TOVA: Today on Newshub Nation ` global flashpoints, rivals and allies. Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta. Desperation ` a Uyghur New Zealander calls for help to find her brother. And the inconvenient Anzac story you might not have heard. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 Kia ora, good morning. I'm Tova O'Brien. Welcome to Newshub Nation. In news and politics this week ` all DHBs will be scrapped within three years and brought under one new national authority called Health NZ. A separate Maori health authority with commissioning power will also be established. Travel between New Zealand and Western Australia has been paused after a three day lockdown was announced in Perth. COVID Minister Chris Hipkins says both countries have planned for this kind of scenario. And there was one new case of COVID in the New Zealand community this week ` an Auckland airport worker tested positive after cleaning a plane that flew from Australia. Close contacts have so far tested negative. It's Anzac weekend, and in today's show, we're looking at New Zealand's place in the world ` our allies, our rivals, and our position on important global issues. With me now is Rizwangul Nur Muhammad. She's a New Zealand citizen and Fulbright scholar caught up in one of the world's humanitarian flashpoints ` China's persecution of its minority Uyghur people, including her family. Thanks for joining us, Riz. I really appreciate your time. You're from Xinjiang. You're one of many Uyghur New Zealanders who have had family disappear. Your brother was arrested four years ago. Do you know how he's being treated? - Thank you for having me. But at the moment, I have no clue about his current situation. - When was the last time you spoke to him? - The last time I spoke to him directly was January 2017. - And if you could speak to him now, what would you say? - Oh. For the last four years since his arrest in January 2017, I haven't had any chance to speak to him directly. - And do you know why he was arrested? Do you know if he was given a fair trial? - No. As far as I know, there has been no fair trial. There has been no due process. I have not got, like, you know, the reason why he was arrested. But what I can assume is that the reason could be he visited Turkey. - And do you know what happens in those detention centres in Xinjiang? - Based on the research, recent research in the government documents and data from China, as well as the testimonies given by the former detainees and the relatives of those Uyghurs who are detained in China ` and those resources have indicated that there has been a merciless, inhuman treatment in those, as they say, like concentration camp or prisons. At least I can say that there has been like sleep deprivation, malnutrition, inhuman treatment in any form. It has been carrying on. That's why I'm really worrying about my brother's physical as well as mental health. - I can't imagine how terrifying that would be ` just to not have any word. - Exactly. I mean, even me here, you know, living in a free world, I have been experiencing this depression, anxiety. I can't imagine how my family back home ` they are coping with this. - And you're a New Zealand citizen. You've sought help from the New Zealand government. What have you asked them to do? - I have approached New Zealand government back in 2019. I was looking for a resolution. I appreciate that New Zealand government has approached the Chinese embassy here in New Zealand to seek information about my brother but, um, but they met the Chinese embassy in March 200` Last year. - Last year. - 2020, but since then nothing much happened. - And are they staying in touch with you? Are they telling you what's going on behind the scenes? When you might expect some kind of resolution? - Not really. In November last year, our foreign minister Nanaia Mahuta ` she stated that they had been offering consulate-level assistance to me, but I'm not really getting any. I haven't been really experiencing it since March 2020. There is not much conversation, and they have said that, you know, they raised this issue ` like the general Uyghur issue, and then they raised` They have said that they raised my brother's issue to the Chinese government, but I don't know what they have been talking about. There is no transparency. - Mm, that lack of transparency. You don't know what's going on. They're not keeping you updated. - Exactly. And there are several emails` my emails that have been left unanswered to. - What do you think about what our government's doing compared to perhaps what some other governments are doing? We've heard stories about Marise Payne helping reunite some families of Uyghur Australians ` the Australian foreign minister. Do you think our government is doing enough compared to other countries? - No, not at all. Our government is not doing enough. Just take my brother's case as an example. When the Chinese embassy said to New Zealand government that, 'Hey, this is a domestic matter,' and literally saying that 'You have nothing to do with this', right? But New Zealand government is buying that. It's buying that. It's just making` just letting it, you know, happen, and then let the Chinese government just get away with it. This, actually, consequently, you know, embolden the Chinese government to do whatever they want to do. And this, again, consequently putting both me and my family in danger. - When you walk out of the studio this morning, you're going to walk past our foreign minister, Nanaia Mahuta. What is your message to her this morning? What would you like her to do? - I appreciate, again, you know, New Zealand government approached Chinese embassy, but there is a lot to do. A lot we can do, and we have to do it. And this is the reality ` we have to do it. We can't just turn a blind eye on this genocide. And they know everything about my brother's case. Like, specifically in terms of my brother's case, I would like to challenge our foreign minister. I would like to challenge that. Ask her to raise my brother's case specifically as a humanitarian issue to the highest level of the Chinese government. - Do that for you right now with our foreign minister. Thank you so much for your time, Riz Nur Muhammad. - Thank you. - Thank you. That was Kiwi Uyghur Riz Nur Muhammad. She's not the only one here in New Zealand caught up in Xinjiang's humanitarian crisis. Here are some stories told to us and Stuff circuit from other Uyghur New Zealanders desperately worried for their relatives in China, even their own safety here in New Zealand. - If I go back to China, I will die or disappear. I am the luckiest one. I survived. I don't know ` do I have any relatives alive or dead? - And I have lost a lot of connections to my relatives and my friends and families because they simply just disappeared. - With me now is Foreign Affairs Minister, Nanaia Mahuta. Minister, kia ora. Thank you for being here. You locked eyes with Riz Nur Muhammad