Today on Newshub Nation ` Phil Goff versus John Tamihere. Auckland Mayor and mayoral hopeful battle it out in a live debate. National's new finance spokesman Paul Goldsmith on measuring up to heavyweights like Joyce, English and Cullen in the crucial portfolio. And behind the scenes with Marama Davidson. We head home to Manurewa with the Green Party co-leader. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2019 Kia ora, good morning. I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. A short, sharp shock for the Government this week as business confidence dropped to the lowest point since the global financial crisis. A quarterly survey by the Institute of Economic Research found nearly a third of firms expect economic conditions to deteriorate. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern called the figures 'a snapshot of opinion.' Google has apologised to Justice Minister Andrew Little over its name suppression breach in the Grace Millane case. This came after he released a stinging message on Twitter, reminding the tech giant of its own unofficial slogan, 'Don't Be Evil.' Google has also suspended some elements of its subscriber news service, Google Trends, in New Zealand. Little praised the move and said further work needs to be done to uphold justice in the digital age. And landmark findings on Maori health this week ` a new report from the Waitangi Tribunal has highlighted racism in New Zealand's health system and called for urgent action. On average, Maori have the worst health status of any ethnic group in New Zealand, and this has been the case for 20 years. All right, so, one's a former Labour cabinet minister who is the Auckland Mayor, and the other is a former Labour cabinet minister who wants to be Mayor. And this week the gloves came off, with John Tamihere revealing he would partially privatise the city's water services, which Phil Goff called 'dumb'. Both candidates join me now. Thank you for your time this morning. Phil Goff, first to you. You've had one term. What's your biggest achievement? I think bringing forward the cleaning up of our beaches and harbours. It was going to take 30 years; we'll now do it, probably, in the next nine years, making our beaches safe to swim in. I'm going to give you two, actually. OK. The other one is the biggest-ever budget for investment in infrastructure in Auckland's history, $28B, of which I secured $18B from central government. Do you think that you run the risk of not being seen as a transformational mayor but just a pair of safe hands? No. I think I'll do both. I want to transform Auckland, make it a better place for us, our kids and our grandkids. Am I a safe pair of hands? Of course. I've got the experience, the skill and the integrity to do the job. OK, John Tamihere, imagine that you have beaten Phil Goff. You've had one term. How do you think`? What would be your biggest achievement? No, no, I'd be after three terms, but` Is it going to take three terms to get an achievement? Well, it'll take three terms to fix the mess, but... Yeah, right. The first one is to open up the books and balance the` rebuild the city's balance sheet. That's very important, because we can't tax and rate our way out of this and our development. The biggest outcome for me at the end of three years would be a realignment with central government, where the central government balance sheet comes into play a lot more. OK. Do you think that's the kind of thing that voters are going to be looking for? That's pretty, you know... Oh, no. That's book stuff. Yeah, true, but here's the thing: there's a package and a suite of policies that I've been announcing on the way through to this, and when the election proper starts, you'll get the key point behind all the lead-up to this. And so once that key announcement is made, you'll know right then. OK. You've been in public life a long time, and you've had some controversial moments over the years, haven't you? You would admit that? Yeah, of course. OK. So, are you going to get yourself in trouble in this campaign? I don't know about that. We'll just see how it plays out. What I will tell you is at least we've got one ` at least we've got a contest of ideas, and at least Phil won't sleepwalk to victory with just a 38% vote. We need more Aucklanders out voting. Are you the kind of candidate that's going to appeal to such a diverse city? Well, I'm quite a diverse guy, if you have a look around. I'm Irish, I'm Catholic, and some people say I'm Maori. But the point is, that level of diversity` I come from a family of 12 children and all the rest of it, so you're a sum total of many things. Sure, but are we going to see comments like you've made before, like 'front bums' and the Roast Busters scandal and things like that? Well` Or are you able to keep it under control? No, no, let's get this right. We all make mistakes, right? I've been in the public eye 35 years, but I've worked the street, OK? I'm not an extension to the bureaucracy like Phil. (LAUGHTER) Absolute nonsense. No, I've worked the street. Yeah. And when you work the street, of course you have your ups and downs, right? I own them. So you've really changed? I've learned. You learn better from your mistakes. OK. Did you ever apologise, John? You'd know that, Simon. Did you ever apologise? OK, just` That's the question. Apologise for what? For the Roast Busters thing and all of the other comments ` the 'front bums' thing. You know, that was pretty misogynistic. It was insulting to people. You know, you've been invited to apologise, John. Have you ever done it? Yeah, that's true. It's true. Have you ever apologised? So he owns up`? You've owned up. Have you ever apologised? Of course I have. See` Have you? Well, I'd like to hear you. I've never heard it. I want to talk about matters of substance, and you want to talk piffle. I'm talking about integrity. I'm talking about the way you're ramping rates up and driving people to the WINZ offices. OK. OK. No, no, no, you can't let a statement like that go. We've had the lowest rates increases of any city in New Zealand. I'm going to come to rates in a moment, Phil. And he talks about ramping them up. 11.5% on` OK, gents, gents, gents, I've got one more question before we get to that kind of thing. To both of you ` so, we've seen in election campaigns past that skeletons have been sought and searched for. So, to both of you, have you got anything you want to get rid of right now ` defuse, own up to ` before the election proper? (LAUGHS) We're both Catholics, so this is a confessional. Yeah, a confessional. Yeah, I've been in public life for 40 years. I've lived in the goldfish bowl. I've never had anything raised about me that challenged my integrity, my trustworthiness or my reliability. OK. John? I've had my ups and downs. I'm not perfect like Phil. (LAUGHTER) I never claimed that. But I'm not as great. Talk to my wife. All right. OK. So, nothing`? We're not going to be surprised by anything coming up? OK, that's an awkward pause there. No, not from my side. OK. All right, let's talk policy. If you could give the voters something right now, Phil, about policy for the election, what would it be? It's to make progress on the increasing congestion on our streets caused by 40,000 extra people coming into our city. Will there be new policy about that in your campaign? There'll be new and ongoing policy. The big thing ` you have to find the money to invest, and I've found that money. I've worked cooperatively with central governments of both political colours, and we've got that money, and we're making progress, but