- Today on Newshub Nation ` New Zealand's education system used to be the jewel in our crown, copied around the world, but not any more. Education Minister Chris Hipkins joins us live. Snapchats, screenshots and cybersex ` why our online protections need an overhaul. And a quarter of New Zealand children are spending more than six hours a day on screens, and that's just at home. Anna Bracewell-Worrall asks how much is too much? www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 Kia ora, good morning. I'm Tova O'Brien. Welcome to Newshub Nation. Ko nga pitopito korero i te Whare Paremata, in political news this week ` former National candidate Jake Bezzant has been accused of impersonating women online to solicit cybersex with men. A second woman has also come forward amid suggestions there may be more. Bezzant said there are two sides to this story. Veteran MP Nick Smith is retiring from parliament, effective June 10. He cited a leaked investigation into a verbal altercation between him and a staffer from last July. He'll be replaced by Harete Hipango. And as Melbourne enters its second week of lockdown, some relief for stranded Kiwis ` quarantine-free 'green flights' will bring them home, starting Wednesday. Flights will be restricted to New Zealand residents and citizens and will require a pre-departure test. We're speaking to the Education Minister shortly about a lot, including why the system is failing Maori, but first, we look at where it's really working for Maori kids. They're excelling in dedicated immersion school. Students who learn in te reo Maori have better results than the rest of the country. and they're more likely than the average student to leave school with NCEA. Senior reporter Conor Whitten explains. - At Te Wharekura o Ngati Rongomai in Rotorua, education and culture sit side by side. - Anywhere they go, they're strong in who they are. - Every lesson taught in te reo Maori. - Tena koe. - The first school in the country to use the Maori calendar, built around Matariki, the Maori new year. Term one starts in July. - And that's talking about us as a Maori people, us as a Maori culture. - Ka pai. - It's a Kaupapa Maori education, and the results speak for themselves. - Kura Maori are actually outstripping mainstream schools in terms of our output and our results. - It's a story repeated across the country where Maori are struggling in mainstream education, but thriving in Kura, or Maori schools. Less than two thirds of Maori in mainstream schooling leave with NCEA Level 2. In Kura, it's nearly 80%. And in the last year of school, it's clearer ` just a third of Maori in mainstream schooling leave with NCEA Level 3, but at Kura it's more than half; four points ahead of the national average; Maori beating the rest of their peers. - We are producing the best results. Imagine what we could do if there was more investment in Kura Kaupapa Maori. - Despite those results, Kura fight for funding. - We've started with $16,000 to run the school, one staff person, which was tuku. There's the kaiako, the cleaner, the bus driver. Yeah, they're everything. - Ngati Rongomai's Kura began on the marae. - This is where it all started from. - And you had 40 kids in here? - Yeah. - And the number enrolling in Maori schooling hasn't grown much in the last 10 years. The Maori Party says they need more funding. - I don't think any government does enough for Maori students, and so we need to look at a level playing field in terms of the resources going into Maori-medium schools. - And education experts agree. - This is the place where our students are more likely to succeed, therefore Kura Kaupapa is the place that is most wisest for the Ministry of Education for government investment. - A plea to invest in Maori children, to allow them to shift to the top of the class. - Conor Whitten reporting there. Joining me now is the minister in charge of educating our rangatahi, Chris Hipkins. Lots of issues to talk about in education. But first, chuck your COVID-19 hat on for a moment. Thank you for joining us, Minister. Vaccinations ` you said we'd be at the start of the queue, but where are we actually? - We're doing very well in terms of vaccinations, based on what we've had delivered. Our vaccination campaign continues to ramp up. We did about 23,000 the day before yesterday ` I haven't had yesterday's results yet. So we're seeing more and more, day on day, being done. But the big constraint that's stopped us really ramping up is supply. - Yeah. And Ashley Bloomfield said that we always knew we would be constrained by supply, so why did you say that we'd be at the front? - Well, when we made that decision, I mean, a lot's changed since then. We were buying four different vaccines at that point. We made the decision in January to narrow that down and just go with Pfizer, and when we made that decision, we did know that it meant that the second half of the year was going to be when the bulk of our vaccines arrived in the country. - But the timeline keeps slipping, right? Because 60% of group one, high-risk people, yet to be vaccinated, to get their first jab. Only half of border worker families. That Group three, the over-65s and the immunocompromised, supposed to get vaccinated in May, some of them have been pushed out to August. So you've broken your promise. - No, we've always said that there would be overlap between groups. Our key group, group one` - Slipping, rather than overlapping. - Group one, which is really where the biggest risk is, that's our boarder workers and so on, we've put a real emphasis on getting through that. - Families though, Minister. - In terms of the families, that's a challenge because it's voluntary. They need to come forward. And what we've found is, you know, as they've come forward, we've vaccinated them. But not all of them have been coming forward. - And a report into managed isolation and quarantine failings this week confirms what we already knew ` the high-trust model simply wasn't working. It meant that that security guard who caught COVID-19 was saying that he was being tested for five months, when, in fact, he wasn't. So do you acknowledge that your complacency put our safety at risk? - Oh, look, I think that we could have been tighter, absolutely. And we are now tightening that up. - You put New Zealand's safety at risk. - Well, I think we have to recognise that this was a system that's been established in a hurry. Yes, we've learnt a lot along the way. It continues to get better, but there's still room for improvement. - Jacinda Ardern called that guy a liar. Given that that testing register was a failing of the government, should she apologise to him? - Well, no. He was clearly giving information to suggest that he had been tested when he hadn't been, and that is unacceptable. - But it was your register that was also not working, not functioning as it should. - There were a variety of things in there, but actually, no matter how good your safeguards are, if people deliberately set out to mislead, then that's going to be a problem. - Yeah, but you guys could have caught him. You could have caught that lie. You could have caught that failing. So should she apologise for throwing him under the bus unilaterally? - Well, no. I mean, ultimately, regardless of that, he was being dishonest. - OK. Let's move on to education. Conor Whitten's story showed us that immersive learning for Maori has spectacular results. Do you think that model should be rolled out nationwide? Should we have a Kura Kaupapa or Maori immersion unit within or alongside every school in New Zealand? - I think