on your way into the studio. She's a citizen. Have you done enough to find her brother? - Look, we can always do more. And it is important to note that at a country level, we have joined statements to express our concern and call on China to address the human rights issues that are happening in Xinjiang. Also at a prime ministerial level, the prime minister has raised it with the president, and I've recently made a joint statement with Australia. So, you know, it's important to remember that these are people and I think anyone listening to Riz would absolutely hear the concern in her voice, and that's why, in the most recent statement, we've called for an independent observer to get information from Xinjiang so we know exactly what's happening. - All of that's well and good. Those statements are important ` raising it to chief to chief between the prime minister with Beijing, her Beijing counterpart. What is any of that doing to help get Riz's brother back here in New Zealand? - Well, Riz's brother is a Chinese citizen, so it's really` - She's a New Zealand citizen. - She's a New Zealand citizen advocating on behalf of her brother, and we hear that, and her brother is a Chinese citizen. And it's really important, as we work through trying to get more information, we are working within the context that we can. We've called on China to accept that an independent observer can go in so that we can get more information. Riz needs information about where her brother is and how he's going, and I understand that. But again, he's a Chinese citizen. - China is hardly rushing to fling open its doors to the UN, though, isn't it? So at the moment, it is just lip service. What are you tangibly doing to help Riz and her family? - Well, this highlights the severity of, I think, families like Riz around the world are concerned about the well-being of their whanau and they don't have any information. And that's why we have joined broad statements and bilateral statements to call on China to do more. But again, MFAT has been, I understand, working with Riz to get information. - Not enough, according to Riz just now. She is not hearing from them. She doesn't get these kind of progress reports` - And we're only` We're one part of the solution. We are doing what we can within this context and with the Chinese embassy, because this is a Chinese citizen, to try and find out more information so that Riz can know how her brother's doing. These are difficult, difficult issues. - But, Minister, your counterpart in Australia, Marise Payne ` she has actually been able to reunite some Uyghur Australians with their families. Why haven't we been able to do the same for New Zealand Uyghurs? - Well, again, we're doing what we can do, and we absolutely hear Riz in terms of` - We're writing statements. - No, we're not. We're actually trying to find out more information. We're calling on China to appoint an independent observer so that we can get more information about the people whose families overseas, who are citizens in other countries, are wanting to find out more about them. - Yesterday in the House of Commons in the United Kingdom, they declared the situation in Xinjiang as genocide. They're joining other countries like the United States and Canada. Will we follow suit? - I understand that was the parliament's decision, but not the government's. So we're watching carefully what the government proposes to do on that issue. - You talk about an independent foreign policy a lot. So what are we going to do? - Yeah. Well, look, the last time we designated an act of genocide, prior to the Genocide Convention Act of 1948, was the Holocaust. And then we labelled both Cambodia and Rwanda as acts of genocide. Look, I'm willing to get information about what we could do in this instance` - So we're actively considering recognising genocide in Xinjiang? - I'm open to getting advice about this issue, but we have to remember also that there are real challenges of real people like Riz. And I think continuing to call on China to enable independent advisers to go into the country, in Xinjiang, would actually be a huge step forward. - You have acknowledged in that statement that you just talked about with Marise Payne ` you've acknowledged the human rights abuses. You recognise that measures have been imposed on Uyghur Muslims to prevent births, right? Forced sterilisation? - Mm. - Yeah. I mean, you have in that press statement. You also recognise that serious bodily or mental harm has been done to that ethnic and religious group? Yeah. - Well, you know, it was a joint statement where we were recognising a number of atrocities in Xinjiang. And that is the reason why we have consistently advocated for more to be done. And again, we're calling on China to act in the best interests of their people on these issues that are of concern to many countries, including New Zealand. - Do you also recognise, Minister, that children have been forced away from their families? Just yes or no. - I recognise that there are a number of human rights breaches that have been caused in Xinjiang. - Because those three things that you've recognised, you've just ticked three of the five boxes defining genocide, haven't you? - Well, what I'm doing is identifying ` and we've consistently done this in terms of Xinjian ` is consistently highlighting that New Zealand has highlighted the range of human rights atrocities that are happening there, calling on China to act, and also calling on China to enable an independent observer so that we can really understand what's happening. But more importantly, get information about these individuals, like Riz's brother, so that she can be consoled in knowing about what's happening with him ` how is he? - Do you own anything by Nike? - Mm. No, not to my knowledge, actually. Not for a long time. - Because Nike's been linked in a U.S. congressional report to forced labour in China. It said it has found no evidence of that, but The Washington Post reported on a factory making eight million pairs of shoes a year with labourers, including Uyghur women forced to be there. Would you want to own anything like that? - Yeah, look, I think consumers all the way around now are making more ethical choices about what they purchase. For example, in my trainers, I wear Allbirds ` supporting New Zealand manufactured goods. But that is absolutely an area where citizens, but also countries` companies are thinking about their responsible investment framework. - It's hard to know, though, isn't it? So, as a consumer and humanitarian, or even as a human, you want to know where those things are coming from, don't you? - I think so. More people do want to. And that just shows where the mood of opinion is shifting, too. But that's on a number of levels ` people are making ethical choices around their food preferences, around where their clothing comes from. - I want to focus more on this. Should we be banning products that come from Xinjiang? - We don't have a