- Today on Newshub Nation ` from gay conversion therapy ` will he support it? To the dawn raids ` will the government apologise? And what to do about woeful Pacific poverty statistics? Minister Aupito William Sio joins us live. David Shearer, fresh from the United Nations, talks Israel, Palestine and whether New Zealand's response is adequate. Also ` what happens to a country when half its jobs disappear? Anna Bracewell-Worrall on the long road back for Fiji. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 Kia ora, good morning. I'm Tova O'Brien. Welcome to Newshub Nation. In political news this week ` the worst effects of COVID-19 could have been avoided, according to a scathing report by the International Panel for Pandemic Preparedness and Response. The independent panel was set up by the World Health Organisation. It said the responses of global governments and the WHO were a toxic cocktail. The government backed down on its public service pay freeze after crisis meetings with the unions, and Education Minister Chris Hipkins has announced a $170 million pay parity plan for early childhood education teachers. Some could receive a 17% pay rise. Violence continues to escalate in Gaza, with Israeli ground forces deployed on Friday. More than 100 people have been killed, including 31 Palestinian children. The Minister for Pacific Peoples will be joining us shortly. We'll be asking him about the lasting effects of the dawn raids on his community. Will 'Ilolahia was there for the raids and was the Polynesian Panthers' chairman for its first five years. Tena koe, Will. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. - Kia ora. - Casting your mind back to the dawn raids, what was it like at the time, and what kind of impact did it have on those families that were targeted? - It's probably one of the darkest history in regard to our urban living in Aotearoa. It was really hard to be a Polynesian in the sense that some of our members were picked up on the streets and being asked for passports, like they do in South Africa. So it was that hard that we actually wanted to do something about it. - And what kind of intergenerational damage have those raids caused on the Pasifika community? - We've come across in our Educate to Liberate talks at schools and that kind of stuff the shock that some of the kids and some of the kids that were` know that their parents were overstayers and that kind of stuff. It's still there. It's a... It's something that needs to be sorted, you know, because it's like a black mark on them that they are coming from the overstayers generation. And so basically, that's why we're still, 50 years later, still trying to push this thing about getting this thing sorted. - Still fighting, and fighting for an apology from the government as well. The minister has said that he is considering it. What difference would an apology make to the community? What difference would` What would it mean to you? You're about to have your 70th birthday ` as you say, been fighting for 50 years. What difference would it make? - What's happening there is a story of our nation. We're all migrants. And so just because in the '70s, it hit us particularly, even though the majority were Pakeha overstayers, that needs to be sorted out. And if the minister will be able to` And I'm not just talking about Aupito. I'm talking about also Kris Faafoi. You know, we've got a Polynesian Minister of Immigration now ` if they can also grant a pathway to residency. Because it's easy for them to say sorry. You know what I mean? But the people who have gone through it and that kind of stuff, and especially those that are staying here, because we are promoting our country as 100% pure and nice. And, you know, we can't blame people coming over here and overstaying, cos we've got a beautiful country. If we can get the pathways to residency sorted, and the apology, then I think we can show that we're adult enough to move on. Cos I've come across even kids today in some of our lectures that say, 'Oh, yeah, my grandpa, you know, it's taken me`' Cos it's in the curriculum. And so they go and ask their grandparents, 'What was it like?' And they can see the damage that had happened to their grandparents and parents. - So it would just be a starting point, wouldn't it? Because that's a real problem there, that pathway to residency. We've seen Labour governments in the past offer amnesty to overstayers. Is your sense that this government will do the same? - We're hoping so, you know? And especially now that we've got Polynesians in key roles, you know? But the system is still the system, and so if we can get the system to change its ways... The other thing, too, is that there was a cry out for, you know, needing for people to go into horticulture. We had 10,000 overstayers here, you know, who lived in New Zealand, know what it's like to live in New Zealand. They're living on wages at the moment that's below, below the minimum wage, but they use their job, cos that's the only job they could get. If they would have called out to the overstayers that were here, we would have sorted that problem and don't have fruit rotting on the ground. - And just finally, Will, do you think that that racism from the '70s, from '74, from '76, do you think it still exists in New Zealand today? - Institutional racism is there, you know, in this country here. And now we're a mixed country ` 240 ethnics. The institution itself has got to change ` it's based on Pakeha European values ` and change it to a multicultural institution. Once you change that, then it should be gone. But institutional racism is still there. We get the occasional comment on the road. But that's, I think, because they're frustrated because we're becoming the majority. - Will 'Ilolahia, thank you so much for your insights and your time this morning. Kia ora. - Kia ora. - The Polynesian Panthers, which Will was a founding member of, made a documentary in 2005 into that shameful time in New Zealand race relations. Here is just a tiny snippet which gives a sense not just of the raids but the racism. - I didn't even have an experience of what a dawn raid is until I heard the big bang on my door... around about half past 1 in the morning. I heard it's... it's noisier and louder. So I got up and went to the door, and I opened the door. And I saw two policemen standing there with a dog. - I sort of got a fright, because you don't get any strangers coming round this late at night. And when I went to the door, was these two cops that come in. - We're having trouble accepting the Polynesians fast enough, really. You know, we can't educate them. They're not used to our way of life. They don't know the language. - The dawn raids had intergenerational impacts on Pacific communities, and child poverty statistics out this week paint a grim picture of life in New Zealand for far too many Pacific kids. 46%, nearly half, are living in a household where food runs out sometimes or often. Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio joins me now. Minister, talofa. Thank you for being here. - Talofa. Noia mauri, Tova. - Those child poverty statistics ` what went through your mind when you saw specifically the statistics relating to Pacific kids? - I think, in terms of the overall report, that it looks positive in terms of the trend, but those statistics are not new to the Pacific community. We know them well. We've lived it. And so what I'm pleased about is that we're now able to see, in all nakedness and for the rest of the population of New Zealand, to recognise that there has been quite a lot of inequities that a vital cohort, population cohort of New Zealand has been experiencing for some time. And that's why the health reform is so critical to addressing that. - Why is there such a gaping discrepancy? - Oh, look, it'll be a number of factors in that. But essentially and fundamentally, it's about how the system doesn't recognise and value the contribution of minority groups. - What's the median wealth, for example, for a Pasifika individual versus a Pakeha individual? - So, money is important, but it's not just about that. When we're talking about prosperity, we're talking, across the board, a holistic approach of physical well-being, mental well-being, spiritual well-being and cultural well-being and being able to contribute back to the community. It's looking at it from a different lens, because we believe that we're all part of the human race, and all of us, whatever our actions are, has a connection to how it affects other people, and so that's the approach that we're trying to promote throughout all of government. And it's quite challenging, because our system is designed not that way, but siloed focus. But we're making some progress. - Yeah, I mean, just looking at that one metric, because it gives us a sense ` it's $15,000 for a Pacific individual versus $138,000 for Pakeha. Would you have expected that, by now, you would have been able to do more to close that gap since coming into government four years ago? - And our political system doesn't help that either, because different governments will provide value... - You're in charge of the political system now. - I know. Absolutely. And that's why the progress that we've made appears to be minimal. But you have to celebrate the fact that we've got 15,000 more people in jobs in the last three months. We've got over 100,000 people who have taken up the free trades. Those are very fundamental and important into making some changes. But these challenges did not appear on my doorstep overnight, and it will take long-term investment, dedicated collaboration and cooperation across all of government. - Do you remember back in 2014 when you were in opposition? We worked on a story together about overcrowding in state houses. You were hammering the Nats back then for the woeful number of people on the state housing waitlist. It was 5500. Does that still seem high to you now? - It is significantly higher, but they were responsible for some of the stuff that we're having to` - 22,500 now under your government ` four times what it was when you were having a crack. - And now you have a government who is dedicated to making sure that people aren't living on the streets or in cars. And so we're putting people into houses. We're consenting more houses to be built. But that is going to take quite a bit of time. And so we've made a great start, but obviously, from my perspective, from the community perspective, there's so much more that needs to be done. - At the time, though, Minister, you told me that those people on that waitlist were being treated as second-class citizens, that they were human beings. - Absolutely. - Isn't Labour still the same but to thousands, if not tens of thousands more people, treating them like second-class citizens? - And that was the way National treated people and continues to treat people in this regard. - But you're the government now. - And so we've made the changes in the culture. It's taken a bit of time to try and embed that culture of kindness and compassion and to get the whole of government to believe in that and to implement that. We've made some progress on that. But look, obviously, it's not fast enough according to the needs of people. - In that same story, we spoke to an incredible family. There were five of them living in a two-bedroom state house. They were waiting to be transferred into a bigger house at the time. That transfer list was about 350 people waiting to be transferred to a bigger home. Now, under Labour, the list of people in state houses waiting to transfer has increased by 185%. So those are people whose state houses aren't adequate, is that right? - But you've also had a system that didn't recognise that those people were living on the streets and that wasn't good enough. What we have provided is to recognise that people shouldn't be on the streets, and we've create an environment where people feel comfortable in stepping forward and identifying that they were in a homeless situation. - How much of a part do you think that the dawn raids played in creating that inequity and entrenching that inequity? - I think... You know, I'm still looking through that advice. Obviously` - You've been saying that for two months now. With respect, you've been holding on to that advice. Surely, you've got a bit of a sense now. - This is important, because you're asking a government, a present government, to apologise for something that occurred 50 years ago. And so I need to be able to look at all angles of that to be able to determine what recommendation I would make to the government. - This is in regards to an apology. I mean, you were, what, 14, 16 years old at the time? What's your recollection of that time in New Zealand history? - Traumatic, frightening. I've had to just ask my younger sisters what their memory is of that, and one of my sisters said she doesn't like talking about it, because it was frightening. - So a total concession, then ` there was harm done to the Pacific community. So isn't an apology warranted? - Oh, look, I've got to consider all those angles. Certainly, the advice and what you've heard from others say, there was trauma caused. There was fear caused. But as a government, we have to consider all angles on that. - Like I say, you've been saying that you've been receiving that advice for a couple of months now. Surely, you've gone through it and you've made a determination. - I have gone through it, and I continue to go through it, because I think there's a number of factors here that have to be considered as we look to the future. - Isn't it just an obvious part of the healing process, as Will was saying? - But I also bring into this my cultural lens in terms of the impact not only on the past, present, but looking to the future. - In June is the 50th anniversary of the Polynesian Panthers. Could that be a good date to perhaps announce this apology? - Look, I'm still going through that, and government hasn't made any decisions on it. - Possibly the 16th of June, we'll hear an apology? - Government hasn't made any decisions on it. - Have you