- Today on Newshub Nation ` Peeni Henare on why he deserves to be health minister. On the campaign trail in Rotorua with Vision New Zealand leader Hannah Tamaki. And what will James Shaw's mistake cost the Green Party this election? www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 Kia ora, good morning. I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. In breaking news this morning, former Cook Islands Prime Minister Dr Joe Williams has died. He was in hospital battling COVID-19. He was a respected doctor in Auckland and his medical practise was near Americold's Mt Wellington facility. New Zealand has ranked 35 out of 41 countries in UNICEF's annual child wellbeing report. UNICEF quoted terrifying levels of child obesity, illiteracy and suicide. And James Shaw came under fire this week after withholding $3 billion of government funding until $12 million was promised to a private Green School. Shaw has apologised, and Judith Collins is calling for his resignation. Well, as we heard, Dr Joe Williams, former Cook Islands prime minister and medical doctor in Auckland has died. He was admitted to hospital suffering from COVID-19 in mid-August. Here's Emma Cropper with this tribute. - Joe Williams dedicated more than 50 years of his life to being a doctor. - Caring for the sick, particularly the Pacific people, that's what motivates me most. - And it was there in the Pacific Islands he fought for change, becoming a politician in the Cook Islands in the '70s. Then in 1999, he briefly became prime minister, despite mostly not living in the islands, then losing the role within months to a vote of no confidence. However, his commitment to improving the lives of his people remained unabated. The life of the whole country, in its broader sense, the economic life, the education, the welfare and the health of the people. - Eczema was one fight he saw too many facing, including himself. He suffered from it while studying to be a doctor at Otago University. Because of that, he created a miracle cream to treat it. That changed the lives of thousands all over New Zealand and the Pacific. - He cured our son from a lifetime of agony and pain. He has a special place in our heart. - I think he deserves a knighthood. - Dermatologists questioned his work, but just two years ago, his life's work was recognised. - It's not often... that I run out of words. - Joe Williams always said the world was built on dreams. - My last goal is to make sure that the millions of children worldwide will be free of this disease. - A goal that saw him working to help and heal others throughout his life. Emma Cropper reporting there. Grief in Auckland and the Cook Islands today. Well, staying with COVID-19, new modelling says Maori who catch the virus are 50% more likely to die from it than non-Maori. The most recent of many reports pointing to a health system that is not working for Maori whanau. - The Waitangi Tribunal has released a damning report on inequity in the healthcare system. - They are in a world that they don't understand. And then they are treated by a whole other paradigm of people who don't actually understand them. - I can't see any benefits at the flax roots on the ground as yet. - This is 2020, and Maori actually want to be able to do for themselves. - Hold us to account. - (CALLS) - I'm not prepared to have more of the same. I'm over it. - REPORTER: The risk of dying from COVID is 50% higher for Maori and Pacific Islanders than other New Zealanders. There's a greater chance Maori and Pacific Island communities will have unmet healthcare needs, and they're more likely to have underlying conditions like heart disease. So when you take all these factors into account, their overall risk is much higher than other ethnicities. Well, Peeni Henare is associate health minister with special responsibilities for Maori health, a role he's held for the last 15 months. We spoke on Friday, and I asked him ` what's the plan to keep Maori just as safe from COVID-19 as non-Maori? - Yeah, look, we are engaging with Te Ropu Whakakaupapa Uruta, which is the Maori, basically, medical experts who are advising on matters regarding COVID-19, but let's also be clear about the picture in that report. It says that due to comorbidities that exist pre-COVID,... - Yep. ...they are more at risk of passing. So there's got to be a bigger piece of work, obviously, to tackle things like diabetes and obesity in our communities. - Right. So that's going to just keep in place, concrete in place, inequities already existing. Is that what COVID's going to do? - Well, what it's done is it's made it far more acute, and it's brought it to the surface where not just the government but others are also realising that, you know what, this problem's always been there, but COVID-19 has certainly highlighted it. - Yeah. So what are you going to do about COVID-19, in particular, to stop this happening? - So` Yeah, look, so, the COVID response that we've done since March has seen quite a large amount of money put into Maori. Our responsiveness to COVID-19, the first wave, we had $56 million. That was a combination of Health, Te Puni Kokiri for Maori development, as well as Whanau Ora. Uh, the 2020 Budget also had a huge increase for Whanau Ora of $137 million. - Yeah, so, where is that going? I mean, is that going into primary health organisations? Is that going into education campaigns? Where is it going? - So that's going to the social support that whanau need right now. It goes through via Whanau Ora commissioning agencies, then it goes into Maori providers in our community. They're the ones with the reach out to our families, and they provide support not just for the individual but for the entire family, which the report you highlighted shows that you must focus on the whanau in order to deal to some of those inequities. If you don't and only focus on the individual, you'll see the problem grow. I would say there is quite a fear of COVID for Maori communities, and in South Auckland, it seems to be driving students away from school. I mean, do you know how many Maori students are staying away from school because of the fear of COVID ending up in their communities or in their whanau? - No, I don't know officially, but I have seen some reports. For example, the Manurewa High School principal who said somewhere around 10%, if I recall correctly. This isn't a new issue, people leaving school, but acute` more acute during COVID-19. I understand the Minister of Education is working with schools to make sure where we can, we can bring people back to school and encourage whanau to send their kids back to school, but we acknowledge it is hard. And some of those young people have gone out to do what's best for their family. And in that vein, there are a number of kaupapa there where we can support them through apprenticeships, further training and development into careers. - Because you're responsible for youth and Whanau Ora and Maori health. There are these are health and family issues in the South Auckland, and they're worried that if they get COVID in their family, it's going to be an economic disaster as well as a health disaster. - Yes, that's exactly right. And we've been clear ` our best economic response is health response. So all of those must be factored into when we work with families. Now, yesterday, I visited The