domestic regime where we can apply the types of sanctions. - Is it a problem that we don't have the domestic regime? - And the real issue for us, as well, is to ensure that we can engage with China as our major trading partner, while signalling that there are things that we cannot, will not and must not support, like in the human rights space. I said that in my speech. And there are a range of ways in which we can start to navigate the way in which that relationship, at a trading level, could exist. - And laws around modern slavery would help, wouldn't they? Australia has them, the U.K., the European Union, Canada. Why don't we? - Actually, Michael Wood is currently working on the process` - Looking into it, not doing it. - Looking into the policy aspects of the modern slavery legislation that could be adopted here in New Zealand. - OK. Labour's manifesto promises to prioritise a human rights approach to international affairs, and you've also committed to an indigenous approach. Here we have, in Xinjiang, egregious human rights abuses against a group of people that consider themselves indigenous. So I can't understand why you are not calling this out. - Let's be really clear ` there are all manners of human rights breaches across a number of countries. Yes, we have brought to attention the issues in Xinjiang. That's not to diminish what's happening there, but that's to acknowledge that there are severe human rights issues and they have to be dealt with in context. But there are a number of human rights breaches across a number of countries around the world, on a number of fronts. - One day` Well, we're talking specifically about this, and one day we're going to know exactly what's going on in Xinjiang, aren't we? And when you're a kuia talking to your great, great, great grand mokopuna about being the first wahine Maori foreign affairs minister, are you going to have any regrets? Are you confident that you're on the right side of history? - I'm confident that as an indigenous foreign minister, I understand the impact of colonisation. I'm confident that when my kids and their kids look at the things that I've done, I've done it to the best of my ability as an indigenous Maori woman, but also for the benefit of the country. And that is not easy. What I want to ensure is that as we message out the reason why we are talking about inclusiveness of indigenous peoples, it can have a positive contribution to the way in which a nation goes forward on a number of fronts. And that is where my focus is, absolutely. Because if we include indigenous peoples into the economic prosperity of a country in contributing, and addressing the significant, often historical, rights of those people, then we're building a better society. And that is the message I take forward in my role. - And recognising when those rights have been violated overseas. - Absolutely. And being able to draw on the instruments you have available to you in a diplomatic` with our diplomatic approach to be able to ensure that we can do the best that we can. And if we can do more, we will. - Kia ora, Minister. We're going to come back to you again after the break. There's still plenty to mull over. If you've got something to say about what you see on our show, let us know. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram ` Or email us at... On our Twitter panel this morning are Mark Thomas and Ed Amon. Still to come, the second half of our interview with Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta, and we'll ask her where on earth are Suhayra Aden and her children? In news and politics this week ` all DHBs will be scrapped within three years - Hoki mai ano. Turbulent times in foreign affairs. We've covered China's persecution of its Uyghur people; there are also second thoughts on China's Belt and Road; Australia 'taking its trash out'; Five Eyes friction; and where's Suhayra Aden. - New Zealand, frankly, is tired of having Australia export its problems. - Well, it's taking the trash out. - Look, Dutton's comments only serve to trash his own reputation. - Suhayra Aden. 26 years old and labelled a terrorist. The Aussies then cancelled Aden's citizenship behind our backs. - Their decision was wrong. Now there are two children involved. - Myanmar leader Aung San Suu Kyi has been arrested in an early morning raid in a military coup. - Aotearoa New Zealand's relationship with China is one of our most significant. - We are absolutely reaffirming our commitment to that Five Eyes partnership. - The taniwha and the dragon. Similar but different. Unique, able to adapt, and resilient. - New Zealand have sold their souls to Communist China. And why? Well, because lots of their exports go there. - Still with me to discuss all of that and more is Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta. Tena koe, minister. Thank you for staying with us. - Kia ora. - This reticence to call out China ` are you prioritising cash and trade over humanity and ethics? - What I'm saying is that New Zealand's relationship with China is significant in terms of exporting, and there are areas that we can't agree on, but we want to be respectable` respectful, consistent, and predictable in the way that we treat China. And that's going to be really important as, again, we're signalling to businesses you need deeper resilience, broader markets, as we navigate our way through this relationship. - And a few little digs in your speech on Monday at China. You pointedly said that New Zealand offers grants, not loans, to the Pacific. What's the problem with those Chinese loans? - Well, what we've found in the Pacific is that there are levels of vulnerability compounded by Covid-19, and the way in which aid goes into the Pacific is a concern. And if there is greater indebtedness of the Pacific, recovery will be very difficult. - What can you do beyond lip service to actually stop those loans? Because Pacific communities, Pacific countries need that cash. - The way that New Zealand provides overseas development assistance into the Pacific is a model that we believe can be looked to to try and build the long-term resilience. - We don't have that same kind of blank chequebook that the Chinese appear to. - No, we don't. And that's why we're asking those who are interested in the Pacific to think about the way in which they're building the long-term resilience of the Pacific, but also Pacific sovereignty, because the mana of each Pacific state matters to New Zealand, and it aids regional stability. - You also had a little nudge China in your speech over Hong Kong, Uyghurs, and cyber incidents. How many of those 100 or so each year state-sponsored cyber attacks on New Zealand, how many of them are by China? - Oh, look, I'm not prepared to disclose the detail of it. - We've called them out before. - Suffice to say that cyber attacks are becoming more prevalent and are of concern, and they are issues that must be dealt with in a structural way in terms of our legislation, but