- E haere ake nei ` today on Newshub Nation ` revelations Oranga Tamariki is strip-searching children. Children's Minister Kelvin Davis. - Gangs, guns and cops ` we have Police Minister Poto Williams with us live. - And Simon Bridges on why he'd make a better justice minister than Chris Faafoi. Tena tatou katoa. I'm Tova O'Brien. - Ko Mihingarangi Forbes ahau. This is Newshub Nation. Ko nga pitopito korero e te whare paremata ` in political news this week ` - The government's stopped short of calling China's persecution of Uyghur Muslims genocide despite pressure from both ACT and the Greens. Parliament instead declared severe human rights abuses are occurring. - Trevor Mallard used parliamentary privilege to say that a staffer who he had falsely accused of rape was guilty of sexual assault. Jacinda Ardern says she expressed serious concerns about his conduct but retains confidence in him as Speaker. - And a three-year pay freeze in the public service ` nurses, teachers, police and all public servants earning more than $60,000 will only receive pay rises in exceptional circumstances. Those earning more than $100K have had their pay frozen completely. Grant Robertson says it's necessary to pay down COVID debt. But first on the programme today ` shocking revelations that Oranga Tamariki has been strip-searching children. Anna Bracewell-Worrall with this exclusive report. - ANNA BRACEWELL-WORRALL: Some of our most traumatised young people are being made to strip off all their clothes in Oranga Tamariki's youth justice residences. Hamish Falekaono has been through it. - Um, (CHUCKLES) I don't think it's a pleasant experience. It does feel, like, shameful and embarrassing. - He worries that, for some kids, the effect of a strip search could be long-lasting. - But overall, I'd say, yeah, phase it out. Get rid of it. Find another way. - Both Lady Tureiti Moxon, who has led calls for change at Oranga Tamariki, and the Children's Commission want the practice to be stopped immediately. - They're our kids, and here we are treating them like they don't matter. - And what you are doing is adding to their trauma. It's horrendous, and it has to stop. - Documents obtained by Newshub Nation under the Official Information Act reveal in the six months from July to January, Oranga Tamariki conducted 41 strip searches at its four facilities ` 12 in Auckland, none in Rotorua, one in Palmerston North. Three-quarters of them, 28, took place at one facility in Christchurch. - That number, 28, that's screaming 'failure of practice' to me. - Christchurch is an environment where young people that are particularly challenging to manage will go and do really well, so there is a discrepancy in the numbers, but there is reasons for that. - Items found ranged from... Of the 41 searches, fewer than half found something harmful or unauthorised, but Oranga Tamariki says it guarantees every one was necessary... - I can. I mean, like I say, staff don't want to do strip searches. It's the final tool of the tool kit. - ...but admits the practice is traumatising. - It can be. That's why it's the last resort. It's not pleasant for the staff; it's not pleasant for the young people. - Pressed by Newshub Nation, the agency revealed it tried and failed to get the practice banned by the previous minister, Tracey Martin. It's now with Kelvin Davis for consideration. - It requires legislative change, but operationally, like I say, we can do that before that comes into effect. - We need it stopped immediately. - Here's what's still concerning. Newshub Nation asked for three years of data, not for six months. Oranga Tamariki declined, saying that information is held in logbooks across the country. Without a centralised, transparent record, there's a risk any abuse of strip search powers will remain hidden away. Anna Bracewell-Worrall, Newshub Nation. - Anna Bracewell-Worrall with that disturbing report. We played it to Children's Minister Kelvin Davis just before he came on air and asked him why he hasn't banned strip searches yet. - And let me say that nobody likes strip searches ` not the people being searched, not the people doing the searches ` and it is something that is being phased out. We need to look at other ways of checking that people don't have concealed objects ` scanning, patting down, those sorts of things. So it is happening, but we've gotta make sure that we phase it out in a way that is safe, because there is criticism of Oranga Tamariki conducting strip searches on young people, but they'd also be the same people who would criticise Oranga Tamariki if someone was able to self-harm or harm others because they hadn't conducted searches. - Oranga Tamariki doesn't want to do it any more. They've asked the last Children's Minister. Why has it taken so long? - Look, uh` - And have you got a date? - No, I don't have a date. But it is going to be phased out. - Well, round about. For those kids, those rangatahi who are in the youth justice residences, what can you say to them? - Yeah, look, I'd like to see it phased out as quickly as possible. - End of the year? - Hopefully by the end of the year, but like I say, Oranga Tamariki would also be criticised if somebody was able to harm themselves or harm others because a search hadn't been conducted. - We have four youth justice residences still. The Children's Commissioner says they should be decommissioned too. What's your thoughts around that? - Yeah, I've visited them. In fact, I was at one in Palmerston North just two days ago. We don't want any of our children to be in youth residences. Unfortunately, some of their offending has been aggravated. They've also been involved in violent incidences, and that's deemed to be the best place for them, because of their offending. We'd prefer that all children are with their families or somewhere safe out in the community. - Yeah. Experts say that the best place for the majority ` not the top end of those young people ` but the majority of those young people should be in large homes in the community. But it's expensive. So would you make a commitment to looking at that? - Look, youth justice residences are expensive to run as well. But I think ` what's the cost of not helping our young people? I would definitely prefer them to be out in the community, in homes ` if their own home isn't the safest place for them, then somewhere else in the community. But at times, also, we have to remember that some of these young people have committed serious crimes and offences, and there needs to be consequences for some of those worst crimes. - You know, when you were in opposition, you were opposed to institutionalising children. Where's that Kelvin Davis gone? - Well, I'm still here. - Still institutionalising children. - I'm opposed to it, and that's why we're making the changes. - Have you got a date, a time frame? - We're making changes to Oranga Tamariki. We're making sure that children get the best support they can. And also in my other portfolio of Corrections, we're doing some amazing work there to reduce the prison population, because I just don't think that institutionalising people in general, let alone our young people, is the right thing to do. - So we hear that you don't agree with it and you want to make some changes, but can you give us a bit of a time frame? You've