Fono, who are one of the big providers in South Auckland for Pacific and Maori families out there, and when they COVID test, they don't simply just COVID test. They health check the family, they look how they might continue to support them socially, and it's in those discussions and engagement they see, OK, some of these young people need assistance to get back to school. And once we identify that, we can better serve them. - OK. Are you happy that you have been visible enough in terms of the government's response for Maori and COVID? I ask that because in March you said you seem to support roadblocks, but since then, I haven't really seen you on the national stage. - Look, in the most recent wave, I've been clear that our focus was in Tamaki Makaurau. - But you're a minister. You're responsible for the whole country. - That's right. And in the recent wave, it was Tamaki-Makaurau-centric. I myself was on lockdown here in Tamaki Makaurau, and I don't consider myself an essential worker like our nurses and front-line workers, but I've been more than involved in the communications, as well as meeting with the likes of the Maori medical experts group, iwi leaders, community leaders on these matters so that we can better serve our whanau. - Do you think the Maori community want to see you on television, say, beside the Health Minister or the Prime Minister up there, giving a message of support to the Maori community? - Look, I'll be clear from the first wave, we learnt that, actually, our communications with our Maori people can be stronger. So in the most recent wave, I myself was given the opportunity to speak. In fact, I had a number of interviews every day on Maori communication channels as well as mainstream. So I've been more than happy with the kind of engagement I've had` - But you haven't been` Like, the 1 o'clock presser is the place` the place of truth, as the Prime Minister says. Should you have been there? - A little bit hard when we're on lockdown in Tamaki Makaurau. I also didn't want to abandon my constituents by heading to Wellington. I think I was best able to serve them by being here, talking with the community, engaging with them and then feeding them` - But the previous health minister did the same response, and he didn't get that centre place. The Health Minister, Chris Hipkins, has decided to do that. Just for Maori people, should you have been there occasionally? - Uh, look, I'll take that on board. Look, I'm happy with the Maori engagement that we've had, and I do hear some of the criticism that I wasn't standing next to the Prime Minister, but you don't need to do that to have effective communication. And I've been more than happy with the communication we've had to date. - OK, so you believe that you have been effective enough in communication in this second wave for Maori people around the country, not just Tamaki Makaurau? - Yes. And so through the network of our Maori caucus and the seven Maori seat holders, we met regularly, where they were able to feed back what's happening in their communities. I was able to relay information to them that they could share in their communities. My colleague Minister Davis engaged regularly with the Iwi Chairs Forum. In fact, I think it was every two days he engaged with them, as well as Tamaki leaders here, of which I was a part of those discussions too. - You're not in Cabinet, right? And you're not part of the COVID Cabinet. So when decisions are being made about alert levels and response to COVID-19 for Maori, where are you? Are you happy that you're being represented enough in those decision-making processes? - Yes, I am. So, we've still got Minister Davis and Minister Mahuta in there, but I'm on the call that happens every day with the All of Government Response Group. That's the All of Government Group, as well as the ministers that are involved there, which includes the Prime Minister, the Health Minister, Finance Minister and Minister Woods. - So you're heavily involved? - I'm heavily involved. Every day, I'm on those calls. I'm in regular communication with the Prime Minister, and I'm happy with the kind of communication loop we've had this time around. - Maori have, on average, the poorest health status of any ethnic group in New Zealand, and you say that COVID-19 is making it more acute. Do you worry that the laser focus on COVID-19 means that's going to come at the expense of other services? - That's a very good question. Now, that's what our focus has to be. In the recent Budget, there was an announcement of some money to look towards assisting DHBs to catch up on those procedures... - Like those medical waiting lists. Things like that. - Right. Those medical matters that have been pushed down the priority list because of COVID-19. We're keeping a close eye on this. I've been in contact with the DHBs across the country to say we cannot minimise the kind of focus on Maori that's needed to meet our health inequities. So we've got a strong push there. - So can you tell me whether surgical waiting times have blown out for Maori as a result of COVID-19? - My reports from my officials is that it hasn't. - It hasn't? - It hasn't. We are keeping a close eye on it. The problem isn't those who are on the waiting list alone; it's those who don't present forward with the medical conditions, and it's those families who we are starting to uncover through testing through COVID. We're starting to see families in South Auckland, for example, who come forward for COVID but all of a sudden, a better health assessment means we're able to see that they actually need more service and care. - So that's indicative of a problem with the health system now. Another new report this week says a negative health impact of racism is irrefutable, and there's calling for action. So, therefore, is it time to create a separate Maori health authority? - Yes, so, we've been working with the Waitangi Tribunal claimants on that matter, and we've said that we're committed to working towards a Maori health authority. The devil is in the detail there. Are we looking to set up simply another bureaucracy that distributes money? Or are we setting up a kind of agency that Maori across the country will feel serves their needs at the moment? - And what do you favour? Do you favour a fully funded commissioning Maori health authority or one that is a bureaucracy, as you call it? - I certainly don't favour bureaucracy. I certainly don't favour that. I'd like to see more resources going into those vulnerable communities, like the Maori community, and I believe that a track towards a Maori health authority will do that. We've been working with, like I said, the claimants from the Waitangi Tribunal. You'll recall, of course, the Simpson Review, which made it quite clear. - Yeah, but the Simpson Review is interesting because there were two models proposed for that, and the favoured model was one which had minimal funding. Is that what you favour? - That's the recommendation of those who were on that panel. And you're right there were two offered. - Yeah. - The government, as yet, haven't decided on which one or whether or not any of them. What we are focussed on, however, though, is changing and improving the health system, and Maori have to be at the forefront of that. - But if you're favouring a Maori health authority or agency, if you put