- TOVA O'BRIEN: E haere ake nei ` today on Newshub Nation, we wake to the news that Prince Philip, Queen Elizabeth II's husband, has died, aged 99. We cross live to London for the latest. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 Kia ora. Good morning. I'm Tova O'Brien. Welcome to Newshub Nation. Prince Philip, Queen Elizabeth II's husband, has died, aged 99. 'It is with deep sorrow that Her Majesty The Queen announces the death of her beloved husband,' read a statement issued by the palace last night. The Duke of Edinburgh was the longest-serving royal consort in British history. The Queen's steadfast support, they were married for 73 years. She described him as her strength and stay. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has issued a statement expressing New Zealand's sorrow at the death of the Prince. It reads, 'Our thoughts are with Her Majesty the Queen at this profoundly sad time.' She's announced that after his funeral, a national memorial service will be held in Wellington. Clare De Lore, Lady MacKinnon, is a New Zealand journalist very familiar with the royals. Her and her husband, former Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Sir Don McKinnon know them personally, and she joins me now. Thank you very much, Lady MacKinnon, for joining us. Having spent time personally with Prince Philip, how will you remember him? - I think he was a man of his time, yet he moved with the Times to an extent. And I think primarily I remember him as the terrific support he was to Her Majesty the Queen. It's a very, very sad and lonely day for her. You know, she's now lost her mother, sister, and she's the last one left of her generation, really. She has a very close cousin, Princess Alexandra. But I think she's going to feel this so deeply. - And having to to grieve so, so publicly as well. Obviously, the Queen more familiar than most with public life, but how will that be? That balance between juggling her private grief with her public commitments? - I think she's become quite used to it, but it's very, very difficult in case of losing her spouse. The man who stood by her side and a little bit behind her for nearly all of their married lives together. It's it's a huge blow to her. And I think that, however he is officially commemorated, there will be a high sensitivity to the fact that she is in her mid 90s and that it's been a very difficult time all around for the royal family this year. There'll be a lot of eyes on Prince Harry, but I think people should remain very focussed on the fact that we have lost somebody who's very strong, historic figure, a great support to the Queen, who is after all right now, still the Queen of New Zealand as well. - And can you tell me a little bit about your relationship with him, your dealings with him, what he was like? - Well, he was the kind of guy who could make or break somebody's stay because he spoke his mind. And sometimes that, you know, there are famous stories about him saying things that people took a little bit of exception to. But there are also episodes where he showed incredible kindness and sensitivity towards people. I remember once telling him at a lunch where we were seated together, but my handbag had just been stolen and he asked, you know, whereabouts and whatever. And I said, 'Well, you won't know it, it's a Sainsbury's supermarket.' He said, 'Tell me which one. I will know it.' And indeed, he did know it, and was very sympathetic that day. But it was also the day we were hosting a lunch for the Queen's 80th birthday. And we had agreed we would not have anyone sing Happy Birthday because they'd heard about 100 times up to that point. And yet somebody thought the hosts, that's Don and I, were not doing our duty, obviously. And they spontaneously started a round of Happy Birthday. And he just looked at me and said, 'Bloody hell, we're sick of this.' You know, he really just spoke his mind, and sometimes that was at cost, but it was also quite refreshing. And it would have been an extraordinarily difficult thing for the Queen to have had somebody who didn't add colour to her life and tell her sometimes exactly what he thought. - Thank you so much for your reflections, and sharing some of your stories as well with us about Prince Philip. Thank you, Clare De Lore, Lady Mckinnon. - You're welcome. - And former High Commissioner to the UK Sir Lockwood Smith is with us now. Sir Lockwood, thank you very much for joining us. - For sure. - You were just telling me that last night when you learned the news, you and Lady Alexandra stayed up until midnight, just reflecting on some of your times with the Duke. Can you share some? - Yeah, it's so special getting to know someone like him, because I think a lot of people see him as a as a figure and not a real person, but he is a real person. We some wonderful, wonderful chats with him. And he, I think, used to like talking to people who weren't, you know, always just speaking in diplomatic terms. Often he'd come across the room and have a yarn to me. But, you know, one day` - Because you're one of those people? - Well, yeah, I wasn't, probably, a very good diplomat. (LAUGHS) Anyhow, one day, Alexandra, my wife, and I were chatting to him and he asked the question I often ask, you know, do you have family here in London with you type of thing? And Alexander said, 'Yeah, our son is with us.' And she proceeded to tell him about how her son John had, when he graduated, he and his mates bought a whole dunger of a 35-foot ferro-cement yacht for very little and did it up. And five of them who've never sailed before headed off to Fiji in it` sailed to Fiji in it. And you wonder sometimes whether, you know, the royals listen to what you really say to them. And they do, because Philip Prince Philip sort of finished talking to us, and he started to head across the room. He got about halfway across the room from us. He turned around and he called out in his gravelly voice ` you know, as he got a bit older, his voice got quite gravelly ` - he said, 'Did they make it?' He obviously has a huge interest in young people and how adventure can really, you know, change young people's lives. And of course, Alexandra's son John, adventure has been a real part of his life, and really made his life in many ways. - And certainly he had a huge impact on New Zealand as well, didn't he? For that very reason with the Duke of Edinburgh Hilary Award. What kind of impact will his passing have on the community? - I- It's a wonderful thing that, you know, the Duke of Edinburgh Hilary Award, because I wondered sometimes how many young people are actually involved in it, and it's huge! You know, Alexandra's back counselling, at high school again these days. And a number of young people at her school are doing the award. And, you know, the gold award takes a whole year of activities involving, you know, service, public service, taking on challenges, adventure, all that