CAPTIONS BY MAEVE KELLY AND JAMES BROWN CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2019 KIA ORA, GOOD EVENING. I'M JACK TAME. TONIGHT ` BIG TOBACCO'S PUSH TO CONVERT SMOKERS TO VAPING. CAN WE TRUST THEM? I WOULD ACCEPT THAT THEY ARE NOT RISK-FREE. THEY ARE NOT RISK-FREE BY ANY MEANS. WHAT HARM DO THEY CAUSE? WELL, AGAIN, THAT'S NOT KNOWN, SO... HEALTH MINISTER DAVID CLARK IS HERE. NEARLY 10,000 PEOPLE DIE FROM CANCER EVERY YEAR. WILL HIS PLAN ACTUALLY SAVE LIVES? THEN, THE MEASLES OUTBREAK ` THERE'VE BEEN NEARLY 1000 CASES SINCE MARCH. HOW DID THIS DEADLY DISEASE MAKE A COMEBACK, AND HOW MUCH WORSE COULD IT GET? I CAN STAND IN THE FAR CORNER OF A LARGE ROOM AND SPREAD IT TO EVERYBODY IN THE ROOM. PLUS ` I INTERVIEW AMERICA'S TOP CYBER DIPLOMAT. HE'S BEEN LEADING THE US CAMPAIGN TO CONVINCE ALLIES TO DITCH HUAWEI FROM HAVING ANY PART IN THE ROLLOUT OF 5G MOBILE TECHNOLOGY. WE WILL RE-ASSESS HOW WE SHARE INFORMATION IF THERE ARE DEPLOYED UNTRUSTED VENDORS IN 5G NETWORKS. BUT WE START TONIGHT WITH THE ONGOING DEBATE OVER VAPING AND E-CIGARETTES, THE SMOKING ALTERNATIVE BEING PUSHED BY TOBACCO COMPANIES AS A WAY TO GET SMOKERS OFF TRADITIONAL TOBACCO PRODUCTS. THERE'S CONCERN NOT ONLY ABOUT THE UNKNOWN LONG-TERM HEALTH EFFECTS BUT ALSO THAT PROMOTING VAPING WILL ENTICE A NEW GENERATION OF YOUNG PEOPLE INTO ADDICTION. YOU WILL NO DOUBT HAVE SEEN MYRIAD ADVERTISEMENTS FOR SMOKING ALTERNATIVES, AND WHILE THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH SUPPORTS VAPING AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO NORMAL SMOKING, THE GOVERNMENT IS CURRENTLY CONSIDERING TIGHTER REGULATIONS. I SAT DOWN WITH PEATA MELBOURNE, THE NEW ZEALAND COMMUNICATIONS MANAGER FOR PHILIP MORRIS INTERNATIONAL, THE BIGGEST TOBACCO COMPANY IN THE WORLD, AND I ASKED HER, WHAT'S BEHIND HER COMPANY'S BIG PUSH ON E-CIGARETTES? YEAH, WELL, FIRSTLY, IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO, AND SECONDLY, IT'S THEY'VE SPENT SO MUCH MONEY, SO MUCH TIME, SO MUCH RESOURCE INTO TRYING TO FIND THE RIGHT PRODUCT. I THINK THEY NEED TO GO AHEAD WITH THAT. WHAT ARE THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS FROM USING HEATED TOBACCO PRODUCTS AS OPPOSED TO TRADITIONAL CIGARETTES? YEAH, WELL, THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT THEY HAVEN'T BEEN AROUND LONG ENOUGH FOR US TO KNOW. SO, YOU CAN ONLY DO SO MUCH TESTING ON THESE PRODUCTS. SO, THE TESTING THAT'S BEEN DONE SO FAR HAS BEEN SHOWN TO SHOWS THAT THEY'RE A FAR LESS HARMFUL AND A MUCH BETTER ALTERNATIVE FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO CARRY ON SMOKING CIGARETTES. THAT'S THE RESEARCH THAT PHILIP MORRIS HAS COMMISSIONED? YEAH, THAT'S THE RESEARCH FROM PHILIP MORRIS AND QUITE A LOT OF OTHER RESEARCH THAT'S BEEN DONE AROUND THAT. OK. THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANISATION SAYS, 'THERE'S CURRENTLY NO EVIDENCE TO DEMONSTRATE THAT HEATED 'TOBACCO PRODUCTS ARE LESS HARMFUL THAN CONVENTIONAL TOBACCO.' YES, THEY DO SAY THAT, AND THEY'RE GOING TO SAY THAT. I MEAN, A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO CRITICISE PHILIP MORRIS FOR THEIR RESEARCH BECAUSE IT'S DONE BY THEM, RIGHT? BUT THE THING IS THAT THAT RESEARCH IS OUT THERE, AND IT'S TRANSPARENT FOR EVERYBODY TO SEE, AND IT'S BEEN INDEPENDENTLY REVIEWED BY AT LEAST MAYBE ABOUT 30 INDEPENDENT REVIEWS AT THE MOMENT, SO IT'S NOT LIKE THEY'VE DONE RESEARCH AND TRIED TO HIDE IT FROM ANYONE. IN FACT, THEY'RE TRYING TO GET PEOPLE TO REVIEW IT AND SEE FOR THEMSELVES WHAT THE FACTS ARE. SO IS THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANISATION WRONG? I DON'T AGREE WITH WHAT THEY'RE SAYING ABOUT THAT. I THINK I THINK IT'S EASY TO SAY, 'WELL, BECAUSE PHILIP MORRIS DID IT, IT'S WRONG.' I ALSO THINK IT'S EASY FOR PEOPLE TO SAY, 'IF PHILIP MORRIS 'HAVE DONE THAT, WE'RE NOT INTERESTED IN LOOKING AT IT,' WHICH, GENERALLY, IS WHAT HAPPENS. WELL, LET'S LOOK AT SOME DIFFERENT RESEARCH. THIS IS FROM DR SUKHWINDER SOHAL FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF TASMANIA,... YEAH. ...THE LEAD RESEARCHER IN A STUDY FOR THE EUROPEAN LUNG JOURNAL, WHICH FOUND THAT THE PHILIP MORRIS PRODUCT IQOS, THE HEAT-NOT-BURN PRODUCT, WAS NO LESS TOXIC TO HUMAN LUNG CELLS THAN ORDINARY CIGARETTES. AND I QUOTE ` 'IT'S NOT 90% SAFER, NOT AT ALL. 'THE FIGURES IN OUR DATA CLEARLY SHOW THAT.' I GUESS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS THAT WE'VE JUST HAD THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION OF THE USA SAY THAT THESE PRODUCTS ARE NOW A BETTER ALTERNATIVE FOR THE SMOKERS IN THE USA, SO WHEN YOU PUT YOUR PRODUCTS THROUGH SUCH A ROBUST SYSTEM LIKE THE FDA, I MEAN, IT'S... IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE FIVE MILLION PAGES SUBMITTED TO THEM TO GO THROUGH ALL THAT SCIENCE, AND THEY'RE NOW SAYING, ACTUALLY, IT'S OK NOW FOR YOU TO MARKET THAT PRODUCT IN OUR COUNTRY. YOU KNOW, WHO'S GOING TO ARGUE WITH THAT? I MEAN, HE WAS I MEAN, A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD ARGUE WITH THE FDA. YEAH. I APPRECIATE, THOUGH, THAT THE EVIDENCE IS CONTESTED AT THIS STAGE... YEAH. ...AND THAT THERE HASN'T BEEN A PERIOD WITH WHICH WE CAN HAVE DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE AS TO THE LONG-TERM EFFECTS. YEAH. WOULD YOU ACCEPT, AT THE VERY LEAST, THAT THESE HEATED TOBACCO PRODUCTS CAUSE SOME HARM? I WOULD ACCEPT THAT THEY ARE NOT RISK-FREE. THEY ARE NOT RISK FREE BY ANY MEANS. WHAT HARM DO THEY CAUSE? WELL, AGAIN, THAT'S NOT KNOWN, SO... WHAT THEY DO IS ELIMINATE AROUND 90% TO 95% OF THE RISK THAT YOU HAVE IN CIGARETTES, RIGHT? SO THEY ARE NOT RISK-FREE, AND WE HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THEY ARE RISK-FREE. THEY ARE ALSO... THEY ALSO STILL CONTAIN NICOTINE, SO THEY ARE NOT NICOTINE-FREE EITHER. SO IF WHICH MEANS THEY'RE ADDICTIVE. THEY'RE ADDICTIVE, AND IF YOU'RE OUT THERE AND YOU DON'T SMOKE, YOU DON'T WANT TO GO ANYWHERE NEAR THESE PRODUCTS. IS PHILIP MORRIS TARGETING YOUNG PEOPLE IN NEW ZEALAND WITH THESE PRODUCTS? WE'RE NOT TARGETING YOUTH AT ALL. AT ALL. IN FACT, WE'RE NOT WE'RE VERY STRICT ABOUT