- Kei nga kanohi homiromiro, kei nga kanohi whakatatare ` rarau mai ki Te Hui. Ko Mihingarangi tenei e mihi atu nei ki a koutou katoa. Welcome to The Hui, Maori current affairs for all New Zealanders. E taro ake nei ` $17 million to reduce energy hardship for whanau left out in the cold. - How harsh are your winters? - It's bad. It's cold. - Why are so many New Zealanders struggling to pay their power bill? - They've been high. I couldn't pay them. - How high? - Well, one of them was $800. We ask the Minister for Energy, Megan Woods, if her energy price review will flip the switch on energy hardship. And with less than 50 days till the election, how is Labour planning to win the hearts and minds of Maori voters? (MAN CHANTS CHALLENGE) Willie Jackson joins me in the studio. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 Karahuihui mai. This week, the government announced a new $17 million packaged aimed at addressing energy hardship. It comes as more and more whanau say they're being left out in the cold. And nowhere is energy hardship felt more than in central North Island. Soon we'll ask the energy minister what the new package means for those communities. But first, let's take a look at some of the folk we've met along the way. In 2018, The Hui met the late Pixie Hepi Te Huia. Pixie and her mokopuna are sacrificing basic necessities to try and get their power bill down. You can see she's taken most of the light bulbs out of her home. At night, her mokos walk around in darkness. - Most of our money goes on power. And what's left over, that's food. And there's not much left over. In April 2019 we visited Sona Selwyn, who'd been disconnected in Taumarunui. - They disconnected my cable out there and hung it on the front of the house. If you want to have a look` - So actually disconnected you? - Yep. - I mean, why did they go to that extent? How much did you owe? - Uh, about 300. Then in June last year we met Lorna Rakena, who was forced to live without power for five months because of an outstanding energy bill belonging to her deceased grandmother. What was it like living in a house with no power with five kids? - Depressing. It was... Yeah, like, every day me and my partner were just... so broken. Many whanau in this region were hoping the government's Energy Price Review would bring relief. But under its recommendations, users in the central North Island could see a bill increase by as much as $40 a year. - 'Please yourself. If you don't pay your account, we will switch your power off.' So we've got no option. We've got no option. On the flip side, the Electricity Authority's new prudent discount plan could provide millions in savings to big business ` including the Tiwai Point smelter, which could have qualified for a $25 million discount. Joining me now is Minister for Energy Megan Woods. Tena koe. - Tena koe. - You came into government saying there's a need for electricity prices to be fair and affordable, not just efficient and competitive. So do you think you've found a balance? - I think what we've done is started a very substantial piece of work. The Electricity Price Review that we did brought together the most data that we've ever had. We could look down to the meshblock and understand exactly where energy hardship was being felt the most. And unsurprisingly, it matched deprivation indexes. - $17 million for the energy hardship. The last bail-out of Rio Tinto was $30 million. That's almost twice that. It's a drop in the bucket, isn't it? - Oh, look, what this is is a collection of some recommendations that the review made. It's only a subset in terms of making sure we're getting the consumer voice in there. But there's another programme of work that's going on alongside that, and that is about actually addressing some of the longer-run issues around how we price electricity and generation and wholesale rates. - Like in the King Country. Cos if you look in the King Country, where the lines company owns the power lines, families are paying two bills there ` one for power and one for the line that carries the power. And as you see in those clips, it's crippling for some whanau. So how has this review helped them? - Look, I think we all understand the issues that have been around the central North Island with the lines company there in terms of` - You came in saying that you were going to fix it. - But one of the things is there` Actually, in August, I think it was, or October 2018, there was a shift from what was a very complex way of doing pricing to a more simple methodology that would actually allow some fairer pricing to go there. It is by no means complete. And, look, I understand very well just how difficult it is when you struggle to pay the power bill. I know that a huge part of the work I do in winter in my electorate office is dealing with constituents who are struggling to pay their power bills. Gets pretty cold in the South Island. - They're not even paying their power bills cos they don't have any power because they can't afford them. So what is your message to them, the ones that are, in part of the year, living in the snow? - So one of the things we have to do is look at what we can do in the short term. And some of that is what you talked about in terms of the $17 million fund. But we understand that's not the job done. Some of it is about how it is that we do distribution in New Zealand; what alternative technologies offer. And you would have seen that this week we announced a pilot where we're looking at both our own state houses and Maori housing where we're going to put solar panels and batteries on. So we can understand what different kinds of distribution models look like. - They were doing that three years ago and they were told to take the solar