Today on Newshub Nation ` Race Relations Commissioner Meng Foon on holding the government to account a year on from the Christchurch terrorist attack. Police Commissioner Mike Bush reflects on the day that changed policing in New Zealand forever. And Backstory ` Golriz Ghahraman and the Iranian childhood that shaped her politics. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 Kia ora. Good morning. I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. In political news this week, New Zealand's Minister for Children, Tracy Martin, is in isolation after potentially coming into contact with COVID-19. Martin met Australia's Minister for Home Affairs Peter Dutton in Washington DC for 90 minutes last week. He has since been hospitalised with the virus. Tracy Martin is undergoing testing. And COVID-19, now officially a global pandemic, has plunged world economies into chaos. The DOW fell 10% on Thursday ` its worse crash since Black Monday in 1987. BNZ economists say a recession is now probable. And in response to the virus, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has indicated the government will tighten travel restrictions. Work is also underway on a financial relief package, including a wage subsidy scheme for affected businesses. More detail is expected next week. And the government has unlocked an additional $10 million for drought-stricken farmers across the country this week. $3 million is pegged specifically for Northland, with $7 million for the rest of the North Island. One year on, the spotlight has returned to Christchurch as we remember those lost and those injured in the terrorist attack on two mosques. The prime minister said, 'They are us.' 'They' being the victims, the widows, children and extended families. So, one year on, has New Zealand made them feel like us? I spoke to community worker Zhiyan Basharati and widow Ambreen Naeem. Yeah. I was saying to my son, 'I can't imagine 'how was it before 'and a life full of love 'and care.' Yes, we are still getting love and care, but it's in a different way ` not... how it was before ` so it's a big change. Ambreen lost her husband Naeem and eldest son Talha at Al Noor Mosque. Naeem is a hero ` a man who tried to stop the gunman, a man honoured in Pakistan with the highest civil award for bravery and whose deeds inspired this mural. But home was where he and his son meant the most. In fact, taking charge of everything at home, from earning for the house, to... to pick and drop my little son, playing with him, doing the groceries and the household chores. He was amazing, and my husband, he was a big support for me. And... you can imagine how would it be without him, without my husband. Ambreen is one of 40 bereaved widows, sisters and daughters. They are the shahid families ` families of the martyrs. She has had to adapt, learn to drive, be independent, but the biggest problem is money. Both her husband and engineer son worked, but Ambreen's ACC compensation is only based on her husband's part-time wage. Is that enough? No. No, it's not enough. It just... It just covers my rent. Not even covers the whole rent, and nothing for groceries or my utility bills. How do you keep going, then? Well, at the moment, Work and Income is supporting us. Are you worried that once the spotlight leaves, the support will leave? Of course, there is a worry. Zhiyan Basharati has been helping the widows with driving lessons, housing, dealing with government agencies. For years, we've been advocating for issues surrounding mental health, issues surrounding employment. And... it should not take a shooting for us to wake up and realise... what the gaps and the barriers are in the community. Zhiyan's Christchurch Victims Organising Committee is run from a free room in the community centre ` the Phillipstown Hub ` the same place Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern met the victims' families the day after the attacks. You were quick to mention that this is not the New Zealand that you know, and I want to reaffirm that today. This is not New Zealand. Since that day, Zhiyan and her volunteers have been advocating for victims to be heard, to be compensated, for special residency visas for overseas family members. Do you think since the March 15 shooting that the community has become more inclusive or less? Now that we... are inclusive in the community, we see a lot of ethnic minorities and a lot of different people working together. But if we look into the system ` the health system, our education system, our work force ` this is where we need to ask the questions ` are we inclusive enough? What do you mean by that? I don't think we are. Zhiyan Basharati says the pressing issues are ongoing mental health support and jobs. After the shootings, family members left their homes and careers and countries to move to Christchurch to support the shahid families. They can now apply for residency, but that doesn't mean work follows. I really hope we... can get... a recruitment agency involved in trying to... bring some normality back to these families, because they have been out of work for about a year. If we are not open into integrating the people who come into the country, then there is a fear that down the track, people, if they don't know one another, of course, there's gonna be conflict. If neighbours don't trust one another because they don't know who this ethnic minority is or who this Muslim is that is living next to them, there is that perception that minority groups have brought this type of behaviour into the country. And we live here. We are part of New Zealand. We are Kiwis. So, one message to the people who say, 'Get over it. Let's move on.' What do you say to them? We can only move on together. Ambreen Naeem lives with her two surviving sons ` 20-year-old Abdullah and 6-year-old Ayaan. She needs money but can't go back to work. Yeah, it's very hard for me. I can't even imagine. At the moment, like, my son has been through a lot. Though, I think he's amazing the way he has coped with all this. But still, he's a little child. He has a little heart, and I would like to support him. And yet, despite the tragedy, loss, and hardship, Ambreen is not bitter. But my opinion... is that... the March 15 has brought everything to surface. The people that who were... who had love in their hearts, and they... they believed in inclusiveness, they are... they are showing their expressions. And the people who have hatred in their hearts, they have also... it has come to the surface. So it has almost exposed everyone. Ambreen Naeem ending that story there. If you've got something to say about what you see on our show, please