KEEPING ANY OF THE MARKETING OR ADVERTISING OR MAKING OUR PRODUCTS APPEAL TO YOUTH THAT'S NOT WHO WE'RE AFTER. WHO WE'RE AFTER ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ALREADY SMOKING WHO JUST CAN'T QUIT, FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, AND WE THINK WE'VE GOT A BETTER ALTERNATIVE FOR THEM. SO, WHY DID YOU SPONSOR FASHION WEEK EVENTS IN NEW ZEALAND LAST WEEK? WELL, YOU NO, WE DIDN'T SPONSOR FASHION WEEK. YOU DID. I WAS AT ONE I WAS AT A FASHION WEEK EVENT LAST WEEK FOR STOLEN GIRLFRIENDS CLUB, AND IQOS HAD A LITTLE STAND THERE... AH. ...AND SPONSORED THAT SHOW. SO, WE DIDN'T SPONSOR FASHION WEEK, BUT WE WERE SO YOU SPONSORED INDIVIDUAL DESIGNERS AT FASHION WEEK FOR THEIR SHOWS? WE'RE IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THEM. CORRECT. THAT'S A... I MEAN, THAT IS MORE OR LESS THE SAME THING, ISN'T IT? BUT THEY'RE NO. WELL, IT'S` IT'S DISINGENUOUS TO SUGGEST THAT YOU'RE NOT SPONSORING FASHION WEEK IF YOU ARE SPONSORING SHOWS THAT ARE IN FASHION WEEK. WELL, NO, FASHION WEEK` HANG ON, WAIT. THERE'S FASHION WEEK THAT'S THE COMPANY, THE FASHION WEEK, AND THEN THESE ARE DESIGNERS WHO INDIVIDUALLY, INDEPENDENTLY DECIDED THAT THEY WERE OK WITH BEING SPONSORED BY` OR PARTNERSHIP... THE POINT IS THAT THERE ARE MAYBE 1000 PEOPLE THERE, THE MAJORITY OF THEM YOUNG, SOME OF THEM WITH SIGNIFICANT SOCIAL INFLUENCES, AND YOU ARE MARKETING DIRECTLY TO THEM. NO, BUT WE WEREN'T MARKETING DIRECTLY TO THEM. THERE ARE ACTUALLY REALLY STRICT RULES ABOUT WHAT` FOR INSTANCE, THE MODELS COULDN'T BE OVER 25 YEARS` COULDN'T BE, SORRY, UNDER 25 YEARS, AND THINGS LIKE THAT. WELL, I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS OF THE MODELS IN THAT SHOW WERE UNDER 25 YEARS OF AGE. SO` JACK, I CAN'T GO` I DON'T KNOW THE DETAILS` I'M JUST POINTING OUT, THOUGH,... I KNOW. ...THAT WHEN IT COMES TO YOUNG PEOPLE AND PROMOTING THIS NEW PRODUCT TO YOUNG PEOPLE, WE KNOW THAT YOU ARE PROMOTING THIS PRODUCT TO YOUNG PEOPLE. NO, WE'RE NOT PROMOTING TO YOUNG PEOPLE. OK. OK, WE CAN CONTEST THAT LATER. ARE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE NON-SMOKERS... YEAH. ...TAKING UP E-CIGARETTE PRODUCTS? N WELL, YES, THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE PEOPLE THAT WILL TRY THESE PRODUCTS, ALWAYS ` JUST LIKE THERE'S PEOPLE THAT TRY SMOKES. THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE THAT RISK THERE, BUT I THINK THE IMPORTANT THING` HOW MANY? HOW MANY, WOULD YOU SAY? OH, LIKE, LESS THAN 1%. REALLY? LESS THAN 1% OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TAKING UP E-CIGARETTE PRODUCTS... YEAH. WOULD OTHERWISE NOT HAVE BEEN SMOKING? YES. IS THAT... IS THAT ACCURATE? WE'VE LOOKED AT SOME NUMBERS, AND THIS IS A STUDENT-LED STUDY OUT OF WAINUIOMATA HIGH SCHOOL WHERE STUDENTS FOUND 20% OF STUDENTS AT THEIR SCHOOL WERE CASUAL SMOKERS, WHILE 60% WERE CASUAL VAPERS. AUCKLAND GRAMMAR'S PRINCIPAL SAID HALF OF HIS JUNIOR STUDENTS OWNED A NON-COMBUSTION PRODUCT OR HAD TRIED IT. HALF OF HIS JUNIOR STUDENTS. IT'S BEEN DESCRIBED IN SOME QUARTERS AS AN EPIDEMIC AT THE HIGH SCHOOL. OH, LOOK, THAT IS NOT GOOD NEWS AT ALL. THAT IS NOT GOOD NEWS AT ALL, AND, I MEAN, AGAIN, WE DON'T PROMOTE TO YOUTH. WE DON'T WANT YOUTH TO COME ANYWHERE NEAR THESE PRODUCTS. WE DON'T WANT NON-SMOKERS TO COME ANYWHERE NEAR THESE PRODUCTS. IT IS NOT FOR THEM. IT IS FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST CAN'T GIVE UP CIGARETTES. BUT IS IT`? HOW CAN YOU SEPARATE OFF THOSE TWO THINGS? HOW CAN YOU GET PEOPLE TO MOVE FROM CIGARETTES ON TO E-CIGARETTE DEVICES WITHOUT ATTRACTING NEW PEOPLE TO THESE E-CIGARETTE DEVICES WHO OTHERWISE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN SMOKING IN THE FIRST PLACE? IT'S VERY TRICKY, ACTUALLY, BUT WHAT WE HAVE TO REMEMBER IS THAT WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE WITH SMOKERS, RIGHT? AND SO THE ONLY WAY TO DO THAT AT THE MOMENT IS BY, WELL, GOING WHERE THEY GO TO TO GET THEIR CIGARETTES NOW. NOW, AT THE MOMENT, IT'S REALLY, REALLY DIFFICULT TO COMMUNICATE TO SMOKERS ` OR ANYONE ` ABOUT ALL THESE OTHER PRODUCTS THAT ARE OUT THERE ON THE MARKET. BECAUSE WE DON'T SUPPORT JUST OUR PRODUCTS; WE SUPPORT ANY ALTERNATIVE THAT'S BETTER THAN CIGARETTES, SO... THE MAIN CONCERN, THOUGH ` AND I'M JUST GOING TO KEEP COMING BACK TO THIS ` IS THAT WE'RE GOING TO ATTRACT SO MANY MORE PEOPLE TO THESE ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCES. AND THEY MAY INDEED PROVE TO BE LESS HARMFUL... YEAH. ...THAN TRADITIONAL CIGARETTES, BUT IF YOU HAVE THREE TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE VAPING THAT OTHERWISE WOULD'VE BEEN USING CIGARETTES, IS THAT REALLY ANY BETTER OFF? WELL, WHAT ? IS IT BETTER OFF JUST LEAVING ALL THESE SMOKERS, WHO ARE GOING TO KEEP SMOKING CIGARETTES, AND JUST LEAVE THEM TO KEEP ON DOING THAT? BECAUSE THAT'S WHY I'M HERE. I SEE SO MANY PEOPLE THAT HAVE GONE THROUGH ALL THESE SMOKE-FREE PROGRAMMES, AND IT'S JUST NOT WORKING FOR THEM, AND THAT'S REALLY FRUSTRATING. I'M NOT A SMOKER, BUT I HAVE TO PUT UP WITH IT. I'M AROUND PEOPLE THAT SMOKE ALL THE TIME, AND I HAVE TO SEE IT AND HOW IT DAMAGES THEM. NOW, I DON'T LIKE THAT, AND WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO COMMUNICATE TO THEM` YES, THERE ARE RISKS, AND WE CAN'T DO` YOU KNOW, WE CAN'T JUST MAKE SURE THAT NO ONE GETS THAT, BUT YOU HAVE TO FOLLOW AND PUT IN PLACE SOME REALLY STRONG REGULATIONS AND REALLY STRONG GUIDELINES TO TRY AND AVOID THAT. THERE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE RISKS. THERE ARE ALWAYS GOING TO BE LOOPHOLES WHERE PEOPLE CAN GET ACCESS TO THIS, BUT WE CAN'T... WE DON'T HAVE THIS... THIS IS NOT THE SILVER BULLET. WELL, WHAT ABOUT, THOUGH, IN 20 YEARS` WHAT HAPPENS IF IN 20 YEARS, ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE SCIENTISTS GO, 'THE LONG-TERM DATA IS IN; THESE E-CIGARETTES ARE REALLY DAMAGING 'TO PEOPLE'S HEALTH AND WE HAVE SO MANY MORE PEOPLE USING THESE THINGS 'THAN WERE SMOKING'? YEAH. WELL, THEN WE WON'T SELL THEM ANYMORE, WILL WE? BUT IT'S TOO LATE AT THAT POINT. BUT IT'S TOO LATE NOW TO HELP THESE SMOKERS, YOU