Today on Newshub Nation ` Paula Bennett on the allegations of a sexual assault cover-up in the Prime Minister's party and office; Dr Sylvia Nissen explains a renaissance in New Zealand's student activism; and six months have passed, we commemorate the worst terrorist attack New Zealand has ever seen. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2019 Kia ora. Good morning. I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. The Labour staffer at the centre of sexual assault allegations has resigned, and so has Labour party president Nigel Haworth. But pressure continues to build on the Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, over claims of a cover-up in her party and her office. Ardern is due to fly to the United Nations in New York, but even there is unlikely to get a reprieve from the question of how much she and her closest staff knew and when. Opposition Leader Simon Bridges has travelled to China and met with Guo Shengkun the senior leader responsible for the Chinese Secret Police. Bridges also gave an interview to Chinese state media in which he lavished praise on the Chinese Communist Party, earning him ridicule and question time in the New Zealand parliament. He travelled to China with National spokesperson on the SIS ` Gerry Brownlee ` and National Party list MP Jian Yang who spent 15 years working for Chinese military intelligence. And following criticism New Zealand is one of the few countries not to teach its own history in schools, the Prime Minister has announced New Zealand history will be compulsory within three years. From 2022, it will be taught at every level of the school curriculum. Well, National's Deputy Leader Paula Bennett spent the week claiming a serious cover-up in the Prime Minister's office. She used parliamentary privilege to name three of the Prime Minister's closest advisors who, she says, knew about the sexual assault allegations against a Labour staffer. Is this about justice for complainants, transparency in the public service or scoring political points? Paula Bennett joins me now. Thank you for coming on the programme. Are you outright accusing the Prime Minister and Senior Minister Grant Robertson of lying about this. Well, they're either being misleading or they have been misled. It seems to me that pretty much everybody has known for a lot of weeks that we've got sexual assault claims within the Labour Party, except the Prime Minister is what she's trying to say. Certainly, the victims have told me that they have spoken to senior staff in her office. Certainly, one of them have said that they've spoken with Grant Robertson. To be fair, none of them have said that they have spoken directly with Jacinda Ardern. So, in that context, I can only go by what I know. So, you can't actually say that they're lying, though, can you? You don't have evidence that the Prime Minister or Grant Robertson are lying? Well, Grant Robertson is not saying what he knows, and I think in that context that kind of speaks volumes, really. I mean, the thing I'd say to you, Simon, it's not me that should be sitting here this morning; It's, quite frankly, someone from the Labour Party fronting up and actually saying what really has been going on. OK. So, we have asked the Labour party, and they've said, no, they don't want to come on. But Robertson's just saying, 'Look, let's trust the process. 'Let's trust the QC rather than just giving details and adding to the fire.' Well, that's incredibly appalling in its own way. So, a QC was called in five weeks ago. We still have no terms of reference. The very people that are deciding those terms of reference are the Labour council of whom three members sat on the original panel and, as we know, have hideously mistreated the victims and this whole process. So, five weeks on, they can't decide on what the terms of reference are. I think it's time that we accept that they cannot handle this process and that it has to be truly independent and they have to get the right experts in that do right by the victims. OK. So, the complainants came to you five weeks ago? Around five weeks ago. Yeah. OK. At the time, what representations did you make? Cos you said in the House yesterday, your 'own representations on this issue'. Did you tell the Prime Minister? I certainly suggested to them around the police` Who's them? The victims, sorry. Around the police because they're very serious allegations, obviously. I also indicated to them that I thought I would know someone who would be particularly sympathetic to it and very good within the police. I offered support as far as counselling and others like that. But you didn't take it to the Prime Minister? I did take it to the Speaker. To the Speaker? Yeah, but not to the Prime Minister. Why did you take it to the Speaker and not the Prime Minister? Because it was within parliament buildings at that point. From their perspective, that was something that they wanted to go further down. The way I read it and the way I heard it from them was actually I believed at that point that Jacinda Ardern and the Labour Party and the Council already knew what was going on. This wouldn't be new news to them. It was actually the actions that needed to change. OK. So, it is new news to them. Or the detail of the complaint or the fact that it actually involves sexual assault. That's new to the Prime Minister, she said on Monday. Why is it not possible that you can believe that the Prime Minister has either been shielded or misled? Just because of the number of people that now we know know. And we can see by Nigel Haworth having to stand down. We've got senior people within the party right up to the president. We then have, I'm told, senior people within her office, of her Chief of Staff. If her Chief of Staff and other senior people don't know, why was he stood down five weeks ago? So, they did know at least five weeks ago, otherwise he wouldn't have been stood down from his job. We then have two victims that've told me` Who, by the way, these victims have been proven to be honest the whole way through this. People have tried to say that they have lied. They've tried to dismiss them. But they have proven time and time again to be honest people. And they have told me they took a direct complaint to one of the Prime Minister's very senior staffers. Which staffer did they complain to? To Rob Salmond. Rob Salmond. So, they are saying all of these people knew. So, they've either shielded the Prime Minister from it or she has known and she has chosen to try and avoid` So, this is what the complainants are telling you? You haven't actually seen that complaint? Have you seen any documentary evidence to back up these complainants? No. No, I haven't. OK. So, you're believing the complainants? Yeah, I absolutely believe them. And that was something I made a call on, quite frankly. I did want to know who they were. They couldn't be anonymous to me in that context. But I felt that actually if you were doing victim-led then you take them at their word. OK. And I feel like they deserve a voice, and they came to me for that. So, is that why you take them at their word, that the Prime Minister's closest advisors` You said under parliamentary privilege that they took out a witch hunt. I think it was Andrew Campbell that you mentioned in parliament performing a witch hunt. What evidence do you have of that? Or is it just the word of the complainants? It was one day I was in contact with one of them, and they just said, 'Look, it's just absolutely awful here. Andrew Campbell is literally walking the corridors, 'looking for people that are talking to the media and looking for them. 