been in government` This is your fourth year. You haven't been the Minister of Children for that period of time, but in your term, would you like to see it phased out? - You mean youth residences entirely? There may always be a need for youth justice residences, but not necessarily four. But it depends how well we can support our young people so that they don't have to go there in the first place. But, look, Oranga Tamariki is undergoing a major overhaul. The ministerial advisory board will report back to me by the end of June. Oranga Tamariki was coming to me with options. We're going to see how we can meld them in. And... the Waitangi Tribunal report that came out last week, it aligns with the direction that I've given Oranga Tamariki. So I think people will see the changes starting to happen in the next 12 months. - Ka pai. So at the end of 2021, we might see the end of strip searches? - Oh, I hope so. By the end of 2021, strip searches, yes. - Let's talk about the Waitangi Tribunal report. What did you make of it? - Well, I welcome it, and I also just want to acknowledge the people who contributed to it. It must've been traumatic reliving some of those experiences that they had, but their contributions actually contributed to that report. Like I say, it aligns with my personal thinking and the direction that I've given to Oranga Tamariki, and as I've said, the ministerial advisory board will present their report by the end of June. Oranga Tamariki will be using that to influence their future direction, and we hope to see the changes start to be implemented, and within 12 months, I think we'll be quite a long way down the road of making the changes in Oranga Tamariki. - The great thing about Waitangi Tribunal reports, as you know from iwi reports, is that there's a lot of information that gets put together. A lot of effort goes into them. What we can see in that report is that, under this government, we watched the proportion of Maori tamariki in Oranga Tamariki blow out to 69%. How does that square with your promise of sorting inequities? - Yeah, this is the reason why I asked the Prime Minister for the children's portfolio, because I believe I can make a difference. There were some positive improvements happening in Oranga Tamariki. The numbers of children entering care has decreased significantly under the previous minister, and, you know, she needs to be congratulated for that work. The number of children leaving, though, is... - But the inequities, Minister ` Maori and Pakeha ` that's the real problem. So we've seen it go from 62% in 2018 up to 69% in 2021 for Maori tamariki. So how are you specifically targeting and dealing with and reducing those numbers? - Well, like I've said, I've directed Oranga Tamariki to move in new direction, and we will start to see the changes. But, you know, that's my commitment. That's why I wanted this role as Minister for Children, to turn those inequities around. And again, if I can just compare to Corrections, we're seeing a decrease, a 15% decrease in the numbers of Maori in prison over the last three and a half years. And I hope to see the same sort of improvements in Oranga Tamariki, but we've got to make sure that what we do, it works. It's done properly. And, you know, we'll be implementing those plans in the coming months. - You know, in that report as well, we really learned what happened over the last three years, and there was... there was not a reduction. In fact, there was an increase of pepi, babies under 3 months being taken by Oranga Tamariki, and then three reports were ordered in 2018. Do you have any idea how many babies were taken in 2018, newborns? - No, sorry, I don't. But regardless, whatever the number is, there's too many. And that's what we need to do is to turn that around. The best place for babies is with their parents, and if not with their parents, then with extended whanau who can love them. - So, 281, that's five babies a week that were taken from their mums' arms under 3 months. 69% of those babies were Maori. You weren't the Minister for Children, but you were the Minister for Crown Maori, and that was heralded as this Ministry that's going to be able to see over the top, that's going to assist Crown agencies to deal with Maori. So in that period of time, where were you as Minister of Crown Maori? - So, the Minister of Maori Crown Relations' role is to make sure that each of the agencies ` and I think there's about 36 Crown agencies ` that they improve their delivery and their engagement with Maori. I talk about crossing the bridge that is Te Tiriti o Waitangi into te ao Maori. And obviously, Oranga Tamariki in that time needed to do more work. But I can say that all 36 chief executives have signed up to the kaupapa we've called Whainga Amorangi, which is about them reporting in their annual reports and showing how they're making improvements` - But this Waitangi Tribunal report's allowed us to look back, and we now can see what happened, so in that period of time when you were in that role assisting Crown agencies to work better with Maori, Maori around the motu, iwi, were calling up to say, 'Stop taking these babies.' You can see there's been this massive increase. What were you saying? - So, I mean, obviously we engaged with our colleagues. But, you know, as the Minister of Maori Crown relations, I cannot direct people. We have to help them and guide them into Maori ways of working and engaging in te ao Maori. - So your ministry has no teeth ` is that what you're saying? - No. (LAUGHS) Not at all. In fact` - Well, in saying that you can't tell them to do things, you can only guide or suggest ` is that really partnership? - Every ministry has their own minister, and those ministers are responsible for their organisations, but a lot of work goes into supporting them, and like I say, all the CEs have just signed up to Whainga Amorangi, which will mean that they have to report in their annual reports in the ways in how they're helping to improve outcomes for Maori. - What we know is that when you are taken as a newborn baby from your whanau, it is a long road back to the whanau. The report suggests that those families are offered compensation. Will you give them compensation? - I think that's something that can be considered and looked at. I can't make guarantees now, because we are still in the process of determining future direction. - But you now have the power as the Minister for Children. Do you not think they deserve compensation for what the state put them through? - There's no doubt that people have been traumatised by the actions of Oranga Tamariki. The reality is we are making changes, and everything` There's nothing off the table. We're looking at how we can best support whanau. So, you know, we'll continue to have those conversations, but like I say, it's not until the end of June that the advisory board comes back to me, and we'll be looking at what needs to be done from there. - Will there be` Will you support that recommendation of a new child protection organisation that's Maori, for Maori? - Yeah, I mean, we're definitely looking at how that could work` - What do you think? - Well` - Will you be as brave as Peeni Henare and Andrew Little? - Oh, they're very brave ministers. - Yeah, so will you do the same? So if we can