sort of thing. And it's not just New Zealand. It's not just the Commonwealth. Over 100 countries around the world, young people are involved in the Duke of Edinburgh Awards. And I think it's a fabulous legacy as it helps, you know, change young people's lives and helps them learn how to grapple with some of the challenges in life, and I think he really has a great interest in young people and how, you know, how they can make their lives better. - And do you think, Sir Lockwood has his death might have any bearing on the relationship that New Zealand has with the monarchy? - I don't think so, because I think our relationship is very strong. You know, I suppose Alexander and I got to know Prince Charles and the Duchess of Cornwall, best of all. And they have a huge interest in New Zealand. And even, you know, Prince Harry had` On Anzac Day in London, it's a huge event in London, Anzac Day. It's huge. And Prince Harry would sometimes spend the whole day with us going from one service to another, you know, commemorating New Zealand's incredible contribution during the World Wars. And so I think the relationship of the royal family, the constitutional monarchy, is such a valuable thing for New Zealand. It's interesting, in the time I was in London, of course, I served on the board of the Commonwealth. And the countries that get into trouble often are not the ones with the constitutional monarchy. That system evolved over hundreds of years from Magna Carta on, and it works well. Often it's the republics that tend to get into challenges. And so I think the relationship with the monarchy is going to stay very, very, very strong. And Her Majesty, though, I think, will miss Prince Philip. She often used to refer to him` And it was fascinating one day chatting to her majesty, and sometimes you think, how does she refer to members of her family? You know, does she refer to Prince Philip as the Duke of Edinburgh or Prince Philip? - Or baby? - But no, no, she you know, chatting about Prince` She just said, 'Philip,' 'Philip says this,' or 'Philip thinks that.' And it's lovely that, you know, they are real people when you're talking to them, when you get to know them and they don't` you know, they` they respond like real people. And Prince Philip's death will be like a real person. The loss will be very real to the royal family. Absolutely. That's something for us all to remember while we're reflecting on that as well. Thank you so much for your time this morning, Sir Lockwood, I appreciate it. - Pleasure. And if you've got thoughts on what you see on our show, let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, NewshubNationNZ, or email us at nation@tv3.co.nz E whai ake nei, stay with us for our political panel, Jenny Marcroft, John Tamihere, and Carmen Parahi. But first, Maori Development Minister Willy Jackson joins us live. - Maori Development Minister Willie Jackson joins us now live from Wellington. Tena koutou, Minister. Thank you very much for joining us. - (CLEARS THROAT) Morena. Kia ora. Kia ora, Tova. - Kia ora, Willie. If we could just start with the news overnight ` the passing of Prince Philip ` do you think that this will have any bearing on New Zealand's relationship with the monarchy, with the royal family? - Oh, tuatahi, e tika ana ki te tautoko te korero to tatou Pirimia Jacinda. E tika ana ki te hoatu ta matou aroha ki tera whanau. No reira, e te Rangatira, moe mai, moe mai, moe mai ra. I think that that relationship is strong, and I think it will continue. And you've already heard our Prime Minister give her condolences, and there's a really good relationship there. And so while all our aroha, obviously, goes out to the whanau at this stage, the relationship is a strong relationship. - Thank you very much. And we wanna talk today about inequity in New Zealand, specifically within the justice system, but as Maori Development Minister, I wanna look at some of those kinda early drivers ` the inequities around health, housing, unemployment for Maori. You've seen how bleak those statistics are across the board. - (CLEARS THROAT) - You've seen it first-hand as well. How bad is it for Maori in New Zealand? - Oh, well, (SIGHS) look, it's been bad for a long time. Let's be very clear ` in every area of New Zealand society right across the spectrum, we have institutional racism. It's not just in the justice system. It's been in the health system; it's been in the just` you know, we talked justice. We've had Oranga Tamariki. You know, it's in the media. You know, we've been side-lined in the media. So in every area of New Zealand society, we have institutional racism. It's one of the reasons why I came into politics, Tova ` to try and work solutions up to try and find a way back, because I got sick and tired of our people being singled out. In 1988, we had the report in terms of social welfare that said (CLEARS THROAT) that institutional racism was the most insidious, most destructive type of racism around, because it affects generations, and it affects vulnerable people, and you have intergenerational effects. And in that case, that's my people, and so it's been` well, it's been terrible in past years. Are things turning around? Well, I think this is a government that has showed and is showing that we're putting some of the frameworks in place. In terms of the turnaround, we only have to look at Oranga Tamariki as probably a primary example. You know, we had all the criticism in terms of the racism with regards` in the institutional racism with regards to Oranga Tamariki. This government has responded. We've got an all-Maori board; we've got a Maori chair; we've got an interim Maori CEO, and there's a plan in terms of 'by Maori, for Maori' funding. So, you know, I think we're finding our way through this. We've got a prime minister and a government who are committed to change. - Finding your way through it, but it is like molasses, and you have got a really strong Maori representation within cabinet, the strongest Labour Maori caucus. How much better off will Maori be after this term? Can you kinda put something a bit more quantifiable on it? Cos those figures, those statistics just aren't budging. - Well, we'll be better off when we start getting more equitable funding. That's when we'll be better off. So you've had Maori providers who've been given crumbs for many, many years. You wanna look at health ` Maori health has been in a catastrophic position. That's what our Waitangi Tribunal said. So what does this government have to do? Well, we're coming up with a Maori Health Authority. I think that's a good start; that's a good framework, but we have to fund it properly, and we're looking at that now. We have to resource it properly. So we'll be much better off if we have 'a' independent Maori Health Authority that looks after the interests of our people ` a 'by Maori, for Maori' solution. I can't tell you exactly where we're gonna be in three