Today, on Newshub Nation ` Under fire Health Minister David Clark joins us live, Kris Faafoi on the role of government in saving journalism and Justice Minister Andrew Little takes us for a safe, state-sanctioned mountain bike ride in his local area. Kia ora, good morning. I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation this Anzac Day. (BUGLE PLAYS 'LAST POST') The Prime Minister there. And while public Anzac Day events were cancelled due to the pandemic, people held their own events or stood in their driveways. Anzac events were reduced or cancelled last year too, following the March 15 terror attack. Simon Bridges has faced intense backlash from both ends of the political spectrum this week for his Facebook post criticising the government's extension of the level four lockdown. Rumours have since swirled of a leadership coup, but National MPs are still publicly backing Bridges. And have we crushed the curve? New Zealand will leave lockdown at midnight on Monday. And, in a best-case scenario, could spend just two weeks at level three. Friday saw only five news cases of COVID-19 nationally. Globally there are 2.7 million confirmed cases. Well, every New Zealander is dealing with different challenges in different ways during lockdown. Christchurch woman Caroline Attard is one. She's 31-weeks pregnant today. And has not been coping. Very... up-and-down, mood-wise, since the start. I've been suffering from hyperemesis, so I've been vomiting for seven months. All the appointments being up in the air, getting cancelled, not knowing whether my partner's going to be able to be there for labour and delivery ` yeah, it's not exactly how I imagined bringing a child into the world. I... have been in tears most nights for the last few weeks. It's just been a bit of an emotional roller coaster, I guess. I try to talk to my GP. I didn't really manage to get through to anyone and anyone I did through to, they didn't really think it was that important. They just said it was normal pregnancy hormones. I ended up, last week, being put back on some depressants. I just needed that. It makes a difference. And the fact that I'm not really coping with everything at the moment. Has that made any difference? I don't think so. Not yet. They normally take a couple of weeks to kick in anyway. But, yeah, I've still been a mess this week. Caroline Attard there. There's been a surge of calls to mental health services during lockdown. Youthline has told Newshub Nation texts and calls are up 50%. Health professionals are expecting an onslaught of people seeking help when they come out of lockdown. Well, this morning, the government has announced free counselling for 1.5 million people. And Health Minister David Clark joins me now. Thank you for your time this morning, Minister. Morning, Simon. A year ago, you announced $1.9b for mental health and addiction services as a landmark policy in the government. Today's package adds $40m to that. Is this new money, or are you just re-announcing something? No, this is part of the roll-out of the $1.9b programme. It's coming out, obviously, in stages and what this clearly shows is that the programmes are being adapted to be able to be rolled out in the situation with covid, which wasn't anticipated directly, of course, when we announced this about a year ago. So it is ` you're just re-announcing the package, aren't you? We're announcing the next stage of the roll-out. We've said it's going to be a five-year programme. And these services, which will roll out to 100 news sites by the middle of next year, will mean that 1.5 million New Zealanders will have access to support for mild to moderate mental health needs. We've got a problem we've had on our hands for a long time as a country, and this government has taken mental health seriously. We've put that investment in and we're continuing to train people to roll out these services. So, you say that you're rolling this out now. But we've been talking to providers and they say that their request to provide these services went out in October last year, and was supposed to be in place by February. Why the delay? Well, some of the services have asked directly this question. Some of the services that have been rolling out have been delayed. But it's been at the request of the providers who are leading on the other side of the equation, because they want to make sure that they've got things in place appropriately. And, of course, COVID-19 has stepped into the way in many areas for people being able to roll out services. But actually the work has been progressing. And I want to thank all of those involved who have made this possible, who are doing it now by Telehealth services, virtual consultations and the like. People really have stepped up. These providers have come to the party. It's taken them a little longer in some instances, but they are there helping at the front line and I want to thank them. So, because it was almost a year ago that this flagship policy was announced, and we've had like 22 sites around the country managing to do it so far, are you happy with the way that this has been rolled out? Is it fast enough? I am. It is broadly on track. There have been some slight delays with covid, but really not significant. And I'm really proud of the people involved because of that. Can you really blame some of this on COVID-19? Because one provider was saying to us that it should have been in place by February. My understanding is that where there have been delays, a lot of them have been because of this. But, honestly, there haven't been a lot of delays and I think that's why I wanted to celebrate this, because those providers at the front line have adapted and are making sure that they use technologies to get this much-needed support across New Zealand. It's something that we've wrestled with as a nation for a very long time. And we have said it's gonna take us a wee while to get right ` Five years to roll the programme out. But we're determined to do it, because New Zealanders should ` and they deserve to ` have access to free mental health. 