Captions by Joshua Tait and John Gibbs. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 - Tena tatou katoa, and welcome to Newshub Nation's Power Brokers debate, the debate for the potential queenmakers for this election. With me, New Zealand First leader Winston Peters, Maori Party co-leader John Tamihere, ACT Leader David Seymour and Maori` sorry, Green co-leader Marama Davidson. Apologies, Marama. - We'll get that right. (LAUGHS) - Yeah, we'll get that right. Let's get straight into it. We're talking about polling and performance. Marama Davidson, you could be the queenmaker, based on the latest polling. So I want to know your price for giving Jacinda Ardern a second term. What's your bottom line? What do you want? - As we've repeatedly said, we don't have bottom lines, but we have top priorities, and they are focussed on handing our grandchildren a stable climate, protecting our environment and making sure everyone has enough to live with dignity. - So, that's all aspirational, but what's the bottom line? - Again, like we've repeatedly said, that goes back to our members. That is up to what amount of party votes we get on election night. - OK. Would you like to be the deputy prime minister? - Again, that is something that we will not negotiate through the media, Simon... - How about James? -... and we've said that repeatedly. That is a decision for our members, and that will go back to them for the decision. - All right. Well, Winston Peters, you were in Marama Davidson's shoes last time. But your strategy this time, do you think you've been too negative this election and this in this term? - Not at all. Look, we combined with Labour to pass 190 pieces of legislation . That's serious cooperation. But we're in a campaign now. Surely you understand that we're all campaigning as separate parties, otherwise we'd be a one party state. - (CHUCKLES) Are you still using the Bad Boys of Brexit? - No, of course not. - You're not. Did you sack them? - Well, I didn't really have them on in the first place - Well, they said they were working for you. - Oh, look, I mean, I didn't want to come on here and talk about what you suspect or I don't know. I mean, this should be ` close into the campaign, at the worst time in this country's economic history. We better get serious tonight. - OK. No smaller party that's been involved in government has made it back. Do you think you can buck that trend? - Well, it's false for a start. The Maori Party made it back in a past life with National. I made it back in 1999. Any more facts you want you want? - David Seymour, you could be a powerbroker, couldn't you? But you don't want to work with Labour. Is there anything that Labour can do to entice you? - It seems pretty difficult, doesn't it? I mean, you look at what they did with charter schools, you know, they say they put children at the centre of everything and then they close them down and reopen them the next day with two changes. One, no performance requirements. And, two, they had to use union contracts. I mean, people that do things like that is very difficult to work with. - All right. So you can't woo them` There's nothing, even, say, the job that Judith Collins says that you'd be pretty good at? - No, because that shows their priorities. You know, poor brown kids who never get a chance were getting a chance at charter schools, and the Labour Party closed them down and decimated them in order to pay off their union mates. And I just can't work with people that do that. - All right. So you can't work with them. I guess that rules out the deputy prime ministership for you. - Look, I've never been too interested in the job, I'm more interested in the policies, and it's not so much about where we are sitting on the bus, it's where the bus is going, and a party vote for ACT is about how do we get Taiwan-smart about COVID? How do we have an honest conversation about the debt, because the spending out of control? Those are those are the sorts of things that we're interested in ` the issues rather than the baubles. - OK, John Tamihere, your co-leader has told us that you're happy to be on the crossbenches, but don't you owe Maori a seat at the table like they had last time? - All parties want a seat at the table that are here. The question is what price do you pay for that? - Right. - So` - So you're unwilling to pay a price for it? - Well, no, no. We're building an enduring Maori political movement that bows to no Pakeha control mechanism ` and Labour, National, wherever it might be. And so this election is about resetting our compass as a people going forward, and determining a whole range of policies that are intergenerational. - Can I ask you then, are you serious about getting back into power, because you are seventh on the list? - Mm. Well, that is a Tikanga Maori issue. OK? So, my co-leader leads out at number one as a co-leader. I look after my` the mana of my people between me. So, there's only seven Maori seats. There's two elections going on in this election. One for mainstream seats, and then there's the Maori electorate. The Maori electorate, both in first past the post and in MMP, have determined who has held the Treasury benches. - Winston Peters, you've had quite a week. The SFO released its findings on the New Zealand First Foundation, and you say that you've been exonerated. So I can't understand why you're still crying foul about it. - Well, I had to go to court to get them to tell us that we had been exonerated. so everybody was implicated at that point in time. And anybody with any sense of natural justice knows that's not right. And more importantly, Jami-Lee Ross and the people who are being charged from the National Party never had their names given until they were in the court. Now, there's a massive difference, and I just want there to be` - Well, these people's names have been suppressed. They're not given; they haven't been given. - No, no, no. But you're saying that they should have. That's the inference of your question. - No, I'm saying` - I'm asking for` All I'm asking for is the same law for my party as every other party. - I just wonder whether you're preparing this as an excuse in case you don't get back into power, given the current polling. - Well, see you, now you're back on the polls. Now, look, sure, we're the underdog. And how many times in our career have we been the underdog? Time after time after time. Because you've made us that, just like now. But out there, there are thousands` hundreds of thousands of forgotten New Zealanders just waiting to tell you who runs the country. They're the kings, they're the queens, and they'll make the change on Election Day. - Sure. I mean, I know you don't like talking about polls, but one last point on that ` the last time, in 2008, you were polling 3%, you returned 4% and you were out. This time, it's 1-2%... - And guess what? -...it might pick up a little bit, but, you know, should history repeat itself? - I'm glad you said that. - New Zealand history's compulsory. - I'm so pleased you're here tonight, because you've raised the stigma of 2008. Remember what the allegation was back then? Laid by the ACT Party against me with Serious Fraud Office. I was utterly exonerated, but it was too late, just like Hillary Clinton and the Comey allegations against her. So all I'm asking my New Zealand people to do is to look at what's fair and right here and not have one law applied