KNOW? WHAT DO WE DO? DO WE JUST KEEP LETTING THEM SMOKE CIGARETTES? NO. SO, WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IN TERMS OF REGULATION? WHAT WOULD BE APPROPRIATE? TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE TO SMOKERS ` JUST DIRECTLY TO SMOKERS ` TO BE ABLE TO ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN; TO GIVE THEM AN INCENTIVE TO SWITCH TO BETTER ALTERNATIVES; BUT MOSTLY TO BE ABLE TO EDUCATE THEM ON WHAT'S OUT THERE ON THE ALTERNATIVES, BECAUSE AT THE MOMENT, THERE'S VERY LITTLE INFORMATION OUT THERE FOR THE SMOKERS. SO YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO ADVERTISE? UH,... NO, I WOULDN'T AGREE WITH ADVERTISING, BUT WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO COMMUNICATE AND EDUCATE. ADVERTISING'S A DIFFERENT` AND WHAT WOULD BE THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT? LOOK, JUST BEING ABLE TO OPENLY GO OUT THERE AND APPROACH BUSINESSES AND OPENLY GO OUT THERE AND FIND A WAY TO JUST TARGET SMOKERS ` R18 PLACES. I MEAN, WE KNOW THAT PHILIP MORRIS HAS TARGETED VULNERABLE GROUPS AS IT IS. WHO SAID THAT? THEY HAVE BEEN ACTIVE IN WHARE, IN GOING TO SOME LOW SOCIOECONOMIC COMMUNITIES. AUCKLAND ACTION AGAINST POVERTY SAYS THAT YOU'VE APPROACHED THEM. JACK, HERE'S THE PROBLEM I HAVE WITH THAT STATEMENT ` IS THAT I'M HERE AT THE COMPANY. NOW, IF THAT HAPPENED ON MY WATCH` THOSE LOWER INCOME AND THOSE DEMOGRAPHICS THAT HAVE BEEN TALKED ABOUT, THAT'S MY DEMOGRAPHIC. THERE IS NO WAY THAT I WOULD LET ANYONE COME AND TARGET MY PEOPLE AND EXPLOIT THEM. WHAT I WOULD ALLOW IS FOR PEOPLE TO GO IN AND EDUCATE THEM AND INFORM THEM, BUT TO EXPLOIT THEM IN THE WAY THAT'S BEEN TALKED ABOUT? NO. NO WAY. TELL ME ABOUT WHY YOU TOOK THE JOB. TELL ME ABOUT THAT. WELL, BECAUSE I... FOR YEARS, I'VE BEEN A JOURNALIST AND REPORTED ON THE SAME STATS, YEAR IN, YEAR IN, YEAR IN AGAIN, AND THOSE SMOKING STATS JUST WEREN'T GOING DOWN, AND THAT` I HAVE THREE PET HATES, RIGHT? TRAFFIC, FLIES AND SMOKING. NOW, I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT THE FLIES, BUT THE TRAFFIC AND SMOKING I MIGHT BE ABLE TO HELP. AND I FINALLY SAW A PLAN, ALBEIT FROM A TOBACCO COMPANY, THAT'S REALLY ROBUST AND REALLY BALLSY THAT I THINK WORKS. YES, IT COMES FROM A TOBACCO COMPANY, AND THAT DIDN'T SIT WELL WITH ME AT FIRST, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S A REALLY GOOD STRATEGY. THEY'RE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING THAT THEY'VE NEVER DONE BEFORE, AND I WANTED TO SUPPORT THAT. IT'S A QUESTION OF TRUST, THOUGH, ISN'T IT? IT IS. AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU TAKE A BROAD HISTORICAL LOOK AT PHILIP MORRIS, THIS IS A COMPANY THAT HAS PRODUCED PRODUCTS THAT HAVE CONTRIBUTED TO THE DEATHS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE, INCLUDING THE DEATH OF 5000 NEW ZEALANDERS A YEAR. YEAH. WE KNOW THAT PHILIP MORRIS HAS A HISTORY OF HIDING SCIENTIFIC STUDIES THAT LINKED SMOKING WITH CANCER,... YEAH. SO WHY SHOULD WE TRUST YOU? WELL, NO ONE'S ASKING YOU TO TRUST US. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE ASKING. NO, WE'RE ASKING YOU TO LOOK AT THE INFORMATION, ACTUALLY, AND WE'RE ASKING YOU TO JUST SEE IT FOR WHAT IT IS. TAKE AWAY THE PHILIP MORRIS BRAND AND WHO IT'S FROM; LET'S JUST LOOK AT THE FACTS AND THEN GO FROM THERE. SO IT'S NOT A MATTER` NO ONE'S GOING TO TRUST` I MEAN, I DIDN'T TRUST THE COMPANY WHEN I FIRST CAME IN, YOU KNOW? I DIDN'T WANT TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH PHILIP MORRIS, BUT... AND AS A JOURNO, YOU LEARN TO JUST PUT AWAY ALL YOUR ASSUMPTIONS AND ALL YOUR PRECONCEPTIONS OF ANYTHING AND LOOK AT THE FACTS, AND I WAS ABLE TO DO THAT WHEN I SAW THEIR PLAN, AND SO I'M QUITE COMFORTABLE, EVEN THOUGH` I'M NOT SAYING THEY DIDN'T DO BAD THINGS IN THE PAST; LET'S ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THEY DID THAT. THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THEY DID THAT. BUT, YOU KNOW, I'M FROM TUHOI, AND ME AND MY PEOPLE, WE WERE ABLE TO RECONCILE WITH THE COPS AFTER THEY WENT AND RAIDED TE UREWERA UNDER THIS TERRORIST SUPPRESSION ACT AND ARREST ALL THESE PEOPLE AND COME OUT WITH NOTHING. NOW, WE'RE ABLE TO RECONCILE WITH THE POLICE, SO I THINK I CAN FIND A WAY TO RECONCILE WITH THE COMPANY THAT ARE WILLING TO SELF-IMPLODE THEIR CIGARETTE BUSINESS AND TRY AND FIND BETTER WAYS TO MOVE FORWARD. AND ENLIGHTENING INTERVIEW. I'LL ASK HEALTH MINISTER DAVID CLARK WHAT HE THINKS ABOUT VAPING AFTER THE BREAK. DOES HE THINK IT'S SAFE? AND MY INTERVIEW WITH THE U.S STATE DEPARTMENT TOO ` AMERICA'S WARNING TO NEW ZEALAND IF HUAWEI IS PART OF OUR 5G UPGRADE. BUT NEXT, THE CURRENT MEASLES OUTBREAK IS THE WORST IN 22 YEARS. IT'S EASY TO PIN THE BLAME ON ANTI-VAXING PARENTS. BUT THEY'RE NOT THE ONLY GROUP WHO NEED CONVINCING ABOUT IMMUNISATION. THIS IS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD A LOT OF FEARS AND CONCERNS. THEY'VE HEARD STORIES. THEY'RE WORRIED. SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE INTERNET RAMP UP PEOPLES FEARS. AND THE KEY IS THE LOSS OF THE RELATIONSHIP WITH A TRUSTED HEALTHCARE PROVIDER. HEALTH OFFICIALS ARE EXPECTING THE NUMBER OF MEASLES INFECTIONS TO RISE OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF WEEKS. THERE'VE BEEN 963 CONFIRMED CASES SINCE MARCH, MOST OF THEM IN AUCKLAND, WHERE THE CURRENT OUTBREAK IS CENTRED. THERE'S BEEN A RENEWED DRIVE TO VACCINATE IN COMMUNITIES WHERE IMMUNISATION RATES ARE LOW. TO UNDERSTAND WHY, WHENA OWEN SPOKE TO THE HEAD OF THE IMMUNISATION ADVISORY CENTRE. DID YOU PREDICT THAT THIS WOULD HAPPEN? YES, WE WERE EXPECTING SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO HAPPEN, BECAUSE WE'VE KNOWN THAT THERE ARE GAPS IN IMMUNITY ACROSS THE NEW ZEALAND POPULATION. SO, WHERE ARE THE GAPS? DO WE BLAME IT ALL ON THE ANTI-VAXXERS? I'M TRICIA CHEEL, AND I'VE BEEN BRINGING 'VAXXED' TO AS MANY PLACES IN NORTHLAND AS I POSSIBLY CAN. NORTHLAND HAS THE LOWEST IMMUNISATION RATE IN THE COUNTRY, ALONG WITH THE WEST COAST. THERE ARE ALSO MICRO AREAS OF LOW IMMUNISATION ` AREAS LIKE COROMANDEL, HOKIANGA, TITIRANGI. WE FIND