'And we're actually going more inside of ourselves cos we're actually terrified.' The fear was genuine. I guess that's why you raised it in parliament cos it's serious allegations and you're taking the word of somebody. Yeah. Is that why you raised it in parliament under privilege? They can stand up and defend it at any time, and they're not. Well, the Prime Minister, she is defending it. She said she's happy with the conduct of her senior staff. All right. Well, that's her call to make, I suppose. I think that there will be a number of victims out there that would disagree with that completely. You say you encouraged the victims or complainants to go to the police. Have any of them told you why they have not done that? Look, it's their call, right? So, all the way through this, I have felt that they are incredibly smart, intelligent people that get to make a call on what they want to do next, and that that's not mine to make, right? But you've laid out that option for them? Yeah, absolutely. These are very serious allegations. Absolutely. And they should have the support to go to the police if that's what they wanted as well. OK. That's not the path that` Look, they wanted to keep this within the Labour Party. If they had been treated fairly and respectfully and appropriately from day one, then, obviously, we wouldn't be sitting here discussing it now. Well, the process is underway now. Nigel Haworth has resigned; so has the staff who's at the centre of these allegations; and the QC is investigating. So, why not just step back now and let the process take its course? Because the process is not taking it's course. We have not terms of reference. The victims were expected to sign up to the QC's investigation without even knowing what those terms of reference are. The Council themselves are deciding what they are. It's not truly independent, and they don't have faith in that. And I think we do have a job to now hold the Labour Party to account. They've completely botched this every step of the way. They need to get it right now for the victims. What about the counter pointer, though? Wouldn't it be more ethical of you to stand back? And this is what Labour says, they say they never got involved when Jami-Lee Ross was making all kinds of allegations and there were stories coming out around Jami-Lee Ross, OK? And they stood back, and they did not get involved. They said that's up to the National Party to handle that. So, why are you dipping your toe in this one? I think that the reason they stood back then was because they had their own mess that they knew was going on. And they did know that. (SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) I would not have come forward on this if the victims hadn't come to me, yeah? So, the victims came to me. They said every step of the way they have been shut down, they have been maligned. They feel like they have no voice and no one that's actually speaking for them. OK. And in that context, I really thought about it, Simon, to be fair, because it was a big call to make. And I felt that me not sticking up for them and not speaking is me yet again having them being silenced. Is it somewhat hypocritical for you as a deputy party leader to take that stance when National's never released its own workplace culture review? Our health and safety review is there. People can go and look at it. The recommendations. You haven't actually released the report, though. So, that whole recommendations are there. We've implemented them. We want to do and wanted to do better, so it's absolutely` You can't compare allegations of serious sexual assault that've gone through a whole process that've been covered up and actually been more about managing the communications around this than it has been` really seeing it as victim-led. If it's proven that the Prime Minister did know about the alleged details earlier than this week, what do you think should happen? She absolutely can't stay in the job if that's the case. But that is a big step to make, because she has blatantly gone out there and said that she didn't. OK. And if it's proven that she didn't know, are you going to apologise and say there wasn't a cover-up? But there is a cover-up because we've got the council that's covering up. We've already got a president that's had to resign because they've been covering it up. We've got Grant Robertson who won't say what he knows. I think it's time they came clean. It's time they fronted up. Time they gave these victims a voice, quite frankly, not me. I would rather not be here this morning. I would much rather that they were truly standing up and saying what they know and making sure that they got the process right from here. OK. Deputy leader of the National Party Paula Bennett, thank you for your time this morning. Thank you. All right, we asked for the Prime Minister or a representative from her office as well as former Labour President Nigel Haworth to come on the programme today but all declined. If you've got something to say about what you see on this show, please let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Newshub Nation NZ Twitter panel this week ` Tim McCready and Bevan Chuang, they're using the hashtag #NationNZ. Or you can email us at nation@mediaworks.co.nz. But still to come, we dissect the week's political news with our panel. Plus ` Health Minister David Clark on his mental health plan and analysis from a suicide survivor. Welcome back. It was a big week in mental health, with four major announcements. One was a new suicide prevention strategy which the Maori Council has labelled 'a kick in the guts'. The Maori suicide rate is double the national rate. So I asked Health Minister David Clark why he chose not to target Maori in the new strategy. Good morning. It is a hugely challenging area. Our suicide statistics have been too high for far too long, and they've been going in the wrong direction for the last five years. And Maori have been, in particular, badly affected. And of course, behind every one of those statistics is a personal story of tragedy. There is a lot in the strategy that is focused on making sure that we're supporting Maori ` around the research, one of the founding documents was gifted by a Maori group. And there has been plenty of consultation along the way to make sure that it is responsive, our strategy, to the needs of Maori. And yet the Maori Council describes it as 'a shiny new toy with Maori locked out.' Why would they say that, if you say that you have done all this consultation? Well, the majority of Maori that I've heard from have welcomed the strategy. They see it as a real step forward. There is resource going into supporting new Maori and Pacific responses. There is money going into supporting the bereaved, to make sure that they have counselling available ` 2500 counselling sessions a year, because we know that they're particularly vulnerable. And of course it won't please