there's huge potential for the expansion of Maori-medium education, so immersion language education. We put another $70 million in, just in this year's budget, to building more facilities for exactly that. - Would you like to see it in every school? - I would like to see te reo Maori available in every school. - Would you like to see it compulsory in every school? - I would like to see all Kiwi kids given the opportunity to learn te reo Maori. It's something I didn't have the opportunity to learn when I was at school. It's something I hope my kids will have the opportunity to learn. - Why available and not compulsory? - Look, ultimately, kids and parents do make choices about what they want young people to learn. I think this whole debate about compulsion really doesn't help us. The use of the word compulsion doesn't help us. We don't say that reading is compulsory. Kids just do it. I think te reo Maori` - Reading is also compulsory. - Yeah, but we don't use that language, do we? So te reo Maori should be available alongside English, alongside` - A core part of the curriculum? - It should be there in schools. Every school should be doing it. I'd like every kid to learn the basics of te reo Maori. I'd like every kid to be able to walk onto a marae and do a mihi, to introduce themselves. I think that would be fantastic. - What about just making it compulsory, or whatever word you want to use that's equivalent, in teacher training colleges, so that it can be available to every single student in New Zealand? - Look, one of the biggest challenges we've got around delivering better in terms of Maori language and Maori immersion, and those are two different things ` I want kids who are learning in English to be able to learn the basics of te reo Maori as well. And then obviously, I want as many kids as want to learn in immersion language to be able to do that. The biggest constraint is a workforce constraint. So we need fluent te reo Maori teachers to come forward and train to be teachers, and we just don't have enough people doing that. - But we can also train our teachers to be fluent Maori speakers. - And we can do that. But, you know, confidence with the languages is a key thing. So we're spending a lot of money at the moment providing block course training, effectively, for our existing teaching workforce. So, if you fast forward 20 years to the future, the majority of people who are teaching 20 years from now are already teaching today. So we've got to have professional development for them so that they have the opportunity to get confident in te reo Maori, so that they can use it in their teaching. - Upshot is you won't make it compulsory for teachers at teachers college, though, right? - Look, this more of it happening now. Again, I don't think the use of the word compulsion is necessarily helpful. - OK. You're rolling out a programme called Te Hurihanganui. The Education Ministry policy document says it means recognising white privilege, understanding racism, inequity faced by Maori and disrupting that status quo to strengthen equity. Should teaching white privilege be a part of the curriculum? - Look, white privilege isn't a phrase that I would use. I don't think it's particularly helpful. Now, I recognise that it's used in Te Hurihanganui. - It's on a banned list of words, like compulsory. - I just don't think it's a helpful phrase, necessarily. But I do think people being able to understand power imbalances in society, I think that is a good thing for kids to understand, being able to understand inequality. I do think those are useful` - Can you just explain why you don't think white privilege is a useful term? - Just because it generates a reaction from people that actually puts up a barrier to them genuinely engaging in a conversation about power and balance. And one of the things that you have to do when you're talking about` - Do you believe it exists, white privilege? - Yes, I do. But when we're talking` - So what's so wrong with the term then? Just call a spade a spade. - It's a bit like the use of the word racism ` it just puts up a barrier to people engaging constructively when actually you want to get people to step out of their comfort zone a little bit. You want to create a space where people can say, 'Actually, I will reflect on my own views and my own practise, and maybe I am wrong.' But just putting up simplistic phrases that get people's backs up actually discourages them from engaging in that kind of debate. - It's a bit like what Rawiri Waititi said in the House. You know, what is unconscious bias? Is that bias when you're asleep? If something is racist or if white privilege exists, which you've acknowledged it has, why not call it what it is? - Look, cultural norms change. Some behaviour that is racist, that was acceptable 30 or 40 years ago is no longer acceptable now. And that's a great thing, but we have to acknowledge that there are still people who were raised in that culture, 30 or 40 years ago, and we have to bring them on a journey. And I think that we have to do that in a way that builds them up, rather than makes them, you know, rather than tears them down. - This is a bit like you lot were with He Puapua though, right? The opposition got a lot of grief for dog-whistling or race-baiting, but you guys actually started it by not front-footing it, not front-footing that conversation about partnership. Why are you afraid to own addressing inequity? - Oh, I'm not, and I'm absolutely committed to doing that. But we've got to do that in a way that brings people along. There's no point in getting people's backs up and getting them to shut off from the debate. And that's why I think a mature debate is important. And I think throwing labels around is not part of a mature debate. I think what we've actually got to do, to say to people, everyone has some unconscious bias. I do, and I have to regularly reflect on that and say, actually, what are the assumptions, what are the biases that I have that are informing this decision? And is that fair and is that right? - New Zealand history is about to become part of the core curriculum. The draft's out. It's been criticised by the Royal Society as having big gaps. Does it? Because 600 years of Maori settlement is missing. That seems like a big omission. - It's a very, very high-level framework initially, but we are consulting. And one of the things we want to hear from is the communities, and we want to hear from communities, What do you think's missing? What do you think is good? What do you think should be better? So we've heard from the Chinese community, for example, that actually early Chinese settlement should be more reflected in the curriculum. I think they've got a really good point. We also want to make sure, though, that the curriculum doesn't get so prescriptive that you lose that opportunity, you know, for learning in the context. So if you're in the Waikato, there's aspects of our treaty history that are relevant to that area, that are really going to engage kids because it's relevant to them and because they can see their own history reflected there. So you want to allow the history curriculum to be flexible enough to build in those local stories. - Other core subjects, Science, English, Maths, achievement levels have been described by the Royal Society as a national tragedy. Are we failing where it counts? - What we've seen since about 2000, since we started participating in the big international studies like PISA and so on, is that we have been on a downward trajectory. - Sinking ship. - Well, no, there's two things to factor