E te rangatira e Toni, hoea to waka wairua kite huinga o te kahurangi. Tenei matou e tangi apakura nei ki a koe. Welcome to The Hui, Maori current affairs for all New Zealanders. E taro ake nei ` Glorious symbols of our past or just inglorious bastards? We really need to actually wake up and see what some of these people did. Cook is cancelled; Hamilton is had it. But what other vestiges of our problematic history need to be addressed? We still have statues up there that are causing substantial offence to quite large sectors of New Zealand, to particular iwi. We delve into the monumental debate over what to do with New Zealand's colonial statues. We, for a long time, have been just saying, 'We want our stories told as well,' given equal mana and weight, and we're always keen to work with people to do that. This is an absolutely ridiculous response. And it's not the Kiwi way in a free, democratic society. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 Karahuihui mai. The most recent Black Lives Matter movement in the US has sparked a fresh round of debate about what place, if any, New Zealand's colonial monuments have in modern-day Aotearoa. Some say removing statues is not the Kiwi way, while Maori objection to these symbols stretches back nearly two centuries. It all began in 1844, when Hone Heke's ally Te Haratua chopped down the British flagstaff in Kororareka. Heke followed up with further attacks, and by March 1845 Maori and the Crown were at war. Since then, symbols of colonial oppression around Aotearoa have been the target of Maori political action. A new Otago University study found that a quarter of named statues have been attacked. A statue subject that had a history of colonisation related issues, of being related to injustice, particularly the theft of Maori land ` those particular statues were most likely to be attacked. And also statues of military leaders, particularly where there were controversial wars, they were also most likely to be attacked. Last year a contentious statue of Captain Cook was removed from display in Gisborne following decades of complaints from the descendants of the tupuna who were shot and killed by Cook when he made landfall at Turanga-nui-a-Kiwa. I think we have to recognise that sometimes these impacts can be multigenerational. And some of the poorer health statistics for Maori and other peoples is reflective of the whole process of colonisation, and theft of land and that long process to actually get justice. This month the Hamilton City Council removed a statue of Captain Hamilton, who led invading colonial forces against Maori during the New Zealand Wars. The decision to remove his statue came after a long-running campaign by Waikato kaumatua. People were protesting against the Captain Hamilton statue for years. And that is just completely unsatisfactory. That process should have been resolved in a matter of months, cos it was so clear that that was an offensive statue. While the move was celebrated by many, it also sparked strong criticism, including from National MP Simeon Brown, who took to Twitter to berate the council. Hamilton City Council, in my opinion, has set a dangerous precedent. Where do we go next? What other councils around the country are going to try and remove statues when they have pressure applied by different groups? So, to discuss all this I'm joined by indigenous rights advocate Tina Ngata, Waikato iwi historian Rahui Papa, and later in the show we'll be joined via Zoom by Otago University senior lecturer Anaru Eketone, and from Poneke by sociologist Professor Joanna Kidman. Tena koutou katoa. Let's... me hoki tatou ki Kirikiriroa. That's your rohe. Tell us about the Hamilton statue. What has that meant, coming down this week, for your people? It's been huge. Look, one of the things was Hamilton never even set foot in the Waikato; died in Tauranga. And just happened to be a fledgling township coming up, and so they thought that they'd name a place after him. But actually, he did some really scurrilous stuff, especially in the attack on Gate Pa. And so having those monuments there just reminds everybody. You know, no one would ever want to celebrate a murderer today. But we've had to suffer the indignity of having these things for a number of years. Do you think this momentum will continue, or do you think it's winding down again? Do you have other statues or vestiges in the Waikato that you're looking at? Very much so. And I think this is just the first step in a long journey. But the point is to have discussions with iwi and councils and communities to actually think about what are those things that bind us together, not those things that rip us apart. So, you know, there's a whole host of these monuments, turrets, gun turrets redoubts ` all of those things that were there, and the raupatu of the whenua. And that's the reminder of the