to one party. There are four investigations going on at the moment with the SFO. - Yeah, but yours was one of the earlier ones and so it's just the time that it's come through. - Sorry, no, no, the mayoralty in Auckland and Wellington and Christchurch were earlier. John knows that. He's a lawyer and so am I. The second thing is the Labour Party's case goes back to 2017, so please don't tell me, for the first time ever, the SFO puts a timeline on investigation, which they have never done before, and it's against their policy. But I'm not here to waste my time with them. - All right. Well, let's` - I agree with what he just said. The timeline is very clear ` a whole range of donations. And I don't want to get specific about race, but huge dollars from Chinese people went into the Labour Party coffers. This is all under investigation. - And National. - But in 2017. - (CHUCKLES) - They both not here to defend themselves obviously. - No, no. Look, I think he's been terrible on a number of things. - Oh. So` (LAUGHS) - But you've got to be fair. You know, we're Kiwis. We've got to be a bit fair. - I'm glad you guys are mates. - Simon, there is a solution for this, and if other political parties would support the Green members' bill and the Green drive to clean up political donation, to reform our donation laws, and get big money out of politics, that would also make sure that we are agreed and transparent to people where our political influence is coming from. - Have you guys got to trust? - Um, I'm not sure, because I'm` - (LAUGHS) - Do you have a trust? - Oh, I don't personally have one. No. I really don't. - Is there an ACT Party trust? - ACT doesn't. We just` - So you have a foundation? - No, we ask people for donations and we report them and record them just like the law says and just like everyone else should do. Can I just say in Marama's defence, the one thing our two parties have in common, we're the only ones in Parliament that are not being investigated by the Serious Fraud Office. - (LAUGHS HEARTILY) (AUDIENCE LAUGHS) OK. - That's a bit true; that's a bit true. - On the other hand, you look at the Electoral Commission website, how many big dollar donations have come to the Greens lately, that must be embarrassing. - Well, we'll be transparent and honest and open about them. That's all that we asked. - And at least you declare them. Good on you. - All right. Well, David's here, we can ask you, I mean, you might have a few mates in parliament this time around. Are you confident that you can run a caucus? I don't think you were probably expected to have so many possible MPs. - Well, it's not other people's expectations that matter, but, you know, not to be braggartly, but the parliamentary service... - Go on. (CHUCKLES) -...they actually asked me to write some advice for incoming MPs on managing their team because they thought I was one of the better employers in Parliament. So, you know, I just thought I'd get that out there. And I think if you look at ACT, actually it's not just the caucus it's the board, it's the membership. I've been leading an organisation for quite some time. - Lovely. - He's a recipient of the house burning down. That's the National house, right? And so, Judith's job is to save the furniture, right? What she doesn't understand is Dave is out the back taking a lot of it out. (SHEPHERD, AUDIENCE LAUGHS LOUDLY) So that's the truth of it. That's the truth of it. - JT, if all that's true, why is no one voting for you? - OK! OK! Oh, hang on, here's Winston. - When it's all over and they've lost, then they'll be all sharing the furniture in the backbench and doing nothing at all for the country. Every promise they will have made between the National Party and ACT will be forlorn and wasted because they're not going to make it. - OK, let's talk some policy then. OK, let's talk COVID, the pressing issue. John Tamihere, do you want to wait for a vaccine before the borders reopen? - No, I think we've done an extraordinary job as a nation, and I think now we've geared up all our systemics, OK? - Right. So you're happy now? - No, no. Well, I'm not happy,... - Cos previously you were saying` -...I'm not happy. What I want us to do is target those populations that are vulnerable. OK, our elders ` doesn't matter what colour, race or breed. Secondly, I want us to target Maori and Pacific Island people whose respiratory issues are legendary. - Right. - And thirdly, those with pre- morbidities or problems. If you continue waiting for a vaccine heading down the track, we've got a few problems. So what we want to do is concentrate all our resources not on lockdowns and clean off the economy, but rather on actually a better management system. And we've got a great health system. I think our people also` the discipline of New Zealanders has been extraordinary, right? - Marama Davidson, the Greens, I would say, have been somewhat quieter on COVID. So, why is that? Is that because you're just toeing the Labour Party line? - It was really important to support a public health first approach. That was the best thing for our whanau in our communities and our businesses. So that was really clear. But we do have a responsibility through our COVID response to make sure, with all this money that we're pouring into communities, that it's going to set us up for good green infrastructure, for climate resilience, environmental protection, and everyone having enough. - We'll talk about COVID economies soon, but it's the policy at the border, right, that is trying to keep COVID out, and I haven't seen any Green Party policy on it. - Well, again, we've been supporting a public health first approach. What I hear, going back to the question about vaccines, what I hear is that even if and when we get a vaccine, it may not be the sort of solve-all that people are hoping. So, again, we'd need to make sure our contact tracing systems are in place,... - Sure. - ...that our health system is as enough to cope as well. - All right. Keeping people in isolation is not your favourite thing, is it, unless they're in an Airbnb, David Seymour. - (LAUGHS MIRTHLESSLY) - That seems to be your policy, isn't it? (PANELLISTS LAUGH) So when returnees come in, you're happy for them to be in an Airbnb, is that correct? - Well, I think you're being a bit mischievous. - Never (!) - I've used one example of one of the things that Taiwan has done, but our wider point is that only one country actually gets this thing. They had 12 times fewer deaths per head of population than we did with no lockdowns. And they did that by having really smart rules of the game, by having an epidemic command centre that's multidisciplinary and public and private sector, by using better technology and weighting their approach to risk and always striving to be better and be better prepared, and so those are the sorts of principles that we've brought to the table. - So, do it like Taiwan? OK. - I think we could do a lot worse than being more like Taiwan. - Well, just finally, Winston Peters, you've mentioned that you wanted to bring the military in earlier, and you've come out and said that quite a while afterwards. But hasn't the government now proven that its role has been effective? It's defeated two waves of COVID. - Oh, look, this country has done tremendously well, particularly given this country and what we thought we weren't, and we proved that we were ` capable of co-operating. But the