it's hard to make progress given the rate of growth that our city is going through. And do you have anything new to announce at the moment? Oh, not on your program today, but there will be new stuff. All right. John Tamihere, I'll give you the same opportunity. Anything new? Oh, yeah, of course. The elephant in the room has always been funding out of central government and levering off central government balance sheets, and the way in which Phil was part of a government that has locked us into a bit of a straightjacket on policy in regard to funding local government up and down the country. We have to break out of that. So, for instance, today what I'd say to you is GST on rates must stay in the city. (CHUCKLES) I've announced that policy already, John. Now, the rates` Well, how much is the rates that you're collecting at the moment? The rates are 38% of our overall revenue` No, no, how much? Oh, I'm not going to pull a figure out of the air. No, no, it's 1.7 billion, and you've got to know the money. It's 38% of our total revenue. You've got to follow the money. So the net result is` I'll come back on that. Yeah. Well, what is`? It's $255M that should stay in the city. 270 million, actually. 270. Right, but you're both agreeing on the GST question ` that GST should stay` No, no, no, no, no. But I'm going to make it happen. See, he's had three years` (LAUGHS) No, no, hang on. He's had three years. Sure, you are. So I'm pitching up to say that I will take on` I'm not a puppet to central government. I didn't go down to Wellington and come back with 11.5c a litre for petrol that hammers the poor. Right, so you want to get rid of that? He did. So you want to get rid of that targeted fuel levy, do you? Well, I don't want` Are you going to get rid of it? I don't want discrimination on Aucklanders only. No other city and no other region pays it. He signed us up to it. So if I get the mandate, you can then go for a renegotiation. OK, so, I need a right of reply on that. Yeah. I've said I don't know how many times ` I've probably said it on your program ` that every time Council levies a dollar on rates, the government puts another 15 cents on and keeps it. Yeah. And I've said to Bill English and I've said to Grant Robertson that's not fair. That money should come back. It's worth 270 million ` you were pretty close, John ` 270 million, and that is a way in which the central government can devolve funding to local government, and on a per capita basis. So, that would make a huge difference so that we're not going cap-in-hand to Government, saying, 'We want this funding.' In Australia, the federal government devolves` Why didn't you get it done? Why didn't you get it done? No, no, no. I didn't interrupt you, John, so don't` But why didn't you get it done? Hey. OK. ...devolves a percentage of GST down to state government that does the infrastructure. All right, so you have asked for it and you haven't got it. Yeah, but` And I will keep asking for it. I'll keep demanding it, because it's the right thing to do. So what makes you think you can get something done that he can't? Oh, because he's` As he said, he's a perfect guy. He's never made any mistakes. He's never tried anything. That's not actually` No, no. There's a negotiation` That's not what I claimed, either. There's a negotiation on here, and the negotiation is simply this: if Aucklanders give me the mandate on that policy, there is a general election on the following year. And the leverage` Right, so it's a matter of timing. It's a matter of timing, and it's also` the Prime Minister happened to come not to the Prime Ministership directly but by way of a constituency seat in Auckland ` in Mount Albert. Yeah, OK, all right. And let me just say, I've had 15 years as a cabinet minister. I know what gives you the ability to change central government. And I know going down there and banging your fist on the desk and demanding things isn't, because 65% of New Zealanders don't live in Auckland. And what I was able to do is go down there on the Auckland Transport policy` Then surrender again. You surrendered on us. ...and get $18B, $18B out of central Government` Show us the money. ...for the next 10 years to invest in transport. That is my achievement. And do we have to have skin in the game? Of course we do. Does John's running mate ` did she say that regional fuel tax was what she'd fought for all of her political life? Yes, she's totally in favour of it. And John, you won't tell me whether you're in favour of it or not. She's` Well, so that's a good point. Your running mate, Christine Fletcher, did say that she wanted a fuel tax. Yeah, that's right, cos Phil came back, like` Phil came back, like, with a deal that he'd cut down there with his mates. Now, here's the other thing ` there's no business case around why he chose 11.5 cents. There's no business case around that. So, what we've got to do is we've got to` Yes, there is. We're approaching $4.4B for our transport investment, without which we would be able to do no new projects. That's the case, John. That's the case. No, no, that's your headline. And that's what I promised at the last election, that's what I've delivered. And do every other council in New Zealand want to have access to that sort of funding? Of course they do. If you didn't have the Transport Levy, if you didn't have the fuel tax, how are you going fund these projects? No, the fuel tax will come out of central government leverage. (LAUGHS) Now, hang on, let me just explain this. Dream on. There's a range of tools we will need. One of them is to up the contribution from central government. You can't go down to Wellington and believe that Auckland has no leverage and no negotiation capacity any more. The narrative to that has put us where we are and has to change. Phil will surrender it. So` Not surrendered it at all, actually. I have got more out of central government than any previous mayor, not by banging the table, but by putting forward a proper argument, a proper business case, and the argument that for New Zealand to succeed, Auckland has to succeed, because we're 35% of the country. OK, let's find out who's got the most pull over central government soon, depending on who gets elected. That's right. Let's talk about rates, OK? So, you just accused Phil Goff of ramping up rates, and yet he says that he's got` ...lowest increase in the country. Yeah, hang on. He delivered 2.5% in his first term, and he's promised 3.5% hereinafter. Yeah, no, no, he'll ramp rates up 18%, right? How? Well, cos you just do the numbers ` 2.5, 2.5, 2.5, 3.5. So that's cumulative, right? So year after year. Yeah, well, of course. It's death by 100 cuts with this guy. Just nonsense. Here's the thing ` with rates, it's not just rates. What about the 11.5% Goff Gas Tax? Yeah, no, hang on, what about` You haven't told us what you're going to do with it yet. What about Auckland Transport costs going up 10%? What about water going up? What about refuse going up? (LAUGHS) Well, that's rich. That is really rich. There's a whole bunch of stealth taxes that this guy uses, and then gets you to focus on the general rates strike. OK, my response to that ` But you do have a lot of targeted rates in place. Yeah, I'll come back to that in a second. What he promised this week was that he was going to privatise Watercare by 49%. That's $5B worth of assets that he's going to sell off. The investor is going to want a 7.5-10% return on that. That will push the water rates up of every Auckland household by $200-300 a week. So, you're saying you've done that calculation? I've