- Kei nga manu tangi ata, kei nga manu koukou po ` tau mai ra ki te rakau taumatua o te hui. Ko Mihingarangi tenei e mihi atu nei ki a koutou katoa. Welcome to The Hui, Maori current affairs for all New Zealanders. E taro ake nei ` It's the debate that's dividing te ao Maori. - As it becomes too hard for me to live, to breathe, I will seek an end of life treatment. - Euthanasia ` challenging concepts of tapu, mana and tino rangatiratanga. - If you commit euthanasia or you choose euthanasia, are you welcome to come back into the marae? - We meet a mother and daughter confronting the reality of assisted dying. - There's a lot to consider in what she's asking for. - Have you thought of when that day does come? - I have, and we've had some very real conversations about that. And she says, 'I don't want to suffer, Jean. I've suffered enough. I don't want to do that any more.' - And we discuss the preliminary results of the euthanasia and cannabis referendums. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 Karahuihui mai. The referendum to legalise euthanasia has polarised te ao Maori, with health inequities, tino rangatiratanga and the tapu nature of life itself being hotly debated amongst whanau, hapu and iwi. Preliminary results indicate the referendum will be passed into law. With 65% of voters supporting the End of Life Choice Act. The new law will only apply to people over the age of 18 with a terminal illness that's likely to end their life within 6 months. For one Parihaka kuia living with chronic illness, the results of the referendum could be, not just life-changing, but life-ending. Kei a John Boynton te roanga ake o nga korero. (SOMBRE MUSIC) - There's a delicate balance between life and death. It's an issue Maori have long grappled with. - In former times, they used to put the tupapaku outside ` so, the person who was dying ` they'd put them outside and leave them on the mahau. And it was there that they met their death. (ECHOES) If it becomes too hard for me to live, to breathe, to do whatever my body needs to do, I will seek an end of life treatment. - When you get into that voting booth, what will be going through your mind? - Well, kua e. You know, my heart will be happy. Because I wouldn't do it if i wasn't happy about making that choice. - Euthanasia advocate Maata Wharehoka lives with the crippling lung disease COPD, or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. She may look well, but her years of ill health have taken a serious toll. And this is a major reason she supports Euthanasia. - I've been a big supporter of End of Life, and I think that comes from a lot of avenues that I've met with over the years. - And she's not afraid of death either, having had a number of near-death experiences. - A near-death experience gives you a light in another world. And for me, it was about thinking about how we become so close to death and what we go through to actually get through the door to the other side. - The closest she came to death was when her doctors switched off her life support after a car crash. - And so I've seen that light at the end of the tunnel many times. There was just this moment of haze, very light haze amidst the clouds. - Her daughter Jean Hikaka still remembers saying goodbye to her that day. - And I whispered in her ear and I said, 'You've got to come back. You've just got to come back. 'We're not ready to let you go yet.' But I didn't know which way she was going. I didn't know which way she was gonna choose. - It's about how we treat our most vulnerable in our society. - Over the last three years, euthanasia has drawn heated, and heartfelt, public debate as the End of Life Choice Bill made its way through Parliament. - The Ayes are 69; the Nos are 51. The Ayes have it. - The year the bill passed its third and final reading, and will come into force since it received more than 50% of the vote in the End of Life Choice Act referendum. But some Maori feel the Act doesn't go far enough to protect their communities. Within the Maori community, there has been a lot of criticism of the Act, because of the social and health inequities that Maori do face. Do you think that criticism is fair? - I think it is a fair criticism and I did think about that myself. So, there are people like myself who have had a lot of health issues, and so that's where I come from. So, with that in mind, the choices are for them and the choice is for me. - The results of the referendum could impact iwi and the tikanga they practice. In the past some marae have refused to host suicide tangihanga. - The question to me was, well, if that's the case, then how do you manage those children who are grieving? Do you put them outside the gate as well? That was a very, very strong moment that I had to make a decision. So, if you commit and commit euthanasia, or you choose euthanasia, are you welcome to come back in to the marae? And I have to say, after all that thinking that the marae is the place where you do all the healing. - With the final results of the euthanasia referendum soon to be confirmed, Maata is seriously considering her future. She may be the one of the first people in this country who could take up the option of assisted dying. How would that feel for you to be able to do that? - I like that I've got that opportunity to say yes. I no longer want to live in this body. I'm sick of breathing the way that I do. I need a lot more oxygen than what I'm getting in my system. I can't do it anymore. I've been there. I know what it's like not to be able to breathe. I know what it's like not to be able to walk to the toilet. I know what it's like not to be able to shower myself. I know that. And I know what it's like not