1.5 million people. That's not, as of today, I mean ` it's gonna take quite a while, isn't it, to be able to access that amount of people? And secondly, you're announcing an additional 100 sites, how's that going to be able to cover such a large portion of the population? Well, that will be across nine DHB regions. This is entirely as we described it. We cannot train overnight all of the workforces needed to meet the huge need that's grown in New Zealand. It hasn't been serviced over the last 20 years. We've seen the need grow. We've seen people willing to come forward to seek help and now we are putting those supports in place, and I'm very proud of the response. OK, so we are hearing as a result of COVID-19 a 50% increase in Youthline calls, other services are reporting increased demand. Are you happy that is enough in place to deal with what's coming? Yes, there's been an extraordinary ramp-up. 1737 has taken thousands more calls and has trained many more operators in order to be able to respond via Telehealth. Across the country, we've had new apps roll out ` Mentemia. John Kirwan's been involved. Melon, the folks who ran Piki, have put in place online forums for people to have conversations. We've seen wider work done around the All Right programme in Christchurch that's now rolled out with resources nationwide. There've been a whole lot of things over the recent weeks that have been rolled out to give people the support, recognising what a stressful situation this is. But New Zealanders seem determined to make it work. Sure, but the key thing of having counsellors, say, in clinics and things like that ` if that had been in place pre-COVID-19, I mean, sure, you can't see COVID-19 coming, but if they'd been in place pre-this situation, they would be ready to go. They'd be worth their weight in gold, wouldn't they? Well, the programme has rolled out pretty much as it was expected. There have been no significant delays. I do want to be clear on that. And where there have been a few small delays, they have been because of providers needing to adapt their response in the current crisis situation. So I'm really grateful to them for that and I'm really glad we are seeing these services continue to roll out. Mental health as been a huge priority for this government. And we're determined to make sure that New Zealanders can continue to (GARBLED) these services. OK, so, we are hopefully getting away from level four, and we haven't been able to go to the doctor ` visits have been put on hold. What are you doing to prepare the health sector for a post-lockdown onslaught of need for medical services? Well, at primary care level, part of the concern there has been that people have not been turning up ` they've preferred to stay away from primary care services. Those primary care services ` I do want to thank them, because they are also having to work in a very different way, and have been there for New Zealanders when they've been required. So thank you to the GPs and the nurses that are helping out there. They will start to see volumes increase. There's no doubt about that And I actually think they will be glad to be able to serve in that respect, and to meet the needs of their patients as we move into level two. Are you confident the primary care sector's going to be able to meet those needs? I am. The primary care sector is incredibly competent and capable in New Zealand. I have real confidence in them. OK. The current reproduction rate of COVID-19 from one person, at the moment, is less than half. So if I have it, it's half a percent chance that it's going to go into one more person. What number of reproduction rate is going to force you to go back up to level four? There's been a lot of analysis done. Can I firstly just also acknowledge the fact that we are at that half a person rate is due to the extraordinary efforts of New Zealanders in observing their bubbles. That has enabled us to get a picture across New Zealand of where we might have concern about any community transmission. The Director General of Health has said he's confident there is not any evidence of widespread community transmission. That's why we've signalled the shift. Now, what would make us concerned was if we started to see community transmission that we could not track happening across New Zealand. The modellers have said that it makes a big difference what that reproduction rate is. And if we see that starting to really climb, that is something we` Do you have a number in mind? Do you have a number in mind if it goes up to 1.75 or 1 or 1.2? There are lots of different models out there. At 1.3, I'm told, there is a reason for concern. 1.3? OK. All right. I just want to know, Minister, why you've been in Dunedin for this whole pandemic. You're the Health Minister. This is a health crisis and you should be front and centre. Why have you been in Dunedin? Essentially, as MPs across the country, we were asked to go back to our electorates to make sure that we were able to be in our communities, like everybody else in New Zealand ` locked up and in our bubbles. Now, I have been able to do interviews, as I'm doing with you right now, Simon, perfectly well from home. As have other MPs across New Zealand. The only difference, really, is access to the press gallery itself, and, of course, they have access to us via our press secretaries. Sure, but if you look at it from the outsider's perspective, it's all coming from the 1pm press conferences ` the Prime Minister, the Finance Minister. You're the Health Minister. You're in the middle of this. This is probably one of the biggest health crises this country is ever going to experience. You're not there. Was that the Prime Minister's decision to send you back to Dunedin? We were requested to go back to our homes. And I think you'll acknowledge, Simon, that the Prime Minister, Director General and the others that've filled in there have done an extraordinary job, but so too have the New Zealanders. It's actually about the efforts of New Zealanders, and I think the numbers speak to themselves about where we're at right now. We're in a really privileged position globally in face of an extraordinary circumstance, and that is actually due to New Zealanders. It doesn't make a great deal of difference where I am. As long as I'm accessible to the media when required. Really? Would you, as Health Minister, not want to be in the thick of it? Simon, I'm on the phone all day having the same conversations and on Zoom meetings have the same conversations I would be having Zoom meetings in Wellington in my bubble, if I were there. OK, look, sorry to interrupt. Has there been any commitment from the Prime Minister that you will be Health Minister once we've seen this pandemic out of here? Look, you've heard what the Prime Minister said. I obviously got it wrong early on in the lockdown, and I apologise for that. And I stand by that apology. I did get it wrong. I have been requested to continue to help lead this situation. That's what I'm very focused on. And I've been requested to return to Wellington when we get to level three so that I can be available in the parliament to answer the questions as you'd expect when` That's right. As Chris Hipkins, your colleague, said during a press conference this week, there is an appetite to see the Health Minister back in Wellington. So finally you're going back this week. Is that correct? Yeah. I'll be back for level three to make sure that when the parliament resumes, I can be there face-to-face, because that's the first operating of parliament in that face-to-face way. Of course, I've been in the Zoom conferences with the select committee, just like everybody else who's in their bubbles Zooming in to those press conferen` And, in fact, you'll see there has been criticism of those who've actually driven to be there. OK. How are you finding the role? Does it suit you? Do you want to stay on is the question, really? Yeah, absolutely. It's a privilege to serve in this particular role right now, and particularly given the situation we're in. That is the result of New Zealanders' combined efforts. So we've got a real opportunity here to lock in the gains, if New Zealand continues