let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram ` NewshubNationNZ. Our Twitter panel this week is Mark Thomas and Tim McCready. They're using the hashtag #nationnz or you can email us at... Still to come ` we dissect the week's political news with our panel. Plus ` Race Relations Commissioner Meng Foon on how he'll be holding politicians to account this election. Welcome back. Before the break, we saw members of the Christchurch Muslim community calling for inclusiveness. The person charged with promoting that is Race Relations Commissioner Meng Foon. I began by asking him whether, a year on, we can still believe the Prime Minister's statement straight after the attacks that 'this is not New Zealand.' This is not New Zealand, and she is right in terms of values and principles. Very important that... It does happen in New Zealand, though, unfortunately. It can happen anywhere, and so... we have a strong focus in ensuring that harmonious communities are advocated and enhanced throughout our nation. Because the phrase 'this is not New Zealand' ` is it just a way of showing that we don't really want to acknowledge that this is New Zealand, this actually is New Zealand now? Well, this is New Zealand, but this is not the New Zealand that we want. OK. Isn't it? It's a peaceful, harmonious community that we like to actually aim for, and however, these... terrible things do happen in our country. We did see an immense outpouring of compassion after March 15. At the same time, has your office seen, like, a spike in racist behaviour or racist complaints in the last year? There's` It's been consistent. I'm going to say it's been consistent ` from hate crime reports and also through our info line, and it has been consistent. So when you say consistent, you mean post-March 15 and pre-March 15, is that what you're talking about? Yeah. Yeah. OK. There's around about 5000 complaints regarding racial discrimination, and there's a few hundred in Islamic phobia, and so it's been fairly consistent. OK, so they haven't risen. In terms of other areas of racial complaints that you're talking about ` so several hundred for Islamophobia ` what is the most common form of racial complaint? The most common form,... really, is street and workplace discrimination. Right. And so it's very important that we're actually asking the police and the government to actually... for the government to actually make separate legislation for hate crime and also for the police to collect data on hate crime and hate speech so we actually know where we are and where to apply the resources. Yeah, so` That's right. So without those kinds of data, without that kind of data collection, we don't have an idea of how prevalent racism ` say Islamophobia or whatever form it takes ` is in the community? We do have an indication through the Human Rights Commission. So, there's disabilities and race... racial discrimination are the highest of all the categories in the Human Rights Commission. At the moment, those racially motivated attacks are recorded as common assault, but there's no, as you say, specific categories. Are you saying there should be? How have other countries managed to do this and we don't? Well, I've done some research, and 12 OECD countries ` Germany, Australia ` they do have hate crime legislation separate from adding it on to another crime, and so that's very important for the government to actually legislate and follow the lead of other countries. And maybe it's because it's gone under the radar, because this... massacre, murder, has not happened in New Zealand like it has on March 15, so it is time for that. Yeah, so if ever there's a time, you'd say it's now? And same with the gun reforms. You know, automatic weapons, they're all banned now. So it has been... Do you think there's a sense of urgency to get on with this? If we've done the guns, but we haven't done the hate crime... Is there a sense of urgency here? Yeah. Well, the Minister of Justice is actually reviewing that at the present time, and I think they will be due a statement soon, but they also could be waiting for the Royal Commission on the... March 15th... massacre. OK. Can I move on to something else? Shane Jones on this programme made comments about Indian students ruining our tertiary institutions. Now, you've called those racist, so what kind of effect do those comments like that have on the country, have on New Zealanders? Well, it's very demeaning, and, by choosing a particular race, is harmful, and, you know, in other times, it's been Chinese, it's been Pacific people, it's been Muslim people. And so it's very important that people in leadership actually show some good values and actually choose the issue of the day rather than choosing the people, because that's being mean. OK. Well, you talk about leaders showing the way. Are you disappointed that the Prime Minister has refused to call those remarks racist? Well, that's up to her what her interpretation is, but definitely from my office, it is a racist comment. Do you think that she should be tougher? Yeah, I think she could be. Right. So Shane Jones getting away with it again, and you'd like to see the Prime Minister actually step up to the mark? Well, I don't think he's got away with it, because we've called it out, and other community leaders have called it out, and now he's actually changed his tune a bit. Right. So you think he's backing away as a result of your influence? Well, he's moderating, and he's actually dealing with the issue at the present time, and the issue is immigration, which is a big topic for our country. And which we are going to see a lot more of in this election year. So what are your concerns about that? Well, one of the things that we are going to do, or I'm doing to do, is actually write an open letter to the presidents and the leaders of all political parties when the election campaign starts and announce... give them the opportunity to read that first and then publish it in the newspaper so that it is a transparent of the values that we expect, or my office expects, from the politicians or want-to-be politicians. So you're putting the politicians on notice that you want a clean election campaign, really? Yeah. Clean. Not to deal with any racist issues or choosing LGBT or choosing disabilities as a vote gainer. Right. Definitely deal with the issue, and definitely, I will call you out, or call the people out, should they actually break those rules. OK. Well, what about one of the politicians ` ACT leader David Seymour? He doesn't want hate speech to be a criminal act. He's fighting against that proposal, which is under review at the moment by, you say, the Justice