one in place which has lip service or tokenism, you know, where Maori may have a say but the Pakeha or the bureaucracy makes the decisions and decides where the funding goes, - that is tokenism, isn't it? - That's right, and we don't want that. I was clear` - So therefore, the only real answer to this is a fully funded and have full commissioning powers for a Maori health agency? - Yeah. So, I take your point, but this is what I'll say to that. If you travel to Kaitaia, you'll see that their needs might not necessarily match to others. You talk to a tribe and they say, 'We want mana motuhake. We want what's right for our people, 'whether it's in Ngapuhi, Ngati Porou down in Taranaki.' So what we've got to do, then, is design a model that will better suit all of those interests for our people, and I think we can do that. - OK, you can do that? I mean, is it not one-size-fits-all if you have one agency? - Uh, now you're walking down a naughty path there, because if you do have a one-size-fits-all for Maori, I think you'll find tribes and hapu and whanau won't be that agreeable to that. So I do think we can actually find a good balance there and serve our people. - OK. Are you presenting these ideas to various iwi? Are you there, visible, saying this is what I'm pushing for? - We are engaging with iwi. We have been, and I have been in the 14 months I've been Associate Health Minister talking with iwi. I talked about meeting with the claimants that went to the Waitangi Tribunal who are representative of a number of organisations, including the National Hauora Coalition. - And what about the Prime Minister, and what about the Health Minister? Are they on board with this? - Well, look, I know I've spoken to both the Prime Minister and the Health Minister. The Health Minister and myself met with the Waitangi Tribunal claimants to talk through their concerns and the recommendations of the tribunal, and we've made a commitment to them to work with them to achieve those. One of those recommendations is a Maori health authority. - OK. You're on record as saying that you want to be the health minister if this government wins election. Is that correct? - Yes. I put my hand up. - OK. Uh, do you think or can you point to something that you have done in your time as associate minister that entitles you to that role? - Oh, look, we've worked hard in the 14 months I've been the Associate Health Minister. I think we've done a great job at re-engaging Maori. We've tied Whanau Ora into Health so that we can make sure that, as I've said, we focus on the whanau, because if we focus on the individual, which is what we've been doing for how long now, we find that we're not addressing the needs of family. I'm committed to making sure that Whanau Ora is one of those models that will see the betterment of our people. - So in your pitch to the Prime Minister post-election, if you're re-elected, what would you say? - I'd say to the Prime Minister, look, we have an opportunity here to do something rather special to recreate and redesign the health system. Maori are at the forefront of inequities, therefore, Maori, I think, should take a lead in making sure we have a redesign of the health system that best suits our people. - Minister, thank you very much for your time today. - Tena koe. - All right, if you've got something to say about what you've seen on our show, please let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, Newshub Nation NZ, or you can email us at Nation@MediaWorks.co.nz. But still to come, analysis of the week's political news with our panel, Marg Joiner and Shane Te Pou. Plus, the Kiwi drag queen Taipei Popcorn on how Taiwan's beating the virus. Welcome back. As the saying goes, it ain't easy being Green, especially this week. Co-leader James Shaw repeatedly apologised for approving an $11.7 million grant for a private Green School in Taranaki. - Kia ora, good evening. James Shaw has admitted he may have shot the Green Party's election hopes in the foot by funding the controversial Green School. - The decision that I made to support this project was an error of judgement for which I apologise. I apologise to parents, to teachers and to unions. I apologise to Green Party members who have been working tirelessly in their communities to make sure that the Greens are a part of the next government. I didn't hold anybody to ransom. - If you can't win by logic and by reason and by the soundness of your proposal, then that's no way to behave. - Politics won, the Green School won, and New Zealand taxpayers lost, and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. - What we've seen from James Shaw is absolute rank hypocrisy. I thought he was going to resign yesterday. - Have you reconsidered offering your resignation? - No. - JACINDA: Obviously, as a coalition government, working with three different parties, there'll often be different perspectives. - Do you recognise that this may have jeopardised your chances of returning to Parliament? - Oh, look. I thought I said that at the beginning. My apologies. It's very clear. There's no denying that already we were hovering around 5%. - So it is a risk, and I understand that. I don't think this is a resignation-level event. What I saw was an opportunity to employ hundreds of people. If I was making the same decision again, I would not support the project. Well, look, I feel terrible about the way that this has played out. - Well, more than a week on the story, and the outrage just didn't seem to go away. So why is that? And has it damaged the Greens' re-election chances? I'm joined now by former Green Party Communications and Policy Director David Cormack. Thank you for your time this morning. - Kia ora. - I just wonder why has James Shaw's funding of the Green School created such a storm? - Well, I think it's created more of a storm within media circles because traditionally the Greens are, sort of, above board, and they don't deal in politicking, and they don't tend to make these sorts of slip-ups. And we see one slip-up from the Greens, and suddenly everybody pounces, you know? We've seen oodles of slip-ups from New Zealand First; we've seen oodles of slip-ups from National. But the Green Party, when they make a mistake, everyone really pays a lot of attention and starts yelling at them. - So is the perception that the Greens,... sort of, have the moral high ground and that any kind of little mistake is a big, big faux pas? - Yeah, I think a lot of people do have that perception, you know? They tend to refuse to take part in politicking, despite my best efforts when I was working there. And they work really hard to stay moral and above the fray. And we had in this a sort of perfect conflagration of the initial story, which upset the base because it was funding a private school, and then the second wave that came in with the crystals, because you had the people that might be soft Green voters, but they're a bit wary of the anti-science perception, and so that scares them as well. So it's sort of a perfect-storm story for them. - STAMMERS: Yes. But the other issue here was James Shaw ` the revelation that he was sort of holding out to get this across the line and pushing back against other projects until this got signed off. That was a really bad look as well. - Yeah, but that's giving James a lot more power and influence