do this for health, can't we do this for our most vulnerable children? - And that's exactly what I've said, that the report from the Waitangi Tribunal aligns very closely with the direction I've given Oranga Tamariki. I've said that we need to devolve power and resources` - Personally? You're a supporter of it? - I personally support power and resources being devolved to Maori. The interesting part is the Maori` - Into the framework of a new Maori child protection authority? - Well, it says Maori transition authority, so the transition is what's important. - Yes. - Whatever we do, we have to do it right, and we have to make sure that we're not just replacing one bureaucracy with another. So, like I say, I'm very pleased that it aligns with the direction I've given Oranga Tamariki. - Are you disappointed with the lack of progress, under Grainne Moss' term, of the 7AA, which is the transition of resources to Maori? Very little was done then. - Look, and that's why I asked for the role, the responsibility. I really want to make a difference for all children in New Zealand, but particularly, the outcomes for Maori haven't been great, and that's what I want to fix. - We look forward to seeing that. Just want to reach with you ` 501s ` new figures show that over the last six years, some 1300 501s have committed nearly 11,000 crimes. What are we doing to resettle this group of people? - Yeah, and everybody knows my position on the deportations. - Yes, we do. - So, yeah, we need to assist` - What do you think? Well, this is Corrections, right? So Corrections is working with PARS to help resettle them. So what are we doing for them? - So, PARS do receive some funding to help them to resettle. It is an issue. - But, you know` - Because the thing is, Minister, if you were a refugee coming to New Zealand, you get resettled in an actual community for six weeks, then you get familiarised with what New Zealand is and tikanga and the rest of it. These men or women and possibly teenagers that are coming home, some have never set foot in Aotearoa before. They get $250 and one week in a boarding house. How is that responsible or fair? - Yeah, I think it's` We've got to be careful about comparing their situation to refugees. You know, I think that we're stepping on dangerous territory there. - Well, they're all people, and it's actually our responsibility to resettle them safely into our communities. - Well, yeah. There are different circumstances for refugees and 501s. Admittedly, many of them are coming over, and they haven't been here before. But, you know, there is the support that's given by PARS. There is` - Is it enough, though? - Well, you know, how long is a piece of string? In terms of how much support is enough? Some of them don't` You know, they do settle in, and they` - One week. One week, in a housing crisis. - Yeah, but some of their offending happens some time down the track. - Some of them have never offended. Some of them have never offended. - Yeah, and that's exactly the thing. - Before you` Sorry. Before you leave, I just want to say, as a former teacher, what do you say to the dedicated teaching profession who have worked over and beyond during the lockdown about, you know, taking pay freezes? - Yeah, well, these, um... these times are extraordinary. After the GFC, the National Government also put a freeze on pay,... - But our teachers? And our nurses? - ...but they did it for everybody. What we're doing is supporting the lowest-paid people and making sure that they still get to have pay rises. After the GFC, nobody got a pay rise, even the lowest-paid, and that wasn't right. - Tena koe. - Kia ora. - Mehemea he whakaaro tau, if you've got something to say about what you see on our show, let us know. - We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, NewshubNationNZ, or email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. - A muri i nga whakatairanga, still to come ` analysis of the week's news with our political panel. - Plus ` the police minister joins me live. - Welcome back. Gangs, guns, allegations of racism in the police force, and the thin blue line risks getting ever thinner with the news this week that public servants, including police, are having their pay frozen for three years. Police Minister Poto Williams joins me now. Minister, kia ora. Thank you for joining us this morning. - Kia ora, Tova. Thank you. - With everything that police are going through ` gang crime on the up, drug crime on the up, everyone's been put through the COVID ringer ` do they not deserve a wee pay bump? - Um, firstly, I have to say that they have just started their negotiations, so what I can say is very limited, at this stage. What we have to understand about the pay restraint issue is that we're wanting to support those at the bottom end of the public service, who haven't` who've worked really hard and really deserve to be supported, in terms of pay. But for the rest of us, actually, it is time for us to look at ensuring that we deal with the issue of COVID, and that's the cost to the country. So we are asking our better paid public servants to take up this pay restraint, but` - $60K, though, Minister. - That's exactly right. So` That's exactly right. So we're looking at those who earn the least to actually continue to be supported. - Those people on $60-61K, who are the majority of your new recruits from last term, they're not gonna get a pay rise for three years. - So, as I say, I'm loathe to talk about the police, specifically, because they are going into negotiations, but I do want to say` - Going into negotiation with a pay freeze hanging over their head. They've called it bad faith. - Well, as I say, I can't really speak to that. But what I do need to say, and what I can say, is that in terms of the step` the ability to step up through the ranks, in terms of pay, that will continue. - What about the` Did you fight back against this with your Cabinet colleagues? Did you go in to bat for your guys, especially those who are earning around the $60K mark and just above that? - What I did go in to bat for are those who earn the least in our public service. And that's what I think` The attention needs to come back to that discussion. - $60-80K, though, Minister. Could you at least get the pay freeze put only in place for a year, rather than the three years, for police in that band? - We've made a decision, as Cabinet, to look at those who earn the least in our public service and that's those people who earn less than $60K. - Because we've been talking to police who are really distressed by this news. They're struggling to make ends meet. One person told us, 'We've put our f-ing bodies and families 'at risk to keep the country safe during COVID. Nobody is happy here. We feel like undervalued 'coalface workers. Morale is low.' Is that the kind of culture that you want to promote within the force? - Absolutely not. And, you know, the police do, every single day, put themselves on the line for each and every one of us, and I want to thank them for the work that they do` - Don't they deserve a pay rise? - But, you know, in terms of where our focus and direction is, is on those who are earning the least. - It's hard to attract people, though, isn't it? The right people, when you can't incentivise them with pay. The