Minister. What do you think of that? Well, you've got to ask David ` does he actually support hate speech that incites violence, hate speech that actually could cause people to commit suicide, hate speech that actually could cause harm to people? And so... You know, there is` 12 other countries have done this, and so why don't we actually try and project a safer country going into the future? We're not saying stop freedom of speech. Freedom of speech, definitely. Deal with the issue. But not on hate speech, when you're going to say, 'I am going to kill somebody,' or incite violence. Right. How effective can you be on tackling that without the social media giants playing a bigger role in cracking down on, say, hate speech online? Well, definitely, if that particular legislation comes to Parliament, we will be making a strong submission, and we will be getting a coalition of people to actually make strong submissions on the piece of policy that's coming through... Sure. And` ...and support hate speech legislation. And also on the social media front, there has been a lot of conversations. Before, there was zero. And the Prime Minister has called the Call of Christchurch,... Yeah. ...and ensured that the various channels are talking to themselves. And I was at a.... a meeting yesterday with dotNZ, and they're looking at ` what are the values that we want to portray in terms of social media and the use of the internet and their web pages? Yeah, but do we have the power? We are just a small country down at the bottom of the Pacific. Do we have the power to curb this kind of influence that these massive companies have? Look, other countries have been very strong, like Germany and the US. They actually can push the button, and there are massive fines. It's not just tens of thousands; it's actually millions of dollars of fine if they do not follow the laws of the country. And that's very important ` that we must produce our own laws to our own values and be strong about that and make sure that they actually hold a big fine ticket. OK. Just finally, the Police Commissioner said on this programme in 2015 that there was an unconscious bias towards Maori in the police force. He says that they're addressing that, but Maori reoffending rates, Maori prison population rates are still very high. What do you think about his statement that they're addressing that? Would you agree? Well, there's two parts. One is internal, right? I've actually written to the commissioner, Commissioner Bush, and actually asked him ` what is his plan? What is his plan for addressing racism, discrimination in the police force? But I also have asked him ` what is he going to do on the public side? And so I'm just waiting for that meeting. OK. Commissioner Meng Foon, thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. Kia ora. All right, coming up ` the news and politics of the week with our expert panel. But first, Mike Bush reflects on an historic term as Police Commissioner. Welcome back. Mike Bush is in his final days as police commissioner. He took the role in 2014, and his six years at the helm have proven historic. When the Christchurch terrorist attack happened on March 15 last year, he was in the command centre, watching the live stream. So I began by asking him whether he had a realisation in that moment that policing in New Zealand had changed forever. New Zealand lost its innocence that day. What we saw there, uh,... was unprecedented, and it was something we never want to see again. And we will strive, with our partners, to make sure that we do everything to prevent anything like that happening again. And for the force itself, how has that changed? Well, we're... As a result of that, we've been a lot busier, of course. After that event, as you know, we reached out to people with a sort of approach that if you see something, you should say something. So as a result of that, we've got a lot more leads in terms of people that are suspected of, perhaps, bringing some threat to the harm of others, so we've been very busy making sure that those people don't do that. We've done a lot of other things too in terms of just examining how we police. Right, so has the public bought into that 'see something, say something'? You're getting a lot more tip-offs? Yes, absolutely. The public have been great in terms of bringing things to us where they might have a suspicion. Like us, they want to make sure that everyone's safe. That's what we're here to do, so police and public work so well together. Are you policing differently as a result of March 15? What we're doing is we` we took a stocktake after this to ask ourselves if the way we policed was appropriate. What we agreed was ` absolutely, but we needed to do more of it, especially in terms of outreach to all communities, but also the way we equip and train our staff. OK. There is a strategy being developed for protecting crowded spaces. You mention that in the annual report. Can you tell us where that is up to? Yes, so, that will be launched sometime soon, and it's in line with international best practice ` about making sure that where people gather, they'll be safe together, and putting things in place to ensure that that occurs. But does that mean that you have to restrict people's movements and restrict freedom of association? No, no, it's how we manage those places. It's really important that people are safe and free to go about what they normally do, and there are things we can do to make sure that happens safely. OK. So, March 15 and the ensuing days and weeks was the biggest police operation in New Zealand history. Was a plan already in place for something like that? I can tell you that we train and equip our staff to deal with serious events, national security events, and as you saw on the day, our people responded in the most courageous and professional way, and within 18 minutes and 59 seconds, that person was in custody, but within six minutes, our people were on the ground. Our people are really well-equipped. It was also a good coincidence that we were training staff in similar events on that day, so we had people available to respond. But I can assure the public that if that was to occur anywhere around New Zealand, we'd have people and a capability to respond immediately. OK, so that was the response, but there was criticism from the Muslim community that they had raised flags about extremist behaviour before March 15. Have they been failed? Did the police fail them in terms of being able to prevent something like this happening? So, at the moment, we're going through a Royal Commission of Inquiry which is looking at a number of those aspects, but I can