also in a very real way in terms of who's targeted and impacted. - And we saw those statements, that you had a wee chuckle when Nigel Farage was saying that you sold your soul to the Chinese. Have you got us kicked out of the Five Eyes spy club? - Oh, let's talk about the relationship with China, firstly. It's important that we continue to act in a way that is respectful, consistent, and predictable, because there are significant relationships between New Zealand businesses and China, but also there's people-to-people relationships. - Are we prioritising that at the expense our other allies? - It's not that binary, and it's not that simple. And I think the overreaction to the dragon and taniwha analogy or metaphor, I think became kind of reflective of, I guess, how polarised the view is about where New Zealand sees its relationship. We treat every relationship that we have with every country, big or small, in a respectful way, and we do not take it for granted. - You said you were uncomfortable expanding that Five Eyes remit. Why is that? - I said that we` you know, the Five Eyes is an important relationship. We contribute a lot to it, and we get a lot from it. But the framework is the security intelligence framework. And really, if we think about the nature of that relationship, it's not necessary on every issue all of the time to call on Five Eyes as the first port of call when we're making joint statements or declarations around things like human rights. - Is it also because Five Eyes have been too critical of China? - Actually, it's because New Zealand is reflecting how we see different relationships. It's a security intelligence relationship. New Zealand has an independent foreign policy. It's not necessary all the time on every issue to invoke the Five Eyes framework on issues such as human rights. - Were you surprised by that backlash, then, to your speech on Monday? - When I look deeper into the nature of the comments and, I guess, the criticism of the metaphors I was using, there was not a general acceptance that New Zealand, in how it sees itself, has matured as well. You know, the metaphor of a dragon and a taniwha is a sign that we have matured as a country, that when we talk about the treaty in our foreign policy, we're talking about the nature of our democracy, and we're talking about how we can learn from our past to be able to not only contribute to building a better society, but a global community, and what that perspective could add to that kind of conversation. - It's not just not signing up to those Five Eyes statements, though, is it? It's the fact that we kind of appear to be burying our head in the sand when our allies are, for example, calling out genocide in Xinjiang. - Let's be very clear. We have often signed up to Five Eyes statements for the appropriate reasons. But as I said, it's not necessary on every issue all the time to invoke the Five Eyes framework on matters such as human rights. - Are we worried that we're going to face similar repercussions that Australia has for being critical? $20 billion wiped off. - From? - From China? - No. No, because we` As I say, the way in which we see the relationship going forward is in a respectful, predictable, consistent way. And at the same time, we've signalled to New Zealand businesses now, because of Covid as well, we need to think about deeper resilience within the way that their exporting to various markets and look for diversity. It's an important thing to do. - Let's move on to Suhayra Aden, the dual Kiwi New Zealand citizen who was arrested in Turkey, has been detained in Turkey because of her alleged links to the Islamic State with her two children. Where will Suhayra Aden end up ` here or Australia? - Look, there are a number of complex issues, as I've already said, that we're continuing to work through on this particular matter. - Is your sense that Australia has drawn a line on this one? - Australia made a decision to strip citizenship. We've raised that at the time` - Will she be returning to Australia? - We've raised that at the time with the Australian authorities, and just recently in my bilateral with Minister Payne. Our prime ministers have signalled that we want to work closely together around the complex issues and the nature of what a reintegration, repatriation option starts to look like. And care of the children have always been uppermost in our mind. - I'll ask you a bit more about that. But can you hand on heart say that there is a chance that Suhayra Aden and/or her children will end up going back to Australia? There's even a chance of it? Or has Australia just said, 'No-go'? - Look, these are part of the complex issues that we're trying to work through. What are the potential opportunities? But in the event that reintegration happens, either way, to Australia or New Zealand, and this is the complexity of the issues, we want to make sure that we're really aware about what successful reintegration can and should look like. This is where the care of the children aspects come in. Where are their centre of gravity? Where's their whanau support? - Yeah. - How can we provide a better network or supportive network? - It's not in Turkey, is it? And that's where they are now. What's your understanding of`? - Covid's also making it difficult for them to be brought back tomorrow. That quite simply. Travel routes and patterns and, you know, it's not that easy to travel from anywhere to another place. - So that's the excuse? We can't get her on a plane. - No, no, no, no. Look. We are working with the Turkish authorities and the Australian authorities on very complex issues. The Turkish authorities know that we are trying to ensure that we are very deliberate about our next steps. And they understand where we're at. - Because initially Turkey was talking about just deporting her. - As I say, we're working` - This Covid excuse seems to be` - We're working we're working very closely with the Turkish authorities. They're aware of where we're at. - What's your understanding about how those children are being cared for? Are they getting enough food? Have they got shelter? Are they getting educated? Have they got access to medical care? - Look, the reports coming to me, and I have asked, and this was` - You don't know yet. - The report's coming to me, and I had asked early on about the` - (SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) - Yes. About the care of the children, and the status update` - Is Turkey not releasing that information? - If you let me answer, Tova. If you let me answer so that people can understand the nature of our concern for the children. The concern for the children was around their health and wellbeing. And the most recent update of reports that I have is that they are doing well where they are. - OK, good. Is it important to keep Turkey onside while we deal with that complex issue of Suhayra Aden and her family? - It's important, absolutely, because as you would expect, we