to observe the social distancing. We're still at level four. And we continue to see the progress we're making. Thanks also to those at the front line ` the public health experts who've been doing the testing, have been doing the contact tracing and so on. Let's talk about the public health experts and what seems to be a disconnect between the Ministry of Health over PPE and what the DHBs and what the front line health workers are saying. You've announced a rapid stocktake, but it's only happening now, and medical staff have been raising the alarm for weeks. Why is it only happening now? Well, I think a bit of context here is really important. We've set up a national distribution channel in recent weeks ` a national distribution ordering system a couple of weeks ago. That is because in normal times, these agencies that have become concerned would supply their own PPE. They would have their own health and safety plans. They haven't been able to do that. So central government has set up brand new systems across the country. There have been teething issues, and I won't gild that. And now I want to be assured that they're working as intended. And, so that's why I requested this rapid stocktake. And I expect the early results of that this week. And that will tell us how the distribution is going at DHB level, how many complaints they've had, how they've resolved the complaints and so on. I want to know the system is working as it's intended. Just finally, is there a disconnect between what Ashley Bloomfield is standing up and saying at those daily press conferences, and what is happening on the ground? An example ` DHBs saying they are going to try look at reusing some PPE, and Ashley Bloomfield saying, 'No, that's not happening.' Then there's the issue of staff being threatened with disciplinary action for whistle-blowing and then the Prime Minister standing up and saying, 'No, that's not acceptable and that shouldn't be happening.' Is there a disconnect there? Look, I don't believe there is. We're in a rapidly evolving situation and this situation is changing from week to week. But, again, we're in a really privileged position because of the efforts of New Zealanders are making and I want to thank everybody who's involved in this effort ` at the front line in particular, but also New Zealanders at home who are observing the social distancing measures and mean that we're in a position that we're in, where we're one of a very few countries in the world that has the chance to stamp out this virus. Health Minister David Clark, live from Dunedin. Thank you very much for your time this morning. Thanks, Simon. All right, if you've got something to say about what you see on the show, let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and you can email us at nation@mediaworks.co.nz. Twitter panel this week ` Tim McCready and Mark Thomas ` and they are using the hashtag #NationNZ. But still to come, our political panel on the news and politics of the week. Plus, Justice Minister Andrew Little demonstrates how to go on a safe, local mountain bike ride. Welcome to our temporary segment, In the Bubble, where a political leader gives us a self-filmed tour of the private space where their big decisions are made. This week, the Justice Minister prepares his signature meat loaf, and demonstrates how to go on a mountain bike ride that's safe, local and lockdown legitimate. Andrew Little in the bubble. This is my bubble, so come on in. (UPBEAT MUSIC) So obviously you need to have a place where you do a lot of your... You're doing stuff together, but mostly looking at stuff on screens, so this is where we get our information ` the daily bulletin, the news, what's happening on Tiger King. As justice minister, I can't rule out that Carole Baskin didn't kill her husband. There's too much evidence, but I can't give away more than that. And these are my bubble mates, and we can't forget our furry bubbles either. Poor dog. Look, the dog normally has, uh, two or three hours at home on his own in a normal working week. He can't believe what's happened. There was a point in the first couple of weeks where he was being walked two or three times a day. That was clearly exhausting us, so we had to cut that back. So the other thing about lockdown is that it's everybody's turn to cook at some point, so tonight's mine, and it is my master meatloaf. (BOWL CLATTERS) And this is what it looks like before it's cooked. There is the meatloaf. We have more dinners together now than ever before, just like we have lunches, which we never had around the table before, so here is dinner. The other thing that doesn't go away in lockdown is, of course, someone has to do the shopping, so I'm the designated shopper. Then there's the inevitable coming back to the supermarket for things you forgot the previous trip, so here we are again, back in the queue. We not only have dinner together, but we have lunch together, so that's been fantastic, so here we are about to have... (BOTH CHUCKLE) ...our lunch. What are you doing this afternoon, Cam? Focusing on eating my lunch, actually (!) (BOTH LAUGH) As we know, the handwashing is absolutely important, but the good thing about this room is not just being able to wash your hands, but these guys here. So as part of our artwork, we've changed its name to 'Tribute to Week Four in Lockdown', because by this time, we're all ready to climb up the wall, frankly. My ministerial office, my Cabinet meeting room, my Cabinet committee room has been, pretty much, my study at home, and this is my study at home. So, uh, pretty simple ` books, desk, computer. Uh, I've had to do all the meetings with the stuff coming through just on-screen. I haven't had any hard copy papers. It's been a great transformation on the way I've done meetings. So the main form of fitness while I'm in lockdown is, uh, biking. It's on my mountain bike, but not on mountain bike trails; just on the road. (CAR ENGINE WHIRRS) I think it's been amazing, actually, how New Zealanders have responded. Look, I've actually been surprised at the spirit and good will that everybody has shown. It's tricky now, but like so many things in life, things can feel really tough on the day, but we're all gonna look back on for years and years, and say, 'Gee, what a tremendous thing we were able to do. When the rest of the world was struggling, 'trying to control this virus, we did it in a matter of weeks. We kept everyone safe, 'and we kept the nation healthy', and that's gonna be a great credit to all of us if we can say that to ourselves in a years time. Stick to your bubble, stay safe, and we will get through his. Andrew Little there. Coming up ` our political panel on the Health Minister's performance, and the news of the week, plus Broadcasting Minister, Kris Faafoi, on the future of New Zealand journalism. Welcome back. New Zealand's independent media took a beating last year from Facebook and Google, and this year COVID-19 has brought it to it's knees. New Zealand has lost some of it's most iconic magazine titles. The publisher of The Listener, Women's Day, Women's Weekly, Next, and North and South has folded, effective immediately. Newshub's owner, Mediaworks, has asked staff to take a 15% pay-cut in it's fight to survive. The country's most powerful media bosses lay the industry crisis bare for MPs today. Everyone is seeing unprecedented audience scale, they're seeing massive reduction in advertising revenue. And TVNZ is no different to everybody else in that respect. Stuff has been forced to lay off some contributing writers, the Herald's advertising has fallen by 50% in April, yesterday it's owner was forced to lay off 200 staff. 