in there. Some other countries are getting better and that's not a bad thing, but New Zealand's mean scores, so those are just our results taken on their own, have been trending downwards, not not as big as the trend downwards in terms of our ranking, but that trend in terms of ranking is often because other countries are coming up and we should celebrate that fact. But we have been trending down. What we also know from the international literature, though, is that countries that say, right, we're just going to focus on the basics, literacy and numeracy, they're often the countries whose whose numbers slide the fastest. You've got to have kids engaged in a rich curriculum. The exact topic that we've just been talking about, about making sure that schools are inclusive, that kids all feel welcomed, that there isn't inherent bias in what we're doing. That's actually a really important part of lifting our achievement. - Probably also not helped by the fact that some kids are learning in mouldy, rotten classrooms. Can you promise that by the time you wrap this term, every single child in this country will be in a learning environment that is healthy and safe? - No, I can't, because we've got a long legacy of poor building maintenance to address there. We're putting a lot of money into it. We put even more money in in this year's budget to bring forward some of those maintenance projects. But there's a lot of it to be done. One of the big constraints, of course, is getting the workers to do it. We're in a very heated building and construction industry at the moment where we're having to often wait quite a long time, even after we've allocated money, we're having to wait a long time to find the workers to do that work. - That's also not helped I suppose by truancy if kids aren't at school. Do we have a truancy crisis? First of all ` have you ever wagged school? - I did. Yeah, I'm afraid to say I did, particularly at secondary school. I got my car driver's licence and that gave me an ability to not be there sometimes. - Don't make it sound too good. Do we have a truancy crisis in New Zealand? - I think we do have a growing problem of kids not going to school. - What are you doing about it? - We know that there is absolutely a link between being in school, attending regularly and achievement. We've got to do better here. Now, this isn't something that government alone can solve. Everyone's got to play a role here. You know, parents need to be making sure their kids are going to school. Communities need to be making sure kids are going to school. We cannot, you know, microchip every child to make sure that they're in the right place where they need to be. Everyone's got a role to play here. - I think just finally, with all of this going on and teachers facing a kind of once in a generation overhaul of the education system as well, off the back of COVID-19 last year and everything they had to do there, and then this pay freeze shemozzle, can you commit to a significant pay rise for teachers? - Look, teachers are still getting the significant pay rise they got last time, so their last 3% instalment still comes into force this year. They're back and bargaining next year. We'll bargain in good faith. - And you think that they should get a significant pay rise in that next bargaining round? - Look, we'll be bargaining in good faith` - To at least cover rising living costs. - Well, it's a bit more complex than that. What I've also said, you know, if you look at the pay guidance, we're saying that those on the lower end of the salary scale should get, you know, a disproportionate share. If you look at the teaching salary scale, it's quite modest at the lower end for beginning teachers. If the teaching community come sit around the bargaining table and say, let's do something about that, then they'll have a receptive audience from the government. - Okay, so no commitment to a significant pay rise for teachers, so we will give them your email address, or parents your email address when teachers go on strike again. Thank you very much for your time, Minister Chris Hipkins. - Thank you. - Kia ora. If you've got news for us, get in touch. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Our Twitter panel this week is Bevan Chuang and Emmaline Pickering-Martin and they're using the hashtag #NationNZ, or email us as at nation@tv3.co.nz. Still to come ` analysis of the week's political news with our panel, but first, whistle-blower Tarryn Flintoft about her experience with online exploitation and why our laws need an overhaul. Snapchats, screenshots, cybersex, and exploitation. At the centre of this developing story is whistle-blower Tarryn Flintoft. She alleges former National candidate Jake Bezzant used her private images to imitate her and have cybersex with men. I spoke to Tarryn and asked her to tell me what happened. And a warning ` this interview may be upsetting for some viewers. - I had been in a long-distance relationship with him. And when he was in America and I was in New Zealand, sometimes we engaged intimately over Snapchat, and he had used the images that I had sent him, had screen-recorded them, and then started impersonating me online and would engage intimately with other men online as me. And I found out through somebody telling me about it. And then it just continued to happen throughout the relationship. - I can't even fathom how that would feel to be exploited like that and be exploited like that by somebody that you love as well that you love as well,... - Yeah. - ...that you loved. How was it` What did you feel when you first realised that this was happening? - I was in shock. I don't actually think I really believed it. I thought that it couldn't have been him. It must have been somebody else. And so I had put a question up on my Facebook asking if anyone had received any messages. And when I was contacted, explaining what the content that was getting sent, I knew immediately it was him because he was the only person that had it. And I still think there was a part of me that just wished somehow it had just leaked somewhere and someone else was using it. But when he admitted that it was him, I was just in complete shock. Like, I couldn't believe it. I thought, as my partner... was the last person I expected would want anybody else to see such content of me. So I think I was just in disbelief. - And then to realise that it was still happening all those years later. - Yeah. - Had you` How did you cope with that? - Not well. I think I was really empathetic to him in this situation as well. I felt like for somebody to be doing this, they must have their own troubles and pain, and I really was trying to help through that. But at the same time, it was just at the complete cost to myself. And I think it really took me such a long time to recognise that, that I was just completely neglecting my own problems, or why I would be there and focusing on his, and that was a really hard lesson to learn. But I learned it. - And I mean, you're clearly a very empathetic... - Yeah. - ...and brave young woman. Have other women come forward and spoken to you as well since you've told the story? - Yeah, I've had so` I actually have been blown away with the amount of people that have contacted me, people regarding him, but also just regarding their own situations, men and women, and just, kind of, sharing their own stories that they haven't come forward or told anyone, because they feel embarrassed or shameful about it, and that makes me really sad. I think that was the one thing that I really wanted to achieve by doing