cohesion and the cooperation is a very, very delicate thing. If people don't go on believing we're doing the right thing, it could so easily collapse, and this would be a disaster. Look, Taiwan, in this sense, is under 500 cases and seven deaths. But they did have a serious implementation of the most strict rules. They got an app, which we should have had, and we've been offered one and we didn't take it up. An app that seriously works. The Morgan app, when it's backed up by a guy called Taylor, that serious genius when it comes to that sort of technology, really needed to be looked at far more seriously. - OK. - So we should have had the military from word go. And also, we had to be at our maritime and aviation centres right on alert all the time. You say` Your original question was, 'Well, what if you don't get a vaccine?' Well, the fact is we're praying for a vaccine every darn day. - Yeah. - But we may not, like AIDS, for example... - So we have to be` - ...after four decades get one. But what we've got to do is` No, look, this is important. You've gotta tighten up our system real tight. We can have bubbles between other countries, but the protocols have got to be capable of being enforced. - OK. All right. Just before we go, one quick-fire question really quickly to you all. If you could poach an MP from another party here tonight, who would you like to have in your own caucus? Marama? - Nanaia Mahuta. - David Seymour? - You mean poach as in, like, poached egg... - (LAUGHS) - or get them on to your side, because the answer could be` - Well, the choice is yours, really, although somewhat dark. (CHUCKLES) - Oh, look, I'm very focussed on bringing more ACT MPs, so I haven't thought about that. - John Tamihere, anybody else? - Of the present people? - You don't have to choose these guys, but of their parties. - Well, none. - None? OK, well, Winston Peters, Anybody out there you like? - Uh, look, it might sound strange, but there are many MPs that I seriously do admire. But if you would ask about one, this guy was fired with a lie. He got his job back. I always believed that he was an honest guy. His name is David Parker. - OK, thanks very much. That's all we've got time for the first break. E whai ake nei, coming up, more from our potential power brokers. Stay with us. Hoki mai ano, and welcome back to our Newshub Nation Power Broker's special with these potential power brokers here. Let's talk about economic recovery post-COVID. New Zealand's facing it's worst recession in 100 years. So what is the plan? David, you want to cut taxes, but you also want to slash government spending Won't that make it worse for those who have been hit hard? - No, I don't think it will, because a lot of the government spending that we have is stuff that's been lacquered on election after election as each party tried to buy off a different voting group. And I just give you one example ` you know, if you're 18 in New Zealand and go to a high decile school, you're one of the luckiest humans to live since we climbed down from the trees. And the Labour government's priority is to give those people even more subsidy through fees-free tertiary, nearly half a billion a year. Can we really afford that for the next decade? - OK, but you want to cut the Best Start payment, the winter energy payment, and you want benefit levels to go back to pre COVID levels? - That's right. Back to the level that the Labour Party was happy with for the first two years. If it's so bad, why didn't they raise it in their first two budgets? Are there more people needing help now? - Well, there may be more people, but do they need more help? MARAMA: Yes, they do. - The alternative is to borrow so much money that we are not going to balance the budget for 15 years. Kids currently learning to walk will get a driver's licence before they see the New Zealand government balance the budget. Now, if everybody else has to reduce their spending, shouldn't the government live within the same means as everybody else. - Well, Marama Davidson, do you think that this is going to affect the poor, affect the vulnerable. I mean, you want to boost benefits, use your argument is totally opposite. -Yes, we do. Yeah, slashing our public services has always been terrible for our communities, for our environment, and especially for our climate. The way to revive our communities is to make sure that there is a guaranteed minimum income. The people with the lowest incomes will spend that money immediately in their neighbourhoods. And that is a really important way that we can revive our communities. We also have in our top priority plans a range of sustainable jobs that are going to take us into the future, whether that is insulating homes, solar panels and batteries, transport, agriculture, farming, energy. - You're talking about your green restoration jobs, is that enough of an economic powerhouse to get the country going again? Well, also, we've been very, very clear that those with more than enough can chip in and help us to prevent the big, massive debt that our grandchildren are going to have to bear. - Right. So you're talking about the wealth tax, right? - Wealth and income tax. It is very, very clear. It is indefensible that so many people are missing out on a decent life while there are many, many people with a whole lot` - Won't you have to go back to the drawing board on that because has Labour said, 'We don't want to do that.' - Again, the more votes and the more support that we can get. Wait just` I'm nearly finished, Simon, just calm down. (LAUGHTER) - Simon's over here, sorry. - Sorry, David, my apologies. (LAUGHTER) - The more votes` - Quite distinct on that. - Again, any party can say what they need to on the campaign trail. - We'll` - The way people get a better life is to work, save and invest. If these guys get in and raise taxes, you're going to see less of that and all of us be poor. - All right. - Not true. - Here's the problem we've got with Mr Seymour, right? Greed is good. And I understand that at one level. The problem is that people like Mr. Seymour lead the neoliberal economic revolution. - Well, in fairness, I was in kindergarten, but OK. - No, hang on. - Let John Tamihere finish. OK? So don't take the mickey out of it. - OK, well, let's hear his point. - The real issue is when you've got people like this that come from entitlement and privilege and can escape taxes. - No. I went to a went to a decile 1 school. - No, I'm talking about your advocacy. - What's your point, John? My point is, is that it is right that you take from the greedy and give to the needy. - It's right to take. - That it is right that we recalibrate this country's moral compass in regard to the way in which we treat the poor in this country. - OK, OK, OK. - No, no. His policies, you know how he's gonna manage us? Build more prisons. How daft is that? - I don't know if that's his policy. - That's completely untrue. - Yes, Winston Peters, would you like to jump in on this? - Will you tell these two guys this is not the American Elections? (LAUGHTER) - The second thing is you can't have welfare without wealth. But the problem we've had a long before COVID arrived was the gap between the rich and the poor was growing larger and larger for the last 35 years of a massively failed neoliberal experiment. First of all, Rogernomics. And then Ruthernomics. And I know a bit about this and I can realise just what went