confiscation. It's taken a long time for Captain Hamilton to come down in the Waikato. There's a lot of opposition in parts of our community. What's in that? What's behind it all? Well, I think, you know, taking statues down is not a new thing. And it's also not just something that people of colour or communities of colour do. One of the first things that happened in 2003 after the Battle of Baghdad was that Saddam Hussein's statue was famously pulled down and pulled through the streets by US forces. And those are really powerful and important statements. And in fact, they often generate more korero than the statue themselves. Because it's a time when we're saying, 'We reject the narrative 'that's associated with this monument' and we are calling for change. And it's a time that we're experiencing around the world right now. It's a time of momentous change and a call for justice, and that's what these actions are saying. What else do you want to see included in these conversations in the hapori, in the hapu with the people who are responsible, or maybe uri of those statues. What do we need to talk about? We need to talk about power. We need to talk about how power is shared in the decision-making around how we create our visual landscape. And for the majority of these statues, many of them were put up in a way that completely disempowered and didn't listen to local hapu realities, iwi, whanau. It didn't take into consideration the mamae that is associated with those stories. And also the way in which it creates a visual landscape that robs us of our national identity. We're in a 180-year-long identity theft at the moment, where the original identity of Aotearoa is being replaced by a colonial identity. And so that's the larger discussion. And it needs to extend to our currency, to our place names, to the names on our streets, to our education system. It's about how we build a national identity that's truly reflective of Aotearoa. In the earlier clip, Professor Nick Wilson talks about it's not just what we see, but it's actually the health of Maori, the well-being of Maori having these people take centre place in our communities. When you reflect on the people of Waikato-Tainui, do you see that? Do you feel that? Very much so. So the raupatu is an intergenerational thing. It was the psychological damage. It wasn't just the taking of the land. And a lot of these things have filtered down throughout the generations, and there's people in the communities that think, 'That should be, 'the key reminder for these rebel Maoris to be able to sort themselves out.' But actually it is a stark reminder of the poor and the injustice throughout those generations. Tina Cook came down recently. How meaningful was that for you? I think it was very meaningful insofar as it was a response to the will of the mana whenua there. And that's an ongoing issue. We still have the issue with the Endeavour replicas. And of course, there's still a statue of Cook there. And in every case we weren't consulted or had our voices listened to when it was decided to put those things up. And they represent a story of great mamae for the people there. And I have to agree, you don't need to have a statue up there to educate. It would be unconscionable for anybody to say that you needed to remember what happened last March in Christchurch by putting up a statue of the perpetrator. So we don't need those statues up there for a teachable moment, we just need to be listening to the people there. Yeah. Tena korua. We're going to come back to some korero afterwards. Ka auraki mai Te Hui akuanei. Auraki mai ano ki Te Hui. While many in Aotearoa feel the eradication of colonial statues is the erasure of history, some iwi say the removal of their original Maori place names, taonga and cultural identity has been happening for two centuries and continues today. Kia tahuri ake tatou. For more than a century the names of settlers, governors and colonisers have loomed large in Auckland's city centre. We're really just seeing colonial history and power structures associated with white men dominating the political and economic processes. So therefore we're not seeing the role of women in New Zealand society, the rich heritage associated with Maori culture. They're just not reflected in these statues which are honouring particular people and ignoring whole groups of New Zealand society ` in fact, the majority of New Zealand society. Ngarimu Blair of Ngati Whatua says it's time to have a conversation about who we choose to remember. We're not calling for the removal of anything at this point. Obviously, Governor Grey gets people's hackles up. Fair enough. He did a few things to Ngati Whatua here in the city that we aren't happy about. But we, for a long time, have been just saying we want our stories told as well, given equal mana and weight, and we're always keen to work