done that calculation, and what's more, the people that are going be hurt by that are, first of all, the large families ` cos when you've got kids, you use more water ` and they're the families already struggling with mortgage and rent, and it's going to hurt most of all the low income families, because the water rates are a higher percentage of their income. So, that's his promise ` pushing up water rates by $200-300 a year. So, go. You asked me where I was getting money from, right? So you're going to privatize stuff. Well, it's a partial sale. Privatization is what he did when he sold Air New Zealand, Telecom and everything else. We all know that. Let's talk about the current examples. We bought Air New Zealand back! He understands privatization. I understand releasing value out of a balance sheet without privatizing it into the private sector. So that's what I've done. That's what I've said in the ports as well. Yeah, sure. Is there anything else you're going to sell, John? So, let's explore this. It's not selling ` it's releasing good value. He gets not one cent out of Watercare last year. Yes, that's right, because we don't take a dividend, and a private investor would. And that's why every New Zealand household, every Auckland household will have their water rates go up by $200-300 per year. That is the question to John Tamihere. Will water rates go up as a result of the partial sale if the investor wants a return? Water rates will go up, not to the extent that he says. Because of this policy? What will it go up by? Hang on, Phil. Because what'll happen is` Because what I'm endeavouring to do by rebuilding the balance sheet in this city is to smooth the pain, rather than rock up the rates all the time and the stealth taxes. What will the water rates go up by, John? So, what we've got to do` We won't know that, Phil, until we get the final sale. You haven't done the figures on it? You haven't done the business case yet? No, no, I've done the business` You've made the promise, but you haven't done the business case? Hang on, Phil. Phil. Phil, don't be silly. The issue is, is spreading the balance sheet weight so it doesn't all come in and bear in on the bottom side of town, which he did with the Goff gas tax. It keeps coming back at him. Right, OK. So, are you going to release value in other places, as you call it? The Ports of Auckland operations. Is there anything else going to be on the block in the Tamihere campaign? No, no, not apart from the leverage we're going to get in the negotiation with central government. And I keep coming back to that ` that's actually the jewel in the crown. Unless we can crack that one, we're just playing in a contaminated little sandpit, and won't go anywhere. OK, I want to ask about your position on cars. You basically say that the Goff administration, as we call it, is anti-car. But you don't have any policies, really, to deal with the congestion, do you? No, I do, and I released part of that as part of my ports policy. Here's the problem with AT ` go to my website, 'jtformayor.co.nz', people, and what you'll see is a video of his design champion telling` What is your policy? Tell us the policy. OK, PPPs will start to fund park and rides. See, you can't make war on motorists unless they can segue into some form of public transport. And there's not enough public transport for them to segue to. Furthermore, because of that, mothers with children have to get to the supermarkets, they have to get to care facilities and they have to get to work. Now, you just can't continue to make war on them if there's not public transport availability. OK, so, a quick reply. A quick reply to that is we're not making war on motorists; we're saying to motorists that the more people we can get out of their car and into public transport, the lower the level of congestion in this city. So, what are we doing? The City Rail Link, that'll double the capacity of heavy rail. Busways, you know, we know what's happened on the North Shore. We now have 7.5 million passenger trips a year, people coming from the wealthy North Shore. Where are the rest? The Eastern busway, we've just started that for an estimated $1.4B. That'll make the difference for transport. Gentlemen, I really appreciate that we have lots to talk about, but I have run out of time. I know you guys have got more to say. But if you guys have got something to say about what you see ` about these guys ` let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram ` NewshubNationNZ. Our Twitter panel this week is Lewis Holden and Josiah Tualamali'i. They're using the hashtag #NationNZ. You can email us at nation@mediaworks.co.nz. The address is on your screen. Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time. We'll be hearing from you again during the year. But still to come, we dissect the week's political news with our panel. Plus National's Paul Goldsmith on his big promotion. What kind of finance minister would he like to be? Welcome back. Robertson, English, Joyce, Cullen, Douglas ` some of the well-known names of finance ministers past and present. And now another wants that job in the future. The recently-promoted National Party finance spokesperson Paul Goldsmith. So who is he? Does he have what it takes? Paul Goldsmith joins me now. Thanks for your time. Tell me, what qualifies you to look after the country's finances? Look, I think I've got a good sense of what makes an economy tick. It's largely the result of the hard work of the many people across the economy in the private sector. But also having a government that has a clear plan, clear sense of what works and what doesn't, shows competence in the way that it manages its part of the economy. Sure, that's everybody else. What about you? Well, my background is one` I actually spent my professional career writing about the New Zealand economy and businesses that have been successful coming out of the New Zealand economy. So I've spent, really, most of my working life thinking about what works for the New Zealand economy, and I've really been working towards this opportunity to make a difference. Right, so you've written nine books. Are you an observer or are you a doer? Well, a bit of both. One of the last people I wrote about, Alan Gibbs, once told me, 'Paul, when are you going to stop writing about people and get out and do something yourself?' And that was one of the things that got me into politics, and... yeah. So what have you done in that decade in politics? Well, I've been seven and a half years in Parliament. I was Minister of Commerce. Worked very hard about bringing in good quality regulations to improve the confidence that New Zealanders have in conduct of financial markets. I was also Minister for Tertiary Education and Employment, where we worked hard to increase the opportunities for Kiwis to get ahead. So since you've had the job, which is a just a short time, you've talked about the economy slowing down under this government, and you've given figures of ` it's gone from 4% to 2.5%. How accurate is that? Well, we peaked at 3.9 in 2019, as the governor of the Reserve Bank has said. Most recently there was a sharp decline in the New Zealand economy in the second half of 2018 during this time of government. Yeah, so the last time we hit 4% was in 2015 under National. Well, 3.9 is pretty close to 4 in most people's understanding. So what we're seeing is a slow-down. The only point that we're making is that, actually, when you think about it, New Zealand should be doing well at the moment. We should be booming. The rest of the world wants our goods, our terms of trade are at historically high levels. So we should be going well, and instead, we're slowing. And Jacinda Ardern and Robertson will say, 'It's Donald Trump's fault. 