tell you that there was nothing on our radar, nothing that authorities knew that could have got in front of this. That doesn't mean that we're not working really closely with each other, because we do all have the same intent to ensure that something like this never occurs on our shores again. Have you been more involved with the spy agencies as a result of this? Yes, absolutely. When I said that we're getting more information from the public, we share that with each other. So intelligence community, policing ` we work really closely together on those matters. Because more information is coming to hand, we meet more often. OK. As a result of March 15, there is, of course, the gun buyback and the gun register, but what about the police themselves? Would the public be safer if the police were routinely armed? So, that's something we stopped and asked ourselves, and we did an evidence research on whether or not being routinely armed kept police and their communities safer. There's nothing to suggest it does, so the current stance of being a routinely unarmed police service is where we sit. It's where we remain. I remain committed to that, but that doesn't mean, at the same time, we don't want to make sure that we improve our training and that we improve our access to tactical options and weapons if the need arises, and also our people are authorised to make those decisions themselves. OK. So we're in a really good place. All right. You say that it wasn't preventable, March 15, that there was nothing on the horizon, but the one way to monitor hate crime activity is a register, and we don't have one of those. Should we have one? Look, we have intelligence methods for keeping track of people who will threaten others. Again, we've been improving on this for quite some time, even leading up to this horrific event. So, you know, we keep a focus on anyone who might threaten others, especially in this fashion. So you don't support the idea of a hate crime activity register or a hate crime register or, you know, making sure that when a crime's committed, like a common assault, that it's clear whether it's common assault or whether it has a hate crime aspect? Look, regardless of what you call it, we're very keen to ensure that we keep note and a record of people who may threaten others, and some of what you're talking about is actually an indicator of what could be a more serious matter, so, yeah, we keep a good record of threats against others. All right. You're leaving in a couple of weeks, so this is your exit interview with us. You do have five targets in your annual report that you're working towards over the years. One of those is to reduce Maori reoffending by 25% by 2025, but it's going up, not down, according to the annual report, so what's the plan to turn that around? Well, actually, it's tracking in almost the right direction. We in the New Zealand Police are determined to turn around the overrepresentation of Maori in the justice system, both as offenders and also as victims, so we have to work in partnership with others to make that happen. So we have made progress, but it's a tough challenge. So we're doing more and more in that space, bringing in more and more partners. We're very positive about achieving that, but it will take more work. Yeah, well, on this programme five years ago, you said that the police force did have unconscious bias towards Maori. Is that part of the reason that reoffending rates haven't really gone down that much? Yeah, we've got to accept that that's absolutely part of it. So, we've got a programme to do what we can to remove bias from our organisation and remove bias from our decision-making ` so at an individual level and at an organisational level. And that was five years ago. What have you done about it? I can tell you it has moved, and a lot of our data in terms of how we apply our discretion will... affirm that, so I can tell you that when we brought that in, the way we applied our discretion was not equal. I can tell you right now that the way we apply our discretion to European or non-Maori and Maori is equal. That's not what we were. That's good progress. Well, let's talk about the culture in the police force. The public trust at the moment is at an all-time high following March 15, but I wonder whether that's being undermined by the fact that you currently have a police officer before the courts on a rape allegation. You also recently last year had that independent review into bullying. Is that public trust going to be undermined by these things? Yeah, our public trust is really important, so it's one of the key measures, and it's from how you police that you build trust and confidence ` that we know what we're doing, we're there for people, etc. When we have incidents that are currently in the public domain, yes, absolutely, we know that that can damage trust and confidence, but what we also say are they are very isolated incidents, and they should not judge an organisation of 13,000 ` soon to be 14,000 ` by the actions of one or two. Our people do not stand for any behaviour like that. OK, another issue ` you've just launched an internal corruption unit within the force. Is this an acknowledgement that organised crime is taking a foothold within the rank and file? Look, we're concerned that it could. This is about protecting our excellent reputation that you've already referred to and ensuring that we maintain that and protect the awesome people that work for the New Zealand Police. We've seen offshore where ` and we know ` organised crime will attempt to get inside law enforcement to get information that will assist them in their misdeeds. We want to protect our people to ensure that we get ahead of it. It's a proactive measure, but we're not naive to think that may not occur, but we want to be ahead of it. Sure, and part of that organised crime are the gangs in New Zealand. The opposition leader, Simon Bridges, has had a campaign targeting gangs. Is that necessary, and are gangs more powerful now than when you became commissioner six years ago? There are more people involved in organised crime than there were when I came in as commissioner. It's due to... Is that a failure on the police's behalf? Why has that gone up? It's an international, global... effect, often... leveraged by the amount of illicit drugs that are in the market. That attracts organised crime. Plus, we've been pretty open about the fact that some of these returning deportees that are coming back from Australia, uh, bring their illicit drug trafficking networks with them. They also bring their modus operandi. And we're really focused on intervening there at the high end, but