'An adrenaline shot,' that's how the government's describing it's $50M media-support package. It's a welcome boost, but with some glaring omissions. Bottom line is that all commercial media is in trouble, their needs are immediate, there's no guarantee that that over-all, overarching institution of the media will survive in a form that's suitable for a free and democratic country like our own. I spoke earlier with Broadcasting Minister Kris Faafoi, I began by asking him how the Government can justify this week's $50M media relief package, when the other sectors, like tourism, have been decimated. Well, look, nearly every sector is being effected. But obviously the media sector is being effected sharply too, and it was in trouble ahead of COVID. Making sure that we've got a healthy fourth estate, to make sure that we've got journalism being supported, and our media companies being supported, especially in difficult times like this is extremely important. This process, asking of ministers questions during a crisis like this is extremely important. And to be perfectly frank, some of that capacity and some of that ability with some media companies is in peril at the moment. Is it a hard ask convincing other sectors that this sector should be supported? I mean, only primary healthcare and aviation have received specific help so far. Yes, it is. But certainly, some of the first cabs off the rank to say that they were in trouble and that they needed support were media companies. And we were able to pull this package together quite quickly. And make sure that there was both cash-flow and certainty for those media companies, right across the board. That's important, to make sure that they've got some certainty. So the principles that we've been working across for the short-term package and the long-term package is to make sure that we do have` that companies like yours's can stay a float. Making sure that we can protect jobs and making sure that we can support journalism too. Asking questions of people like me at this time is extremely important. OK, well here's a question, why does the package favour broadcasters in the short-term? Because the nature of some of the fees that we're going to forego are expensive. Michael Anderson, your chief executive has welcomed what we've been able to offer there. There is an $11.1M component of the $50M that we announced earlier in the week. That is some flexibility, and as we've said in the last couple of days, we'll work directly with the likes of print companies to make sure that initiatives like bringing forward government ad spending can be discussed. We've gotta make sure we get the balance of cashflow there, but also making sure that we're spending that money prudently as well. Stuff has come on record saying they were a little bit disappointed in it. And they probably don't get as much out of the short-term package, do they? Well, that's` They're entitled to their opinion. And we're here to have discussions exactly about how much they might get or might be available for them out of our $11.1M package. I wanna stress Simon, though, that this is the first wave of support for the media sector. There are some long-term and structural challenges that the media still faces. And as I said when we made the announcement, this is a shot of adrenaline that we think that they need in the short term, to make sure that they do have a certain degree of certainty, and cashflow in the short term in order for us to look at some of those long-term challenges that the media sector face. Sure, is it a big enough shot of adrenaline? Now we've already seen Bauer go belly-up abruptly. And are you confident you've done enough to make sure that other main players don't fall over in the short-term, in the next few weeks? Well, we hope so. We did this in consultation with the sector. Again, we've got to try and be helpful to the sector, but also, as you mentioned at the outset, there are hell of a lot of other sectors that are crying out for help at the moment, so we have to prudent with the government spending. It's $50M, which is a sizeable investment from the taxpayer into the media sector. Again, it's to make sure they have that short-term certainty, cashflow, to make sure that, you know, the media and the fourth estate is as solid as it can be, because it needs to be at a time like this. Sure, but the biggest problem really is Facebook and Google sucking up all the advertising revenue. Now, the government's advertising spend is $110M, 30% you said goes to google and Facebook. Are you gonna divert any of that to mainstream traditional media? Well, that means` That 30% mark, Simon, means that 70% is going to mainstream. So it is a majority, so those figures, and they're blunt figures that we've got at the moment, but that's the advice that I've been given about the government ad spend, which suggests that a majority of government ad spend is going to traditional platforms like TV, like radio, like print. So that is an issue that we will look` So are you going to change that, or are you happy with that configuration? No, we're gonna look at it as we said at the announcement, about the influence that the online platforms like Facebook and Google have, to see whether or not, like Australia has announced, a similar measure like that could be taken into consideration. We'll also look at regulation, we'll also look at further funding to support journalism as part of that second package. But, you know, those figures that I were given would suggest that, and this is just government ad spending, that 30% might be going to the likes of online platforms, but the other 70% is still going to traditional media like television, like radio, like print. OK, look, you've mentioned the second round of support measures, what is the number one priority that you're looking at in those? Look, we pointed earlier in the week when we made the announcement to really beefing up what is called the local-democracy reporting scheme. It's been a pilot for the last 12 months trying to support journalism and regional journalism, to make sure issues like councils, local politics and DHBs are covered. OK. It's quite I clear, I think, that through this we can beef up support for journalism, and in there, try and potentially help regional journalism. But also some of the more traditional media players as well. But with respect, Minister, if you're talking about beefing that up from the pilot of about 18 journos up to, say, 100, that's really a drop in the bucket, and that's not mainstream help. That's regional help. Well, it's just a framework that we've had a