Today, on Newshub Nation ` The first in depth TV interview with the National Party's new leader, Todd Muller. Former Prime Minister Jenny Shipley, who staged her own successful coup weighs in with her analysis. And behind the scenes at home with 'Crusher' Collins. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 Kia ora, good morning. I'm Simon Shepherd and welcome to Newshub Nation. Pandemic. What pandemic? It was all about the political plotting this week. A coup and a new leader for the Nats. Todd Muller has wrested the reins of power from Simon Bridges at an emergency National Party caucus meeting. Nikki Kaye is his new deputy with Paul Goldsmith retaining Finance. Any other changes to the front bench are yet to be announced. The new leader called for unity in his acceptance speech Friday afternoon, saying the focus would now be on showcasing National's plan for the economy. And while Muller praised the Government's response to COVID-19, he said it lacks the experience to tackle the rebuild. Now, this is what you can expect from my leadership ` first and foremost, I'm about what's best for you and your family, not what's wrong with the government. And as COVID-19 cases surpass five million globally, New Zealand enjoyed four consecutive days this week with no new cases, until one new case, associated with the St Margaret's cluster, was detected on Friday. On Monday, Cabinet will reassess level 2 rules. So, the Government's handling of COVID-19 has been labelled 'impressive' by none other than the new leader of the National Party, Todd Muller, already striking a change in tone from his predecessor, Simon Bridges. So, who is Todd Muller? Why would he want the worst job in politics? And why now, with four months till election day, up against the most popular Prime Minister in recent history? Well, Todd Muller joins me now from Wellington. Thanks for your time this morning. How did you celebrate last night? It was very quiet, actually. We had a lot of work to do with the team into Friday evening, but at about sort of 8, 9 o'clock, my wife and I retired back to the flat and had a quiet reheated meal of chicken and coleslaw and reflected on a whirlwind day. It's been quite extraordinary. Doesn't sound that glamorous, though ` reheated chicken and coleslaw. (CHUCKLES) I know. You would have thought we'd have gone to a fantastic restaurant or something, but, you know, actually what we really wanted was just quiet time with the two of us just to reflect together on what had happened. It's a momentous day, of course, for the National Party, but it was a momentous day for Michelle and I and our family, and I'm going to catch up with the kids later, too, because that's an important part of my life, and they need to be on this journey with me. Well, I'd say the quiet time is over for you, though. Why roll Simon Bridges when it looks like an unwinnable election? Well, obviously the caucus came to the conclusion yesterday that they needed a new leader, and I am very, very privileged to have the opportunity to lead this great party. And what sits in front of us as a country is one of the great challenges of our time. I think you're right to highlight, as I did, that getting through the health crisis ` collectively, and I've acknowledged the Government's role in that; I think the Opposition's role in keeping their feet to the fire is appropriate ` but now we confront the greatest economic challenge of a generation. And it's my view that we have the team and we'll have the comprehensive plan to ensure that we rebuild New Zealand in a way that matters to New Zealanders. Sure. Let's talk about that in a moment. But do you have a political death wish? I mean, National's on, like, 30%, you're going against Jacinda Ardern, who's up near 60% approval ratings. Surely you cannot win. I have every confidence we can win, because the context of the conversation and decision that will be made in this country in the last few days through to September the 19th will be very much focused on the next three years. Who has got the best comprehensive plan for me? For my family? For my jobs? For my security? For my sense of the country has actually got a plan to actually recover from this economic catastrophe. Yeah. And the National Party, over may years, has been the party that has been turned to at times of crisis, because they are proven in terms of capability and competence and delivery. Mr Muller, let's get on to that in a moment. I just want to rattle through a couple of things. Why Nikki Kaye is deputy ` she's got more experience than you. She's been a minister. Is it that the National Party just cannot handle having a female leader? You've only had one in your history. She's superb. She's a great friend and I think the two of us are going to make a really strong team at the top of a very strong caucus. Look, I rate her highly. I think she is brilliant in terms of her persona and the connection that she has with Auckland, but, beyond Auckland, the wider country. Look, I've got a fair amount to offer. You'll see that over the next few months, I'm sure. I don't come to this cold. I've been an MP for six years, but before that a senior executive at Fonterra, a senior executive at Zespri ` large agri-business career ` and before that the Prime Minister's office when I was much younger and I had a fair amount of hair. OK, yeah. OK. What is wrong with the way the party has been heading? You've got to now unify the caucus, so what are you going to do? Who are you going to put in place, who are you going to get rid of? Well, look, this is day two. I think unity is very important and we do have a unity of purpose. Look, it was a tough time; you can't gild the lily there and say, 'Oh, nothing happened.' It was tough. We had to look internally, have a conversation and decide to change leader. But we have done that, and our unity of focus is ensuring that we put a plan for recovery in place that the country looks at, sees how it relates to their lives and supports. In terms of the exact position of everybody and what role they have, I've got a few days with my team to be able land that and you'll hear from me shortly. OK, let's just do some names. Collins ` on the front bench, yes or no? Look, I have made it very clear that I think Judith is an extremely impressive person and high talent, so you would expect her there, but I'm going to stop you there, because I'm not going to go through the process of