than I think he actually has. So I think what you had there is all of the associate finance spokespeople had the list of projects, and they were all negotiating over what projects could go ahead and what projects can't. It's not like the party who's not even in coalition, who's just confidence and supply, has got this power over both New Zealand First and Labour to make those decisions. So I think that was just a malicious leak from perhaps one of the coalition parties to try and keep this story bubbling along. - And who do you suspect of leaking that? - Oh, well, I couldn't possibly comment, but it's a party that might not be doing as well as perhaps other parties in government. - All right. Well, let's talk about Winston Peters. No link, of course. But Winston Peters was very vocal in his criticism. Do you think that's hypocritical? - I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical. It's classical Winston, you know? They're deep in the mires of 1%, so they're looking around desperately for anything to give them attention and publicity. And they've spent the last three years impeding progress, and so now they're trying to campaign on that. And so as soon as he sees an opportunity to start barking, he'll take it. - Do you think James Shaw and the Greens handled this well? It took a while for the apology. And then once he'd done it, he just... it was radio silence. - See, I think the thing is is that James has spent the last three years really myopically focused on climate change, right? And he's pretty much been... the Greens have been the only party really focused on this. He got the Zero Carbon Bill passed with consensus across the House. And I think he looked at this list of projects, and he was looking for something that was climate change-oriented, because you had the first infrastructure announcement pre-COVID. And there was a lot of criticism that it was all roads and it was things that were not very good for the environment. And so he was really looking for something that was carbon zero, and he sees this project that's carbon zero, and he forgets how it intersects with the other Green Party policy around not funding private schools. And so he leaps at that as an opportunity. And that's just because he's a man of integrity, and they have spent the last three years focused on climate change, whereas New Zealand First has spent the last three years impeding progress; National spent the last three years trying to find a leader; the Greens are focused on climate change. It is their bread and butter. - OK, but let's... In the lead-up to elections, we had Metiria Turei last election, James Shaw this election. I mean, do you think this is going to affect the Green Party's chance of re-election, of getting above the 5% threshold? - I mean, yeah, on first blush, it might turn some people off, but I've had a lot of messages from people that have actually told me that they are more resolute in supporting the Greens, because what other party has their leader own up to it and apologise to not just the public, but to actually` He held a Zoom call with the membership and talked to the membership about his decision-making. We don't see that accountability at all, you know? Just this week, when Judith Collins' husband was accused of horrific memes about the prime minister, she refused to take any ownership of it whatsoever. James fronted up, owned it, and then stood and made an apology. That's a man full of integrity. - Do you think this man full of integrity should have then come out on their political attack afterwards and to raise those kinds of issues, to separate himself? - I don't necessarily think... I don't think he should have come out on the attack, but I think that he can demonstrate that, yeah, he is a person that does own his mistakes, and he did make a mistake. He admitted it. He said he wouldn't do it again. And if he could change it, he would have. And so isn't that what we want from our politicians? We actually want them to be accountable. Cos if we all jump down their throat if they make a mistake and then apologise, then people are just not going to apologise. They're just gonna try and hide their own mistakes. - Do you think that this, in any way, jeopardises James Shaw's leadership, either prior to the election or post-election? - No, I don't. I mean, there's always been a suspicion from the far left side of the Greens of James. I don't think that those numbers will have grown. I mean, James almost single-handedly dragged the Greens over the 5% line in the last election after Metiria was hounded out. And so I think that he's got a lot of capital in the bank from that. And he did get the Zero Carbon Bill passed. He did get the oil and gas ban done. So he's actually achieved an awful lot for climate change, far more than any other party or minister has done in New Zealand's history. - David Cormack, former Communications and Policy Director for the Green Party. Thanks very much for your time this morning. All right. When it comes to controlling COVID, look no further than Taiwan ` population, 24 million; total COVID cases, 489. How have they done it? Well, Kiwi Nick Van Halderen, AKA drag queen Taipei Popcorn, has lived through Taiwan's response and sent us a video diary of his 2020 experience. - Kia ora. Hi. My name is Nick. - # I'm going in hard. # This is the start. # - (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - This is my standard going out. Gotta wear a mask, basically, as soon as I get on public transport. - Up till now, we've had maybe more than 130, 140 days with zero cases, so it's been many months and only cases caught at the border. So life here is pretty back to normal. The videos I took of the performance I did on Saturday, there are really not many checks in place in bars any more. That's an outdoor bar. So they removed a lot of the social distancing requirements for most places, because it's basically assumed that there's no virus in the community right now. In the end of December, they started checking flights from Wuhan, because there was already a discussion about some kind of pneumonia emerging on Chinese social media. People started wearing more masks. Obviously with the SARS experience, they were a lot more wary of any kind of pandemic or outbreak. But when I talked to my family in New Zealand, it was seen as something that was happening over here and not really connected to the rest of the world. Medical masks. We usually wrap them in a washable cover. So every time you go to the doctor, you give this card, they check your microchip. So it's got all your medical records on it. You can collect, at a very cheap price, your government ration masks. You could do that from the beginning. The school where I work was... the whole time, we had to wear masks, temperature check, hand sanitiser. So that was instituted basically everywhere by then. Like every cafe, restaurant throughout February, they started rolling in those checks. So it really felt very... something that was right in the middle of here, because obviously the proximity between the two countries is very close. There are a lot of flights going back and forth. They did, like, data set comparison between immigration and the healthcare system. So this was before there was a quarantine. They could cross-check who had come in to Immigration and then who