pilot for the last 12 months, Simon. We'll go away and look at how enhancing that and beefing it up can support a regional journalism, because not everyone's interested in what's going on in Molesworth street and Ponsonby road. But also making sure that mainstream media can get access to that, but because there are types of journalism that has struggled, like for sport, like for business, so we need to make sure that we can support that as well. Is that your biggest priority in your second round, is it? That's the biggest priority. Ah, look, it's what we're pointing to at the moment as one of the big levers that we hope to pull. But there are others, as we said, regulation, looking at the impact of those online platforms, are just some of the initiatives we'll look at as part of that second wave of assistance. Are you considering either the Australian model of those, where you could perhaps make Facebook and Google pay for content, or, could you set up a tax for Facebook and Google that then goes to other media in the country, because Facebook and google don't pay for content. Look, Simon, all those kinds of things are in the mix. They'll go into consideration. We won't confirm whether we'll pick things up or not, I think there are a number of long-term initiatives that we've spoken about as part of our engagement directly in some of the engagement that the Ministry of Culture and Heritage had directly with media companies and also those who commentate on the media sector. We're going to need to work quickly to make sure that we can get an envelope for financial assistance, but also think about some of the regulatory things that we could do to ensure the long-term sustainability and viability of New Zealand's media. One of those regulatory things could be to change the competition laws that allow merger of companies, ie NZME and Stuff. I mean, if you'd allowed those mergers earlier on, perhaps wouldn't be in such a precarious position right now. Well, I don't get to say whether or not those entities get to merge. It's actually a function of the Commerce Commission, which is independent. And all of those things will go into the mix and in the discussion for the longer-term piece of work around the sustainability and viability. OK. Is the government prepared to let more private media companies fail? Look, what I've spoken about already in this interview is the principles that we are working to is plurality, to make sure that there are enough different voices in the media sector, supporting journalism and supporting jobs. We can assist setting the sector` What's the definition of plurality, though? What's he definition of many voices, I mean... Well, more than one, Simon. That's what plural is. Yeah. And, you know, what that looks like doesn't necessarily rest totally on the government. There are owners of private media companies who are in difficult positions at the moment, as we've seen with the likes of Bauer. And we're yet to see, necessarily` And we're yet to see exactly what their long term intentions are. So, some can fail. That is right? Some can fail, because it's the private companies. Well, look, it depends on the situation that each company is in and the attitude of their owners. So, it's up to the owners, it's not up to the government to make sure that they stay` Just like every other company in every other sector, Simon, it's up to the owners as to what the long term viability and the actions may take in the midst of COVID, and pre-COVID as well. We're talking to every media company, and we're pretty aware of what situation they're in. And again, as I said when we announced, we have to be able to move swiftly if things move swiftly. OK, a lot of our independent media is foreign-owned. So they may not have perhaps the loyalty to New Zealand, we've seen Bauer pull out. Would you like to see more of our media locally owned? I think that's one of the things that might come about from supporting more regional journalism through the likes of an enhanced local democracy reporting scheme, Simon. I think if you ask, again, and I made the comment before, someone in Greymouth about what they get through the Christchurch press, for instance, that might not necessarily be relevant for them. So being able to have coverage of local news, local councils, local DHBs and holding them to account is certainly something that we want to make sure we can enhance as part of the second tranche of support. But also we've gotta make sure that we can work that in together with, you know, the established media, to see if we can assist journalism there as well. In terms of the ownership of the major media companies, you wouldn't consider making it a law to say that they have to have some percentage of being locally owned. No, that's not on the cards. Look, we've got locally-owned state-owned media, the likes of TVNZ and RNZ, obviously, we've got Mediaworks, the likes of NZME and Stuff. Some of those are owned locally, some of those are owned by off-shore owners. But we've gotta make sure that looking after the environment and making sure the sustainability and the viability of the sector as a whole is important, there are things that the government can do to support the function of journalism, but at the end of the day, we can try and assist some media companies, but their decisions about their long-term viability aren't necessarily in the control of the government. You were once a journalist, Minister, so what's it like seeing an industry that's so fragile now? It's difficult. And, look, I think personally, and the government thinks, that the function of journalism is extremely important to make sure that questions are being asked of councillors and mayors, MPs and ministers, and making sure that they've got the capacity to do that in the long term and the viability of that is extremely important. We've got a media sector that has relied very much on advertising in the past, and before COVID hit, that was beginning to look grey, and now the storm clouds have come over and made everything much more acute. So being able to navigate those waters by trying to keep that plurality and support journalism, is very important. And as you started out in the interview, some people might question why that might be important, but, you know, the function of getting information to people, especially in a time like this, is extremely important. OK, Minister, thank you very much for your time. All right, up next political panellists Tracey Watkins and Ben Thomas on Kris Faafoi and the future of New Zealand Journalism, plus, reporter Corazon Miller talks to the small business owner who doesn't know if she can hang on Welcome back. I'm joined now by our political panel ` PR consultant Ben Thomas and Sunday Star Times editor, Tracy Watkins. Thank you so much for your time this morning, guys. Tracy, first you. David Clark has announced health services` free health services for 1.5 million people. Is this just like a re-announcement of what they did a year ago? Yeah, well, basically this was one of their big announcements in the budget, I thought, so, um, it looks like they're just sort of rolling