saying who's going to be on the front bench and who's not. But I am prepared, clearly, to your question and it may link to what you've got later in the show ` I think Judith is very impressive and you'd expect to see her close to the front. Oh, I'll take that as a yes. (LAUGHS) OK, if we're not going to talk about front bench, what about Paula Bennett as campaign chair? We've still got to work through these issues. Obviously, Paula will be reflecting in terms of the contribution that she thinks is best for her over the next few days, and I'll circle back to her on that. But be assured we've got a tremendous capacity internally and externally to be able to run a very, very competitive campaign. We always have, and you can be assured we will. These things don't happen overnight. You say that your thinking was crystallised this week, maybe because of the bad polls that National had. But what was the tipping point for you leading up to this to say, 'Yes, I want to lead the National Party'? Well, the tipping point was when I formally challenged. Yeah, but what led you to that decision? Well, look, the previous few days had clearly really confirmed for me that we'd got to the point where we needed to have a focused caucus conversation around whether we needed to change or not. And it was my view that we did. And, as I said, we had the conversation yesterday and we come out of it very focused now on the 120 days to go and the job that we must do, which is putting New Zealand families and their jobs and their futures at the front of everything we do and we will. Let's talk about you plans, then. Simon Bridges told me last week that he does not support the Government's borrowing to get through Covid. Do you support that? Well, I think it depends on the type, in terms of the activity that their borrowing is directed to. I think when you're in the crisis that we are today, of course it is appropriate for the Government to spend to support the recovery. But the question then must be, how are they directing that spend? This Government has a history of being rated on their rhetoric and rated on how much they spend, not the actual change they make in people's lives. And I think that is a difference between our approach, which is very focused on outcomes, and their approach, which is all about 'look how much money we're spending.' And the case of that was the Budget, where the Government essentially says, 'We've got $20 billion in the pocket, and we'll come back in the next few weeks to give you a sense of what we might spend it on.' They need a whole lot more discipline. You've got a problem there, though. You're talking about ratings and the Budget, Moody's, the ratings agency, has just said the Government's economic response to the pandemic has received a AAA rating. So you've got no room to move there now. Well, I just have a different view. I think they have initially responded in terms of some of the wage subsidy support ` I think that was appropriate. But now we're talking about the rebuild, and they have failed on every issue and measure that they have focused on. My focus is on small business, and I just want to make it very clear that if I am the Prime Minister, I will have as a portfolio focus, Small Business. Now, previous Prime Ministers have had the Arts, they've had Tourism. John Key had Tourism. As Prime Minister of a National Government come September, I will be the Small Business Minister, because those small businesses need an advocate in Wellington and I'll be their man. So does that mean you're going to become the small business spokesperson for National and, I think it's Todd McClay, doesn't get that? He gets bumped aside? Well, I've talked to Todd, and we both agree it's a fantastic focus, because it's where we are as a party. We're a party of 55 MPs who have lived experience in the community and the real economy. This place in Wellington, it's a Wellington economy. Economy to me is the economy of your community. It's your main street, it's your butchers, it's your fruit grocers, it's your clothing stores. That is the real economy, and we will have a plan, Simon, that deals directly to their fears and provide an opportunity for growth and success. You talk about National being a broad church. You're talking something there about small business and community, but to win office you need broader appeal. You haven't mentioned at all the welfare state, the beneficiaries, the more vulnerable in our society. You didn't mention them at all in your speech yesterday. Why not? Well, I think what counts at the moment is the vision to be able to provide the opportunity to for people to get up off the canvas. Of course having a safety net is important. No one in this country would disagree with that. And I would be the first to support that. But what is our priority? Our priority must be to help small businesses and communities to recover, to get back up off that canvas. And that's my focus, that's my team's focus, and that will be the plan that we take to the country in September. And I have real confidence that when we get to September, Simon, that's what the country will be focusing on. And that will turn this election into far different debate and a tighter contest than you would imagine 128 days out from an election. OK. Well, let's talk about some of your personal positions, and you talked about your Catholic values yesterday ` abortion, you voted against that legislation. So you don't believe women should have the right to decide what to do about their own bodies? Look, this is settled, and the parliament passed the law. I had a personal view; it is vested in my Catholic faith, and I stand by the values that sit inside of me. But one thing you will never, ever, ever hear from me ` and you would have seen that if you looked back in the Parliament over that debate ` this is a personally held view. But I didn't stand up and speak to convince anybody else in that Parliament that they should change their view, because it's a privately held view, and I respect all views. And look, my deputy Nikki Kaye is an absolute icon in that context in terms of liberal thought, and talks to the broad church of the National Party, and why we are the largest and most successful party in the country. OK. Well, let's talk about other issues facing the broad church, just quick`fire yes or no, uh, Euthanasia? Right. No. No, all right. Recreational cannabis use, we have a refer` No. No? That's