everybody, but most I'm hearing from are very pleased that we have a strategy in place now and that we can get on with our response. Why are you not taking a more targeted approach, I guess, is the question. Because men are three times more likely than women to take their own lives via suicide. The rainbow community is twice as likely to consider suicide. It's an overall strategy, not targeted. Look, I'd push back on that. We do think, fundamentally, that every life matters, and so we don't want there to be a wrong door for people to come through when they're seeking help. The strategy itself looks at everything from prevention, well-being in the community, interventions, prevention, postvention. It's a strategy that looks across all areas. And frankly, we've also got to look even more broadly, and so the moves we are making in primary care, to make sure that people with mild to moderate needs in anxiety or depression can access help for free in their communities, to stop small problems becoming big problems, is also a part of what we're doing. OK, so you have a new director to be appointed to the Suicide Prevention Office. We understand that that person is Carla na Nagara. Can you confirm that? No, I'm not able to confirm that. That appointment is one that's made by the Ministry of Health directly. It's not one that ministers make decisions on. All right. Let's talk about the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission. You announced the members this week. There is some concern in the sector that there aren't enough people on it with lived experience. Well, there are people with lived experience on that. Well, one, isn't there? Kelly Pope, a young woman from Christchurch, has lived experiences. Others have experience close to them. And certainly all have been heavily involved in the sector. But I don't want to speak for them on their experiences. It is, I believe, a panel that looks across New Zealand, represents a broad range of people. And from the sector, we've had nothing but praise for the broad range of people that are on there and the respect that they come with. OK. And this Friday you announced extra support for the victims of the Christchurch attacks, in terms of their mental health ` new funding. Is this a way, though, of avoiding reforming ACC to include mental trauma? You seem to be just dumping money where the problem exists, but what happens next time if you don't reform ACC? Look, ACC falls outside of my area of ministerial responsibility. But the response for Christchurch has been quite targeted, deliberate, making sure that we do some practical things, like make sure that GP visits can be extended for those who are experiencing trauma, making sure the trauma support, more generally, is adequately funded, making sure community resilience is supported, and so on. There is a range of measures in there that we know will make a real difference for those who are suffering following the March 15 events. All right. Just finally, if I could quickly ask you about the measles outbreak. 1200 cases now. That's the same number as in all of America. Is that somewhat embarrassing, as Health Minister? Look, there's been a global outbreak of measles ` 300% up from last year. We've had a huge uptake of vaccine. We've put out around 70,000 more vaccines so far this year than we did last year. I'm really impressed with the way the public is coming forward. We want to focus on the under-4 age group ` 15 months-4 years old, 12 months old in the case of Auckland, to make sure people do get immunised. It's the one thing that people can do to make sure that they are protected. And our immunisation rates are not what they should be. And that goes back a long way. They've been hovering around 90% for years and years. But people can do something about it. They can go and get immunised, and they are coming forward, and that's a good thing. Does that mean that you need to launch a nationwide immunisation catch-up campaign to get that immunisation rate up to that 95%? The Honourable Julie Anne Genter leads on the area of immunisation more generally for us as a government. But I know that's something she is looking at very closely, because we do want to raise our immunisation rates to make sure that we aren't vulnerable to outbreaks, as has happened in Auckland. So, is there any possibility of that happening? Look, I think that we need to look at what we need to do to get our immunisation rates up around the country. And I know that I am very interested in seeing that. I know Julie Anne Genter is very interested in seeing how we can make sure we raise our immunisation rates around the country. It's something that is being pursued right now. Health Minister David Clark, thank you very much for your time. Thanks, Simon. All right, watching that interview with me is Jazz Thornton. She's a suicide survivor who's gone on to cofound the mental health support group Voices of Hope. Jazz, welcome back to the programme. Do you think that a suicide prevention strategy should be more targeted or whole society? I think it's important that they've started with the whole society. Eventually it will need to get targeted, but I think that it's important that we have an overview first, and then we hone in on what the real issue is. Right, so were not going to be leaving anyone behind here if it's not targeted at the beginning? I don't believe so. OK. So, you're a suicide survivor. Why is it important to have people with lived experience on both the Mental Health and Wellbeing Commission and also in the Suicide Prevention Office? I think that it's really hard to restructure something or a system that you've never been in. I think lived experience is so important because a lot of even the clinicians don't know what it's like to be on the other side. So having that lived experience is so vital if we want to actually see change that is going to be beneficial for this nation. Right, so from what you've seen so far, is there enough of that in these boards that are being set up, the commission that's been set up? Definitely not. Not? OK. I think that there's sections of it that's great, and people have been consulted. But I think, looking at the board that's been appointed, I still think we are lacking lived experience. So there is, as far as I can see, one member who has lived experience on that particular commission. You want a lot more than that? Definitely. The people that I deal with ` I could not tell you how many times a week I call the police, how many times a week I'm on the phone to the crisis team, how many times we've been turned away, saying, 'Come back when you've tried to kill yourself.' And so I think that it takes someone who's been in that position to know what is actually wrong and then how to fix it. OK, all right. You're heading off to the UN next week to launch a global mental health campaign. So what does that actually involve? It's the world's first ever global mental health campaign. So, there's 15 countries on it; it's called Speak Your Mind. And it's a nationally driven, globally-led campaign, and it's all about ` every 40 seconds someone takes their life around the world. So we're encouraging people around the world to speak their mind for 40 seconds to their leaders about what they want to