it out now, and that's what they're re-announcing. I think the big thing is that the call on mental health services is going to be huge after we get through this period. There is going to be a lot of pent-up demand. So` So whether even what they announced last year is enough is gonna be` is gonna be a question. Ben, do you` do you think it's been slow to be rolling out? I mean, they're just talking about it now, and so that's a year ago that they announced these initial stages. Yeah, this mental health announcement ` we've probably got a lot of parallels in our own lives. We were intending to take trips overseas. We were intending to get our savings up a bit more. We were intending to buy a home, and the government first announced, roughly, this package as a campaign promise in 2017. It then delayed things with its mental health inquiry, then it announced all of this money in the Wellbeing Budget last year, and now it's actually finished some of the RFPs and is ready to roll out some of these projects, and, you know, as Tracy said, now we're facing a position where they're not looking at the 20% of New Zealand that they call the, sort of, missing part that has low-level, but, you know, still very real mental health needs that weren't being addressed. As part of a crisis response, we're now looking at basically` probably the whole country. (CHUCKLES) Um, you know, I would say that, you know, there isn't anyone in New Zealand who is being unaffected by this crisis. Sure. So it's a bit of a stark lesson in getting things in place early ` not leaving off till tomorrow what you could do today. Would it be unkind of me, Ben and Tracy, to say that this has, you know, got a slight KiwiBuild flavour about it, if they haven't managed to roll it out yet, and it's a year after actually announcing? Well, roll it out in a limited way, or am I being too harsh? Uh, well` yep. Yeah, it does seem that every` a lot of the programmes do seem to be taking an awful long time to get up and running. I guess that's always going to happen when you're a first-term government, but the rubber is really gonna start hitting the road now ` particularly some of the issues that we're gonna be seeing, so they need to` to actually` they actually do need to start delivering on some of these major programmes. OK. What about David Clark, Ben Thomas? He's been in Dunedin for the` for the lockdown. Should he have been there? Yeah, during a crisis, power tends to be concentrated in a couple` you know, very few` handful of individuals. Here it's Ardern, Robertson, Parker and Ashley Bloomfield ` you know, the top official who has quite` you know, very strong powers of his own under the Health Act. In a way, that actually lends a kind of patina of credibility and competence to the government that it probably doesn't deserve across the performance of all of its ministers, so you actually see really high regard for the public` for the government's competence amongst the public right now, and that's because the people who are taking all of these decisions, who are acting decisively, who are communicating well to the public are their top performers, and, you know, yeah, Phil Twyford is locked up in Auckland somewhere, and David Clark's been banished to the South Island. Well, David` David Clark's making a comeback this week. He's allowed to come back to Wellington, Tracy. Will he get a hard time when he gets back there` gets back there? Yeah` Yeah, look, I think he will. I think there are` You know, as Ben has pointed out, he's not in the` in the` sort of, the circle of power that's been handling this crisis. You've gotta ask why. He is the Health Minister. It is the most crucial part of our response. The fact that he's been in Dunedin ` OK, that's fine. I've been working from home. We've all been working from home. You can do everything by Zoom, but nonetheless, it's also about the appearance of being at the centre of things. So yeah, I think he will` not just for his gaffs around, you know, 'Do as I say, not as I do', when he went off to the beach, and he went cycling. It's just that whole question of, you know, has he been missing in action, and he's got some big questions to answer too now about the whole restructuring of the health system. That's two years` two and a half years down the track. We're getting to the election, and we still haven't seen any real indication of how they're gonna restructure health, and clearly there's gonna be a huge need to do that. We've seen that through this crisis. Uh, Ben, some people have been saying that Ashley Bloomfield has become our shadow` well, the de facto Health Minister. Yeah, now the Director General of health does have their own statutory function in a situation like this. You know, these powers are actually exercised through the Director General, but I think it's right. He has stepped into ` possibly unwillingly ` a much more political role than a public servant would probably be comfortable with. He's really become the public face of it; the most trusted avenue of communication outside the Prime Minister herself, and, you know, and I think as you can see, Ashley Bloomfield is up on the podium talking about covid-19 ` the greatest health crisis in the world right now, and David Clark is doing the rounds reheating a policy from a year ago. (CHUCKLES) OK. Well, let's move on to, uh` Kris Faafoi announced the $50 million relief package for media. Tracy, what was your first impression of that? Have print and digital been left out? Yeah, I mean, I think you sort of put your finger on that one, Simon. The bulk of this package goes to broadcast media. The $11 million fund that the minister talked about ` that's sort of in the next wave, if you like. That's actually still` That's not just for print, or at least they haven't specified that. It's to be actually shared between all the other media as well, and there's no real clarity on how that is to be spent, but I would say, basically, that I don't think, you know, the print media were expecting a big cash bail out, and certainly, what we saw from the government means, you know, if you're expecting them to ride over the hill and be the knight in shining armour for the print media, that's just not gonna happen, but what they were looking for were some concrete measures that we've seen in Australia, for instance, around tackling this big issue of Google and Facebook. There's been a huge reluctance by our government to tackle these issues. Jacinda Ardern was very dismissive of calls to` for the government to redirect its ad spend away from Facebook, and yet that makes you question just what the Christchurch call was all about, because` because effectively, you know, by supporting those` those platforms, they're also supporting many of the things that she and her ministers had spoken out against. And yet, um... So that was one of the big areas we were looking for. I think the other thing is too that we have to remember is that it's those regional supporters that are already doing their job in places like Invercargill and Southland and... that` that are actually such a huge part of the media ecosystem here, and there's