with people to do that. The land on which Auckland was built was gifted by Ngati Whatua Orakei rangatira Apihai te Kawau to create what would become New Zealand's economic powerhouse. We had villages across this landscape dotted along the Waitemata, the Manukau. Samuel Marsden described them as the most elaborately carved buildings he'd seen anywhere in the country. So our art was right through this landscape. By 1951 there was nothing. We were cleansed from this landscape. Every carving, every meeting house, including our one in 1951, burnt to the ground, gone. So we have that pain in us. And while Whatua aren't calling for monuments to come down, Ngarimu Blair says change is coming. Our babies need to be learning the history of Aotearoa, of New Zealand ` how we came here from the Pacific; the hoped-for partnership between Pakeha and Maori and what that means today for us. And he says it's not just historical monuments causing upset. We actually have a modern-day monument we put up, and that one was actually removed by council. Now, that sculpture that we put up right in our heartland, just Downtown here, was removed through the RMA processes that the council engages in with other iwi, who we say aren't from here. So we've already had` We still suffer it. Our monuments are being removed not less than four years ago. And joining our panel now from Dunedin is Otago University senior lecturer Anaru Eketone, who has written about this issue for Newsroom. Kia ora. You have said that we don't need to be pulling down these historical figures ` a similar whakaaro to Ngarimu. Why do you think that? It was more that we should negotiate. Because, um, I think we've had a few hundred years of all our stuff ` as that speaker just spoke about ` of our stuff knocked down, pulled over; our sacred spaces and places bulldozed, ploughed over. Even as we speak, my whanau in Ngati Tamainupo are trying to protect food pits in Ngaruawahia that gave Ngaruawahia its name. And yet we had to stop the bulldozers during lockdown. So these things, they're not new; they're always happening. And so it should be negotiated. Because... If we pull these things down, if we knock them down, I'm worried that we'd lose some of the context of the history, that we can't tell the full story because... I'm just worried that our history gets swept away as well. I was just gonna say, do they have to be remembered in statues? Can we not remember them on the internet or in a book? Um, yeah. There's lots of ways. There's lots of creative ways of doing things too. My favourite one was down here in Dunedin, where the guy had put a necklace of potatoes around Queen Victoria to signify the potato famine. And I think that was a far more creative way of protest rather than spray-painting. Because I think... because these things have happened to us, we know the hurt that comes with that. And if you view their statues as like our carvings, you know, we get really upset if people target our carvings that represent our tupuna. And I can understand why Pakeha will get upset about damage to those things that represent things that are important to them too. So that's why I think these things should be negotiated and talked about, rather than just anyone doing what they think they should because they can. When I lived in Auckland, to me, the most oppressive monument, if you like, was the tree on One Tree Hill. And I would drive past that when I lived in Auckland, you know, seething a bit. And in 1994, September, I left Auckland and I went up to One Tree Hill to say goodbye to the city. And I put my hands on the tree, and I said, 'God, I pray this tree die.' Cos that was the strength of my feeling. And a few weeks later, that's when Mike Smith got the chainsaw... (LAUGHTER) (SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) Ka pai. So be careful what you ask for. But some of the response to that was that some people then targeted some of our monuments. Our waka was set fire to. I'm just gonna bring the korero back here to studio. Tina, you've been part of these negotiations with council and things like that. I guess this idea that we should all just negotiate, is it that easy? It's unfortunately not that easy because your memorial may well represent a story of great mamae for my people, whereas my memorial would not necessarily do the same. So if you were to, for instance, talk about the memorial to Te Maro and the memorial to Cook, I mean, unless my memorial is responsible for the systemic oppression of your people and slaughters and a source of great pain and trauma, then we're not talking about equal representation there. And it's a form of gaslighting to say that I can put this memorial up and it doesn't hurt your people and it's equal if you just get to put yours up. It is all about mamae and hurt at the end of the day, and in that piece you heard Ngarimu Blair