wrong. The point is we can only get ourselves employment if we've got business successful. And if you wanna talk about proper taxation policies, It is to help employers to get back to export, to alternatively have products that we would not be importing because we make them ourselves, growing them ourselves. Right. - We could do a lot` One last thing. We are way off the mark of being where we were once. we were number three in the world in our lifetime. And now we're number` now we're in the middle or the bottom of the OECD on most stats. And all this all this talk you hear, 'You know, we'll do this and this and this.' Look, if you borrow and hope, we're going to go bust. If you want to starve your people to wealth. I've seen that before and it doesn't work. - Well, let's talk about how we generate some economic activity here. John Tamihere, I mean, I seen your policies that you want to want wipe beneficiary debt and double benefits, raise the minimum wage to $25. But Labour said that those policies are going to bankrupt us. How are you going to` Have you costed those? Yeah, well, everything that we've costed is within present budget lines. So` - Name one thing that my party has actually addressed that's not within a present budget line transference` With its COVID recovery, $20B, or with it's within existing budget. - Can I make the point, then, that if you are talking about current budgets, you're talking about you want 25% whanau-first and most of 25% of all the jobs or the resources. That's just shifting. It's not creating. - No, no, it's not. You see, here's your problem, right? We've got 40,000 Maori between the ages of ` I'll give you an example ` 14 to 20. Not in employment, not in education, not in training. If you do not get them active as a progressive citizen, they've got nowhere else to go but organised crime. You then have to pay, and here's the number, two years of corrections, two years of corrections though is more than all the money paid out in all treaty settlements. Now, who's dumb here now? Who's crazy here? We cannot look luck our way up out of this. We have to make our people positive, progressive citizens. And we're going to we have to stop being embedded in welfare. - OK, sure. So what's the job creation plan? - Well, here's all the money being pumped out. Here's our problem. No, no, there's hundreds of millions of dollars being pumped out into shovel ready and all this nonsense. Right? But the reality is, is that we're locked out of the opportunity to be connected to it. And that's our problem. We're embedded in the bottom end of town, in the land of our own ancestors, and it's not acceptable. - All right. Let's talk to David Seymour. How are you proposing` Is it just the tax cuts that you're going to create jobs with? Is that it? The tax cuts are important. So we would drop the middle income tax rate between 48 grand and 70 grand from 30 down to 17.5. And we would cut GST by five points to 10 for a year, which would circulate an extra six billion in the private economy. So that's the start. But it's also our regulatory environment. You know, too many people just say no to developing their own property because it takes longer to get consent under the RMA than to actually build it. We've got to change that. It's too hard to get foreign investment. We say if an investment comes from a friendly, democratic OECD country, then we should reduce the restrictions, because we actually need capital. - On the on the flip side of this, in terms of what you're proposing about beneficiary levels and the like, you're proposing that if somebody has a baby when they're on a benefit, you want to control their spending with an electronic card. - That's right. - You're taking away choice, there. And you're the party of freedom of choice. - Well, if it's choice to spend other people's money, then you've actually gotta have some restrictions. - Is that appropriate these days? - Here's the thing. There should always be a benefit. You know, Nicole McKee, our number three candidate, her first husband died excuse me, her first husband died while she was a month away from having her first child. She went on the DPB, it was there for her and it always should. But the fact that one in ten New Zealand children are born onto a benefit is unacceptable, and its unacceptable to those kids as well. - If a dad absent dad is on a benefit will apply to them, will you? Will you control their spending as well? - Absolutely. Absolutely it should. The first thing is we need to understand that people are doing their best with what they have. But we have kept benefits so low and working wages for the lowest income earners so low that this has created an entrenched generational poverty. When we support people who are doing the best, that actually is give people more choice. When we support people to hold more income support while they choose to go into part time employment, that is how we support people to make their own decisions. - OK, Winston Peters, quickly. - Can we have a short answer from some of these people? - Oh, yeah. (LAUGHTER) - You're certainly one to talk, Winston. - I'm glad you asked that, because I've got. - Now you're saying quickly, can I just say this here. Look, Lee Kuan Yew in Singapore has proved that you can have high wages if you've got very successful, profitable business. So business taxes are critical here. The idea that's one or the other is so wrong. If you want to be the first world, you get high wages with great businesses. - OK, let's do a quick-fire, because you want some quick answers. First of all, I want to know, A four year term, yes or no, Winston Peters? - Yes, on these grounds. Look, let's not have a referendum, whether we all agree mid term that we are going to four years and then we'll put it to the people. - OK. JOHN: No. - No? OK. - David Seymour, 4 year term? - Yes. It's too hard good policy done. And hasn't this government shown it? - And Marama Davidson? - Yeah, open to it. It might lead to better decisions But it does need to be put back to the people as well. - Put it to the people, OK. And last quickfire, if there's is a policy from another party you agree with, what would it be? David Seymour? From these guys. - Well, the last person with end of life choice was actually Marion Street from Labour. We're happy to have taken that baton on. - David` John Tamihere. - He's my brother. That's the 'Kill the Maori Bill' he's talking about. We'll talk about it later. - Just answer the question. - But the reality is, is that there's nothing in his suite that's any good for us. But I'll tell you what, we're closer akin to the Greens, 100%. - Winston Peters. - Yes. And be honest about it, not steal it and say it's your own. - And lastly, Marama Davidson. - Did they actually give the policies? I really like what the Maori Party are saying about Maori and Pacific children, for example, to be suspended from education. I think that's a pro-active policy that needs to be put in place. - We'll leave it there for the moment. Stay with us. We'll be back after the break with more from our powerbrokers. Welcome back to Newshub Nation's Powerbrokers debate. Over the last couple of years, there's been a lot of heat cast over Oranga Tamariki taking and uplifting Maori babies. It's been a huge issue. So, Marama Davidson, the Maori Party wants a separate agency for Maori children apart from Oranga Tamariki. Do you support