- Today on Newshub Nation ` a new transport minister and a big ute-shaped can of worms. Michael Wood joins us live. - Will Winston stage a comeback? Anna Bracewell-Worrall live from the New Zealand First party AGM. - And could she be our first Maori prime minister? Up-and-coming Arena Williams shares her backstory. Tena tatou katoa. I'm Simon Shepherd. - And I'm Tova O'Brien. Welcome to Newshub Nation. Ko nga pitopito korero i te whare paremata ` in political news this week. The Prime Minister's received her first Pfizer vaccine amidst criticism the rollout's happening too slowly. New Zealanders over 60 will be able to get their vaccine after the end of July, with under-35s waiting the longest. - Justice Minister Kris Faafoi has announced a review of New Zealand's 66-year-old adoption laws, including how adoption works in surrogacy situations, as we featured earlier this year. Yeah, how crazy is it that` well, in your view, that you have to adopt your own biological child, Tim? - Yeah, just kind of a kick in the pants, really. - The first round of consultation runs until the 31st of August. - And New Zealand and the UK committed overnight to reaching a free trade agreement, in principle, this August. Trade Minister Damien O'Connor made the joint announcement with UK Trade Secretary Liz Truss. He's in London and says negotiations on the deal will now accelerate. - Well, he spent the last eight months in political Siberia. - But this weekend, Winston Peters will make his first speech since New Zealand First failed to be re-elected to parliament. The party's regrouping after some serious soul-searching. - So, much like election night, reporter Anna Bracewell-Worrall is locked out of a New Zealand First event ` this time, its AGM in Auckland. Kia ora, Anna. Has there been any sign of Winston Peters? - There has, actually. He's just arrived here at the venue in East Auckland. I attempted an interview of sorts with Winston Peters, but it went down in pretty typical Winston Peters fashion. Any message for your supporters? - Well, not for you guys, no. (CHUCKLES) 'Scuse me. 'Scuse me. - Are you going to` Are you going to stick around as leader of New Zealand First? - Oh, look, you knew you were never going to get an answer to these questions at the start of this conference. So don't indulge yourself, all right? - Have you done`? - Can I just say to you ` I'm not having an interview with you at the start of this conference until I've spoken to the members of this party. Now, can you understand that? You don't` You don't actually have to be the people that matter at the moment. Or will ever matter on this` - Have you done some ref`? - I don't want to be arguing with you about anything. I'm just going to start off with the party members. - Have you reflected on what went wrong for New Zealand First in the election? - Listen, I know there's a great idea that you have and your editor has, but he's wrong. - Well, typical Winston there, Anna. But the obvious question is ` is he staging a comeback? - There is a feeling among former MPs and former staffers that Winston Peters is planning on sticking around and staying as leader of New Zealand First, but the man is painfully, notoriously private, so we'll only really know when he decides to make his decision public. But he does have precedent when it comes to making a comeback. - Mm. - He did that in 2011 after failing to return to parliament in 2008. The crucial difference between now and then is, of course, time. It's been an entire decade. Winston Peters is now 76 years old. But he need only glance across the Pacific Ocean at Joe Biden, leader of the United States at the age of 78, for a little bit of inspiration. There's also a bit of talk, though, that any decision about the leadership and whether Winston Peters hangs on to that leadership of New Zealand First may be a decision for a later date, for some` a decision to be made closer to that 2023 election. There could be some political advantage to that ` you could build some momentum leading up to that election, and there'd be more to attack the government over. - All right. Anna Bracewell-Worrall at the New Zealand first AGM, thank you very much for your time. - And the New Zealand First handbrake proudly blocked the electric car incentive scheme last term. - But, like Winston Peters, feebate is back. - It's just one of a set of controversial policies that Labour's now rolling out in the transport sector. - CYCLISTS CHANT: Let us through! Let us through! They gathered in their thousands. This small line of defence stood no chance. (INDISTINCT SHOUTING) And liberate it they did. - It's people power. - The government is proposing to add a new northern pathway. - The lives of the sick are not considered as valuable as the lives of bike-riding Aucklanders. - The latest budget nearly doubles that ` an extra six billion. It's part of the reason the government