panels off the state houses because they weren't allowed` That's Pixie Te Huia that was in there. So how long do they have to wait before they get some relief? - So what we've launched this week is we want to seriously look at what these technologies will look like. We're certainly not saying you have to take solar panels off state houses. - You are. - No, we're saying we're putting them on them. This is what we announced this week. - No, no, but you are. The state housing is telling them to take it off their houses. - But we announced this week a pilot where we are going to put them in. - So they're allowed to have them down in the King Country? - We are looking at what that technology can mean. We know that the future of electricity is a lot of it is going to be decentralised. - Can I just be clear? So in the King Country, where they did have a pilot project that the community had come up with putting solar power on their state houses so they could reduce the cost on the power, are they now allowed to do that? - That is certainly an area that we can look at. We've announced that we are doing these pilots this week. - Can they or can't they put a solar panel on their house? - What I'm saying is that we have committed, as a government. As both the Minister of Housing and Minister of Energy, this is something I have an interest in. And how it is that we can help some of the people who struggle most to pay their power bill. To see what these new technologies` if there's an area where there's already been community interest, that certainly will be an area that we could look to to do some of the trial. This is a shift from government. - This is also an area that The Hui has an interest in as well, and we've been telling these stories for three years. And a number of years ago, when you were in government, when you first came into government, you said you would look at the issue of solar panels on state housing. So can you please give us a time frame so we can tell these whanau? - So, we announced $24 million of funding this week for doing a trial on both state houses and Maori housing. - So this year? This year? - Yes. The money was in this year's budget, so that's work we want to roll out. What we have to understand is what kind of savings there actually are, whether or not it's best just to bypass the battery, do it direct to the hot-water cylinder, cos we know that's a third of anyone's power bill. So there's a range of things that we need to look at. - What about buying back the lines company with the PGF? - That` That isn't something that` I don't think there's even been an application for that. But there's some very long-run things we need to do about electricity pricing in New Zealand, one of which is, actually, open up the opportunities that our amazing renewable resources give us in terms of being the cheapest forms of electricity. And you've seen commitments from us as a government to make sure that that is the future that we're seeing for this country, not the highest-price fossil generation that we can have. - This coalition made a commitment to build houses. A thousand were promised in the first year. How many have you built? - So 452 is the number of KiwiBuild houses. And, look, we've been really upfront and honest with people that we didn't meet the targets, that we did have to go back and reset it. But one of the things that I think we can look with pride on is the number of state houses that we have built over our term in government. And it's the most in a generation. Is there more work to be done? Absolutely. And we are not giving up on affordable homes for New Zealanders. - Not every Maori lives in a state house, though. Let's look at the` You know, what you know is the home ownership rates are sliding for Maori and Pasifika. That was a consideration in the initial KiwiBuild plan. So how many of those 450 homes have gone to Maori whanau? How many new Maori homeowners do we have? - I don't actually have the data on how many. - Why not? Because that was a consideration. So you'd think you'd be monitoring and making sure that you're keeping up with the 20% that you promised that Maori would have an opportunity for. - One of the significant programmes that we have launched this term is, of course, our Progressive Home Ownership scheme that we have launched this year. - Would you be able to find out? - Oh, definitely we can find out. But the Progressive Home Ownership, obviously we're working with Nanaia Mahuta, who is an associate with a specific focus on Maori housing, that one of the things is that we're working with Maori housing providers around how we can work through progressive home ownership schemes as well. We know that that is going to be really important to lifting the rates of Maori home ownership. - Cool. Te Arawhiti, when the government won the election last time round, the prime minister made a powerful speech at Waitangi. She talked about bringing Te Whare Runanga and the Treaty House closer together; it was an analogy for Maori and Pakeha. How have you personally, in your roles as minister, brought the two houses closer together? - Well, I think if you think about the houses in terms of housing, I think that it's been something that I'm working really closely with Nanaia in terms of the Maori housing provider. This is a passion for me. The doctor bit of my name, my PhD thesis, was actually on Maori trade training and house building in the post-war period. - But those houses aren't for Maori whanau to have. Those are just housing that is on Maori land. - No, there's a range of measures. There's not just one. So when we launched the Progressive Home Ownership scheme, one of the things that I worked really closely with Nanaia on is making sure we were working