- E haere ake nei ` today on Newshub Nation ` straight talk with Grant Robertson on house prices, with live responses from tangata whenua. - A special report on rising racism against Asian kiwis. - And Pike families' last-ditch efforts to have their loved ones' bodies recovered. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 Tena tatou katoa. Good morning. I'm Simon Shepherd. - And I'm Tova O'Brien. Welcome to NewsHub Nation. In political news this week... - Cook Islands Prime Minister Mark Brown met with Jacinda Ardern Friday to discuss a two-way travel bubble, but no date has been set. Without a bubble, the Cooks could lose up to 40% of its workforce by the end of the year, according to its chamber of commerce. - The Nurses Society is warning a trans-Tasman bubble could strain their ability to care for sick people in managed isolation. They're concerned the 40% of rooms currently occupied by low-risk Australians will be filled with travellers from countries with big outbreaks of COVID. - And the government unveiled its housing policy reforms this week, including an extension of the bright-line test to 10 years. The Prime Minister has warned the changes will not be a silver bullet, while National has derided them as 'KiwiBuild 2.0'. - The only thing that gets more heated than the New Zealand housing market is the debate over how to fix it. Labour campaigned on it two elections ago, and yet in government, it's overseeing prices soaring through the roof. - Well, now the latest attempt has outraged investors and disappointed first-home buyers. Finance Minister Grant Robinson's job is to drive the change. I spoke to him earlier. Let's start with a multiple-choice question. Do you want to a) see house prices rise sustainably or b) see house prices fall? - Yeah, well, what we can't afford` And unfortunately, I've never been all that good at multi-choice, so I'm going to` - Well, it's either A or B, isn't it? There's only two options there. - Well... Well, actually, there's not, and the point is that what we've seen over the last few months are completely unsustainable house price rises, and so we want to make sure that we're doing something to act against that. In the end, what happens with house prices is not just a product of government policy; it's a product of things like what the interest rate is, how much supply we've got ` and we are adding to that through this package. - Yeah. - So what I do not want to see are the kinds of house price rises we've seen in recent times. - Yeah, but do you want to see them falling? - What I do want to see are more first-home buyers involved in the market. - OK, so would you like to see them fall? - What I want to see is downward pressure on the price rises that we've seen. Ultimately, it's not for me. - So that sounds like a yes. 'Downward pressure' sounds like a yes. - Well, ul` Downward pressure will mean that we don't see those kinds of price rises that we've seen over the last few months. What I want to see is a market in which first-home buyers can participate well, in which we've got a good supply of high-quality rental properties,... - Yeah. - ...in which we're building a lot more housing as well. So ultimately, the final shape of that market isn't something that I dictate. - No. - What we can do as a government is put` is have settings in place that enable more first-home buyers to be in` and enable a more affordable market. - So you want an` - And I believe the package we've put forward will make a difference in that. - You want an affordable market. If house prices don't fall, how can they become affordable? Because they've gone up by so much. - Well, as I say, what we can't afford is to see those continued increases. Look, the market will function when we` in a way that all of us will be more comfortable with when we have more supply coming on board, and it's one of the reasons why in this package we've exempted new builds from both the changes we're making to interest deductibility and the bright-line test ` because we want to shift investment to increase their supply. - OK. - It's the reason why we've put $3.8 billion dollars in for a housing acceleration fund ` so that we've got build-ready land. - And we will get to` - All of those things will contribute to a more affordable market. - OK. So what do you think is the right house price/income ratio? What do you think is the right ratio to get an affordable market? - Look, I mean, again, it is a ratio, so we need to make sure that incomes keep increasing, and we have seen incomes increase over recent years. At the moment, that ratio` - But don't they need to increase dramatically? They need to be increased dramatically for that ratio to be affordable. - (SIGHS) What we've got at the moment is a ratio of about eight to one across New Zealand. I don't think that's acceptable ` I do want to see that come down ` but I'm not going to put a particular number on it today, particularly because this package is just one part of the kind of work that we need to do in the housing market, that local government needs to do in the housing market, that has to be done by all of the people who participate. So eight to one is a level that I know we can't sustain and have an affordable market. We do want to see that come down. - Are you worried`? I mean, you can lead the discussion ` you're leading it with the policy ` you can lead the discussion and set the tone by saying, 'Yes, I do want to see a small price fall.' I mean, or are you just worried that it's purely political and you'll lose the homeowner vote if you do that and it does trigger a fall? - No, that's not what it's about. What we do have to respect is that for the vast bulk of New Zealanders, the only home they own is the one that they live in. It's a very important part of their security. I have no desire to undermine for those people that security. What we all know, though, is that the number of people who actually are getting a chance to be a first-home buyer, to be an owner/occupier has been compromised by the fact that we've had tax loopholes, the fact that we haven't built enough houses over the last few years. - Yeah. - And so we are taking action to deal with it. But, Simon, nobody should ever try to claim that there's a silver bullet for the housing crisis or that any one initiative is going to solve this ` or that it's going to happen quickly. - OK. - This is a big, complex, long-term challenge,... - Are you`? - ...but this package will make a difference. - Are you afraid that you might tank the economy if you say` Because we depend on house prices so much and it gives so much confidence to people if they think they have a rising house equity, are you worried you might tank the economy and tank the confidence? - No, that's not` I don't have that concern. I mean, one of the concerns we have had is that if we did allow house prices to rise at such an unsustainable level over a long period of time, that would start to become a house price bubble, and that would affect economic stability. And one of the reasons that we're stepping in now is to make sure that that does not happen. Look, this is about making sure that as many New Zealanders as possible can buy their own home; for those that can't, that we have rentals that are stable, that are warm, that are dry, and that we increase the supply overall. So all of those are factors that I can influence, but there are other