also requested advice about potentially for compensation for the trauma caused, the intergenerational trauma caused by those raids? - No. - You don't think that compensation's warranted? - Compensation is a matter that has to be considered in the whole package, and at the moment, I haven't sought advice on that. - OK. What about Pacific leaders talking about how difficult it is to get that pathway for residency? The prime minister said this week that we want to shift the balance away from low-skilled, low-paid workers. I mean, it's already hard enough. That sounds like it's about to get harder. Is that right? - You're going to have to talk to the Minister of Immigration for his views on that. - Have you been talking to the Minister of Immigration? - I have been talking to him, and he will be laying out, as part of the work that he's undertaking, his vision for the immigration sector. - And you've been talking to him in your role,... - About a whole range of things. - ...including potentially offering amnesty for overstayers? - Including individual cases that come to my office on a regular basis and individual cases that come to me as I make my way around the country. - Because back in 2000, when Labour was, you know, going hard on immigrants, toughening up its immigration policy, it did offer amnesty to well-settled overstayers. It feels like Labour's going back down that path again now with the immigration reset. So will that be the dispensation ` amnesty for overstayers? - Again, that's a matter for the Minister of Immigration. - But you recognise it's a problem, right? - I recognise that there's an issue in the immigration system, and those are discussions that we continue to have. - On the Cook Islands travel bubble, do you think that people should be vaccinated before they travel? It opens up on Monday, right? So do you think that people should be vaccinated before they travel? - Well, we're working hard with the Cook Island government, and we'll roll out the vaccine immediately after the bubble is opening, and they're working at pace. We expect that they'll be able to vaccinate their population within five or six weeks. - But Kiwis, do you think that they should only travel once they've been vaccinated? Just in case. - It's not required by the Cook Island government. By my personal view, and the one that I've shared with our Pacific communities, is I think it's wise to get vaccinated before you travel. - And that's what you'd said about the trans-Tasman bubble as well, right? - Absolutely. - Do you think it's irresponsible, then, to travel without getting that vaccination first? - Oh, look, ultimately, the bubbles are opening up, and you can travel without getting vaccinated. But my personal view is ` and I've shared this quite strongly with our communities ` get vaccinated before you start planning on travel. - Because the flipside would be that it's irresponsible? - Absolutely, absolutely. We only need to look to what happened in 2019 with the measles outbreak in Samoa, where it was alleged that somebody from New Zealand, you know, took measles to the islands, and I'm cognisant of that. - And influenza as well, right? - Absolutely. - So do you think the government's perhaps being irresponsible, then, by not mandating that, enforcing vaccinations before people travel to the Cooks? - No, we're working within the confines of our agreement with the government of the Cook Islands. And we've been working quite well with their Ministry of Health to make sure that we provide a safe and effective vaccine of their choice and are able to roll it out as quickly as we can. - In 2012, Minister, you voted against the same sex marriage bill, citing a lack of support from the Pacific Island community that you represent. Some MPs who voted against it at the time have gone on to change their minds and say that they have regrets. Do you have any regrets about the stance you took at the time? - For same-sex marriage? - Mm. - No, I don't. But I did make the point at that time that the priority for Pacific communities were housing, health, education and incomes, which is still a priority today. - You even said at the time ` and it got you offside with a few of your Labour colleagues ` that same-sex marriage would lose or contribute to Labour losing the 2014 election. Do you do you think it did contribute to that loss back in 2014? - Oh, look, on hindsight, you always sort of see things a little bit more clearer. Certainly, there was quite a lot of angst from our community with regard to that. But given the law has passed, we've all recognised the fact that these are our children. They belong to our communities. We need to recognise their individuality and their human rights. - And so, to that end, where do you stand on your government's plans to ban gay conversion therapy? - Those discussions are still happening at the moment within` at the ministerial level. There's still to be discussion whether that becomes a conscience vote issue or whether it becomes a vote that everybody would support. - Your personal view? - Oh, look, I'm still working through my way on that. - I mean, just talking about the rights of those young people, so don't the rights of those young people stand within the`? - And so that's the lens I'm bringing into it. I think we've got to be conscious, also, that there is a line between the rights of individuals and the rights of belief and the right of religion, and I think we've just got to work our way through to sort of balance that out to accommodate the wider wishes of the community. - Do you think it can work? Do you think that homosexuality can be cured? - Look, I'm not a scientist, and what I'm been hearing from young people` - I'm not sure it's a matter of science, is it? - Oh, I mean, there are different views on this, but my view is I've got to accept what the person is telling me. - And if people are telling you that this is their identity, either their gender identity or their sexuality, then that stands? - Yes, yes. I think we do need to recognise that. - OK. - But there's elements from the community who are also wondering about their rights to be able to continue to bless their children. - Mm. - And I think there is a line that we've just got to have more constructive conversations around. - But studies have shown as well that gay conversion therapy has, in young people, increased the risk of suicide, anxiety, depression, homelessness, substance abuse. So what about the rights of young people, or people in general, to be who they are? - And absolutely, I think the extremities of that is something that we all abhor. But there's nuances also along that line where I think we've got to give some greater consideration. But the starting point for me is to recognise that a young person, an individual who feels the way that they are, whether whatever sex or orientation they believe, we need to respect and acknowledge. - Minister, thank you very much for your time this morning. Kia ora. - Thank you very much. - Thank you. If you have a news tip to share with Newshub Nation, you can reach us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, NewshubNationNZ, or email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. Still to come ` discussion of the week's political news with our panel. And he used to run the United Nations humanitarian office in Jerusalem, taking aid to the West Bank and Gaza. David Shearer's analysis of the strife in Israel, Palestine and our government's response. peacekeeping mission in South Sudan. But earlier in his career, he headed the UN office in Jerusalem, taking humanitarian support to the West Bank and Gaza. Tena koe, David. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. - Lovely to see you Tova, thanks. - And you. Just want to start with the fact that Israeli ground troops have been deployed. What does this signify in terms of any hope of imminent de-escalation? - Well, I mean, it's been pretty clear that, from Prime Minister Netanyahu that he's not ready to stop right now. And the step up of putting ground troops in follows what they did in 2014, which is a significant step up, because what they're trying to do is to at least degrade the ability of Hamas to fire rockets. But it is a very` it's generally very expensive in terms of lives, particularly Palestinian lives, but also Israeli. In 2014, in the last conflict there, there was 2200 Palestinians lost their lives and about 75-odd Israelis. Most of those were soldiers who were on that ground force. - Are you concerned we're going` we're going down that path again? - Look, it seems very, very clear. I mean, the US has said to Israel, look, try and back off. And Israel said, no, we're not ready yet. So it does seem that it's going down a` well, certainly for the next few days, anyway, it's going to be going down a more perilous path. And I think there's some important points to make on what is different between now and 2014. I mean, we had the same sort of episodes happening then. What we're seeing now, though, is Hamas being able to reach places in Israel with their rockets that they were not able to do seven years ago. So they've really developed their rocket technology. In addition to that, we're seeing Palestinian Israelis and remember that Israel is made up of 20% Arab, those Arabs and the Israeli Jews are clashing in towns where they were very mixed. And at the same time, more disruption today on the West Bank where, again, Palestinians are demonstrating rioting. So it's escalated more and dangerously across a wider range of issues than it has done in 2014. - And the immediate conflict appears to have been sparked by the threat of Palestinian families losing their home in Sheikh Jarrar. You used to live and work near there. Can you explain the tensions in that particular area? - It's really palpable. I mean, where we had our office was right across the road from where Palestinians had lost their homes. And the use of both legal means, physical means and obviously paying off Palestinians to sell their homes to Israelis, these Israeli settlers, has meant that it's undermining and causing this extraordinary tension. East Jerusalem has always been seen as being the part of Jerusalem that's going to be the capital of a Palestinian state. And the settlers keep on undermining that by buying up areas of land in East Jerusalem, in addition to the massive amount of settlement activity that's taking place in the West Bank, when I was there a decade ago, there were 450,000 Israeli Jews living in Jerusalem and in the West Bank. Today, that's 650,000. So it's gone up 200,000. It really` You start to question, how can you have a two-state solution, when that state is going to have 650,000 Israelis living in it? It's starting to feel like it's not going to happen. - Yeah, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts a bit more on that. Do you think a two-state solution is still possible? - Well, that's what everybody says. I mean, you know, two states living side by side in peace. But you look at Gaza. I mean, Gaza is a place that's on the Mediterranean, half the size of the Coromandel Peninsula with two million people living inside it. And then on the other side, you have the West Bank with three million Palestinians living there, but about more than 250 settlements and Israeli townships and settlements living in that West Bank. Now, how do you have a state where you're literally going around or skirting Israeli towns? And to think that those towns, 650,000 people or even a fraction of those are going to move is, I think, is fantasy. So the question really becomes, what is the solution? And the real problem that underlies all of this violence is that the peace process has broken down for the last, well, many years now. But while that peace process is broken down, there has been increasing occupation and settlement activity going on, so the Palestinians are becoming extraordinarily frustrated because they're seeing no settlement, but their future being, basically, chipped away at. - And the Foreign Affairs Minister has put out a statement saying the situation is concerning. Should Nanaia Mahuta have come out stronger than that? - Well, she's saying more or less what others are saying. I mean, I think what we need to be able to say very, very forcefully, that there needs to be, one, a cessation of the hostilities that are going on. I mean, you're only going to get more and more children being killed in Gaza and Israelis being killed in Israel. But and also, I mean, bring in the ambassador and say, look, this is unacceptable, and today, if you're going to be a modern nation, dropping huge amounts of explosives into an incredibly tight, small area is disproportionate. - So the fact that she's not calling in the ambassador herself at this stage, I think it's just her officials talking to the Israeli ambassador, so that is that kind of not far enough on behalf of the Foreign Minister? - Well... That's a call. I mean, I've only just arrived, so I'm not quite sure what other things have gone on. But definitely what we're seeing at the moment is growing international disquiet around what's happening, but a, seemingly, an inability of the international community of the world, if you like, to be able to try and stop things. I mean, as I say, the United States and President Biden has come out and said, you know, pull back on the hostilities, and Israel has turned around saying we're not ready yet. We're not quite ready yet. Hamas has continued to fire rockets, but seems to be willing to think about a truce. But it looks like the conflict is going to go on for certainly over the next few days. And that means hundreds of people, more people will be killed. - When I was there in 2017, it had been three years since the last conflict. But everyone in Gaza, everyone in the West Bank, still felt on tenterhooks. Is that ever going to change? Is everyone always just going to feel like the next conflict is coming, even if this one` when this one resolves? - Well, what's been happening over the, well, certainly over the last 20 years, is that there's been an attempt to try