this, was not only kind of shedding light on the law aspects of it, but also I don't think it's anything to feel ashamed about. I don't think it's my embarrassment. I don't think it's any victim's embarrassment. And it really breaks my heart when people are afraid of standing up for themselves just because they feel embarrassed or ashamed, yeah. - Well, I think you're helping a lot of women move past that as well. Do you have any idea as to the extent of this, how many women he did this to? - I can't know for sure. But I know there are a lot of people in Cambridge. I know when we were overseas, there were countless accounts as well, so... honestly, probably hundreds. I genuinely don't know. I know it's been going on for a really long time. I think that... I can't say for sure, but I do think that the behaviour is distressing to him and quite compulsive, and I think that because of that, I don't want to take blame away, but I feel like it's almost out of his control. And that, I think, is what makes me really sad as well. But I think that's why there is such a large amount of people that have been involved in this. - Because you said in your podcast, didn't you, that he gave you a significant excuse,... - Reasoning. - A reason. - Yeah. - What was his rationale? - I don't feel comfortable elaborating. I just don't think it's my place to share. I think if he wants to share it, that's completely OK. But it was enough of a reasoning for me to feel really empathetic and understanding of his situation. I understand it doesn't make the behaviour OK, but I felt that I could understand perhaps where it was stemming from and how he was coping with his own distress and pain, which made me just... I just cared so much about him, and I just really wanted to help. Yeah. - What about some of the men as well? Because there were men who were being exploited here as well, who were having cybersex thinking it was with you and with other women. What have they been telling you about how it affected them? - I had one man in particular that was targeted in Auckland, during the campaign period, and he had contacted me and he said he really struggled to see his face on a billboard when he knew that he had done this to him. I knew other men that felt just violated as well. I think probably much the same as how I felt because they still had been exposed intimately. And I` It's such a difficult feeling to explain, but it just kind of makes you feel gross, like... Yeah, so I definitely know that the men felt much the same as I did, and some of them expressed that. I also think some felt embarrassed and didn't want to talk about it, or there are instances where I was aware there were men that had engaged or targeted but wouldn't talk to me about it because I think that they did feel embarrassed about it. - And when the police couldn't prosecute ` and we'll talk a little bit more shortly about the holes in the law, because there are clearly gaps in the law here. But when the police said that they couldn't prosecute, Jake messaged you saying you went to the police with no result. - Yeah. So he didn't actually messaged me that right after it happened. I think on the podcast, I was just trying to give context that he was aware that I had gone, and it had not gotten anywhere. I had contacted him about something else to do with my dad, and he had responded and just said to leave him alone, and I'd already gone to the police with no result. And I think that really upset me because I just constantly felt like I was getting let down or invalidated in my feelings. And that made me feel like maybe I was overreacting, which is ridiculous, but it did. So it wasn't nice to have that used against me. - And I want to get your reaction as well to what he's told Newshub. He's said that there are two sides of the story, and that it needs to be seen in the context of a relationship break-up. - Yeah. - How does that make you feel? - To be honest, that makes me just feel like he's gaslighting me again. I think even` We broke up a year ago, and it dragged out for a while still afterward that we were in contact, but we weren't in a relationship. But if this were just the context of a relationship break up and I was just trying to be vindictive, I never would have tried to get him help, I never would have tried to keep it behind closed doors, I wouldn't have gone to the police. And in this instance as well, I didn't go to the media. I put it on my own platform where I could express how I felt in my own words, and it's made its way here. But I think if it was the context of a relationship break-up, and I was just trying to hurt him or bring him down, I would have missed all those other things and I would have gone straight to the media. Even when the police couldn't do anything about it, I didn't go and then upload something publicly. I moved on with my life for the last nine months until it started happening again. And I just felt... I'm not going to let him victimise me. I felt so weak for so long, and it's taken me so long to feel like I'm starting to build up courage and strength within myself again, to just be thrown back into it again and feel like there was nothing I can do. Actually, I have a voice and I can do something about it. And even if I can just publicly say it's not me, I didn't need it to go any further than that. I just needed people to know that this is not me, and it's not OK. So I think that statement is actually just completely irrelevant. - And the fact that the police investigated, and you said in your podcast they were disappointed that they couldn't take it forward. They've spoken to his ex-girlfriends as well. - Yeah. - Where are the gaps in the law? Why couldn't they prosecute? - They had to prove that he was intending to hurt me, which through all of this, he definitely knew he was hurting me, but I don't think that was the intention there. So that's where the digital communications one fell short. In regard to fraud or anything like that, there was no monetary gain. I think there's just there's no law that really has kept up with it. Technology has evolved beyond, or faster, than the law has, and continues to do so. And there just was not legislation there to support me, yeah. - I think Parliament now is recognising that as well, And, I think, thanks in large part to you telling your story, too. - Yeah. - So hopefully we see some change. - Yeah. That makes me so happy. - Thank you very much for your time. - Thank you. - We invited Jake Bezzant on to the show today, or to send us a statement in response to our interview with Tarryn. He didn't respond to multiple requests. And with me now is MP Louisa Wall. She has a member's bill currently before select committee that will see the Harmful Digital Communications Act strengthened, making it an offence to post intimate images or recordings without permission. - Tena koe Louisa. Thank you for joining us. - Tena koe Tova. And can I just do a mihi to Tarryn and thank her for her strength and the clarity of their voice in this conversation? - Thank you. I'm sure she'd appreciate that from you especially. Can you just tell us why your changes, why these changes to the law are necessary, and what difference it would make? - The changes are necessary because Netsafe have been highlighting since January 2019 that we have a problem with image-based sexual abuse. People are sharing other people's images without their consent. And as we've now heard from Tarryn, it does harm people. Unfortunately in some jurisdictions, the extent of that harm has lead to quite severe mental health issues, depression, and