THERE ARE COMMUNITIES OF PEOPLE WHO DO NOT TRUST HEALTHCARE AUTHORITY ADVICE OR HAVE HAD BAD EXPERIENCES, AND THEY TEND TO GROUP TOGETHER, SO WE OFTEN FIND POCKETS AROUND THE COUNTRY OF COMMUNITIES WHO ARE LESS CONFIDENT ABOUT RECEIVING VACCINE. THE WEST COAST ARE SOMEWHAT SKEWED BECAUSE THE GLORIAVALE COMMUNITY, WITH 35 BIRTHS A YEAR, DON'T VACCINATE. BUT IN NORTHLAND'S CASE, AND AREAS LIKE SOUTH AUCKLAND, THERE ARE OTHER FACTORS AT PLAY. WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN NEW ZEALAND AT THE MOMENT IS SEVERE POVERTY, SEVERE DEPRIVATION, HAS GOT WORSE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, AND WE HAVE SEEN A DROP-OFF IN PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO OBTAIN IMMUNISATION IN A TIMELY MANNER FOR THEIR CHILDREN. IT'S VERY HARD FOR MANY OF THESE FAMILIES. IF YOU THINK OF ALL THE OTHER STRESSORS GOING ON IN AREAS OF HIGH DEPRIVATION, WHERE THEY MAY NOT HAVE SECURE HOUSING ` THEY'RE MOVING AROUND A LOT; THEY MAY NOT HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH A REGULAR GENERAL PRACTICE ` AND THEN THE VACCINE MAY NOT BE AVAILABLE. ANNA-LEE STEVENS (9) HAS MEASLES AND IS FEELING MISERABLE. AT THE TIME OF OUR LAST BIG MEASLES OUTBREAK, 22 YEARS AGO, FOR THE WHOLE VACCINATION PROGRAMME, UNDER 60% OF CHILDREN WERE IMMUNISED. OUR IMMUNISATION SYSTEM WASN'T UP TO SCRATCH. NOW, ALONGSIDE THAT, IN THE EARLY '90S CAME ALONG THE SCARE WITH MMR THAT ONE DOCTOR IN ENGLAND HAD PROPOSED IT COULD BE LINKED TO AUTISM. THE PARENTS UNDERSTAND IT. THEY GET IT BECAUSE THEY'VE LIVED IT. WAKEFIELD'S RESEARCH, THEY CONTEND, HAS BEEN A FRAUD. NOW, THE SCIENCE HAS COMPLETELY DEBUNKED THAT THEORY, BUT IT'S GOT STUCK IN THE NATIONAL PSYCHE. WHILE THE MORE EXTREME END OF THE ANTI-VAX MOVEMENT MAKES UP AROUND 25% OF THE RESISTANCE TO IMMUNISATION, DR TURNER SAYS THE REAL WORRY IS ANOTHER, MUCH LARGER, COHORT. IT'S CALLED 'VACCINE HESITANCY'. THIS IS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD A LOT OF FEARS AND CONCERNS; THEY'VE HEARD STORIES; THEY'RE WORRIED. SOCIAL MEDIA AND THE INTERNET RAMP UP PEOPLE'S FEARS, AND THE KEY IS THE LOSS OF THE RELATIONSHIP WITH A TRUSTED HEALTHCARE PROVIDER. THE MEASLES RESPONSE RIGHT NOW IS FOCUSED ON THE AREA OF BIGGEST OUTBREAK, COUNTIES MANUKAU ` BUT WHERE IS IT LIKELY TO GO? WE COULD PREDICT THAT THESE VIRUSES WILL SPREAD TO MANY DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY WHERE PEOPLE GATHER IN BIG GROUPS. DON'T FORGET THAT MEASLES IS ONE OF THE MOST HIGHLY-INFECTIOUS DISEASES IN THE WORLD. I CAN STAND IN THE FAR CORNER OF A LARGE ROOM AND SPREAD IT TO EVERYBODY IN THE ROOM. SO WHY NOT MAKE VACCINATION AGAINST MEASLES MANDATORY IN NEW ZEALAND? MANDATORY POLICIES ALONE ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE ANSWER. SO YOU DON'T THINK IT'S THE ANSWER FOR NEW ZEALAND? I DON'T THINK STRAIGHT MANDATION IS THE ANSWER; I THINK MAKING AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE YOU HAVE TO MAKE A CHOICE WITH SUPPORT AND UNDERSTANDING. WATCHING THAT, HEALTH MINISTER DAVID CLARK. WELCOME TO Q&A. DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT? WE SHOULD NOT MAKE IMMUNISATION MANDATORY? YES. WE NEED TO SUPPORT PEOPLE TO GET VACCINATED. IT IS A SIMPLE SCIENTIFIC CURE TO DEADLY DISEASES, SO WE NEED TO ENCOURAGE PEOPLE. IT IS NOT WORKING. IT IS ASTONISHING TO CONSIDER THE DIFFERENT NUMBERS ACROSS DHP'S. 65% IN AUCKLAND. IS IT NOT TIME WE CENTRALISED THIS APPROACH? I HAVE BEEN ASKING DHc'S TO GET OUT HERE AND DO WHAT WORKS. FOR EXAMPLE GETTING INTO SHOPPING MALLS. LOOK FOR OPPORTUNITIES IN SCHOOLS AND SO ON, AND THAT IS WHAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE. UNFORTUNATELY, PEOPLE HAVE BECOME COMPLACENT. WE KNOW THERE IS A SIMPLE CURE. PEOPLE NEED TO GET IMMUNISED. BUT THERE ARE MAJOR ISSUES WITH IMMUNISATION DEPENDING ON WHERE YOU GO AROUND THE COUNTRY. 20% DIFFERENCE, FIXABLE, BETWEEN THE HUTT VALLEY AND NORTHLAND. WHY NOT CENTRALISED GOVERNMENT APPROACH TO THIS, TAKE IT OUT OF THE SOUL HANDS OF INDIVIDUAL dhbs? IT IS THE NURSES THAT DELIVER THE VACCINES, IT IS THE PHARMACISTS AND HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS, AND THEY LIVE IN THE dhbs. THEY NEED TO BE OUT THERE DOING THIS JOB FOR US. SHOULD PHARMACISTS BE ADMINISTERING IT? THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY THEY'RE BEING EXPLORED. THEY ARE NOT CONNECTED TO THE INTERNATIONAL IMMUNISATION REGISTER, SO THAT IS A LOGISTICAL CHALLENGE THAT HAS BEEN LOOKED AT. HOW LONG WILL THAT TAKE TO ROLL OUT? I WILL WAIT FOR ADVICE ON IT. IT IS IMPORTANT WE REGISTER WHEN PEOPLE ARE VACCINATED. THAT IS BEING LOOKED INTO. I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE SORT OF THING THAT WOULD TAKE A COUPLE OF MONTHS TO INSTITUTE, OR COULD YOU GO ON A COUPLE OF WEEKS? I CAN'T GO INTO HYPOTHETICALS. WE KNOW THAT THE VACCINE WORKS. THE ISSUE RIGHT NOW IS NOT THAT PEOPLE CAN'T ACCESS IT. IT'S THAT THEY HAVE BEEN CHOOSING NOT TO FOR WHATEVER REASON. I THINK IT HAS A LOT TO DO WITH COMPLACENCY. THE SCIENCE IS CLEAR. GET VACCINATED. THERE HAVE BEEN MORE THAN 57,000 EXTRA VACCINES THE FIRST OF THIS YEAR IN AUCKLAND AS COMPARED TO THE YEAR BEFORE, AND THAT IS RESPONDING TO THE GLOBAL SITUATION WHERE WE KNOW THAT MEASLES CASES ARE UP 300% OVER A YEAR AGO. THIS IS AN EPIDEMIC ALL OVER THE WORLD, AND NOW WE FIND IT IS COMING IN FROM OVERSEAS HERE. WE HAVE TO RESPOND. IN SOME OF THOSE JURISDICTIONS THEY HAVE RESPONDED WITH REGULATORY OPTIONS. FOR EXAMPLE CHILDREN WHO HAVE NOT BEEN VACCINATED HAVE NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO GO TO DAYCARE. GIVEN THE EVENTS OF THE PAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, IS IT TIME WE INTRODUCED A NO JAB NO PLAY RULE? DHBS CAN SEND A MESSAGE OUT THAT SCHOOLS CAN REFUSE TO TAKE PEOPLE, AND WE HAVE SEEN SCHOOLS DOING THAT IN SOME INSTANCES. IT IS REALLY TRICKY, BECAUSE WE DO NOT WANT TO PUNISH THE KIDS FOR THE CHOICES THEIR PARENTS HAVE MADE IN THESE INSTANCES, AND THOSE KIDS NEED GOOD EDUCATION AS MUCH AS ANYBODY ELSE, BUT WE WANT TO ENCOURAGE ANYBODY YOU CAN TO GO OUT AND GET THE JAB. AT THE SIMPLE