a no for that one. What's your personal view on same`sex marriage? I'm totally relaxed. You're totally relaxed about that. Does that go against your Catholic values? Yeah, I'm sure for some of my Catholic colleagues and friends, they might disagree with that. But I never said I was a perfect Catholic, Simon. I would be sort of a mixed one at best. Some boxes have been ticked, some perhaps not. But it's personal, and it's a big part of who I am. And like I say, I walk on that journey every day and I'm comfortable as I do it. OK. Let's ask some broader questions then, here's a couple, Donald Trump or Joe Biden? Oh, look, for me, I've listened to both of them speak, actually. I went to the conventions four years ago. And in terms of the person who gave the best speech, it was Joe Biden. OK. So why do you have a 'Make America Great Again' hat in your office? I know. Well, I got one of those, and I got a Hillary Clinton badge. And I've got them both in my office. But for some reason the Hillary Clinton badge never gets looked at, and everyone sees the 'M.A.G.A.' cap and somehow reaches the conclusion that that perhaps is where my sympathies lie. Look, I am a little bit of an American political junkie. When I was a 10`year`old`boy, I wanted to be the American President. I've adjusted that slightly; I've got a different goal now in 122 days. OK. Yes, you have a bit of a different focus. And one of those could be working with Winston Peters. Would you work with Winston Peters? Look, our caucus position is clear. And look, if that ever changes in the future, I'll get back to you. Are you open to the idea of having that discussion in caucus, to change that position? No, the caucus position is very clear. And if it changes, Simon, I'll get back to you. All right. What about doing a deal with the Green Party? You've worked in cross`party work in the Zero Carbon Act, you obviously think climate change is important. What about a deal with the Green Party? Well, I can't say that our caucus position is clear on that, because it's never come up in a caucus context ` 'would you ever do a deal with the Green Party?' as you would somewhat understand. But look I do` I guess my philosophy is that leading a National Government with a very clear view as to what is important for New Zealand and the rebuild of our economy. If other parties such as the Green Party see an opportunity to be able to assist that effort, well then of course my door would be open. At a personal level, I rate James Shaw very highly. I've had a lot to do with him in the Zero Carbon Bill process, and he was a man who was a tough negotiator, yes, but he is a man of integrity. And I actually think people want that in our politics, as opposed to the more sort of partisan approach. As you say, you've only got a limited time to convince the electorate. So, just before we go, give us your elevator pitch as to why the electorate should back you? Because I'm part of a team that has 55 MPs that live in your community, that understand the reality of the economy of your community, of your main street, of your families, and how stressful it is at the moment if we look out over a month or two and have a sense that your job won't be there. And this party will have an absolute focus on you and what you need, which is an assurance that this country will be run really well, and you have the opportunity to get a job and have family security. Todd Muller, new leader of the National Party, thank you so much for your time this morning. Thank you very much. All right, if you've got something to say about what you see on our show, please let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram ` NewshubNationNZ. Or use the hashtag #NationNZ. And you can email us at nation@mediaworks.co.nz. But still to come, we dissect all the week's political news with our panel, plus, she knows a thing or two about a successful coup. Dame Jenny Shipley joins us live. Welcome back. Someone who knows a thing or two about a backroom coup is Dame Jenny Shipley, who toppled Jim Bolger in 1997 to become New Zealand's first female prime minister. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Good morning. Let's jump straight to it. What do you make of the leadership change in the National Party so close to the election? Well, it's a longer time than Jacinda Ardern had, and it's an important change for the party. Why's that? Well, the public have to resonate with leaders. Simon did a very good job. He and Paula have served New Zealand and the party well. But in the end, the caucus decides. They carry that tabernacle of values, and if they believe it's the moment for a change, they change. And that's what we saw this week. Do you think Todd Muller is a good choice? Look, he is an outstanding person. I've known Todd for many, many years and remember his enthusiasm and dynamism as a young man. And he wanted to stand then. And I remember saying to him, 'You go and see the world and get some victories and some bruises.' And he's ready now, and I think you can see that. Right, OK. Do you think this was a long time in the plotting, or the planning? It's wrong to use the word plotting or planning. These things shift. And remember, the National Party caucus, those members are bound by our rules to decide. The values are the values of the party; they are intergenerational. But the caucus of any moment have to decide who it is that can carry those values and share them with New Zealand. And so they brew and brew and brew, but there's a tipping point. And clearly, that happened this week. But I suspect there had been that movement going on of testing. And in each case it's different. In my case, it was quite different. But in the end, Todd had the numbers and we have a new leader. So tell me about that gathering of the numbers. How is your case different to what's happened with Todd Muller? We shouldn't go over history. Just briefly. Well, the numbers had been accumulating for some time. I had written commitments, and so it was a fait accompli. It didn't have to go through a confidence vote as such. In this case, it is still quite proper under our rules, and I think a good process. The caucus weighed these things up, and in the end they made a decision. I know that Simon and Paula will feel keenly today, but they've also the satisfaction of having served so well. But Todd and Nikki are very capable. You look at the combinations over time ` Helen Clark and Michael