would be in conversation quite frequently with the Turkish authorities about the way in which we're working through the complex issues in this case. - So we don't want to raise the ire of Turkey right now? - Look, this is about dealing with the issues in relation to the particular case. The Turkish authorities are aware of what we're doing in this instance. - Because Turkey also insists that the Armenian genocide didn't happen. It tends to get cross with anyone who did. But up to 1.5 million Armenians, Greek, and other indigenous people were killed. That's genocide, right? - Those are issues that have been recognised as a real challenge historically and, importantly, going forward for Turkey and the Armenians. It's what the next steps going forward looks like. That's why I say New Zealand is not without conscience on these issues, to the extent that we have been through, and are currently going through, a process of working through historical wrongs and a reconciliation process and focussing on nation building. Comparatively, it could be seen as somewhat different. But in terms of the steps that you must go through in order to be able to have a better society, I think there are aspects of our experience that give us the ability and insight to have empathy, but also recognising what a way forward could look like. - And do you recognise the Armenian genocide as genocide? - Look, it's not a matter of whether I recognise it. It's really a matter of ensuring that the Turkish government and the Armenian people are able to work through what their society can look like going forward. I'm sure, you know, at a real level, that that is a very important focus, because we're talking about how people live their lives today. - Absolutely. But a lot of other countries ` the United States, parts of Australia, parts of the UK, Canada ` they've all recognised it. US President Joe Biden is expected to recognise it as a genocide today. Why aren't we? Why the dilly-dally? - Look, there are a number of complex issues around these things that I'm able to take advice on. But, you know, as the Foreign Minister, I really want to make sure that we're building greater stability and peace. And there is a place and an importance of recognising these atrocities. And there's a place to ensure that greater harmony and a better society can be built as a result of it. And that is a pathway. - Recognition. I'm really struggling to see through your indigenous lens, though. - No, my indigenous lens is clear and it speaks from a base of lived experience. - And what about those indigenous people`? - It's easy for others to make` - The 1.5 million. - If you let me speak. It's easy for others to make comments about what others should be doing, not looking at themselves first as to what they have done. And what I know is in order to get genuine reconciliation, it's really important to ensure that in identifying the atrocities or the extent of the wrongs caused, that there is also a pathway around building a better future. They go hand in hand. It's not one or the other, and it's not that binary. - I agree. We look forward to seeing both of those things happen. Kia ora, minister. - Kia ora. Thank you very much, Nanaia Mahuta, our Foreign Affairs minister. Up next, analysis from our bumper political panel ` Aliya Danzeisen, Anna Fifield, and Sir Don McKinnon. Plus, the Armenian genocide. The US is poised to formally recognise it. Why aren't we? - Welcome back. I'm joined now by our panel ` Muslim leader Aliya Danzeisen of the Islamic Women's Council; Stuff Wellington editor, former Beijing bureau chief for The Washington Post, Anna Fifield; and Sir Don McKinnon, former foreign affairs minister and deputy prime minister, current chair of the New Zealand China Council. Tena koutou. Thank you all very much for joining us. Anna, I want to start with you, because you've been in Xinjiang as recently as 2020. What did you see there? - Right. I visited Xinjiang in September last year before I left China, and it was really chilling what I saw. We've heard over the past three or four years the reports of re-education centres, what China calls 'vocational training' for Uighur Muslims from the region. All of that is pretty much gone now. And instead, they have erected these huge prisons. They look exactly like prisons. They don't have any of the soccer fields and things you might associate with the 'rehabilitation' that China says is going on. And this is really an effort by the Chinese Communist Party now to clamp down and to keep the Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang under control with the threat of a criminal prison, kind of, term if they do anything that is considered secessionist or unsettling to the stability of the Chinese Communist Party. So things have changed. They have moved on, but they are becoming even more frightening. So I was really taken by what the Minister just said about how she's calling on China to do the right thing by its people. It's the Chinese Communist Party that is perpetuating, that has created the systems, with the specific purpose of suppressing their own people there, the Xinjiang people. - Is there too much calling not enough doing, Sir Don? - Well, it's one of those` It is a very difficult issue because you're dealing with a large portion of China. You're dealing with the New Zealand-China relationship at the same time. What I've been saying myself to the Chinese leadership, 'Look, you are an economic superpower now.' 'When you're an economic superpower, you've got to stop playing as a reminder third-world country. 'You should be far more transparent. You know, it is time to grow up. It is time to be more magnanimous. 'Tell people to come and see what you're doing, open yourself to the world. 'If you really want to play a major part in the world, 'you can't just close off chunks of your country to the rest of the world.' - And, Aliya, do think that our government's been remiss in not declaring a genocide in Xinjiang in the way that other countries have? - Well, I think that our government needs to put more pressure. And Anna's right. We always have to walk our talk. We have been talking human rights, and consistently. That's one thing that New Zealand has consistently been talking about ` human rights. It's not something new, and it's not just because of economic gain that perhaps some other countries have been pushing on just recently. So New Zealand has been good on that. The thing that China needs to do, and I agree, if they want to step up and be that world leader that they want, they've got to get their human rights correct. And in this case, it's indigenous populations that are being side-lined and being quieted, and it looks like killed. And you've seen in the prisons, they have signed UN agreements. And it's not just New Zealand that needs to get it right. It's also all the other countries that have signed on to those human rights conventions. And there are six that China has signed on