talking about modern-day mamae. Given that Waikato has got so many associations to other iwi around, what do you think about what he said in there? I think that there should be a moratorium placed on erecting these blimey things until those conversations can be had and meaningful engagement can be had. Look, everyone's got a view, and I respect everyone's views. Different strokes for different folks. The problem in that one, though, is that it's the RMA; it's legislation. It's not iwi to iwi. This is being done through` That's what I mean. So there should be a moratorium placed on the erection of anything until those` and even the removal of some of these things ` until there's a comprehensive discussion that's taken place. And that should be provided for not only in local government law but in central government law as well. Whakaaro pai. Tena korua. I just want to thank you for joining us there from Dunedin, e hoa. Kia mau tonu mai ra te titiro. Ka hoki mai Te Hui akuanei. The toppling of Confederate statues has become a symbol of change. Here in Aotearoa, communities are working towards finding compromises for some monuments. But how do we find a balance when our past narratives are so one-sided? The monument to Colonel Marmaduke Nixon sits at the gateway of South Auckland. Nixon led invading imperial and colonial forces to the Waikato, heading up a bloody attack on the peaceful settlement of Rangiaowhia, a refuge for women and children sheltering from war. The monument has long been a source of anguish for the iwi Nixon invaded. In 2017, Auckland mayor Phil Goff set up a council working group to decide what to do with the controversial monument. New information panels have been promised, but they're yet to appear. Meanwhile, in the West Coast settlement of Waitara, monuments to Maori lay neglected and forgotten. More than 40 Maori lost their lives here at Redoubt 3 during the Taranaki Land Wars. What do you make of this site? It's pretty unkempt, and it's on private property. We are lucky that the farmer has allowed us to come up the driveway. But in terms of a commemoration to whakamana these people who've lost their lives here, it's an interesting situation. Well, there's nothing to indicate that this is a site of major loss of life during the New Zealand Wars. A lot of people wouldn't be aware of the fact that it's here. There's not really any information here, either, about what took place on this site and why it's significant. So how do we balance up representation when they've been cast in stone? A single headstone on the furthest corner of the church grounds. Yeah. You couldn't get any further away, really. And this is where a number of rangatira are buried. Why would they bury them so far away from the other graves in the church? Uh, it was a desire to avoid offending Pakeha who might have been upset that they were buried alongside the Crown forces buried there. We saw the language there - 'Cruelly murdered by the rebel Maoris,' and so on. So there's a lot of strong sentiment around those headstones. And hence the decision to bury these rangatira about as far away as possible within the church grounds, in the grounds of the vicarage. And joining us now via Zoom is Professor Joanna Kidman, who is currently working on a Marsden project about remembering and forgetting New Zealand's colonial past. Tena koe e te rangatira. You've been around the country visiting some of our most significant sites. What are your observations? Well, when we first started going around the battle sites, what we often found were that they were really hard to find. That was the first thing. The second thing is that some of those sites are really badly neglected. They haven't been cared for. And that's a really big deal because for some of us, our tupuna are lying in those grounds. So that was a cause of heartbreak for many of our research team as we were going around the country. And who's responsible for the upkeep of those sites? Well, that's the key question. And I think one of the things that becomes really important is that, you know, often there is the expectation that it's gonna be iwi who are gonna carry the costs of looking after those sites, when those were actually sites of invasion. So I think it is about mana whenua needs to have control over what is happening in their rohe with those sites. But they shouldn't have to carry the costs themselves. It's really important that there is full resourcing for that to happen in a way that's going to work for the people at those places, I think. I'm going to bring Rahui back in here. Waikato has actually restored some of those sites ` Rangiriri one of them. What is the deal? Who's responsible for them? Is it a partnership? Yeah, so it's a bit of a mix. It was a partnership with the council, with the Department of Conservation and with the local mana whenua. And so a lot of