suicide in some jurisdictions. And so the thresholds of intending to harm, and actual harm, are way too high. And so essentially the bill makes it an offence if you don't have that person's consent every time to share an image that they may have shared with you. - And talk to me a bit more about that, because we heard first-hand from Tarryn there about the effect that it had on her. But how pervasive is this, and what kind of impact is it having on the victims of this kind of sexual exploitation? - From Netsafe's research, up to 3% of adult New Zealanders are having the images shared without their consent. There, obviously, has been increases in prosecutions. But based on Taryn's story, the police actually need the tools to be able to prosecute people who are committing these types of sex crimes. The impacts that I've heard from Women's Refuge and through their research ` they were looking at the direct result of family violence on suicide, for example ` and image-based sexual abuse came up, because it is a form of control, it is a form of coercion in a way, as we've seen with Tarryn, to make people feel so embarrassed and humiliated that often they stay home, they can't leave their own homes. - And this is a guy who wanted to come into the Parliament, the place where people are supposed to make a difference for the greater good of New Zealand. We also saw an MP last year, Andrew Falloon, sending unsolicited, intimate images to people. Does that speak to how pervasive the problem is, or does it speak to a 'rotten at its core' culture at the Parliament? - No, I think it's more to the culture, and it is a generational issue. There's some wonderful research happening at Auckland University through Associate Professor Claire Meehan. It's called The Nudie Project, and she interviewed 13- to 16-year-old young people. They're being coerced every day into sharing images of themselves. And so we have to eradicate that type of behaviour because unfortunately, on a digital platform, if you share those images, they could be in the public domain for the rest of the young person's life. And I think we are now realising the consequences of obviously not having a fit-for-purpose piece of legislation, but also clear highlighted that we should look at digital ethics education, so that we give our kids the tools. I mean, I do not want young people criminalised by, obviously, a meaningless bill. I want people like Jake Bezzant to pay the price for the way he's, obviously, treated a former partner. - And you have unilateral support for this and it is going to pass. But what about people like Tarryn? Is there going to be any retrospective means to prosecute? - We can't do retrospective law. What we can do is be very clear about why such initiatives are needed, such amendments to pieces of legislation. So Tarryn and victims like her, actually incredibly strong women like her who have shared their stories, especially through the select committee process but also now in the public domain, their voices matter, and they have contributed to initially me bringing this piece of legislation to the House. I want to acknowledge my previous colleague Clare Curran, who was working in this space. And I also did consult with Judge David Harvey, who is a District Court Judge, is very au fait with this type of criminal offence. And that's why at the heart of it, it has to be about consent. And if you do not have that person's conceit, then actually you're committing a crime, and it will be punished. - Kia ora Louisa. Louisa Wall there, changing the law for the better. Up next ` analysis from our political panel, Professor Jennifer Curtin, Aliya Danzeisen and Liam Hehir. Plus ` a quarter of New Zealand children are spending more than six hours a day on screens, and that's just at home. Anna Bracewell-Worrall asks how much is too much? lawyer Liam Hehir, teacher and Muslim leader Aliya Danzeisen, and Auckland University Politics Professor Jennifer Curtin. Kia ora koutou. Thank you very much for joining me. Let's start on Jake Bezzant, the need to change our laws. First of all, Liam, does the National Party need to change its screening process, because this was going on, allegedly, while the campaign was underway? - Yeah, I mean, it's crucial, right? And so I think, first of all, I'd just say that interview you did with Tarryn, I think, what a voice of moral clarity from her on that. But we shouldn't rely on people like Tarryn to have to come forward and to expose themselves and to be brave on TV. I mean, the reality is that, look, once people are in Parliament, it's a bit late to do anything about it, right. I mean, voters can't be expected to go through all the psychological history of candidates. You're the most feared woman on TV in New Zealand, but you can't be expected to vet every single candidate to that point. - You're sitting at a table with Aliya and Jennifer. - So, the role that parties have is they give that endorsement to the candidates. And so that endorsement's got to carry consequences. It's got to be carefully given. And you know, what we can see from a number of things, a number of scandals that have happened over the last few years, is that there's not enough being done in that space, and that really is incumbent on parties to do that. So there's got to be some sort of vetting, some sort of, I would say, psychological testing of candidates to make sure that they're fit for office. That really is the party's role as a gatekeeper. - And clearly everyone's supporting Louisa Wall's amendment. The law needs to change. It needs to be firmed up. This is not a new problem, though. How do we keep up with evolving technology? How does the law keep up with it? - Well, the law has to recognise that there are consequences for action, not just intention. You know, there are consequences that result from people acting, and they need to be open to changing legislation that way across the digital space. It's not just with sexual harm aspects; it's across digital range. And so changing the law to put a reckless standard into it, rather than an intentionally` rather than serious emotional harm causing that harm as well are important areas of legislation that need to change. - You don't just have to be reckless. I think reasonable, foreseeable. - Yeah, I would agree with that as well. Yeah. - Yeah, yeah. - And what about the point that Louisa was making there about cultural issues at Parliament? Because this is two egregious examples of allegations against a male MP who is sitting and a man who wanted to be an MP. What is it about the Parliament that's attracting people like this? - Well, I wouldn't say that everybody who's in Parliament is culturally... - Oh God, no, no, no. - So we just need to take a step back. There are some` The Francis report revealed that the culture of Parliament really needs fixing. We know Parliamentary Services is working on a range of those recommendations, including codes of conduct and trying to work with resourcing for HR-equivalent type arrangements. But really what we see from the Tarryn story is that sometimes it actually takes a woman to speak out to shame the party into doing what it should already be doing, not just this party but all political parties. And if we think about the Australian context here, Brittany Higgins did exactly the same thing, not relating to cyber images, but there has been some cyber image-sharing as a result of that between non-consenting men in the Australian parliament. But it was Brittany Higgins' story, public story, that really galvanised the changes that the Liberal Party is