influences in the housing market as well. - Well, let's talk about the rental market, then. I mean, you've extended the bright-line test to 10 years. Treasury warned that doing so could mean landlords sell up or increase the rents. So does that mean you're going to make the rental situation worse? Less stock; higher rents? - No, I don't necessarily believe so. What happens with rents is a product of a number of factors ` the demand and supply side, and we are moving to incentivise more supply. So that's why we're exempting new builds from the bright-line test extension and from the interest deductibility rule changes. - Yeah. - It's also affected by people's ability to pay as well. So we have to make sure that, you know, we keep an eye on what happens in the rental market. But we got a range of advice on this matter. And actually, you know, to be honest, every time we've made a change in housing, we've heard from some people that it will mean rents will go up to an enormous extent, and often that hasn't actually happened when those changes have been made. - OK. - But we'll keep an eye on that, because we obviously want to make sure that renting remains affordable. - Would you cap rent rises? Would you say you cannot rise above a certain level every year? - That's not on our agenda at the moment, but we will keep an eye on what happens. But I don't expect necessarily that we're going to see enormous rent rises out of that. We're certainly hearing a lot of rhetoric about that at the moment, but I know, actually, that a lot of the landlords that people talk about, the people who've got one property that's, you know, perhaps there for their retirement, they actually don't do big rent increases. They look after their tenants. We want to keep supporting those people. They generally hold their homes for longer than 10 years as well. - But they might have to. - What we're looking at here is that` - They might have to do rent increases now. - Yeah, well, let's see how that plays out. Let's see how that plays out. But some of the things that I've heard over the last few days from some of the speculators and people who own multiple investment properties is talking about, you know, they might increase rents by a particular amount ` well, what I would say is that under the Tenancy Tribunal rules, if rent rises are above the market rate, then that can be challenged. And if people do start behaving that way, then that may well be what some do. - So you're warning landlords to pull their heads in and not do massive rent increases when they can, even though you are taking away some of their tools, like the interest deductibility? - What I'm saying is that most landlords don't do that and won't do that. Most landlords get on well with their tenants and help look after their tenants. What's important for those who are making some of these claims is actually that the interest deductibility regime is phased out for people who are currently using it over a four-year period, so there's no need for precipitous action in response to that. For people who are buying properties into the future, they now know that that provision isn't available for them, and they may make different choices about their investments as a result. - Well, that's right. Let's talk about that. I mean, you've talked about landlords with multiple properties, but what about the so-called 'mum and dad' investors? Are you concerned that these people who are saving for the future by having a rental property are going to get out of the market now? And how are they going to save for their retirement if it's not profitable ` or even just equitable, or break-even ` to own a rental property? - Well, as I say, I think for a lot of those landlords, they keep their properties for well beyond 10 years, so the bright-line extension won't be an issue for them. - But what about the interest deductibility? They do leverage them right up. - When it comes to` (SIGHS, CHUCKLES) When it comes to interest deductibility, we are phasing that in over that four-year period, which will give those people time to assess whether or not they want to continue with this investment or move to another investment. For them, or for new investors, I would say` I would encourage you to look at investing in new builds,... - CHUCKLES: OK. - ...because then you will still be able to claim the interest deductibility rules and you'll be adding to the stock. And that's the nature of what we're trying to do here ` is a package of initiatives that helps not only tilt the balance towards first-home buyers but also gets on top of some of our supply issues. - Do you have enough clarity about this interest deductibility on new builds? Because we may be hearing that some developers are pushing pause, perhaps, while they understand exactly what you've put in place. - So, obviously, when we're making a significant change like this, we can make the overall decisions, but the process we now go through ` as we do with any major tax change ` is to consult with those very people on the finer details of this, and people will be able to understand that over the next couple of months. So obviously, if there are some people who want to take a pause and a breath while that happens, that's fine, and we'll have those decisions down as soon as possible. - So does that` - But I would equally be criticised, Simon, if we rushed those decisions and didn't consult with the people. - OK, but does that mean that the detail hasn't been worked out and that you rushed this policy, particularly the interest deductibility part, in? Because it blindsided a lot of people. - No, I don't believe so at all. We went to the country and said we would help address the housing crisis, and the last six months of last year, we saw unsustainable house price rises; we have had to act in response to that. This is a significant change ` I accept that ` and that's the reason why we will go through and consult on the details of it. But giving New Zealanders a clear signal of how it is that we're going to tilt the balance towards first-home buyers and add to the supply of housing is something we've been called on to do. We've done that,... - OK. Well` - ...and we will consult now on the finer details. - We'll talk about first-home buyers in a moment, but the extension of the bright-line test ` you ruled that out in the election campaign, so how can voters trust your words? - Yeah. So, obviously, when we were putting our policy together, we were being advised at that time that actually the effect of COVID-19 would be for house prices to go down. The opposite occurred in the second half of last year, dramatically, and so we have had to go forward with a policy such as extending the bright-line test that we did not plan to do. - Mm. - What I said in a particular interview was that I ruled out the extension; then actually wasn't what was in the Labour Party's policy for the election. I was too definitive there. I accept I got that wrong. But actually, we've acted now in the face of the circumstances that we've got because I think that's what New Zealanders would want us to do. - So is`? I mean, you came into power two elections ago saying you were going to help fix the housing crisis, but last year, you were waiting for COVID to do it for you? - No, far from it. I mean, we did a number of things in the first term, particularly in our state house building programme ` which is a bigger