last term of government, your government, you said that you were striving to recruit 1800 new police. Those are the ones who are in that bracket. They're on that, kind of, $60K` They're in that $60K zone. So do you risk losing those recruits from last term? - I don't believe so. In fact, our numbers, in terms of our recruitment, have been so strong that we've been, you know, really encouraged by how many we've managed to recruit. And actually, talking about that, Tova, it's really interesting to see who we are recruiting. When I go to graduations and see that we're recruiting far more women than we used to` The first graduation I ever went to, there was more than 50% women who are coming in to the service, which is awesome. But, you know, we're recruiting far more ethnicities, we're recruiting police who look much more like us as a nation, so I'm still encouraged that that will continue. - What about Maori? What's the percentage of those recruits who are Maori, and what's the target for you? - The target is to be as representative of New Zealand as possible, and I think, for Maori, our numbers are` I can't give you the exact figures, but what I can say is that` You go to a graduation, you see women, you see Maori, you see Pacific. You see people who are going into the police as a second career. - So what's the target for Maori, sorry? How many Maori recruits do you want? - I want` I want for the police to look like New Zealand. And that` - The proportion of Maori in New Zealand is 16%, so is that the target? - Well, I want it to reflect New Zealand. Whether that is for Maori, whether that is for Pacific, whether that's for Asian or other ethnicities. Whether that's for people from the rainbow community` - Don't your obligations, under the Treaty, are for Maori` for partnership. So is 16%` Do you really believe that that's partnership? - I actually believe that our numbers, in terms of Maori, are very good. Perhaps even higher than` You know, our aspirations are for people to join the service because they want to serve their community. When you look at some parts of the country, those numbers are higher than, say, in the urban areas, where we're probably recruiting for a much more diverse population. But we're, you know, we've got police in some of our rural communities, where we've got high populations of Maori, and the numbers for police, in terms of their Maori background, is high as well. - If you want it to be representative, wouldn't a good figure to go to be the number of Maori who are prosecuted by police` What is the figure for Maori prosecuted` - Look, we are way over-represented, in terms of Maori and Pacific, and that's one of the areas that I am really concentrating on. - It's 43%` - Absolutely. - 43% of police prosecutions are Maori, so shouldn't that be your target? For at least 43% of your recruits are Maori? - And, if you look at the numbers of victimisations, that is high too. That is over 30% as well. And you're absolutely right. We should be supporting all the initiatives that we can to make sure that we reduce the over-representation of Maori and Pacific, in arrests and in charges. - Last term, your government made that commitment to recruit 1800 new police. What's your commitment this term? - Well, we're still building up to that. So, we will have the 1800 growth completed by 2023. - Will you do another 1800 this term? - No. Our target was 1800 growth by 2023. So that's what we're working towards right now. - So` Your target was striving towards 1800 in the first term, above and beyond attrition. - And the growth` Our target was 1800 growth by 2023. So we had the initial target of 1800` - So, you've done a rewind to the 1800, originally, 'cause you didn't meet it last term? - No, no, our growth target was always to 1800 by 2023. - What's it at now? - It's about 14. - Okay. - Um... Racism. Let's look at some of the other disproportionate statistics. Cannabis, particularly. Since the police started using discretion to charge for or not charge for minor cannabis offences, has that shown up racial profiling within the police force? - I think the statistics are fairly even to what they have been prior. So I don't know that there has been a great shift in that. What there has been a shift in is people not being put through the court system. Now, that's got to be a great opportunity for us to continue that work. If we can keep people out of the court system, if we can keep them out of the justice system, then they have a much better chance of, you know, not getting recruited into gangs. - But` you say that it hasn't changed much, but actually, since 2019 when the law changed, the proportion of Maori charged for those minor cannabis offences has gone up. 46% to 48%. Why is that? - That is a` I guess that's a marginal figure, but I think that the better figure` - Probably not marginal for those who are being targeted, when perhaps others are not. - Yeah, I think that where we need to be focusing, and what I'm seeing increasingly, is us focussing on not getting them into court in the first place. Cannabis is an issue, meth is an issue. You know, gangs are an issue for Maori. If we can keep them out of the system in the first place, then we are, you know, we go a long way to reducing the harms that come later on. - What about the fact that police use force more against Maori than Pakeha? - That` That's a thing that's completely unfortunate and it is a statistic` - Unfortunate's probably` - Oh, you know, I think what the... What the police are looking at now, you know, the research programme they're doing alongside the University of Waikato. And that` so, with Kim Workman leading the panel on that, I think that is a really valuable piece of work. So the police are being very open about looking at who they stop and who they speak to, how they charge, what those what those charging decisions are like` - Maori, predominantly. Do you think that points to racism within the force? - Actually, what I think, that that piece of work will really point to where those issues are within the police, where the disproportionate attention is paid to Maori and Pacific` - You don't think it points to racism and systemic racism within the police? - I think what it points to is the police understand we have a problem here, where we've got disproportionate numbers of Maori and Pacific going into the system. Now, how do we stop that? Let's look at those points of entry, which are where you stop and speak to people, and who it is that you're doing` that you're stopping and speaking to. Let's look at how we make those charging decisions. I think that's a very grown-up and important piece of work to do, and I really support the police doing it, because at the end of the day, those people that are being stopped and charged are our whanau. And we want for that disproportionate arrest rates to be, you know, to stop, because it's not great for us as a people. - We know, Minister, that Maori are shot and killed by police more than anyone else. If you're arming police, some of them with guns, with Tasers, with extended` extendable batons, why not also arm them with body cameras. Shouldn't they go hand in hand? - That's a really interesting point in the discussion, and it's` things that hap` that is something that happens overseas, and