now making, even though Liberal Party women in Parliament had been standing up for several years, complaining about the way their party operates. - Yeah. It's sad it comes to that. - Can I just add to that? I mean, I think it would be a mistake, I think, to look at politics as separate from everything else, because the last four or five years, we've seen so many sectors ` the law for one, entertainment industry, dare I say it, the media in America, and who knows where else? - Well, the common denominator there is there's an element of power, right? - That's right. - So is that attracting...? - That's right. And there's one common element. The other common element is too much reliance on brave women eventually standing up. - Mm. - And that's where all companies and everybody across the board, every organisation needs to be proactive in this space and realising people do this, this is human nature and we need to be proactive on all spheres, looking at what's trending and we need to look into it ourselves. - Let's talk about education as well. There is a lot to talk about after the show. But do you think` I mean, that Conor Whitten story there; Maori immersion is working for kids. Jennifer, is that a no-brainer to roll it out nationally? - Certainly it needs more resource. And asking Maori communities and Maori teachers to provide the correct context for everybody would be too much straight away, and I think we can't necessarily separate out te reo from tikanga. So the two do go hand-in-hand. And I think there are initiatives, that Aliya knows about more than I, that are in place and that have been co-designed with Maori communities and Maori experts about ways to take te reo and tikanga and understandings of our history of colonisation into the classroom, in ways that support Maori students inside English-speaking classrooms, which is, you know, so we're working in a dual, connected way to support Maori students. - And Aliya, you're a teacher. What about this concept of making white privilege, teaching white privilege as part of the curriculum? - Well, you're` They aren't teaching white privilege. They're acknowledging` - Shouldn't they` - No, no, no. Wait. They are acknowledging that there has been a colonisation, and they're decolonising an educational system that has not worked for a significant amount of people in the nation. That's the first thing. - Do we just need to call it what it is? - Te Hurihanganui is a very good effort. And it's a collective where it's bringing in community, it's bringing in teachers, it's bringing in the students to solve together what the issues are in each particular community, so it's a very good programme. It's at its inception, and we've got to let it thrive. And I'm just recently was connected with that, and I'm excited about it, as a result. The other part of it is that there are organisations, for example, TupuOra, that can bring up people, teachers up to speed. I'm in the system where they actually get leave days to learn to te reo. So there are things in place that we can start accessing to bring it up to where it should be, so everybody in this nation can thrive. - And why not just call it for what it is? Why not just call it white privilege? Do you think the Minister's being to shy? - No, I actually think this Chris Hipkins is pretty level-headed in that regard. I mean, look, it's not about winning a Twitter argument, right? It's about changing hearts and minds. And you don't do that by accusing people out of the gate; you've actually got to lead people to the conclusion themselves to an extent. So, I mean, I hate to say it as a National Party supporter, but I think Hipkins handles it pretty well in that regard. - Thank you very much. Tena koutou for your time this morning. Thank you for your reflections. We'll come back to you on the Sunday panel shortly. Up next ` a special report on how much screen time is too much screen time. Plus ` Paul Goldsmith gets five minutes to convince you he'd make a better Education Minister than Chris Hipkins. A quarter of New Zealand children are spending more than six hours a day on screens for fun, and then this school. It adds up to some of the heaviest internet use in the world. How much is too much? Anna Bracewell-Worrall investigates. - The centre of the universe for 3-year-old Albert and 5-year-old William looks a bit like this ` - Lego. - Lego also. - They're the children of Taino and Astrid Bendz, who are trying to make screen use purposeful and educational for their kids. - We both have an aversion to the sort of mindless scrolling or looking at the TV just for the sake of killing time. There's a drawer there where the phones live. - We still don't know what the effects of screen time will be on the next generation. In Silicon Valley, some tech designers like Tristan Harris, formerly of Google, have sounded warnings. - There's a hidden goal driving the direction of all of the technology we make, and that goal is the race for our attention. - Over the past eight years, New Zealand's international test scores have been slipping in reading, science and maths ` the most significant slip in 2009 to 2012. - That's exactly the time when our use of digital tools and the internet began to take off. - New Zealand 15 year olds have some of the highest rates of internet use in the OECD, behind only Denmark, Sweden and Chile. They spend 42 hours a week online, more than double what they spent in 2012. And while grades have been dropping, something else has been happening too ` students have been reading less for enjoyment. Could social media be replacing reading for fun? - Whether that is indeed an interference effect by the highly attractive use of social media and digital tools at home directly is as yet unclear, but it's certainly a possibility. - 15 year old New Zealanders are spending, on average, two hours, 43 minutes on the internet outside of school a day, but a quarter are spending more than six hours a day on screens, outside school, for recreation. That's the point at which you see depression and anxiety increasing. - That's a problematic amount of time to be spending on the screen. - The more time young people spend online, the more likely they'll see something they shouldn't have, and it's time that could otherwise be spent reading, outdoors or with friends. - Parents need to know that they are in charge. Parents need encouragement to know that they can tell their children, 'You've done enough and you should unplug now and go and run around and do something different.' - We can't be sure what effect screen time is having, but McNaughton's optimistic it can be balanced out. - It can be mitigated by good teaching in classrooms. - New Zealand is one of the few countries where increased use of screens in school is actually associated with better learning outcomes. - And so, unlike some other countries, in a way, we've adapted quite well to the online environment and designed appropriate curriculum materials. - But not all device use in schools is good or helpful. Some schools aren't using technology well. - Those schools who have a lot of access to curriculum resources through the digital environments can capitalise on that and provide complex, challenging, well-designed material, and other schools are less able to do it, and it's, as I say, the rich get richer. - This game was created by 12-year-old Austin at Pt England School. It took two months of coding to make it. Take a look at this coding. That takes logic. That takes problem solving. But the main skill he told me it took was his determination to get it done. The kids