Cullen ` I think that Todd Muller and Nikki Kaye, both extremely talented and capable. I'm not sure about Jacinda Ardern and Kelvin Davis. You do need a strong two, and I think the National Party's delivered, as we always do, that combination. Yes, but is Todd Muller going to be able to take on seemingly our most popular prime minister in recent times, and when? In this moment, I think the prime minister's worked outstandingly well over this crisis. But by the time we get to an election, that's not the question. I was very popular during APEC, but I lost an election because people had moved on and were looking for different things. I think families in New Zealand are going to be thinking about, 'Do we want the burden of debt that we had in the '90s?' And my generation lived through bringing that down from 51% of GDP to 20% of GDP. So we're heading the same way now. Well, people should understand ` and I know that that's what Todd Muller was saying yesterday ` these are choices much bigger than the popularity of any individual. This is a choice about the future of our country. And I do think that Todd has the capability. He's international, he's well connected. But he's not well known. That's true, but Jacinda Ardern was not well known six weeks before the election. So let's deal with like for like. OK. Why did he become leader and not Nikki Kaye? She's an experienced minister; she's beaten Jacinda Ardern twice in an electorate. Why not a woman? Well, I don't think that's the issue today. We've had three woman prime ministers, and in our caucus we've now got many senior` But only one female National Party leader ` that's you. Come on, out of three that's pretty good. I don't think that's the debate today. I think the caucus will have gone through looking for the best people. I'm thrilled that we've got a male and female in our top two. And I don't think it's material which way. Don't forget that the years in caucus are not the only thing. Both of these people have performed extremely well. They come with different skills, different experience, different world views. And together, they're an extremely powerful team. You mentioned, before, Simon Bridges and Paula Bennett ` what will be going through their minds now? And what happens to Paula Bennett? Well, Paula will decide for herself. I decided for myself. These are not easy moments. But remember, when you become leader or deputy leader of the party, it is always the beginning of the end of your political ascendancy. And I think, in those moments, you have to ask, 'Have I got something else I want to contribute?' And that's for her and for the party. It's much too soon to ask that question. But when you take on that leadership role, it's the beginning of the end? Well, you know it is, when you go up; there isn't anywhere else to go. Some people choose an elder statesman role, and Paula may do that. There are examples where people have succeeded prominent places with different leaders and sustained themselves. So, for Todd Muller ` OK, is it a gamble for him that he's going to take on an unwinnable election and maybe not win it? Is there any future for him after that? That's a matter for him. I took on the decision that I would make a change knowing that I could've waited, but I didn't, and those are judgements individuals and the caucus make at the time. Look, remember, it's not about us as individual leaders. The National Party leaders don't think it's about them; they think it's about the country. And I think Todd made the decision that, as a National Party MP and an outstanding leader, this was the right moment to step forward. If he doesn't succeed and then he retires or whatever and moves on, then I'm sure he'll deal with that. But I'm picking that this will be a much, much closer contest. Do you think he will be able to unite caucus leading up to this election? Of course. Of course. No doubt? Absolutely, unequivocally no doubt. How long does it take to rebuild a divided caucus after a leadership vote? Look, you are divided in your opinion of who should lead; you are not divided in your commitment to contribute to New Zealand's future. The National Party caucus absolutely, to its heart, has always carried that. The values of the party are that we think we can lead best with our team of people. That's what Todd Muller is saying to you now. Just finally ` you've worked with Winston Peters. Would you recommend to Todd Muller that he should consider opening that door again that Simon Bridges closed? I think that we should always be open to what the public of New Zealand deliver on election day, and it's changed. It's changed since 1996 and 1999. At that stage, New Zealand First was much larger in the vote. But I would never say yes or no now to any particular party ` Greens, coalitions of large scale, minorities. In the end, New Zealanders decide. And then outstanding leaders are capable of looking at that mix and at the programme and at the needs of the country and putting a coalition together. Looking forward to September, just briefly ` do you have any inkling of who would get over the line, given the current state of the polling and all this transition? This is the largest party by far, still, in the Parliament. Winston Peters chose the prime minister, not the public. This is a very high point for our current prime minister, but we are looking at a different nation. In August and September ` July, August, September ` it's tight. But I am picking that it will be much closer than some of the commentators are saying right now. I think the public have been waiting for something fresh. Let's give it a chance, and actually, a contest is what we need ` a contest of ideas, a discussion about what the future should be like. And you just wait and watch. Todd has got a sense of humour. He's got a great poise and position, but he also is interested in New Zealand. He's not caring about whether he's 59% or 49% or 10%. He wants New Zealand to succeed, and I think that's what he'll bring to the leadership. Dame Jenny Shipley, thank you very much for your time this morning. My pleasure. All right, up next, the news of the week with our political panel. Plus, we go into the home and childhood photo album of 20-year political veteran Judith Collins. Welcome back. I am joined now by our panel. Political commentators Ben Thomas and Shane Te Pou. Thanks for your time this morning. Ben, what tipped the National Caucus in favour of