it does` - Will police get body cams this term? - I` I` I'm not` That's not on the table. That's not on the` And it's not something that the police have raised with me as an issue. - Because last term, as Justice Minister, last year as Justice Minister, in fact, Andrew Little said that he would be open` He didn't see any difficulty or problem with equipping police with body cams. So what's the` what's the hold up? Why not do it? - Well, that's not something that has been discussed with me. - So you're ruling it out? No body cams this term. - I'm not ruling it out. I'm not ruling anything in, I'm not ruling anything out. It's not something that has been raised with me. Where it's happened overseas, it's provided a lot more transparency. - Shouldn't you raise it with them? Like here is` Yeah, here is something that, as you say, provides a lot more transparency. We've got a problem with disproportionate number of Maori going through the justice system at the sharp end, that's police. So why haven't you raised it with them? Why don't you guys get some body cams? - I really want to see` What I really want to see is the police` and this is what they're doing, they're having a look at their processes to see why is that they, you know, stop and speak to more Maori and they charge` what their charging decisions are. And while, on the face of it, that might not sound like a lot, what it is an exploration of the police of themselves and their processes and how they may target one group over another. And I think that's a really good place for us to start. Let's do that piece of work and see what comes from it. - 100%. Let's move on to firearms prohibition orders. What do you think of the National Party's bill, which means that violent gang members can't have a firearms licence, can't own guns, can't have them on their premises, can't even visit people who do have guns on the premises? What do you make of that? - In principle, it's great. It doesn't go far enough. - You want to go further than the National Party's bill? - Absolutely, we want to ensure that people who` not just gang members, but other people who may be, what we would call, you know, harmful people, who want to do us harm, we want to extend the discussion to that. So that's what we'll be looking at, in terms of what we put forward in terms of our firearms prohibition. - Okay, so this extended group, I think the National Party's one maybe targets about 600 people, but your extended group, if they're slapped with one of these orders, can police then undertake warrantless searches? - No. - No? - No. - So, that's` That's a bottom line for you. - Absolutely. - Okay, so what kind of searches are we looking at? - So` - Because that's one of the provisions within a firearms prohibitions order, isn't it? - The piece of work will be coming out shortly, and a lot of that detail will be presented. - The Police Association's basically said it's not worth the paper it's written on unless you give police the power of warrantless searches. - I don't know` I don't know that Chris Cahill would go that far. We've had a conversation about this and I know they're disappointed by this, but we want police to be able to use their existing powers of search and surveillance. - And do you think that they should apply to people` The order should apply to people who are just visiting somewhere, a property that has guns on it? - That's one of the things that will be considered as part of the bill. So, you know, associating with people, that's part of the discussion that will come out. This will come out a little bit later on, I think probably in a week or two. - Because the advice is that that could impact on Maori, given the importance of whanau, that you could end up kind of stripping people of their support networks if they can't visit those homes. - Well, there's a balancing act to be had here. Now, we don't want to disadvantage people who are out` who want to, you know, have firearms in terms of kai, terms of employment, recreation and the like. So there is a little bit of a balancing act that we need to make here. But we don't necessarily want people associating with others who have got an FPO against them when they are associating with other people with firearms. - Okay, so extending the number of people, but possibly lesser powers, within the government's ledge? - Let's see what comes out. This will be up for discussion too, of course, in select committee, to flesh it out a little bit more. But we want to include a wider group within that regime. - Okay. Kia ora, Minister, thank you very much for your time. - Thanks for having me, Tova. - Police Minister Poto Williams. Up next, analysis from our panel, Merepeka Raukawa-Tait and Jarrod Gilbert. Plus, Simon Bridges gets five minutes to convince you he'd make the best justice minister. Tahuti mai ano. Kei te tepu i tenei ata, joining us on the panel, ko tou tatou mareikura, Merepeka Raukawa Tait, chair of the Whanau Ora Commissioning Agency, and gang specialist from Canterbury University, Dr. Jarrod Gilbert. Tena korua. - Kia ora. - Morena korua. - Morena. Um, Jarrod, could we kick off with you? What did you make of Kelvin Davis' commitment there to ban strip-searching of those children? - Well, it seems to make a bit of sense, doesn't it? And I think firstly, we've got to accept that it is really important to keep those facilities safe and secure, right? So we do need to be mindful that contraband or weapons aren't going into the places. And if those strip searches, just over the last six months, that you discovered had come up with really serious contraband that had been found, then this might be quite a difficult conversation. But in reality, they didn't. - And sometimes it was nothing! - So then it becomes a bit of a no-brainer. I mean, because this is a very uncomfortable thing to do, and it's not within the kaupapa of what these facilities are attempting to achieve, so no-brainer. - Also concerning that we only get 6 months of data when we asked for 3 years of it. So why is that? They say it's in logbooks. Why is it not centralised? - Well, I mean, as a researcher, we always want the data, because that's how` That allows us to make informed opinions, of course. That those data aren't being kept centrally, just seems crazy. - The whole youth justice, institutionalisation of rangatahi, of our children, the Children's Commissioner wants them gone, decommissioned. What's your thoughts? - I think they should be. I think we're really just setting the young children up to say, 'Well, hey, this is it,' and you're just going to be moving along the chain, 'and you'll be in with the adults in a very short time.' But as for strip-searching, Kelvin could say right away, 'We are going to remove that right now from your toolkit.' That's it, and it can be done. It doesn't have to` You don't have to change legislation. - It's an issue of practice. - That's right. And there must be another way as well. Let's move to the Waitangi Tribunal report on Oranga Tamariki. What is your response to that? - Well, I'm pleased the report was done and it contains some excellent recommendations, and I'd like to think that, well, certainly the claimant groups are meeting, we have already this week, and we are taking those recommendations further, because the Minister