two systems? - What we support is funding, properly resourcing, properly empowering Kaupapa Maori based approaches, which are about making sure that every child is safe and thriving. That is something that was called for right back from Puao-te-Ata-tu, I think back in the '80s. - Do you favour Oranga Tamariki doing it, or...? Oh, there's a lot of clean up that they have to do before Maori families or any families trust them. - So, not yet. So again, we want to see more support for the kaupapa Maori community-driven organisations who know what needs to be done. - So John John Tamihere, you want $600 million to get it off the ground right now, but how can we be sure that you would do a better job immediately? - Because we're doing it right now. And that's in the Whanau Ora space. See, the problem you've got with an agency that is not connected to us, not working with us, are these some babies that require uplifting? Yes, there are. But you don't arrive with the police, and you don't cut the umbilical cord and rip the child away from mother. - Mm. That's right. - You arrive with our whanau. - We say, 'No, we're taking this baby because this baby belongs in our community.' Oranga Tamariki says it's making steps. You and I have had this conversation before, and actually they're not. And what I need to say to you is, is that what we need to do is acknowledge that we're big enough and we are now capable enough and we have capacity to look after our own people. And I don't need an agency paid $700 million a year solely for the Maori clients to feast off our failure. What we need is agencies that fix the problem rather than manage it and, Oranga Tamariki, and you know it, I know it, everyone sitting here knows it, has failed every audit and review possible. Winston Peters, do you favour a two system approach? - No, I don't. - Why not? - In the Maori world, children should be a taonga, or a treasure. And the reality is that there's far too much poverty, which we can deal to with sound policies and sound economic strategies. But in the end, in the Maori world, we know we need a renaissance. We need a reawakening. This idea that you can brutalise your children and remain silent and then blame it on the state is just not right. And there are too many Maori out there in the former world who understand precisely what I say. I've seen people who are born with poverty, know what it taste and smells and feels like. But they've never resorted to that. We've got a home responsibility in a cultural sense. - But a separate Maori agency leads to better outcomes? - You can have all the debates in the media you like. But the only answer to this problem is an inward reaching and a renaissance and a change in the Maori world. I'm telling you. - This guy's been the biggest handbrake on Maori renaissance, on Maori looking after the Maori problems, and not making it a Pakeha problem, out of all politicians. - I can answer that. - I'm here because I'm proud to be a Maori. I am I'm not ashamed to be one. And I'm proud of my people, because we have solutions. Do we have problems? Yes, we do. Give us a break. Let us fix them. - OK, so, Winston. - Let me say something. I was born into a family of 11 children. I know what I'm talking about. My family began life in a tent. So when somebody says that I've been a handbrake, now I've been a handbrake against blaming everybody else, the people that came across the Pacific to get here, were a magnificent people. They were in the Second World War the in the battalion, the Maori women's welfare league, and the wardens. Please don't tell me we're not capable of doing this as well. - David Seymour, I mean, I've heard you say that you're proud of your Maori heritage. What would you do in this situation? - I remembered sitting with Anne Tolley in Cabinet committee helping her argue to form Oranga Tamariki separate from the MSD. And I really thought that after, I think, it was seventeen previous restructures, this one would do it. - And has it? - No, it hasn't. And what that tells you is that nobody has an answer, despite the bluster and rhetoric. We do need to do better and ACT is bringing people into Parliament who know a bit about it. - OK, all right. And are highly committed to fixing it. - That's not true that nobody has an answer. That is not true. The enduring solutions are found at the frontline where these challenges are, which include Maori women who have long been saying that our traditional support structures, making sure that we are supporting that whanau focus, Kaupapa Maori support. - And you have said that, yeah. - That is where the solutions are. - I'm going to move on now to another really big issue, a big issue for everybody. It's climate change. David Seymour, you want to scrap the zero carbon, you want to end the ban on oil and gas exploration. Are you taking climate change seriously? Absolutely, because the ban on oil and gas exploration just means when we run out of current reserves, we start importing more Indonesian. Coupled with higher emissions, it's got to be the stupidest policy that this government has and that's really saying something. The next thing I'd say is that we actually need to scrap the Zero Carbon Act because it puts too much power in the hands of the Minister of Climate Change, who can decide if a sector lives or dies. We should never politicise the economy that way. What we should do is have an ETS and tie our carbon price to our top five trading partners so that New Zealand firms can do their bit but pay no more and are not disadvantaged in trading with the world. John Tamihere. - Look, I get greed is good. See, the present the present status quo cannot continue. And we've put a pou in the ground, I'm talking for the Maori Party, just to say, no, we must transition. - Transition, yeah. But what are you doing about it? What are your policies? - The Maori Party co-leader won a Court of Appeals judgement against marine mining over in the Taranaki. We are doing that. Motonui decision, 1982, they destroyed our kai moana. Hang on! They destroyed our kai moana just mining our own seafood without our consent. - Policy. - Yeah, well, policy is we want` All I can see is that you want a billion dollars of solar panels and insulation on Marae. No, no, no, no. First of all, you've got to put the pou on the ground to say, 'You guys that are destroying the environment and our economy, shift to a new economy.' And if you don't put the pou in the ground and say that, they will continue to mine it out to the end of the Earth. OK, Winston Peters, you have been part of this government, and yet you blocked the government's clean vehicle feebate scheme. What do you have against electric cars? - I'm gonna slide by that quickly. The National Party and the ACT party went to Paris in 2015, signed up to the Paris Accord, and we've been trying to fix it up ever since. Our international buyers of our product will determine this issue because if we don't comply, then we'll lose our market. The real issue is this. We can get to where we want to get to in 2020 with a climate change commission that has been put in place yet. But we've talked about EVs, for poor people the cost would have been prohibitive. That's why we say` - So you are in favour of Electric Vehicles? - Here's my point to the Greens. You had your conversation, or discussion, negotiation with the Labour party before the last election. It was for you to