WAY TO PROTECT. WHAT ABOUT HAVING THAT RIGHT ACROSS ALL OF OUR DAY CARE CENTRES? MAKING IMMUNISATION MANDATORY FOR ANY CHILD THAT IS GOING TO BE AT A DAYCARE? PERSONALLY, I DON'T THINK LOCKING KIDS OUT FROM THOSE SITUATIONS ACHIEVES ANYTHING LONG-TERM. WE NEED TO EDUCATE PARENTS AND MAKE IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO GET IMMUNISED AND TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS TO BE PROTECTED. WHAT YOU MAKE MS COMMENTS FROM YOUR COLLEAGUE? " I DO RESPECT PEOPLE WHO MAKE THAT CHOICE. I GET TIRED OF THEM BEING LABELLED NUTTERS. SOME FAMILIES AND SOME COUPLES MAKE REASONABLE DECISIONS IN REGARDS TO THEIR KIDS." I WOULD RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE WITH THAT. THERE WAS NOT MUCH POINT IN GETTING ANGRY AT THE ANTI-VAXXERS. THEY WILL DO ALL THEY WILL DO. WE NEED TO APPEAL TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE NOTMAN EXPOSED TO THE SIMPLE CLEAR SCIENCE. PLEASE GET VACCINATED, IT IS REALLY THAT SIMPLE. THE SCIENCE IS CLEAR. NECESSARIES DISEASE. IT STATED IRRESPONSIBLE COMMENT FROM A MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT? I WOULD HAVE TO SEE THAT IN PARLIAMENT. HE OFTEN TALKS AROUND AN ISSUE. I HEARD ON THAT QUOTE YOU SAYING THAT HE BELIEVES IN VACCINATION AND THINK IT'S IT IS IMPORTANT, SO I WOULD NOT WANT TO TAKE IT OUT OF CONTEXT. WHY HAS THE CANCER PLAN TAKEN AS LONG AS IT HAS? WE HAVE HAD TO WORK LONGER SECTOR LEADERS TO GET IT RIGHT, AND WE HAVE BEEN ENCOURAGED TO DO THAT INCLUDING BY CANCER SUFFERERS. IT IS IMPORTANT TO TAKE THE TIME TO GET THE PLAN RIGHT, AND THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE DONE. WHAT DIFFERENCE WILL IT MAKE FOR PEOPLE WITH CANCER? WE WANT EVERYBODY TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS THE SAME SAME HIGH-QUALITY CARE FOR CANCER. WE HAVE INHERITED A LONG-TERM CHALLENGE. IT HAS BEEN A POSTCODE LOTTERY. WE NEED SOME ACTION TO GET ON AND FIX IT. SHOULD WE NOT CENTRALISE OUR SERVICES FOR DIABETES, FOR HEART DISEASE, FOR OTHER THINGS THAT CAUSE GREAT HARM IN NEW ZEALAND? THERE IS OUT THE DISABILITY SYSTEM REVIEW AND PLAY AT THE MOMENT, LOOKING AT QUESTIONS LIKE THAT. HOW DO WE STRUCTURE THE WHOLE SECTOR? WE PLEDGED WITH THE CANCER ACTUAL PLAN AS A LABOUR PARTY THAT WE WOULD DELIVER A CANCER AGENCY. WE HAVE DELIVERED THAT. THE QUESTION OF OTHER AREAS IS SOMETHING THAT WE WILL LOOK AT IN THE CONTEXT OF THAT WIDE REVIEW. $20 MILLION IN NEW FARMING THIS YEAR FOR FARM ACT. CAN YOU GUARANTEE CANCER PATIENTS WILL BENEFIT FROM NEW DRUG FUNDING? WE HAVE HAD ANNOUNCEMENTS ON THAT. 10 MILLION IN THE BUDGET. THE NATURE OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PHARMAC AND MEDSAFE, LOOKING AT THE ACTION PLAN, WHEN IT COMES TO ASSESSING DRUGS, IT WILL NOT NECESSARILY RESULT IN MORE CANCER MEDICINE IS BEING FUNDED. THAT IS CORRECT? IT WILL BE QUICKER TO ASSESS WHETHER DRUGS ARE SUITABLE. IT WILL NOT NECESSARILY RESULT IN MORE CANCER MEDICINE IS BEING FUNDED? IT'LL MEAN THAT CANCER MEDICINES THAT ARE EVIDENCE-BASED WILL GET FUNDED SOONER. BUT THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT THEY WILL BE FUNDED? THE NATURE OF THE MODEL IS THAT EVERY YEAR THEY FIND MORE DRUGS FOR PEOPLE. THE EXACT NATURE OF WHAT THOSE DRUGS ARE IS ULTIMATELY PHARMAC'S CHOICE. YOU OPPOSE ALCOHOL ADVERTISING? I PERSONALLY BELIEVE WE EACH DO MORE IN THAT AREA. I HAVE ASKED FOR WORK TO BE DONE ON THAT. PARTICULARLY IN RESPECT OF KIDS. IT IS ONE OF THE AREAS WE NEED TO LOOK AT, BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE RULES, WHICH ARE A VOLUNTARY CODE, REQUIRE THAT THE MAJORITY OF THE AUDIENCES NOT CHILDREN, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM. WE NATIONAL RELEASED THEIR ACTION PLAN, I ASKED SOME OF THAT BRIDGE SHOULD WE BRING IN TOUGHER REGULATIONS FOR JUNK FOOD WITH CHILDREN? THESE ARE THINGS THAT DO NEED TO BE LOOKED AT. I ABSOLUTELY THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT THAT AREA. I HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH THE FOOD INDUSTRY TASK FORCE ABOUT WHAT CHANGES COULD BE MADE THERE, BECAUSE I THINK PEOPLE IN THE FOOD INDUSTRY ALSO WANT THEIR BRANDS TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH HEALTHY OUTCOMES AND THAT IS SOMETHING PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO CONSIDER. I YOU COMFORTABLE WITH THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH PROMOTING VAPING AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO SMOKING? I THINK IF IT IS A GATEWAY OUT OF OTHER TOBACCO PRODUCTS, THAT IS A GOOD THING. IF IT IS A GATEWAY AND, IT IS A BAD THING. THE EARLY EVIDENCE SEEMS TO BE THAT IT IS LITTLE LESS HARMFUL THAN OTHER TOBACCO PRODUCTS. BUT YOU ALSO CAN'T HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER. THE COST OF GETTING PEOPLE OFF CIGARETTES AND ONTO VAPING AS COLLATERAL DAMAGE OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO WERE SMOKING IN THE FIRST PLACE. WE NEED REGULATION. THAT IS A LONG-TERM TALENT WE HAVE INHERITED. WE ARE PUTTING VAPING REGULATION TOGETHER AT THE MOMENT. MY COLLEAGUE IS PLANNING ON INTRODUCING A BILL TO PARLIAMENT IN ABOUT A MONTHS TIME, AND IT WILL HAVE A CLEAR PICTURE, AND IT WILL MIRROR WHAT HAPPENS WITH TOBACCO. THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO MARKET TO YOUNG PEOPLE. THEY WON'T HAVE FLAVOURS OR COLOURS OR THINGS THAT WILL APPEAL TO YOUNG PEOPLE. CONSIDERING THE COMMENTS FROM THE HEAD OF THE MAORI COUNCIL IN THE LAST COUPLE OF MINUTES. MAORI HE SAID THAT THE COUNCIL WILL NOT BACK THIS APPROACH. HE WILL ANNOUNCE THE COUNCIL WILL COME DOWN HARD ON VAPING. HE SAYS ' WE DO NOT TRUST YOU, PHILIP MORRIS.' I THINK HEALTHY SCEPTICISM OF TOBACCO COMPANIES IS WARRANTED. I THINK WE NEED FIRM REGULATION AROUND THIS. I HAVE ALREADY SEEN THEM OPPOSE SOME OF THE MEASURES WE HAVE TAKEN AROUND ADVERTISING, BUT I MAKE NO APOLOGY FOR THAT. WE NEED A SAFETY BASED APPROACH, AND IF THIS IS BEING USED AS A QUIT SMOKING SHALL, THAT IS FINE. IT IF IT IS THE WAY INTO OTHER ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCES, THAT IS NOT FINE. HELP MR DAVID CLARK. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. TONIGHT, SCHOOL PRINCIPAL SPEAKS OUT ABOUT CONFUSION FROM HEALTH TONIGHT ` A SCHOOL PRINCIPAL SPEAKS OUT ABOUT CONFUSION FROM HEALTH AUTHORITIES AROUND THE MEASLES OUTBREAK.AROUND THE MEASLES OUTBREAK. A MEDICAL EMERGENCY LEADS TO THE DEATHS OF A NEW ZEALAND COUPLE AFTER A PLANE CRASH IN THE PHILIPPINES. COMEDIAN KEVIN HART IS SERIOUSLY INJURED IN A MALIBU CAR CRASH. WE HAVE THE DETAILS. AND A ROOKIE PILOT PULLS OFF AN EMERGENCY LANDING ON JUST HIS THIRD EVER TRAINING FLIGHT. JOIN US FOR ALL THAT AND TOMORROW'S WEATHER AT 10.35. SEND US YOUR THOUGHTS. WE'RE ON TWITTER @NZQandA. YOU CAN POST YOUR COMMENTS ON FACEBOOK OR EMAIL US. NEXT UP, MY INTERVIEW WITH THE AMERICAN DIPLOMAT LEADING THE U.S. CAMPAIGN AGAINST HUAWEI. HIS WARNING ` AMERICA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH NEW ZEALAND WILL CHANGE IF WE ALLOW TELCOS TO WORK WITH THE CHINESE COMPANY. WE NEED TO ENSURE THAT WE CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN ROBUST INFORMATION-SHARING RELATIONSHIPS WITH GOVERNMENTS. AT THE SAME TIME, WE ALSO NEED TO BE ABLE TO PROTECT THE INFORMATION THAT IS IN OUR INTELLIGENCE CHANNELS. FIFTH GENERATION MOBILE TECHNOLOGY PROMISES FASTER DATA SPEEDS AND BETTER CONNECTIVITY ` THINK SELF-DRIVING CARS, NEW GENERATION ROBOTICS, TOOTHBRUSHES THAT KNOW WHEN YOU ARE SICK. 5G NETWORKS ARE BEING ROLLED OUT ALL OVER THE WORLD. VODAFONE IS AIMING TO SWITCH ON HERE IN DECEMBER, SPARK IN JULY NEXT YEAR. SPARK'S FIRST 5G PLAN WAS REJECTED BY OUR SECURITY AGENCY, THE GCSB, BECAUSE OF THE INVOLVEMENT OF THE CHINESE TELCO HUAWEI. I QUOTE ` 'A SIGNIFICANT NETWORK SECURITY RISK WAS IDENTIFIED.' THERE HAS ALSO BEEN AN INTENSIVE CAMPAIGN BY THE U.S. TO CONVINCE ALLIES LIKE US TO DROP HUAWEI FROM ANY 5G UPGRADES. I SPOKE TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT'S TOP CYBER DIPLOMAT, ROBERT STRAYER, AND ASKED HIM IF HE HAD ANY EVIDENCE THAT HUAWEI IS A SECURITY RISK. WELL, WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT CAN COMMAND HUAWEI TO DO ANYTHING THAT'S IN ITS INTERESTS. AND OVER TIME, THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN VERY ACTIVE IN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY THEFT. AND IN FACT, IN LAST DECEMBER, THE UNITED STATES AND 14 OTHER COUNTRIES INCLUDING NEW ZEALAND ATTRIBUTED A MASSIVE INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY THEFT TO THE CHINESE MINISTRY OF STATE SECURITY, WHICH WAS WORKING WITH A COMPANY IN CHINA AT THE TIME. THEY HACKED GLOBAL MANAGED SERVICE PROVIDERS AND CLOUD PROVIDERS IN ORDER TO PROVIDE THAT INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY TO THEIR OWN COMPANIES. WE ALSO KNOW THEY'VE CAUSED THE RE-ROUTING OF DATA AROUND THE WORLD TO GO THROUGH CHINA, WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE GONE THROUGH OTHER MECHANISMS IN THE GLOBAL INTERNET ROUTING. BUT YOUR MAIN CONCERNS WITH HUAWEI ARE FUTURE CONCERNS. YOU ARE CONCERNED THAT IF THIS 5G CORE TECHNOLOGY IS INTRODUCED AROUND THE WORLD, THAT IN THE FUTURE THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT WILL EFFECTIVELY ORDER HUAWEI TO SPY ON FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS. RIGHT. WE KNOW THAT THEY HAVE THE INTENT, WHICH I JUST MENTIONED. WE ALSO KNOW THAT THEY WILL HAVE THE CAPABILITY AND LEGAL AUTHORITY THROUGH THEIR NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE LAW AND OTHER LAWS. AND IF THEY BUILD OUT OUR 5G TECHNOLOGY, WHICH ISN'T QUITE YET DEPLOYED, THEY WILL THEN HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO EITHER CAUSE THERE TO BE ESPIONAGE OR TO UNDERMINE ALL THE CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE THAT'S GOING TO BE BUILT ON TOP OF THOSE 5G CONNECTIONS. THAT INFRASTRUCTURE IS GOING TO INCLUDE WATER AND POWER DISTRIBUTION. YOUR CONCERN IS ABOUT THIS CHINESE LAW. BUT HUAWEI POINTS OUT IT IS RUN UNDER A COOPERATIVE OWNERSHIP MODEL. HUAWEI HAS BEEN ADVISED BY ITS LEGAL TEAMS THAT, BECAUSE OF THE NATURE OF ITS OWNERSHIP, IT IS UNDER ABSOLUTELY NO OBLIGATION TO SPY ON BEHALF OF THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT, EVEN IF ORDERED TO DO SO IN THE FUTURE. RIGHT. BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW ABOUT CHINA IS THAT THE COMMUNIST PARTY IS INVOLVED IN EVERY COMPANY IN CHINA. AND THEY'RE ALSO INVOLVED IN THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OF HUAWEI. SO REALLY, AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT THE LAW SAYS. IT'S GOING TO BE ABOUT WHAT THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY DETERMINES. THE LAW IS JUST A MANIFESTATION OF WHAT IS REALITY, IN CHINA. LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT YOU SEE AS SYSTEM VULNERABILITIES. THE UK CYBERSECURITY EVALUATION CENTRE, WHICH IS OF COURSE RUN BY BRITAIN'S SECURITY SERVICES, HAS REVIEWED AND FAILED TO FIND CHINESE GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE WITHIN THE HUAWEI TECHNOLOGIES. WELL, THEY ACTUALLY ALSO, IN THAT REPORT, FOUND THERE TO BE SERIOUS AND SYSTEMIC DEFECTS IN THEIR SOFTWARE ENGINEERING AND CYBERSECURITY COMPETENCE. THEY FOUND OVER 500 VULNERABILITIES IN THE TYPES OF INFRASTRUCTURE, HARDWARE AND SOFTWARE THAT THEY WERE LOOKING AT AT THE TIME. SO THERE ARE MAJOR PROBLEMS WITH THAT INFRASTRUCTURE. WE WOULD SAY THAT THEY HAVE NOT CREATED JUST A BACK DOOR, WHICH IS A SURREPTITIOUS WAY TO ACCESS IT, BUT WHAT THEY'VE CREATED IS A BUG DOOR ` THAT IS SO MANY BUGS IN THE SYSTEM THAT IT'S EASY TO DENY THE ABILITY, TO DENY THAT THEY HAVE INTRODUCED THOSE IN ORDER TO CAUSE VULNERABILITIES. WHAT YOU'RE CONCERNED ABOUT ARE ENGINEERING FLAWS. DO YOU HAVE THE SAME CONCERNS WHEN IT COMES TO U.S.-RUN COMPANIES? WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT ALL INFORMATION COMMUNICATIONS TECHNOLOGY COMPANIES AND THEIR NEED TO IMPROVE THEIR CYBERSECURITY, THEIR ABILITY TO PATCH VULNERABILITIES. AND WHAT IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO IS DO YOU TRUST THESE COMPANIES TO ADDRESS VULNERABILITIES WHEN THEY DO OCCUR, AND WILL THEY BE VIGILANT IN ADDRESSING THOSE, AND NOT WORK WORKING WITH AN AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT THAT DOES NOT ADHERE TO THE RULE OF LAW IN THE POSSIBILITY OF BEING MANDATING OF ITS COMPANIES TO TAKE ACTION? WHY SHOULD OTHER GOVERNMENTS TRUST THE U.S. ON THIS STUFF? IF WE TAKE A BROAD LOOK AT IT, YOU COULD LOOK AT THE LIKES OF U.S.