and manage something, rather than resolve it. So there's been an attempt to try and make sure that, you know, Gaza is kind of okay. It's not starving or whatever, but that's not resolving the underlying issues. And the underlying issues is that Palestinians are being occupied by Israel. There's` Human Rights Watch came out with a report last week calling it apartheid with very, very strong language. But it's a 200 page, very, very well researched document. Unless we resolve the underlying issues, this will continue to go on. And the really worrying thing about it is that, as it remains unresolved, these sorts of episodes of violence are going to going to continue. But also that Hamas's technology, in terms of rocket power, appears to be growing stronger and stronger. So it's an unsustainable situation. But as I say, there's no real sense, that I get, anyway, that Israel wants to kerb the settlement activities and, from both sides, be able to sit down and compromise. - David Shearer, there. Thank you very much for your time, David. Appreciate it. Thank you. - Lovely. Good to see you. Thank you. - Today marks the two year anniversary of the Christchurch call, but what has it actually achieved? Our digital editor, Finn Hogan, can answer that for us on our latest episode of Supplementary Question, NewsHub Nation's Voyageur nominated podcast series, out now wherever you get your podcasts. And up next, analysis from our political panel, Efeso Collins, Marg Joiner, and Litia Tuiburelevu. Plus, what happens to a country when half its jobs cease to exist? Anna Bracewell-Worrall checks in with Fiji. - Hoki mai ano. Welcome back, I'm joined now by our panel, Auckland counsellor Efeso Collins, lawyer and academic, Litia Tuiburelevu, and public policy specialist Marg Joiner. Tena koutou, thank you very much for being here this morning. Lots to talk about, starting with those` those really grim statistics, unfortunately, that came out today. The child` ah, this week ` the child poverty statistics. Almost half of Pasifika children not getting enough food. Efeso, were you surprised by those numbers? - No, I'm not surprised. This is a huge indictment on our society. The fact that almost half of our kids, the ones that live in our homes, have not enough food to get through the week. This` we need a government that's going to be much more ambitious for our families. We can't have this constant undertow, because that's what they've been described as, is an undertow. We've got to lift our families. So it's unacceptable that we've got these kinds of stats. - And does it feel like the government's doing enough, Litia? This government? - No. And I, you know, I agree with what Efeso has said. I think child poverty is` and the term is a misnomer because we're talking really about money and households, and money within families because, you know, children aren't income earners, and unfortunately, they are bearing the brunt of a lot of this economic system and structures that` that is happening in our communities. But I would like to see more bold, progressive action by our government to implement the many suggestions that have been put to them, that are based on research and is based on evidence and not to have, you know, spines of oatmeal. We need to` We actually need to do something to have a better future for our children. - Because it's not just the child poverty stats, is it? It's like, you know, there's inequality across the` across the board with the statistics looking at the social housing wait list, looking at that transfer waitlist. Do you think` I mean, it seems weird to me that Labour can still kick back to National on this. Do you think that that's fair? - Yeah, Litia said the word action. And I think that's the thing that's missing at the moment. So the statistics are not looking good. Child wellbeing is one of three priorities for this government, alongside housing affordability and climate change. So the pressure is on. The government isn't hiding from these statistics, that came out this week, but they definitely need this pressure there to see some delivery, and as Litia said, the action as well. The minister has a lot of pressure on him in particular to deliver to that specific community. Um, yeah. - And so too, the immigration minister there. Do you` do you have a good feeling about whether the government might offer an amnesty to overstayers? - I think, in the end, there'll be a recommendation from the Minister of Pacific peoples, who did really well in this interview today, and it's good that you've had him on, because we've got to bring Pacific issues to the fore. I think there will be an apology. And I think` As I've asked for many years, that we have an amnesty. So that's part of the action. Don't just be sorry, be better. And be better means we offer an amnesty to those thousands of people who are in hiding, many of whom are hiding from a COVID injection that's going to help them, but because they're in families where they're the overstayers. So I expect that there will be an amnesty. - That's right. I mean, it put Pacific lives at risk, didn't it, during COVID, that fear and the Prime Minister even had to come out and offer that assurance that overstayers wouldn't be busted if they went to get a test. So if the government can do that and often those assurances, can it also offer a path to residency? - Yes. Well, it can. And I think the best apology is changed behaviour. And this is a very tangible way that we can move towards that, as well as looking at some of our other legislative issues, such as the` one of the most sort of racist laws in our country about the Western citizenship` Western Samoa Citizenship Act, that needs to be overturned as well. And that has, you know, a history that links into the dawn raids and New Zealand's administration over Western Samoa. So, there are tangible steps that we can put in, and that pathway to residency is certainly one of them. - And` because, the language from that, I mean, we're looking towards the new` the big immigration reset on Monday, I think Minister Faafoi is going to announce, the language from the prime minister is moving away from low skill, low wage migrants. So without that amnesty, do we risk making it so much harder? - Yeah, potentially, and I think there's also this wanting to try something new, and that's always a good thing. But, I mean, Looking` taking it up a bit broader, the ambitious reform programme within which they're trying to do these things is quite heroic and with some really brutal time frames. So I guess there's always that risk of, if you're trying to do too much in too short a time, losing traction or not getting the traction you need. So I think there's a risk there, that we won't get what we need. - And moving on to gay conversion therapy, what did you think, Litia, of the minister's comments there? Do you think that maybe he's changing his lens through which he sees these issues, or same spot? - I mean, it is... Personally, I do find it disappointing that we, sort of` there was sort of this argument that