years, but I know that's the way forward. I know in terms of Oranga Tamariki that we need to devolve funding to our community groups who've been working off the smell of an oily rag. I know in education, we have to do something drastically when 50% of our kids are leaving school without qualifications. I know in the justice system, there has to be a reshape ` and I'm working in the Maori justice area ` when we have Maori who are arrested at seven times more the rate` or getting charged at seven more times the rate than Pakeha. So I'm working closely with our Justice Minister on that` - So` - ...in terms of the shape of the Maori justice system. So I can't tell you exactly where will it be, but I can tell you that when you've got frameworks in place like we're doing at Oranga Tamariki, like we're doing in justice... - Yeah. - ...like what Kelvin Davis is trying to do in Corrections, you know, that` - So what`? Sorry to interrupt, Minister, but what I can read into what you're saying, then, in this need for funding, is that there will be rivers of cash for Maori in Budget 2021. Is that right? - No. Well, I can't tell you what's gonna be in there. I can tell you that I advocate for more resourcing and funding, but it's not just` I mean, that's a huge part of it, but it's not just` that's not what it's just about. - Are you advocating hard enough, though? Are you and your ministerial colleagues advocating hard enough? Because if we look back on Labour government budgets, in 2018, bugger all for Maori; 2019, a bit more; 2020 was dictated by COVID. Are you pushing hard enough for money? Or is it that Jacinda Ardern and Grant Robertson just aren't putting out? - Well, you're gonna have to ask my community whether I advocate strongly for Maori, but I can tell you that's what I try and do every single day. We've actually got more funding for Maori than any other Maori grouping in the history of Parliament. Is that enough? Is that enough? Of course it's not. Of course it's not. But, you know, I chose to come in here, institution` - Did you come up against it when you try and push for that cash from Grant Robertson? Is he pushing back? - Oh. (SIGHS) I'm like any other minister who has to negotiate with him. He's a good man. He's got a Ngati Porou background. He's got a Ngati Porou partner, so he's part of our tribe. So I try and use anything and everything I can to try and get more funding across the table, but` - You're also a minister who's advocating for people who have been historically shafted by government. - Absolutely. - So he should be listening to you perhaps more than others, do you think? - Well, I try to tell him that, but that doesn't work sometimes. But he shows me a lotta respect. He shows us a lotta respect. But we'll be ultimately judged by what we can give back to our community, but, you know, Tova, let's not let some of these agencies off the hook. You know, there's a history there. I think a lot of them are starting to turn around. We've got ` you're right ` some Maori ministers. We've also got good ministers like Carmel Sepuloni in there, who's got a big responsibility. We need to` We're doing Maori focus programmes and MSD targeted programmes. I'm really pleased to be working with her. I'm working with Poto Williams, who's doing great work in Police, working with Maori police like Wally Haumaha. We're putting in marae panels. - That's` - There's lots of things happening, but` - Let's talk ab` - If you're saying we need more funding, absolutely. - Yeah, let's talk more specifically about police. I wanna kinda paint you a bit of a picture. Last year we saw armed response teams targeting Maori. We've seen Armed Offenders Squads training in predominantly Maori neighbourhood. There's allegations of racial profiling and police taking photos of rangatahi. Do these sound like things that should be happening in 2020, 2021? - Of course not. Of course not. You can't argue with the facts. We can only respond by saying we want a change in the police. I think we've got the right Commissioner in terms of Andrew Coster. I think he's the right commissioner. - But is there a disconnect between what the commissioner's saying and what we're seeing borne out in the streets and what we're seeing borne out in the statistics? - I think that's a fair comment. I think that despite us having the right commissioner and also people like Wally Haumaha, we also have marae programmes. I started the marae panels at Nga Whare Waatea, my marae. We've got a lotta good things happening, but we've got some of these things that keep happening out on the streets. In South Auckland ` you'll know too, Tova ` we've had a lotta complaints over the last few months about some of the policing. It's not good enough. It doesn't show police in a good light at all, and it puts a taint over a lot of the good work that is happening. So I've got faith that Andrew and Wally and them can turn this around, but it's no good denying the facts. The facts are it. - But` The facts are in, in terms of the justice system too, in terms of how our people have been singled out. What are we gonna do? - Well` - Well, we're putting in partnerships. We're working with iwi. We're working with Maori organisations. - Let me ask you something specifically. Again, I'm sorry to interrupt, but let me ask you something specifically about the sharp end. I wanna know why the proportion of Maori in prisons ` even though the overall prison muster is going down ` why the proportion of Maori in prisons is going up under your government's watch. - Well, you would have heard Minister Davis with regards to this kaupapa. This is his kaupapa. I'm gonna` - He somehow celebrates the fact that the muster's going down, but the proportion is what we need to be looking at, because that's the racism. - (SIGHS) Well, I think he's aware of the racism. We're aware of the racism that's happened in terms of Corrections. There has to be a drastic turnaround. He works every single day in terms of the turnaround. I'm proud of his work. The numbers are going down. There's no doubt about that. - The number of` The proportion of Maori is going up. - But, yes, you're saying the... Well, the proportion might be going up. You'll have to ask Minister Davis about that. But I know about the effort, the commitment and supp` - I'd love to, but he refused to come on the show, Minister. - Well, you need to work that out with him. I'm very` I'll come on to your show every Saturday, if you like ` not a problem. But in terms of` - Well, you might have to, because Poto Williams wouldn't come on either; Kris Faafoi. - Yup. - We wanted to talk to some of your justice-sector colleagues, but they were all, um, incommunicado. - Just understand this ` Kevin Davis is a person totally committed to turning around things in that area. I've never seen a correction minister who's so committed. - Well, it would be lovely ` then, on that ` to see the proportion of Maori in