at the same time, we want to work in communities to prevent the harms that gangs and organised crime might do. We wanna... We would if we could stop young people from being attracted to and joining that life. OK. Well, Police Commissioner Mike Bush, many thanks for your time. Thank you. All right, up next ` our expert panel on the anniversary of the Christchurch terrorist attack. Plus, Backstory ` at home with Green MP Golriz Ghahraman and precious family photos of her childhood in Iran. Welcome back. And I'm joined now by our panel ` Dr Chris Wilson, who runs the Masters in Conflict and Terrorism Studies at Auckland University; Phil O'Reilly, managing director of Iron Duke partners; and Anjum Rahman, spokesperson for the Islamic Women's Council. Thank you so much for your time today. Anjum, first to you. How is the Muslim community a year on from March 15? Uh, I think that they're quite resilient, that they are certainly, probably, feeling a little tender at the moment, and a lot of memories that have been brought up, so I think it'll be a difficult weekend for us. But I know that people are determined to... just get on with their lives and just show that this hasn't divided us as a country, that this hasn't stopped us from being who we are in any way. Is it appropriate that we mark the anniversary like this? It's certainly not something that's done within the Islamic faith, but we understand that this is part of a national process and that a lot of the country will want to have an anniversary. And so I know that a lot of the community are participating. I would think next year, personally, I probably wouldn't, but for this first-year anniversary, I'll be at events in the country. OK. Do you think that, a year on, the Muslim community in Christchurch ` and, you know, around the nation ` feels safe? Probably not so much, because we've been seeing the constant threats. I've certainly been hearing of instances of physical and verbal abuse and so on. I probably get to see more than the average community member does. But with the threats and so on that have been in the public space, I know, for example, that a few of the widows were so afraid they didn't leave their house for a few days, so those things do have an impact. Are you talking about specifically just recently? Yes. About the most recent threat against the Al Noor Mosque? Yes, that's the one. OK. Is... Phil, isn't that rather sad? That we come to a year on and this anniversary and Anjum tells us that we still can't make that community feel safe? Oh, it's terrible. And so what we need to do is have... My sense is the idea of having a national remembrance around that is important, but it's also about encouraging everybody to think differently, and that includes social media, includes the media. Mm. It includes local communities, that they need to think differently and they need to be much more inclusive in their thinking. So I'd hope that Wellington people, for example, will visit local mosques in Wellington over this weekend and pay their respects ` and in their way locally; not just leave it to the Christchurch, kind of, crew. So, yes, I think` It's sad, very sad. And reading the stories about how the support networks that we would've all thought we were proud of in New Zealand haven't really done the job they need to do, including in your earlier piece ` that's worrisome. I mean, it's not as though we're dealing with thousands of people in an affected community; we should be able to wrap things around much more effectively for them. Well, that's one of the points, isn't it? We are not talking about a big number of people here. We are talking about, you know, the affected families; there could be ` I don't know how many ` 300, 400... Yeah. ...in the community, specifically. It does have ripple effects,... Yeah, sure. ...because there was 500 people at the Al Noor Mosque; then there were the people at the Linwood Mosque who all witnessed and were traumatised; then there were the people that knew and interacted closely with those that died, so, yeah, this... I guess my point is it's still quite a small` it's not thousands and thousands of people. We should be able to wrap around,... No, the most affected. ...create some rules here. Yeah, the most affected. Yeah, that's right. Is it your understanding, Anjum, that people within the community within Christchurch, in terms of that broader community ` you know, you're talking about the... extended community that was affected ` are they and have they been getting the support that they need this year? I think that there have been a lot of people doing good work and trying to get the support. I think for the most affected, getting culturally appropriate and consistent mental health support at the time that works for them has been a problem. It's showed gaps in the training and the lack of staff, for example, from the Muslim community,... Right. ...who would have been really helpful at this time. So there's a lot of work to do, but as I said, a lot of goodwill in this space and people that want to make sure it does work. OK. I just wanna bring you in, Chris, now, if I can. Anjum was talking about, you know, the fact that we still have` the Muslim community's still experiencing threats in whatever kind of form, and we've seen` You work on far-right extremism. How safe should the community feel, or should they be on tenterhooks? In terms of the level of activity in New Zealand? So my sense` And this sounds strange, but my sense is that the risk is greater now than it was before March 15th. I mean, it sounds stupid to say so, given what happened, but March 15th was a watershed, and I think it has brought a number of people who are more radical out of the woodwork, inspired those sort of people. Yes, there was a problem with racism; yes, there was a problem with hate crimes beforehand, Islamophobia and prejudice against other minorities, but March 15 was such a watershed that it's brought far more extreme radicals out of the woodwork, and new groups have formed, which really should be the focus of the attention of the security services. Yeah, I want to ask you about that. There were media reports this week that 60 to 70 far-right groups could be in New Zealand. Is that`? I mean, it's very hard to, you know, monitor this, but in what you've seen, is that true? So, there was no list or evidence provided for that claim, so it's really hard to evaluate. My sense would be that it's quite a serious overestimation of the number of coordinated white nationalist groups in New Zealand. Right. I think we'd be far` We would be aware of many more than we are. To get to that sort of number, I think we probably