see change around the world. Right, so, 40 seconds is like a social media campaign, is it an advertising campaign? How does it work? Social media campaign as well as advertising campaign as well. There's some pretty huge names that have come on board with it all around the world. And, yeah, so we'll be launching it on the 23rd of September. So when will we know who is actually involved along with you? We can announce it, I believe, on the 23rd, when it is launched. And why you? How did you get involved in this? I had a meeting with the CEO of United for Global Mental Health over in London, and she pitched the idea of this campaign. And immediately myself and my co-founder were, like, This is something that we want to do. There's always, I think, kind of country-led campaigns, but it's so important to, look, that this is a worldwide issue; this isn't a single country issue. So it's important we address it together. All right, so speaking of the country-led review and the country-led focus, we've had a big week of mental health announcements, which is positive ` you would say that? Yes. But is there anything missing apart from the amount of lived experience on, say, the Mental Health Commission? I think it's just really going into the details of it. You know, were looking at things like the HIPs that are going to get put in all the GP clinics, the mental health professionals. And you look at it, it's a fantastic idea, but there's no money for infrastructure, so the clinics that don't have rooms for people to actually go, one of the HIPS to go in. When you say HIPs, what's a HIP? It's the health professional, so it's the people that the GPs will be walking them down to their office if they come in with a mental health issue. Which is a fantastic idea, but it's looking at, actually, how is this going to roll out? But I think it's going to do well. So the expenditure that's been announced so far is not very much, is it? No. No, OK. And so you'd like to see a lot more? Yes. But you're hopeful that there will be more? Yeah, I'm very hopeful. OK. But last time you were on this show you said our mental health system only works if you are rich or dying. Is this giving you any hope? The early intervention stuff, yes. I think a lot has changed since I was last on this show, and I'm very thankful for that. I was thinking back to myself when I was in the psych ward, and what would my teenage self think of everything that was happening? And she's so thankful. She's so thankful that we are now looking at things like early intervention, because I had asked for help when I was 12 years old, when I was first suicidal. If I had been offered it back then, I think it would have saved me years of heartache and psych wards and suicide attempts. So I'm hopeful. All right, well, all the best of luck at the United Nations next week. Thanks very much, Jazz Thornton, for coming on the show. Thank you so much. All right, coming up, our panel on the highs and lows of the week in politics. Plus, we speak to the spokesperson for Al Noor Mosque six months on from the worst terrorist act that New Zealand has ever seen. Welcome back. Tomorrow marks six months since the March 15 Christchurch terrorist attack on two mosques, in which 51 people died. It was the worst act of terrorism in New Zealand history, a day Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has described as one of New Zealand's darkest. # La ilaha illallah. # We have shown that New Zealand is unbreakable... and that the world can see in us... an example of love and unity. (CAT STEVENS 'WHERE DO THE CHILDREN PLAY?') When the shooting started, she organised the ladies and children to go out. She was leading them. She was the one in front. The other ladies were behind her. So... amazing. Amazing. My husband and son, they gave up their lives to save other people. We cannot know your grief, but we can walk with you at every stage. We can and we will surround you with aroha. # Welcome home. # From the bottom of our hearts. # So, half a year on, how well are we doing as a nation in supporting the grieving community? Watching that with me is the spokesperson for Al Noor Mosque, Tony Green. Welcome to the show. Thank you for your time this morning. Six months on since the attack, so how is the Christchurch Muslim community faring? It's a disarmingly simple question to a pretty complex thing. So, there is the community, and the community is made up of individuals, each one of whom has a different perspective on all of this, physically, emotionally, spiritually. And then the whole thing has ramifications because it radiates out, because where people were saying, 'This is not us,' in terms of identity, it's also not just us, in terms of ramifications, because of the very, very international nature of how this has come to be. Yes, OK, but in terms of the local community, what are the ongoing issues there? They vary. We had, yesterday, over this weekend, Tributes of Aroha in the art gallery. I met one of the ladies there who lost her husband, and she was able to smile. The smile is on the outside. We know that we have people who think of their own houses now, and they keep seeing the missing one, the one who's not there. I made the announcement after Friday prayers about the fact that Christchurch Hospital has an ongoing thing now on monitoring lead levels in the blood, because there are people carrying around lots of bits and pieces of stuff, which is more` it can't really be taken out, because it would cause more stress. We have people with very, very serious nerve damage. So it's constant pain. And then you've got the` So that's the individual. Then there's the wider thing. We're healing, but healing the heart takes its own time. It doesn't go in sync with the calendar. What about the welfare of the children and young people? Again, again, again, these things take time. Yesterday at the art gallery, I saw people there taking a photograph of all these tribute walls, and there was a picture of their own son, who got killed, and his sister. And you can't help looking at that and being disturbed by it. It takes time. Is the six-month thing just too soon? Should we be doing this kind of commemoration now? Does that sit uncomfortably, or is it OK with the Muslim community? For us, really, we don't see things in those terms. So the three month or the six month or the one year, when any thing of grief happens to a Muslim, we say, 'Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un.' 