was reporting respiratory symptoms in the hospital or in a clinic. And with that, they actually caught one or two cases as well. So there's been a huge focus on using data. I remember even in March, I was talking to my parents who were flying down to Dunedin. My dad is an animal epidemiologist. They were still thinking maybe it was not going to be as big of a deal. I think just the way it was perceived in New Zealand was not as serious, even by early March. But here, we had, like, a small rise in cases, and then they closed, like, the nightclubs, so I couldn't perform as a drag queen any more. But I was still able to teach every day, went on the Mass Rail Transit subway system every day, and then they introduced mandatory mask-wearing on MRT with a fine, I think about in March as well. So by then, New Zealand was in lockdown. We just continued here. Luckily, we managed to contain. We had more and more days of zero cases, and the community spread was basically stamped out through just people being careful. The quarantine system here is a little bit more draconian than the New Zealand system. So they actually track your cell phone when you arrive here. They see if you leave the house with your phone. They will immediately go and find out where you are. And then on top of that, they also send a compliance officer to monitor, to just at random times to do spot checks to make sure you're home. So you can just quarantine here at home, as long as you have your own space where you're not interacting with anyone else. But, yeah, we all still do a lot of shows. We can have full audience. All the drag queens and drag kings I know are getting booked. Taipei Fashion Week is next month. I can go and model in that. So there's a lot of commercial and artistic festival activity, things like that happening, which just shows the state of the economy here. It's still very open. So overall, it feels pretty promising and pretty prosperous and like everything's been managed very well here. It's like a real bubble. Like, I can't quite believe what I read in the news every day in the rest of the world, because here it feels totally insulated from that. - Taipei Popcorn there. Up next ` plenty to discuss with our political panel, Marg Joiner and Shane Te Pou. Plus, Labour's Helen White on why voters should give Auckland Central to her. Welcome back. She was 1500 votes shy of winning Auckland Central at the 2017 election. Now Labour's Helen White must take down both Chloe Swarbrick and Emma Mellow. for the battleground seat. We gave her five minutes to explain why 2020 should finally be her year. - What I've got is really a very long history in the electorate, real connections in it. I did go to Freeman's Bay Primary School, though it was called Napier Street back then. I'm very connected and I care deeply about that community. And I actually do bring a lot of skills and perspectives that are really attributes. So things like` - You got a lot of criticism earlier this year when you sort of dismissed some of Chloe Swarbrick's profile as celebrity. Was that a mistake? - Actually, it wasn't as it was reported. If you look at the question, the question was about me and my profile and what I was trying to say, and what I actually will say again, is it's really important that people without high public profiles come into politics. Lots of us have been doing other things with our lives. - You did say, 'I'd ask voters whether they're looking for a celebrity 'or someone that would take the job very seriously.' Isn't the implication of that, that she's not a serious politician? That's what you said. - I will tell you what I said. Actually, what I said was` - That is what you said. I've got the quote here. - And I will tell you why I said it and what I said. So the question I was asked was about my profile. RNZ, who were asking me those questions had gone out and vox popped people in the street about whether they knew me. We didn't even have billboards up. And so I was I was talking about me and my public profile and how it wasn't necessary. What the voters needed to think about was not about whether I had a high public profile or was a celebrity, but whether I could do the hard work. And that's what I said. And I stand by it. - Let's talk transport. National's called Light Rail in Auckland a failed experiment. Tell me why it's not. - I hope it's not over yet. I think it isn't. I think we're absolutely moving towards it and will move towards it. - But three years with nothing to show for it, that is a failure. - (SIGHS) I don't think it's a failure, but I think, in fact, in some ways I think it needed the development that it's had. I think it was a little bit needing refining, and I think it still does. I think it needs to be very, very prudent use of money and we need to make sure that it's absolutely right. - Let's talk environment. You've called the Hauraki Gulf the jewel in the crown of Auckland, but environmentalists say it's on the brink of ecological collapse. What would you do to reverse that? - Well, actually, I think that's a real opportunity right now in terms of the shovel-ready projects. Like, the there's quite a lot going on. I think nobody disputes the beauty and, you know, the wonderfulness of the Gulf. - But what` what specific things are you gonna do? What calls have you made? - Well, I think` - Have you talked Eugenie Sage? Have you talked to Stuart Nash, perhaps, about lowering the fishery quotas? What action will be taken? - So remember, I'm an employment lawyer at the present time, and only a candidate. But I have had conversations about the Gulf. And I went to the` the forum that went on last year, you know, where they are really working on some things like getting` making sure that there are no predators on the islands. You know` - That's all underway already, though. - Um, actually, it's still needs a lot of commitment to it. - OK, well, let's move on to another crucial issue for Auckland. Let's talk housing. What's the median house price in Auckland right now? - Hmm. I don't` I think it's about $800,000? - No. much higher than that. $911,000. Over $911,000. - OK. - That's the third record high. What are you gonna do to make housing more affordable? - Well, I think you need to build housing that is at the affordable bracket. But we need to make sure that there is a real a really good connection, if you rent, with security. There are things that I'd like to see done that are quite small in that area, just to make people's lives better. - Give me a very specific example of a small thing. - Pets! I would really like to bring pets into the community again, because people who rent can't have pets. - Shouldn't the urgency be on getting people into affordable housing over pets, though? Shouldn't that be the first focus? - It is. It absolutely is. You asked me for one little thing. And at the moment there are things like the Grays Ave build, which is really interesting because it's not just one community. It's a mixed community that's being built. And I really like that. - There's some very deeply personal votes coming up in the upcoming referenda. Could you just quickly tell me your stance on cannabis? - Yes, I'm going to vote for the legalisation. My reason for doing that is that in my area of law, I see a real difference between the treatment of alcohol and marijuana. And it's