to ` women, the treatment of women; discrimination, including indigenous populations. And so everybody, all countries need to up their game on this. And if China wants to be at the forefront, then they need to be at the forefront of quality around every aspect. And if New Zealand wants to actually be the human rights mandate that we have here, everybody in the world deserves it, then they need to step up as well. - And all of this is up here, at this level, isn't it? And then you talk to Riz, and that's the human face of what's going on. What should the government be doing? And is it doing enough? It's really hard to tell if it's doing enough at a consular level to help her and her brother. - Right. Look, there is a limit to what New Zealand can do. Her brother is a Chinese citizen. But the fact that it hasn't reached that limit, and we heard Nanaia Mahuta say repeatedly that her government has talked about the issue of Xinjiang. She's never raised the issue of Riz Nurmuhammed's brother. They have never said his name. They have never pressed specifically on that. And we have actually seen situations where in Australia, where there are Australian Uighurs, have raised the case of their family members who are not Australian citizens. They have been able to get some pressure on the Chinese government and have those people released from prisons. They can't leave Xinjiang or leave China, but they can at least go home to their families. So there is certainly a lot more that we can do to help Riz and her brother, and our New Zealand connection to this issue. - As a former foreign affairs minister, do you agree? Could Nanaia Mahuta be doing more? - Well, you do expect ` though you didn't ask Nanaia the question ` is the embassy in Beijing doing extra? And I would expect them to be doing so. They're the ones who are there. They are the ones who talk to officials. They are the ones who` - They can be pushed by the minister, can't they? - You could be knocking on their door every day, you know. In New Zealand, we're rather lucky that` There's few countries in the world where an individual, like Rizwa, can actually approach the foreign minister and have that issue elevated the way it is. And that's a very good thing. Nanaia probably has six or eight of those around the world right now. And she's always got to be balancing how much effort do you put into any one of those. But I would expect the embassy in Beijing to be asking questions pretty much daily. - What about those issues around modern slavery? We heard from the minister they're doing some work on it, but New Zealand is a bit behind the eight ball in terms of having actual legislation. Should there be an outright ban on products or supply chain that's come from Xinjiang, Aliya? - I think that we need to look at those products, and I think that we need as a country` Which was good that Nanaia called for diversification of our country. But we have to look for ethical products, and we need to look for ethical behaviour across the board. Companies. Companies themselves need to reflect on it. And we as a nation should be looking at the companies and asking them why they're not expecting human rights, and that everybody is choosing to work there rather than being forced to work there. There are allegations of force. I would like to see a UN commission going in and checking out all of this and checking on these people. So everybody's calling on these people and their human rights. Let's see them. Let's be able to visit them. Open it up so that people know that, you know, you're saying, 'Oh, it's not happening.' Well, then open it up and let people see. - And it was your reporting, Anna, in The Washington Post about that factory where shoes were being made. 8 million pairs a year. Hundreds of Uighur women being forced into these factories. What are you not`? Because Nike has refuted a lot of those claims, haven't they? - Initially, yes. I mean, Nike said they didn't know, and this contractor ` it was a South Korean company working in China ` had all of these thousands of Uighur women working in there. It was very easy to see them walking around in the factory and things. And they denied that they were using Uighur labour until I presented them with the facts. And then they have now taken efforts to stop doing that and to make sure that they are not using this kind of forced labour. But often it's very, very difficult. And the Stuff Circuit documentary that you played from before has shown that even New Zealand has links, you know, through a very elongated chain. But it's incumbent on us to do our due diligence and to make sure that there is not this forced labour anywhere along our supply chains. - It's hard to do due diligence` - We've been chasing child labour issues for 30 years, and I've done it in Pakistan and Bangladesh, India, Indonesia. It's something we are attracted to. So` - Why didn't your government legislate on it, then, back way when? - It's a case of more finding out the information. It's one thing reading something. It's another thing finding out is this actually happening. Are they hiding it? Is it something that comes and goes on a regular basis? Are kids taken out of school? That sort of thing. - It puts the onus on the companies, though, doesn't it? - You've gotta go and see them. To actually go through and monitor and report. - It was through a Google search that the Stuff journalists were able to find these New Zealand links to these companies. So, yes, it does take some schlepp work, but it's not that hard. It's not classified information. - Modern slavery legislation. Do we need it? - It'll probably emerge. It'll probably emerge, yes. - And do you think, Sir Don, that there's a degree of reticence to call out China by our government because of those trade ties? Because it is our biggest trade partner. - Look, calling out a government face-to-face is one thing. Calling them out through a headline in your newspaper is an entirely different level. And I would think, from my time and what I've seen of the minister so far, she is raising these issues on a very regular basis. Make a headline of that ` that's when you run into a real test of your agility to manage those things. - It's not just headlines, though, is it? We're seeing it in parliaments around the world. Do you think that New Zealand's being too differential to China, Anna? - I don't think we're being too deferential. I mean, for one thing, I think the minister has been really consumed by the local government portfolios. So I've been thrilled to see her this week actually talking about foreign affairs and talking about China. I thought the speech actually on the whole was quite good. She's painting a broad picture, setting down the markers, talking about areas of cooperation, but also things like Pacific and the debt traps and calling out China for that. I think she is painting a vision of a more mature relationship, where size doesn't make a difference in terms of how we operate