'It's the Iranians. It's the rest of the world.' And they're not taking responsibility for their own actions. So first of all, if you're going to be in charge of the books, accuracy is important. Correct? You would acknowledge that. Secondly, 2.5% is what you're talking about. It's better than the OECD average of 1.8%. Yes, but on a per person level, it's very slow. We've still got very high immigration in New Zealand, and so that's the main thing propping it up. That was the critique of the previous government, they said that we were relying on higher immigration. They were going to stop it. Well, of course, like everything they've promised, they haven't done it. So immigration is the thing that's propping up the economy. Well, under your watch immigration was very high, wasn't it? It was high, but we still managed to have per person growth at a reasonable level. Our per capita productivity in New Zealand is way less than everywhere else in comparable OECD countries. And that's one of the great challenges we've got as a country is to lift that productivity, and that would be very much my goal, if I got the opportunity. So tell me, as finance minister, what is the first thing that you would do? Well, the first thing is to outline a very clear and understandable plan to how to grow the economy. And there's no one simple thing. There's many, many things that you have to do. And that's having a clear plan to invest in infrastructure. Improve the amount of investment coming into New Zealand, by not having overly-restrictive rules like this government's brought in. Having access to natural resources. You know, one of the craziest things this government has done is that oil and gas decision, where effectively we're saying, 'We're so rich that we don't need to look for oil and gas 'in this country.' There's only two countries in the world, that I can find, that think that, and that's New Zealand and France. Then we've heard just lately from Eugenie Sage, 'We're so rich, we don't need to look for gold.' So all those sorts of things. Having access to those resources, having good-quality schools. There's a whole suite of things that you need to do. Secondly` Those. Sorry. Yes, secondly. Secondly, as well as having a clear plan, you've got to demonstrate competence. And that takes time. You can't do that on day one. You've actually got to demonstrate it, and that's part of the reason why confidence is so low in this government because they've demonstrated incompetence in the way that they've carried out` Well, let's talk about a couple of things that National wanted to do. You were going to introduce $1000 worth of tax cuts. That got rescinded by the incoming government. Would you re-instate that, if you were finance minister? Well, yes. What the leader, Simon Bridges, has indicated ` cut it slightly differently ` suggesting that we adjust the tax thresholds for inflation. Which you have to do every year because if you don't, then the tax man takes a little nibble every year because thresholds stay the same, and incomes rise. And so that's an important signal that we're sending, that we're not going to take more tax than we need to, and actually we'll manage the place carefully. But less taxes means less to spend. Right? And more taxes means less money for New Zealanders. But you acknowledge that there is a big hole in infrastructure in New Zealand, and you wanted to spend $32 billion at the last Budget over a certain number of years. Where are you going to get that money from? You going to privatise some more stuff? Well, there's a bit of a combination of` You can borrow money for good-quality investment in infrastructure, which is what we've done over a long period of time. It's about getting the investments right, and we can talk about the quality of the infrastructure decisions this government's been making, which I don't think has been very good. Then you have strong surpluses. This government, of course, inherited very big surpluses as far as the eye can see. I'm worried that we're not going to get the same thing when we come into power. We'll probably end up with deficits, and we'll have to work hard. And then you have to be innovative about how you attract capital, and I think that's part of the mix as well. Okay. You've just heard John Tamihere and Phil Goff talking about partially privatizing Watercare up here. I mean, is that the kind of thing you favour? Well, I think they're asking the right question. Well, Tamihere's asking the right question. We do have a lot of infrastructure to build. So we do need to be innovative about how we bring private sector capital in. I mean, they're going to have the big debate in the mayoralty. We'll get a good sense from the public of whether they think that's a good idea or not, and we'll take note of that. All right. So let's turn to the next election. So if National gets elected, will you have stood as National's candidate in Epsom? Well, that's something for the leader of our party to decide. I've always done what's best for the team in Epsom, and I'm very happy about that. But I've always, of course, lived in the electorate and made sure that the people there actually end up with two MPs, and I'm as out-and-about and as active as I can be. How do you feel about that position now that you are a senior party spokesperson? Do you think it would be embarrassing, basically, to be Act's political puppet going in to the next election? Well, I've never been Act's political puppet. Well, you certainly have in the election stage. It enables` If you don't campaign in the election where you live, it means that David Seymour gets in. The thing I get asked most often is, 'Who are your mates? Who are your partners?' And we've got one partner in the Act Party. That's worked pretty well for us, and there were two elections, which I came in, in 2011 and 2014 where National got back with a one-seat majority. That's how MMP works. It's a funny system. I never voted for it. I don't like it, but that's what we've got. Well, if you don't like it, why do you support it? Well, it's what we've got. Well, why do you support it within your party? Wouldn't you` Well, MMP is the system that we've got. OK. Wouldn't you as a finance spokesperson, a senior figure in the party, demand your own electorate? Well, the point is, in MMP, it's the party vote that counts. So we're` It's a credibility issue for a finance minister. It's a crucial role. Well, you might it's that. That's something that Simon will be working his way through over the next few months when he decides what our coalition partners are going to be. I'm based in Epsom. I've worked hard. It hasn't` The fact that I've been a list MP in Epsom hasn't held me back so far, and I don't think it will hold me back. You don't find it a little bit humiliating? No, I don't. All right. If you are the finance minister, after the next election, having stood in Epsom or maybe Botany. Would you like to stand in Botany? Well, not really. It's not my focus. I live in the Epsom electorate, and that's where I'm always based. OK, so you beat David Seymour in Epsom. If you are the next finance minister, who do you think that you would be like? Would it be Joyce? Would it be English? Cullen? Everybody's got their own style and approach, and we've had some good finance ministers in New Zealand history. I think Bill English did a very good job. Big part of the role is to provide