very much a working class drug. And I don't like that they're being treated differently. - Euthanasia? - I respect people on both sides of the fence on this. I think it's an incredibly personal issue and it's really difficult. I'm actually going to vote against it. - Tell me why. - Because again, probably my work has taught me how serious power imbalances are. I think we forget how people coerce themselves, et cetera, and it's just that unease that I've got, but it doesn't mean that I don't respect everybody making a different vote on this. Some of my family members will be voting differently on this one. - Helen White there. I'm joined now by our political panel, political commentators Marg Joiner and Shane Te Pou. First this morning, the sad news of the passing of Dr. Joe Williams. Shane, you did meet him, didn't you? - Yeah, haere atu e te rangatira. Haere atu. Yeah, he worked with one of my whanau members. You know, this is a guy who devoted his whole life to serving on the people, particularly around eczema. Sad to see him go. And can I also say this, Simon? Anybody who is advocating the Swedish model needs to understand that that will lead to more prevalence of deaths in Maori and Pacific Island people. And this is the message, the positive message we need to take out of Joe Williams' death. - Yeah. OK, so two deaths now from the second wave, Marg. I mean, we've got Peeni Henare saying on the show saying, 'We are out there, we're talking to them.' But has the COVID response from the government towards Maori been sufficient, do you think? I mean, or it too early to rate it? - Yeah, I mean, in a way, probably too early to rate it. But, and as the Minister said, there's a lot going on the ground and within his constituents that perhaps we don't see in mainstream media. So I probably can't comment on what's been going on. But the report that comes out that makes Maori more vulnerable, that is just a reiteration of the stats that are already there for Maori, and COVID is just one example of how those are playing out. - Well, that's right. I mean, the minister did make the point that this makes it more acute, Shane. But does it entrench as well? - It does entrench. And it tells me as a Maori, as a user of Maori services, that the status quo ain't working and we need a new dynamic. And someone like Peeni Henare, who came across as articulate, as intelligent, needs to be given more responsibility. And all due respect, Peeni, you need to lift your game. - Well, that's a good question. We did ask him about visibility. Do you think it would make a difference to Maori if Peeni Henare was at the 1pm briefing every now and then? - I think it would. I think it would. The other thing is that, and remember, in terms of the first tranche of COVID cases, we didn't have a Maori voice, we now have Maori on their committees. That's really important. You've gotta message to the people that will affect more. But beyond` It's beyond Peeni, you know? They've got talent. They've got Willie Jackson; they've got Kiri Allen; they've got Peeni. These people ought to be at the cabinet table making real decisions in real time. - Do you feel`? Oh, sorry. - Is this the largest Maori caucus, with 13 MPs, that Labour's had? - Yeah, it is. - Right. And so you would expect them to have a more visible, significant input, or visible input? - I just think the expectations are probably quite high based on that, based on, as Shane says and lists off, there are a number of MPs in there. And so the expectation that some of these things might start turning around in their time would be quite high. And this is one of those areas of perhaps not delivering to their promises this term. And I think in a normal campaign, we might see it get a bit more traction. But, of course, with COVID, it does sort of cover this. - But this does` this does put the spotlight on delivery, then. - Yes, it does. - I mean, if we're going to` This puts the spotlight on Health, on delivery for Maori. And so should we be debating that this election? - We should be. We` I think that the intention is good. You know, and we've seen some structural stuff that will help, like, you know, increasing the minimum wage; more funding to Whanau Ora. But it hasn't shifted the poverty dial. Poverty ostensibly, in New Zealand, particularly around Tamaki Makaurau, the biggest shift in dial is housing and heating homes and poor housing. And the there hasn't been nearly enough traction. I think Labour will survive and they will win the seven seats this time around. But long-term, the next six years, if they don't deliver, there will be a grassroots movement that will come forward and take and take that challenge up. - So it's a question of delivery again, isn't it, Marg? - Yeah, it's a question of delivery. And what's happening now is one thing, but also if we look out to after, perhaps, we come out of this immediate crisis, if we look at the 1918 influenza pandemic, we had a major reorganisation and ended up with the Health Act 1920. So perhaps we'll see something. Perhaps we'll see a bit of going hard and fast on these Maori health issues. And as Shane says, beyond that, the housing, I mean, the Maori health statistics are just an example of the inequalities that exist in New Zealand in all of these other areas. So perhaps we'll see that could be a good catalyst. There may be a good legacy, perhaps. - The reality is, Simon, the sad reality is we're getting poorer. And the stats, the health stats are going south. They're not improving. That's not good for` for me as a Maori New Zealander, and it's not good for Aotearoa. - OK, someone who says that they've been trying to address inequality is the Green Party, James Shaw, and they've been campaigning on that. But this week we've had a` in the last week or so, we've had a very big backlash to his decision to insist on funding the Green School. Why such a big backlash, do you think that? - Well, I think, first off, that backlash is probably not nationwide; it's more beltway. But it's also internal. So, Shane and I were speaking about this earlier. The biggest critics of this will be the Green Party faithful, and the Green Party has built from the ground up versus, say, someone like ACT or New Zealand First, which has built from the top down around the leader. So it's a tricky situation when something like this happens. And I don't think it'll last. It'll weaken him, perhaps, for now, but it won't destroy him. The interesting thing will be whether it complicates things should they get back in, should they want to negotiate a role in government again. And then this may make that a little bit harder when it comes to that. - OK, Shane, do you agree that it's probably not going to damage their election chances? - Oh, no, I disagree. I think if an election was held today, they wouldn't get 5%. They've got a lot of work to do. The problem with this is three things ` hypocrisy, you know? Giving infrastructure to a school where kids pay 43,000 bucks to go to. At the same time, their government closed down brown charter schools throughout the country that were trying to look at an alternative system. So it's hypocrisy. It's a perfect storm that perhaps Greens can't manage their money, and perhaps they're a little bit cuckoo. Or kooky, I should say, sorry. Kooky, I should say. I apologise. - (LAUGHS) Yep. - But