win then, not come along and try and change everybody else's policy after it. - Marama Davidson, this policy, this issue should define the Green Party, but has James Shaw bowed to farmers who still aren't paying for emissions aren't likely to the 2025, and even then it's going to be at a 95% discount. - So just firstly, the Greens in government have put in place the strongest action for climate change in three decades. We, because we've been in government, have stopped new offshore oil and gas exploration. And yes, we are finally bringing farming emissions into the ETS. - Right. You are. - Yes, we are. - But is it soon enough? I mean, it is like 2025, and it's like 5%. And we've said that we will review that as well, and check whether or not we've made enough progress. But we do need a just transition. We do need to make sure we are both supporting farmers to move to cleaner farming methods, as well as putting limits on nitrates, and nitrogen and synthetic fertilisers which we have also outlined in our farming plan. - OK, last, we just going to do some quick fire questions here before we go to the break. And this time it's can you tell me, starting with you, Winston Peters, what is the worst mistake you've made last term? (LAUGHTER) - This term? - Well, this term, yeah. It's still going on. - Because of cabinet rules, I can't tell you. (LAUGHTER) - Well, we love it, I have to get hold of that somehow. What about smoking outside at a non-smoking university? - Well, OK, OK, OK. (LAUGHTER) - If you want a real thing here, we got governments, Labour and National talking about smoke free 2025. Then you can have a marijuana referendum coming up very shortly. But just to make sure it's not even true, the tax forms that tobacco and cigarettes have gone past two billion and a rising, and they've got no sincerity about it. We're going to stop them ripping off poor people. It'll be 20. - 20 bucks a packet. OK, so is that the worst thing you've had to do this term? - It's my business if I want to have a fag outside, not yours. - You can have a fag outside. You have to go outside though. John Tamihere, what's the worst thing you've done in the last` I know you're not in at the moment, But what's the last thing you've done in the last term? - Oh, I forgot our wedding anniversary last week. - I can see your bruise. - I've been on the couch for a while, but... (LAUGHTER) - All right. - Yeah, there you go. - OK, David Seymour. What's the worst thing you've done this term? - Paso doble. - I think maybe we can all agree on that one. OK, Marama Davidson. What's the worst thing that you've done? - I watched Paso Doble. (LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE) If I can, coming up on this final part of our debate will be followed by followed by analysis by our political panel. - Hoki mai ano to our Power Brokers debate. This is our final section with the candidates. Let's talk housing The housing crisis dominated last election. It seems to have fallen off into the back burner this one. Winston Peters, house prices are still going up. We've got a shortage of 56,000. Is this a failure of the government that you've been part of it? - Part of it is and we've admitted it with respect to one programme, which I wasn't responsible for. You know what it is, I'm not to mention the person's name. - KiwiBuild, everybody. - But if you're talking about the Housing Corporation, they've gone dambusters on building houses. Private housing has been the highest since 1974. But here's the point. We inherited a massive demand with infinitesimal supply. And we've got to turn it around, and we haven't done it yet. - So it's a failure. OK. Because we're talking about affordable housing. We're not talking about social housing. David, you want to cut red tape, but so far, the free market has basically, ensured high prices. If you cut red tape even further are we just going to see more of that? - I beg your pardon, which free market? You've got a government that regulates to the hilt how people can develop their land, a government that has a monopoly on infrastructure, controls the funding of it, and a government that mandates that councils have to do building inspections and they do it badly. Just look at leaky buildings. There is no free market and that's the problem. What we need to do is replace the Resource Management Act with an Urban Development Act based on the Productivity Commission's better urban planning. Start funding infrastructure properly by giving councils half the GST on new builds so they have money to build it and an incentive to give consent and actually allow private consenting of new builds. Because at the moment the councils do it, they have no expertise in it. They're risk averse, and they mean that we have so little innovation and so few new materials. New Zealanders are over a barrel. It's too hard to build a new house, and people can't afford them. - So, you were just having a bit of a laugh there, John. Why is that? - Oh, because the elephant in the room is anyone owning two, three, four or five houses go to a casino in this country that they never can lose on. There's no tax on it. And so the problem we've got in pricing other Kiwis out of the market is the fact that we reward those that are already in it. - Right. - What country has ever taxed their way to housing affordability? None. - No, no, no. There's a number of packages within the Maori policy. You should read it. - So, just to finish up, John Tamihere. - So, there's a whole range of issues that we've got going on here. Firstly, it's affordability. So, how the hell is Maori` You know, the Maori average income from the 2018 census is $24,300? How the hell do we get on the property ladder? - So, how do we make the houses affordable? I mean that is the key question. Marama Davidson? - Simple. - Greens have been very clear that we need to prioritise public and community and iwi providers, make sure that we commit to government spending enough to clear the waiting lists in five years, which means that we have to prioritise public housing as well as empower community, iwi housing providers to build a non-profit rental sector. It is not defensible at all. The way that things are currently going are causing hardship for too many people, and we have to change quickly. - Just quickly, Winston Peters, you wanted to jump in on housing. - Radically reform the Resource Management legislation, which National passed in 1991. The second thing you've got to do is have a huge investigation into pricing, because it's 35% higher than Australia's. - OK. - The last thing you've gotta do is give the housing plan to a whole lot of practical people, not a bunch of bureaucrats in Wellington. - All right, well, let's move on to social housing, right? So, look, the waiting list is almost 20,000 households waiting for a state house. OK? So, Marama Davidson, this is close to your heart. You've promised 5000 new social houses. That still leaves people out on the streets. - Well, again, we will, alongside clearing the waiting lists in five years, - You're gonna clear them in five years? 