'From the one we come, and to the one we return.' It's a bit like the biblical, 'From dust we came and to dust we return.' So we don't see things in terms of anniversaries like this. So with the greatest of respect, it's more for the external world. Right. OK. There was a global surge of support for the Muslim community post the attack, but there's also sort of been a spike in hate speech and hate crime. What are you noticing in your daily lives? I'm probably the wrong person to ask ` this skin colour. Yeah, I understand. So, the kinds of things that have gone on do still go on. I think it has possibly flushed a lot to the surface that was latent or simmering. But the balance of things, as well, is remarkable. These are the things that are not seen. We have had floods of people coming into the mosque and bursting into tears. We had a guy some weeks ago who came in, burst into tears. He went away, came back with $2000 to give. We had a young lady from Idaho, in the States, came in, in tears, followed by a woman from Melbourne, in tears. They hugged one another. Somehow, the whole experience was speaking as a kind of experiential metaphor to people globally who were thinking this cannot go on. We had a French family ` mother, father, her father and three children. She then sent me an email to say she was very moved by the reception, moved by the generosity of the community, and that they were travelling around the world to try to develop with their children un grand coeur, a big heart, open to diversity. So, as you say, it has touched that chord in the global community. There's also the fight against online hate and online hate speech. And that's the Christchurch Call, which Jacinda Ardern is going to the UN to announce some details of this week. But how did it feel this week to hear the Leader of the Opposition say that most Kiwis don't care about the Christchurch Call? Yeah, I don't want to get too much into that. I don't know whether it's true or not. And I think sometimes, when things are remote, and they become remote either in terms of distance you are from it, or in terms of time, we've seen a spike in mental health issues, people troubled by this sort of thing. Finding that you're older than you once were means that you're now` and reminded ` as we have been by the earthquakes and by this ` that your life is finite and it can end, it's a huge reminder. So I'm in a space where I think, what good can I do? And so, when Simon Bridges spoke like that, I don't really want to get into that. I say, 'OK, fine,' because there will be different opinions. All right. But one thing you do want to point out, or one thing you do want to raise is while we're looking at this six months on, you're concerned and want to put a call out regarding how people should respond. Yeah, we've seen copycat issues in Norway and in other places ` in California and so on ` people inspired by what this guy did on the 15th of March. I've spoken to a number of people in our community, and the one thing that they do not want is revenge attacks for Christchurch. That is very, very clear. We do not want some` One lady ` I was in Singapore when this thing happened. I came back two weeks later. When I finally got to see her` She called me on the day and she said, 'Have you seen him?' and named him. And I said, 'No, because I'm overseas.' When I got back, I saw her, and she said, 'He never came home.' And that is as stark as it is. So we do not want it to happen to a Jewish community, a Hindu community, a Christian, anybody. And so we do not want anybody to go out there and say, 'In revenge for what this man did, 'I'm going to now attack somebody.' I don't think any of the people in our community who lost loved ones want that at all. They would never sanction that. How is it that a community can take that stance when such hurt has been put upon it? The French lady I mentioned, when she wrote, she said she was touched by the dignity of our community. And that, to me, begs questions about how we come to a situation where people are surprised by dignity. How do we get to that point? There's an American scholar called Hamza Yusuf, and he's spoken about Muslims as being there, having an identity theft situation, so that people who appear like you, who speak like you in some respects, who quote from verses you quote from, can then do things which are absolutely abhorrent and against everything you feel. That image of Muslims that's been portrayed unwittingly or consciously in the media has something to say very much about this. Right. OK. We're going to leave it there. Tony Green, thank you so much for coming up to see us today. That's Tony Green, spokesperson for Al Noor Mosque. Up next, our panel, Aliya Danzeisen, Lance Norman and Heather Roy. Plus, Dr Sylvia Nissen on a new dawn in New Zealand student activism. Lance Norman, Head of Equity at ProCare, and former ACT MP Heather Roy. Thank you very much for your time this morning. I'm going to go to you first, Heather. You worked in parliament for quite a while. Is it plausible the Prime Minister did not know about the serious sexual assault allegations against her party and office? Well, it's certainly possible, but it doesn't feel plausible to me. You know, parliament's` And why do you say that? Parliament's a very small community. It's hard to keep a secret there. Everybody knows what's going on. People know who this person is, and for the Prime Minister to claim that she, firstly, didn't know that the concerns were of a sexual nature, and secondly, that the person working in her office, she didn't realise that they'd gone on gardening leave for the last five weeks, there's certainly serious disconnects there. Just on that, though, the person working in the office was actually in a separate building, not in the actual office in the Beehive. So there is a distinction there. That's true, but they were still part of the leader's office. And to not know, when key people in her office knew, means either that they're not relaying information as they should to her, so there's question marks over their behaviour and what they're passing on. But it just doesn't feel right. Is it not possible that staff have purposely withheld this kind of information to protect the Prime Minister? That's possible. That's possible. But again, she made it very clear after the Labour summer camps episode that she was not to have information withheld from her. OK. So if they've made that decision, that's wrong. OK. And I think, look, Parliament's a very tribal place. You questioned Paula Bennett very hard on whether her motivation was political, basically, is what you were asking. I was, yeah. And there will be some of that. But for Labour Party members and staffers to have tried to raise issues through their own party and felt that they were coming up against brick walls and feeling the need to go to a senior opposition MP is really quite something. OK, well, let's talk about Paula Bennett there. She is saying that she's doing it on behalf of the complainants. Do you believe that? I think there's always an element of political positioning any time you have a National-Labour sort of conversation. But she has shown a bit of leadership there by standing up and saying, 'Well, actually, people did come to me 'and I do have an obligation to accelerate this further up.' So I'm actually proud that she's done that, because otherwise who would be the voice for the people who weren't looking after them? It is plausible, too, about being misled. Um... The Prime Minister is not there all the time, and it is a big facility. But the other aspect was I understood that she didn't understand it was sexual in nature. Yeah, right. The allegations. She may have been aware of the allegations, and when you're moving through things... And, given` You know, I have said to the Prime Minister and I've said to several ministers in the last three months, that you're only as good as the people below you. And that's where she has to get it right, and everybody, not just` The National Party, the ACT Party, the Greens and Labour have to get it