories shared by MPs of every party. I've talked to many people about this issue, and it's troubled me for a long time. And this year I have been very troubled by it because I have felt that, having been opposed to it, that I was on the wrong side, and I am on the wrong side of it in opposing it. I'm the right side now to say that everybody deserves some dignity in their lives. In a House usually divided down party lines, parliament instead stood united by the gravity of the decision before them. Perhaps not since our parliamentary predecessors voted in this place in 1961 to abolish the death penalty have members of parliament had to make such a serious life-and-death decision. But despite the seriousness of the subject, there was still some space for laughter. Mr Seymour may be occasionally extremely irritating` (LAUGHTER) Extremely. But that does not mean to say he does not have very genuinely-held beliefs, and he has showed utter commitment on this. While this controversial bill may be a long way from becoming law, one thing that cannot be argued is that its effect has already been profound. And that's all from us for now. Thank you for watching, and we will see you again next weekend. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2019