with Maori providers so that we could actually have some targeted schemes that were going to Maori whanau. - The issue I have with that is you say that you are considering those Treaty obligations, except when you look at the KiwiBuild number you don't actually know. You're not tracking how many Maori are having the opportunity to get into home ownership. - I just don't have the number in front of me today. That's not to say that we don't have that data. - A percentage? - I don't have that, so I'm not going to guess at it. - But do you think it's at 20%, like was kind of suggested? - I'm not going to speculate. But one of the other things that we have done that I think has been really important and I've worked with Nanaia around is actually we have money in the budget for kaupapa Maori approaches to housing, that we realise there do have to be some specific measures; that we have to address very low rates of Maori home ownership. And this is something we have to address in a specific way and not just think there's one size fits all. And that is what we're committed to doing as a government. - Cool. COVID is also another portfolio that you have. We're told by Ashley Bloomfield to expect a second wave, that there could be` probably there would be community transmission. If there is, and given that you're planning, with all the border controls; iwi checkpoints ` are you in favour? - Well, I think what you're seeing from the government is that we're planning for a range of scenarios. And that's what any responsible government should do. We're doing everything that we can with our managed isolation facilities` - Are you working with those iwi in a Treaty partnership for them to protect their rohe? - That's not work I'm personally doing because my job is actually around the managed isolation facilities; it's not what happens if we have community outbreak. That will sit with Health and that will sit with police. But what we heard from the prime minister when we were at Level 4` - But you support them? - What we heard from the prime minister, and certainly I agree with her, is that by the time we got through with some of the iwi checkpoints were some really good partnerships with the police, that actually communities want to feel involved. There's a lot at stake. And we know that keeping COVID out of those communities has to be a priority for people. - Tena koe. Thanks for coming on this morning. Kia ora. - Thank you. ` Ko Megan Woods tera. Next, I speak to Willie Jackson about Oranga Tamariki, unemployment and the Maori electorates. Auraki mai ano. With just 40 days left to the election, the race is on to win the hearts and minds of Maori voters. While COVID-19 will define this election, there's a number of issues on the radar for Maori, including housing, employment and Oranga Tamariki. The Chief Ombudsman, Peter Boshier, report into the baby uplifts shows 74 babies were uplifted under that Section 78 between 2017 to 2019. It found that in 100% of the cases ` all of them ` OT used the most extreme powers as a routine way of uplifting those babies. Is that organisation out of control? - Well, the reality, it's been out of control for many years, so under Children and Young Persons, we all operated under that. I operated under that. And they were a disgrace, actually. And then when the Maori Party and National Party changed the name to Oranga Tamariki, did things change markedly? No, they didn't. But what has changed is we've got a minister who's come in and made a declaration that she's going to support what John Rangihau said 30 years ago, and try and bring in Maori kaupapa and partnership... - Puao Te Atatu. Everyone keeps talking about Puao Te Atatu. - That's right. And you've got a minister committed to it. - But I'll tell you what Mr Boshier said, he said in most of those cases, OT knew the babies, for months beforehand, were coming, but still they made those late decisions to uplift without any expert advice and without any whanau involvement. What happened to engaging with Maori? - Oh, absolutely. And it's a fair question, and I've been reading all the stuff in terms of` - So what changes really have happened? - I've been reading all the stuff about Oranga. Not acceptable, and it's really concerning. The changes have to be with us, with Maori. There has to be a real partnership with Maori. And I think you've got a minister committed to that. We're seeing that slowly. Just the other day you saw the partnership in terms of Maori Women's Welfare. Look for an announcement in the next couple of weeks with the Urban Authorities. I took Tracey Martin in to meet with Waipareira end of last year, and her team have been work at the coalface. Here's the reality, Mihi. Look, the place is not going to dismantle; it's not going to go away. - Yeah, but you passed a law which actually enforced Oranga Tamariki to-to devolve the resources and give the power to Maori,... - That's right. That's right. - ...and here we have 74 babies who've been uplifted with no whanau or iwi consideration. - That's right. Well, that's not good enough. And I` - How many chances do you get? - But here's the reality. Those partnerships have to happen sooner rather than later. - You've had three years. - Maori Women's Welfare was just announced the other day. Look for something to happen in terms of the urban authorities in the next couple of weeks. There's more and more iwi relationships happening. You and I know that the job hasn't been good enough, but the partnership has not evolved properly and it's not happening with Maori. You've got a minister who's admitted that, but a minister who's committed to rolling this kaupapa out. So I'm encouraged by what I'm hearing from her. - Why isn't Oranga Tamariki under a Maori