right with who are below them and working for them. Aliya, do you believe that this has damaged Jacinda Arden's brand as a caring, kind prime minister? We'll see what the facts are when they come out. But I've found her to be very caring. And I've found her to be very authentic in this process, even though we've had some quite challenging conversations and very direct conversations. And I've found her reaction to be authentic. And that was not necessarily` I think politicians can be politicians and also be good people. And I've found that not just with her party, but several in other parties. But the buck does stop with her, and she talks a lot about transparency, and she went to the United Nations saying 'Me Too is We Too.' Yeah. And if you really believe those things, you've got to be then making sure the information's being fed through to you as it should be. And that leadership quality, I think has been damaged. So, she seems to be... Well, she says she's very upset about this, Lance. Are we believing her? And it's just going to dog her when she goes to the international stage yet again? Yeah, I mean, she is a lovely person and she is very empathetic. But she either needs to know or she needs to surround herself with people who keep her informed. But it is a bit` for one party who's had problems as well to be saying, 'Oh, shame on you and you should resign,' when they didn't resign. It is a bit... Politically convenient. Yes. Let's move on to Christchurch. So, six months on, Aliya, is the government doing enough down there? I mean, they announced some more mental health funding and support, but is enough support being given down in Christchurch? It's a nuanced situation. This is on a level that, obviously, New Zealand hasn't seen in recent times. And is it enough? We're talking that string issue again. It was really good to hear of the extra funding this week, in particular. Because we... It's across the board; it's not just the Muslim community. There were first responders that are dealing with things, there are kids in school, regarding safety, and even nationwide that we're dealing with, but the level that it is to families ` when people look at our community, so there were 50 people who died, 51, rather, and then 50 who were injured there. That's 100 people ` for our community, that's one in 500 people. And if you take the people who were present, we're getting down to one in 10 people that were directly impacted. So many people. And post-traumatic stress is showing up, and it will across the board. More probably could be done, but it was really, really good to hear today, or yesterday, that there's additional funding. Right, OK. Is the bureaucracy, though, sometimes getting in the way? Because the visas that were proposed by Iain Lees-Galloway have been denied by cabinet. So is bureaucracy getting in the way of actually helping? Um, yeah, a bit. They've gotta understand the problems, and that's why they've gotta have people in the know in the room, at the table, making those decisions and helping them make those decisions. So, to understand how our community works, where you have a widow who does traditionally rely on family members a lot, they need somebody in support, and it's not just one widow. It's many widows. We're talking 25 that do need a family support member. Other things obviously have been happening, so new gun laws are being put in place, new gun laws announced yesterday aimed at stopping guns falling into the hands of criminals. A firearms registry, shorter licences. Do you think that's going to work, Heather? I personally don't think a gun registry is going to work. I think that it's been tried elsewhere. You spend a lot of money, and the law-abiding citizens always comply with these initiatives. Those who have always broken the law don't. We look at microchipping of dogs as a very good example of that. And I think that what we need to be really careful of in the aftermath of tragic events like the 15th of March, is that we don't penalise law-abiding citizens. That's a very hard` Yes, you're right, it's a hard line to get right. But I think the first wave of changes to the gun laws was right, and the government had New Zealanders on side, even those who use guns a lot and use weapons, but I think that we are bordering now on going to far and penalising people who are law-abiding who shouldn't be. OK, Aliya. If you're law-abiding, you can put your name in and say, 'I have a gun.' That's all it takes. It takes one form to fill in and say you're doing it. And there's no problem with registering people to say 'I have a gun.' What does that hurt, the government knowing you have a gun? Great. If someone invaded your house and they knew you had a gun in there, great. The government knows it. The point is, the law-abiding do that? Those who have ulterior motives don't. But it doesn't hurt. And they don't cover this. They cost a lot of money that could be used sometimes on better things. But it could protect us, and I don't see a problem with somebody putting in a form that they've got and we've got a database. I'm gonna have to leave it there, because we're just out of time on that particular topic. We'll come back to you on the Sunday panel. Thank you very much for the moment. Students, we're gonna move on to them now. They've had an image problem of being hedonistic and only concerned about where the next keg is coming from. But New Zealand has also had a long tradition of serious student protest, and some say we're seeing a new dawn of activism on big issues like free speech and climate change. (BLAM BLAM BLAM'S 'NO DEPRESSION IN NEW ZEALAND') When can we expect our troops back from Vietnam? At the earliest appropriate time consistent with our obligations. # There's no depression in New Zealand. And a short while a go, they marched past the main gates and then just a few seconds later, we saw them pouring through the crowd and on to the grounds. CROWD CHANT: One, two, three, four, we don't want no racist tour. The people united... Stand up, fight back! # There's no unrest in this country. # We have no... # racism. # We have no... # sexism, sexism, no, no. # Everybody's talking about World War 3. CROWD CHANT: Liberate Hong Kong! Liberate Hong Kong! # Everybody's talking about World War 3, but we're as safe as safe can be. # There's no unrest in this country. # Stand up, fight back! When our future is under attack, what do we do? Stand up, fight back! When the Earth we live on is under attack, what do we do? Stand up, fight back! Well, Dr Sylvia Nissen has just written a book called Student Political Action in New Zealand. I asked her whether issues like climate change, Hong Kong and free speech are stimulating a resurgence. I think absolutely. It's a really exciting time in student politics. And it's really important to remember that it's only a few years ago that the main ways that were talking about these students were is apathetic. Right. But that's not the case still? You dont think so? It's not still, and it wasn't then either. And that's a key part of what this book really does is look beneath the surface of this sort of perceived apathy and look at some of the aspirations and frustrations of those students. All right. Well, well get to those specifics in a moment. But at