must be having to cast the net pretty widely and to include Facebook groups and other things ` which really are of concern, but not of the sort of concern that` you know, when we're talking about something like March 15th and the real threat to the Muslim and other communities. So I would say that was an overestimation, I think. Probably` So what do you think is the true extent, then? Yeah, probably the number of groups that are of real concern and the security services probably are focusing on, should be focusing on, would be fewer than five. Right. There's one in particular, which, you know, I don't necessarily need to name. My sense is that there's quite a... as I alluded to before, there's quite a substantial difference between those groups that existed before ` skinhead groups and racist groups who were often murderers and racists and highly prejudiced but didn't necessarily have that political goal ` and those groups that've formed after March 15th, which are of far more concern, far more political, far more ideological and what we term 'accelerationists' in terms of` What do you mean by 'accelerationist'? Accelerationism is an ideology of hoping to use extreme violence to bring down the existing order, to bring down society as it is now. And that involves attacks against minorities, attacks against the left and to create instability. So, that's quite a bleak picture that you've just painted there. Yeah, that's what I do. Yeah. (CHUCKLES) Anjum, that's no reassurance to you, is it? No, but we have to actually face the reality. I think that for too long we've been pretending that it's not an issue, that we're letting things slide, that people say things and do things and we just brush it off as if not important. Certainly, our organisation felt that we were brushed off when we kept raising these kinds of issues. That's right. So, do you still have that sense that you, as a community, were failed in the lead-up to March 15 because you did raise those red flags? Yeah. Absolutely we feel that, and we don't shy away from that. And we have put our evidence forward to the Royal Commission, and so we await that report. But certainly, we felt that there was increased organised activity in the alt-right space. We felt that the level of hate that our community had been facing had increased quite a bit around 2015/2016, which is what led us to raise the flags. OK. Just... Chris, do you think that if we had a register of either hate crimes or hate speech, separate legislation, that would make any difference? A register of hate crimes would certainly make a difference. It is one way of monitoring that sort of sentiment and the formation of groups. And you think about individuals who are trying to make their mark within those groups, just that broader sentiment in society which is part of the macrocosm of extremism that feeds into extremism which goes all the way from political rhetoric down to the street-level racism and prejudice. It's all part of the same network. So it certainly would play a role. OK. Looking forward, Phil, what do we need to do from a New Zealand perspective? I know this is your community, Anjum, but I think from a broader New Zealand perspective, what do we need to do for the community going forward and the Muslim community in Christchurch? Well, firstly, we need to not forget. We need to not normalise this. We need to not say, 'Well, that's over now. We're back to normal.' It's not. That's not what we are. And so, that's the very first thing we need to do. Mm-hm. Second thing, I think the idea that Chris is raising about saying we need to now identify this in a slightly different way, we need to understand it better, not sort of bundle it into other crime. We need to understand that so we can monitor it and get on with it. And then the third thing we need to do is make sure that those small groups stay small, that they don't radicalise others, they don't radicalise the young, the disadvantaged and so on who might find some value in joining them. If we can do those three things, then I think we'll be going much better as a country. But I don't perceive us doing any of those particularly well right now, I must say. (CHUCKLES) Is there a sense that we are delaying? Is there a sense of not moving fast enough, Anjum? Certainly around some of the issues. So, there was talk about hate speech legislation, getting that second round of gun legislation through the house. We certainly need to be moving faster. I also think we need much more visible, coordinated and strategic approach to inclusion, definitely within government and the way that government interfaces with the public. That work I don't see as being done or being treated as a priority at the moment. We need to be moving in the preventative space, and I think a lot of the work is in... and necessarily so, has been in the aftermath, but` Is retrospective but not preventative. Yeah, yeah. Well, just quickly, Chris, on the preventative space ` if we have five hardcore groups, what are we going to do to prevent them from becoming bigger? Firstly, we have to stop exaggerating the extent of the movement out there, because that does inspire young white men, generally, who... where the audience is. They are often lonely, economically precarious, aggrieved young men who believe that they're not receiving the status that they are entitled to in society. So, to exaggerate the sense of community out there inspires them and makes them think, 'There's many... numerous like-minded individuals out there, 'and I will either seek out a group or form my own group.' It inspires them. It almost makes them feel like they're part of history. We have to stop exaggerating the extent of this movement and the sophistication of it without denying the danger of it, the risk of it. And so focusing on those groups, such as the one that has been in the news over the last week, and realising that the internal dynamics within those groups, the individuals competing for leadership, radicalising each other. And one other thing, sorry, I'll just add, it's often the people on the periphery of these groups who are trying to make their mark and trying to prove themselves... So, we don't want to give them too much more oxygen or too much attention. Yeah. OK. All right. To the panel, thank you very much for your time. And stay with us. We'll be back after the break. Welcome back. To Backstory ` the part of the programme where we ask ` how well do we really know our decision-makers? Golriz Ghahraman arrived in New Zealand with her parents as a 9-year-old asylum seeker and, in 2017, became our first former refugee MP. But what was it like to be a child in 1980s