with each other. But the thing is, China doesn't work in that way. China is a bully towards other countries in this kind of situation. China literally takes hostages from Canada, from Australia, to make its political points. So, you know, it takes two to tango. We can say we want a mature relationship, but how are we going to get China to treat us equally like that? - Yeah, I saw that speech in the same way. She was calling out China, setting forward a new mature relationship, and then those kind of post-match comments talking about how she was uncomfortable with the expanding remit of Five Eyes. We don't owe Five Eyes or China anything, do we? We can chart these independent courses. - Definitely, and I think that Nanaia Mahuta is probably from birth designed to be a diplomat, and she is the person who will know how to navigate very challenging situations against big powers. And so she's actually possibly the right person to be there at this time and to give the smaller voices a place at the table. And so she started it this week. She did raise a lot of issues in that speech. People grabbed a few headlines. Five Eyes also needs to have a look at it. There are questions. They opened up how terrorism was defined, and some of these issues were opened from that definition. And so the idea that she's willing to diversify, to talk to other people and get a wide perspective is also quality diplomacy. And so I've been impressed with what's been said. Now we need to take it further and have those dialogues and open discussions at the table with these people. - It's been so wonderful to have all of your thoughts this morning. Thank you all very much for joining us. Sir Don McKinnon, Anna Fifield, and Aliya Danzeisen. Kia ora koutou. - OTHERS: Kia ora. - Up next, it's Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day today. The US is preparing to formally recognise it. So why aren't we? - Welcome back. Our next story comes with a warning. It contains disturbing images. Because today, April 24th, is Armenian Genocide Remembrance Day. The mass killings began in 1915, one day before Anzac soldiers landed at Gallipoli. No New Zealand government has ever officially recognised the genocide. U.S. President Joe Biden has promised to formally recognise it today, possibly even coming` in the coming hours. So will we do the same? Tony Wright reports. - Atop the cliffs of Wellington's rugged southern coastline stands a memorial to a general at Gallipoli, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who later became the first president of the Republic of Turkey. It's one of the only memorials to a foreign leader that stands in New Zealand and was built in 1990 to appease Turkey, despite protests from local iwi Ngati Tara as a Maori archaeological site was nearby. It was also opposed by people within the Wellington, Cypriot and Greek communities because of their view of Ataturk as a mass murderer. - Certainly New Zealand doesn't have anything erected for Mussolini or Hitler or the Hutu regime in Rwanda. - Auckland University lecturer Maria Armoudian says Ataturk was the architect of the second wave of mass killings against Armenian, Greek and other indigenous peoples following World War I that eventually killed up to 1.5 million people. - We're talking about children and women and elderly people being bludgeoned to death with everyday weapons ` axes, hammers, you know, knives, bricks. As well as traditional weapons ` thrown into the sea, pushed into buildings, burned alive, drowned with their arms and legs broken so that they couldn't save themselves. This was one of the most brutal chapters in human history. - This genocide was front page news in New Zealand newspapers a century ago, and was even used as an excuse to keep the war going. London-based Kiwi historian James Robbins has written an award-winning book, When We Dead Awaken, which examines the many ANZAC links to the mass killings. - Just beyond the front lines at Gallipoli, there was a genocide taking place, and Anzac soldiers witnessed this and wrote about it and took those stories home with them. - Robbins says Ataturk's actions were well known in New Zealand after the war, but have since disappeared from our history. - If you look at New Zealand newspapers from the early 1920s, when Kemal was coming to power, the New Zealand press referred to him as a dictator, and there was no qualms whatsoever about describing him for what he was. - Ataturk's monument also contains the famous Anzac mothers quote, which attributes these words to him ` - 'You, the mothers who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; 'your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. 'After having lost their lives on this land, they have become our sons as well.' - These words are used as part of many Anzac Day commemorations in New Zealand and Australia, and especially at Gallipoli, where the words are emblazoned on a memorial at Anzac Cove. The problem is research has found these iconic words don't belong to Ataturk at all. - Mustafa Kemal Ataturk did not say those words. He did not write them down. He did not think them at any point. So from a purely factual basis, the memorials in New Zealand and in Australia that bear that inscription and bear it underneath a depiction of his face are factually incorrect. There's simply no way around that. The question is whether you want the sentiment that it describes, which is a very admirable sentiment, described by somebody who was, in essence, a mass murderer. - New Zealand and Australia are among many nations who have yet to officially recognise the Armenian genocide. But among the 30 countries which do acknowledge it are Russia, France, Canada and Germany. A working group from the United Nations also acknowledged the genocide three years ago, which was refuted by Turkey. The United States Senate voted in favour of recognising the genocide in 2019, but the Trump administration rejected moves to formally acknowledge it. President Joe Biden has indicated he may correct this in the next few hours. - MARIA ARMOUDIAN: Biden seems to be the most transformational president the United States has seen in a very long time. We thought that would be Obama, but he is taking a very strong stand on human rights and civil rights. The rumour is that he will recognise the Armenian genocide. I can see that it is something that is important to him, but he'll have to balance that up against how much it might affect the relationship with Turkey. - And if New Zealand was to officially recognise the Armenian genocide, what might be Turkey's response? - In 2015, the foreign minister of Turkey stated very explicitly that any Australian or New Zealand representative who acknowledged the Armenian genocide or who used that word, 'genocide', would not be welcome at Gallipoli. - The Prime Minister refused to speak to Newshub Nation about the Armenian genocide this week, but Kiwi Armenians remain hopeful her government will eventually