prisons start to go down, if indeed that is true. - W` - Minister, we have to leave it there. Thank you so much for your` - We're trying. Thank you so much for your time. - Kia ora. - Maori Development Minister ` kia ora, Willie Jackson. And we cross now` we're going back to the story that broke overnight ` the death of Prince Philip. We cross now to royal commentator Richard Fitzwilliams in London. Tena koe, Richard. Thank you very much for joining us. - Good evening. It's a very, very sad day. - It is indeed. And if you could maybe just tell us ` what's the feeling in the United Kingdom at the moment? How is Britain reacting? - Well, of course, they are reminiscing. And one of the things I think that occurs ` and Prince Philip is a very, very good example ` when you lose somebody and you think back over what you've lost, the most extraordinary memories can... return to you ` things, for example, that you took for granted. I mean, one of the great features of Prince Philip's life; two things he intended to do ` to support the queen, which he did so brilliantly as her strength of stay, and also, of course, to support the monarchy. There's no question that... He retired in 2017 at the age of 96, and his achievements were phenomenal over decades. And it's very interesting that he created a role... that hasn't any constitutional, uh, definition. Prince Albert had a similar role, but the monarchy had executive power in those days. Prince Philip was... considered an interloper by courtiers in the establishment, but what he so brilliantly managed to do was, firstly, it's almost as though he and the Queen had some form of secret or magical pact that they were able to carry off so many ceremonial engagements over so many years on so many trips abroad as well as at home so flawlessly. And the other thing that fascinated me was the Queen's very conservative and rather shy and cautious; the Prince so... dynamic, always challenging, acerbic. And it's the mixture of that that I think was so fantastic, because it was so beneficial ` two opposites combined for the same purpose ` and it benefited Britain, the Commonwealth and the wider world. - And our sympathies are, of course, with the Queen, Richard. What will she be doing now? And when will the public first see or hear from her? - Well, this isn't known. The issue's obviously (SIGHS) dealing with some sensitivity, because of the restrictions. There will be a funeral, we understand, at St George's Chapel in Windsor. This was always the plan. Prince Philip never wanted fuss... rather like when he was hospitalised. He was a very impatient patient. And our thoughts are with the Queen at the moment. We simply know no more than the statements put out by Buckingham Palace. People have been urged not to leave flowers, the point being, of course, that mixing at this particular time isn't encouraged. But over the coming days, we'll obviously learn more, and very, very clearly, the nation will be paying tribute ` albeit not in the way it normally would have ` to an amazing public servant who had so many sides. His personality and artistic side, few knew about, and, of course, he excelled at sports, and he was attached, would you believe, to 837 organisations and institutions? - Richard Fitzwilliams, thank you so much for your time and insights this morning. We appreciate you joining us. - Thank you. - Thank you. Coming up on the panel ` the news and politics of the week. But first, Police Commissioner Andrew Coster joins us from the north. Hoke mai ano. Let's talk about the police ` allegations of racism, systemic racism, statistics which look terrible for Maori and questions raised about police culture after a couple of atrocious videos emerged in the last month. Take a look. - Leave the area immediately, or you will be arrested! - 'He sort of took a bit of offense to what this girl was saying just to the left of us. 'And she said that her dad was a cop.' - Yeah? I'm sure he's really proud of having a (BLEEP) daughter. - Don't (BLEEP) Call my missus (BLEEP). - (BLEEP) - You're the man, bro. - Stop calling me (BLEEP)! - Well, you were calling me names. - You can't` - Oh, oh, oh (!) (SOBS DERISIVELY) - Why are you still being a fat (BLEEP). You're a (BLEEP) worthless piece of (BLEEP). Why don't you just (BLEEP) kill yourself you piece of (BLEEP). - Confronting viewing there, and I spoke earlier to Commissioner Andrew Coster, who's now been in the top job for a year. I asked how he felt when he saw that footage for the first time. - Look, any time we have incidents that don't reflect our values and don't reflect what we would expect of our people we deal with, and those situations we have responded to very clearly. And where there are issues, we'll address them. But that's not representative of the way our people operate every day, and we're an organisation that wants to ensure we are fair to all people so that we can get the best outcomes for our community. - You must have been taken aback when you saw those videos. - Oh, look, absolutely, I mean, we are an organisation that's very proud of what we do for our communities and from time to time in an organisation of 10,000 officers, people will lead us down and we deal with that really clearly. But as I say, that does not represent the work of our 10,000 officers out there every day. - Within that organisation of 10,000 officers, is there an underlying culture of kind of macho bravado? Do you have a culture problem within the police? - We have a great organisation and people out there making a huge difference, and our people join police to make a difference, they come to work to do a great job, and they do that` - Is that what those officers we saw in those videos joined for? Did they join for the right reasons, to make a difference? - As I've said, those situations are outliers. They do not represent what our people are about. And we're very proud of the positive difference we make in our communities. - Statistics tell us that anything bad within the police force is going to be far worse for Maori. When it comes to Maori, it seems to me that you're saying all the right stuff, that all the right stuff is being taught within police college. But then we're seeing this kind of disconnect in some examples on the ground. - Look, we are an organisation on a journey, and we have for the last 20 years enjoyed increasingly strong relationships with iwi and Maori. Our people are exceptional people. We are bringing some outstanding people into our organisation and we're very proud of what we do. So, as I say, we are on a journey and our people are very open to these conversations and where we need to go. - Do you see that those statistics, though, that they make the force look racist? - Ah, look, I accept that any situation, or any individual situation can be framed to look that way, but that doesn't take us very far forward in terms of what we do out there with 10,000 people. That's why