the moment what were seeing, this resurgence, are they actually affecting real change? I think, absolutely in the sense that it's really reimagining power and who has it and trying to shift that balance of power. One of the things when I spoke to students as part of this research is students did feel really excluded from politics and political institutions and organisations, and I think a big part of the activism were seeing coming through now is trying to shift that balance of power. Right. So, in terms of change, we've seen examples where protestors have objected to certain people having speaking rights - like Don Brash - and they've been de-platformed, in a way. Is that real change or is that just outrage? I think it's manifested in many different ways. We've also got the students who have been protesting to get New Zealand history taught in schools or what's happened in Ihumatao or what's happened with the climate strikes. So, see it as a broad platform of activism. Why do you think that activism is actually good for society, then? Because just look back. So many of the substantial changes we've had in New Zealand and globally have been driven by activists and activism. What's wrong with students just studying? Is there an expectation that they have to be active? I think a lot of the expectation is actually imposed by us and a lot of our assumptions about what students are. The idea of a student activist is actually a relatively recent one. We only really started putting those words together from the 1960s. Nevertheless, it's a really important part of becoming a student, in a way now. And a lot of the students, when I interviewed them, spoke about how they thought they went to university wanting to be part of that type of activism. But some of those people that you talked to said that they couldn't really feel like they could take part, so what are some of the things and were and are holding students back from being involved? There are many challenges, and they are still very much present. I undertook these interviews in 2015, but I think these still very much exist. And one of the biggest ones is student debt. And we often talk about student debt as something that affects students either before study or after study, but a lot of my work is really looking at those effects during study. They're really significant for political action, but also it's a wellbeing issue for student wellbeing. So, why during study is debt an issue? What is it about having debt during study that's holding these people back from being involved? So, you end up with, really, two tiers of participation. So, some students are able to fully participate academically, socially and politically, but others aren't cos they're working very, very long hours in addition to study or care work to try and make ends meet. And those are circumstances that haven't been there previously. And in a way, when it comes to debt, were driving blind. We haven't really been doing the work that we need to do to look at those effects during study. So, there's a lot of work to be done there. OK. So, you suggest four things in your book to improve student political participation. The first one is lower the voting age to what, and why would you want to do that? Yeah. So, the age that's usually given is to lower to 16 - there's arguments to be made to go even lower - and there's lots of fantastic reasons out there why you should lower the voting age. But from the perspective of the students I interviewed in my book, it's simply by the time students had got to university, they were very disillusioned with the extent to which their voice mattered to those in parliament. And lowering the voting age to 16 or 15 or however low you want to go, it's a really powerful signal to say that your voice matters. The counter-argument to that is that these people have not had life experience, so why should we be listening to them? Yes. And I'd say pick up a copy and read the perspectives of the students I was speaking to cos it's very hard to listen to what they are saying - to genuinely listen to it and be able to say that they dont know much about these issues. OK. What about the political parties and the political institutions themselves? Do they see students as being a valuable asset or just manpower or womanpower? I'd like to think they do. But certainly, a lot of the students I spoke to were quite disillusioned with the extent to which they felt they mattered to these political parties. And so, I think there is just a real case for taking a hard look at ourselves. So, what should the political parties be doing? Should they be listening to them all? Just listen. Just listen. It seems basic, but it's not done enough. OK. Also, is there a business wall there from the tertiary institutions' perspective? Is student activism risky to a bottom line of a competitive university? There is an aspect of that in there. But I think as well universities are amazing places for bringing people together, and they're not necessarily doing that as much as they could be any more. And one of the really concerning things that I found interviewing students was the number of students who told me, 'I haven't made friends until my third year.' Because? Because they're working long hours or there has been cuts to field work and tutorial, which means they go to these large lectures and then they go home. There's not cheap transport. So, it's all the basic things, but they're increasingly lacking. And so, there is really important work to be done by universities to better support students in this space. Just finally, you talked a lot about how student debt holds them back. If you got rid of that debt, would we see a rise in political activism? It's not a silver bullet, so I dont know. But it's a wellbeing issue, and were not treating it that way. At the moment, were treating it as something that students will pay off in the long run and they'll be fine, but they're not necessarily. And one of the most concerning things I found ` apart from not making friends until their third year ` was I had two thirds of students saying that they were worried about the wellbeing of their peers. We've got a problem, and we need to start treating it seriously. OK. Sylvia Nissen, thank you very much for your time this morning. Thank you, Simon. All right, stay with us. We're back after the break. Welcome back. And we're back with our panel, Aliya Danzeisen, Lance Norman and Heather Roy. Lance, first to you, on the mental health announcements this week. They're going to be rolling out front-line mental health support. ProCare, your organisation, is involved. But how is that actually going to happen on the ground? So, it's going to require a big workforce. So there's a health improvement practitioner role, there's a health coach role and a community support worker role, so there will need to be a lot of workforce investment. Where are those people going to come from? They're already there. They're in the NGO sector, they're in the social services sector, they're in the health sector, they're in the teaching and education sector. So they just need some modifications and some skill sets to actually lead them into this workforce. So, Heather, how important is it that we have this idea of prevention, or getting