Todd Muller. It would have been the second poll result of last week which had National hitting 29, you know. It's the worst result of that poll for 17 years, going back to, you know, the bad days of that 21% collapse in 2002. Of Bill English? Of Bill English. That really clarified the mind. Yeah, look, National Party caucuses are conservative, they're cautious, they don't like change for change's sake. But that would have two poll results confirming each other with National at about half Labour's level of support is what put it over the edge. So it's a tipping point. But do you think it's been happening for a while, Shane? I think it's been happening for a while. I think that great misstep, what was seen as the bashing of the beneficiaries from day 1, prior to lockdown. By Simon Bridges? By Simon Bridges. And just the fact that he seemed to come across as being uncomfortable in his own skin in the entire reign. And basically what happened is the backbench MPs would have said, 'Right, I'm out of here. We need some change.' And throw caution to the wind, and bring in Muller and Kaye and a new team. OK, so, Ben, was it a good call to do this for National? It was probably the only call they could make, to change leaders. Bridges just wasn't getting the cut-through, whether fair or not. He wasn't going to make a viable run at this. As Muller was saying and as Dame Jenny was saying, it's going to be very different coming into the election where unemployment will be around 10%. We'll have these waves of job-losses, the economy will be contracting, and you know, you're not gonna see Labour at 59% then. What you need is a leader for the National Party who's not going to be a drag on that bounce back and who hopefully will aid it. Yeah, but does Todd Muller really have any chance, Shane, against Jacinda Ardern? Who is so popular? I think he's got a chance. And I think it will be a better contest. I not sure if he has the charisma factor though, and I don't know why the ticket isn't reversed. I think Nikki Kaye should have been on the front of the ticket. Well, does Nikki Kaye have the charisma factor? I think she has the charisma factor, she has the empathy. But also she can beat Jacinda Ardern, and she has, in one-on-one races. But, you know, the cards didn't fall that way. I just wonder whether Todd Muller does have the charisma, does have the kaputz to do this. And the other thing is what he clearly needs to do is he needs to show a fresh face, not only in terms of his own, but the front bench, and people will need to go. And I think top of that list will be Paula Bennett. Paula Bennett is gone. What do you think, in terms of the front bench looking forward, what do you think, Ben? Is Paula gonna be there? Is Judith Collins gonna be there? Paula Bennett has had a great career and I think she's probably got a lot to contribute in the community after 2020. That's a` (LAUGHS) OK. Well, we'll take that that you think Paula Bennett will probably no longer be in politics after 2020? I think that's likely. I think Judith Collins has to be a key part of the government's attack. Sorry, the opposition's attack on the government. She's run rough-shod over Phil Twyford and the government's key failures, Kiwibuild, and that has to be the plank they attack the government on, is this failure of delivery. It's very, very, easy, remember, to put a line item in the budget for $2B saying 'Kiwibuild'. It's much harder to get 100,000 houses built, as we've learned. Yeah, so, on that, Todd Muller has already signalled, hasn't he, Shane? That that is where he is going. He's going for failure of delivery, you know, 'Good on you', you've done well with the health response to COVID-19, but your track record just doesn't stack up in terms of delivery. This is a guy that walked away from, reportedly, a $800,000-plus job to work in politics and make change. His business acumen, his business experience will put him in good stead. Whether he can connect that in terms of where the average Kiwi is at, is the real test. Well, that's where he's going? That's right. That's right. Average Kiwi, he's going community. And that was good messaging. Yes. You know, talking about the economy. You know, the discussion of the economy in terms of the COVID crisis and the response has been very abstract. It's been treasury graphs, it's been ridiculous stock market prices. And not a lot of attention about what the economy actually is to normal people, which is their jobs, feeding their families, whether their local restaurant is able to open. You know? The economy is not this abstract thing and we're going to see that closer. So he's probably focusing on small business. As we saw in that interview, I think he's pushing Todd McClay to the side in terms of small business spokesperson, isn't he? Yeah. And those are the drivers of the economy, and that's an area that there ought to be more focus on. One that he ought to deliver on. Whether the big corporate guy ` cos that's his background, that's the reality ` he can actually do that? I'm not sure. And I just think that` He's not a small shop owner. No, he's not a small shop owner. And, you know, people are unhappy with Fonterra. Basically what they did is they just sold raw product upon raw product and didn't put the effort into added value, and, you know, and that history and his involvement in Fonterra could come back to haunt him. Yeah, but is that a vision for the economy going forward? Or is that just harking back to the` The whole speech yesterday seemed to be a hark back to core National values. Everything must be about added value, we must reconfigurate the type and number of tourists who come into New Zealand. And I'm not sure big corporate guy from Fonterra would do that. Would you agree with that assessment, Ben? In that he is a big corporate guy from corporate background, and he's talking about small business? But the whole platform yesterday was about community and enterprise and all that kind of stuff. Nothing visionary beyond stock-standard National core values. Look, nobody has a cohesive plan yet. Labour has $20b in the back pocket. They've got $3b to spend on shovel-ready projects. All of these are blank slates to be written on by either the Labour Government in the months leading up to the election and afterwards, or the National opposition to plan how it's going to re-fashion the economy. You know, this government promised transformational change. That's