Iran, and has she ever been back? And what about the family she left behind? Here's Finn Hogan with Golriz Ghahraman's backstory. (RELAXED HIP-HOP MUSIC) The vibe in here is... calm. Like, it's so chill. And there's toasties, and there's coffee and old records. So you could spend hours just chilling here and forgetting, um, about whatever horrific thing is happening in New Zealand politics... and buy jumpers. Yeah, I do sometimes escape here and just go through the treasure trove and then just drink a coffee and be zen out here in the middle of this urban, um... bit of a hellscape, but, you know, the train is coming. (LAUGHS) We've got an aesthetic in this house, and it's because the building itself is mid-century New Zealand, so sort of '50s, early '60s. Guy's mum also gave us a whole lot of things that, for some reason, she'd held on to. And this kettle is one of them, and it's the most ridiculous period piece. I'm sure it's gonna kill us, um, but I continue to use it and love it. This is a Whites Aviation photograph of Auckland City, which is amazing and historic and hand-painted. So, I bought this and framed it for Guy for Christmas a couple of years ago. So it was a bit self-serving. (CHUCKLES) The same year, by complete coincidence, got a photo framed for me, but his one is this photo of us in Euro Disney, which is very cute, but also, I would never have put up a photo of myself in my home before now. I was quiet, and I read a lot. So I had, like, piles of books, and I had little, sort of, best friends ` like, really close little tight-knit friendships. My parents were very political, and so were their friends. So for various reasons, as the war got closer, various family members were in parts of Iran that were living under the war, and we lived for some parts of our year in the west of Iran, where my mother's from. And I kind of couldn't get my head around it at first when we went there that, every once in a while, we were getting bombed. But suddenly it was like, 'Oh, it's not a drill.' It was a really tumultuous time. We left from Tehran. We, sort of, woke up at dawn, and we couldn't really tell anyone we were going, but we'd, sort of, say these intense goodbyes, so I think people knew. But we hadn't... We couldn't take anything with us or anything. Contending with the airport in Iran is one of the scarier things you can do. When you're a child, you're with your parents; you feel like they can keep you safe to some extent. So I can't even imagine what my parents were going through, and they were younger than I am now. So they were leaving everything, and they could've disappeared into some torture chamber if they'd been found out. I always remember this, and I always think about it just going down that escalator at Auckland Airport; You have to be on New Zealand soil to get your rights. So that soil, for me, is the bottom of that escalator at Auckland Airport. And I think about it still when I come back from overseas. And so we got there, and we just looked for the first official-looking person. And we ran up to them and said, and my parents had some English and said they were refugees. And we got taken aside, and we... They rang a lawyer for us. Then they asked us if we had any fruit or vegetables. (CHUCKLES) Well, I'm sure it's different now. We've never been back, because my parents still don't feel safe. It's just heartbreaking when somebody is ill or dies. For example, so, I lost both of my grandmothers over the past year and a half. And so for my parents to not be able to go back as their really elderly... mums, kind of, were slipping away from them... And you know that, and the family knows. That's what refugees do, because there isn't that return. Over the years, we managed to get family to send us old photos. But they're from pre-revolution Iran, when the fashion was... amazing. They were just ordinary, you know, 1970s hipsters. So, this is who is living under that oppression. They're not... It's not the case that they've never seen freedom. We lived in West Auckland when we first moved here, and it was this incredibly diverse community, and, you know, we kind of had never experienced that before. But... it meant that we felt OK. One of the things that really really shocked us was that people around us would go out barefoot. That was not done in Iran. So people would ask us, you know... Quite often, they'd assume that we'd come from this really backward place. And really good naturedly, they'd kind of go, 'Did you have a fridge? Have you ever seen a fridge before?' And we'd be like, 'You're not... You're not wearing shoes.' (LAUGHS) Not even six months into my term, my first term ever as an MP, I... got sick. I'd say in caucus meetings, 'I think I've lost vision in my left eye now,' and everyone would kind of... (GASPS) And I'd go, 'No, it's fine.' And then they forced me. They were like, 'OK, no, you actually have to go and see a doctor. 'It's not a "she'll be right" situation.' It turned out that I had optic neuritis, which is damage to your... optic nerve, and that's often the first sign of MS, multiple sclerosis, which I ended up being diagnosed with. That process was... long and complex and really really scary. One of the most common symptoms is fatigue, and so that does affect my life. And that just means that I might have to plan my day differently than other MPs, and the Speaker has been amazing about that. He's been really reassuring. I haven't, kind of, hit him up as much as I thought, you know, at first, about changing anything about my work life, but I might in the future. I mean, most days, I feel OK, and then sometimes it really hits you, and you do just feel weaker. But what has been great about my work situation, at least, is that everyone around me in my Green caucus has gone out and learnt about it, which was great. And it was Gareth Hughes sent links to people, and everyone sort of understood what it might be like. But they just kept treating me like me and just made it known that I could ask for help if I wanted. It was really important for me, the first time I spoke in Parliament, to talk about my experience as a candidate ` both filled with a lot of love and support, which I wasn't expecting, but I had also gotten a lot of hate and abuse. And what I said ` which seems eerie now, and it felt very eerie last March ` was, you know, I get threats of gun violence, and I said that in my maiden speech. It was like people assume that I'm Muslim, and they talk about loading their guns. Mr Speaker, some of them call for rifles to be loaded. It gets frightening. The way I deal with it, I think, is to connect with people, you know, with my people. So, I