-RUN TECH COMPANIES ` FACEBOOK, FOR EXAMPLE ` WHICH HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO BE PRETTY LOOSE WHEN IT COMES TO PERSONAL DATA IN THE PAST, AND OF COURSE THE U.S. SPIES ON OTHER COUNTRIES AS WELL. WELL, I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF WHATABOUTISM HERE, AND COMPARING THINGS THAT ARE NOT EQUAL. WE REALISE EVERY COUNTRY IS GOING TO MAKE ITS OWN SOVEREIGN DECISION ABOUT HOW THEY ARE GOING TO PROTECT THEIR 5G NETWORKS. THE BEST THAT WE CAN DO ` AND ACTUALLY IT IS OUR DUTY TO DO ` IS TO SHARE WITH THEM OUR VIEWS ABOUT VULNERABILITIES RELATED TO THE SYSTEMS AND THE POTENTIAL THREAT THAT COULD HAPPEN BY HAVING A GOVERNMENT THAT DOES NOT HAVE A RULE-OF-LAW SYSTEM BE THE VENDOR FOR THEIR 5G TECHNOLOGY. WHAT HAVE YOU SHARED WITH THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT? WELL, JUST AS I'M EXPLAINING HERE, WE'VE SHARED THAT TYPE OF INFORMATION WITH THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT. AND WHAT HAS BEEN THE NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSE? I'M NOT GOING TO COMMENT ON OUR BACK AND FORTH OVER THESE ISSUES. WE HAVE AN ABIDING, STRONG SECURITY PARTNERSHIP. WE HAVE FRANK DISCUSSIONS ALL THE TIME ON A WHOLE RANGE OF ISSUES BEYOND 5G - ALL TYPES OF CYBERSECURITY ISSUES AND VERY LARGE GLOBAL ISSUES, AT THE SAME TIME. SO, WHAT IF NEW ZEALAND DOES ALLOW HUAWEI 5G TECHNOLOGY? SO, WE'VE SAID THAT ALL AROUND THE GLOBE, WE NEED TO ENSURE THAT WE CONTINUE TO MAINTAIN ROBUST INFORMATION-SHARING RELATIONSHIPS WITH GOVERNMENTS. AT THE SAME TIME, WE ALSO NEED TO BE ABLE TO PROTECT THE INFORMATION THAT IS IN OUR INTELLIGENCE CHANNELS. SO WE WILL RE-ASSESS HOW WE SHARE INFORMATION IF THERE ARE DEPLOYED UNTRUSTED VENDORS IN 5G NETWORKS. SO IT'S REASONABLE TO ASSERT THERE WOULD BE SOME REPERCUSSIONS IF NEW ZEALAND WAS TO ALLOW FOR THIS TECHNOLOGY? WELL, ALL WE WANT TO SAY IS THAT WE'D HAVE TO REASSESS HOW WE PROTECT THAT INFORMATION. WE WANT TO MAINTAIN THE MOST ROBUST RELATIONSHIP, PARTICULARLY WITH A KEY ALLY LIKE NEW ZEALAND. AND WHAT OTHER OPTIONS WOULD THERE BE FOR SHARING INFORMATION, IF THAT WERE THE CASE? I REALLY CAN'T GO INTO ALL THE TECHNICAL WAYS THAT THAT COULD BE ADDRESSED, BUT FUNDAMENTALLY, THE QUESTION WOULD BE WHY MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO SHARE INFORMATION BECAUSE YOU HAVE INTRODUCED AN UNTRUSTED VENDOR INTO THE NETWORK? WOULD IT POTENTIALLY AFFECT NEW ZEALAND'S ROLE IN THE FIVE EYES NETWORK? ABSOLUTELY NOT. THEY ARE PART OF THE FIVE EYES. THEY WILL, IN PERPETUITY, BE PART OF THE FIVE EYES. OK. TO WHAT EXTENT, ROBERT, IS THIS ABOUT PROTECTIONISM? OF COURSE, WE KNOW THAT THE U.S. AND CHINA ARE IN A TRADE WAR AT THE MOMENT, AND EFFECTIVELY IN A BATTLE FOR TECHNOLOGICAL SUPREMACY. MANY ANALYSTS SAY THAT HUAWEI IS A LONG WAY AHEAD OF U.S.-LED COMPANIES WHEN IT COMES TO THIS TYPE OF 5G TECHNOLOGY. YEAH. WELL, FIRST I'D POINT OUT I THINK THE ANALYSTS THAT ARE SAYING THAT ARE ACTUALLY HUAWEI, OR PAID BY HUAWEI TO SAY SO. WE ACTUALLY THINK THAT THE OTHER MAJOR VENDORS, INCLUDING ERICSSON, NOKIA AND SAMSUNG ` WHICH ARE SWEDISH, FINNISH AND SOUTH KOREAN ` THEY'RE NOT AMERICAN ` SO WE'RE NOT BENEFITTING AN AMERICAN COMPANY BY MAKING THIS CASE TO OUR FRIENDS AROUND THE WORLD ` ARE ON AN EQUAL FOOTING WITH HUAWEI IN THE AMOUNT OF TECHNOLOGY, IN THE QUALITY OF THEIR TECHNOLOGY. UNITED STATES TELECOM OPERATORS ARE ROLLING OUT 5G IN COMMERCIAL DEPLOYMENTS IN MORE THAN TWO DOZEN CITIES, ALREADY LEADING THE WORLD IN THAT. AND THEY'RE ONLY USING THOSE THREE TRUSTED VENDORS, NOT USING CHINESE VENDORS. SO WE THINK THAT IT'S NOT CREDIBLE AT ALL TO SAY THAT A COUNTRY NEEDS TO USE HUAWEI IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO RAPIDLY DEPLOY 5G INFRASTRUCTURE. IT'S INTERESTING TO CONSIDER THE WORDS OF JOHN SUFFOLK, WHO IS THE FORMER UK GOVERNMENT CHIEF IT ADVISER. HE IS NOW HUAWEI'S CHIEF SECURITY ADVISER ` SO HE IS PAID BY HUAWEI ` BUT HE SAYS THIS PUSH IS ABSOLUTELY MOTIVATED BY POLITICS, AND CERTAINLY NOT SECURITY CONCERNS. WHAT WOULD BE YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT? WELL, OUR CONCERNS ARE GENUINE ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF 5G SECURITY AND ABOUT THE REAL RISK THAT HUAWEI COULD BE COMMANDED BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT TO TAKE A NUMBER OF ACTIONS THAT ARE NOT IN ANYONE'S INTEREST. IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO RECOGNISE, WITH REGARD TO HUAWEI, THEY HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF UNTRUSTED ACTIVITY. THEY HAVE A LONG HISTORY OF CORRUPT PRACTICES AROUND THE WORLD, AS WELL AS INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY THEFT THEMSELVES. THEY'RE UNDER INDICTMENT FOR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY THEFT IN THE UNITED STATES, AS WELL AS VIOLATING IRAN SANCTIONS. THOSE ARE ACTIVITIES OF A COMPANY THAT REALLY CAN'T BE TRUSTED, THAT DOES NOT ABIDE THE SAME TYPES OF PRACTICES WE EXPECT TO SEE FROM WESTERN COMPANIES IN HOW THEY DO BUSINESS AND DO BUSINESS IN A MOST ETHICAL MANNER AS POSSIBLE. ROBERT STRAYER, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR CYBER AND INTERNATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS. NOW, SPARK DOES HAVE THE OPTION OF GOING BACK TO THE GCSB WITH A PLAN THAT ADDRESSES ITS CONCERNS. TODAY SPARK TOLD US IT IS STILL WORKING THROUGH WHAT POSSIBLE MITIGATIONS IT COULD PROVIDE AND IT IS YET TO MAKE A DECISION ON WHETHER OR WHEN IT WOULD SUBMIT A REVISED PROPOSAL. WE'RE KEEN TO HEAR WHAT YOU THINK ON THAT ISSUE. I'LL HAVE SOME OF YOUR FEEDBACK SHORTLY. BUT NEXT, IT MAY SEEM UNLIKELY, BUT THE METALS INDUSTRY WANTS TO FOCUS ON WELLBEING. WHEN YOUR GOVERNMENT STARTS TALKING A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE, YOU BEST START TO LEARN THAT LANGUAGE AND BECOME FLUENT. BUSINESSES TALK ABOUT