at Pt England School certainly don't want their parents to be concerned about what they're doing at school. What you want them to understand? - That we do have a range of different activities throughout the day, and it's not just on our device. So, yeah. I want them to worry about that. - Teacher Andra Telea is a parent of four children, the oldest in their 20s, the youngest just 3. - What are you doing right now on your screen? What about Samoa? (LAUGHS) - She says, at home, it's important to know what your child is up to on their device... - You almost feel like, 'I can't look at it,' as if it's their diary, but it's not their diary. It's their tool for school, so treat it in that light. Just like you would rip open a exercise book to see what they're up to, you have every right to do that with that they're doing online as well. - ...and step in and set limits. - The caregivers in the house need to know, actually, you're really tired tonight, and it's time to go to sleep, and I'm going to take that off you. - The Ministry of Health recommends less than one to two hours of non-school screen use a day for 5s and over, one hour max for 2- to 4-year-olds, and none for under-2s. But while too much screen time is bad for young people, no screen time for teens is a negative too. It can socially isolate them. - It is important that you have access to a community. - The kids at Pt England get that screen are both a helpful tool and a temptation. - Because it's good to socialise and be productive, not just sit there on a screen daily, because it will damage your eyes as well. - While they come with the challenge of setting and enforcing screen limits, at Pt England the principal sees screens as an opportunity for his kids. - I want them to be the people who can be controlling the movement of stock, not just unloading a conveyor belt, but writing the code that tells the box where to go to be delivered to somebody. I want them to be in charge. I want them to be employed. I want them to have self-efficacy and to be empowered as citizens of Aotearoa. - Stay with us. We're back after the break. In the hot seat this week ` he's gone from fiscal holes to educational goals. It's Paul Goldsmith's chance to convince you he'd make a better Education Minister than Chris Hipkins. - Starting point is to get the kids to school. At the moment, it's unbelievable. Only about 60% of children across the country are attending regularly. That has to be the absolute focus. OK, but what specific action would you take to address that? - Starting point is to say, 'Well, there are some schools that do really well.' I was out at Manurewa Intermediate, for example, one of the lowest deciles in the country. And they've got a big flashing sign out the front '#NoExcuses, get the kids to school', so it's about sending a very clear message. - You've clashed with the Government frequently this week, alleging that they're importing American culture wars into our classroom. - Yep, sure is. - Could you just specifically, tell me what you mean by that. - We've had lots of talk about white privilege being taught at schools. The Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, she was very clear. 'No, we're not doing that. It's not on our agenda. 'We're not teaching it. It's not us.' But then, you know, we look at the details, and it is, actually. It's a fundamental part of a programme led by Mr Davis, Te Hurihanganui. And it's what the teachers are being taught at all their programmes. - Does white privilege exist in your eyes? - Look, there's privilege across New Zealand. The problem with it is there's such a` You know, it's a stereotype. There are certainly European New Zealanders of European origin who are privileged, and there are New Zealanders of European origin who are not privileged, who are struggling. - So white privilege doesn't exist in the way that is understood? - No, it's just life is more complex. Some people do well, some people don't. Some people are privileged, some people aren't. And rather than focusing on the colour of your skin, focus on things that will really make a difference. - But the colour of your skin does make a difference to a lot of New Zealanders. - Yeah, but if you focus on the things that actually make a difference in the education context, get them to school, make sure that at school they're teaching literacy and maths, and they are well prepared to succeed in the 21st century in a global universe, then that's more important. - You've also critiqued the government's draft history curriculum. - Yeah. - Can you just give me one of your big ideas you would include instead? - Well, yeah. I mean, New Zealand went from a subsistence economy around 1840 to one of the highest living standards in the world by 1900 ` amazing transformation. How we grew our economy and became a prosperous society, one of the most prosperous societies in the world ` that's a great story. Interesting story. - That prosperity was very unequal, though, wasn't it? - As it is everywhere in the world. And a big part of our story has been how we've tried to ameliorate that through the development of the welfare state ` wonderful story. Big part of our story. - Just to stay on history for one moment. You wrote in an opinion piece in 2019 that on balance, colonisation was a good thing, the good outweighed the bad. I'm just wondering, is that true for Maori? - Everybody will have their own opinion. - What's your opinion? - The reality is that New Zealand was isolated from the rest of the world for centuries, and at some point it had to reconnect with the rest of the world. And that happened in the 19th century. It was always going to be very traumatic experience. With it came all sorts of wonderful things, such as literacy, such as the freedoms and democracy that have come through. So yep, there's good and bad. - On balance, colonisation was a good thing for Maori. - I think on balance it has been, yes. - How many secondary and primary teachers do we have total in New Zealand right now? - Can't remember off the my` There's tens of thousands. Lots. - I mean, it's probably something that you should know as education spokesperson. - Well, look, I mean, you can swat up on those sorts of things. What matters fundamentally, again, come back to those simple points ` are we getting the kids to school, or are we not? And are we actually measuring` - Well, they both say we don't have enough teachers, so it's probably a good fact to know. - Well,... - 71,000 for the record. - Well, good on you. Well done. - Next, the election. Are you going to take back the finance role? - Well, look, politics is an opportunity. I'm very happy to be focused on education. Actually` - It's not really the portfolio you wanted, though, is it? - Well, look, you know, if you look at the short term issues that we're facing as a country, number one, housing ` complete failure on that, two, the very slow vaccine rollout, three, the absence of any growth plan coming from Grant Robertson on this economy. But if you take the longer term for New Zealand, I think education is right up there as one of the critical areas. - What personal lesson did you take from National's loss last election? - Well, that we need to work harder. And do better. And, you know, politics is brutal. It's high accountability. If you come out there and you get thrashed, you've got to say, 'Well, heck. You know, we didn't get a few things right.' - What was your biggest mistake? - Internal division. They looked at us and they saw us arguing, changing leaders all the time. And they thought, 'Well, you know, that's not a