involved early? I think that Jazz made the point that early intervention is key. And it absolutely is. If we can identify problems early and treat them well, that prevents all sorts of things happening further down the track. My concern is we've now got a Mental Health and Well-being Commission being announced. The old one was abandoned in 2012 because it really wasn't achieving very much. So I hope we're not just going to be going around in a vicious circle there. We've got a Suicide Prevention Office. But we've also got a Ministry of Health that really should be covering all of those areas. So, you know, the really hard thing for governments is to move away from those policy initiatives and get over that speed bump that allow actions and the community to be able to access. Delivery into the community. And Aliya, you were making the point that delivery, prevention, but also the well-being focus is what really matters there. It's really positive, in the sense of looking at us as being healthy individuals, and promoting that health, and also that we respond to the cultures and the uniqueness coming into our offices ` and they're trying to train and bring that` That's one component that's really positive in this as well. We'll have people who know who they're working with and who can inspire people to be better. OK, so big announcements there. We'll see whether they can deliver. Let's talk on another issue this week. Simon Bridges was in China. He sort of lavished praise on the Communist Party, but at the same time he was making comments about the Christchurch Call. Aliya, you're a bit upset about this. I'm not upset. I just found it quite ironic that Simon Bridges would criticise the Prime Minister for going overseas and asking people to support us when he himself this week did the same thing. He had dialogue in China, and I believe diplomacy is really important with our international partners. But you shouldn't be criticising the Prime Minster for doing the same thing. And she is actually making progress. She's got people on board that are surprisingly on board ` companies and countries ` and she's doing a good job in that area. All right, but Heather, Simon Bridges was in China. Did he strike the right tone while he was there? He was meeting with the person responsible for secret police. He had Gerry Brownlee, his SIS spokesperson with him. Was that the right tone? Certainly, it hasn't come across well. But what we don't know is how that trip was put together, and what he was instructed to do, and what he wasn't able to do. So, look, I'm not sure that I can comment without knowing that detail. But should he have had`? But did that look right? Well, I don't think they struck the right chord. Because what about trade? Trade is the most important thing to New Zealanders. Trade is. Yeah, it absolutely is. Did he ask for trade to be included in that? We don't know. And there were things in the conversation he could have with the people he met with. And what he said is really important, because we have people, for example, human rights around the board that we want to make sure everybody in legal enforcement, whether in China or around the world, are following. So, Lance, did he miss an opportunity there? I think he's probably done an opportunity, but he's also missed an opportunity. Because we don't know ` we're actually not sure what the discussions were ` it's hard to answer that question. OK. The final thing we want to talk about is the history in schools. It's going to be compulsory in three years' time. How big a deal is this, Lance? It's a massive deal. When I heard that, I was sad. I was happy, and I was also sad. (LAUGHTER) I was sad, firstly, because te reo Maori used to be` it was actually illegal to speak Maori in New Zealand, so that made me sad. It made me happy that we're actually bringing it back to teach our New Zealand history in our schools. But it also made me sad that it's three years away. So, one of the issues we have in our country is we have institutional racism across health, education, social services. And it's because we haven't taught the history of our country. Therefore, we don't have an appreciation of some of the issues that particularly Maori and some of our communities have incurred. Ultimately, I'm happy. (LAUGHTER) Wow, it was a long time to get to saying you're happy. Heather, are you happy that it's going to be compulsory. I think that it's important that New Zealanders know the history of their country. And there's all sorts of things that are touched on in the curriculum but not delved into in detail. And we made the point before, when we were talking off camera, there's all sorts of other things that we should be very proud of as well, that should be highlighted more. So things like the splitting of the atom and Earnest Rutherford` So positive things. Absolutely. They shouldn't all be negative. Aliya, in terms of that institutionalised racism, is that a concern from your community, that that kind of history isn't`? History informs us and helps us understand who we are, but also where we want to be and what we want to be. And I think it's excellent. It surprised me when I moved to New Zealand, so many people didn't know the history. I actually often knew more about New Zealand history than people who were here before I migrated. And understanding breeds tolerance, which is very important looking forward. Well, especially at the moment, seeing what we're commemorating or looking at this weekend. I think always, not just at the moment. Always, it's important that we carry that forward. And history will always have a role that we can learn from. Thank you very much to the panel, Aliya, Lance and Heather, this morning. Kia ora. Well, it was another tumultuous week in the House, with jeers, tears and everything in between. Here's Finn Hogan with the week that was in Wellington. Well, Jacinda Ardern might be having an awful week, but it's no picnic being Simon Bridges, either. I viewed the most extraordinary interview I think I have ever seen the leader of a National Party give, Mr Speaker, during which his praise for the Chinese Communist Party went to a level that even the most members of that party would struggle with. I think Mr Bridges needs to take another look at that interview, or perhaps buy a different hat. But Grant Robertson did end up pushing the Speaker's patience a little too far. I make those decisions. And giving me advice to do something tends to head me in the contrary direction. (LAUGHTER) So the Member might have just caused disadvantage to his own team. But amongst the usual political sparring, a moving speech from Nanaia Mahuta about the historic pardon granted to Rua Kenana. It acknowledges that Nga Toenga o Nga Tamariki a Iharaira, including the descendants of Rua Kenana, TEARFULLY: ...have suffered ongoing hurt, shame, stigma as a result of the Maungapohatu invasion. A powerful end to Te Wiki o te Reo Maori. And that's all from us for now. Don't forget, the show is available as a podcast on Spotify, Google, iTunes or wherever you get yours. Thank you for watching, and we'll see you again next weekend. Captions by Able Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2019 This programme was made with the assistance of the NZ On Air Platinum Fund.