SUSTAINABILITY A LOT. BUT WHAT DOES IT REALLY MEAN FOR ALL OF US? THE METALS INDUSTRY DOESN'T SOUND LIKE A CLEAN, GREEN KIND OF CROWD, BUT THEY ARE THE FIRST INDUSTRY TO TAKE ON TREASURY'S LIVING STANDARDS FRAMEWORK AND PUT WELL-BEING AT THE CORE OF WHAT THEY DO. DR TROY COYLE IS THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE HEAVY ENGINEERING RESEARCH ASSOCIATION. SHE EXPLAINED WHAT THE CHANGE MEANS. WE NEED OUR INDUSTRIES TO FOCUS ON THE CONTRIBUTIONS YEAH, I THINK THAT OBVIOUSLY FINANCIAL CAPITAL IS EASY TO MEASURE ` WE KNOW WHAT GDP CONTRIBUTION WE MAKE, WHAT EMPLOYMENT CONTRIBUTION WE MAKE. THE HUMAN SIDE IS PROBABLY EASY AS WELL, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DEVELOPING STAFF AND INNOVATION. BUT THE NATURAL CAPITAL PROBABLY IS SOMETHING THAT COMPANIES ARE BECOMING MORE AU FAIT WITH, IN TERMS OF MEASURING. BUT THE SOCIAL CAPITAL WAS A REAL CHALLENGE FOR US. A BIG PART OF THE SOCIAL CAPITAL DEVELOPMENT, IN TERMS OF THE FRAMEWORK, IS AROUND LEVELS OF TRUST. BUT I SUPPOSE THERE'S NO POINT IN A COMPANY SAYING, 'WELL, WE'VE GOT A LOT OF TRUST IN THE COMMUNITY, 'AND WE'RE EMPLOYING A LOT OF PEOPLE, 'AND WE'RE REALLY ENVIRONMENTALLY RESPONSIBLE, 'BUT HEY, WE'RE MAKING NO MONEY.' WELL, THAT'S TRUE, BUT I THINK PROBABLY THE REVERSE IS ALSO TRUE, THAT IF YOU'RE NOT LOOKING AFTER ALL OF THOSE FOUR CAPITALS SIMULTANEOUSLY, THERE'S GOING TO BE CHANGE IN THE WAY THE PUBLIC IS PERCEIVING YOUR ORGANISATION OR COMPANY, AND PROBABLY A SHIFT. AND PERHAPS IT'S IN THE LONG-TERM FINANCIAL INTEREST, AND IN THE INTEREST OF FINANCIAL CAPITAL, TO MAKE SURE THAT THOSE OTHER CAPITALS ARE PERFORMING AS STRONGLY AS POSSIBLE AS WELL. YES, ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THAT EVEN NOW, WHEN WE THINK OF IT MORE IN A SELF-SERVING WAY, ONE OF THE OTHER RATIONALES FOR US DOING THIS WORK WAS THAT WHEN YOUR GOVERNMENT STARTS TALKING A DIFFERENT LANGUAGE, YOU BEST START TO LEARN THAT LANGUAGE AND BECOME FLUENT, BECAUSE IF YOU'RE INVOLVED IN GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS, WHICH OUR INDUSTRY IS, THROUGH BUILDING AND CONSTRUCTION AND INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS, WE ACTUALLY NEED TO BECOME COMPETITIVE USING THE SAME LANGUAGE. HOW DO YOU QUANTIFY THIS STUFF? HOW DO YOU MEASURE IT? WHEN I THINK OF THE METALS INDUSTRY, I DON'T AUTOMATICALLY THINK OF AN INDUSTRY THAT'S GOING TO DO WELL IN NATURAL CAPITAL AND ENVIRONMENTALISM. HOW DID THE INDUSTRY GO, WHEN YOU MEASURED IT AGAINST THE NATURAL CAPITALISM? I THINK THAT IT'S FAIR TO SAY THERE ARE AREAS IN NATURAL CAPITAL WHERE WE'RE DOING REALLY WELL, AND THERE ARE AREAS WHERE WE NEED TO IMPROVE. AN EXAMPLE WHERE WE'RE DOING REALLY WELL IS IN TERMS OF LIFE-CYCLE ANALYSIS ` SO, STEEL IS A VERY RESILIENT PRODUCT, SO IT'S GOT A LONG LIFETIME. THAT IMPROVES ITS PERFORMANCE, IN TERMS OF ENVIRONMENTAL PERFORMANCE. BUT WE ALSO DO NEED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE'VE GOT AN EMBODIED CARBON ISSUE. AND THE INDUSTRY ISN'T SCARED TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT AND LOOK AT OPPORTUNITIES TO IMPROVE IT. YEAH, TELL ME ABOUT THAT. BECAUSE I SAW A SUBMISSION TO THE PRODUCTIVITY COMMISSION IN WHICH BLUE SCOPE STEEL SAID THERE IS CURRENTLY NO TECHNOLOGY ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD THAT ALLOWS FOR STEEL TO BE MADE FROM RAW MATERIALS WITHOUT COAL. IS THAT TRUE? THAT IS TRUE. THERE ARE PILOT PLANTS BEING ESTABLISHED ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD THAT ARE LOOKING AT HYDROGEN AS A REDUCTANT FOR STEEL. BUT AT THE MOMENT, COAL IS THE ONLY FEASIBLE OPTION. BUT THERE'S ONLY SO FAR YOU CAN GO, FROM AN INDUSTRY PERSPECTIVE, IF THERE SIMPLY ISN'T TECHNOLOGY THAT EXISTS. SO, WHAT SORT OF THINGS COULD NEW ZEALAND STEEL DO, FOR EXAMPLE, TO REDUCE ITS CARBON FOOTPRINT? IT COULD LOOK AT THE WAYS THAT IT'S REUSING ITS ENERGY. SO ALREADY IT'S REUSING 60% OF THE ENERGY IS ACTUALLY CO-GENERATED ON SITE. IT COULD LOOK AT OTHER OPTIONS TO DO THAT. ON THE OFFSETTING SUBJECT, I SEE A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO THE MORGAN FOUNDATION NAMED NEW ZEALAND STEEL AS THE COUNTRY'S FIFTH LARGEST BUYER OF FRAUDULENT CARBON CREDITS, WHICH WOULD SUGGEST THAT IT COULD BE GREENWASHING SOME OF ITS ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES. YEAH, AS I SAID, I CAN'T REALLY SPEAK ON NEW ZEALAND STEEL'S BEHALF. THEY'RE ONE MEMBER OF 600 IN OUR ORGANISATION. BUT I DEFINITELY THINK THAT THEY HAVE DONE A LOT OF WORK. THEIR CARBON FOOTPRINT IS DECREASING YEAR ON YEAR. WE HAVE TO LOOK AT, ON THE ONE HAND, IT IS A CARBON-INTENSIVE MATERIAL, ON THE OTHER HAND, IT'S A VITALLY IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF THE NEW TECHNOLOGIES ` WIND, GEOTECH, SOLAR. SO THAT HAS TO BALANCE OUT. DR TROY COYLE, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OF THE HEAVY ENGINEERING RESEARCH ASSOCIATION. STICK AROUND. WE'VE GOT YOUR FEEDBACK ON THE ISSUES ON TONIGHT'S PROGRAMME, NEXT. A LOT OF VAPING ADS. THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF FEEDBACK ON OUR PHILIP MORRIS INTERVIEW. BRENDON MCKENNA TWEETED... 'I WONDER IF THERE WOULD BE ANY SUPPORT 'FOR A BINDING NATIONAL REFERENDUM 'ON MAKING TOBACCO AND RELATED PRODUCTS, INCLUDING VAPING, 'AN ILLEGAL CLASS A DRUG?' THIS FROM ALEXANDER DOUGLAS. AND MAXINE GAY ` 'VAPING IS 'SAFER' THAN CIGARETTES DOESN'T MAKE IT SAFE OR DESIRABLE.' 'PHILIP MORRIS ARE PROMOTING VAPING TO MAKE MONEY, 'NOT TO PROVIDE A SOCIAL SERVICE.' TIM PATE TWEETED... 'IF PHILIP MORRIS REALLY WANTS TO TAKE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND 'AND ARE CONVINCED VAPING IS SIGNIFICANTLY LESS HARMFUL, 'WHY HAVEN'T THEY STOPPED PRODUCING CIGARETTES 'OR AT LEAST GIVEN A DATE THEY WILL CEASE PRODUCTION?' THANK YOU SO MUCH. WE WILL CONTINUE THE DEBATE ON OUR FACEBOOK PAGE. THANKS FOR WATCHING AND THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THANKS TO THE Q+A TEAM. HEI A TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT MONDAY EVENING AT 9.30. CAPTIONS BY MAEVE KELLY AND JAMES BROWN WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2019