confidence in order for people to invest. I was talking to someone before, and they said, 'Why should we care about business confidence?' And the point is, that when you think about it, where do you get your jobs and opportunities? How do Kiwis get an opportunity to get a good, high-paying job and get ahead? Well, it's about somebody, somewhere, putting their hands in their pocket and making an investment. You know, to either start a new business, buy a new plant, hire a new person. And they're much more likely to do that if they feel confident about the state of the economy. One thing that the government can usefully do is provide a stable, predictable environment where businesses do feel confident. So that's a big part of what government's about. We are a small country. Surely the global headwinds of the global economy are what determines how well we're going, and that is the major factor on confidence. No, it's a bit of both. It's always a bit of both. Yes, yes, international factors do have an influence, but when we were going very well as a country two or three years ago, everybody was predicting the EU to break up. I mean, there's always uncertainty out in the global environment, but there's also a factor in domestic. The Reserve Bank, everybody acknowledges there are domestic uncertainties. The most obvious one is 18 months of uncertainty about the capital gains tax. Who's going to make an investment if they don't know if they have to pay a capital gains tax? So for 18 months, there was a whole period where people were nervous. Well, now you don't have capital gains tax, you don't have any weapons in your armoury, do you? There's plenty of other things. I mean, the industrial relations exchanges are freaking out business people all over the country. There's a whole raft of things that are making people uncertain. Nobody's quite sure whether their industry will be the next one that ` they wake up one day, like oil and gas, and the Prime Minister's decided, 'Oh, we don't need you anymore. 'We'll take that off the table, and we don't need that. We don't need this.' And they expect that we're going to keep growing. All right. Just really quickly, you're the newly-minted finance spokesperson. What have you got that's new for the voters? Well, it's a combination of things. We want people to understand where National has always come from, which is being careful with your money, not taking more than you need and spending it wisely. My contribution will be a particular focus, I think, more on trying to reduce the cost for New Zealand families. We've been very good about increasing their income` When will we see policy about that? Over the next few months. We're not going to give it all away yet. We're 18 months from an election, but in the next election year we'll be coming out with some good policies that will make New Zealanders think. All right. Paul Goldsmith, National Party finance spokesperson. Thank you for your time. Thanks. Coming up ` our panel, Ella Henry, Matthew Hooton and Susie Ferguson. But first, Green Party Co-Leader Marama Davidson at home in Manuera with her newborn granddaughter. Welcome back. How well do we really know our politicians and the personal values and experiences they bring to decisions that affect all of us? Our new series Backstory goes behind the scenes into the lives and homes of our political leaders. And first up, 45-year-old Green Party Co-Leader Marama Davidson takes us home to Manuwera in South Auckland to meet her newborn granddaughter. Hey. Yes, that's your baby. Yes. (BABY GURGLES) I know. (BABY COOS) I know. You love talking to Nana. And having a smile. Yes, you do. Kia ora, morena my moko. SINGS: # Kei te pai koe. SINGS: # Kei te pai koe. SINGS: # Raya Bella Ray # Raya Bella Ray. # Ka rehe raru. # Ka rehe raru. # Ko wa e tangi. # Ko wa e tangi. You know our song. That's our song. Another thing to miss every time I go away. (LAUGHS) Someone else to miss every time I go away. Parliament is trying to make things a bit more family friendly, and I was very fortunate to be able to take some time off to help my daughter and my son-in-law, and get her established. She is an example, again, of what I wish every new baby was born into. Just lot's of people to help and support. And even then, it's still exhausting. It's still exhausting. She was straying along the Manuwera streets with another completely unconnected stray dog that looked like they did not belong together at all. And my daughter was hanging out the washing on the line, and called this beautiful puppy. And the puppy ran into her arms as if that was her mother all along. And we put up notices, contacted local council, SPCA, pound, everyone. Tried to find its owner, couldn't find its owner. So we went through the process of making her ours. And she's been a faithful, beautiful addition to our family ever since. And I was like, 'Ew, how can people have their dogs in the`? That's disgusting.' This one, she's allowed on my bed. (LAUGHS) It's like, that's so wrong. Dogs don't belong inside, they certainly shouldn't be on your couches. And, 'Oh, people who let their dog on their bed, there's something wrong with them.' I'm, seriously, I'm like a reformed racist. I don't often get the chance to stop and appreciate all of these photos. But, um, well, family, really. You've got some wedding photos, goodness gracious... Coming up to 20 years, now. Most definitely the best father in the whole entire universe. And I'm really grateful for him holding down the fort. I can't do my job without knowing that everything at home is OK. And, you know, my husband and my wider family are to thank. My community, actually, are to thank for that. And I really` Well, they're all important photos. But this is my homeland ` my papa kainga in Hokianga. Whirinaki. It's where I grew up. It's where I learned about community collectively caring for each other. That's where I learned about living off the land, and my Aunties and Uncles being incredible gardeners. That valley, honestly, you can grow anything on it. You know, I'm so grateful that the people who are still keeping that place warm for us. That's what I am grounded on, is, sort of, the politics and the collective connection to our land and our ancestors, is, you know..., what I'm so privileged to have. When I became an MP, of course, that shot me immediately into a whole different level of privilege. And we were able to move here, to a house that is warm and healthy. And there's 8 of us here in this house. My children are, quite simply, without a doubt, the most fantastic human beings on the entire planet. (LAUGHS) They are the coolest! If there's one thing that I want them to understand ` the issues facing the world and how they can be a part of the solution. This house means a lot to us. And we're renting it, and we're very lucky to be able to hold down a comfy home. But it makes it even more special, because we're OK, actually. And a lot of people aren't, and that's my work, is trying to change that. (LAUGHS) When I, um, sat down and gave quite a deeply personal interview on that time in my life as a 9-year-old, and thinking, like, 'Oh, that's deeply personal. What have I done?' Over-exposed, and because for the most part, my family didn't know. You know? But... (SIGHS) I'm really glad I did. (SNIFFS) And... Especially because my dad rang me and said..., 'I know who it was, and I didn't know what had happened, and I'm really proud of you.' Yeah... So, I just felt myself thinking, 'Wow... 