been nothing so far for them. Well, uh, one of the` Kris Faafoi said that his main priority looking forward to the second round of measures being is that they're talking about the democracy in journalism project ` 100 journos, perhaps, in the regions, but that doesn't seem like a big scale solution, does it? No, that's really tinkering around the edges, and essentially is a bit of a boost for more state media. I thought the media packages announced really did show up what... you know, in the old days we used to call 'The Wellington Bubble' before 'bubble' took on a new meaning, which is... you know, all these officials would gather around and say, 'We've got to do something to save the media', and their first instinct is, 'Oh, Radio New Zealand is in trouble'. I mean, of course, Radio New Zealand is the only organisation that has been wholly untouched in its business model by the covid-19 crisis and the economic recession, and they still got a handout, and I think there's a real lack of familiarity and, sort of, imagination in terms of the issues affecting the private sector media, which is just as crucial, as we've seen, in getting out information about covid. Sure, but how can we justify... Yeah. ...an independent or a particular package for one sector, like the media, when other sectors are just crying out for money. Tracy? Well, I think that's` I think that's where, you know, it's important to note that` that nobody is expecting just a cash injection, they're not` but what they're looking for is actually` you know, I think the prime minister did a press conference the other day, talked about 'buy local' ` everyone should go out and buy local, and yet we're not seeing any great commitment from the government to redirect its big ad spend into local media, rather than on to` you know, I've seen ads on Instagram and Facebook. They're everywhere. So those are the sort of measures ` if you're talking about, you know, buying local, if you're talking about champing down on the platforms like Facebook and Google, then those things don't involve a cash injection. They just` They just involve, basically, a change in the government's priorities. That's not what we're seeing at this stage. Ben, why would you think that this government doesn't have any will to actually take on the taxing of those big two, or making them pay for content? I mean, look, these are huge platforms. They're very powerful companies, you know, and they have a direct line to their, you know, consumers/products, which is the millions of Facebook users in New Zealand, say, or the millions of people who use Google,... Yeah, but I would actually` yeah. ...so they` they are an intimidating enemy. Yeah. I don't think that redirecting the ad spend is necessarily the right answer. You know, it is impossible to reach some parts of the New Zealand public if you're not on social media, if you're not getting them through those channels, but I think it might be more productive to look at what Australia are doing, because essentially these big tech companies are taking a free ride on the content that is produced by news organisations. Facebook actually made a big push about a year or two ago to try and incentivise its users to share their own personal stories or updates from their own lives, kind of, the way they did 10 years ago and generate content that way, and it was actually a huge failure. Most of what is being shared on Facebook is` is content from the mainstream media, and I don't think it's crazy to look at options for, uh` for making them pay for that. OK, I'm just gonna leave it there. And I would actually` Oh, yes, yes. Quickly, Tracy? I would... The point about reach is just not correct. I think New Zealand media has the same reach as these` these social platforms, so I think that's an important issue that the government needs to address. OK. I am gonna leave it there. Tracy and Ben, thank you so much for your time this morning. OK, and stay with us. We'll be back after the break. Welcome back and I'm back with our political panel ` PR consultant Ben Thomas and Sunday Star Times editor Tracy Watkins. Thanks for your time, again, guys. Simon Bridges came out on Facebook with a criticism of the government's response this week and it was heavily criticised by the public. Tracy, was that fair? Yeah, his timing was all off and the tone was all off. I don't actually think there was too much wrong with what he said, because, basically, it's what a lot of people have been saying. He's not wrong. But to come out immediately as he did while the Prime Minister had just straight away announced the change to lockdown and everyone was feeling like we've done a good job, we're getting there. To come out and be critical of that was probably the wrong tone, I think. It did cause widespread disquiet and I saw a number of names I recognised, including National Party supporters, some others claiming to be National Party supporters probably weren't ` probably mischief making. But it has caused a lot of angst, I think. Yeah, so, Simon Bridges' tone there not good there, Ben? No, and, look, I think the response to it was probably a little unfair. But at the same time, there's no ref that you can appeal the electorate's decisions or sentiments to. You know, there's no umpire that you can ask for a replay on. Simon Bridges is right. All of the expert reports that have been commissioned ` the health groups that have talked to the Emergency Response Committee or the Covid Response Committee have said, 'Look, there have been problems with contact tracing. It did take too long to get up and running. 'There are issues getting PPE distributed.' So he's not wrong with any of this. But he has misjudged the mood and, look, as we've seen, David Seymour was the first guy to call for the border with China to be closed and he was accused of being a racist for that. Now the only question is should we have done it sooner? There's no prizes at this point ` there's been no prizes so far in terms of getting ahead of public opinion to be right about anything to do with covid. OK. First of all, Tracy, Simon Bridges has a right in opposition to be able to make these kinds of criticisms, right? Yeah, and I think at the moment it's even more important, because we haven't got the normal systems in place. Parliament is not sitting. He is the loudest voice of opposition, if you like, and there does need to be ` the government does need to be questioned. There have been a lot of missteps. The flu vaccination ` I know someone who was over 80 who couldn't get the flu vaccination, despite the fact that day after day we kept hearing the Prime Minister say there were plenty of flu vaccines around. PPE has been a big issue. There are certainly some serious concerns. I think the problem is that he's not resonating with people when he says these things. And that's the biggest problem for National, I think. Let's talk about tone, then, and Ben I'll bring you in there. A post this weekend, Anzac Weekend, by Simon Bridges has got him saying, 'Let's not forget,' instead of the phrase, 'Lest we forget.' Ben, what does that say about Simon Bridges' tone? I