to manage my personal cares. - Jean knows how much her mum is suffering, but that doesn't make her decision any easier. - it's really emotional. It's gonna be emotional. I don't know, I just think that there's a lot to consider in what she's asking for. - Have you thought of when that day does come? - I have, I have. And we've had some very real conversations about that. And she says, 'I don't want to suffer, Jean. I've suffered enough. I don't want to do that any more.' And they're real conversations so that they hit you. They hit you hard. - While Jean is still coming to terms with the decision, Maata's mind is made up. Last month she joined millions of New Zealanders in voting in the End of Life Choice Act referendum where she voted yes. What will it mean for you to be able to have the power to do that? - Maybe I could have a good party before I go. You know, it's like, 'Come and join me.' To me, there's some beauty and being able to have people present with me in my last moment. - Na John Boynton tera ripoata. A ko ake nei ka matapakihia te kowhiringa taru rauhea me te kowhiringa mate whaka-ahuru. Well, Aotearoa has gone to the polls and it's an 'ae' to the right to die and a 'kao' to getting high. But while the preliminary results of the euthanasia referendum show a decisive win for the End of Life Choice Act, with 65% support, when it comes to cannabis, only 53% of New Zealanders voted against the referendum, showing Aotearoa is split down the middle over the cannabis reform. To discuss the results of both referendums, I'm joined now by AUT Associate Law Professor Khylee Quince, who said 'Ae marika!' to the cannabis referendum, community advocate and former Police inspector Hurimoana Dennis, who didn't support the cannabis referendum but does support euthanasia, and by the New Zealand Maori Council's Matt Tukaki who said 'kahore' to both. Kia ora, tena koutou. - Kia ora. - Kia ora. - Kia ora. - Khylee, such a close result, certainly not defining one. Does that let the government off, or do we need to talk more now on cannabis? - Yeah, the latter. We certainly need to talk more. So, not only do we need to wait for the almost half a million special votes, that 17% of the electorate, but amongst that special votes` amongst those special votes will be inmates who voted for the first time, will be the high number of overseas votes, of course, who tend to be left-leaning and then presumably might be more likely to vote yes. So 1.1 million people so far, and I think those special votes are going to push up, possibly not even-stevens, but pretty close. So that's some social licence for the government to at least work around the edges in terms of some of the issues raised by the discourse around the reform. - Can you just fill us in on what's the difference between legalising cannabis and decriminalising cannabis? - Sure. So, legalising means that the substance itself` means you're able to grow it, to distribute it, to smoke it. So from basically the ground to consumption will be legal in some form or another. Decriminalisation only deals with the end result for users and possessors. So, low level users and possessors, which means that everybody that uses or smokes it outside of the medicinal cannabis regime is sourcing it from an illegal source. So the black market stays in place under decriminalisation, but not under legalisation. Well, less so. - Matt Tukaki, New Zealand Maori Council, are you pleased with the outcome on cannabis? - On cannabis, I was surprised. I actually thought it would get through with without the sort of tight race that we're seeing towards the end. But, you know, in all reality, we still have big issues in the criminal justice system when it comes to low level forms of offending regardless. I mean, we've had 10 months where police have been able to use discretion. I'd love to start seeing the data about what that's actually telling us, because I'm confident that they are still arresting people of colour in mostly brown postcodes. And I don't want to be a quota for their arrest numbers. But the other one, too, is my biggest fear is that we're not having a discussion more presently about addictions. If you have a look at the presence of liquor shops and bottle shops and pokie outlets and then hundreds of pot shops, they weren't going to be in Remuera. They weren't going to be at Point Chev or in Brown's Bay. They were going to be in South Auckland. They're gonna be in Porirua. And so we still have to have a really honest conversation about what the system is doing to our people. - Now, that referendum wasn't necessarily going to abate those fears. - Mm. Some say this was the opportunity, Hurimoana, you know, to address some of the issues in the criminal justice system, you know, what are your thoughts on it? - Oh, look, absolutely. I agree with Matthew. Look, we've got alcohol, gambling and tobacco, OK? We can't even get our heads around that. It's already hitting us as the people up front. And then we want to add another mawewe to that? That's just not good for us in the first instance. Police discretion` And gangs, they haven't been dealt with properly, because they're driving this whole drug situation. Marijuana will just be a stepping stone to methamphetamine, and that's out of control as well. So that's why I said no to the legalisation. But we just need to get some basic things right first. And that really is around the police discretion, as Matthew said` - We've been waiting for the police discretion to work for, you know, generations ` for a hundred years, so, like, you know, I mean ` what happens to our young people in the justice system now that we don't have this option of decriminalising or legalising