'I wish every kid had this... sort of love from your parents, and support.' The wider issue, um, I'm just one of the many voices to have helped the world and the country... have a little bit more of an understanding of what happens, and that the silence is how this..., is how abuse continues. The isolation of the people carrying it on them, on their own shoulders by themselves is how it continues. And so, if we can help each other feel safe to reach out, then that's how we will eliminate abuse from our families and homes and our communities. Right, up next, our panel ` Ella Henry, Mathew Hooton and Susie Ferguson on the best and worst of the political week, plus, the Government's biggest cyber-security announcement in years flew under the radar a bit this week. We have our analysis next. Welcome back. I'm joined now by our panel. Matthew Hooten, Managing Director of Exceltium PR, Ella Henry, senior lecturer at AUT, and Susie Ferguson, co-host of Radio New Zealand's Morning Report. Many thanks for all your time this morning. Matthew, first to you. You've seen a few political debates in your time. What did you make of Goff v Tamihere this morning? Well, just a little bit scrappy by both of them. I think that what people probably don't understand fully, if they're not in Auckland, is just what a disaster this city is. That this city is rapidly becoming unliveable. And... business-as-usual type so-called leadership is not going to fix it. Which is what Phil Goff is promising, no? He is basically a mid-level bureaucrat, and Auckland is constantly, election after election, get faced with a choice between someone who is definitely hopeless and somebody who is probably hopeless. And who is that in this instance? Well, I voted for Goff last time on the grounds that he was probably hopeless, but in that time he's proved himself definitely hopeless. So it does seem to me, we're going to have to give Tamihere a crack as mayor of Auckland because somebody has to change this policy gridlock of constantly waiting for reports. This city is a disaster. Right so, Susie, you'll be happy that you don't live here, then. I will be, by the sound of it. If it sounds as bad as it is or if it is as bad as it is ` that is not a good situation for Auckland to be in. Clearly, when it's partly an economic powerhouse, that it is. But the other situation is, it's a difficult one for Phil Goff to be saying, on the one hand, 'I'm a steady pair of hands.' And I'm also transformative. Those two things don't usually go together in, certainly, in the three-year election cycle. Which is what he just said he was. (LAUGHS) It is hard to argue that, if you look at, actually, what's happening, how fast things are changing ` or not changing. Ella. I mean, would you agree that we are not transforming as a city up here in Auckland? Well, the perspective I have is very much as a Maori living in Auckland, particularly as Matawaka. I'm not from the tribal areas. Unfortunately, records show that Maori are not really active participants in local government elections, and I think that the issues raised here suggest that we need to, as a community, as a cohort, be more politically active. And I think maybe John will bring that to the table as a Maori candidate. It's been a while since we've had one. He's very high-profile. He's got a media profile. And he does galvanise attention. This mornings interview, I thought, was shoddy because they just talked across each other, and it was very hard to find real, meaningful issues that they could make a positive statement on. But it'll be interesting to see whether John's` But isn't` ...being in the system is actually going to galvanise more Maori to vote. Do you think, Susie, that the performance this morning was really a tactic to raise the profile on both ` to get them out there, otherwise these elections just sort of flow past everybody. Well, people are always less interested in local body than they are in general elections, so you're on the back foot from the starting point, but John certainly does galvanise attention, as Ella was saying. He, sometimes, is controversial not for the right reasons. Mm, yeah. That's right. As you pointed out, but to be fair to him, he is coming to the table seemingly with an agenda, with a plan. It'll be a very interesting one to watch. I just want to know, Matthew, is John Tamihere the best the right can do in this election? Well, you can't win Auckland by being a traditional so-called centre-right option. You've really got to win at least three of ` the old North Shore, the old Auckland city, West Auckland and South Auckland. And so the coalition he's brought together with the remnants of the political right in Auckland, I think, could be transformational. He will need to be able to count to 11. The number one skill of a mayor is being able to count to 11. But I think he's absolutely right that going down and negotiating with the government in Wellington, as Goff seems to think is the best path ` all nice about it ` simply does not work. What Wellington needs is political pressure from the mayor of Auckland, and Tamihere's going to be better at it than Goff. It is election year next year, so... are they going to have the timing for that? Well, they could do. But the other thing is ` you know, we're thinking of John Tamihere as being the centre-right candidate, and perhaps he is, but let's not forget that it was only a couple of months ago that he was wanting to get back into the Labour Party. And they didn't want him. And they didn't want him, they wouldn't have him. But he's not woke. (LAUGHS) Definitely not woke. Probably not. But is he centre or is he centre-right or is he, actually, trying to appeal to a large cross-section of people? Of course, with the work that he does, particularly in West Auckland, with the Waipareira Trust, there's a groundswell. There's a ground-roots element there. He does have that base out there in West Auckland, doesn't he? Absolutely. He's got a very strong reputation. He's done transformative work with Whanau Waipariera Trust. However,... we know, anecdotally, that it's more likely to be Maori woman voting in local government elections. Higher levels of participation from some of the exit polls, so he's going to have to wrestle with how he develops a relationship with Maori women, given some of the ` as you previously said ` misogynistic comments that he's been labelled with being associated with. And I think that's maybe part of what he has to do. Yeah, and how is that particular voter base going to react to the fact that he's teamed up with a right deputy? A former National Cabinet minister? I don't speak on behalf of front-bums, but... I do think that the women's vote is actually something ` particularly the Maori women's vote in Auckland. There's 50,000 of us. You know, something that he's going to have to spend some time courting. I'm not sure he's shown enough contrition around some of his previous comments. He didn't seem keen to this morning. He hasn't in the past. I think that is` He said he's made mistakes, but doesn't really want to revisit them, does he? Doesn't really cover it, though, and I think you do have to take responsibility, especially if you're wanting to be in a position of responsibility like being Auckland mayor. OK. Let's move on, away from John Tamihere to Paul Goldsmith, our newly-minted finance spokesperson. Susie, do you think he's got the same mana as the previous finance ministers? Well, he comes into this with, perhaps, a lower profile or perhaps a profile which he doesn't want, which is that he's the loser in Epsom. That's a difficult one to then stack-up with being as high a profile as