of Oranga Tamariki can't do it on his own. And what we are saying is that actually, do you mess around with a huge government organisation, or do you start to look at the devolving of resources and services now to whanau, hapu, and iwi, who are more than up for doing the job. So that's our focus, really. And do you think that that's where the minister will go? Do you think we will see a devolved...? Yes. He's already given an indication that that will be coming about. I mean, there's been a number of reports written, and all of them do say that, you know, crown step back, Maori step up. So it's definitely our time. And so, you know, all the reports now, bar one, that's coming at the end of next month. But really, the time for reports are over, and it's actually now, the devolving of those services and as soon as possible, because the uplifting of our children is still taking place. So we need to halt that, eliminate that and also invest in the families. Invest in the family so if there's issues in the home, that we can get in early and we can support the parents to do the best that they can, and that's what we want to do. - Jarrod, having had some, you know, been around the Royal Commission of Enquiry into state abuse, and in your work with gangs and people who have been institutionalised, you know, What are your thoughts about this Waitangi Tribunal report and the idea of having a transition authority? - Well, we have to learn the lessons of the past, don't we? We haven't been at our best when it comes to state care, to say the least. But I think the critical issue here is what actually comes next? What does it actually look like? What is the detail now? I absolutely appreciate that the Crown are saying, 'well, we need to negotiate that with Maori, 'because that's the process that that is the process that needs to be undertaken.' But I do fear that if we just, say, devolve to Maori without knowing what that might look like, we may set up another agency simply to fail. This is not easy tasks, they are incredibly difficult. I think we have to have some of those really tough conversations about how are we actually going to do this. And that conversation is often not as detailed as we` - And I think you hold a very widely, you know, wide concern, somebody who's in this, you know, what does it look like? It's not going to be Maori Authority` - Well the fact is` Yes, there will be good people that will look to see what will that look like? The transitioning of services. Now, there is no substitute for somebody who has been there and had the lived experience. Those are claimants out there who have said that we will get alongside you and work to make sure that whatever is put in place is the best for the children, because they have the stories, all of the reports, the voices of the people, of young people who are now adults who were harmed while supposedly being in safe care, under state care. So these people will come on board and they will give good guidance. And then you will see we've got the capacity already. We've got providers out there who are doing much of the work already, and so to be well-resourced so that they can get additional support, but it all comes back to the family and the home environment. And if we can invest in them, not look at it as a cost, but invest there as soon as possible. And I think that will be the thing. I mean, we couldn't do worse than what's happening now. - And what about compensation? Should whanau be awarded compensation for the trauma caused by the uplifts? - 281 in 2018, 5 babies a week were taken. Everyone was screaming out, you know, that it's got to stop. What's your thought? - Look, again, we're talking about a spend afterwards, look I don't know if there should be compensation. I really don't. But what Merepeka's saying, and I think this is dead-right, and every conversation we will have in this area tends to lead back to prevention. Right? We spend all of our money after the fact on these types of matters, after concerns occur. If we can strengthen the family, strengthen the whanau to ensure that the problems don't begin in the first place, that's where we go. But we're not good at it. The last figures I saw, $1.4B spent on sexual and family violence, just 1.5% on primary prevention. We would never design a system like that, but that's the system we've got, and it's not working. And so we definitely need change, and we don't ask for detail. That's not a criticism of the approach to devolve to Maori, It's just simply wanting to know a little bit more it, the thrust is important. - Are you a fan of Whanau Ora, though? The wraparound service? - Well, that question, and it's necessary, and I think we could be using that, and in fact, Whanau Ora, in perhaps more sophisticated ways. - That is the idea, is it? - Well, yes, because our children don't live in isolation. And if there's an issue in the home, then that's going to impact on everybody in the home, the children, the adults, even the people who are visiting. So we must see it as an investment, and we must make sure that we actually trust families, give them the support to be the best that they can. But don't say, 'Well, actually, you're a hopeless cause, you know, ' we've never seen anything good come out of you, 'so actually, we're going to continue to uplift the children.' And that's not the case anymore, any longer. - Let's talk about some of the stuff the police minister raised there, firearms prohibition orders, it looks like they're in the wind. They've kind of been in the workings for a wee while now. Going further than the National Party, so more people caught up in it, but not having those unwarranted police searches. Jarrod, is that a good call? - Well, actually, I did hear Poto talk about that. But my understanding is the police actually do have the ability. They can get a search warrant to go into a house to search for firearms. - They can. But if they have reasonable cause to suspect firearms or illegal firearms are in a property, then they can go in warrantless now. I'm almost certain on that. - Yeah, they can. But this would be for the orders. So they wouldn't even need that suspicion. So there are a few options, there was` No, that's right. But I think that's massive fishhooks, because if now they go in with reasonable cause to believe firearms are there, then why would they go in without reasonable cause? Does that mean, can they go in with an unreasonable cause? Do you know what I mean? Like, how are we policing these communities now? People will think about gang members and the like and say, 'Well, it's just gang members, who gives a damn?' But police will be going into homes where children are there, where wives are there. If people are visiting other homes, that might be other wider whanau. Now, these are communities, that within criminal justice, are Maori communities largely, that we are concerned about within criminal justice. Trust and confidence in the police we need to ensure exists within those communities. So if we're acting in unreasonable ways, that is concerning. As soon as we say gang, we think it doesn't matter. But we forget often that the communities that surround those gang members and we have to be mindful of it. - Your thoughts on that? Who's targeted? - Well, I mean, what is the