we've pushed into this research, understanding policing delivery, which will help us to get under the hood of the question of bias and the system and whether police has change to make to be better in that regard. - Why is it that the police use force more against Maori than Pakeha? - Did you say more force? - Mm. Police tend to deploy tasers, dogs, guns, use force more against Maori than Pakeha. Why is that? Mm. That's what the research will help us to understand. What we know as that Maori are grappling with the range of disadvantage, more so than other parts of our population. We see that in terms of drug and alcohol issues, mental health issues and family harm. And so those make up the mix that police deal with, and the incidents we respond to. So we need to be able to separate what's upstream of police in terms of those kinds of issues, and then what are the things that police might need to do differently in order to make sure that we're being fair for all people? And the research will help us to understand. - So are you blaming those things kind of downstream, rather than the fact that police are just disproportionately using force more against Maori than Pakeha? - We need to identify what is a reflection of a greater set of problems that we are experiencing and what might be something the police needs to grapple with. As I say, our people come to work to do a great job. And so I'm really confident that if there are areas that police need to make change, that we will be able to make it and conversation with our people. Because it's not just that disproportionate use of force either, as it was those armed response teams targeting Maori, we've seen examples of the armed offenders squad training in predominantly Maori area allegations of racial profiling, taking photos of rangatahi. Is the police racist? - Our people are not racist. We know that the criminal justice system as a whole, of which police is part, is getting unequal outcomes for different groups. And so the reason we have commissioned this research is so that we can get past the talking past each other that we see with this kind of issue, and understand where the specific areas are that we need to make a difference, because I'm 100% certain that our people want to do the right thing by our communities and by the people that we police. And just quickly, yes or no, - have you stopped taking photos of young Maori kids while that practise is being investigated? - So we've had a range of specific instances raised. Those are being investigated by the IPCA. Have you stopped taking photos of Maori children while that investigation is underway? - Our policy is really clear about what is permitted there, and we have emphasised that with our people and I'm confident that our people have heard that message. - OK, we've got a response to an Official Information Act request, which shows that between 2012 and 2018, just one police officer a year was disciplined for racism after a complaint from the public. That's preposterously low. Are police turning a blind eye to those complaints? - Any complaint that comes forward, we will investigate. We have an independent accountability mechanism in the Independent Police Conduct Authority. So accountability is there, but the bigger issue isn't so much how we look at individual cases` Is it, though? Because only one person's been` Sorry to interrupt, Commissioner. But is accountability there if you're only disciplining one officer a year for racism? - Listen, we will look at every case that a complaint that comes in, but the thing here is not so much the attitudes of individual officers, what people are pointing to is the disproportionate, you know, representation of Maori. across a range of statistics. That's less about individual cases and it's more about how is the system as a whole leading to better outcomes for Maori? We play our part on that. There are a range of things that we have been working with Maori for a long time, and you can see our commitment, and we will speak of our commitment to working better with Maori. So we are very much tackling these issues. But that response also says that there isn't actually a complaint allegation code for racism, race, ethnicity or diversity. So how do you know how bad the problem is if you can't even really codify it when the public's coming forward with these complaints? The biggest issue here is not about individual officer attitudes, and so we are tackling those when they come up, the bigger issue is, what are the practises that are occurring that are leading to Maori being overrepresented in the criminal justice system? Some of that will be for police to own, and we're committed to doing that, Some of it is for other parts of the system, to ensure that we get different outcomes for Maori. So we are doing all of the right things to tackle this. - I think a lot of people would also argue that individual responsibility is important as well. Just finally, Commissioner, if I could just ask you, while police is going through this period of reflection and looking back at unbiased` unconscious bias within the force, have you looked back at your own career? Are there any examples where you've kind of taken a second look at anything you've done? - Look, I look back over my career, and what I have learned is that the victims and offenders that we deal with every day are grappling with a range of complicated issues that police is expected to try and resolve Our people work incredibly hard to do that. We don't always get it right. But what we are seeing is an increasing openness to the conversation about how we work differently. Our practises have changed massively. I'd point to things like Te Pai Oranga where we are diverting Maori away from the criminal justice system into a Marae-based intervention. - So you don't think you've ever been` You don't think you've ever been guilty of unconscious bias throughout your career? - Oh, look, I have seen instances of behaviour where I think we could have done better. - You personally. - Uh, th` - I have observed situations where I think we can do better and I have observed behaviours change significantly over time. I'm really confident of where we're going and I'm very confident of what our people are doing out there every day. - Thank you very much. We have to leave it there. Thank you very much, Police Commissioner Andrew Coster. So, that was Police Commissioner Andrew Coster there. Joining me now, criminal justice advocate Sir Ken Workman, and lawyer and academic, Litia Tuiburelevu. Thank you both very much for joining us. They're working on a national research project to investigate claims of racism in the police. And I'd like you to start with your hypothesis. How bad is it? - Well, we've known that that exists and we've known for 50 years. I mean, the Hunn Report in 1961 identified discriminatory practise across the whole of the criminal justice system. We've seen dozens of