he's getting, with being the finance spokesperson. So maybe he doesn't on that form. But the other side of that is that he does have time to establish himself before the next election. So, you know, the timing's on his side to give that development a bit of opportunity. As Susie says, Matthew, does Paul Goldsmith have a real problem, a real anchor on him, because he has been the 'loser in Epsom', as she says? No, I don't think so. I don't think that nationwide people are going to care much about that, that he's the one that takes the fall for David Seymour to win that seat. You know, Bill English was a list MP at the last election. Yeah, but` (LAUGHS) There's a big difference. Michael Cullen was` Well, he doesn't have to try hard to lose Epsom. It's an easy thing to lose Epsom to Act, if you're a National candidate. Look, I think he's ` like Michael Cullen ` he's, in a sense, an economic historian. He hasn't been a business person, so much, but he has thought deeply about the economy and New Zealand's economic history in the way Cullen did. There's no doubt that he's one of the top-performing opposition MPs in National. He has really, I mean admittedly, it's a little bit easier if you're up against Shane Jones, but he has landed a lot of punches against Shane Jones and also Grant Robertson, who he discovered doesn't know the size of the New Zealand economy. That was one particular question` But in opposition that does count. He was also very popular amongst, what I would call, the Auckland right ` the Auckland business community, and that's important for National. That's part of its constituency. Right so does he hold any appeal to you, Ella? Um, well, he has the kind of sonorous tones that give me a glazed expression after a few minutes, which I've associated with a number of ministers for finance. So in that regard, perhaps he's a raging success. He's a fantastic concert pianist too. Is he? People may be surprised to learn. Good to know. Good to know. OK, well, hopefully he can play the books as well in the right way. But is he` Why would Simon Bridges want Paul Goldsmith, do you think, Susie? Just because he's a Simon Bridges supporter or is there more to him? As Matthew says, he has got the economic chops. He knows his stuff on the portfolio. He has landed punches on people like Shane Jones, so the re-shuffle, while it was somewhat on the hoof, you can see why Paul Goldsmith was put in because, I guess, one of the other options who also knows the business world, also and Aucklander, was Judith Collins. Mm. Yeah. And she was... And that's not going to happen. And she was demoted, if anything, in that re-shuffle. Right so, Judith Collins, Matthew. I mean, is she always going to be pushed to the side by Simon Bridges while she's` I mean, is she really a contender? I don't think at the moment it would look credible for the two of them to be saying, 'We're the Prime Minister and Finance Minister-in waiting.' It is credible for Simon Bridges and Paul Goldsmith to present that picture. They are good friends. They've been good friends in government. They run together during the day. Oh, you mean literally they run together? No, no, they are very good friends. I think that you don't need to be close friends to be Prime Minister and Finance Minister. I don't think Cullen and Clarke got on as friends. But it can help. Jacinda Ardern and Grant Robertson have a friendship, and that's part of the power of this current government, so I can see it's a very rational choice for Simon Bridges to have made. All right. Our panel, we'll just have to leave it there for the moment. Thank you very much Susie, Ella and Matthew. All right. Stay with us, and we'll be back after the break. Welcome back, and we are back with our panel, Matthew Hooton, Ella Henry and Susie Ferguson. Uh, Ella, this bombshell report from the Waitangi Tribunal, 20 years Maori have had, on average, the lowest health outcomes of anybody. No surprise? Um, well certainly Waitangi Tribunal reports are something we know we can trust, because they have excellent researchers. The reality is, though, Maori health has been a dilemma for this country for far more than the last 20 years. You know, we were almost extinct in the year 1900, and we've clawed our way back to being a viable population over the last 120 years. But we still lag behind, and let's be clear that Maori disadvantage has very much stemmed from race-based policies in this country over the last 179 years to basically extinguish us. You know, loss of land, loss of language, loss of culture. So, we're going to need race-based policies to fix those problems. Right. So there are calls for race-based or targeted policies..., Absolutely. ...both in health, Oranga Tamariki, Justice. It's taking a long time though, isn't it, Susie? It's taking a long time, because colonization doesn't just stop. If there are institutions built up that are parts of the state, then there's a fair argument that could be made that colonization is continuing. And if you look at the outcomes for Maori, they do well for all statistics you don't want to do well in. The health, as Ella's saying, you know, it's been bad for the last 20 years ` it's been bad for the last 180 years, actually. And I think it's time that people realized that things have to change, and actually, you know, we've been talking about transformation elsewhere in the programme, there has to be transformation. And there has to be transformation right across many parts of the state system. The issue of targeted policies, though. I mean, New Zealand First in the past has been against it. Have we seen a change in heart from them? Would that help the Government get these targeted policies in? I think that the New Zealand First party has a policy based on what its donors think its policy should be on most matters. I think what reports like this say very, very loudly is that what Don Brash would call separatism, and what people on the political left might call privatization, are exactly what we need more of, because where Maori-based solutions have been developed they have been far more successful than the state ones, and whether you look at education, whether you look at John Tamihere's Waipareira Trust. Don Brash, as I said, would say, 'Oh, that's terrible separatism.' The left would say, 'Oh my God! It's privatization!' But that is, I would've thought, the solution. You could call those policies tino rangatiratanga, if you wanted. Haven't we seen a move towards that anyway, with the Oranga Tamariki from July? I mean, will they have to take Maori considerations into more policy settings. Certainly. But one of the things that this report did highlight is that those three principles of the Treaty ` partnership, protection and participation ` only two of those three are being, really, unilaterally applied in the health sector. Partnership is still not happening. So we're now having to require the Ministry for Vulnerable Children, I don't call them Oranga Tamariki because they don't deserve those beautiful Maori words until they start getting it right, they're the Ministry for Vulnerable Children. And they're being required to develop partnerships. And that's what is, as you said, actually going to be better for the country. It's economically more viable when we are healthy. It's good for the New Zealand economy. OK. All right, let's move on to the Justice Minister, Andrew Little, he's had an interesting week, Suzie. He took on Google, and he won. He did! That's good optics for a Justice Minister. It is. I think, I mean, it's amazing that, indeed, that was the