minister? - Who knows what's gonna happen in the future? - 69% of those tamariki are Maori. Wouldn't it make sense that a Maori minister would understand those whanau? - But this is a minister` This is a minister` I've never seen a Pakeha minister like this who's said, 'Yes, there's a lot wrong, but however, we're going to try and make changes; 'however, I'm committed to`' - Yet 74 babies have been taken using extreme power in a routine way. - But sometimes these things take a while to happen. Why can't` - The dames` Your mates the dames ` Merepeka, Tariana, Tureiti, Iritana and Naida, they say that Grainne Moss should go. Should she? - Well, no, I can't` As you know, I can't comment on the CEO. But what I can` - Are you being guided by them? Because` - No, I'm being guided` I work` - Are you listening to them? Are you getting choice phone calls from them? - Well, I don't have to listen to them cos I worked out on the` - Don't you represent them? ` Mihi, can you just give us a second here? I worked out there, as you know, before a number of them, actually. In fact, 25 years ago I was involved in taking babies and looking after whanau and looking after Maori. And so... And I've worked with those dames. And what they're saying is quite right, things have not shaped up. But the future is in partnerships and in devolvement and working with our people. The place is not going to dismantle. Whatever they do with the CEO, we'll see what happens. But I know that you've got a minister who's committed to going forward. I've asked her to work through the noise. - Mm. - She's been called a racist and everything, yet she still sets up partnerships with Maori Women's Welfare, and she's looking at setting up a partnership in terms of the urban Maori authorities and working with John Tamihere. I think that's a good way forward; I think there's light at the end of the tunnel. - Ka pai. The Maori seats. What are your polls suggesting? - Well, we haven't really been looking at the polls. All we know is that it's gonna be a challenge in all seven seats. The challenge is coming from everywhere, you know, not just one party. There's another party that's jumped up and down and said that we're not delivering for Maori voters. But we have been getting a lot of support from Maori voters. Look at all the success we've had, Mihi. If you look at the history in schools; the record investment in Whanau Ora; I've had more Maori working than ever before; unemployment figures the best ever in terms of Maori. - But with the coalition you've been frustrated in some of the blockings that's happened with New Zealand First. Like, for example, the social procurement, when Maori could have had billions of dollars, or access to, businesses, Ihumatao. I guess three years ago you came on here and said, 'You've gotta do deals in the seats.' - Yeah. - So would you do a deal with the Greens, New Zealand First or the Maori Party? What would you prefer? - We've gotta deal with that when it comes up. All I know is it's been a huge success for Maori. We've got procurement across the line with Labour. But, you know, the reality is you've got coalition that you have to deal with. In terms of Ihumatao, well, we've undone what the Maori Party and National Party did, which was set up a special housing project. And there's a lot of hope for Ihumatao. But, look, record investment in terms of kohanga reo. Record investment in terms of Whanau Ora. More Maori judges than ever before. More Maori on district health boards. You should be voting for us, you and Annabelle Lee. - 6.7% unemployment. It's not as bad as some people predicted. But experts say that, looking at the third term, it can get worse for Maori. I guess what's your message to those Maori that are falling out of jobs? 37,000 that are not working. - The reality is we've been investing in Maori. We had a great strategy pre-COVID in terms of investing in Maori, in terms of programmes like Poutama Rangatahi, Mana in Mahi. We've got a lot of projects out there ` infrastructure, we've got $12 billion investment there; we've got shovel-ready projects. There's a lot of jobs there for Maori. In terms of the general putea, apprenticeships, we've got $2 bil` - So are you feeling confident? - Oh, I'm confident that there's a lot of jobs there for Maori and we'll work with them. You know, I've got my Maori apprenticeships kaupapa, Mana in Mahi. I'm confident that things are gonna be better than what people thought it was. We've had a wage subsidy that hit 1.7 million people. Hundreds of thousands of Maori have benefited. So I get tired of the criticism, cos we've got a great Maori caucus that's looking forward to winning the seven Maori seats, Mihi. - Kia ora. Thank you for joining us this morning. - Kia ora. - Ko Willie Jackson tera. Kia mau tonu mai ra te titiro. Ka hoki mai Te Hui akuanei. Auraki mai ano. A new podcast is lifting the lid on the inequity Maori experience in the health system. 