reports that have said the same thing. - So why do we need another one? - I think the difficulty is that most of those reports ended up on somebody's shelf and nobody really took the responsibility of doing anything about it. The research that the police are undertaking is exciting, and the first time I think that any government agency has taken this extra step of saying we seem to have unfairness, inequity in our system. Let's look at where that happens, why it happens, how it happens and what we can do to reduce it. So we're starting to really dig deep into the behaviour and in that culture and in the practises and policies that are there and really looking for evidence of bias, wherever it might be. So I think it is different. - And are you confident this year that this one will be different, it won't just end up on the shelf? That this will make a difference to Pasifika? - Uh, I mean, I am a little bit sceptical, as I am with most of these kind of reports where, I mean, if we're not centring systemic racism and we're failing to reckon with that and address the structural causes. I mean racism is embedded into the structure and the institution of police since, you know, the police came to Aotearoa, and that started, as, you know, an armed force that, you know, suppressed Maori resistance. And we've seen that repeat throughout history in the experiences of the tangata whenua, of Pasifika, and, you know, many others in the community, racism in policing. So I hope that narrative of racism and the colonial violence and white supremacy is centred in this, and we are able to reckon with that, as uncomfortable as it may be. - And then looking at some of the recent examples, I want to talk a bit about that. Those allegations of racial profiling, the police taking photos of rangatahi. How widespread do you think that is? And do you think that's an example of recent racism within the police force? - Well, it's certainly there, and we don't really know the extent, and I think that this is what this research might may find for us. I think it's important to recognise that Lisa's research is independent from that of the police. It's funded by the Borrin Foundation and it's looking at the overrepresentation of Pacific peoples in the criminal justice system. I'm excited by that, because while there has been research done into Maori, there's been very little into the Pacific island experience. And, you know, I think that Lisa's research will be an important part of it. - And I think as well, both Maori and Pacific communities, police disproportionately, compared to broad statistics, statistics use force. Why is that? Because the Police Commissioner is kind of saying, 'Well, it's because we're arresting more of them.' But is that the case or are they using more force against those communities? - Well, I mean, yes, they are using more force. And it is disproportionate because the system enables them to do that. And we've seen throughout history, I mean, with the dawn raids as kind of the` Very much, I think that that unfortunate situation that happened with the dawn raids was` Sowed the seeds of intergenerational distrust between Pasifika and Police, and the way that they use violence and coercion and control. And we've seen that repeated throughout history, because the system and the state enables them to do that. And I mean, I know the Commissioner may talk about having, you know, there may be good cops, and they may be nice and well-intentioned, but that's not how ` particularly, you know, a young Pasifika man or a young man relates to police. They see them as an agent of the state, and there is a complete power imbalance there. And they're able to use force against them, and often they do. - And one of the core tenets of policing is stopping people who look suspicious, which seems fairly open to interpretation. Do you think` I mean, how much do you think unconscious bias or racism, Sir Kim, factors into to that kind of stopping people of people who look... - Look, I think I think it is a significant feature. I'm just talking to a Maori woman who holds a high position as a strategic adviser who bought an Audi motor car and was stopped eight times by the police in two months. So she's since downsized, you know, but those sort of microaggressions that occur day in and day out, in effect, have just as much impact as the use of physical violence on the Maori community. And while, you know, it can be argued that, well, because Maori are more likely to be engaged in criminal activity because are the lower end of the socioeconomic spectrum and they live in communities where there is high crime, that's no excuse, you know, for treating Maori as though they were some sort of dark underclass. So you often get situations in which Maori, you know, the precept that occurs in the mind of enforcement is that they are more likely to be involved in crime than non-white, and are treated accordingly. So I think, you know, we sort of know that. What we don't know is why it's happening, to what extent is it that we have a race, racism and in our society generally? I just read research from Whanganui which talks about the shopping experience of Maori and the fact that most Maori get stopped. And, you know, there was one Samoan woman, a lawyer, who talked about not taking her bag into a shops, because inevitably they were searched. Now, if that attitude prevails across society, it probably prevails across the police. - Mm. - And I think we need to take that into account as well. - So when will this research project be complete, and what kind of guarantees have you got from police that if there are recommendations, that those things will be acted on? We're going to see this as a pivotal moment in New Zealand? - Right. Well, my role as chair of the independent panel, which actually is involved with the police and their research and their biased research and, you know, I have the authority to commission additional research if I think it's necessary to challenge the research that's being done, which is being done by the University of Waikato. And I'm excited by this because it's sort of in a way, the police are well-prepared for this because the work of Deputy Commissioner Haumaha over the last decade really in developing, I guess, a culturally competent police paves the way for us to do this research in a safe way, and I you know, I have a great admiration for the commissioner for being prepared to take this additional step. - Yeah, and we're all very excited about talking to you both more about the progress and also about the action from police when it comes out. Thank you so much for joining us this morning, Sir Kim Workman and Litia Tuiburelevu. Thank you very much. - Thank you. - E whai ake nei, our political panel joins us after the break. - Welcome back. I'm joined now by our panel ` former New Zealand First MP Jenny Marcroft, Waipareira Trust CEO, John Tamihere, and Pou Tiaki editor