been forced on us by COVID. And it's going to be transformational for the better or for the worse. And we are going to have to hear from both the major parties about what that might look like up to them. All right, let's talk about a minor party, Winston Peters, Shane, does he rate Todd Muller? Because possibly the door is open there. He does rate Todd Muller. He told me so. He does? Yes, he does. You know, he thinks that the change step was necessary for the National party. And, you know, Todd has said today that the decision from the Caucus has been made, but I think it would be open for discussion when it is needed. But of course that discussion will not happen until the cards are played on election day. That's right. But you can see, Ben, that he's more collaborative in his approach to that kind of decision-making? I mean, Simon Bridges ruled Winston Peters out at the beginning of the year, Todd Muller? Which was, I think, the right move. At that point National had to drive New Zealand First out of parliament to have a shot. Unfortunately, with the polls as they are right now, New Zealand First and the Greens could be out and National would still be 30 points behind. So, you know, look, we're in unusual times and everything needs to be re-assessed. All right. We'll just leave it there for the moment. Thank you very much to our panel. coming up, Children's Minister Tracey Marin on a post-COVID Oranga Tamariki. Plus, behind the scenes at home with 'Crusher' Collins. Welcome back. How well do we really know our politicians and the values and experiences they bring to decisions that affect us all? In a political week like this one, secrets and loyalties are revealed, so you have to say we don't really know them that well. So we went behind the scenes with 20-year political veteran Judith Collins to hear her backstory. Well, I grew up in the Waikato on a farm, a long way from everyone else. So, I'm the youngest of quite a large family. We were a very loud family. One of the nice things is that we were always allowed to have our say on anything. Mum was 39, Dad was 41 when I was born, which nowadays doesn't mean much, but then it was quite a big deal. They were very old-fashioned in some ways. For instance, when I was a young person,... I was never allowed to even have a pair of jeans. I'd moved to Auckland from Christchurch and David was a police officer and I was a law student. And I was actually a leftie those days. Yeah, so he was seen as more of an authority figure in terms of my other friends, so very good to stop being invited to things that were not career-enhancing (CHUCKLES) for a lawyer. (LAUGHS) So, my dad had some difficulties, because he was Samoan and I wasn't. For me, it was a challenging time and it was difficult also for David. But it was very challenging for me. And I felt that it helped make me a stronger person. I had to stand up to particularly my father, who was quite a dominating force in terms of his personality. And I had had to do what I thought was the right thing to do. We just organised to go to Hong Kong to get married, because it was, like, why not? And we had to go and register and we had to go to the day and we turned up and we had no witnesses with us. We had nobody. And we borrowed two witnesses from the staff at the Hong Kong marriage registry. (SIGHS) Seemed to be fun. So, we didn't have James until I was 33. Childbirth is not for sissies. (LAUGHS) It's tough. He's a very, very good-natured, kind person. He loves books, so I read to him from the time he was born, basically. And we've always had animals with us. You know, dogs and cats and things. And he's always loved having those animals. So, well, this is not long before she passed. One of the awful things with the COVID-19 lockdown is, because Holly got very sick, she had a massive stroke and we had to take her to the vet, and so we couldn't all go in with her. And son James did, and I thought that was best. It's actually easier if you go in. And he'd had Holly since he was nine, so kind of sad. Isn't that lovely of them? They're always cheering every time I stand up, Mr Speaker (!) (PARLIAMENT LAUGHS) See, I think it's a lovely place to work, here in parliament. It's a very intimidating place, and so the debating chamber itself, which is very gladiatorial, is a very intimidating place for anybody to be. 'And I think that's with anything, really. If something fills you with fear,' you should get over that, cos I certainly felt a certain amount of almost fear, really. 'I spent a lot of time in that bear pit, so I got to know it.' Adversity makes you stronger. Survival of adversity makes you stronger. (INTERVIEWER LAUGHS) If you don't survive it, it just probably makes you dead, really. I've given up a lot and my family's given up a lot for me to do it. But I really enjoy doing my work. I enjoy my constituency work. I enjoy the thrill of it. Sometimes I can actually make a phone call and fix something. Or email somebody and suddenly they'll go, 'Oh, it's her so I better watch out.' And I can sometimes fix it. And that's a wonderful feeling of` It gives me a great feeling of joy that I can make a difference. I just don't suck up. You know? I just can't. It's not in my DNA. I have to be straight and straightforward. And sometimes people can be threatened by that. And I think that's a shame. It really says more about them. But I know this ` if you want a job done, you ask me and I'll do it. I'd like to hope that people remember me fondly, and that they have a good smile and they think that I made a difference for them. And it won't be yet, because I've got so much excitement in me. I just get up every day, I'm always excited about my work. If we can all have jobs or professions where we feel we add value ` if you can add value, you feel good about yourself. And I feel good about myself. At home with Judith Collins. Stay with us, we're back after the break. Welcome back. Well, they emerged from lockdown and went back to school this week. What's the state of our most vulnerable children post-Covid? And what is New Zealand First going to do about its low polling? New Zealand First MP and Minister for Children Tracey Martin joins me now. So, thank you for your time, Minister. What was the impact of lockdown on the kids that are under Oranga Tamariki's care? Well, most of what the information that I've been receiving ` and I've been receiving weekly updates, and more if necessary if there