outcome. I think a lot of people thought that Google would just, effectively, give him the brush off. What will happen further down the line is where this actually becomes a test of 'has it worked or not?' Is this just an apology, and Google moves on and nothing changes? Whether Andrew Little's managed to force change out of Silicon Valley, well that would be a big win if that's indeed the case. (SCOFFS) You seem a little sceptical about that. But is that the case, Matthew? Look, Andrew Little is an example of this Government at its worst in the sense that it's all just PR and noise, and statements with no connection to the real events occurring. We've seen this with him here. He's got an apology, so what? We've seen it with Pike River where, you know, a couple of people step across a threshold and he describes that as an historic day, re-entering the mine. We've seen it in Treaty of Waitangi settlements that's he is in charge of. Would you not say that he has actually effected change here? No. Because Google has changed some of its settings, hasn't it? No, I think he's issued a press statement. Hm. OK... And I think that, um, the connection right through this Government, whether it's Kiwibuild or this, the connection between what the Government says, what it's delivering, there has never been, in any government in my lifetime, where that gap is as great. On this particular issue, Ella, should we just step back and say, 'Oh, Tech Giants, Tech Giants, can't do anything about them.' or should we do what Andrew Little said and call them out? Well, this assumption that Google is a person when it's actually 100,000s of people, and I don't know at what level this decision was made (COUGHS) to giving an apology. However, if it means that there is a dialogue between the political machinery and a large, um, you know... dot-com giant, one of the biggest companies in the world, then I think that's gotta be a good thing. OK. That they're prepared to talk to us. All right, just before we go, we've got the gun buyback scheme being rolled out around the country, where hundreds of people are gonna turn up to hundreds of locations with guns, Susie. Mm. And you've got a question about that. Yeah, I want to know what's going to happen with the guns. Because the guns are going to be surrendered or bought back, and there's the framework in place for that. They're going to be put beyond use, crushed, effectively. What's going to happen to the guns? Are they going to landfill? Is something going to be made out of them? I'm curious to know what happens further down the line with all this metal. Are they gonna be melted down and something? Well, what should happen to them, Matthew? What should happen? I think you'd have to ask the victims of the terrorist attack, and the families of the victims. But, as an idea, that they might wanna consider, if they thought it was appropriate, what about the guns being melted down and then turned into the memorial? I think that's a lovely idea. Because, what a symbol of what's come on? Right. The one good thing that might have come of it. OK, do you think that would be acceptable to somebody who's been through such a` I'd love to be able to consult with that community. It's not a huge community, and we know who they are. So they should actually have a say in what happens, I think. Yes, of course. But a memorial, that is a piece of art, because art is liberating and transformational. And to turn weapons into art, I think, is a very powerful message to the world, and the fact that we as a nation have been very overt about gun control. We've acted very quickly. All right, well, maybe we should put that suggestion forward. To our panel, thank you very much, Susie, Ella and Matthew. When newly-minted Cabinet Minister Kris Faafoi unveiled a new $8m cybersecurity strategy this week, he promises the gold standard in cybersecurity ` increased co-operation with our allies, but some experts warn that it's not enough and we remain dangerously under siege online. Finn Hogan has more. In 2019, cybercrime is a booming, international business, with hackers netting an estimated $2 trillion worldwide last year alone. In response, the Government has announced it will spend an additional $8 million as part of a new cybercrime defence strategy. Paul Ash, Director of the National Cyber Policy office, says the additional money is well spent. Well, the new strategy is about ensuring that New Zealanders and New Zealand operates securely and confidently in a digital world. We've seen a steady lift in cybersecurity incidents in New Zealand. In the year to 30 June 2018, the National Cybersecurity Centre recorded 347 incidents. Of those, around 134, or around 39% had indications that they came from groups that had links to state-sponsored organizations. So, the problem is serious. There's no two ways about that. And it's one we have to respond to. The new strategy focuses heavily on international co-operation, and will move New Zealand towards signing the Budapest Convention, the only binding international treaty on cybercrime in the world. So, the Budapest Convention is a really critical part of the foundational work of building partnerships across countries of information sharing to deal with cyber crime. It means that we have the ability when cybercrime happens, and much of it comes from off-shore, to be able to reach out to our partners and seek mutual assistance in dealing with it. One man who deals with these threats daily is Joerg Buss technical director at cybersecurity company Darkscope. He says right now we don't even know the real scale of the problem. The attacks these days are very silent and very hidden. So, we have customers who were attacked or who were compromised six months ago, and the attacker were in the business for six months, had a user account, was reading emails, just to prepare larger effects. We are some years behind. If I look at our UK market, for example, I would say they are maybe 5-8 years ahead of us. Joerg says we need to re-think our image of what cybercrime even looks like. Couple of years back, we always thought that the hacker is the guy sitting in a basement, never sees daylight, is a lowly player. I think today it looks different, cybercrime is a business. We have to look at it like an industry, it's the fastest growing industry in the world right now. I know of a couple of businesses in the cybercrime industry, they basically pay income tax. They have employees. They have a health programme for their employees. They have contractors. But what do they call themselves? I don't know. Good question. They are IT experts. (LAUGHS) We know attacks coming from Russia, for example, is one. And South Africa is pretty active right now. We see, of course, India. So they are around the world. If you look in internet terms, we are something like 300ms from the furthest point we can get away. So 300ms is not really far, so we are not isolated, by no means. So we are under attack, New Zealanders and New Zealand businesses are under attack all the time. I think the challenge is, do we know and do we see it? And how do we see it and what is it we do about it? But we are no different to any other country in the world, we are under attack. So, and I think if we don't step up our game, we will fall behind even further. And that's all from us, don't forget the show's available as a podcast wherever you get them. But thank you for watching, and we will see you again next weekend. Captions by Ella Wheeler, Catherine de Chalain and John Gibbs. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2019