we've got to balance the, I believe it was rights of religion to the individual and I just` There is just no ` in my perspective ` there is just no moral argument for why we should be continuing conversion therapy. There is` It is completely abhorrent. It is` And, you know, as a Pasifika person and for our community, if we want to be upholding community values and welcoming our community and embracing everybody, then this simply just cannot exist. And I'd like to see more direct action and just, you know, clear statements from ministers on that. - We know the minister has good relationships with civic religious leaders, but is he listening to other Pacific voices like Litia's, do you think, Efeso? - Yeah, I think he is, and that's the challenge he has. Look, he's representative of a predominantly socially conservative older group of people. So he's got to balance those discussions. But I think he is listening and it's about how he makes those decisions. But it's making sure that he's got his door open to young people, in particular, to those who've been left out. And I think the church has to come to this discussion as well. And that's who he's trying to get. Look, I think he should be a minister in Cabinet. I don't know why he's not in Cabinet, but that's where he is able to front foot some of these discussions so that the Cabinet understand just how much the tension is in managing these discussions. But I think he'll be supportive of it, in the end. - Do you think you need science to know whether gay conversion therapy works? - I don't know about that. But I'd like to reiterate Efeso's comments about, one, having him here today was good. Really good visibility over a decade as the local MP in Mangere and also throughout Aotearoa in those communities, but not so much in the public. And it's really good to hear his thinking and see that. And he is` he is really representing multiple, kind of, views in that constituency, and that is a challenge. So I think he's doing well, and I agree. It was a good interview. - And your sense is that an apology is coming on the dawn raids? The fact that the minister has not asked for any advice about compensation, is that problematic, do you think, Litia? - Um... Yes. (ALL LAUGH) - Is that obvi` Is that` Does that need to go hand in hand, an apology, compensation, and then also policy change? Is that how we address the wrongs of the past? - Yeah, I mean, I` I don't want to be sort of dismissive of the minister's comments. I mean, it was a great interview, but it` You know, like I said, the best apology is changed behaviour. And there is` The Panthers and, you know, the groups have really put forward tangible steps in order to make that happen, and this government, any government, but this government can, you know, directly make those changes be realised and action, you know, pathways to residency. And, you know, apology is a good starting point. But there's more that we need to do on top of that as well. - What are the intergenerational impacts, Efeso? - Well, I think the fact that many of our young people don't know about the dawn raids, we know Dawn Raids, the hip-hop group, but we don't know the dawn raids that happened in the 70s. My wife used to teach history in a high school and she introduced dawn raids, teaching it alongside Te Tiriti o Waitangi, And the kids in her class, who were year 9 and 10 were absolutely shocked, thinking, did this really happen? We don't teach that stuff. We don't talk about the Mau, when New Zealand went in and shot peaceful protesters in Samoa and killed 11 of our people on Black Saturday. So all of these things we haven't taught. And I think part of our problem is we don't want to hold up the mirror to who we really are and what's happened in our history. So if you've got all of that, it's no wonder our young people disengage. Look, if we don't tell them to front up, if we don't have them understanding what happened in the dawn raids, they're going to disengage with society and that's how they end up in youth gangs. It's a very easy logic to me. - Thank you all very much for your time and your insights this morning. Marg, Litia, and Efeso. Kia ora koutou. - Kia ora, thank you. - Kia ora. - Up next, Anna Bracewell-Worrell's report on the long road back for Fiji. Plus, Green MP Golriz Ghahraman gets five minutes to convince you she'd make a better Foreign Affairs Minister than Nanaia Mahuta. When Fiji closed its borders to the world, overnight it lost a third of its economy. We catch up with hoteliers, flight attendants and souvenir sellers whose lives have changed completely. Anna Bracewell-Worrall with this report. How do you sell souvenirs when there are no tourists? Mohammad Iraq's been selling them in Suva, Fiji, for 45 years. His answer is, you don't. - Very difficult to sell to the locals. There's no one here. But he keeps on paying for the bus into town, keeps on paying rent for the stall. Oh, my sister is helping out for me. At the beginning of 2020, life here was different. Tourism was booming. In February, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern was on her last international visit here in Fiji. - How was the Kava? - Oh, very good, thank you. - Within days, COVID would arrive in Auckland. - New Zealand has its first confirmed case of coronavirus. - Weeks later, Fiji closed its borders. Airports would empty, hotels closed. At the time, Flight attendant Alma Philitoga was still in shock from the death of her husband in January 2020. - Um, it hasn't been easy. - Her employer, Fiji Airways, would cling on for a few weeks. But in May it laid off 700 people. Alma lost her job of 20 years. - So many emotions; anger, frustration. You either stand up, or you just stay in that tunnel, I guess, that hole, that pit. - Her colleague Kesaia Delaibau had also spent 20 years flying. She and her husband both lost their jobs in the economic downturn. - Every day is a tough one for us. We can see that life has been easy. It's really been tough for us. But we thank God. Joape Anare too, is adjusting after losing his job at Tanoa International Hotel. - My redundant letter from work, I called my mum; I was crying a bit at the same time, and what she thought and said that you can always have another job. Your family will always be here for you. You can always come back home. - His job in tourism once meant he could support the wider family. In the last year, it was his turn to need help. - Last year has definitely had its tough moments. Sometimes I wake up, I don't have food. I'm glad that there's a small NGO` Some NGOs that came in to provide support for us, and I'm thankful for that. It has been tough. - These are not unusual stories. In 2020, government revenue plummeted 38.5%, The economy contracted 19%. Job vacancies dropped 78%. The World Bank described it as the most severe contraction in Fiji's history. There was massive internal migration as people moved to their home villages where they didn't have to pay rent and could grow food. But gardening doesn't create the cash to get a business going. - Some of us that are lacking in capital, it's pretty hard for us to do such businesses. - Support's come from three main sources charity, government food parcels and grants, and, crucially, family networks, supplemented by microbusinesses. After her husband's death, Almas been supported by her daughters and has tried selling gift bags and home baking. Her latest enterprise learnt off the Internet. - So I thought I'd try something different, and I came up with cream cheese thanks to YouTube. So I decided to just make my own cream cheese at home, and I just` the support of friends and family. - And Joape is getting into fishing. - We've learned that we can utilise the sea to sustain our livelihood. We can not always depend on what the government can provide for us. - At the moment, he can only look at the sea because while we were filming, Fiji, got the news no one wanted to hear. - We have another nine cases of COVID-19 to confirm today. - Community outbreak of COVID-19. For those in New Zealand with family in Fiji, it can be hard to watch the double whammy of a struggling economy and a COVID outbreak. At Rotuman Language Week celebrations, Tupou Mafile'o says she's been sending money back to Fiji to help out relatives. - Sometimes it can be $50. But I tell my sister, please, this is from the kids. - It means missing out on treats. - We used to have McDonalds at least every second week, which is Mum's payweek. But now we'll sacrifice it and say, hey, we'll just go once a month. Remittances, that's money gifted by overseas relatives, reached record highs in 2020, displacing tourism as Fiji's biggest source of foreign income. That's money coming from some of New Zealand's lowest-paid workers. There's a Pacific pay gap in New Zealand of 19.5%. - Our people are very hardworking people, but just finding the deposits to put down on a house is quite difficult, because a lot of them tend to send money back home, because they support families in Fiji. Apisalome Movono has been studying the effect of COVID-19 on Pacific Islands. People are thinking twice about returning to tourism. - When they return to work in tourism, they want to do so on their own terms. And it's it means that they get a couple of hours to work at the resort, but also a couple of hours to tend to their gardens. - He says the government should reflect on its overreliance on tourism. - It has the ability to actually pivot, reframe, rethink and reset tourism in Fiji to ensure that it benefits local people. - It's been a year of massive change and learning for those made jobless, but there have been silver linings, including time with family. - My children really appreciate it a lot, even though we don't get any more money to the household, but it's just that quality time with our family. - It was like I was thrown into the ocean and I have to find myself to learn how to swim. And then with time and with support from family, I finally learnt how to survive without a job, with a small business. - The lesson for me would be to be grateful, grateful and content with whatever little you have there. - But she's still pining, at least a little, for life in 2019. - Problem is the shopping. (LAUGHS) The shopping and all my friends. But mostly the shopping. Stay with us. We're back after the break. Golriz Gharaman is the Green Party spokesperson for both foreign affairs and human rights. So with violence escalating in Gaza, Finn Hogan started by asking her what her first action would be as minister. - I would recognise, officially, the state of Palestine. I think that's the first step to recognising the humanity of the Palestinian community and people, who are the main victims of this atrocity. I wouldn't characterise it as a conflict with two sides, because one side has one of the world's most powerful militaries. Um, the other side sort of has rockets and a no man's land between them. - There were 27 children killed so far, that we know of. And as you say, there's a disproportionate use of force by Israel. Should Nanaia Mahuta be more forceful at calling out Israel on that use of force? - This is the problem with successive governments of Aotearoa. We're talking about a settler colony that's never kept to its internationally recognised borders. We're talking about the atrocity of forcible movement of people, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, maybe. But actually this is all happening, and has been happening for many years in what should have been peace time. - Is Israel an apartheid state? - I think there's certainly aspects of apartheid happening when we talk about, for example, Gaza and the access to vaccines. - But you wouldn't be comfortable labelling it officially as that? - I would. But I also feel like when there is an atrocity happening right now, our duty is to act. And I think often Western states get a little bit bogged down with labelling things. - Let's talk a little bit about labels. The government stopped short of labelling the persecution of Uyghurs by the Chinese government as genocide. Is this simply a problem of being cowed by our economic dependence on China? - I think we are at our best when we act as an independent, principled voice on the world stage. That means pulling out our traditional so-called allies and trading partners. I think they respect us when we do that. - We've got a third of our trade going to China. Would you look to end that kind of reliance on Chinese trade, were you the minister in charge? - I think what we need to do is to end our reliance on trade that's not sustainable, that doesn't uphold our own international and domestic obligations in terms of workers rights, human rights, our obligations pursuant to the Treaty of Waitangi and our climate change obligations and commitments to protect our own environment. - In 2018, you said a lot of the concern about China's growing economic influence in the Pacific was being driven by xenophobia. Is that still true in 2021? - I think focussing on China without looking at the substantive standards that we want to see in humanitarian aid and trade and actually in debt relief, which is the key problem now for the Pacific, coming out of COVID, is what we should do. Yes, we should call out China if its coming in there as a new colonial force, but we should look at how we also are engaging. - We've seen a 20% decrease in GDP in Fiji, 50% of jobs lost. Should New Zealand to be doing more to step up to help Fiji? - Absolutely. So Fiji's economy relied, before the pandemic, 70% on tourism. A lot of that was probably from New Zealand, but from other places as well. What I know and I've confirmed this with the head of humanitarian aid for MFAT, based in the Pacific, is that we need to look beyond aid. That's not going to solve the Pacific problem. - So what does that look like? - It looks like debt recovery. So we need to acknowledge that really, really harmful debt models exist in the developing world. And what New Zealand has started to do, and I'm really glad, is to try and help advocate for high cost debt to be transformed into lower cost debt