has been an incident that I needed to know about ` is that it's actually been really good. It's been relatively well received by our carers. We've got really positive information coming back from them about how they were supported. Our children and families, in the majority, have felt that the way that Oranga Tamariki handled lockdown ` alert level four particularly ` has been all right. Because, if you weren't actually allowed to go and visit them, how did you make sure that the children who'd been placed were OK? Yeah, so, one of the things that Oranga Tamariki had to provide to me right at the start, just before we went into lockdown four, was when we're restricted to bubbles, how are those children going to stay in contact with their families? So we implemented` We delivered devices to carers where we needed to. We delivered some phones and so on that I'm aware of to some of our families so that we could do phone calls, we could do Zoom. So making sure, as much as we could, we keep those connections. OK. But at the same time, there was a drop in the number of reports of concern during lockdown. So, why was that? Well, because schools weren't there, obviously, and the majority of the reports of concern that Oranga Tamariki gets come in from other professionals ` teachers, principals, nurses, doctors ` so from the medical profession ` and from police. We still had reports of concern coming in from police and medical professionals and so on. And we did have some reports of concern still coming in from our teaching professionals when we moved to that remote learning, so, we had asked them to make sure that they kept their eye on children that weren't being seen through that remote learning environment. Is there a concern now that we are level two and more eyes are on these children that you are going to get a bump in this ` an uptick? It's certainly one of the things that we're looking for, but it's too early to see that. Right. And I just want to make sure, though, too ` we also worked with our NGO partners and our Maori social service partners. They kept an eye on families that we knew were at risk. So, you know, talking to Katie Murray up in Kaitaia, they made sure they checked in with those families that they knew were constantly at risk. And we also had Whanau Ora providers delivering packages to people, we asked them also to, 'Would you mind just making sure you see the children. If you have a problem, let us know.' When you did have a problem, when you did find a child that was at risk, and 80 children were placed into care under lockdown, I understand. Yeah. How did you do that? How would you decide to go in there and do that? Well, because we would have had a report of concern from police or whatever ` much of this was off the backs of police reports. If there is an urgent situation where a child is in danger, then you send in your social workers. They are there on the front line. They're prepared to take the risk because they're so invested in making sure children are safe. And were the social workers safe going into Covid environments? We did the best we could and actually provided them with the best that we could to keep them safe. But ultimately everyone that's involved in this area puts themselves out to make sure that a child is safe. Did you end up in a situation where some children are in transitional care or placed into motels and things like that? Was there anybody that ended up stuck like that? Actually, to be frank, I'm sorry, I can't tell you that. I'd have to come back to you. We did the best we could to make sure that we had permanent bubbles over that lockdown four period. But there are always circumstances that are not the norm ` that are so far out of what is the norm that a transitional place of safety sometimes has to be the bit. OK. All right, so, coming out of lockdown, you've announced some initiatives. One of them is that caregivers can now get 20 nights of respite care. Before they could only get two days away from the children that they've taken on. Some social workers are concerned that there's just not enough other caregivers to give the other caregivers a break. Well, OK that's a reasonable statement and something that I'm happy to follow up on. We've been working through with whanau caregivers, and training up with our NGO partners and iwi organisations to try and have a surplus of caregivers actually. People who have already said, 'Yes, I want to be,' they've been through training and they're available for when we need them. Should you have established that there were enough caregivers to do that before you implemented the policy? No, I wanted to make sure. I mean, I'd been fighting to get more support for our carers for some time, so I didn't want a delay on this. What this means is we now have the money that we can fund this. Oranga Tamariki needs to go out ` and that respite care might be a camp. So it might not be actually just` and it might not be all 20 days in a lump sum. OK. Budget 2020 gave $25 a week more per child to families caring for children. The Government's talked about income adequacy. Is $25 per child enough? Well, first of all, when you think about the clothing allowance that we're actually able to, in the first year ` so, 1 July, 2018 ` that was $1500 a year that we were able to extend that to orphans and unsupported children. So that was that. And then we had $20 a week that came out of the Families Package, and it's in the first 100 days. And we add on to that this $25 a week. This is a start. It's certainly not the end of where I want to go to, because there's still inequities between those who are looking after foster children and those who are looking after orphans and unsupported children. But it's another step down a pathway. Right. Let's talk about the other issue at the moment. New Zealand First's rating in the polls ` 2.7% in this week's Newshub Reid Research, 3% in the Colmar Brunton poll. Nowhere near the 5% threshold. What's New Zealand First going to do to turn that around? Well, we're going to campaign like we always campaign. And, look, it won't be a surprise to you, this would be about the umpteenth conversation I've had in the time that I've been with New Zealand First that you're never going to make it back into parliament, and we do, more often than not. So, you're going to run a campaign, what kind of campaign? Is it going to be like we've seen before, along issues like immigration? Well, there