building programme than any government since the 1970s; changing rental laws to make things fairer and more secure for tenants. We did do a lot of things, but this comes back to the very comments at the beginning ` this is a big, complex challenge decades in the making. There is no single silver bullet for it. - OK. - But what we've done in our first term and in this package, I think, will make a difference. - Do you think that you have raised the cap enough for first-home buyers? I mean, it's gone up between $25,000 and $100,000 depending on where you're trying to buy, but as you say, the prices have gone up way more than that. Are first-home buyers still shut out of the market by this policy? - Yeah, so we have to find a way of judging where those first home loan grants and where the caps come in, and we use the CoreLogic data. The data we used for this was actually from March this year, and that data, you know, tells us that` what the median of the lower quartile is. So this has always been for starter homes ` these are for first homes ` and this is based on actual data. Now, theoretically, we could put the limit to a million dollars, but what that would mean is we would have people in situations where they simply would not be able to service the mortgage. We don't want to put them in that position, so we're using a measure based on real data, and that is one that I understand for some people might not get them the home that they want or that the home that's immediately available to them, but it is based on a particular set of criteria. - So you are telling them to redefine, to downscale their expectations of what they can get? Is this the way of the government, telling people to do that? - No, I'm simply saying` I'm simply saying this is` I'm simply saying this is the criteria that we use. It's not an invented number. It comes from the CoreLogic data and the median of the lower quartile of prices in a particular geographic area. - Yeah. All right. - That's what we're using. We have to have a basis for it, and that seems to us to be the right one. - OK. Just quickly ` $3.8 billion infrastructure fund ` we don't know who's going to be responsible for that yet. When are the details is going to come out about that? - Well, as Minister Woods has said a couple of times this week, she'll be bringing papers to Cabinet within the next couple of months on that. - OK. - But it will be a fund that we do with councils. This is about making sure that land that councils, iwi and others have actually has the pipes and the roads and the drains that we need to be able to build the houses on it. It's a very big sum of money relative to previous funds like this, and it has been provided as grants so that we can actually get on with building those houses. - So` There were no Maori housing initiatives in this particular announcement, but in that $3.8 billion for infrastructure, was anything set aside for iwi? - Yeah, well, iwi definitely be one of the partners in that fund. - OK. - And, you know, we had conversations as recently as Waitangi with iwi leaders talking to us about the land they've got but needing our help. So we would fully expect iwi housing providers to be part of that, but in addition, there will be a Maori housing package in the budget that will build on the previous initiatives we've done in areas like Papakainga, housing and supporting more Maori into home ownership. - Why didn't you prioritise them now? Because they are disproportionately being frozen out of the housing market. - As I say, we've already had initiatives in previous budgets that have invested in supporting more Maori into home ownership. We will have more in the future as well. And this really comes back to the point ` this has to be an ongoing, sustained period of investment in making a fairer housing system. We've got to give each initiative time to work, and there will be further initiatives as we go on. - OK, so` That's my last question to you ` is this it? I mean, have you emptied the locker, as it were, of housing initiatives, or what is the next thing you can do? Tell us what the next thing is that you can do if it doesn't work. - No, we definitely haven't, and, you know, we'll wait for the budget to be announced in May, but clearly, when we're addressing such a big long-term issue that's been decades in the making, we have to keep working ` we have to keep investing, supporting more supply, keeping control of demand, looking after renters. That's not going to be done in one budget or one package; we have to keep at it for a sustained period. - Grant Robertson, thank you very much for your time. - Thanks, Simon. - Grant Robertson there. If you've got something to say about that interview or anything you see on our show, let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram ` @newshubnationnz, and with the hashtag #nationNZ ` or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. - Still to come ` real-world responses to the government's housing plan and a plea from Pike River before the mine is sealed forever. - Welcome back. As the Government announced its plans for first-home buyers this week, Maori leaders were giving evidence to the Waitangi tribunal on how the crown has failed Maori on housing. Bernie O'Donnell is the chair of the Manukau Urban Maori Authority, and Mary Moeke-Te Purei has experienced homelessness herself. They watched our interview with Grant Robertson. Kia ora korua. Thank you very much for joining us. Mary, I'd like to start with you. You became homeless in 2017 after a marriage break-up. What was that like living in a van with your three children? - To be honest, being able to come here this morning and let Aotearoa New Zealand know the truth behind it, it was very disheartening and unfortunate. And the truth is that me and my children should never have ever been homeless in the first place. - Yeah, exactly. And your story as well, Mary, unfortunately, it's a similar story, isn't it Bernie, to tens of thousands of New Zealanders, predominantly Maori? And it is getting worse, much, much worse. Why aren't we curbing this crisis, Bernie? - In a funny way, I feel like I've known Mary for years, even though we've never meet, because she's very much part of the whanau that continue to be forgotten. It's failure over a number of generations that have gotten us to this place now where we're always an afterthought, and we then have to remind Government that we're here as well, and you have an obligation to make sure that our communities are warm and safe, like every other New Zealander. And I suppose we would expect that from this Government, who talked about obligations to the Treaty, talked about the importance of equity, and a Prime Minister who said before previously that she's tired of failing our people, failing Maori and Pasifika. So when this plan ` and it's a great plan, I've got to say, it's a good start in terms of home ownership for our people. I mean, the realities are we're not even in that space. Our people, it's just totally out of reach for them. And there's just an opportunity to do something different. I think the whole housing planning can flip everything on its head. You can't just build houses and think you've solved the situation. Quality housing is part of a cornerstone of what we call well-being and hauora. But if you just build houses like you've` I'm talking about social housing, actually. If you just continue to build those houses, all you're doing is building new ghettos. And the whanau go in there with the same issues they had before they moved into the whare. So those are the things we have to start thinking about. How can we... recalibrate, if you like, what we're doing with the housing strategy? - Because there's a real need for the wrap-around support because, Mary, in your experience, there wasn't any room in the safe houses or they weren't suitable for your children. You were being turned away, weren't you, by all these private landlords? And then when you went to the Ministry of Social Development, they told you you didn't warrant assistance, that you weren't destitute enough. So in your experience, how are government agencies treating people that need help? - In all honesty, I did the hard yards like every first-home buyer. I had three jobs. I went to the banks. I went to the mortgage brokers. I did everything that was needed to qualify for a loan, and I was able to service that loan by myself. My husband wasn't employed. I didn't get any money from my family. I did it. I did the hard yards. And what happened as a result was, because of a claim that was put forward, the money that I was meant to receive for the house to get me and my children a new house was being held in trust, and that money is still in trust today. - And so there was just a` it's almost a cookie-cutter approach almost, isn't it, rather than taking into account your personal circumstances? - And so according to MSD, because I had sold my house and have a huge amount of money that they call settlement, it was being housed in a trust fund through my solicitor. But what they didn't take into consideration, when assessing me according to their criteria, was that the money was in their account, not in my bank account. So therefore, they dinged me as being a rich Maori, who had money, because the money was there, but it wasn't in my account at that time. - When the reality is, you're sleeping in a van with your three kids. - Exactly. My children and I never intended to look for a rental property, whether it be a private rental or a housing rental. We were never, ever thinking like that in terms of selling my home and then moving to another location, but because of the Government and their policies, we were in limbo. - And so, Bernie, going into the Government's announcement this week, this big housing announcement, a cast of a thousand ministers and the Prime Minister. Were you optimistic? And then what did you think after you heard it? - To be fair, no. And that's pretty much par for the course. Successive governments have failed us, so I knew that we'd be an afterthought. You know, one of the things that Mary talks about that we really have to cotton on to, in terms of Tamaki Makaurau and especially South Auckland, there's this sort of stigma around us is that we're beneficiaries or we don't do anything, and we're the designers, we're the architects of our own fate. If you listen to Mary, she's fully employed. And we've got to start understanding what the working poor look like because these a growing number of that in our space. And when you when you live in Auckland, I tell you, especially in the rental property market ` $400 a week gets you squalor, $500 a week doesn't get you much more, and generally ` and I'm talking about the working poor here, never mind beneficiaries ` generally, $600 and over is a big strain on a family's income. So when the Minister, Robertson, talks about the property market, the rental property` you've got to look at Tamaki Makaurau in its own sort of space because it's almost impossible for our people to live. And something has to be done about that. - And to know that none of that $3.8 million has been set aside specifically for iwi, is that problematic? - Well, iwi is one of the solutions, but I think what we really need to understand is how can we change that? How can we use the opportunity of warm, safe, secure homes ` not houses, homes ` and then how can we start working with whanau that need the help around the whanau ora stuff? So, iwi, absolutely. But also, especially in Tamaki Makaurau urban Maori groups, and I've got a bit of self-interest in that because I've worked with MUMA, but the thing about the urban Maori marae that I worked with ` which is Manurewa, Papakura, Nga Whare Waatea, Te Puea, which are in South Auckland ` they're all on or next to pockets of government-owned land. All they had to do was make them available for the build. And what we should be doing after that is understanding that, if housing is the first objective, quality housing and homes are the first objective, then the next one is around whanau ora. It's an opportunity for us to engage at an early space with whanau. And that's really the bit we all need to understand. It's not just about housing that's going to make our people well. - And Mary, in 2018, you said that you were afraid for the future of your children. Did you hear anything in Grant Robertson's interview or the Government's announcement on Tuesday that gave you heart and hope for your tamariki? - In all honesty, no, I didn't. Yes, there is no silver bullet, according to them, but Maori have their own solutions. We've already got a whole range of strategies that we have put forward to the Government. But why bother? Because they're not even taken into consideration. I was present at a housing summit that year that I was made homeless because of being at Te Puea Marae, and when I heard from Manaia and Phil Goff that 2-odd billion had gone towards transport and a few million had gone towards housing, I questioned them. I questioned them in the room and said to them, 'That's not right. 'Why is there money going towards transport when the need is great for Maori, 'the need is great for homeless, the need is great for Aotearoa?' - And the numbers are shocking. The Housing Register saw those in most dire need of housing ` 3500 back in 2014, more than 22,000 today, half are Maori, and in fact, the number of Maori on that list has gone up by 20%. Did you expect` I suppose, last term, Winston Peters was in the government, fighting for universalism, but did you expect with a strong Labour Maori caucus, this crazy, big mandate and strong Maori representation in cabinet, did you expect better from Labour? - Absolutely. And it's not too late. They can turn the things around that we need to. They just need to hear us. They have more Maori ministers in parliament than ever before. So that's their opportunity to do right by us. You know, the other thing around the housing issue is about, especially in South Auckland again, our people are so transient, and because they can't` the only permanency they have, if you like, is poverty. But you can't raise a family if you continue to move houses, move houses, and it's terrible actually. Some of the schools` I'm a chairman of a school in Mangere. The rolls just struggle because the families just continue to move, continue to move, continue to move. Housing gives us a sense of permanency and starts to develop what we call building proud communities. And those are the things that we can start to address with this new roll-out of the plan. And I'll be interested to see what the` Minister Robertson talks about this Maori package. It would be good to see what is in that space. The only problem is, he's never spoken to us. Sometimes it's about understanding what the community needs, as opposed to thinking you know what the community needs. - Kia ora, Bernie. I think we're all looking forward to seeing that. Thank you very much, Bernie, and Mary as well. A reminder about the human face and the whanaus behind those numbers as well. Kia ora korua. Thank you very much. - Can I just add too that I'm now the newly, self-appointed mangai kawana tanga Maori mo te hahore tanga me kaainga kore Maori, which means that I am the new ambassador and the new face of Maori child poverty and Maori homelessness. My goal is to help all Maori end child poverty as well as Maori homelessness. - Kia ora, Mary. We look forward to talking to you more about that. - Kia ora. - Kia ora. Coming up in the news of the week ` it dissected by our political panel. Plus ` stark warnings from the New Zealand Asian community. A special report from Anna Bracewell-Worrall. Hoki mai ano. There's new pressure on the minister in charge of Pike River to consider going further into the mine. The documents revealing the government promised to do just that in 2017. Last week, Andrew Little told Newshub Nation he'd ruled out going beyond the drift, but an earlier cabinet paper committed to considering it. And some families say he's gone back on his word. Senior reporter Conor Whitten has this exclusive report. In Rowdy Durbridge's garage, not far from Pike River, a tribute to the memory of his son, Dan Herk. - This is Dan's bike, that he bought a couple of months before he got killed. - 29 is the number on the side in silver to symbolise the men who died inside. 10 years on, it doesn't get easier. - Yeah, top bloke. - The Pike River Drift recovery is almost finished, but the answers and the men remain out of reach. - This part of the journey, I find a little relief and quite a bit of frustration within how the money is running out and we can't really continue. - Evidence is still emerging from the Pike River Drift, the access tunnel into the mine. This footage obtained by Newshub Nation shows the loader driven by Daniel Rockhouse removed this week, A decade later, it's rusted over, but still intact. Rockhouse was one of two to survive the disaster. The rest remain entombed in Pike, stuck behind a roof fall at the end of the drift, with where the minister responsible says they'll remain. - I've dealt with a lot of other falls within a lot of other mines, and um... I believe in my heart that that this fall here is passable. - Last week, Andrew Little told New Nation the families agreed that as far as it goes. - We were all very clear what the mandate was; it was to recover the drift. - But the families say there was no such agreement. - I didn't sign anything to say that once we got to the fall that would be it. - And documents obtained by Newshub Nation prove they never promised to stop at the drift. In fact, the Pike Family's reference group asked the government that the possibility of entering the mine workings is left open until the drift's been recovered. A proper assessment can only be made once the rock-fall blocking access has been inspected, and documents revealed the government agreed. The cabinet paper setting up the Pike River Recovery Agency promises 'when the process of recovering the drift is well advanced, 'the Minister will report to Cabinet on whether any further work 'to assess the feasibility of re-entering the mine workings should be done.' No such assessment has ever taken place, but Little ruled it out back in March last year. The recovery was less than a quarter completed and nowhere near the roof collapse. - Yeah, I'd like to reassess it all and to have a look. - Bernie Monk says Little's broken his word. - If it is right, what he's saying, and his documents are saying something else, we're getting lied to. - Cloe Nieper husband Kane was also killed at Pike River last holiday, leaving her to raise their son, Kalani, alone. - I want to be able to tell my son what happened to his dad. - She believes Kaine is just beyond the roof fall in the area known as Spaghetti Junction. - That there's the original Spaghetti Junction. - The men waited there at the end of a shift. - To have that right in front of us, only metres away, to be able to get to them or get answers. It's just` (SIGHS) It's heartbreaking. - But standing in the way are two roof collapses, each thought to be about 15 metres long. The area was once considered impassable and last week, Little told Newshub Nation those last metres are a step too far. - And it's simply not a question of saying it's a short distance away, it is tens and tens of millions of dollars away. - But neither the agency nor the government know what entering the body of the mine would cost. In a statement, Agency CEO Dave Gawn says the only cost assessment was two years ago. It was very early, informal, internal and rough, while $60-100M had been projected, he says it is very speculative. There has been no detailed planning and nothing specific to limited objectives such as just going through the roof fall. What's more, experts believe it's possible. - I think it's feasible. - David Bell is an independent geology expert who previously advised WorkSafe and police. - There is definitely scope for doing more if it isn't a major impassable rock-fall. Another says gas is not an issue. Ventilation expert Dr. Roy Moreby consulted on the family's technical advisory group. He says ` - I don't understand why they can't, like, analyse it, see how much it's going to cost. - We asked Andrew Little whether he'd investigate the cost of going further into Pike River mine. In a statement, he said only that there's been no change to the mandate for recovery of the Pike River Drift. Little has a meeting next week with the Pike River Families Reference Group ` they represent some but not all of the families. Durbridge is a member and he has a message now. If that happened, you know, in the end would be phenomenal. Yeah, no, I'd be over the moon, to be honest with you. Conor Whitten with that report I'm joined now by our panel, Newshub business reporter, Madison Reidy, parliamentary staffer turned PR consultant Ben Thomas, and Matthew Tukaki, Chairman of the National Maori Authority. Kia ora kotou. Thank you very much for joining us. Ben, given that the government promised in 2017 to consider going beyond the drift, why do you think Andrew Little is reneging now? - This obviously is an unspeakably sad situation going back about 10 years. I think the initial mistake was Labour promising to go back into the mine. It's still not clear, even at this stage, what anyone thinks they will find by going back in there. You know, we know what happened in the mine. There was a detailed there was a royal commission of enquiry. There have been changes to our health and safety system, you know, in order to prevent any more unnecessary deaths, which, you know, there is a very real possibility of if we keep going back into that disaster site. You know, it is a tragic situation, but I don't think it's within the power of the New Zealand government to give the families the closure that they want. - Do you think, though, Maddie, that it's` Is it about safety? Is it the expense? Is there a lack of political will? - I mean, this story will forever break my heart Tova. But I don't think this was ever about money, you know? This was a commitment to those families that they would go in and that they would bring, hopefully, bring their fathers, brothers and sons back out. I don't think any of this is about cost. I mean, the benefit is to the family. If the government wanted to put more money up to do it, they would do it. I think it's political will, not money. - So, Matthew, given that they are so close, do you think that they should take the next step? - Look, I'm a great believer of you're that close, go further. At the end of the day, a promise has been made to those families. I mean, as a Maori, I know what grief and mamae looks like, trust me. But at the end of the day, there's only so much you can do. At some point we're gonna have to make a decision, and move from grief into memorial stage. You know, let's have a look at, you know, creating a national memorial down there on the site, because the last thing I want to do is send more people in there and risk their lives and their safety. If indeed something does happen, somebody's going to look for somebody else to be blamed. - And perhaps a bit of consistency from the government as well. If there is a cabinet paper suggesting that they might do this, the families don't feel like they have this commitment from` or this line in the sand from Andrew Little. Do you think that they need to at least be a bit more consistent with their communications? - Initially, the commitment to go back into Pike River came at this very untidy time in the Labour Party's history where they were making all sorts of promises it turned out they couldn't deliver. It came around the same time as Kiwibuild, around the same time as all of these things that aren't quite as gut-wrenching, but were also just things that a reasonably desperate opposition were kind of spinning off the top of their heads They should never have made the promise. They set expectations way too high that they would deliver something that they never could. - I want to move on to housing now because there's been plenty of reaction to Labour's housing announcement this week. Mary, Grant Robertson basically rushing out that tax write off, blindsiding investors. What are you hearing from some of your sources? - A complete blindside, and what terrifies me, and in fact, what I'm hearing a lot ` from property investors, mostly landlords, too, but also from the likes of economists ` is the fact that there's a complete absence of any Treasury analysis that I'm aware of on this interest deductibility, this tax change, which will slap more money, you know, on the cost of owning a rental, especially multiple properties. And there's just been no foresight into what impact this could have on the rental market, what this could do for house prices. I mean, the way I see it, as Grant Robertson is basically yanked a huge handbrake on the economic tack, pulled a huge burn out and has no idea how many cars are going to come slamming into it. And the scariest thing is, is that our house prices are so overvalued, they're at the highest cliff they've ever been that if they do fall, which we don't even know if that will happen, we don't even know how much tax take these policies could bring in. IRD can't tell us that. The economic injury on the way down, it could be enormous and disastrous. - And what did you think, Matt? Did they meet expectations, particularly, you know, we're hearing from Bernie and Mary there, do you think that they met the expectations, particularly for Maori? - Well, let's be really clear here ` we've got a problem that's decades in the making. Look, we can we can carry on about the bright line test as much as we want, about property investors and all the rest of it. But let's get some facts on the table. We need to build about 20,000 new homes, minimum, just the state sector, all right? The average cost of a house with no land is about $396,000 in Auckland alone. Somebody try and tell me we're going to find the capital to build that many homes at that value and also the land to go along with it. It takes about 9-12 months to get a house to market fully built. That includes a consenting process on the off chance that the pipes and the drains in the sewerage stuck below ground is all ready, and it also relies on whether or not we've got enough of a workforce to build these houses. Builders, labourers, chippies, sparkies, roofers, glaziers, plumbers, gas workers, you name it. And by the way, they can get up to 25% more by doing the same job in Australia who is using construction and infrastructure as economic stimulus right now. So let's just get a reality check on where we are. We also know that we have a massive problem in the rental affordability market. Now, has anything that's being produced so far reflective of that? So I want the politics out of this and I want us to focus purely and squarely on the reality of what it takes to stand homes up now. - I want to put the politics back in for a second, then carry on about the bright line test. Ben ` do you think an extension of the bright line test to 10 years, is that Jacinda Ardern breaking a promise when she said she wasn't going to introduce capital gains tax under her watch? - Yeah, of course. But I think it's an acceptable breaking of a promise. What we saw with its, you know, budget responsibility rules in the previous term was the government establishing its economic bona fides for fiscal management. They did that successfully. And what that does is it buys you some leeway, just as it did with John Key and Bill English to say they were going to have tax revenue neutral tax changes that actually ended up costing quite a lot. You know, you do buy that credibility by, you know, ramping up your record. The question is, will it do anything? I think Madison's right. You know, previously I've criticised the government for not being nearly bold enough on housing. I think it's very bold to implement a policy when you basically have no idea what it will do, which is the case with these interest deductibility rules. The other thing that's really interesting is that so the way that it's been done is this law will be passed in October. It will be retrospective back to today. And yet some of the details, like will new builds be exempt from interest deductibility restrictions are not actually set out in the documentation the government's released. - That is very confusing. - Now, Grant Robertson repeatedly said in that interview, new builds will be exempt. - What, figured out that morning, TBH. - If you go to beehive.govt.nz and check out the Governments official communications, they say that's still being worked on. Now, either that they were up late last night working on it or there's some real message confusion here. And it's not really acceptable to people, you know, plan for things they'll be liable from today, but not tell them about it. - I think they still haven't figured out how they want to term a new build. But there's something you figure out before the policy is announced. Maddie, so much squirming from the Finance Minister, from the prime minister, from any politician you ever ask about whether house prices need to fall? Do they just need to be upfront and say, 'Yes, there's too much heat, it needs to come down?' - Absolutely. Absolutely. And as you were talking about, you know, messaging and communication, you know, uncertainty counts for a lot, economically speaking. And even just by not having a clear message and using confusing words like we want to slow growth, you know, unsustainable growth, it's just up or down. That's as simple as it is. You know, we know that they can't stay where they are and tilt the balance towards first home buyers. We know that you're siding with them. Just say it. You know, just call this a war on property investors. Just call it what it is. - I mean, the terminology used, quite frankly, is just nonsense. It's hoha I mean, just say it what it` call it what it is. This bright line test, for example, it's a capital gains tax. Let's just call it a CGT, move on with life, set the parameters around what the CGT needs to look like, learn the lessons from what happened in Australia and come on, it's all just get on with it. But there's overuse of language that, quite frankly, the average New Zealander, let alone the average Maori cannot understand means that you're looking at the TV every night thinking, 'But what did you just say? I don't understand what you just said.' - But remember, overall, it benefits the government to have rising house prices. The majority of people who turn out to vote for elections live in an owner-occupied house. The government does not want prices to fall. It does not want it to sound in the media like prices will fall. What it wants is for people to believe that it is doing something to salve the consciences of some guilty property owners and to make its base think that maybe there's a bright future ahead. - And on that happy note, we have to leave it there. Thank you very much. Clear message to the government. Stop playing political silly buggers with housing. Up next, stark warnings about rising racism against the New Zealand Asian community. Plus, fresh calls in parliament for the speaker to resign. - Hoki mai ano. There's a warning from the New Zealand Asian community. Racism is rising and needs to be stopped before there's a tragic repeat of the Christchurch terrorist attack or the Atlanta spa shootings. Anna Bracewell-Worrall with this report. - A car pulled up and started throwing beer bottles at me and calling me racial slurs. - Every single day, pull their eyes back and say, 'Ching-chong Chinese.' - I had an incident where someone threatened to kill me, and it was very specific as to how he was going to kill me. - The women come out and are pointing at me, 'Go back to China!' Like that. - ANNA BRACEWELL-WORRALL: All of these people have been told to go home. They are home, even if sometimes it doesn't feel that way. Steph (Hai Hui) Tan went to school in Auckland. Trying to fit in with predominantly Pakeha classmates meant rejecting her mother's homemade lunches. - My mum would make me an incredible lunch of Chinese food, and people would smell it and say, 'That's smelly, disgusting Chinese food.' ` Racism followed her as she grew up. - You're cool 'for an Asian', or you're hot or good-looking 'for an Asian'. Do you see us on a different spectrum? How do you view our physical appearance? - The affect ` battling with an internalised feeling of being less than. - It's very embedded and you start to believe that you genuinely are inferior. - It can mean withdrawing from society. - It can also mean saying, 'Hey, I'm really Kiwi, and so I'm gonna distance myself from my family, 'their traditions, from a foreign accent.' It might even mean using racial discrimination against members of your own ethnic group, making fun of their accent, that kind of thing. - There's a long history of anti-Chinese racism. From 1881 until 1944, Chinese migrants faced a steep tax to enter New Zealand. Ships could only bring in one Chinese migrant for every 10 tons of cargo. - That dehumanisation of the subordinate worker makes them a more obvious foreigner, all right? And sometimes that foreigner can fit in, but if the international circumstances change, all of a sudden, it's real easy to take a dehumanised group and turn them into a threat. - That's what happened when COVID-19 emerged from Wuhan, further exacerbated by the former-US president obsessed with blaming China for the pandemic, drumming up anti-China rhetoric. - ...nation's going to defeat this terrible China virus. 'Kung flu'. The China virus, as I call it, because it came from China. The United Nations must hold China accountable for their actions. - When people in positions of authority, mainstream racist ideas and mainstream racist rhetoric like that, it emboldens people and it makes people feel like it's OK to say those things. - Figures released by the Human Rights Commission in February found 44% of Chinese New Zealanders feel unsafe due to blame for COVID-19. 54% experienced racism since the outbreak. 20% of those people hadn't experienced it before COVID-19. In March last year, at the height of COVID concerns, a stranger sprayed a cleaning product on Francisco Hernandez at an Auckland mall. - I have no idea what it was cos I didn't confront him or anything. It was soapy, for sure. - These Asian New Zealanders, their experiences of racism were front of mind on Tuesday when awful news broke from Atlanta ` a mass shooting targeting spas. - ARCHIVE: The killings happened amid a surge of hate crimes against Asian-Americans. - Eight people killed at three different locations ` six of them of Asian descent. It struck home in Auckland. - I think, 'That could have been my mother, my sister.' (CROWD CLAMOURS) - Stop the hate! - Around the US, groups rallied to support the Asian community. In Auckland, Tan organised a march for Saturday. - I don't see these events as just isolated lone wolves, extremists. We as a society breed this extreme behaviour because of what we normalise just on a day-to-day basis. It's those everyday, little comments, such as, 'Go back to China. Ching-chong.' Horrible slurs like that. That is what normalises to the extremists that we are a vulnerable group that deserves to be targeted. - Muslim communities warned police of rising racism before the Christchurch terror attacks. They felt unheard. Tan's issuing a similar warning it could happen again against the Asian community. - We don't want it to get bad enough that some horrific, extreme event has to happen before we pay attention. - Race Relations Commissioner Meng Foon has escalated concerns about a copycat event as well. - Authorities really need to be alert. - Other groups are on the alert too. Paparoa monitors online hate. It says anti-Chinese sentiment is rising, especially among anti-vaccine and anti-lockdown movements. Police can record whether crimes are motivated by hate, but hate crime is not an offence in and of itself. Tan wants that changed so that assaults motivated by hate carry a heavier sentence. - Adding that into policy here really symbolises that we cannot see each other as complete different people. - But mostly, she just wants New Zealand to do better. - In our pandemic response, it doesn't help blaming anyone and being racist to anyone. It's simply racist. What we need to do is come together and support one another to keep each other safe. - Stay with us. We're back after the break. Welcome back. It was another fiery week in the chamber with clashes over capital gains and even calls for the speaker's resignation. Here's Finn Hogan with the week that was in Wellington. Well, to the surprise of no one, there was a whole lot of housing in the House this week. - ...could now be subject to tax on their family home. - ...under the policy introduced by the national government. - Order! - But now in its fourth year of