think it sums up Bridges' problem right now in a nutshell. Which is that he's got the best of intentions, he's just about there. (GUFFAWS) He almost got it. But as I said in a piece on the Spinoff this week, a few degrees difference is landing your moon-shot or flying off into the sun. And right now Simon Bridges is in the sun burning to death... (LAUGHS) ...as opposition leader, unfortunately. OK, well, let's talk about the longevity of Simon Bridges then. There's been talk of a leadership coup. Tracy, do you think members are actually doing the numbers, or this is just rumour? (SIGHS) Well, I'm sure they're making phone calls and there's lots of chat. They're probably not gonna roll him by Zoom. For a start, you couldn't be sure which of your colleagues were secretly recording that. So you wouldn't want to risk too much. I think the problem that they've got ` and this is their long-term problem ` if people are not listening to Simon now, come the election time, things will be different. The economy will be the big issue front and centre. That is the only way that National is going to win this election ` if it wins the debate on the economy. They need someone that voters are going to listen to, take seriously and not be turned off by. And, at the moment, that's the problem with Simon Bridges. He seems to be just ` it's not so much the message, it's the execution. OK. And that's gonna be a real problem for them. Well, I want to know from both of you, just to finish off, Ben, you first ` who are the likely challengers, then, if there are any? OK. Look, I don't think there's an imminent challenge. I think that would be crazy for National to show that all they care about right now, on the brink of an economic collapse, and during a literal police state lockdown of the country, that all they care about is their internal politics and ambition. The challengers are ` Judith Collins will always be a challenger if the leadership comes into the frame. There's more and more talk about Todd Muller and Nikki Kaye. You know, I think those are your realistic options that would represent a change from the current National Party. But, again, I don't think it's in the next week or two. All right. And Tracy, would you agree with those names or have you got anyone else in mind ` like Mark Mitchell? Uh, yeah. I think probably if you're something happening this side of the election, probably Judith Collins is your main option, and, again, I have seen talk about Todd Muller and Nikki Kaye. That's quite a different combination. I agree with Ben. Probably not now. The test will be if the next polls come out and they're around 29, 30, then panic sets in. We'll look forward to those numbers. Thank you so much to Ben Thomas and Tracy Watkins for joining us this morning. Well, we've saved lives and we're about to exit full lockdown. (CLEARS THROAT) Excuse me. But normality isn't just over the horizon for everyone. As Corazon Miller reports, small business owners, if they have survived this far, face an uncertain journey. With just 48 hours warning ` New Zealand ordered into lockdown. We must go hard, and we must go early. Economic activity ground to a virtual halt. A strategy that so far seems to be working. In short, the effort of our team of five million has broken the chain of transmission and taken a quantum leap forward in our goal to eliminate the virus. For Kiwis, the gradual return to life outside their bubbles is welcome as safe, contactless businesses will be allowed to start trading. A move that will help many, but not all. This mother-of-two owns a boutique fitness studio in Grey Lynn. Gotcha! On-site classes remain out of the question at level three. And core ` seven, six... Online classes haven't taken off. And her children are now home during work hours. Go up. The former ballet dancer estimates her business could go under if she's unable to reopen by June. As it stands, her income is down 85%. It makes me feel sad that maybe it won't survive, but I am doing all I can that hopefully we can come out of the other side, because it has been a real passion of mine. Put my heart and soul into it. So,... We are a two-income family and we have got a mortgage. So I do need my business to keep going to help us with the mortgage. But I know there's people in a lot worse situation than ourselves. The spread of COVID-19 has been worse for the economy than the global financial crisis of 2008. Businesses will fail, unemployment will reach record new highs, and many among us may need a benefit for the very first time. One of the biggest changes that we've seen is the amount of people that have never used our services before ` they've never gotten welfare support before. And so this is their first time using a food bank. And so that's the new group of people that we're really concerned about because we're wondering, is this a new group of people entering into vulnerability during this pandemic? And that's a worry for us. The number of people on Jobseeker Support rose sharply in the first three weeks of lockdown to almost 170,000 from around 145,000 ` a number that is still rising. Meanwhile, the number of available jobs are at record lows. Listings on Seek were down by about 76% during the lockdown, compared to the same time last year. Business confidence is also low. In Auckland, 30% of businesses fear they won't survive the lockdown New Zealand's economy is in recession. Economists at Massey University this week estimated nationally GDP was down 8.2%. In comparison, our economy was down 0.3% in the first quarter of 2008 ` during the time of the global financial crisis. Historians would say this is starting to look a little bit like possible depressions. In other words, very prolonged period of very bad economic outcomes. The key question for many is how long will the slump last? Even when you open the borders, the world is a different place now, I think a lot of people are very worried of travelling at all. Even if we say we don't have any new cases for a month. Yeah, some people may want to come in, but would we be willing to take them in? One thing is certain ` the return journey will need to be a combined effort. If we can keep it under the lid at level three and try to go to level two, that would be great. Because then we can have the cake and eat it, if you like. we can both have the economy running to some extent and have the control of the virus. It's a small sliver of hope, but one that for now seems just a little bit out of reach. I don't have more than three weeks. I'm already very stressed now. But the fact that I've got five other contractors that rely on my business to keep going, so I feel` I would feel heartbroken for them and for myself having not had a place of work for them to come to and to support their families. Sometimes I'm really optimistic that we're gonna be OK. And then other days I'm in total despair. Corazon Miller reporting there. And that's all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching. We will see you at level three next weekend. Captions by Joshua Tait, John Gibbs and Annie Curtis. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020