government trying to achieve here? That should be the first question. What are you trying to achieve here? If you're trying to reduce firearms in gang homes, then that's where you should be targeting. And do we trust the New Zealand police to act with wisdom in this? We've heard things already just recently that that's not the case, so profiling and all of that. There's the real potential for this government to piss New Zealander's off. You know, we are a country where we've always, we've been farmers, we're farmers. We've got very, very responsible firearms owners. And they are actually, along with the community, there's this sense about, here comes the government, I know what's best for you, so we're going to have a shake-up. It's all this reactive stuff. Not good. The government could piss New Zealander's off, it's not a novel idea. (LAUGHTER) - Kia ora korua. Thank you very much for your time this morning, Merepeka Raukawa-Tait, and Jarrod Gilbert. - Thank you. - Thank you, kia ora. - Up next, Simon Bridges has five minutes to sell you on his best ideas. - Plus, Finn Hogan's edit of a raucous week in the house. - Welcome back to The Pitch, where we give MPs just five minutes to sell you on their ideas. From minister to opposition leader to new opposition MP, Simon Bridges has had a tumultuous political career. Now he wants Chris Faafoi's job as Justice Minister. So Finn Hogan started by asking what his first action would be. - I think it's basically keeping New Zealanders safe, trying to reduce crime and the victimisation of New Zealanders, because I think what we know is, under the current government, all of those areas have gotten worse. The government's pursued a policy of trying to keep people out of prison. Look, in doing so, I think we've seen victimisation go up, and we've seen the number of criminals go up. - You've said that you'd significantly expand mental health facilities in policing. Can you give me one tangible example of what that would look like? - Yeah. I mean, in prison cells, we have a situation right now where the government effectively has cut those services. Well, that's not right. Actually, we'd wanna see more resourcing into that. And we've got a government that actually put big numbers on these things but failed to deliver. Well, we'd like to actually deliver on that, because, look, what we know is if you have those interventions, those services, in the end, you have less crime. - Would you reverse the current directive for police to exercise discretion on cannabis? - Well, in fact, what you've got there, I would argue, is a law. It's more than a discretion; I would say it's actually something of a direction. It was put into law. I can't today tell you that we would, because quite simply, we haven't gone through a caucus process on that. - But personally, you don't support it? - I think you know my instinct. We've talked about these things before, and that is I think we've got at the moment a soft-on-drugs approach, an approach that's effectively decriminalisation. In fact, I actually think, having seen the devastation from drugs across the board, that's not the right thing. - So you don't support a move towards decriminalisation at all? But Shane Reti has been on record saying that's something that should be looked at. - People have different views. But I think the reality is we're in a country right now where drug use continues to grow. Those who say, look, if you do all this stuff that it somehow gets better, I just don't buy that. There are a huge raft of problems, whether it's more drunk driving on our streets, whether it's health and safety issues at work, whether it's the mental health issues that we've talked about. - Is National out of step with New Zealanders on this issue, though? 69% of New Zealanders favour some form ` either decriminalisation or legalisation. - We had a referendum at the last election, and people say it's close, but in the end, the result was clear. People didn't favour` New Zealanders didn't favour` - That was one specific form of legislation, though. Decriminalisation in general has much higher favourability. - But the reality of that is it was a referendum where... all the polls tended to say and all the pundits tended to say, 'Oh, well, it's going to pass.' In the end, it didn't. Now, we don't know what a result would be on decriminalisation. And don't get me wrong ` I'm not suggesting to you that the arguments in decriminalisation are exactly the same as for legalisation. I accept, you know, it's` it's a slightly different set of arguments. - Chloe Swarbrick says a lot of National MPs say very different things in private than in public on drug reform. Is there a rift in the party on this issue? - No. - No, that's not true? - No. - Absolute unity on this issue? - Chloe was looking for a headline. Good for her. - OK, but these laws do disproportionately affect Maori. Could you give me a specific example of what you would do to help lower the disproportionate levels of Maori we have in our prison system? - Well, I think in the end, we want a justice system that works for everyone, that's in the interest of all New Zealanders. So I don't shy away from being uncompromising and saying, look, that is one where there's deterrents. Now, what I also know is that may well mean, in the right context, we are doing slightly different things in certain areas, but it certainly doesn't mean separate systems. - Well, on this issue, your leader has come under fire for comments she made about a separate Maori health authority, calling it segregation from last century. Was that appropriate language? - She's doing what good opposition leaders do, which is holding the government to account in relation to their policies where, actually, it's not all clear. I just take my own situation. I'm Maori. I, presumably, under this Maori health authority, will have a choice of which door to go into. And I can tell you which door I'll choose ` the one that gives me the best health system. - 'Segregation from last century' ` is that the language of unity that a leader should be using? - Well, I think factually, what Andrew Little has announced is a separate system. It is... one door based on ethnicity for one person and one for another. And as I say, and as Judith has said, I don't think that would 1) work or 2) be right in principle. - After the crushing election defeat, after the internal review, what personal lesson did you take from that review? - Well, look, I think in the end, I could give you a plethora, probably. - Give me one. - I'm not going to. No, I'm not going to. - What was National's biggest mistake? - We had a COVID election. That had a real effect on National. But we still have a role to play in being a strong, effective opposition. - Does Judith Collins still have your complete support as leader? - Yes. - No discussion between you and Luxon on a potential Bridges-Luxon ticket? - No. - So you will never be the leader of the National Party again? - Correct. - You will never be prime minister. - Correct. - Stay with us. We'll be back after the break. We're back with our panel, Merepeka Raukawa-Tait and Dr Jarrod Gilbert. Kia ora korua, thank you again. - Kia ora. - Let's get into the pay freeze. Frozen for three years. Anyone over $60K, effectively. Is that fair? - Well, look, I think when` When the coronavirus hit, there was a massive amount of spending which wasn't just desirable, it was necessary. - Mm. - But everybody knew, at a certain point, we were going to have to` we were going to have` there was going to be some pain to go with that gain, and I guess this is what we're seeing now, right? But the slight issue` So, we should have expected that. We know that's going to happen. People are going to have to pay a price. We're all going to have to pay a price. But to turn around to people who we were lauding and thanking on those front lines for getting us through this` - Clapping at the end of the driveway. - seems a very difficult way to thank them now, doesn't it? And the other issue with it is the three years. Now, we're all aware of house price increases and problems in the rental market` - Living costs in general. - but the spectre of inflation over that three year period could be something that is really, really significant, which would mean that this is` this bites now, of course, psychologically, but really, fiscally, it could have a very significant impact in three years. That's a very long time in the uncertain economic environment. - Becomes an effective pay cut. - It could become a very significant pay cut. - I want to talk to you, if I can, about Police Minister Poto Williams interview, there, where she responded to Tova, asking her about, what's the target for Maori in this new recruitment drive? And there didn't seem to be a target. - No, there didn't seem to be a target, and whether or not there should be a target, I'm not sure. But if you want to increase Maori in the police force, then you do have to actually set a target and you've got to go out and make sure that you do recruit in the communities where they're most needed, where they know` (CLEARS THROAT) excuse me, where they know the dynamics of the families that are living there and they can do the best good. So targets would be good, but actually specifically target those communities, people from those communities who can step up and do the job. - And while it's good to have boots on the ground, what we do know, and as Tova mentioned, 43% of Maori involved in being prosecuted. So, you know, would it be good to have target` Should we be peppering diversity and ethnicity through our police force? - Tania Kura now sits at that top table of police. There could not be a more impressive police person in the country, actually, police officer in the country. She is a really amazing Maori woman who had a phenomenal impact on the east coast of the North Island. So her sitting at that top table does give me a whole lot of confidence that things are heading in the right direction at that level. - Yeah, I guess, though, when you're talking prosecutions, we know that Maori over-apprehended, over-prosecuted, so let's just drill into, you know, that group of people. How many Maori, how many Pasifika, how many ethnicity, are in there, involved in making those decisions? - Yeah. Look, again, whether or not that's the way we would want to decide it, I think of what Maori numbers should be within the police. The trick is that we need measures to see those numbers coming down, right? Regardless of` - Fundamentally, we need to change the culture of the police. I mean, if Maori always prosecuted, more prosecuted, more arrests, more prosecutions, that's a culture, that's` that's stereotyping, that's making a judgement call and then just taking the easy option, say we'll prosecute. But Maori respond better when Maori` when they're in front of other Maori, who will know the BS, you know, I mean, a Maori police officer knows BS when he hears it. He knows that. And so if you're going to put targets, if you want to reduce Maori offending, then get more Maori into those areas as well. But again, it comes back to the home environment as well. Put some investment there. - Were either of you surprised by those numbers of crimes committed by the 501s? Thirteen hundred in the last six years, 11000 crimes. - No. Are you dealing with any of these people that are returning home? - Yeah, well, I wrote a book on one of our 501s and what we find there` and I'll get back to the New Zealand situation in a second. But how Australia is behaving in those circumstances is utterly abominable, not only from a legal perspective, I would argue, but just how they're treating us as mates, not just to those to those individuals, but to New Zealanders. - But, here at home, Merepeka, is it the government's responsibility to resettle them and make them safe in our community? - Where is that support? - Definitely. Otherwise, we run the very real danger of seeing an increase in violence from these people who are coming home. When they come into New Zealand, to give them a couple of hundred bucks, put them up in lodgings for a short time and say, well, there you are, sink or swim. And we know that they're going to go straight to where they're going to get some support, which is probably in the gangs, and they'll be back into the behaviour that we don't want to see. It's a really dangerous situation for New Zealand. So if we're going to say yes` and I mean, of course, you're right, what's happening over in Australia, our 501s being deported to New Zealand, that's another issue. But once they get here, they do need to be supported. Otherwise, we` it does not bode well for New Zealand. And it's going to be so much more costly in the long term because they're going to be housing them again in prison and goodness knows how much that's going to cost. - Tena korua. Thank you so much for your time. - Kia ora. - To the House now. It was a raucous week in the chamber and not in a good way, with Trevor Mallard making serious accusations and National pressing for his resignation. - Here's Finn Hogan with the week that was in Wellington. - Even by the standards of this chamber, it was a tumultuous time. - And I'll say the Speaker is a bully. And if he sues, I'll say it outside parliament and if he sues me, I will turn up to court and I will defend it. And guess what? I will plead truth. - Trevor Mallard stepping down from his Speaker's chair and wading into fiery debate over alleged sexual assault. - Mr Bishop, this is not a school debating society. I will answer the questions. I've got` I've got all night to answer the questions and I will. - National continues to call for his resignation. So is the time of Speaker Mallard coming to a close? - Speaker` - Government` - Order. - Unlikely. Because while his boss says ` - He did not meet my expectations. - She still has confidence in him as Speaker. And that's good news for him because it seems like being Speaker is a hard habit to break. - Order. Just` Sorry, I'm in the wrong seat. - Let me` - Yes, sorry, sorry. - Thank you. - Hopefully, next week we'll be back to something like normal with more scenes like this ` - Order, order. - and perhaps finally put to rest this ` - tawdry, sordid period in this parliament. - That's all from us for now. Hope you enjoyed the program. Thank you so much for joining me, Mihi. - Noku te whiwhi, it was my pleasure. - And I will see you lot again next weekend. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 - This programme was made with the assistance of the New Zealand On Air Platinum Fund.