all of that, it's a perfect storm. And also there's a huge scrap, and it's been happening in the Green Party for a long time. This story got legs cos the Greens gave it legs. - Right. - And sure, if it happened today, the election, it may damage them. But there's six weeks to go, I guess, is my thinking. - They've got time. - Well, they've got time, and other things will crop up in that six weeks, no doubt. - That's if Winston Peters lets it go away, because he, Marg, has actually jumped in boots and all of this, hasn't he? - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think any airtime is good, and he understands that better than most, for a minor party when you're starved of oxygen, even more so with the COVID situation, where the Prime Minister has the limelight every day. And so I think, yeah, I mean, I think he's just taking an opportunity as we'd expect. - Yeah, I mean, we shouldn't be surprised that Winston Peters is taking every opportunity. I mean, he's also talking` I mean, he's trying to raise his profile and distance himself from the government saying, you know, 'I would have brought the army in earlier,' hasn't he? - Well, you know, no one campaigns across the motu, across the country, in small town halls, slowly but surely making up those percentage votes like WP. We're gonna see more of this. His bus tour recommenced last week. - Well, he was in Greymouth last night. Now he's in Christchurch. - 200, 300 people, small town hall meetings. People come to watch him, and I think that will turn into votes. It's gonna be tough for New Zealand First to get over 5%. But many people have written him and New Zealand First off. I'm not prepared to. - What are you saying to that, Marg? - Yeah, I think the toughest part for me, and something we haven't seen in the past, is those votes bleeding from the centre and going straight to the ACT Party. David Seymour and the ACT Party are the biggest beneficiary of a light National and some uncertainty around the future in New Zealand First. So for me, that's something we haven't seen in the previous election. It's not something you'll find in the courts. It's not something that you can kind of dismiss. It is just pure, good competition for that centre ground. - So this really is, I mean` The minor parties, this is really about than just scrapping it out right on the fringes. Those three you mentioned ` New Zealand First, Greens, and ACT. - We could have a situation where two of the three don't make it back. - Yeah. It would be extraordinary, wouldn't it? - Yeah. - It's very possible. But also articulating very clearly that they can make a difference and they can hold the bigger parties to account. And that's the` and that's the message that they have to give. - OK. Shane Te Pou, Marg Joiner, thank you very much for your time. Coming up, a preview of next week's news. And Vision New Zealand's Hannah Tamaki campaigning hard in Rotorua. Welcome back. Hannah Tamaki is used to the spotlight and sharing it with her big-energy bishop husband, Brian. But now she's leader of her own political party, Vision New Zealand. Corazon Miller joined her on the campaign trail in Rotorua to find out what drives her. - Vote Vision! - CROWD: Vote Vision! - She needs no introduction. Love her or hate her, Hannah Tamaki is making her bid for Parliament. - This party is a party for all people, people who believe in family values. Hope in your vote. God bless you. I am pro-life. When my dad was diagnosed with bowel cancer, you know, I really prayed, and I wanted him to live and not me because I loved him so much. And then it got to the point where all of us said, 'Dad, don't stay here for us.' Who are we to take life in our hands and finish it? - As the face of Vision New Zealand, she's new to party politics, but not to the limelight, as it has shone on Destiny and the Tamaki brand. - For 22 years, we're used to a whole lot of ugly stuff said about us, but, yes, week after week after week, here we are, doing the mahi, supporting the people. - Among the headlines, profiteering, late tax returns leading to accusations of tax evasion, and complaints around Destiny's men's programme Man Up. - When those things are said, I think the reality is that sometimes the people that got a bit of a hopi on and stuff. - Distancing herself from the Tamaki brand can be tough. - Now, here, I want to introduce you to Hannah. - She could have joined an established party. - They were afraid of the Tamaki factor, so I don't think anyone would have just accepted me. So we had to launch out into the deep and start rowing our own waka. - But it has not been smooth sailing, with staffers like now-sacked campaign manager Jevan Goulter who, in an abusive Facebook post, told The Project host Kanoa Lloyd to show New Zealand what voluntary euthanasia looks like. He later apologised, though the damage was done. Breaking ground as a new party is tough. And while Destiny Church has given Hannah Tomoki a solid launching pad, it might not be so solid financially. The church's latest annual audit shows it is on shaky financial footing. Despite donations in excess of $1 million a year, it is in debt, its future in doubt. However, the paper trail suggests the church is not propping up the party. Vision. New Zealand declared in its annual returns submitted to the Electoral Commission that it received no donations in excess of $1500 in its first year. - We have learnt to run Destiny Church on the smell of an oily rag. We are running Vision New Zealand on the smell of an oily rag. - The party has been allocated more than $50,000 as part of the Electoral Commission's broadcast allocation, the same as other comparable parties. - Close the borders now. - ...for at least two years. That's one of Vision New Zealand's key policies around immigration. - We don't have enough jobs for our own people. We don't have enough homes for our own people. - She warns multiculturalism could lead to the extinction of Kiwi culture. - We have quirky things and New Zealand, and it's sad to see that those things are eroded. - You talked about not wanting more mosques to be built within New Zealand. What were you trying to say? - Well, what I'm saying is, don't you think the most important things for all communities to build is homes? - Do you not get how that, kind of, can be misconstrued? It does` - Well, maybe it can be and maybe it can't be. But that is what I said. - Whatever the issue, immigration or diversity, Hannah Tamaki is not backing down. There has been a lot of animosity between the Tamaki brand and the Rainbow Community. What kind of work have you guys been doing to bridge some of that gap? - What makes you think I should have to do any work to prove to anybody that I... don't care and love for that community? - With Vision New Zealand polling at an average 0% this year, Hannah Tamaki's best chance of getting into parliament is by winning a seat in the Maori electorate of Waiariki. But can she beat current Labour MP Tamati Coffey? - She really will struggle to even get above single figures in terms of her vote. - Her appeal may not be universal, but it is there for those who feel their calls for change have gone unheard. - They use the radical language to try and, yeah, appeal to those working class or underclass elements that feel that much of the left have become too liberal. - With no crystal ball, only time will tell just how widespread the taste for her brand of politics is. - The wairua of Christ has given me the strength, the conviction and the determination to work for the good of our people. - Corazon Miller reporting there. Stay with us. We're back after the break. - Welcome back, and we are back with our panel, Shane Te Pou and Marg Joiner. Thanks for your time again. 