marijuana? - Well, look, I was part of that, OK? I was a part of that. You know, I can remember arresting people for small roach. That was the thing. And you went to court and you were in the system. It's the same with alcohol, drink driving. That's the big gateway to the criminal justice system as well. You know, once you are sworn in as a police officer, you have the power of arrest and you have the right to discretion. No one can tell you who you were supposed to arrest. It's quite different. - And isn't that the issue, though, here, Khylee? Is that the discretion isn't fair? - Absolutely. So, we share common ground. Cannabis causes harm. No doubt whatsoever. - That's good. - Cannabis causes harm, methamphetamine causes harm, but some of the harms come from the law itself and being dragged into that system is, as Huri's mentioned, from the point of arrest through to conviction and punishment. So that's what happens to young people. That discretion gap has not closed. And I don't think we should wait any longer. - No. - The first 10 months' data has shown that the police behaviour has not changed in respect of Maori. - Yeah, yeah. - So, you know, optimistically, I would like to see if we gave that time to embed, and I think some people voted in the hope that embedding that discretion will change. But that requires really transformational change in the culture of the police. They've been telling us they're turning this tide for a few years now, and I think they're still all at sea. I don't think any tide coming any time soon. - You're all shaking your head and you're all agreeing, but, Matt, you're like voted differently. - Probably for all different reasons too, I'd say. - Look, at the end of the day, we care greatly for our people. And I think that's where we agree in spades. And I think we would also agree that the criminal justice system itself is the big discussion in town. That referendum wasn't going to solve the institutional racism of the New Zealand Police. It's not going to solve institutional racism more generally. Wasn't it going to, you know, allow Maori a better go, a fairer system in the criminal justice system? - Well, I mean, we've been waiting for that for years. We've been waiting for that for years. - But wasn't it going to be one transformational piece of legislation that would have prevented more Maori kids, boys, getting tied up in the criminal justice system? - Honestly, until we fix the view of police and those who arrest us and their culture and their behaviour, I actually don't think it's going to make a huge difference. It wouldn't have made a huge difference. - But, you know what, Mihi, I actually think you won't get too much pushback from the police in terms of discretion. They probably agree with this. - Mm. Yeah. - They probably want to do more. But there is a culture inside the police where people do get mataku. - Mm. - If you step outside the bounds of what is normal, then all of a sudden, you know, you're pushed to the side and, 'Ill never go back and do that again'. So there's all of those cultural things to do need to be fixed. But I don't think you get much pushback from them around discretion. - You talk about the harms that, you know, in our society, really, you've got the gambling and alcohol and we're talking about cannabis here, but you mentioned meth and it's a massive issue. And we heard it in all of those debates. People at home all around Tai Rawhiti, Tai Tokerau, everywhere, have got issues with P, but could cannabis, you know, could the cannabis reform actually be more of a stepping stone, you know, rather than a gateway to meth? Like a solution? - Then you're talking about the gangs here. OK, you're talking about organised crime. You're talking about the local gangs being more of a distributor. And, of course, that's where our families are. That's where our kids are. That's where our mokopuna are. So it's openly and ready for them to see, and in some cases used. But you've got to deal with that gang element, because they're driving the whole drug trade. - Well, I think that's the issue ` is that I don't think` I disa` there's no pharmacological link in terms of the gateway between cannabis use and meth. Now, there is a social gateway,... - Yeah, there is. -...and the social gateway is that you're going to buy from somewhere where you may be exposed to other elements ` the gang element and the meth. - People that are using meth, would they prefer to be using weed? - Some of them have said that. But I also think that, generally speaking, many of our hapori have voted No for cannabis because they really think that we're voting and talking about meth, and we're not. - But the other thing, too, is meth is not something that is home-grown here. The precursor for the manufacturing of meth comes from offshore. And given the fact that we have poor offshore intelligence in this country, the borders are about as weak as they are on this issue. We are letting the precursor in to fall into the hands of organised crime and gangs. And so we've got to bust that distribution net. We've got to strengthen the borders. Otherwise we're continuously going to be running around like a hamster in a wheel on meth. And meth is destroying our kids. It's destroying our parents. - And the criminal justice system becomes the landing point for all the ugly stuff, Mihi. Once you're in there, you just cannot get out. - So, would you support further conversations, further discussions about decriminalisation. - I mean, the system we've got now and what we're proposing in the referendum ` somewhere in the middle there. - Yeah. - There is something else. I don't know what it is, but there is definitely a model that hasn't been talked about. - I just want to get to euthanasia. We had a kuia in that first break, a whaea, Maata, who wants the opportunity to end her life if she has to. Who are we to stand in the way, Matt? - I don't want to stand in the way of anybody, but I will say this until the cows come home ` until we give Maori a fighting chance and an equitable chance at life-saving, life-extending medications and a health system that works for us, including prevention of terminal forms of cancer, then quite honestly, we're having the wrong conversation yet again. You know, we step forward into what seems to be an easy, yet emotional conversation, instead of saying, 'Hey, the health system is broken, 'it's not suitable for us, our people are dying, we are late in getting diagnosis. 