the locals have stood up and gone to mow the lawns and the like. But there is a partnership arrangement there. Tina, it's interesting in that piece, they talked about how there's over-representation, of course, of colonial statues and memorials. I wonder what's your whakaaro around wahine? We don't seem to have a lot of statues with women or memorials for that. Yes. And again, it's a representation of the power dynamic within the decision making here. So of course we know that we have many fantastic wahine leaders around the country, but yet within this patriarchal colonial decision making framework, they're not empowered to have a say about how we are represented, let alone be represented themselves. We like to think that we weren't as sexist back in the day in our Maori communities, but how did we remember our wahine and our tane? Look, our oratory, our waiata, our haka are replete with honouring our tipuna wahine. And of course, coming from Ngati Porou, we have many marae, wharenui who are named after our wahine. And there are wharenui around the motu that are named after tipuna wahine. It was not something that was particular to us, but we certainly celebrate our wahine kaihatu in Ngati Porou as well. Joanna, I just wondered if I could throw that question to you about the memorials and the places that you've visited ` in terms of men or women or children, what did you take away? It really differs from place to place. One of the things that we have been doing is looking at monuments that have been set up to commemorate the New Zealand Wars in some way. And one of the things that we find there is that those monuments tended to be erected in the late 19th century, early 20th century. So as Tina says, this is exactly as she says ` these were decisions that were made by men for the men in their community. And they tend to commemorate the British and colonial troops. Sometimes there's a recognition of Maori who fought alongside. But there is hardly ever` It is only very rare to see acknowledgement of those Maori who died defending their lands in those conflicts. Ka pai. Rahui, in some of these sites it's more than just taking a statue down or removing or putting up an information panel. You've actually got wahi tapu in some of those places. So for example, in that Taranaki piece you saw there, you've got Wiremu Tamihana's son, who's still buried there at the vicarage. You've got the bones of Marmaduke Nixon at the bottom of that statue. What's your whakaaro around shifting them, keeping them? Yeah, so that... Personally, I think that Te Wetini went to Taranaki and fought and died there, and so in honour ` and Taranaki has been looking after him ever since that time. You know, it's the same at Orakau. That's where a lot of our Tuhoe and Tuwharetoa, Ngati Kahungunu people are still there. And so it's a hugely important site. And we should look at those, not just the significance of the site but the significance of them being urupa as well. Mm. Tina, if there was one statue, memorial, you know, that you would like to consider removing, changing, what might that be for you? No surprise, um, Cook (CHUCKLES) at Waikanae. In Turanga, I think we need to open the discussion back up to our Turanga iwi to talk about whether or not that is a welcome monument there and who should be there. And Dr Kidman, have you got one? Look, I'm still celebrating the removal of Hamilton from Kirikiriroa. That, to me, was a good day. Anaru, o whakaaro? Um, more there's museums that still have, when you walk in the door, the cannons, the colonial troops right at the front, and Maori right down the back. Those museums that do that, I'd like them to switch it round. Whakaaro pai tera. Pehea koe? It's not so much about what should we pull down, it's what we should be putting in place. And I think, like, just talking to some of the kaumatua, a monument to Matariki or to the seasons or things that are generally in our communities now. Ka waiho mau hei whakamihi atu ki a Toni. Kei te pai tena? He wharuarua nui tenei kua ngaro i a tatou i te ngarohanga o tenei rangatira o Toni. Waho, i roto, i ona karangaranga o te puku o te whenua. No reira, hei te pou o te reo. Hei te amo o te kura kaupapa Maori. Hei te whakawhirinaki o te kohanga reo. Hei te ahuatanga o roto i te matauranga kua ngaro nei i a tatou. Nana te ruirui i te matauranga ki runga ki nga tamariki o roto o mana tamariki, o roto o Pamutana, o roto o te ao Maori. Hei wharuarua nui tenei kua whakapuare tiaki te ao Maori. Toni, e hoa, kainga koe ki runga i te rangi amohia ake ra. Ko te ahuatanga o te matauranga. Kua maturuturu iho nei. Moe mai, moe mai ra. Kia ora. Kua hikina Te Hui mo tenei ra. Pai marire ki a tatou katoa. Captions by Tracey Dawson. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 ALL: He mea tautoko na Te Mangai Paho. The Hui is made with support from New Zealand On Air.