10 more days at Level 2.5 in Auckland, and Level 2 for the rest of the country. Shane, how is that gonna affect campaigning? - I think frustrating. You know, also very costly. I know parties that have had to pull back leaflets, and reuse your new leaflets. And tough` And you know, the other thing is that, what happens if there's a close contact of, say, PM, Leader of the Opposition, all unknown. I think what has given the, particularly National, the opportunity to regather, regroup, and a person of real political substance to shine through, and that's Dr Shane Reti. - Right, OK. Do you think, Marg, we'll get to that in a moment, but do you think if we have someone who gets a close contact, like the PM or Judith or Winston Peters, they're gonna have to isolate for 14 days? I mean, what would that do to the campaign? How would that be fair? - Yeah, I think- I mean, they would, right? That's the rules. And politicians aren't above them, and I think like everyone else in New Zealand, they have to stop and think about how they do their job, and you know, it might be a little bit of contactless message delivery going on. Everyone's doing a little dance with the courier person when they turn up. It's the interesting thing about what door-knocking's gonna be, and whether people will be receptive to that or not. And I think social media then becomes quite important. We were just talking in the green room about, even New Zealand First has got some very good social media game. Their videos are really high quality. - And is that the Bad Boys of Brexit behind that? - I'm not sure. I'm not close enough to know. But, yeah, I'm not sure how many people are watching it. I've been told that people have been told don't do any door-knocking. They've got a different attitude outside of Auckland than they have in Auckland. And, virtually, there's been very little on-the-ground campaigning going on. - And what about social distancing? I mean, it's hard to, you know, be out on the campaign trail, even if you are allowed to in Level 2 for the rest of the country, and be socially distant, isn't it? I mean, we saw Judith having her finger sucked by a baby. I know, what do you think of` Are we gonna see that, or are they gonna just flow that out the window? - You know, again, like, politicians aren't above the rules, and so they need to stop and think about this. And even I've had things in my work when I've gone ahead with something I normally would, and then kind of stopped and thought, 'Well, maybe that's not appropriate any more.' So it is, everyone's having to pivot and be agile, even the politicians. - Can I also say this, Simon, that` seats and numbers are actually won on mechanics, campaigning mechanics. So what you do is you identify your vote, your vote and your supporters, and you get them out to vote. Very hard to do that in 2.5. It will have a huge effect on seats like Auckland Central, which we've spoken about on this show. - Are you saying that voters aren't going to be engaged? - Well, what happens is elections are won as a result of mechanics. You knock on 10,000 doors, you identify the Labour votes. On election day, you get scrutineers and you get your people out to vote. That's gonna be very tough to do in 2.5. - OK. Policy. I mean, National is bringing its policy out. I mean, we had the thousand-day policy from National for child policy. Is that an appeal to the centre vote? - Yeah, I think so. But I don't know if it's resonating, though. And alongside the policy announcements, there's all these distractions that have seemed to be characterizing Judith Collins leadership, like her husband's tweets, for example. So at the moment, I don't think it's resonating. And I don't think they're looking like a credible alternative. - Right. What do you think about Judith Husband's column` Judith Collins' husband putting out these memes about Jacinda, or reposting them? - Yeah. It was sexist. It wasn't appropriate. Political spouses have a choice ` you can be apolitical or you can be political. He's chosen to be political. He's now in the mud, it was his decision. If you play in the mud, you're gonna get dirty. - But do you think that her response could have been better? Or was it`? - Yeah. - For her to say, 'He's a big boy, he makes his own decisions.' - No. If I do something like that, my wife would have said, 'Shane, stop being stupid. Don't do it again.' And she should have said the same. She should have taken the high ground. The story has now got legs. But as I said, he's chosen to be politicised. He's chosen to play in the mud, and he'll get dirty as a result of it. - Does that affect the chances of the politician? I mean, if we saw Clarke Gayford, or, you know, who else? I don't know. Clarke Gayford is the obvious example, posting negative things about Judith Collins, would that be a story as well, and would that resonate? Would that make Jacinda Ardern less popular? - Look, of course we live in a world of sort of personified politics. It's all about the person and the leader, and your family is always gonna be a part of you. That's why you probably sit down with your family before you take on a role as a politician, and talk to them very carefully about that, because it does have an effect on the wider family. They are a part of you and your public persona, and you can't escape that. - You can say, 'Oh, it's just a post, or it's just a retweet.' You can play it down, but in a socially-distanced 2.5 or Level 2 scenario, they take on a whole lot more importance. - I think the very important woman vote will look at it in a very different prism than, say, uh, guys would. And I think that, you know, she's` Jacinda Ardern is already very strong amongst the woman vote, and particularly the youth vote, and I think it will just help consolidate it. And what that meme did is it simply drove more votes her way. - OK. All right. We'll leave it there for the moment. Shane Te Pou, thank you very much for your time. Marg Joiner, thank you for your time. All right. With so much going on, let's take a look at what's coming up next week in politics. The 52nd New Zealand Parliament is just about to be officially dissolved at 11am today, launching the official process for holding a general election. And that means they're back from Monday. We'll see the first full week of official campaigning since the earlier false start and election date change. That same day in Hawkes Bay, National Party leader Judith Collins will announce the National Party's drug policy. And looking forward to Monday the 14th of September, New Zealand's COVID-19 alert levels will be reviewed again by Cabinet. We'll see all the campaigning in Alert Level 2 and 2.5, but from us, that's all for now. Thank you so much for watching. Tune in next week for our Health debate. It's Hipkins versus Reti. Ka tike` Ka kite. Captions by Jake Ebdale, Michaela Cornelius and John Gibbs. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz