CAPTIONS BY MICHAELA CORNELIUS AND KRISTIN WILLIAMS. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2021 TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME.AS TODAY ` AN IN-DEPTH INTERVIEW WITH PRIME MINISTER JACINDA ARDERN. I QUESTION HER ON HOUSING, THE VACCINE ROLLOUT, AND AN UNPRECEDENTED DECISION IN THE FIGHT AGAINST COVID-19. HOW DO YOU KNOW THE DECISION TO SUSPEND TRAVEL FROM INDIA WASN'T MADE FOR RACIAL REASONS? THEN, ANOTHER WEEK, ANOTHER MAJOR WATER PIPE BURST IN WELLINGTON. BUT IS CRUDDY INFRASTRUCTURE JUST A WELLINGTON PROBLEM? OR COULD WE ALL BE UP A YOU-KNOW-WHAT CREEK? ONE THING TO SAY IS THIS IS A NATIONAL ISSUE. WE'RE NOT ALONE IN FACING THIS. AND FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE SCHOOL CLIMATE STRIKES BEGAN, WE HAVE THE BONES OF A FRAMEWORK FOR NEW ZEALAND'S CLIMATE FUTURE. WHAT DO THE KIDS THINK? WHAT BROUGHT YOU DOWN TO THE CLIMATE PROTEST TODAY? UM, OUR WORLD'S DYING, AND WE NEED OUR GOVERNMENT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. 3� YEARS SINCE SHE BECAME PRIME MINISTER, WITH AN ONGOING GLOBAL PANDEMIC, JACINDA ARDERN'S GOVERNMENT IS RESPONDING TO CRISES ON MULTIPLE FRONTS. THE PRIME MINISTER HAS AGREED TO TWO INTERVIEWS A YEAR WITH Q+A. IN OUR FIRST FOR 2021, I BEGAN BY ASKING ABOUT COVID-19 AND THE HOTEL WORKER WHO THIS WEEK TESTED POSITIVE TO THE VIRUS. HAVING MISSED THEIR APPOINTMENTS FOR THE VACCINE, WHY WAS THAT PERSON STILL WORKING ON THE FRONT LINE? SO THEY HAD TWO BOOKINGS, AND YOU'RE RIGHT TO POINT OUT THAT THOSE WERE APPOINTMENTS THAT, FOR A RANGE OF REASONS, THEY HAVEN'T MADE. AND I THINK THE IMPORTANT POINT HERE FOR ME TO MENTION IS THAT, OF COURSE, WE HAD PRIORITISED OUR FRONT-LINE WORKERS, BUT FOR THEM, THE RAMIFICATIONS OF NOT BEING VACCINATED ARE SIGNIFICANT. AND SO WHILST WE HAVE SUCCESSFULLY VACCINATED OVER 80% OF THOSE FRONT-LINE WORKERS, WE'RE NOW MOVING INTO THE PHASE WHERE, REALLY, THE WINDOW IS CLOSING, THAT IF THEY ARE NOT VACCINATED AND WE'RE GIVING THROUGH` AND WE ALREADY HAD SET DOWN THAT THE PERIOD FROM MONDAY THROUGH TO THE END OF THIS MONTH, IF IN THAT PERIOD THEY'RE NOT VACCINATED, THEY ARE REDEPLOYED. SO THAT IS REALLY LAST CALL. WE'D ALWAYS PLANNED THAT THIS WOULD BE THE PERIOD IN WHICH THAT WOULD HAPPEN. WE KNEW THAT VACCINATION WOULD BE AVAILABLE FOR SOME TIME. THIS PERSON MISSED TWO OPPORTUNITIES. WHY DIDN'T YOU MOVE THEM OFF SOONER? AND LOOK, AGAIN, THIS IS A SITUATION WHERE YOU'RE RIGHT. TWO APPOINTMENTS WERE MADE. THAT INDIVIDUAL HASN'T MADE THOSE APPOINTMENTS, AND NOW WE MOVE INTO A SITUATION WHERE, AS A RESULT OF THAT, THEY COULD BE MOVED ON. SORRY, BUT THAT DOESN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHY NOT MOVE THEM SOONER? IF YOU MISS ONE APPOINTMENT, SAY ` GIVEN THESE ARE OUR HIGHEST-RISK INDIVIDUALS ` WHY NOT MOVE THEM SOONER? AND OVER 80 PER CENT% OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN, SO LET'S` BUT THIS PERSON WASN'T, AND THEY TESTED POSITIVE. AGAIN, AND LET'S` SO WHY NOT MOVE THEM SOONER? AND LET'S JUST ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THESE ARE INDIVIDUALS WHO'VE BEEN THE FIRST IN THE QUEUE AND THE RAMIFICATIONS FOR THEM NOT BEING VACCINATED ARE HUGE. MM. IN SOME CASES, YOU KNOW, THEY'LL BE MOVED TO JOBS. IN OTHER CASES, THEY MAY NOT HAVE A PLACE TO GO, AND SO WE DID GIVE TIME FOR INDIVIDUALS TO BE VACCINATED. THE MAJORITY HAVE. FOR THAT SMALL GROUP, WE NOW GO THROUGH A PROCESS. ANOTHER POINT TO MAKE, THOUGH ` THIS IS SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR A COMPANY THAT WE CONTRACT. SO FOR THEM, IT IS ACTUALLY WITH THE EMPLOYER THAT WE HAVE ASKED THEM TO ENSURE THEIR WORKFORCE HAS BEEN VACCINATED, SO WE NEED TO KEEP WORKING THROUGH WITH THOSE PRIVATE CONTRACTORS TO ENSURE THEY'RE FULFILLING THOSE OBLIGATIONS. HOW DO YOU KNOW THE DECISION TO SUSPEND TRAVEL FROM INDIA AND THE ADVICE ON THAT FRONT WASN'T MADE FOR RACIAL REASONS? BECAUSE I WOULD NOT MAKE A DECISION ON THAT BASIS EVER. ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT SOME PEOPLE HAVE INTERPRETED THAT DECISION AS BEING RACIST? OH, I WOULD NEVER WANT ANYONE TO INTERPRET A DECISION IN THAT WAY, BECAUSE THAT IS NOT THE BASIS ON WHICH IT WAS MADE, AND, JACK, IF WE HAD THE SAME EVIDENCE COMING THROUGH IN OTHER HIGH-RISK COUNTRIES, I WOULD DO EXACTLY THE SAME THING. I WOULD TREAT IT IN AN EQUITABLE WAY. THE ISSUE WE HAVE IS THAT WE PUT IN PLACE PRE-DEPARTURE TESTING TO TRY AND REDUCE DOWN RISK NOT ONLY ARRIVING AT THE BORDER BUT FOR TRAVELLERS. WHAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT IS, FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN FROM THE GENOME SEQUENCING, WE CAN TELL THAT TRAVELLERS IN THAT SHORT PERIOD BEFORE THEY DEPART ARE GETTING SICK. MM. SO I WORRY THAT THEY ARE AT RISK THROUGH THE ACT OF TRAVELLING. I FEEL LIKE I HAVE A DUTY OF CARE TO TRY AND MAKE THAT LESS RISKY FOR THEM BUT ALSO LESS RISKY GENERALLY. ARE THEY NOT ALSO AT RISK STAYING IN INDIA AT THE HEIGHT OF THIS PANDEMIC? OH, IT LOOKS PEOPLE WILL BE TRAVELLING FOR VARIOUS REASONS, BUT IN SOME CASES, THEY MAY NOT HAVE HAD COVID UNTIL THE VERY ACT OF TRYING TO GET TO THE AIRPORT IN ORDER TO FLY TO NEW ZEALAND. AND I'M VERY MINDFUL OF THE OBLIGATION WE HAVE TO OUR CITIZENS AND PERMANENT RESIDENTS TO COME HOME, BUT I WANT THEM TO DO THAT SAFELY, AND SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE TAKING THIS PAUSE ` AND IT IS A PAUSE; THIS IS NOT PERMANENT ` TO SEE IF WE CAN FIND BETTER WAYS... MM. ...TO SUPPORT THEIR HEALTH NEEDS AND NEW ZEALAND'S. WE'VE SEEN UP TO 180,000 CONFIRMED CASES A DAY IN THE UNITED STATES, HUGE SPIKES IN THE UK. PREVIOUSLY IN THIS PANDEMIC RESPONSE, YOUR OWN HEALTH OFFICIALS STRONGLY ADVISED YOU TO CLOSE THE BORDERS TO ALL ARRIVALS. WHY ARE YOU DRAWING THE LINE HERE? WELL, THEY IN THE PAST, OF COURSE, MADE THAT STATEMENT BEFORE WE, OF COURSE, HAD THE ADVICE THAT WE COULD NOT PERMANENTLY` AND NOR HAVE I BELIEVED WE SHOULD EVER PERMANENTLY STOP CITIZENS AND PERMANENT RESIDENTS FROM BEING ABLE TO COME HOME, BECAUSE YOU DEEM THEM STATELESS AT THAT POINT, AND WE CAN'T DO THAT. AND SO HEALTH GAVE THAT ADVICE RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING, SO THIS IS A YEAR AGO... MM. ...WHEN WE WERE WORKING TO FIND WAYS TO MANAGE. IT WAS BEFORE` YOU REJECTED THAT ADVICE, THEN. IT WAS BEFORE WE HAD MANAGED ISOLATION FACILITIES. MM. NOW, WE REJECTED THAT ADVICE BECAUSE A PERMANENT BAN ON THE ABILITY TO PEOPLE TO COME HOME WAS WRONG. KEEP IN MIND, SINCE THAT TIME, WE'VE HAD QUITE A BIT OF TIME FOR PEOPLE TO GET BACK, AND A LOT HAVE ` OVER 130,000 NEW ZEALANDERS. MM. PER CAPITA, WE HAVE BROUGHT HOME MORE NEW ZEALANDERS THAN THE LIKES OF AUSTRALIA. BUT PRE-DEPARTURE TESTING FOR THOSE OTHER COUNTRIES WHICH HAVE BEEN HIGH-RISK, WE DID SEE A DROP IN CASES, BUT WE HAVEN'T` WE'VE SEEN AN INCREASE COMING FROM INDIA. SO I JUST WANNA TAKE SOME TIME ` A SHORT TIME ` TO SEE IF WE CAN IMPROVE ON THAT. LET'S TALK ABOUT VACCINATION RATES. SO AT THE MOMENT, NEW ZEALAND IS BEHIND, ON A PER-CAPITA BASIS, THE LIKES OF MONGOLIA, SURINAME, URUGUAY, RWANDA. YOU'VE EXPLAINED THAT THAT IS BECAUSE OF OUR APPROVAL PROCESS AND THE DECISION TO VACCINATE ALL NEW ZEALANDERS WITH THE PFIZER VACCINE. WE'RE SECOND TO LAST, THOUGH, IN THE OECD FOR VACCINATION RATES. WELL, ACTUALLY, NO, I'VE GIVEN A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT EXPLANATION FROM THAT. OK. I MEAN, IT IS TRUE TO SAY WE HAVE NOT, UNLIKE MANY OTHER COUNTRIES, RUSHED OUR APPROVAL PROCESS. WE TOOK A NORMAL PROCESS FOR APPROVAL FOR THE VACCINE, AND I STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO GIVE PEOPLE CONFIDENCE IN THE VACCINE WE'RE USING. BUT ANOTHER SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTING FACTOR IS WE ABSOLUTELY ACCEPTED WE WOULDN'T BE THE FIRST ROLLING OUT, BECAUSE THE EQUATION IN NEW ZEALAND IS SO DIFFERENT. OUR PEOPLE AREN'T DYING. AND SO THAT DOES MEAN THAT SOME COUNTRIES ` DESPITE MAYBE IN SOME CASES HAVING THEIR AGREEMENTS AFTER US; SOME CASES BEFORE ` RECEIVED THEIR VACCINES BEFORE, NECESSARILY, WE DID. SO HOW FAR DOWN THE LIST ARE WE? OH, I COULDN'T TELL YOU, NECESSARILY, WHAT THE ADVANCED PURCHASE` BUT YOU'VE MADE THIS CONSCIOUS DECISION. I MEAN` ADVANCED PURCHASE AGREEMENTS, I CAN'T TELL YOU WHEN COUNTRIES SIGNED THEIRS. OURS WERE, YOU KNOW, FAIRLY EARLY ON, BUT PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES THEN MADE THE DECISION AROUND DISTRIBUTION, AND I SUPPORT THE FACT THAT WE HAVE BEEN LATER IN THE PECKING ORDER. I WAS ON A ZOOM CALL NOT THAT LONG AGO WITH OTHER WORLD LEADERS, AND I THINK WITH THE EXCEPTION OF ONE COUNTRY, EVERY COUNTRY HAD STARTED BEFORE US, BECAUSE EVERYONE HAD BEEN LOSING LIVES AND WE WEREN'T. AND SO I THINK NEW ZEALANDERS ACCEPT THAT. THE IMPORTANT POINT IS WHEN WE FINISH, AND NEW ZEALAND IS, YOU KNOW, ON A SIMILAR TRAJECTORY TO MANY OTHER COUNTRIES AND LOOKING TO FINISH THIS YEAR. LET ME ASK ABOUT THAT TRAJECTORY, THEN. SO AT THE MOMENT ON CURRENT VACCINATION RATES, WE'RE SECOND TO LAST IN THE OECD. WILL NEW ZEALAND IMPROVE ITS PER-CAPITA RATE OF VACCINATIONS COMPARED TO THOSE OECD COUNTRIES? I WOULD` ACTUALLY, DO YOU KNOW WHAT REALLY MATTERS? IS THE RATE AT WHICH DEVELOPING COUNTRIES ARE BEING VACCINATED TOO. IT IS WRONG FOR US JUST TO SAY THAT THE POINT OF COMPARISON IS WHERE THE DEVELOPED WORLD IS. JACK, UNTIL ALL OF US ARE PART OF WIDESPREAD VACCINE PROGRAMMES, NO ONE IS SAFE, BECAUSE IF THERE IS COVID RIFE IN ANY COUNTRY, MUTATION OCCURS. THAT MEANS IT AFFECTS VACCINE EFFICACY. IT MEANS NO ONE IS SAFE, SO THOSE COMPARISONS ARE ALMOST MEANINGLESS. CAN YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION? I'M JUST INTERESTED` OH, SORRY. GO AHEAD. YEAH, NO, NO, NO. I JUST WANTED TO MAKE` IT WAS AN IMPORTANT POINT, SO, PLEASE, GO BACK TO` NO. OK, SO COMPARED TO OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE OECD... YUP. ...WILL OUR PER-CAPITA RATE OF VACCINATIONS IMPROVE? OR ARE WE GONNA BE SECOND TO LAST IN THE OECD` OF COURSE` ...TO COMPLETE OUR VACCINATIONS? WELL, OF COURSE, THE PER-CAPITA RATE, EVERYONE IS MOVING TO TRY AND GET THE MAJORITY OF THEIR POPULATION VACCINATED. BUT COMPARED TO OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE OECD, ARE WE GOING TO SECOND TO LAST THE WHOLE WAY THROUGH THIS VACCINATION PROCESS? OH, MY FOCUS HAS BEEN VACCINATING NEW ZEALANDERS AS QUICKLY AS PROB` I HAVEN'T SAT DOWN AND DONE THOSE COMPARISONS, JACK, SO I CAN'T ANSWER THAT FOR YOU. BUT MANY COUNTRIES WE'D COMPARE OURSELVES ` SO THE LIKES OF AUSTRALIA ` ARE LOOKING TO FINISH AT A FAIRLY SIMILAR TIME, SO WE WILL ABSOLUTELY COME UP. OF COURSE, WE'RE LOOKING TO MOVE FROM 10,000 A DAY TO 50,000 A DAY VACCINATED AT OUR PEAK, SO THOSE RATES OF COURSE WILL MOVE QUITE QUICKLY. I MEAN, YOUR OFFICIALS WERE THE ONES WHO PROMISED A WORLD-LEADING RESPONSE ON THIS. YUP. AND, OF COURSE, MANY PEOPLE HAVE CREDITED YOUR ABILITY TO KEEP COVID OUT OF THIS COUNTRY UP TO THIS POINT, BUT VACCINATION RATES ARE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT WHEN IT COMES TO REOPENING NEW ZEALAND'S BORDERS, WHEN IT COMES TO REBUILDING OUR ECONOMY OFF THE BACK OF THIS PANDEMIC. ONE THING THAT WOULD CLEAR A LOT OF THIS UP IS MORE DETAILED DATA WHEN IT COMES TO OUR VACCINATION PROGRESS IN THE FUTURE. WELL, THE FIRST THING I'D SAY, JACK, IS I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE FIRM CRITICISM IS. SO WE HAVE, UNLIKE OTHER COUNTRIES` WE'RE BEHIND RWANDA; WE'RE BEHIND MONGOLIA; WE'RE BEHIND SURINAME; WE'RE BEHIND URUGUAY. AND IN SOME CASES, THEY WILL BE USING MULTIPLE VACCINES COMING FROM DIFFERENT COUNTRIES` SECOND TO LAST IN THE OECD. ...AND WE HAVE AN APPROVED VACCINE. IN OTHER CASES, THEY WILL HAVE RIGHTLY RECEIVED ` EITHER FROM GAVI OR COVAX ` DONATED VACCINES, AND THAT IS AS IT SHOULD BE. OURS, IT'S NOT APPLES AND APPLES, BECAUSE, JACK, WE ` UNLIKE MANY OTHER COUNTRIES ` HAVE CHOSEN A SINGLE VACCINE AS OUR PRIMARY VACCINE. AND I THINK THAT WILL BE IN THE END A CHOICE THAT WE'LL BE PLEASED WITH, BUT IT DOES MEAN THAT OUR ROLL-OUT WILL BE DIFFERENT. BUT OUR SITUATION IS DIFFERENT. JACK, PEOPLE ARE NOT DYING DAILY HERE` AND THAT DOES MEAN THE EQUATION AND THE DELIVERY STATUS, THE AMOUNT WE RECEIVE AND WHEN WE RECEIVE IT WILL BE DIFFERENT. OK, SO WHY DON'T YOU PUBLISH THAT INFORMATION? WHY DON'T YOU SAY RIGHT DOWN TO THE NUMBER OF VACCINES WE EXPECT TO RECEIVE AT CERTAIN TIMES, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WE EXPECT TO VACCINATE AT CERTAIN TIMES? OH. COS THAT INFORMATION ISN'T AVAILABLE. WELL, WE HAVE, AS OF THIS WEEK, STARTED SHARING WITH YOU` THAT'S RETROSPECTIVE. IT'S NOT PROSPECTIVE. WE HAVE BEEN SHARING WITH YOU THE DASHBOARDS AROUND OUR PROGRESS. WE'VE ALSO BEEN INDICATING` BUT WE WANT THE FUTURE INFORMATION. BUT, JACK, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE BIGGEST IMMUNISATION CAMPAIGN THAT NEW ZEALAND HAS EVER RUN. WE ARE` AND YOU'VE HAD A YEAR TO ORGANISE. (CHUCKLES SOFTLY) SO WHY CAN'T WE GET FUTURE INFORMATION? WELL, IF WHAT YOU'RE ASKING IS, 'DO WE HAVE ENOUGH VACCINATION FOR THE ENTIRE COUNTRY RIGHT NOW?' THE ANSWER, OF COURSE, IS NO. THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M ASKING. AND THE MINISTER` I'M ASKING FOR DETAILED INFORMATION ABOUT WHEN THE VACCINES WILL ARRIVE IN THE COUNTRY` AND WE HAVE BEEN` ...AND EXACTLY HOW MANY VACCINES WE WILL DISTRIBUTING WEEK BY WEEK` IF I MAY` IF I MAY` ...FROM THIS POINT FORWARD. AND WE HAVE BEEN. WHAT YOU'RE CLAIMING` IF I MAY FINISH, JACK. WHAT YOU'RE CLAIMING IS THAT SOMEHOW WE HAVE A PRECISE INVENTORY FROM PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES OF THE PRECISE AMOUNT THAT WE WILL BE RECEIVING AND WHEN. WE DO NOT. THAT IS WHY WE HAVE MADE VERY BROAD SPECIFICATIONS AROUND WHEN WE ANTICIPATE BEING ABLE TO VACCINATE OUR DIFFERENT TIERS. WE HAVE INDICATED THAT FROM JULY, IT IS OUR VIEW THAT WE WILL HAVE SUFFICIENT VACCINE IN THE COUNTRY TO BEGIN OUR MASS ROLL-OUT. BUT AGAIN, WE ARE RELYING ON GENERAL DATA FROM THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES AROUND WHAT THEY BELIEVE THEY WILL BE ABLE TO DELIVER TO US. AND THAT, IN SOME CASES, IS WHY WE HAVEN'T ALWAYS BEEN ABLE TO GIVE THE LEVEL OF SPECIFICATION THAT YOU'VE BEEN LOOKING FOR. WILL`? DOES THAT MEAN THAT SOMEHOW OUR VACCINATION PROGRAMME IS WORSE THAN OTHER COUNTRIES? NO, IT DOES NOT. WILL NEW ZEALAND USE A NATIONWIDE IT BOOKING SYSTEM? YES, WE WILL, AND THAT SHOULD BE UP AND RUNNING BY MAY. TILL THEN, WE'VE BEEN USING THE EXISTING BOOKING SYSTEMS OF OTHER DHBS. NOT TO BE CONFUSED, THOUGH, BY OUR NATIONAL IMMUNISATION REGISTER, WHICH IS ALREADY UNDERWAY. THAT'S PRIME MINISTER JACINDA ARDERN. AFTER THE BREAK ` HOUSING. AT THE MEDIAN LEVEL, DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH YOUR HOUSE HAS INCREASED IN VALUE SINCE YOU TOOK OFFICE? UH... WELCOME BACK TO Q+A. THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS IS GIVING THE GREEN LIGHT FOR MILITARY EXPORTS TO COUNTRIES ACCUSED OF MAJOR HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS. A ONE NEWS INVESTIGATION BY BENEDICT COLLINS FOUND THE MINISTRY GRANTED APPROVAL FOR THE SALE OF MORTAR ACCESSORIES TO THE SAUDI ARABIAN MILITARY. I ASKED JACINDA ARDERN IF THE SALES ARE CONSISTENT WITH NEW ZEALAND VALUES. WELL, OF COURSE, IN THIS CASE, WE DON'T HAVE TO JUST RELY ON VALUES-BASED JUDGEMENTS. WE HAVE A REGULATORY REGIME, AND THAT DECISION-MAKING PROCESS ACTUALLY SITS WITH THE HEAD OF THE MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND TRADE. SO THAT'S WHERE ALL THOSE DECISIONS SIT. THAT'S WHERE THOSE JUDGEMENTS ARE MADE. THEY ARE REGULATED BY, FOR INSTANCE, END USE, SO WHATEVER THE PRODUCTS MAY BE USED FOR. SO IT'S NOT A CASE THAT IT'S A BLANKET BAN THAT FOR ANY PARTICULAR MILITARY PRODUCT, IT JUST CANNOT BE EXPORTED. IT IS A QUESTION OF END USE AND ALSO WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE ANY UN RESOLUTIONS THAT WOULD PROHIBIT EXPORT. SO AS A FORMER NOMINEE FOR THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE, ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH NEW ZEALAND-LISTED COMPANIES SELLING MORTAR` NO ONE IS` ...MORTAR CONTROL SYSTEMS TO FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS? NO ONE IS EVER FORMALLY RELEASED AS A NOMINEE. THAT'S PURE SPECULATION. OK. BUT AS A NEW ZEALANDER, I WOULD SAY MY EXPECTATION ` AND AS A NEW ZEALANDER GROUNDED WITH STRONG VALUES IN HUMAN RIGHTS, AS OUR NATION IS ` MY EXPECTATION IS THAT THE MINISTRY PAYS HEED TO THE REGULATION THAT THEY ARE REQUIRED TO AND THAT THEY MAKE SURE THEY APPLY ALL UN RESOLUTIONS APPROPRIATELY. OK. DOES IT PASS THE SNIFF TEST ` SELLING MORTAR CONTROL SYSTEMS TO THE SAUDI ARABIAN GOVERNMENT? AGAIN, YOU'RE ASKING ME FOR DECISIONS THAT SIMPLY HAVE NOT BEEN PUT IN FRONT OF ME OR DECISIONS THAT I SIMPLY HAVE NOT MADE. YOU'VE SEEN THE INFORMATION I'VE SEEN. I HAVE NOT, ACTUALLY. I'VE HAD SOMEONE BRIEFLY OVER THE PHONE TRY AND GIVE ME A HEADS-UP BEFORE THIS INTERVIEW. I'LL BE HAPPY TO GO BACK AND LOOK AT THEM. BUT ONE THING THAT WE HAVE DONE, OF COURSE, IS IN RECENT TIMES WE'VE SAID WE NEED TO GO BACK AND JUST CHECK THAT THIS REGIME WE HAVE, WHICH WE'RE ASKED TO APPLY, IS FIT FOR PURPOSE. AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT WE HAVE ASKED THE MINISTRY TO DO. WHO'S THE REVIEWER? I WOULD NEED TO GO AND CHECK HOW THAT'S BEING UNDERTAKEN, BUT I THINK IT'S ONLY FAIR AFTER WHAT WE RECENTLY EXPERIENCED WITH AIR NEW ZEALAND, THAT WE GIVE PEOPLE CONFIDENCE THAT WHAT WE'RE DOING IS RIGHT. SO THAT WAS TWO MONTHS AGO. HAS A REVIEWER BEEN APPOINTED? I BELIEVE IT WAS THERE OR THEREABOUTS, AND THEY MAY HAVE BEEN APPOINTED AT THIS STAGE. AND LOOK, IF YOU` I CAN ABSOLUTELY PROVIDE YOU THAT DETAIL AFTER, BUT IT'S A COMMITMENT WE GAVE AND THAT WE'LL SIT WITH` THAT WE STAND BY. IT SEEMS, GIVEN YOUR... GIVEN YOU'RE UPSET AT THE AT THE AIR NEW ZEALAND REVELATIONS, IT WILL SEEM SURPRISING TO SOME THAT YOU HAVEN'T TAKEN A CLOSER LOOK, PERSONALLY, AT THE DEALS THAT NEW ZEALAND COMPANIES ARE DOING WITH FOREIGN MILITARIES. AND I AM AWARE OF SOME. BUT YOU'RE ASKING ME TO REFER TO THREE YEARS' WORTH OF DECISIONS, NOT ALL OF WHICH WILL HAVE COME BACK THROUGH ME. WHAT I WANTED THEM TO DO WAS LOOK AT WHETHER OR NOT THE REGIME PROSPECTIVELY, GOING FORWARD, IS SOMETHING THAT WE CAN, HAND ON HEART, SAY WE BELIEVE IS MEETING OUR VALUES AND EXPECTATIONS. DOES IT MEET YOUR VALUES AND EXPECTATIONS TO HAVE A NEW ZEALAND COMPANY SELLING MORTAR CONTROL SYSTEMS TO FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS? AND I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU AN ANSWER ON SOMETHING THAT I CANNOT, YOU KNOW, IN FULL CONSCIOUS, SAY WITHOUT HAVING ALL THE INFORMATION IN FRONT OF ME, BECAUSE, JACK, OUR REGULATIONS DOESN'T SAY IF YOU PRODUCE ANYTHING THAT MAY BE USED BY THE MILITARY, IT CANNOT BE EXPORTED. THAT'S NOT WHAT THE RULES SAY. THIS ISN'T A COMPUTER PROGRAMME. IT'S A MORTAR CONTROL SYSTEM. YES, BUT THERE IS NOT A` THERE IS NO BLANKET BAN ON THE PRODUCTION OF ANYTHING LIKE THAT IN NEW ZEALAND. IT'S ALL ABOUT END USE ` WHO IT'S USED BY, FOR WHAT PURPOSE` SO WHAT WOULD YOU USE A MORTAR CONTROL SYSTEM FOR? THIS` AS I SAY, THIS IS WHAT THE REGULATIONS SAY. SO, LITERALLY, IT IS ABOUT THE END-USE ` WHETHER OR NOT IT'S IN BREACH OF OUR EXPECTATIONS BASED ON UN RESOLUTION OR IN BREACH OF ANY HUMANITARIAN GUIDELINES. NOW, NEW ZEALAND HAS A MILITARY OURSELVES. OF COURSE, WE PURCHASE MILITARY EQUIPMENT. SO WE'RE NOT SO, I THINK, INCLINED TO SAY THAT THE FACT THAT PEOPLE PURCHASE THESE ITEMS IS IN QUESTION IT'S HOW THEY ARE USED AND WHO THEY ARE USED BY. HOUSING ` WHAT WILL THE HOUSING CHANGES YOU'VE ANNOUNCED DO TO HOUSE PRICES? WELL, WHAT WE'RE HOPING FOR IS, OF COURSE, TO TAKE THE EXPONENTIAL INCREASES OUT OF THE MARKET THAT WE'VE SEEN, I MEAN, IN THE PAST YEAR, UPWARDS OF 20%. I DON'T THINK ANYONE BELIEVES THAT THAT IS GOOD FOR NEW ZEALAND'S ECONOMY. IT IS CERTAINLY NOT GOOD FOR OUR FIRST-HOME BUYERS AND CREATES POTENTIALLY A BUBBLE THAT'S DAMAGING FOR ALL. DO YOU HAVE ADVICE TO THAT EFFECT? THERE'S A RANGE OF PREDICTIONS, AND YOU'LL SEE EVERYTHING FROM BANK ECONOMISTS MAKING THEIR ASSUMPTIONS AROUND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO TREASURY ASSUMPTIONS` WHAT'S THE ADVICE YOU RECEIVED? THAT IT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE, THE QUANTUM OF WHICH IS VERY DIFFICULT TO PINPOINT. WHO SAID IT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE? WELL, DEPENDING ON WHO YOU ASK, OF COURSE, BUT TREASURY ARE OF THE VIEW THAT IT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE. THEY SUPPORTED THE IDEA OF AN EXTENSION OF THE BRIGHT LINE TEST. WE DIDN'T GO AS FAR AS THEY'D LIKE, BUT THERE IS A VIEW THAT AN IMPACT WOULD BE HAD. WHAT ABOUT THE CHANGES TO INTEREST DEDUCTIBILITY? AGAIN, DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS, DIFFERENT VIEWS. IRD, DIFFERENT VIEW TO THE MINISTRY FOR HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT, DIFFERENT TO TREASURY. THAT'S WHY, JACK` SO WHICH DEPARTMENT ADVISED YOU IT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE? THAT IS WHY WE` ULTIMATELY, THE BUCK STOPS WITH US. WE HAVE TO USE OUR JUDGEMENT AND WHAT WE BELIEVE WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE. IS IT RESPONSIBLE FOR A GOVERNMENT TO MAKE DECISIONS OF THAT MAGNITUDE WITHOUT ADVICE SUPPORTING? WE DO HAVE ADVICE. SO WHICH ADVICE SUPPORTS THE CHANGES TO INTEREST DEDUCTIBILITY? SOME OF IT IS CONTESTABLE, IS WHAT I'M SAYING. NOT ALL DEPARTMENTS VIEWED IT IN THE SAME WAY. IT IS IRRESPONSIBLE, I WOULD ARGUE, NOT TO TAKE ACTION WHEN YOU ARE FACED WITH SOMETHING AS EXPONENTIAL AS A 20% INCREASE IN HOUSE PRICES. YOU WILL HAVE ALSO SEEN THAT THERE ARE` SO WHY DIDN'T YOU ACT BEFOREHAND, THEN? YOU'RE ALSO` BEFORE COVID, HOUSE PRICES ` SORRY TO INTERRUPT ` INCREASED 26% UNDER YOUR WATCH. SO WHY DIDN'T YOU ACT THEN IF THE 20% IS OF CONCERN? WE DID. WE TOOK ACTION LIKE MOVING ON FOREIGN BUYERS. WE TOOK ACTION AROUND INCREASING THE AMOUNT OF PUBLIC HOUSING SUPPLY. INTEREST DEDUCTIBILITY? WE DID. WE DID TAKE ACTION ON CLOSING TAX LOOPHOLES. THAT WAS NOT ONE OF THEM. OF COURSE, WE HAVE NOW MOVED ON IT. WE ARE IN THE POSITION WHERE WE HAD THE SUPPORT FROM THE ENTIRETY OF GOVERNMENT AND MINISTERS TO DO IT, AND WE HAVE. AT THE MEDIAN LEVEL, DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH YOUR HOUSE HAS INCREASED IN VALUE SINCE YOU TOOK OFFICE? I'VE, OF COURSE, MOVED IN THAT PERIOD OF TIME. BUT I CAN TELL YOU FROM MY NEIGHBOURHOOD, JACK, BECAUSE LET'S BE FAIR ` IT'S ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN AUCKLAND. I CAN TELL YOU THAT A SALE ACROSS THE ROAD ONLY FURTHER REINFORCED FOR ME WHY WE NEEDED TO ACT. THE INCREASES WE'VE SEEN, BE IT FROM MY HOUSE, THE HOUSE IN MY NEIGHBOURHOOD OR IN AUCKLAND GENERALLY ARE WRONG. IT'S UNSUSTAINABLE. 430,000, SINCE YOU BOUGHT THAT HOUSE. YOU HAD BEEN PRIME MINISTER FOR MONTHS AT THAT STAGE. THAT'S HOW MUCH IT'S INCREASED IN VALUE. AND AGAIN, WHETHER OR NOT IT'S MINE OR MY NEIGHBOURS OR ANYONE ELSE'S, I DON'T AGREE THAT THAT IS SUSTAINABLE OR RIGHT IN A FAIR-MINDED COUNTRY THAT WANTS PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO` FIRST-HOME BUYERS TO PURCHASE. AND CLEARLY A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD AGREE WITH YOU. THERE'S NO NEED FOR US TO HAVE TO ANALYSE MY HOUSE FOR ME TO KNOW THAT. I MEAN, IT'S EXTRAORDINARY, ISN'T IT, THAT YOUR HOUSE HAS INCREASED IN VALUE MORE THAN $100,000 A YEAR SINCE YOU BOUGHT IT. AND NO ONE WOULD THINK THAT IS RIGHT, INCLUDING ME. SO WHAT'S AN AFFORDABLE HOUSE? ON AN INDEX OF HOUSE VALUE TO THE AVERAGE MEDIAN HOUSEHOLD INCOME, WHAT IS AN AFFORDABLE HOUSE? THE TECHNICAL DESCRIPTION IS 30% OF YOUR INCOME AT ANY GIVEN TIME. AND FOR MOST PEOPLE, WHAT THEY'RE SEEING IN THE HOUSING MARKET OUTSTRIPS THAT. FOR MANY OF OUR... PARTICULARLY OUR RENTERS, THEY ARE EXPERIENCING, YOU KNOW, INCREASINGLY AN ENVIRONMENT THAT IS DIFFICULT FOR THEM. SO HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE IF NEW ZEALAND WAGES INCREASE AT, SAY, 4% A YEAR FOR` IF YOU ACHIEVE THIS MODERATE, SUSTAINED MODERATION, WHICH IS WHAT YOU WANT, HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE UNTIL HOUSES IN NEW ZEALAND ARE AFFORDABLE? IF HOUSE PRICES CONTINUED AT 20% PER YEAR, WE WOULD CONSTANTLY BE CHASING OUR TAIL, WHICH IS WHY WE MOVED IN THE WAY WE DID. BUT` SO HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE? IF IT DOESN'T` NO, THAT'S MY QUESTION, SORRY. IF YOU ACHIEVE THIS PERIOD OF SUSTAINED MODERATION, HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE UNTIL HOUSES ARE AFFORDABLE IN NEW ZEALAND? MY VIEW IS THAT WE... AND IT DEPENDS WHERE YOU ARE IN THE COUNTRY. IT DEPENDS WHAT'S HAPPENING TO WAGE GROWTH. AT THE MEDIAN LEVEL, NEW ZEALAND'S 8:1. AUCKLAND'S 11:1. CAN WE COME BACK TO THE FIRST PRINCIPLES HERE? IF YOU'RE ASKING ME, 'IS IT RIGHT WHAT'S HAPPENED IN NEW ZEALAND'S 'HOUSING MARKET?' MY ANSWER IS NO. THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M ASKING. I'M ASKING HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE UNTIL HOUSES ARE AFFORDABLE IN NEW ZEALAND, PRIME MINISTER. IF YOU'RE ASKING ME WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE'S INCOMES NEED TO CONTINUE TO GROW AND FOR US TO IMPROVE HOUSING AFFORDABILITY BY MAKING SURE THAT WE ARE CLOSING THAT GAP, I WILL AGREE WITH YOU. WHAT WE CAN CONTEST IS WHETHER OR NOT WHAT I'M DOING IS, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, ENOUGH NOW ABOUT HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE. NOW, SOME HAVE ARGUED` NO, I'M JUST ASKING HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE. SOME HAVE ARGUED... AND NO ONE, I THINK, AT THIS POINT, WILL BE ABLE TO ANSWER THAT AT THIS POINT, BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IMPACT THESE CHANGES WILL YET HAVE ON HOUSE PRICE GROWTH. BUT OUR VIEW IS IT WILL HAVE AN IMPACT. LET'S TALK ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH. YOU WERE ELECTED ON BIG PROMISES TO IMPROVE MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES IN NEW ZEALAND. THE MENTAL HEALTH COMMISSION FOUNDATION SAID TO STAFF THIS WEEK ` THE ANECDOTAL REPORTS WE GET FREQUENTLY ARE THAT THINGS ARE GETTING WORSE AND MENTAL HEALTH NOT BETTER. WHERE IS THE CHANGE YOU PROMISED? THE CHANGE THAT WE PROMISED WAS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE WERE NOT ONLY JUST CONTINUING TO INVEST IN SIGNIFICANT SERVICE THAT WE HAVE ALREADY, BUT THAT WE WERE FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGING THE WAY THAT WE DEAL WITH MENTAL HEALTH IN NEW ZEALAND. AT THE MOMENT, THE FOCUS TENDS TO BE ON ACUTE CARE. OUR VIEW WAS THAT WE NEEDED TO INVEST MORE IN ADDICTION AND TREATMENT SERVICES TO ADDRESS CAUSES OR CONTRIBUTING FACTORS WITH INVESTMENT IN THE LIKES OF FAMILY VIOLENCE AND HARM, HOMELESSNESS, AND THAT WE NEEDED TO PROVIDE SERVICE AT THE BEGINNING OF DISTRESS, NOT AT THE END. THAT'S WHY WE CREATED AN ADDITION TO OUR SERVICE, WHICH IS PRIMARY MENTAL HEALTH CARE. WHAT WE WANT TO ENSURE IS THAT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, OVER A PERIOD OF FIVE YEARS, WE BUILD A SERVICE THAT MEANS IF YOU GO INTO YOUR GP AND THEY IDENTIFY THAT YOU ARE IN DISTRESS AND THAT YOU NEED MENTAL HEALTH CARE AND SUPPORT, THEY CAN PROVIDE IT WITHIN THAT SERVICE IN THAT MOMENT. WITH ALMOST UP TO A MILLION NEW ZEALANDERS BEING ABLE TO ACCESS THAT SERVICE, 9000 HAVE ALREADY RECEIVED THAT FORM OF CARE. WE CONTINUE TO ROLL IT OUT, BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THAT IS MAKING A DIFFERENCE. THERE IS STILL MORE TO DO, THOUGH. MENTAL HEALTH FOUNDATION DISAGREES. THIS IS A QUOTE FROM THE HEAD OF MENTAL HEALTH` I MEAN, THIS IS NOT A CRACKPOT ORGANISATION. THIS IS THE MENTAL HEALTH FOUNDATION. 'IT'S AN INDICATOR OF A MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM THAT REMAINS 'IN CRISIS, IF NOT IN WORSE CRISIS THAN IT WAS FOUR YEARS AGO.' AND I KNOW SEAN, AND LOOK` WHEN YOU THINK BACK TO THE PROMISES YOU MADE ON THIS FRONT, THAT IS A DAMNING ASSESSMENT, PRIME MINISTER. DO YOU KNOW, IT IS ALSO... WHILST IT IS ABSOLUTELY UP TO THE PREROGATIVE OF ANY ADVOCATE WITHIN A SERVICE TO SHARE THEIR PERSPECTIVE, I WILL STILL SHARE MINE. YOU CANNOT TELL ME THAT $1.9b OF INVESTMENT ACROSS THOSE AREAS I'VE JUST NAMED, INCLUDING THE BUILDING OF AN ENTIRE NEW SERVICE, WILL NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE. BUT WE ALL ACKNOWLEDGE WE ARE PLAYING CATCH-UP. WE DID HAVE SIGNIFICANT UNDERINVESTMENT, AND WE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH GOING INTO THOSE EARLY CAUSES OF TRAUMA. SO IT WILL NOT HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. ARE BENEFITS AT THEIR CURRENT LEVELS HIGH ENOUGH FOR ALL NEW ZEALANDERS TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY? NO. HOW HIGH DO THEY NEED TO GO? WELL, OF COURSE, DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES ON THAT. WE USED THE OPPORTUNITY WITH COVID TO MAKE SURE THAT WE WERE ADDRESSING NEEDS AS QUICKLY AS WE COULD. SORRY, I KNOW WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. WHAT'S YOUR PERSPECTIVE? HOW HIGH DO THEY NEED TO GO? OH, AGAIN, THESE ARE SUBJECTIVE JUDGEMENTS. I DON'T THINK` YOU'RE THE PRIME MINISTER. YES, I AM. BUT WHETHER OR NOT JUST GIVING A DOLLAR FIGURE, IT DEPENDS, AGAIN, HOW MANY CHILDREN YOU ARE CARING FOR, WHERE YOU LIVE IN THE COUNTRY. GIVE US A PERCENTAGE, THEN. JACK, I'M JUST NOT GOING TO DO THAT. BUT WHAT I WILL SAY IS WE USE THE WELFARE EXPERT ADVISORY GROUP TO GIVE US A STARTING POINT. THEY'VE GIVEN US THEIR GUIDANCE. WE'VE ALWAYS SAID WE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE IT STRAIGHT AWAY. BUT IN SOME CASES, SOLE PARENTS, IN PARTICULAR, WE ALREADY HAVE. YOU'VE INCREASED CORE BENEFITS ` $25 A WEEK AS A RESULT OF COVID-19. YOU'VE ALSO INDEXED THEM TO WAGES. WE HAVE. BUT THE WEAG REPORT THAT WAS RELEASED MORE THAN TWO YEARS AGO RECOMMENDED YOU INCREASE CORE BENEFITS MUCH MORE. WHY HAVEN'T YOU ACTED ON THAT FRONT? YOU ALSO FORGOT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE WINTER ENERGY PAYMENT. WE ALSO BROUGHT IN A PAYMENT FOR CHILDREN AGED 1 TO 3 WHO ARE ON LOW INCOMES OF $60 A WEEK PER CHILD. AND OF COURSE, DURING COVID, WE INCREASED THE WINTER ENERGY PAYMENT. NOW, ALL OF THAT COMBINED AND OUR FAMILY TAX CREDIT CHANGES MEANS THAT ACTUALLY, FOR THE MOST PART, FOR SOLE PARENTS, WE'VE ACTUALLY REALLY ALMOST REACHED WHERE WE SAID WE SHOULD GO. AND YOU JUST SAID TO ME IT'S NOT ENOUGH FOR NEW ZEALANDERS TO LIVE WITH DIGNITY. YOUR PROMISE IN THE 2020 LABOUR ELECTION MANIFESTO ` MODERNISING OUR WELFARE SYSTEM SO ALL NEW ZEALANDERS CAN LIVE WITH DIGNITY. I AM GOING TO MAKE A POINT OF DIFFERENTIATION HERE. I'M ALSO THE MINISTER FOR CHILD POVERTY. AND SO WE HAVE UNASHAMEDLY FOCUSED ON FAMILIES WITH CHILDREN. AND SO WE HAVE SEEN A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE. ON SOME CASES, IT WOULD BE, ON AVERAGE, AS HIGH AS $100 PER WEEK ` PER WEEK ` FOR A FAMILY. THAT IS A BIG CHANGE. NO GOVERNMENT HAS CHANGED BENEFIT RATES IN THAT WAY, IN THAT AMOUNT FOR DECADES. AND THAT HAS BEEN BECAUSE WE ACKNOWLEDGED THE INADEQUACY. AGAIN, THOUGH, PEOPLE ON THE FRONT LINE SAY IT'S NOT ENOUGH. YOU'VE RECEIVED AN OPEN LETTER FROM 75 ORGANISATIONS, SAYING, 'PLEASE, PRIME MINISTER, INCREASE BENEFITS.' NEXT MONTH IS THE THIRD BUDGET ` THE THIRD BUDGET SINCE THE WEAG REPORT WAS RELEASED. WILL YOU INCREASE CORE BENEFITS? I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE ANY ANNOUNCEMENTS AT ALL ABOUT OUR BUDGET IN THIS MOMENT IN TIME. BUT WHAT WE HAVE ALL, AS MINISTERS, ACKNOWLEDGED IS THAT THERE IS MORE WORK TO DO THERE. BUT I HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE SURE THAT WHATEVER WE DO IS SUSTAINABLE. I REMEMBER THE 1990S. WE HAVE BEEN PLAYING CATCH-UP ON THOSE CUTS FOR DECADES. WHATEVER WE DO, I WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT STICKS, THAT WE GROW FROM THERE, AND INDEXATION HELPS WITH THAT, RATHER THAN SEE CHANGES IN POLITICAL CYCLES THAT MEAN WE GO BACKWARDS. FINALLY, THEN, A COUPLE OF PERSONAL QUESTIONS. DO YOU HAVE CONTACT WITH WINSTON PETERS? I THINK WE SPOKE A WHILE, PRE-WAITANGI, SO IT HAS BEEN A LITTLE WHILE SINCE WE SPOKE. WE HAVE CERTAINLY SPOKEN SINCE HE HAS LEFT PARLIAMENT, THOUGH. WHAT'S YOUR RELATIONSHIP LIKE NOW? GOOD. I THINK OURS WILL BE A RELATIONSHIP THAT IS ALWAYS BUILT ON RESPECT. WE WENT THROUGH A TOUGH PERIOD IN NEW ZEALAND'S HISTORY TOGETHER, AND I WILL ALWAYS REFLECT ON THAT WITH APPRECIATION THAT A ` HE GAVE ME THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE PRIME MINISTER BUT B ` THAT WE WORKED SO WELL TOGETHER THROUGH THAT TOUGH PERIOD. AND FINALLY, KIRI ALLAN. I KNOW YOU'VE KNOWN KIRI FOR YEARS IN A PERSONAL AND PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIP. ALL THE PROFESSIONAL STUFF ASIDE, ALL THE WORK STUFF ASIDE, HOW DOES SOMETHING LIKE KIRI'S NEWS AFFECT YOU? OH, IN A VERY HUMAN WAY ` JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE WOULD BE AFFECTED IF A FRIEND HAD A DIAGNOSIS LIKE THAT. DOES IT GIVE YOU PERSPECTIVE ON STUFF? I GUESS MY ANSWER WOULD BE OF COURSE (CHUCKLES SOFTLY) BECAUSE SHE IS YOUNG, YOUNGER THAN ME. SHE IS SO ENERGETIC, AND SHE HAS SO MUCH TO OFFER US. BUT SHE WILL STILL OFFER US THAT. WE ARE GOING TO SUPPORT HER UNTIL SHE IS READY TO COME BACK. I'M SURE EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOU ON THAT. PRIME MINISTER JACINDA ARDERN, AND THAT INTERVIEW WAS RECORDED SHORTLY BEFORE NEWS OF PRINCE PHILIP'S DEATH. LET US KNOW YOUR THOUGHTS ON TWITTER OR FACEBOOK OR EMAIL US ` Q+A@TVNZ.CO.NZ. THE PANEL'S AFTER THE BREAK. AND LATER ` WELLINGTON'S WATERGATE. ARE THE CAPITAL'S WATER WOES FIXABLE AND HOW WORRIED SHOULD OTHER CITIES AND TOWNS BE ABOUT THEIR VITAL INFRASTRUCTURE? HOKI MAI. WELCOME BACK AND WELCOME TO TODAY'S PANEL ` NZME'S HEAD OF BUSINESS FRAN O'SULLIVAN, ECONOMIC COMMENTATOR BERNARD HICKEY, AND ACADEMIC AND WRITER EMMALINE PICKERING-MARTIN, WHO'S A TEACHING FELLOW AT THE UNIVERSITY OF AUCKLAND. KIA ORA KOUTOU. FRAN, I WILL START WITH YOU AND COVID-19. IS IT THE RIGHT DECISION TO BAN TRAVEL FROM INDIA? YES. I THINK IT IS. THE LEVEL OF NEW VARIANTS AND INFECTION COMING INTO NEW ZEALAND, I THINK THEY HAVE TO GET ON TOP OF IT. I THINK THIS GIVES. TO DO IT. I WOULD SAY THAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. I DON'T THINK IT IS RACIST. I DON'T THINK IT IS ANALOGOUS WITH WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE UNITED STATES WHERE THEY ARE ROLLING OUT BACK THE NATION NOW. ALSO WE ARE NOT SEEING THE LEVEL OF INFECTION COMING FROM THERE. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE EXPLOSION THE NUMBERS OF CASES AND DEATHS IN INDIA COMPARED TO OTHER PLACES WHERE WE ARE GETTING OTHER PEOPLE THROUGH, IT IS MUCH, MUCH HIGHER. IT IS NOT A MARGIN CALL. I THINK IT COULD BE A COLD CALL. I JUST WONDER AROUND IF WE ARE THINKING AROUND HOW THAT PLACES SMALLER COMMUNITIES, MIGRANT COMMUNITIES AND WHAT IT FEELS LIKE FOR THEM. SURE, THE NUMBERS ARE BIG, BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE BIG NUMBERS OF COVID-19 EARLIER, THEY WERE COMING FROM MANY PLACES AND WE DIDN'T STOP THAT TRAVEL. WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO COMMUNITIES? WHEN I WAS ASKING FOR SOME OF THE DETAILED DATA FOR THE ROLLOUT OF THE COVID-19 VACCINATION, THIS SEEMS TO BE RESISTANCE FROM THE GOVERNMENT FROM THAT AT THE MOMENT. WE ALL APPRECIATE THAT YOU ARE SOMEWHAT AT THE MERCY OF THE VACCINE SUPPLIERS. DO YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT THE SPEED OF THE ROLLOUT? ABSOLUTELY. WHAT IS IT DOING FOR OUR PACIFIC COMMUNITIES, SPECIFICALLY, ESPECIALLY WITH THE AIRPORT BEING IN MANGERE. WHAT IS IT DOING FOR OUR MENTAL HEALTH WAITING FOR THAT INFORMATION AND THE TIMING AND OUR FAMILY IS GOING TO WORK AND COMING BACK AND SOMETIMES HAVING TO ISOLATE FROM US OURSELVES. THE GHOST OF KIWIBUILD HANGS HEAVY OVER THIS GOVERNMENT. THEY SET A HARD TARGET, AND THEY FAILED TO MAKE IT. THE SAME WITH THE LIGHT RAIL PROJECT. THERE WERE GOING TO BE SHUFFLES ON THE GROUND, AND THEN THERE WEREN'T. THEY ARE WARY OF SETTING TARGETS AND FAILING TO MEET THEM. THE BEST THING IS NOT TO SET THE TARGETS. AUSTRALIA, FOR EXAMPLE, AND CERTAINLY IN EUROPE, TARGETS WERE SET AND NOT MET. BUT WE HAVE MORE THAN 1/4 OF A MILLION DOSES SITTING AROUND IN A WAREHOUSE, HOPEFULLY REFRIGERATED SOMEWHERE. (CHUCKLES) THAT SHOULD BE ROLLED OUT AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. THE GOVERNMENT SAYS WE WILL HAVE TO SCALE UP THE CENTRES AND IN SCALED DOWN AGAIN AS WE WON'T HAVE THE BIG DOSES UNTIL THE SECOND HALF OF THE YEAR, BUT THESE THINGS ALWAYS TAKE LONGER THAN YOU EXPECT. THE MERE IDEA THAT THERE IS A BUDGET BUNCH OF THOSE DOSES SITTING THERE AND WE ARE ALREADY SLIGHTLY BEHIND THE TARGETS THEY HAVE BEEN SET INTERNALLY THAT WE HEAR ABOUT OCCASIONALLY, THAT IS A CONCERN, PARTICULARLY WHEN YOU WANT THE CONFIDENCE OF THE PUBLIC IN THE SECOND HALF OF THE YEAR WE NEED TO GET THOSE VACCINATION RATES UP OVER 70%. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD ` WILL PROBLEMS GETTING ABOVE 60% AND 70% BECAUSE OF MASS INFORMATION. IS THE KIND OF THING THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY HAS BEEN ASKING FOR. PEOPLE NEED TO PLAN, AND THEY NEED TO HAVE A TRAJECTORY. EVEN IF THINGS SHIFT AROUND AND THERE IS A REASON, THAT SHOULD BE EXPLAINED. IF THERE IS A HECK UP IN THE DISTRIBUTION OF GLOBAL VACCINES. THE QUESTIONS I WOULD HAVE ARE WE PAYING THE RIGHT PRICE? OTHER NATIONS FLEXED THEIR PRICE UP TO GET AHEAD OF THE QUEUE. WHY HAVEN'T WE CONSIDERED DOING SOMETHING LIKE AS WELL WHERE THEY SWAPPED ANONYMIZED DATA BACK TO PFIZER. AND THERE ARE SHIFTS IN THE VARIANCE. A LOT MORE INFORMATION SHOULD BE ON THE TABLE. I HAVE A LOT OF CONFIDENCE IN THE GOVERNMENT SORTING OUT GREAT LOGISTICS. WAS SEEN AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PANDEMIC. HOW IS THIS GOING TO BE PULLED TOGETHER? WE AS A TEAM ACTUALLY DOING THIS? I THINK THEY NEED TO PUT MORE INFORMATION ON THE TABLE TO GIVE US CONFIDENCE SO THAT WE, FOR INSTANCE, IF WE WANT TO TRAVEL LATER OR DO BUSINESS OR SEE FAMILY, WE WILL KNOW WHEN WE WILL ROUGHLY BE VACCINATED. THE RESTRUCTURING OF THE DHBs IS GOING ON AS WELL. WE NEED A CENTRALISED, ORGANISED A SINGLE BODY BOWLING THINGS OUT, WHICH WE DON'T REALLY HAVE. WE DISCOVERED AN LAST YEAR THAT THAT FRACTURED SYSTEM ISN'T WORKING. IT'S A PITY THAT THIS IS ALL HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME WHILE THE GOVERNMENT IS TRYING TO RESTRUCTURE THE DHBs. PAYMENT NECESSITY THERE MAY BE SOME COUNTRIES THAT SIGNED THE VACCINE DEALS AFTER NEW ZEALAND THAT WILL RECEIVE THEIR VACCINES BEFORE NEW ZEALAND. WILL THAT BE ACCEPTABLE TO THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC? I DON'T THINK IT WILL BE. SHE GOES INTO THIS GREAT WAFFLE ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING AND ELSEWHERE IN THE WORLD. THIS IS HER COUNTRY THAT SHE HAS GOT TO STICK UP FOR. SHE HAS TO DELIVER TO HER CITIZENS REASONABLE EXPECTATIONS FOR WHEN PEOPLE MIGHT BE VACCINATED. SOUTH AUCKLAND IS AN ISSUE. THE NORTH IS AN ISSUE. PEOPLE WITH VARIOUS COMORBIDITIES IS AN ISSUE. PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW THAT THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN AND WHERE IT WILL HAPPEN. EVERYTHING HAS BECOME TOO MUCH HELLS TO THE CHEST AND NOT TELLING US ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON. IN THE BUSINESS SECTOR, WE DON'T HAVE PRIME MINISTERS BUSINESS ADVISORY COUNCIL ANYMORE. THE PRIME MINISTER REACHES OUT TO INDIVIDUALS. WE DON'T KNOW WHO THEY ARE. WE ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE ARE ALMOST. GO TOE TO TOE WITH GOVERNMENT TO PUSH GOVERNMENT TO PUT INFORMATION ON THE TABLE. WITHOUT THAT INFORMATION GOING FORWARD, WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO EDUCATE OUR COMMUNITIES EITHER. WE NEED TO HAVE A CLEAR IDEA OF WHERE WE ARE GOING. WE KNOW THAT MAORI AND PACIFIC PEOPLE HAVE AN INHERENT MISTRUST OF THE MEDICAL SYSTEM. MAYBE WE COULD GET PEOPLE INTO THE COMMUNITY IS SAYING, THIS IS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. WE CAN EDUCATE BETTER, AND THEN WE WILL HAVE A BETTER UPTAKE. THE PAYMENT IS DEAD LAYOUTS EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE NEXT TWO OR THREE DAYS AT THE BEGINNING OF COVID-19. THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY AND THE UNIONS AND A LOT OF PEOPLE GOT BEHIND HER. MAYBE SHE SHOULD TRUST THAT POINT. IT REQUIRES A DEGREE OF MATURITY ON BOTH SIDES. IF WE ARE DEMANDING MORE CERTAINTY ABOUT WHEN VACCINES ARE ARRIVING AND BEING DISTRIBUTED, WE PROBABLY NEED TO ACCEPT THAT THESE ARE UNPRECEDENTED TIMES AND THERE COULD BE HOLD-UPS IN THE SUPPLY. I WANT TO ASK ABOUT OTHER ISSUES` HOUSING, MENTAL HEALTH, POVERTY. THE WAY I SEE IT, THOSE ARE THE BIG ISSUES THAT JACINDA ARDERN WAS ELECTED AS FOR THREE 1/2 YEARS AGO. AS A GOVERNMENT ACTING WITH THE URGENCY THAT IS REQUIRED? ABSOLUTELY NOT. THEY AREN'T. WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE ALL INTERCONNECTED. THE PROBLEM IS THAT IT ISN'T FAST ENOUGH PEOPLE FACING THE ISSUES. SURE, THEY HAVE THE WRAPAROUND PACKAGE THAT HAS WORKING FOR FAMILIES AND ALL THESE OTHER THINGS, BUT WHAT THAT IS NOT MATCHING AS THE HOUSING PRICE RAISE. THAT DOESN'T HELP KIDS GET TO SCHOOL ON TIME. IT DOESN'T HELP THEM HAVE POWER WORKING THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE WEEK. AT THE PARENTS ARE PAYING ALL THEIR MONEY ON RENT AND IN GOING TO FOOD BANKS TO GET FOOD, WHAT KIND OF SYSTEM ARE WE CREATING? IT'S NOT FAST ENOUGH AT ALL. THE PRIME MINISTER IN THE GOVERNMENT HAVE MADE CHOICES AND TO NOT SPEED IT UP. THE ARGUMENT WOULD BE, WE CAN'T AFFORD TO DO THINGS THIS QUICKLY. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT TRUE. DOESN'T THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS, AMERICA HAS GONE OUT OF ITS WAY TO HALVE CHILD POVERTY ALMOST IMMEDIATELY BY SIMPLY INCREASING INCOMES FOR THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE AT THE POOREST LEVEL. NEW ZEALAND HAS VERY LOW NET DEBT, BUT THE GOVERNMENT IS CHOOSING, THE PRIME MINISTER IS CHOOSING NOT TO INCREASE BENEFITS IN THE WAY IT WAS RECOMMENDED BY THE WELFARE ADVISORY GROUP. SHE IS CHOOSING NOT TO DO IT NOW BECAUSE SHE IS CONCERNED IT WILL INCREASE DEBT A LITTLE BIT, WHICH NO ONE IN THE FINANCIAL MARKETS IS WORRIED ABOUT AND ALL OUR OTHER PEERS IN THE WORLD ARE SAYING THIS IS NOT AN ISSUE. SHE IS CHOOSING TO KEEP IT LOW AND INTEREST RATES LOW FOR PEOPLE WHO OWN HOMES RATHER THAN DEALING WITH CHILD POVERTY. I RECKON THEY WILL RAISE BENEFITS IN THE BUDGET NEXT MONTH. I HAVE NOTHING TO BASE THAT ON EXCEPT THAT IS THE THIRD BUDGET SINCE THE WEAG REPORT WAS RELEASED. WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT GRANT ROBERTSON SAID A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO THAT HE WAS NOT INCREASING THE OPERATIONAL ALLOWANCES THAT WERE SET AT THE END of LAST YEAR. SINCE THEN, THE GOVERNMENT'S BUDGET POSITION HAS IMPROVED DRAMATICALLY. THE DEFICIT IS HALF WHAT THEY EXPECTED BECAUSE THE ECONOMY HAS BEEN STRONGER. THE GOVERNMENT SAID, WE ARE NOT GOING TO INCREASE THE OPERATIONAL BUDGETS. AT THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO INCREASE BENEFITS, THEY WILL HAVE TO TAKE IT OFF SPINNING IN OTHER AREAS. THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE IS THAT THEY NEED TO BUILD HOUSES. YOU CAN LOOK AT TACKS DEDUCTIBILITY IN THAT TYPE OF THING. BUT THE REAL THING IS ACTUALLY USING THE POWERS THEY HAVE AND BUILDING AND JUST LEGISLATE. THEY HAVE A MAJORITY. LEGISLATE. LEGISLATE TO ACQUIRE LAND AND TO SET THE PRICE AT WHICH THEY BUY THAT LAND. OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE DONE THAT FACED WITH A POPULATION EXPLOSION AND EATING TO HOUSE THEIR PEOPLE. WHAT DO THEY PUT FIRST ` THE PEOPLE OR THE WEALTH FACTOR? I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH. WE SAW SOME DAMNING COMMENTS FROM THE HEAD OF THE MENTAL HEALTH FOUNDATION ABOUT THE SPEED OF PROGRESS ON THAT FRONT. WE ALL REMEMBER THE PRIME MINISTERS STANDING OUTSIDE PARLIAMENT PROMISING CHANGE. I THINK IT IS VERY SLOW. THEY HAVE THE MENTAL HEALTH AND WELL-BEING COMMISSION NOW. THAT HAS STARTED. THERE ARE FEW OTHER THINGS IN PROCESS. BUT THOSE THINGS ARE REALLY SLOW. WE ARE NOT SEEING ANY ACTUAL ON THE GROUND CHANGE. IT'S ALL UP HERE. THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BASING THE SYSTEM AND WANTING TO USE THE SYSTEM ARE FACING BARRIERS OF HUMAN RESOURCING. WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH ACCESS FOR MAORI AND PACIFIC COMMUNITIES INTO THE SYSTEM ITSELF. I'M A MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM USER, AND IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO GET IN UNLESS YOU ARE EDUCATED AND NOWHERE TO GO. ALL OF THIS TALK ABOUT 1737, IT'S GREAT AND IT HELPS YOU, THEY'RE ALL THESE BLOCKAGES AFTER THAT. AND WHAT I'M HEARING FROM COMMUNITIES THAT I AM INVOLVED IN IN WELLINGTON IS THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET THOSE APPOINTMENTS, TO GET THAT WORK DONE. AND IT'S 4 1/2 YEARS NOW, THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT SIMPLY SAY, WE NEED MORE TIME WE COULDN'T DO IT IN THE FIRST TERM BECAUSE OF NEW ZEALAND FIRST OR WHATEVER. NEW ZEALAND FIRST WAS KEEN TO SOLVE THESE ISSUES AS WELL. THE GUTS OF IT IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT HASN'T MANAGED TO DRIVE THAT REFORM THROUGH ITS PUBLIC SERVICES FOR WHATEVER REASON IN LARGE PART BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT PUSHBACK FROM PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO CHANGE THE CURRENT SITUATION OR THEY SAY IT CAN'T BE AFFORDED. THE GOVERNMENT SPENT ITS FIRST TERM FOCUSING ON NOT INCREASING DEBT AND STILL THE FINANCIAL MINISTERS BOTTOM LINE IN HIS MOST RECENT COMMENTS ABOUT WHAT THE PRIORITIES OF THE GOVERNMENT ARE SEARED IT IS TO KEEP A LID ON DEBT. IS AND ALSO A LACK OF CAPABILITY? WE SAW THAT RIGHT THROUGH THE FIRST TERM. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT FUNDAMENTAL ORGANISATION HEFT TO DELIVER THINGS LIKE COVID-19. WE AS A HEFT TO DELIVER ON THE MENTAL HEALTH SIDE? DOES IT NEED A PARTICULAR TASK FORCE? NOT AN ADVISORY ONE BUT AN ACTION FOCUSED BASE OF PEOPLE. THAT IS WHERE THIS GOVERNMENT IS HORRIBLY WEAK ` LIGHT RAIL, KIWIBUILD, THAT IS. THEY HAVE A MAJORITY IN PARLIAMENT. THEY HAVE NO EXCUSES. SHE IS POWERFUL. SHE IS POPULAR. THE GOVERNMENT HAS A COMPLETE CONTROL OF THE PARLIAMENT. THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO PUSH BACK ANY OFFICIALS WHO MIGHT PUSHBACK. THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO DRIVE THIS THROUGH. TO SEE STILL THE PREVARICATION, THE RELUCTANCE TO SET TARGETS AND TO COMMIT TO MAKING THESE CHANGES, IT'S REALLY DISAPPOINTING. WE WILL PAUSE THERE. GREAT KORERO THERE. AFTER THE BREAK ` A PROBLEM THAT'S BECOMING ALL-TOO FAMILIAR FOR PEOPLE IN OUR CAPITAL. FOR PEOPLE IN OUR CAPITAL. COUNCILS AROUND THE COUNTRY ARE BEING WARNED ABOUT A LOOMING CRISIS AFTER DECADES OF UNDER-INVESTMENT IN THE WATER INFRASTRUCTURE NETWORKS THAT KEEP US RUNNING. WELLINGTON IS FACING A $2.7B BILL FOR FIXING ITS PIPE NETWORK, PLUS PROBLEMS FINDING THE EXPERTISE FOR THE PROJECTS. HERE'S WHENA OWEN. (BRIGHT MUSIC) WELLINGTON ` A CITY EARNING A REPUTATION FOR ITS WATER FEATURES. EARLIER THIS YEAR, DURING A RUN OF THEM, THE WATER SHOWS WERE EVEN GIVEN AN UNOFFICIAL NAME. WELLINGTON GEYSER FESTIVAL, I THINK I CALLED IT. LOCAL IDENTITY DAVE ARMSTRONG HAS WRITTEN ABOUT WELLINGTON'S DAMAGED WATER PIPES IN HIS COLUMNS AND SOCIAL MEDIA. BUT WITH THE REST OF THE COUNTRY HAVING A LAUGH, SHOULD A WELLINGTONIAN GET STUCK IN TOO? HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH INFRASTRUCTURE CRUMBLING AROUND YOU IF YOU DON'T MAKE JOKES ABOUT IT? SO, NO. THAT'S HOW I COPE, ANYWAY. THE LATEST CLUSTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE PROBLEMS BEGAN AT THE BEGINNING OF LAST YEAR WITH A CORRODED SEWERAGE PIPE IN WILLIS STREET. THAT CAUSED A STINK FOR LOCAL BUSINESSES, WHICH WERE DISRUPTED FOR MONTHS. THE TURD TAXIS ARRIVED SOON AFTER. THAT'S WHAT RESIDENTS CALLED THE CONVOY OF TRUCKS HAVING TO DELIVER SEWAGE SLUDGE TO A LANDFILL BECAUSE OF A WASTEWATER PIPE BREAKAGE ` A RELATIVELY NEW PIPE. - GO. BACK. AND THEN THE SHOWY STUFF. GRANTED, THIS GEYSER ON MOUNT VICTORIA WAS AN ACCIDENT, NOT A PIPE MALFUNCTION. BUT ERUPTING WATER MAINS AND EVEN A SINKHOLE SEEM TO BE REGULAR EVENTS. ON TOP OF THAT, ONGOING EARTHQUAKE RESTRUCTURING MAKES WELLINGTON LOOK LIKE A CONSTRUCTION SITE. GETTING AROUND THE CITY NOW, IF YOU'RE DRIVING, IT'S A NIGHTMARE. JUST IT'S NOT AS PLEASURABLE TO GO OUT SO MUCH IN WELLINGTON AT THE MOMENT. IT HASN'T CHANGED MY LIFE AT ALL. YEAH, WELLINGTON'S AWESOME. THE CIVIC SQUARE, LIKE, THE HEART OF THE CITY'S GONE, HASN'T IT? SO THEY RENAMED IT AS THE HEART OF THE CITY, AND THEN IT DOESN'T EXIST ANY MORE. (CHUCKLES) SORT OF, NGAURANGA GORGE THROUGH TO THE MOA POINT. ON THE TERRACE, WE'RE TALKING SEWERAGE WITH WELLINGTON MAYOR ANDY FOSTER, WHO'S FIERCELY DEFENDING HIS CITY. I THINK WE'VE GOT THE BEST DOWNTOWN IN NEW ZEALAND, AND WE'RE LOOKING TO SUPPORT THAT AS WELL. BUT YOU HAVE TO WEAR TRAMPING BOOTS TO GET THROUGH IT, DON'T YOU? (CHUCKLES) AND A HIGH-VIS VEST. NOT AT ALL. NOT AT ALL. (ELECTRONIC MUSIC) POOR, OLD WELLINGTON. BUT THAT'S JUST PART OF THE PROBLEM. WELLINGTON IS A COMPARATIVELY OLD CITY, A COMPACT CITY, AND MUCH OF ITS AGEING WATER PIPE NETWORK IS IN RECLAIMED LAND AND IT HAS COME IN FOR A BATTERING IN THE RECENT EARTHQUAKES. BUT THIS WEEK ORDERED NEW ZEALAND WARNED THAT THE CAPITAL HAS UNDER INVESTED. YOU HAVE BEEN ON COUNCIL FOR ABOUT THREE DECADES. YOU MUST HAVE KNOWN THAT THIS WAS A TICKING TIME BOMB. WELL, NO. THE REALITY IS THAT IN THE PAST WE HAVE NEVER SAID NO TO ANY REQUESTS FOR FUNDING THAT WE'VE BEEN ASKED FOR FOR WATERS. WE HAD FULLY FUNDED THE DEPRECIATION. THE ISSUE HAS BEEN THAT NOT ALL OF THAT DEPRECIATION MONEY WAS GOING INTO RENEWALS. BUT WHAT WE DID DO IS WE INVESTED IN THINGS LIKE SEWAGE TREATMENT PLANTS, IN THINGS LIKE HOLDING TANKS AND PUMP STATIONS. AND IN THE HILLS ABOVE WELLINGTON, A $68m RESERVOIR IS BEING BUILT. AT THE MOMENT, WELLINGTON'S DRINKING WATER IS PIPED IN FROM THE VALLEY. AND IF, FOR INSTANCE, THE PIPES WERE DAMAGED IN AN EARTHQUAKE, THEN THIS RESERVOIR WOULD SUPPLY THE BACK-UP. THESE PROJECTS, ALONG WITH THE