have really good friends from various backgrounds, and I think we all, as women, have this experience in different ways in our world. And, especially as women of colour, we're also thriving and, you know, making it in all sorts of different fields and roles in life. So getting together, drinking wine, (LAUGHS) eating food, having those conversations ` and not having those conversations, as you might need at the end of the day ` is really important to me. Golriz Ghahraman there. We're back with our panel ` Chris Wilson, Phil O'Reilly and Anjum Rahman. And the other big news of` continuing to be news all the time ` coronavirus. Phil, Minister Tracey Martin is in isolation after Australia's home affairs minister, Peter Dutton, tested positive for COVID-19. So, I mean, it's all coming to a new level. We've got leaders all round the world being put into isolation. Well, it makes it real for people, I think, that leaders are now being infected and going into isolation. But it's already having an effect in the real economy. Just last night, I was... a small hotel owner was bending my ear about the fact that his forward bookings are just zero and his business has dropped off a cliff, which goes to the really important point about the government's business package that they're going to announce next week. And I think they're pretty slow. Business is feeling like, 'Well, we need leadership now.' Yeah. Yes. I think once that's announced, you'd hope that it's simple and easy and effective, and all the briefings I'm getting suggest that. And then you'd hope that big business comes in behind and does something as well and actually starts to support small businesses, who will be the royal victims of this. Do you think that this government has been a bit slow compared to other governments around the world? Well, they've been a bit slow on this matter. I think, on the whole, their response has been actually pretty good, I think ` after a little bit of messiness at the start, but you're gonna get that. But I think the business package is a bit slow. Hopefully it's good once it comes out, because that will get a little bit of business confidence back. Well, we'll see this week, won't we? In terms of how the government's approached it, I mean, isolation is the big key, isn't it, Anjum? But that's not possible sometimes for families which are, like, crowding into houses. That's right. There are a lot of vulnerable groups within society for whom isolation is just going to be almost impossible. I'm thinking of prisoners. I'm thinking of, yeah, three or four families living a house, living in garages. There isn't the space or the opportunity. So just being really careful with those health messages but also thinking about those sorts of people. And I agree ` small businesses, but also our entertainers, our performing artists ` there are so many people that are currently being affected because of events being shut down overseas. Uh, also, speaking of events, I just wondered whether... Pasifika was cancelled this week, and should the Christchurch ceremony have been cancelled, in your view? I think the issue with the Pasifika community was around the people that were travelling here and then back to the Pacific, because we've already seen last year that huge number of deaths of children with measles. And I think, for that particular event, it was important to protect those islands that don't have the same level of medical services. OK. All right. Chris, I just wonder... I mean, it seems opportunistic, but how does a global pandemic like COVID-19 affect extremist activity? What do they do with this? I think something like this virus plays right into` right to the heart of the white nationalist concerns and ideology in terms of their concerns and their rhetoric about globalisation, about immigration, about multiculturalism. Their racism are able to target some groups and blame certain groups for spreading this disease. Even the sense among some that governments are untrustworthy and hiding the real truth from the people ` that populist sentiment. So I think they won't be particularly upset about such a crisis like this. And also, it also... because it is such a crisis, it does exacerbate that sense of existential threat that many of them feel about white genocide or whatever it may be, the decline of European society, so I think it will be feeding into it quite strongly, actually. OK. Phil, do you think that we have, um,... I don't know, embellished the fear of COVID-19, or are we now actually seeing the real thing? No, we haven't embellished the fear. In fact, we need to take probably stronger action over the next two or three months, because it's a winter disease, as flus and colds are. The coronavirus will get worse in New Zealand before it gets better. I've got no doubt about that. So I suspect that the challenge for the government ` both from a public safety perspective and from a political perspective ` is to be seen to be on top of it without going over the top. But governments around the world are increasingly stepping up action here, and I think we will be too. And so what would be the message to your community over the coming couple of weeks, months? Uh, I think to all communities ` just really` People are still shaking hands, and they're still not doing the simple things. And that multiple washing of hands needing to be done. Of course, we pray five times a day, so we are washing our hands but making sure that we're actually washing them for 20 seconds with soap, which is probably not the normal procedure for us. That needs to be instituted immediately. So everybody across all sorts of communities and areas. You've been affected too, haven't you, Chris, in terms of international travel, all those kinds of things happen? Well, I've just had a conference in Hawaii that I've been looking forward to for several months that's been cancelled, but that's really just a drop in the ocean of the impact that's being felt by many people. The university is working pretty hard, day by day, to do the right thing, and monitoring it day by day. But it's very much a moving target, you know, and the university, of course, is such an international community and a very large gathering. So it's a tricky question for the institution. And a tricky question for everybody. Thank you very much to the panel today. And, uh, thank you very much to all of you for watching this week. That is all from us for now, and we'll see you again next weekend. Captions by Kristin Williams, Maeve Kelly and Alex Walker. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 This programme was made with the assistance of the NZ On Air Platinum Fund.