models so that that interest isn't crippling. But I do think it's about time we have a conversation at a global level about forgiving Third World debt. - There's one hundred million dollars from New Zealand Super Fund that has been found to be linked to companies selling military equipment in Myanmar. Were you Trade Minister, what action would you take to make sure those investments don't happen? - The Super Fund is not an ordinary trader or an investor. The Super Fund is absolutely answerable to the people of New Zealand. Its ability to invest is governed by law. And I think` The minister is actually Grant Robertson, rather than all of the MFAT stuff that we've been talking about with Nanaia ` I think it's time he stepped in, because` - Stepped in how, exactly? - To enforce the law, to ask questions about who was responsible here and to look at their models. I actually met with them personally, when I received that dossier of investments and they went through their systems with me. They do have systems, but clearly they're not good enough. - What would you say to someone who now looks at the Greens and says you don't have the same seat at the table you did with the previous government, and has lost faith in the Greens' ability to effect real change? - I think it's actually a really exciting time for people who voted for progressive change to see that Labour is not the party that can deliver it. - You can be more honest. - We can be more honest and we can be more bold with the vision that we present, and I think it will become more and more clear to voters who the real progressive party is in New Zealand politics. Golriz Ghahraman there. We're back with our panel, Efeso Collins, Litia Tuiburelevu and Marg Joiner. Marg, suggestions there from the Minister that no one should be travelling to the Cook Islands unless they've been vaccinated. Does he have a good point? - Well, I think everyone needs to be cautious, and the government has said themselves they are coming at this with an abundance of caution. So I guess that's the lens he's taking there. But I think more broadly speaking, in terms of the Pacific in our relationship there, and there is a sense of how we've been as good a neighbour as we should. And in particular, there's an expectation when the times of good of that relationship, and then when times get a bit tough, I think that's a question that has arisen probably from some communities. - And given what happened with the exporting of influenza and measles, do you think the government's memory is perhaps too short on this stuff? - Yeah, I think it's as Marg said, it's important to remember, you know, New Zealand is a Pacific nation, and they're not just out there. They are part of our whanaunga. And we need to` We have obligations to them as part of our family. And I think the abundance of caution approach, is with that living memory of measles, influenza, needs to be taken because the last thing we want to do is put a strain on their healthcare system, and they will not be able to handle that, and I know people want to go for their holidays and everything, but, you know, for many of us, those are our families. Those are our communities. And we need to be respectful of that and ensure that their safety is paramount. - And one of the interesting differences about the Cook Islands bubble versus the Trans Tasman bubble is that we will be bringing New Zealanders, if, heaven forbid we do, COVID ends up in the Cooks, probably because of us. We will be bringing New Zealanders back so we don't put a strain on the healthcare system. Should we also be bringing Cook Islanders to New Zealand as part of it, to perhaps to perhaps give them the healthcare that New Zealand can provide? - Yes, we should. They are part of the realm of New Zealand, and it's important that we treat the Cook Islands, Niue, Tokelau, with the respect that the realm provides. I think that's a discussion that we haven't had really. Well, we've avoided it a little bit. And it's still, you know, even in our area, there's still a level of hesitancy. So we've got to encourage people to take the vaccine once they've read through the information. - I want to touch a bit on Israel Palestine as well. Nanaia Mahuta ` her officials have met with the Israeli Ambassador, but should she be meeting with him herself, given the gravity of the situation? - Look, Tova, that, I mean, it's heartbreaking what's going on, and it's so complex and beyond my expertise to comment on, I'd say, and we saw that in David's interview, the complexities conveyed there, and the absolute heartbreak as well. But, yeah. Well, do you guys have thoughts on that? Should we be going further? Should the foreign minister be going further rather than just the statement that we've seen? - Look, David Shearer said that there are some huge underlying issues. We have just come to the end of Ramadan, and this is happening in that part of the world. And look, we've got to be able to reach compromise to reach peace. if they're not prepared to sit down. This is going to be a feature that the West and the international parties can jump in all they want, but these are` The bottom line is we're talking about Abrahamic connections, and it's important that we support them in sitting down. But I think the Minister does need to go a bit further. - Mm-hm. And on the Samoan elections as well, just phenomenal scenes over there, really, isn't it? Deadlocks created as well by this this new seat being introduced. Do you think that the Samoan diaspora, Litia, do you think that they should be able to vote in the elections? - Honestly, I can't say I'm too across the Samoan election. It is a very complex and as someone who's not Samoan, I would probably defer my question. - What about` Do think that New Zealanders outside of New Zealand, Should we be able to vote in our elections? So when I was living in London, I could vote in New Zealand elections. Do you think that someone's living out of Samoa should be able to vote in the elections? I don't think they should. I think that what we have at the moment is you have to be in Samoa in a certain amount of time. You've got to show commitment there. Look, we all send remittances back to Samoa. Every Samoan does. Every family is doing that. But I think you've got to base yourself and understand the issues. And the prime minister who says he's appointed by God, next week is a big week. The high court come out with a decision they're already really set up for elections. Who knows what will happen? - Yeah. Exactly. I think there's one thing that is certain, who knows what can happen? Thank you all so much for your time, again, Efeso, Litia and Marg Joiner. Thank you very much. - Thanks, Tova. - That's all from us for now. Thanks for watching. We'll be back with a Newshub Nation live budget day special at 2:00 pm on Thursday. Hei kona mai, see you then. Captions by Sally Harper, Alex Walker and John Gibbs. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 This programme was made with the assistance of the New Zealand on Air platinum fund.