5000 doesn't equal five years. - Well, alongside that, alongside building 5000 homes a year, we will again allow for community and iwi housing providers to build non-profit rental sector homes and a progressive home ownership scheme which we've already started, a rent-to-own type model, which has already started, and will keep funnelling investment` - That's not social housing. - Well, no, It all works to making sure that more people have got, affordable healthy... - OK, John Tamihere. - ...long-term housing. - I'm gonna end you there. John Tamihere, you want 50% of all state housing for Maori. - Well, we're 50% of the waiting list in the land of our ancestors. (SIMON INTERJECTS) - No, hang on, that's point one. - But what happens to the people that already` - Let's get back to supply. What happens to the tenants that are already in state housing if you want 50% of Maori for housing? - The problem we've got in social housing,... - Are you gonna answer that? - The problem we've got in social housing is simply this ` We're not, one, building enough. And two, we've got a whole bunch of people in the country right now that have been given them in preference to Maori. - So, what happens to the people that are already in a state house if you want to have` cos Maori are 37% of state house tenants, and now, OK, you're gonna have to kick people out. So if you're going to have to keep people out. - Out of the 20000 families on waiting lists, 10000 of Maori, right? In any electoral cycle, three years, one third of our people are kicked out of their tenancy. How can their babies educate themselves? How can they have a proper health service unless we sort social housing out? And Maori, I'm telling you right now, we're the tangata whenua. We've got a preference and I want 50% per cent of those houses to house 10000 of my family. - All right. Let's move on to our last topic, which is Ihumatao. So we're waiting and waiting and waiting for a deal here. Winston Peters, you said you've halted a deal three times. Why? What did you say no to? - Ihumatao has already been a part of a Treaty of Waitangi settlement. - No. - It is the Tainui settlement, and I was there when it happened. Now, please do not have the idea that you can bust open this settlement without the rest will be bust open as well. And it's just wrong` It's wrong to not tell the people the true facts behind this matter. - 1840, the treaty was signed in 1863. That land was stolen. - Stolen. - Stolen, confiscated by state` - So what's the what's the answer? Just give it back? - If someone steals something from you, if someone steals something from you, you hand it back. - So Marama Davidson, does that mean that this is going to` If you if you give it back, it's going to open up some other treaty negotiations? No. There are lots of ways, lots of solutions to make sure that there is a peaceful resolution to this. I'm really proud that we've got this young new generation of Maori leaders who are demanding true Te Tiriti justice. And that is why the Greens were very clear and asked the Prime Minister to halt the development, supporting Kaitiaki the front line and sit down at the table to come up with a peaceful resolution. - That is happening. - That is happening. - That is happening. - That hasn't happened yet. - The talks are happening. The building has stopped. - David Seymour? - Yay Ihumatao. - David Seymour, what is the answer? Look, the answer now is an extremely difficult. We need, no matter who our ancestors were, a system of rule of law and property rights. That's the only way you get prosperous and solve the problems we're talking about tonight. But right now, because the Prime Minister decided in a dispute to side with the squatters and undermine legal property rights, it's now extremely difficult to work through. It's possibly the most damaging thing in the long term that Jacinda Ardern has done. I think whoever wins this election is going to have to think very hard about how to get through it. - They're not squatters, they're mana whenua. - Can I just` - OK, OK. - They're not squatters, they're tangata whenua. - I do need to wrap this up, I'm sorry. We're going to wrap this up. So finally, from all of you, I just want a quick closing statement about why people should be voting for you. Who are you pointing to? You wanna go last, do you? (LAUGHTER) Marama Davidson. The Greens in government have done more for climate action than in three terms, while addressing inequality and protecting our environment. But we must go further and faster, including in our response to COVID-19. Labour need the Greens, so we make better decisions. Greens in government will make sure that we get stronger action for climate change, ending inequality, protecting nature, thinking of our mokopuna, party vote Green. - OK, David Seymour. - The world has just changed and our country is going to have to change. ACT's the party that stood on principle against every other party, but also worked with every other party to get legislation passed. And through this COVID period, we've offered constructive criticism when necessary. We've made helpful suggestions where possible. And that is the kind of contribution that we're going to need to get back to recovery, to get our way of life back and do it as a reunited country. A party vote for ACT is for more ACT MPs making that contribution, because the only problem with is there aren't enough of them. - (LAUGHS) John Tamihere, for your final statement. - I just want everyone to know that from here to eternity, we're not going anywhere. The Tangata Whenua. And from here to eternity, we will seek justice and righteousness and fairness about our rights to break out of the bottom end, structurally embedded in the bottom end of the land of our ancestors. And if the truth of the truth upsets others, so be it. But it's our truth and we will speak it. Winston Peters, final statement. - Look, Three years of stable government through crisis after crisis has not been easy, but we did it. But the reality is that experience and common sense is important in government. You've got to be not on training wheels. You've got to know what you going to do next, because you've got the experience. And the reality is out there, there are hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders who need some insurance in this campaign. You don't take that pathway, you get risky, you get careless, you have a massive lurch to the left after this election and all for many New Zealanders will be lost, so buy some insurance, party vote New Zealand First. And that is our final closing statement. - Thank you very much. - Winston Peters, thank you very much. That's it for our candidates section of this Powerbrokers Debate. Winston Peters, Marama Davidson, John Tamihere, David Seymour. After the break.... (APPLAUSE) How did they perform? Tune in for our political panel. - Nice work team. Hoki mai ano, welcome back. And here with their analysis of our Powerbrokers debate are journalists Lisa Owen and political commentators Shane Te Pou and Marg Joiner. Thanks for your time. So can we take a winner? Let's just get straight to it. Can we take a winner or loser from that debate, Lisa Owen. - I think John Tamahori was a standout performer there. He brought passion. He was the one who dominated the conversation, I suppose, jumped into the conversation and owned it somewhat I thought. - Marg Joiner. - Yeah, I think if winning is speaking to your electorate base, I think Marama did a really good job. I also think she did a really good job in terms of bringing it back to policy discussion. There was a bit of to-ing and fro-ing on the SFO and a few other matters, and she grounded it back to some really good policy discussion. - David