for Stuff, Carmen Parahi. Kia ora koutou. Thank you very much for joining me. I want to start with you, JT, because of your very special connection to the Maori Development Minister, who you were calling the Minister of Nothing before you came on our panel. - (LAUGHTER) - What did you make` Do you think that` that those Maori ministers, that strong Maori mandate within the party is actually achieving enough for Maori? - Oh, look, you made the point that we'll know come the first budget of this government in May. And (CLEARS THROAT) it all comes down to what resources will be devolved and transferred across to our own self-management. And if you look at a whole range of programmes ` Oranga Tamariki, particularly ` for the last 30 years, all` all resources have gone into non-Maori organisations to build capacity and capability, when` when really we have to fix our own problems up, and to do that, that resourcing would be very helpful to us. So just the racism behind funding there. So he's going to have to unwind that. So is this government in regard to MSD. You see, cos` cos poor cops. They're caught in the middle here, because they don't` they're not there to play tiddlywinks either, but they're caught and having to fix up a whole range of things created by poverty. You know, 80% of the women in the prison at the moment ` largest indigenous prison` imprisoned population in the world ` are there for crimes of dishonesty. That's` They're crimes of poverty. - Well, yeah, can I just put you up on 'poor cops?' - Yeah. - Carmen, do you think` do you think 'poor cops', cos yes to an extent, but also unconscious bias within the police. We know that's there. Strong allegations of systemic racism. Are police actually policing too hard when it comes to Maori and Pasifika communities? - (SIGHS) They are policing too hard. The problem with Andrew Coster, as we heard, is that he refused to even say the word` use the word 'racism'. He` I don't even think he used the word 'bias', and so he's trying to level it out and say it's not about individual cops. JT's right. It is really difficult for police to police. They are caught in trying to manage communities that are really struggling with poverty, poverty caused by colonisation, for Maori that is, and so that's the difficulty for them. And yes, there is a race` For him to` For Coster to say there's no individual racist police officer when you pulled him up about the, um, set, I thought that was deceptive of him, and I think he didn't address the issue at all, and he refused to even look at his own bias and, um, confirm with us whether he actually has looked at it, and if he's not willing to take leadership here and just understand his own policing, his own thinking around what he's done throughout his career, how is he supposed to roll out all these changes they're trying to` - Exactly, because can you address a problem, Jenny, if you don't even acknowledge that the problem exists? - I think he can go back to the` take a page out of the book from the doctor in Whangarei who looked at his own conscious` unconscious bias, and what he did was he listed his patients, pakeha patients, and the medicines that he prescribed to them. On the other side of the page, he listed his Maori patients and the lack of medicines he prescribed for the same problems, and he did not realise, because he didn't think he had any kind of racism or an unconscious bias operating until he actually wrote it down on paper. So I think that is something` Its's all very well to have a one-hour workshop, for example, to look at bias, but it's until you have self-awareness that you're able to make a change internally, and then from there, an organisation can have that ripple effect, like on a pond. - We need the data, right? So Jenny was right. - Mm. - It wasn't until the doctor actually looked at his own stuff, saw the data for himself, saw the numbers. Part of the problem with the police as they've had the numbers for bloody` for years and years. - This is why we're all pulling our hair out, because we keep seeing these reports. We know what's wrong, right? - Yeah, well, I take a different line in regard to systemic racism. See, I think racists run systems, and I just don't` I just don't buy this thing called` 'Because this is amorphous mess over there that's systemic'. It's not true. Different individuals, from Coster down, make decisions, and when individuals make decisions that adversely impact on you by multiply charging Maori four times more than non-Maori, locking us up three times more for the same offences. - Disproportionately. - Well, we want one` We want one law for all. You've heard this before. We want one law for all. If you're up north where Jen's from, you know, there's a paedophile ring ` all white guys, well off ` 15-year-old Maori girl involved, had been passed around. They get home detention. You know, if that was` if that was a Maori ring doing that, all hell would be breaking loose. - Absolutely. There's an unequal application of criminal justice in New Zealand. There's no denying it, and it goes back` it goes back to the 1800s, and so it's time` you know, and I think society's actually ready to look at it. How do we make these changes that go back, that are historical, the historical trauma that's been caused through colonisation? - It's fortified as well, isn't it, by everyday racism, and there was a study that came out recently that said 93% of Maori endured racism every single day, casual racism. Have you guys got personal experience with this? - Oh, heaps. - (LAUGHTER) - Yeah, 'Uh, yeah'. - Yeah, yeah. - Every day, do you feel like you encounter racism, Carmen? - I see it sometimes with my kids, who` stuff that happens to them at school. We always ask their school to check to ensure that how they're working with Maori kids is the same as how they're working with non-Maori kids. - Right, shouldn't have to. - You shouldn't have to, but you do, because they may` they` again, they might not be aware of what they're doing. So you do have to look at the data. You do actually have to look at the facts and understand what it is that you're doing, because sometimes you just don't know. So when we did the work at Stuff and investigated ourselves and looked at whether we'd been racist in our past, we actually had to help our reporters understand what we were seeing. We saw the stuff, but we didn't understand what we were seeing, and so you actually have to make people understand what is racism, what is the bias, what am I bringing in here, what am I seeing, how am I perpetuating things that happen? - I think that's something that we all need to bear in mind, and I'm so sorry, JT. I know you want to know more, but we are gonna have to leave it there. - It's good. It's cool. - Thank you very much, all of you, for your time. Carmen Parahi, John Tamihere, and Jenny Marcroft, kia ora koutou. - Kia ora. - Stay with us. We're back after the