crowd that we can trust the country 'and the economy, too.' And so, you know, discipline and demonstrating that we know how to manage ourselves is the important place to start. - Does Judith Collins have your full support as leader? - Yeah, yeah. I always support the leader. - You always support the leader. Not necessarily... - Yeah! No, I support Judith. She's doing a great job, she's working hard, and it's important that we do well. - She is the best person to lead National to victory at the next election? - I walk around my neighbourhood around here, and people... They supported that government last year, the Labour government. So, they can announce stuff, but they can't deliver it, and they're looking at us, and they want us to do well. That's our challenge and our job, and that's what I'm focused on. - We're back with out panel ` Professor Jennifer Curtin, Aliya Danzeisen and Liam Hehir. Thank you very much again for joining us. Let's talk about National MP Nick Smith resigning this week after 30 years in the parliament. Was it time for him to go, Aliya? - It's important to know you're past due date, (CHUCKLES) and I think that his electorate had told him it was time to go. And it's hard for politicians to do that when you've been there so long, but it was definitely time and people had told him that, and now he's recognising it. - And there are allegations that Judith Collins has, perhaps, orchestrated this whole thing, smoking him out. What do you make of those? Could that be true? - Well, I mean, it's all really murky. It's all rumours. We've all heard different things. It would be really Machiavellian to assume that Collins could conjure this up out of thin air, of course, and I doubt that's the case. We all know that Nick Smith's a really passionate guy, and that that passion has often manifested itself in inappropriate ways and losing his temper at various points, you know. He doesn't always behave that well in parliament. It's not a huge stretch to imagine he might have problems with staff. And, you know, in this day and age, you don't treat staff badly, you can't yell at staff and things like that. So, I can't comment on whether there's any truth to it or anything like that, but I wouldn't be surprised. - And what is this` This kind of bad behaviour in and around the parliament, Jennifer, what is it doing to voter behaviour, voter patterns? - Well, I think there's two things. I think we shouldn't conflate the` Even though the happened in the same week ` Nick Smith and Jake Bezzant are not the same things. But that said, what it does give off a vibe that politics and parliament is not necessarily a fun place to work, or it's something that women, as candidates, if we want to diversify culturally and on gender and background and so on, it's not giving off a vibe that this is a place that you might want to go and work. So it might be more difficult, over time, for parties to recruit diverse array of candidates. That said, with the Jake Bezzant thing, I think you're going to find, and I'm already hearing out in communities, that women voters just find this gross, and we heard Louisa Wall use that term. And National needs to use its time in opposition, and that's the time when you can fix things, right? To sort this out because they don't want to lose any more of the women's vote to Labour, because we know they lost some of it in 2017, and we haven't seen the New Zealand election study data yet, but soon we will, and when we do, we'd expect to see that gender gap widen, and they'll want to close that. - Again, not to kind of conflate the various things that have gone on here, but with the National Party last year as well, the Hamish Walker debacle, the Andrew Falloon scandal and` The National Party ` you're a National Party guy ` your party just cannot catch a break. - No, I mean, look, what I really believe, personally, is it would be naive to expect that the National Party isn't subject to the same risk and the cultural contamination that occurs throughout society. And these things coming up now aren't necessarily new things. They're just new that we hear about them, right? And so, you know, I think there's a real changing of times, and that's a really positive thing, you know. Things that used to be acceptable aren't any more. And, you know, when you hear about general bad behaviour in politics, you've got to remember that happens in finance, it happens in law, it happens in academia, it happens in the media, and the fact that we're hearing about it points to the fact that, actually, times are changing. Nick Smith, he's the last of that Brat Pack, right? Do you remember, when they came in, they were the young guys in their 30s. He's the last one standing ` Bill English is gone, Roger Sowry is gone, Tony Ryall is gone. It's` There's a changing of the guard. - But leaders have to set the terms. These are unacceptable behaviours. If you're part of it, you're out of here. And in that line, as soon as it happens, move ` in whatever organisation. And if they see it and there's evidence of it, they go. - Is there hope for the National Party come 2023? Can they pull their proverbial together and win at the next election? - Oh, absolutely. And there's a lot of research out there that talks about what processes can be put in place to recruit good candidates. This is not a new phenomenon. People have been writing about the secret garden of political recruitment for a long time, and as a result, we've seen research out of the UK and out of Australia. What you need to think about ` and it's not all psychometric testing because that has a gender bias built into it as well ` but it's about thinking about the skills that are required, either as a list MP and an electorate MP, recognising that there are different skills for both and that they have multiple masters. - And even if you have a great selection process and you have great candidates, you've got a great list. If you're party in the parliament is falling to pieces, you're not going to get those guy in, are you? - No, but one of the` But the trouble is, is that one they're MPs, it's too late, right? So, political parties have a unique problem that other organisations don't have, which is that members of parliament have a democratic mandate to be there. They're not employees of anybody. You know, they're not subject to oversight. So the only real drafting gate or the only place to catch it is at the party endorsement and selection level. So I think that's really where the focus has got to be. You can't clean it out unless it's cleaned out at the party level. - And Aliya, can end with you? What did you make of Paul Goldsmith's comments there that colonisation, on balance, was a good thing for Maori? - Well, I found it really shocking to hear, 'Oh, we went from subsistence farming up until being one of the top in the OECD up to 1900.' We know exactly what happened, which was land grabs and an attempt to destroy the tangata whenua, and` and` and to say that that's, you know, a good thing is shocking, to be honest. - Well, you've got to remember, though, that Goldsmith, he's one of the National Party's Maori caucus members, one of the few, so an interesting perspective there. - Yeah. (CHUCKLES) - Low-hanging fruit, Liam. Thank you very much all for joining us this morning ` Liam Hehir, Aliya Danzeisen and Jennifer Curtin. Kia ora koutou. And that's all from us for now. I hope you enjoyed the programme. Hei kona mai. See you again next weekend. Captions by Jordan Waetford, Stephanie Phan and Sophie Pearce. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021