'If you live in the far north and you want cancer treatment, you've got to go all the way to Auckland.' You know, we are restricted. - We know that the health system is broken. You know, we've got recommendations at the moment for a separate Maori health authority. In terms of euthanasia, though, are you pleased with the outcome? - I am. I voted Yes, and my reasons for that are similar to the reasons for the Yes to cannabis. It's that I don't think that should be a reason to stop talk` They're not mutually exclusive propositions. Not transforming the justice system, not transforming or addressing inequities in health, both access, Pharmac, the whole shebang. So, it's one way to` and I don't think that was reason enough not to allow people like that kuia to have her choice. - We have a record number of Maori MPs heading back to parliament. In terms of transformational change, you know, Huri, you've been in the housing, poverty, all of those things now for a long, long time. What do you want? What's on your list? - Well, I mean, the first three years, was e wa whakaritenga hei e tu waka etahi. Now, there's the next three years of deliverance. And I'd like to think that we are going to get things done, particularly around the poverty area. Look, homelessness is just a by-product of just everything else that's not going well. To be honest, finding people homes at Te Puea is the easy part. Dealing with all the social issues that the whanau come with is the hard part for us. For us, we won't let them go into a home until they're ready. But in the end, though, Mihi, I'm hoping that there's a big mandate here. There's a lot of Maori mangai in there. I'm hoping that the next three years tuku ake kia matou nga taonga ake. - Kia ora. Wish list? - I want to see Te Tiriti embedded in all legislation related to government departments. They are not partnering with Maori as they are. They should be` stop the process of the brown box ticking and actually form true partnerships with Maori, Maori organisations, to get every job done. But my bigger wish list is I want to see more Maori in Cabinet. I want to see more Maori knocking on the door in the outer cabinet, so, Rino, Meka, Kiritapu, because once we're at the decision making table I think things will be vastly improved. But you're right, it's time for three years of delivery from the three years that we've just had. - Do they have a mandate. There's so many of them, do they have a mandate to have their own indigenous coalition, you know, document with the government from Maori caucus? - That's out of left field, but why not? - (CHUCKLES) - No, it's totally being talked about? Totally being talked up, you know, because they've got a mandate in there now. - Well, the Maori MPs, in terms of cross-party talks have always been pretty co-operative. So now they've got` yeah, now it's time for them to step up. Both within Labour and across the floor. - Any one issue you want to see, Khylee? - Justice, undoubtedly. As matua Moana Michael Jackson, says you cannot get justice in an unjust society. - That's right. - Beautiful finish. Tena koutou. Kia mau tonu mai ra te titiro ka auraki Te Hui akuanei. Auraki mai ano ki te hui. Hei tera wiki he kaupapa tukino ` - Taekwondo Master Andrew Salton was a trusted friend of the Whakarau whanau ` a coach and mentor to daughter Janae. - We couldn't afford to go on tournaments so he would go, 'Well, I've got to go because I'm their instructor.' So he goes, 'They can come with me.' - Salton was meant to be training her, but instead he was abusing her. - He said to me, 'Don't tell anyone about this, or me and you will be in the shit'. TEARFULLY: That's why I didn't tell my family. - Now, Janae and her whanau are speaking out about the abuse. - I just felt this wave of anger and sadness and how was I not able to protect my little sister? - That's next week on The Hui. - Kua hikina te hui mo tenei ra. Thanks for joining us today hui hoppers. We leave you this morning with the new waiata by Origin Roots nei ra a 'Ukaipo'. Noho oro mai ra. # Ukaipo! # Hoki mai ki te # Ukaipo # Kia rongo au # I te ihi rangaranga # Nei ra te whanau # E here, # e here mai ana # Ukaipo, # is where we want to be # Ukaipo # Hoki mai ki te Ukaipo # Kia rongo au # I te ihi rangaranga # Nei ra te whanau # E here, # e here mai ana # Ukaipo, # is where we want to be. # Longing for that place. # Ukaipo. - # Ukaipo. - # It's the only place # we belong # Home # Hoki mai ki te Ukaipo # Kia rongo au # I te ihi rangaranga # Nei ra te whanau # E here, # e here mai ana # Ukaipo # is where we want to be # Longing for that place # Ukaipo # Ukaipo! # It's the only place # we belong. # Home # Hoki mai ki te Ukaipo # I said home # is where # we want to # be. - # Ukaipo. # Captions by Joshua Tait Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2020 ALL: He mea tautoko nga te mangai paho. - The Hui is made with support from New Zealand On Air.