DEMANDS OF THREE WATERS AND WELLINGTON'S PIPE REPAIRS ARE HITTING RATEPAYERS. IT'S ESTIMATED TO BE A 13.5% INCREASE IN THE FIRST YEAR. WELLINGTON'S NOT THE ONLY COUNCIL TO HIKE RATES. IT'S NOT THE ONLY COUNCIL TO HAVE WATER ISSUES. MANY ARE GRAPPLING WITH DRINKING WATER QUALITY. ONE THING TO SAY IS THIS IS A NATIONAL ISSUE. WE'RE NOT ALONE IN FACING THIS. HEAD OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT NEW ZEALAND STUART CROSBIE ` IF YOU LOOK AT THE WHOLE OF NEW ZEALAND, YOU KNOW, FROM THE FAR NORTH DOWN TO THE DEEP SOUTH, THE VARIOUS COUNCILS AND THEIR INFRASTRUCTURE IN DIFFERENT STAGES OF GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT AND STATE OF REPAIR. BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF COUNCILS DO HAVE GOOD, SOLID INFRASTRUCTURE. BUT IT'S GETTING HARDER AND HARDER TO PROVIDE THAT HIGH LEVEL OF INFRASTRUCTURE ON TIME. ONE OF THE REASONS RECENTLY CITED IS LACK OF EXPERTISE IN WORKFORCE. WELLINGTON WATER ACTUALLY PUT UP A PROPOSAL TO SAY, 'CAN WE INVEST IN TRAINING FUTURE STAFF AND A TRAINING ESTABLISHMENT, 'EFFECTIVELY?' AND THAT DIDN'T GET THROUGH THE SYSTEM. SO MAYBE THAT'S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE RETHOUGHT. LGNZ SAYS THAT LACK OF EXPERTISE TO CARRY OUT COUNCIL INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS IS A NATIONAL PROBLEM. MY PERSONAL VIEW IS WE WILL HAVE TO IMPORT SOME OF THAT. WE CAN'T JUST RELY ON OUR CURRENT CAPABILITY AND CAPACITY AND TECHNICAL EXPERTISE. (TECHNO MUSIC) BUT IS WORKFORCE A REASON WHY WELLINGTON IS FAR BEHIND IN ASSESSING 450km OF PIPES DEEMED TO BE IN CRITICAL CONDITION? IF YOU STRETCH THEM ALL OUT, THAT'S WELLINGTON TO TOKOROA, AND ONLY 10km HAS SO FAR BEEN COMPLETED. IN THE MEANTIME, DAVE ARMSTRONG ALERTS US TO ANOTHER BURST WATER MAIN. TODAY THERE WAS AN EVENT IN KARORI IN HOMEWOOD AVE, WHICH IS A VERY PLOOSY PART OF TOWN. BUT YOU KNOW, I'D LIKE TO POINT OUT THAT GEYSERS CAN HAPPEN ANYWHERE. AND IF YOU LIVE IN A NOT SO GREAT AREA OF WELLINGTON, YOU'LL GET A GEYSER SOON. UP IN KARORI, THE SHOW'S OVER, BUT SURROUNDING RESIDENTS ARE WITHOUT WATER. I THINK YOUR WATER'S GONNA BE OFF FOR FIVE HOURS, APPARENTLY. OH, RIGHT. AND THERE'S NO NOTICE? UM, NO. COS IT WAS A BURST WATER MAIN. OH, I SEE. OH. ANYWAY, GO AND FIND OUT. AND ONCE AGAIN, WELLINGTON WATER HAS HAD TO BRING IN A WATER TANKER FOR LOCAL RESIDENTS. THIS WELLINGTONIAN HAS AN ISSUE WITH WELLINGTON WATER SPENDING BIG ON OUTSOURCING PUBLIC RELATIONS TO MANAGE ITS IMAGE. BUT THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE MESSAGE. THE PROBLEM ARE THE PIPES. LET'S BRING THE PANEL BACK IN. FRAN O'SULLIVAN. BERNARD HICKEY. EMMALINE PICKERING-MARTIN. IT'S NOT SEXY, BUT IT IS CRITICAL. ABSOLUTELY. IN HIDEOUS MANAGEMENT BY LOCAL COUNCIL WHICH NEEDS TO BE TURFED OUT FOR SOMEONE WHO WILL GO IN WITH AN X AND AGENDA. ALSO FOR AUCKLAND, THERE IS THE HARBOUR BRIDGE. WE NEED ANOTHER CROSSING HERE. IT'S A MAJOR ISSUE WE HAVE A NEW ZEALAND. INFRASTRUCTURE HAS NOT CAUGHT UP IN AUCKLAND. WE HAVE MASSIVE POPULATION GROWTH IN NEW NEW ZEALAND AHEAD OF US. RATEPAYERS AND TAXPAYERS HAVE VOTED FOR TACKS CUTS RATHER THAN INVESTING IN INFRASTRUCTURE. AT ABOUT WITH A CENTRAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT CAN AGREE ON DEFICIT FIXING AND REPAIRING FOR THE POPULATION WAVED TO COME. THE BOARD ARE THEY GOING TO READ OPEN. YOU CAN BET WE WILL HAVE MORE PEOPLE COMING IN. WHEN THERE ARE MEMBERS OF RATES RISES, PEOPLE WILL BE UPSET ABOUT A 6% OR 7% INCREASE. YEAH. WE WAS THE PLANNING? WHAT WERE THEY DOING? WE KNOW THAT WELLINGTON HAS GOT MASSIVE POPULATION GROWTH. AUCKLAND IS DI NORMA'S. THEY WILL NEED GOOD INVESTMENT AND FORWARD PLANNING FROM NOW, PLEASE. THANKS YOUR COMMENTS TODAY. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE TEENS WHO SEE CLIMATE CHANGE AS A FIGHT FOR THEIR FUTURE. TO BE HONEST, LABOUR'S RESPONSE HAS ACTUALLY BEEN FAIRLY DISAPPOINTING. THE CLIMATE CHANGE COMMISSION WILL DELIVER ITS FINAL ADVICE TO THE GOVERNMENT AT THE END OF NEXT MONTH, AND THOUSANDS OF YOUNG PEOPLE HIT THE STREETS ON FRIDAY IN A FINAL PUSH FOR ACCELERATED ACTION. IT WAS THE FIRST CLIMATE STRIKE SINCE THE COMMISSION'S DRAFT REPORT. SO HAS THE FRAMEWORK GIVEN THE STRIKERS A SENSE OF OPTIMISM? HERE'S CONNOR STIRLING. BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THESE WERE THE QUIET MOMENTS FOR THE HUNDREDS GATHERED ON AUCKLAND'S QUEEN STREET. WHAT DO WE WANT? ALL: CLIMATE ACTION! WHEN DO WE WANT IT? ALL: NOW! HERE FOR A CAUSE MANY FEEL THEIR FUTURES DEPEND ON. CLIMATE CHANGE HAS GOT TO GO. HEY-HEY, HO-HO. JACK BARLOW (16) AND CHRISTINA SIEBERHAGEN (15) ORGANISED THE SCHOOL STRIKE FOR CLIMATE ` THE FIRST SINCE COVID-19 HIT. WE HAVE TO KEEP FIGHTING BECAUSE IT'S GONNA TAKE A LOT TO REVERSE WHAT'S BEEN DONE TO THE WORLD. I SAY 'PEOPLE'. YOU SAY 'POWER'. PEOPLE... ALL: POWER! PEOPLE. ALL: POWER! WHAT BROUGHT YOU DOWN TO THE CLIMATE PROTEST TODAY? OUR WORLD IS DYING, AND WE NEED OUR GOVERNMENT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. NOT ENOUGH ACTION HAS BEEN DONE, AND WE WANT ACTION NOW. THE NOT SO YOUNG HERE TOO. THE ENVIRONMENT'S AN IMPORTANT PRISM TO LOOK AT THE WORLD THROUGH, AND I'M SUPPORTING MY DAUGHTER. I'VE BEEN WORRIED ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE FOR MANY, MANY YEARS. AUCKLAND'S SCENES MIRRORED IN WELLINGTON AND AROUND THE COUNTRY WHERE PROTESTERS SAY THE POLITICAL RESPONSE HASN'T MATCHED THE URGENCY OF THE CRISIS. HOW DO YOU RATE THEIR PROGRESS SO FAR? I THINK NEW ZEALAND IN THE WORLD IS ACTUALLY ONE OF THE BETTER COUNTRIES. WE'RE WELL PAST THE POINT WHERE A COUPLE OF GOOD THINGS HERE AND THERE ARE GONNA GET IT. WE NEED TRANSLATION NOW. AND TO BE HONEST, LABOUR'S RESPONSE HAS ACTUALLY BEEN FAIRLY DISAPPOINTING. BUT FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THESE MARCHES BEGAN, THERE'S A MORE DETAILED PLAN FOR THE FUTURE. THE CLIMATE CHANGE COMMISSION'S DRAUGHT REPORT RECOMMENDS SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN AGRICULTURE AND TRANSPORT. IT'S RECEIVED A MIXED RESPONSE. WE THOUGHT THAT, IN GENERAL, THE ADVICE WAS REALLY GOOD. IT WAS VERY STRONG. IT HAD A GOOD FOCUS ON LOTS OF DIFFERENT ISSUES, WHICH IS REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE CLIMATE CHANGE IS SUCH A MULTIFACETED ISSUE. THERE WERE AREAS THAT DEFINITELY WERE LACKING. AND WE MADE A SUBMISSION SO DID SCHOOL STRIKE NEW ZEALAND, ESPECIALLY ON AGRICULTURE. WITH FINAL ADVICE DUE AT THE END OF MAY, THE CHOICES THE GOVERNMENT THEN MAKES ARE SHAPING UP AS DEFINING MOMENTS IN OUR RESPONSE TO CLIMATE CHANGE. IF THEY DO END UP RECEIVING AND TAKING IN ALL OF THE ADVICE FROM THE CLIMATE CHANGE COMMISSION, THEN THEY ARE BOUND TO MAKE LOTS OF CHANGES AND SEE LOTS OF ACTION. AND SO IT'S REALLY JUST HINGING ON THAT CCC REPORT THERE. SO YOU KNOW, WE'RE PLANNING A CLIMATE CHANGE SPECIAL TO CONINCIDE WITH THE CLIMATE COMMISSION'S FINAL REPORT. THAT WILL BROADCAST NEXT MONTH. FOR NOW THOUGH, KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS AND TO THE Q+A TEAM. MARAE IS UP NEXT. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY MICHAELA CORNELIUS AND KRISTIN WILLIAMS. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2021