recognise it. - It's very easy for us to kind of be compartmentalised into 'the Armenian community', but I'm a New Zealander too, and I would be proud as a New Zealander if we did this. I mean, New Zealanders are people that stick up for human rights. We're one of the little guys. We stick up for other little guys. And to recognise this is part of what makes us Kiwi. - So while we acknowledge the Holocaust of the Jews, the Killing Fields of the Cambodian genocide, and the Rwandan genocide, New Zealand is yet to acknowledge the very genocide which is tied undeniably to our own history. - Stay with us. We're back after the break. - Welcome back. We're back with our panel ` Aliya Danzeisen, Anna Fifield, and Sir Don McKinnon. Thank you very much again for joining me. Let's start with Australia. Closest ally but not without tensions ` 501 deportees, Suhayra Aden, two kind of notable ones. Sir Don, do you think that we're diverging from Australia? - I've been worried about it for some time, and I am going to take you back, you know, some 30 years, at a time when New Zealanders and Australians go back and forwards, no visas, just a passport. Didn't matter where you were, you got the benefits of both countries. Slowly, those benefits for New Zealanders have been diminishing. It began in the late '80s. Got worse through the '90s. Social welfare benefits, visas were gonna be required, and I just see that this is something that the Australians are saying, 'Well, you are our cousin, but we just wanna keep you a little bit further away.' I've not seen anything come the other way in the last 20 years. And to some extent, I think we have diverged on issues like foreign policy and domestic policy and, clearly, on climate change. - And despite all of our stomping and the Prime Minister being very visibly angry, especially over the 501 deportees issue, Aliya, do you think Australia is just riding roughshod over our values? They don't actually care what we say. - They're not respecting our partnership. And as you say, a poor cousin. They're basically putting it all back on our communities. They're putting all their problems that they haven't managed well and just go, 'We'll just push it off on someone else.' It's very selfish. The 501s are a prime example. So most of them are young. They've been in Australia for 15, 20, 30 years, and then all of a sudden, Australia is like, 'Oh, this is an easy way out.' Instead of taking care of people, they'll just push it off on to someone who's supposed to be their partnership and ally, and instead, 'Let them take care of our problems.' And it's just not right. The other part of it ` they take all our economic benefits, all our education, all our` what we've been raising up people. We're sending quality people over there as adults, but they're just sending back problems, what they consider problems. And 501 is having an impact on communities here. We are a smaller country, and what's happening, for me on the grassroots level, is we're having to bring up our community, while protecting the community from what was created in another country. - And I just found that Suhayra Aden example to be quite exceptional, when the Prime Minister came out that day and revealed what had been going on, that Australia had revoked her citizenship. Absolutely snookering us, putting us in a corner. Is New Zealand now contributing, though, to kind of the detention of Suhayra Aden by not welcoming her back, or not getting her back here soon enough? Are we too busy working through those complexities, Anna? - Yeah, it did surprise me to hear that she is still in Turkey with her children, and that we have not been able to bring her back yet and deal with her here and take care of her children here. But I think that the whole situation really does underline just how different politically and ideologically the Australia and New Zealand governments are when it comes to dealing with matters like Suhayra Aden. But also matters like China and things. Australia has been much more willing to hitch its wagon to the United States during the Trump administration, and we have carved this more independent foreign policy, I guess. So, yes, this is a perfect encapsulation, I think, of the differences between us. - And wasn't it interesting as well that the minister said that, yeah, we do need to keep Turkey onside at the moment while we deal with these complexities. Do you think that's part of the reason we're not recognising the Armenian genocides, Sir Don? - Oh, it wouldn't be the major reason, but clearly, you've suddenly got a few balls in the air at once. And if president Biden says, 'Well, I'm going to do this,' I wouldn't like to think New Zealand journalists would say, 'Well, the United States are going to do it. Why don't we jump straight away?' We've gotta go through the process. Everyone actually legally deals genocide a little bit differently. But on the individual case of the individual, I mean, I would hope the New Zealand government is trying to get this resolved as rapidly as possible. It just becomes an embarrassment if you cannot. - Why didn't you recognise it as genocide when you were foreign minister? - It wasn't an issue at the time. - Right. Right. - It really wasn't. - Do you think that we are too worried perhaps, Aliya, about Turkey maybe banning New Zealand citizens from Gallipoli, things like that, the repercussions? Are we too worried? - I think that we're not honouring processes, and due process is an example. We have to insist every country honours due process and takes a look at everything in a fair light. And... I'm not gonna question the New Zealand government on diplomacy related to this issue because there are a lot of dynamics playing out, including what Suhayra would want as well in Turkey. Regarding Armenia, that's 100 years ago. We've got a lot to sort through to get up, and we've got current issues on the table today of people who are dying right now. So our diplomacy needs to be strong. We need to be vocal, and we need to expect everybody to maintain human rights. Thank you very much again for joining me this morning. Kia ora. Thank you. That's our panel ` Aliya Danzeisen, Anna Fifield, and Sir Don McKinnon. Kia ora koutou. - OTHERS: Kia ora. - Now, I'm sure you'll all agree that too much Newshub Nation is never enough Newshub Nation, and the latest episode of our podcast-only series Supplementary Question is available now. Hosted by our digital editor Finn Hogan, Supplementary Question has just been shortlisted for Best Podcast in this year's Voyager awards. The new episode asks what's next for drug reform. It features interviews with Andrew Little, Chloe Swarbrick, Simon Bridges, and more. You can get it wherever you get your podcasts. And that is all from us for now. Thanks for watching. Ka kite ano. See you again next weekend. Captions by Able. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 - This programme was made with the assistance of the NZ On Air Platinum Fund.