Seymour, he rallied his troops. He rallied his troops. There was a gut call to an ugly side in New Zealand that exists when he called out people, when he called our people squatters. Sorry, Simon, I didn't think it was funny at all. - No, no, sorry. - When he said that poor people can't be trusted. And that they have to be given a card, and they can't be trusted to look after their kids. - David Seymour rallied his troops. - Well, that really surprised me, obviously, because sitting there was Marama Davidson, who's` one of her core beliefs is that people should be able to live with dignity, that they should be paid sufficient on welfare to be able to feed, clothe and house their families And when David Seymour said that, I thought, 'OK, she's going to jump in here.' And she didn't really. She didn't fight that corner. And that really surprised me. - Do you think of Davis was subdued in that area, Marg? - Yeah, I think I guess so. But I think they've all shored up their bases in this debate. But I guess what we don't know is how many of them have been able to attract some of the undecided, which is really, when you're Marama Davidson, on a knife edge, really, in terms of getting back in, that's really important. - And I know we've been calling them, you know, the queenmakers and the powerbrokers. But, you know, could we see the Greens not be there? - No, I think the Greens will be there. I think there are really three scenarios. The first scenario is the possibility of Labour going alone. An ACT/National coalition. - That's a possibility. Or a Green�Labour coalition. And I think those are the three machinations. I also think that perhaps even if Labour was to govern alone, that they would want to think ahead and strategically have some sort of arrangement with the with the Greens. - I sense also that there was quite a bit of chumminess amongst all three of them, which surprised me. There wasn't you know, I guess they've all been around for a while. They know each other. But were you surprised when the chumminess? Did not make enough points of difference between the three parties for people to vote? - Four, yeah, four. - Yeah, four parties. Because I'm just wondering there, were you forgetting that Winston Peters was on the stage? (LAUGHTER) Because in all seriousness, Winston Peters doesn't always participate in the minor party debates. He doesn't see himself as a minor party. OK, so he then obviously changed his mind and decided he want to be here today. I was fully expecting him to bring his A game and command the room. I didn't see that. I thought he was really quite subdued. And I found it interesting. Near the end, we saw quintessential Winston where he wanted to have the last word. So he gave the signal to you, Simon. - Yeah, yeah, he did. - You should go to the other three first, I'm having the last word. - And I obeyed. Yes, I know. But except for that one commanding gesture to you as the moderator, I felt he wasn't on form. Right. Marg Joiner, what did you think of Winston's performance? - Yeah, I think I mean, I think he always has a statesmanlike demeanour and he always will. And that's a product of how long he's been around. But Lisa and I were talking about it, almost looked like the younger Winston sitting there with David Seymour in terms of he does` he is the one bringing a lot of the new ideas. And we always like these minor party debates because, it is a really good contest of ideas. So David Seymour is the one bringing the new ideas to the table, and so... - Yeah, I'm not going to, you know` I've been to many of Winston's tangihanga when people have said it's all over for Winston, and then he comes back again, and I ain't to write them off now, now, now or in a couple of weeks time. I think I think it was quintessential Winston. He enjoyed it. He enjoyed the engagement with particularly with JT, you know, they're foes, they're old friends. And it was a sort of relaxed, relaxed Winston that we probably haven't seen enough of in terms of this campaign. - What about policy? I mean, did they did these guys reference their policies? Did they promote their policy, or did they just have a chat along and appeal to their bases? - And oh, no, I think JT, referenced his policies, and also because he is a because him and the work that the Waipareira Trust do in real terms, that not only was he able to talk about policy, but he was able to talk about how it works for him and how it works for the people that he works, he works for and on behalf of every single day. So he was able to put the policy in terms of context of how we can make it work. What about the others, Lisa Owen? - Well, I thought` I agree, John Tamihere referenced policy that you thought, 'Oh, I might like to go and hear something more about that.' When he talked about wanting an enduring Maori movement that bows to no pakeha control mechanism. I wanted to ask, 'So could you go into coalition with one of these other parties and be in Parliament, or is that a Pakeha control mechanism? I wanted to know more when he spoke passionately about, 'you can't cut the umbilical cords of our children and take them away from us.' He was referencing his policy. You heard a little bit from Marama Davidson, as Marg said, when she was talking about housing policy, what they want to achieve around social housing. David Seymour, he was the only one that seemed to have a plan B around COVID. We didn't hear much of it. This is their policy about risk assessing People who are coming into the country, not just having a one size fits all, you don't all go into isolation for 14 days. If you're coming from a low risk country, you can go into Airbnb. That's right. Yes. - And I think that's a really worrying thing for not just this country, but others, there is so much talk about the problem, and no one really has the solutions coming up in terms of how we get out of it. - Did we learn anything that we didn't know? Are you surprised by anything that came out tonight? - Well, I wasn't surprised. But this is this is my pick up from tonight, Simon ` Maori Party, the Greens and New Zealand first about equity of opportunity. They see the delivery mechanism slightly differently, and ACT, with their only possible coalition partner, are about austerity. And I think that's what I got from today. Right. OK, just to just wrapping up, was there a funny moment? Come on. - Oh, when Marama Davidson burnt David Seymour on the Pasodoble. (LAUGHTER) - That was very good. - All right, so we'll give the funniest moment to Marama Davidson. And everybody disagrees who won? Is that how we wrap the evening up? - No winner. Just you said, you know, maybe most improved players or most lively performance. - And the contest of ideas is the winner for me, on the day. - Winston's comment about, 'This is not the American situation.' It couldn't be more different from what happened. - All right, we're gonna wrap it up. That is the analysis from our panel, Marg Joiner, Lisa Owen and Shane te Pou. - Thank you so much for your time. I hope you enjoyed tonight. And that wraps up our Powerbrokers debate for this election. I hope you enjoyed it. Thank you so much for watching. Nga mihi nui. We will see you again next weekend, hei kona mai. (APPLAUSE) Captions by Joshua Tait and John Gibbs. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 This programme was made with the assistance of the New Zealand on Air Platinum Fund.