is no immigration at the moment. We're in a post-COVID world. So for us, I suppose, that conversation's been solved. That ticks a box for New Zealand First. Well, it's been solved at the moment. This is the best time for New Zealand First since 1996, because everything, every decision that needs to be made, by whatever coalition government is in place, needs to be about putting New Zealanders first ` in jobs, income, housing, healthcare, protecting them from what is Covid. Everything is about putting New Zealanders first. OK. What about working with other people? Todd Muller's just been elected as the new National Party leader. What do you think about him? Well, I sent him a message, actually, saying good luck before he went into his caucus, and I did the same to Nikki Kaye. I've worked with them both. Todd's a great guy. I worked with him a lot when I was in Opposition when we were in Globe around the climate change issue. Right. So you've worked with him. What does Winston Peters think about Todd Muller? He rates him. He says he's a really authentic guy. And he is, he's a really authentic guy. OK, so would that mean that Winston Peters might be open to the idea of being in a coalition with the National Party, come the election? First of all, Winston Peters doesn't make the decision on his own. So as one of the lead negotiators that actually formed the current Coalition Government, I can tell you he doesn't make the decision on his own. So New Zealand First, we put forward our policies, we get the percentage of vote that we can, we sit down with both major parties and we go through, 'Where are our commonalities? How much of us can we get down the pathway that the New Zealand First voters voted for?' We'll do that that again after September 19. Yes, after that. But as one of the lead negotiators, as you've just pointed out, can you see any more commonality now that Todd Muller has been elected as the leader? I could see more trust. More trust? I can see more trust sitting at the table, for me, going into a negotiation after September the 19th. And if Todd Muller is the person that is sitting over the other side of the table, I know him more; I see more trust. So you didn't trust Simon Bridges? I didn't sit across the table from Simon Bridges; he wasn't in the negotiating room. OK. So do you think Labour will be happy to hear that position? Labour needs to realise, just like National needs to realise, nothing is a given from New Zealand First. We campaign on the policies of New Zealand First, we get the percentage vote, and we will talk to whoever will take the country as close to the pathway upon which we campaigned on. Tracey Martin, Minister for Children and New Zealand First Member, thank you so much for your time this morning. Kia ora. Kia ora. Well, what a time in politics. Two weeks ago we interviewed a high-energy Simon Bridges looking forward to the election campaign. Now Todd Muller has his job. There have been 10 National and Labour Party leaders since Helen Clark lost to John Key 12 years ago. So here's a recap of some of that drama. Helen Clark struggled to hold back the tears as she made the speech she'd been dreading. But my job as leader of the Labour Party is complete. I will be standing down. (CROWD GROANS, SHOUTS NO) Yes. New Zealand has spoken! (CROWD CHEERS) Out goes Helen Clark, Michael Cullen and Winston Peters. And in comes the 47-year-old former money trader. New Zealanders want stable, effective government. And they want that in place sooner as opposed to later. Phil Goff walking into the party's leadership role uncontested. With his deputy Grant Robertson in tow, this is Labour's new leadership team. The rebuild begins now. Today is the beginning of a new start for Labour. I am pledging complete and total support to the new leader of the Labour Party. I have no leadership ambitions at this point. Asked if he trusted Cunliffe, Shearer said this ` Absolutely. He's a Labour man. It's a move now symbolic of David Shearer's demise. I am putting my name forward to be the leader of the Labour Party. That means he wants to be New Zealand's first openly gay Prime Minister. And he says Kiwis are ready. I think the family unit in New Zealand many forms. Jones swiftly repositioned himself from supporter to successor. No doubt, the competition has got a lot more interesting with my arrival. Oh, you know, Shane's a good bloke. He won't win, but he's a good bloke. After two failed challenges, it was third time lucky for David Cunliffe. When we win, we will change this country. David Cunliffe rocking up for his first day at Labour's helm. Describe the feeling. Skip is feeling good. Skip is feeling good. I'm sorry... I don't often say it. I'm sorry for being a man. Andrew Little, now Labour's big man. Here's his take on why he won. The bubbly personality. (PRESS LAUGHS) The union boss with some difficult workplace relations ahead. Prime Minister John Key's bowing out on his own terms. It's the right time, from a family perspective. It's the right time to hand over. The patient English, finally getting to step up into the top job. Lead and dig up the diamonds around you. That is our task together. It is about winning. He was losing. He had to go. I only have good memories. Please do not ruin it. Jacinda, the leader of the Labour Party. Everyone knows that I have just accepted, with short notice, the worst job in politics. Ardern took over as Labour leader when it was down, then got it up but not far enough. National has won more seats than Labour and the Greens combined. (CHEERS) Bill English, a family man. Today, an emotional man as he announced his resignation. Through all our time together as a family, we have lived with` (BREATHES SHAKILY) (CLEARS THROAT) We have lived with the demands of public service. Crossing his fingers before heading to caucus to learn his fate. A few hours later, the Tauranga MP's wish was granted. The twelfth leader of the New Zealand National Party. The National Party elects, we understand, a new leader today in Todd Muller, the 51-year-old from Bay of Plenty. We are honoured by the opportunity to lead this great party. And we take it very seriously. And let's see what happens come September. That's all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching. And we'll see you again next weekend. Captions by Joshua Tait, John Gibbs, Tracey Dawson and Alex Walker. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020