break. - Welcome back. We're with our panel. Let's continue where we left off, guys. I think, JT, you wanted to talk a bit about unconscious bias. - Yeah, well, we've got to be very careful about this. We've got to call out racism when you see it ` doesn't matter whether it's in the media or elsewhere, and to suggest that it's unconscious, the day that has major adverse impacts on another human being because of the way in which their colour, or their culture, or their creed is, you have to call that out. That's not unconscious. Babies are not born in New Zealand to dislike people of colour. They're taught, and` so we're going to` we have to stop that, and to do that, you have to be overtly honest about it. - Get rid of those euphemisms. Call it out for what it is. - Get out. Yeah, get rid of it, and just be honest with one another that that's just wrong, what you're doing. Your conduct's wrong in the way you're treating that person. In terms of the way an arrest might occur, or the way in which you're` you're policing, or the way in which you're representing an agency that is supposed to bring help to other members of the New Zealand public, but you're doing it in a different way to this person because of the way they look, and that's wrong. And we've got to call it out, so it's not unconscious; that is a conscious effort. Just like systemic racism, there's not systemic racism; there are racists that run systems. - And Jenny, are you one of those 93% of Maori who endure everyday racism? - Not me personally, but I've certainly seen it in my family. My uncle Manuera Tohu, he was` his name was changed when he went to school. So the teachers couldn't say 'Manuera', so his name became Bill. You know, so when you change a person's name, you change and damage the psyche of that individual, and that has ripple effects over` over generations. So, yes, you know, my father was beaten for speaking Maori. I think everyone's family` we all here on this panel have stories like that, so it's not unusual, but it's time for this to stop. - And it` there was devastating news this week that Labour MP Kiritapu Allan has taken leave from` from Parliament with stage three cervical cancer. How did that` How did that news rock you guys? Jenny, if you want to talk about this. - Well, I spend three years in the last parliament with Kiri, and she's an amazing woman. She is strong, she is courageous,, and she has got very much an uphill battle on her hands. But she's going to hunker down, take the time she needs. She'll be surrounded in` You know, she'll have quite a korowai of aroha from her whanau protecting her, and she'll be able to fight this because she has got an incredible spirit. One thing that I'm really amazed with` what she did with her Facebook post that she did was she asked` You know, people have said, you know, 'How can` How can we help?' and she said, 'Go and get a smear'. So she turned it around and said, 'Use this to get all our wahine in to have their smear'. So 'smear your mea', that's the campaign that she's alluded to with` well, not alluded to, pointed out that Talei Morrison, who lost her life to cervical cancer` cancer, empowering Maori women, encouraging them to go and get their smear test. Very powerful message that she gave at a time when her health is really under attack. - And Kiritapu's widely` You know, she is widely acknowledged by pretty well everyone as such an asset for this government. JT` - She's a big` Look, her stepping down is a big loss... - Temporary. - ...to the parliament, to the cabinet and to the Labour Party. She brings a level of, um, lived experience that doesn't often get into parliament, let alone cabinet. She comes from` She comes from a very difficult upbringing, very large family, very poor family from the coast. So` So to have her stricken by this illness is quite` is` it's a big hit for Labour Party, for that cabinet, and for this government because of` of what she brings to the game, right, And she's very energetic, very bubbly, very positive approach, and it just` It was a lightning strike out of the blue, wasn't? - Yeah. Well, she won a general seat, so because of that, that means she's got popularity across Maori and non-Maori. I don't think she would have liked to have been in the position where she is now the face of cervical cancer in New Zealand, particularly for Maori. The registrations are twice for Maori as non`Maori, and the deaths of two-and-a-half times. So it's going to be a hard battle. Like` Like Jen said, we` there is a korowai of aroha around her, which is really good. She's got age, um, on her side. She has got the ability to be able to fight this, as well, because she is in parliament. So there is the money there, because poverty is actually one of the problems that we have in the health` that we have that helps create those inequities in healthcare for Maori. So she` She's got a lot of things going for her to help with this, but we wish her all the best. We really do. - And incredible to think on that day of the tsunamis and the earthquakes, that she was up there grappling with her personal situation, but also guiding the country through this. - But it's what women do, though, eh? - It is` It is. - (LAUGHTER) - Things are happening. Lot of things happening at home, in the whare, but you just deal with it, right? - But` And this isn't about portioning blame or anything, but is there` Do we need to take more pastoral care for busy women, busy people, and ensure that, you know, people are able to put their health first as well. - Well, it's innate in women to put your children, your partner, your grandparents, your parents before your own needs. It's just who we are as women. And it's saying` You know, there's` I love the analogy of the best chop. You know, when you're handing out the chops at dinner time, you get yourself the little shrivelled up one, and you give everyone else the good chop. It's time for women to take the best job. - And Ayesha Verrall, Peni Henare and Kris Faafoi, are they gonna` Are they the right people to cover those portfolios while she's off? - Well, time will tell. - (LAUGHTER) - Oh, absolutely, you know, I think that there's` there's a good back-up for her. Also, too, Meka will be stepping in, and she's a very capable woman as well. - All right, so Jenny Marcroft's got your back. JT's got his eye on you. Carmen Parahi,... wait and see? - Yeah. - Yeah, all right, kia ora koutou. Thank you very much for joining us, Jenny Marcroft, John Tamihere and Carmen Parahi. Kia ora. That's all from us for today. Thanks for watching, and a heads up ` Simon's on leave, but I won't be alone here at the studio desk next week. Joining me will be a very special first-time guest co-host. Keep an eye on our social media next week for more. Nga mihi nui. See you then. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 - SIMON: This programme was made with the assistance of the NZ on Air Platinum Fund.