'Getting Better' is both confronting and heartening, and it's sparking important conversations around Aotearoa. It's presented by trainee doctor and award-winning writer Emma Espiner, and she joins me now. Tena koe te tuakana. - Kia ora. Win one award, eh. (LAUGHS) - It's always a good look. - I'm gonna wear it. - Yeah, you do that. I guess it is very confronting, this series. And I've listened to a couple of the eps. And I feel like, you know, you meet those families and you feel like you already know those families. What have you learnt from this? - So, that was kind of what we set out to do. I mean, we were looking at the facts that we already know about the health system. We've known for decades. And we're trying to communicate them in all sorts of different ways and not really seeing any meaningful change. And so with my comms background, I thought maybe there's a way to tell the story a bit differently that might engage people more. And it seems to have worked. I mean, people really connected with the Wallace whanau in the first episode. And a lot of people said, 'Oh, I can't believe this is happening.' And for those of us that have been talking about it for ages, that's like, 'That's really interesting.' And so having a real whanau and people to connect with has made a real difference. - You would've` As you're learning about medicine, you would've known that this happens. But actually being there and seeing it and hearing it for yourself, did you get surprised? Were you surprised or confronted by the reality of it? - Yeah, and there was a lot of crying, to be honest. And that's the thing. Papaarangi Reid talks about the data doesn't speak for itself and that we have to speak for it and be conscious of our responsibility when we do that. And so it was really taking what we'd learnt and what you see on paper and what we see in the wards and trying to communicate that to the rest of New Zealand. - You say in the series that the issue is that new doctors and new nurses and staff are learning about unconscious bias, they're learning about history and all those kinds of things, but the problem is that they come into the system at this level, and there's all this still there, so what is the solution? - And that's really true. We have amazing teaching at the University of Auckland ` Papaarangi and Elana Curtis and Rhys Jones, etc. And then you enter the system and you're like, 'We've got this best practice model that we've all been taught and we're not seeing it played out.' And, you know, that's the work of decades' worth of change. In saying that, though, I had one senior doctor message me and say, 'Don't give up on us. We can learn.' And that was really encouraging. And I think there's two main types of feedback that I've been getting. One is from my colleagues, so Maori students and doctors saying, 'I feel seen,' which is really affirming because I really made it mostly for them and for our whanau. But also non-Maori doctors saying that they're enjoying listening to it, they're finding it really confronting, but they're committed to doing something differently. So that's hugely positive, from my perspective. - You mentioned Te Ropu Whakakaupapa, and I know when COVID was happening they were really struggling to be heard in this big system, even though we're meant to be totally aware of unconscious bias and things like that. When` So this episode deals with racism or unconscious bias when you're dealing with whanau. What about when you're a med student inside the system? - Yeah. And just back to that point about the ropu not getting the appropriate coverage, that's a systemic thing in the media, right? And sometimes we see our senior Maori colleagues asked to talk about Maori issues only, but not more broadly about public health in the areas that they have expertise in as well, so that's really interesting to watch. And also that they set themselves up. This wasn't something that was driven out of a great government idea. It was like, 'This is a massive gap for Maori and we need to do something about it.' So that's really interesting. Um, what was your question? - As a med student inside of the organisation, even though you've been taught to recognise it, do you still suffer some unconscious bias inside? - I think some of my colleagues do more than others. And some of us are more visible than others. And I think that plays a part. Um, so it's definitely happening. Another interesting dynamic there is we get marked on` So every attachment that we do, we're marked on whether we are culturally safe, so whether you can tick the hauora Maori box. And we sometimes have feedback from senior clinicians that, 'Oh, I don't know enough to assess you on that.' So they write 'not assessed'. So that... You know, even that kind of thing really just devalues what we've been taught. - Yes, the kaupapa. - And this is concerning for my non-Maori colleagues as well, because they put in the effort to learn about Te Tiriti and health equity, and then you're getting that kind of feedback. So, yeah, there are a lot of different ways that that plays out. - Any ideas of what you'll do next? I mean, of course you're gonna become a doctor. - (CHUCKLES) - But now that you've done this and you can see the value in it, anything new? A second series? - Well, I think` I mean, I need to become a good clinician next. And so this is really cool to do in my final year at medical school, because even though it's really intense, I've had some time... And it's really taken us the last 18 months, probably, to work on. So I'll probably go quiet for a while because I need to be a good clinician first. And then we'll see. - Where can we hear it? - So, it's on the RNZ website, and then any podcast platform. - Ka pai. Tena koe. - Kia ora. - Hei tera wiki, he kaupapa taiao. - The breath-taking coast of Te Tairawhiti is being swamped by forestry slash. - Every time we get heavy rain now, more slash is deposited on the beach. - And locals are being forced to live with the environmental impacts. - We need a guarantee that it will not happen again. - So is the forestry industry doing enough to clean up its act? - I don't think they care about the communities. I think they care about their balance sheets. - And is forestry a sustainable economy in Aotearoa? - Don't stigmatise an entire industry because of these episodic floods. - Kua hikina Te Hui mo tenei ra. Newshub Nation is next. Pai marire ki a tatou katoa. Captions by Tracey Dawson. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 ALL: He mea tautoko na Te Mangai Paho.