speaker, Mr. Millard seems to be losing patience. - The leader of the opposition thinks she's got the answer she shouldn't ask the question. Well I just live in hope some time in this house that someone will ask a genuine question. - And while Swarbrick came out swinging at National... - I dare them to tell me that those New Zealanders in the bottom half are not hardworking. - But David Seymour was less than impressed with their arguments. - This is why the Green Party have the` sometimes, no disrespect ` kooky reputation that they do. - And could the time of Speaker Trevor Mallard be coming to an end. If this fella gets his way, it will. - I and the National Party believe it is critical that Trevor Mallard resign as Speaker of the House. - However, as the Speaker serves at the pleasure of the PM and Labour, I think we'll be hearing him shout... - Order! - ...for a long time yet. OK, we're back with our panel, Madison Reidy, Ben Thomas and Matthew Tukaki. Let's talk bubbles. Now, not Australian bubble, but Cook Islands bubble. The government announced that they're aiming for one of the Cook Islands open up in May. Will that satisfy the crickets? (LAUGHS) The crickets... The critics, Ben? - Uh... - Because they've been promising it for a while. - Yeah, look, I think it's actually unconscionable the way the government has dragged its heels on travel bubbles, both with our Pacific Island neighbours and with Australia. You know, there will never be a better time than there is now. No matter how long we wait, there's always the possibility of small community outbreaks, which we've shown we can contain here and in Australia. We know that the Pacific islands are safe. They've been safe the whole way through. And we are letting down our Pacific Island neighbours by not giving them the foreign exchange earnings that they desperately need, both through tourism and through migrant workers. - Just, let's just pick up on that point about, you know, tourists from New Zealand going to the Cook Islands. Jim Boult in Queenstown is worried that if he doesn't get a trans-Tasman bubble, and the Cook Islands opens up first, Maddie, everyone's gonna go off to the Cook Islands, and bye-bye Queenstown. - We're just all gonna head overseas into the warmth and sit at a resort and then Queenstown will just continue to suffer. And it's a pretty legitimate concern from Jim Boult. I mean, we know that Aussies want to head to Queenstown. Sco-Mo has said that, himself, in Australia, he probably is looking to book a holiday to Queenstown. And the second that the border opens up for us to go somewhere else, people absolutely will look to do that, because they haven't been able to take a holiday in over a year. - You're looking dubious there, Matthew. - Yeah, look funny that, eh? I mean, the Queenstown having another crack at all the people that aren't there and spending money in their shops because Queenstown has been expensive for every other New Zealander going back a fair few years. Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of hearing about Queenstown. I get they're doing it tough, but so is Rotorua, so is Taupo, so is Auckland, so is the far north. Here's the thing, right? I would rather see that the Pacific islands get investment in making sure they're vaccinated, that they've got enough immunisation going on around town before we open the borders to them to keep them safe. I mean, I remember the measles outbreak, right? - And that decimated areas of Western Samoa and Tonga. So let's play it safe. Now, in terms of the Trans-Tasman bubble. Oh, look at me. I'm a big fan of opening that bubble for` - You love Australia. - I love Australia. I mean, I spent 20 years over there. We've got a house over there that's been sitting empty, and I want to replenish that duty free cabinet like anybody else. I've got any number of twenty firsts and seventieths coming up, my point is, let's just take a chill pill and relax. I understand the economic challenge that people are facing, but it's not as if we're not prepared for that. - So, but Ben's saying that the government's been unconscionable in dragging its heels. - Oh, but Ben would say that, though. I mean, I love you, Ben, love your commentary. - But let's face it. I mean, the reality is how more unconscionable can you get? - Well, let's get Ben a jump. - It is ridiculous that people from the Pacific Islands or Australia have to spend two weeks in a MIQ facility where they are much, much more likely to contract COVID at the Jet Park Hotel than they are in their own countries. I mean, you know, we have seen all the transmission that happens of COVID in New Zealand happens at these hotels, and we are getting people from COVID free Pacific paradises. If we want them to come and pick fruit here, we put them up in these hotels. It makes no sense. - One thing I find quite bizarre about all of this talk about bubbles over recent weeks is this checklist, which includes Bloomfield having to sign it off himself and saying that, you know, we have to ensure that airlines and airports are ready. Auckland Airport has had a green zone in place for the likes of the Cooks for months now. I think even last year they had that in place. They they're definitely not the ones dragging their heels on this. It is purely Government. - OK. I just want to quickly move on to one more topic. Christopher Luxon in the house, in his maiden speech this week, he drew attention to his Christian faith. And he was at pains to point out that he was moderate, Ben, why would he do that? - Well, there's been a bit of criticism of Luxon that, you know, he might be, you know, conservative Christian, that he might be a bit of out of step with the mainstream New Zealand. That would obviously be a challenge to his political career going forward, where I think it's reasonably well flagged that he probably wants to be the leader of the National Party. - And will he be the leader of the National Party? Yes? No? - Look, nothing... - Say it, Ben. - Don't rule out anything with the National Party right now, OK? You know, look, the caucus the caucus is an absolute shambles after the last election. - Gotta move quickly on this, will he be the leader of the National Party, Matthew Tukaki? - Well, look, I mean, it's not as if they've got a whole conga line of people lining up for the job other than Simon Bridges... - I'd love to see a conga line of National Party members. - Well, this is it. But look, you know, how about` Here's the thing, focus less on the leadership and focus on your policy and preparing the way for voters to be able to have confidence in you. Now, Luxon of Luxor, you know, yes, he might have run Air New Zealand for a period of time. That hasn't turned out that well lately, of course. But seriously, focus more on your policies and the people. - And I've said that people need to get back to the basics of opposition, not flashy music videos of slow-motion walks through parliament and their own personalised` - And I'm going to roll the credits there. Thanks very much, Ben Thomas, Matthew Tukaki, Madison Reidy, for your time. That's all from us for now. Nga mihi nui, thanks for watching. We are off air for Easter, so we'll see you again in a fortnight. Ka kite. Captions by Maeve Kelly, Sophie Pearce and John Gibbs Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 This programme was made with the assistance of the New Zealand on a platinum fund.