canned or delayed many of those plans. - Locals have cried out for an upgrade to the highway for years, with more people moving into the area. - It's tomorrow's most important project. Well, tomorrow's arrived. It's here now. - So there is a need for us to rethink the kind of projects that we are delivering. - New and used electric and hybrid vehicles will now receive a Clean Car Discount. - And in its first full year of operation, an additional 19,000 clean vehicles. - Kiwis wanting to drive a new Hilux off the lot will soon be slapped with a $3000 fee. - Bugger. - Bugger. - A large number of those buyers of those vehicles are not using it` are not using them using them for the` you know, legitimate use. - Utes aren't a status symbol for us. They're actually what we need to do our jobs. - This is a reverse Robin Hood situation. - Joining me now is the minister behind the transport reforms and who's responsible for selling them to you, Michael Wood. Tena koe, Minister. Thank you for joining us. - Kia ora. Good morning, Tova. - How did you get here this morning? - Oh, this morning I was dropped off in one of the ministerial vehicles. Some of those are hybrid, some of them are petrol... - What was your one? - ...and as luck would have it, for me this morning, it was a petrol one. - It was a petrol one? One of the gas-guzzlers. - But the good news is that 60% of those ministerial cars now are either hybrid or electric. So we're making progress in that area. - Slow progress, though, because in 2017, you were given the option to transfer the fleet over to electric vehicles, but you guys chose not to because they couldn't go the distance. So are you kind of taking a 'do as I say, not as I do' approach to electric vehicles? - Oh, no. No, certainly not. All of the self-drive ministerial vehicles, for example ` the Prime Minister said at the beginning of this term, 'Team, I want them all to be electric,' and that's what's happened. - Yeah, but there's 20 limousines, though, isn't it? Those BMWs, those beamers, that you rocked up to` - And they are beginning to transition. So a number of those vehicles are now hybrids. Look, the thing is that we're in a transition at the moment, and we need everyone ` public sector, private sector ` to really think about how we move forward over the next 10 years and get into cleaner cars, and that's what the policies that we're announcing are about. - What about the broader government fleet? How many cars are there across all of the government departments? - There are around about 2000 vehicles which are either hybrid or electric. So we've made a good start there. And obviously, last year` - Across the entire government fleet, though... - That's right. - ...there's about 14,778, aren't there? - That's right. - Yeah. And I thought it was that only 1.29% of those cars were actually electric, which would only be 280 cars. - There are around about 2000 which are electrical hybrids, so are cleaner vehicles coming into the fleet, and obviously, we've put in place a mandate that by 2025, we want to move the broader public service to being carbon neutral. So we've started the work there. We've set the clear target, and we have ministers working on that. - Now, it` - As I say, this is about a transition for everyone. No one's saying that things are going to have to change overnight for anyone. - Mm. - But if we don't start making the changes now, it'll get harder and harder in the out years. - Yeah. - That's why we're making the calls now. - But isn't there an argument as well to lead by example? So why are you expecting the country to do this before you've got your own garage in order? 280 EVs amongst 14,778 ` (CHUCKLES) it's not even a drop in the bucket. - But, Tova, we have said that we're going to take that responsibility on board. So, we've set up work to get a carbon neutral public service by 2025. That'll be across our cars. It'll be about getting the coal boilers out of our schools and our hospitals. We've got the resources flowing through to make sure that that happens as well. We do think it's important we take a lead. That work is happening now. - It's good that 3.5 years into government, you're realising (CHUCKLES) that you should take a lead. $8600 cash back for a new EV. In Germany, Minister, people get $15,000. We could be doing more, couldn't we? We could be giving more back to incentivise people to get into electric vehicles. - Look, there are a range of schemes around the world, and we've looked really closely at them. We're quite confident that the scheme that we've set up has discounts which will make a real difference. And just in the one week since we've announced this policy, the evidence that we've seen coming through from dealers, the searches that are happening on Trade Me, is that this is really creating interest from Kiwi consumers into getting into cleaner vehicles. - Could you up that incentive, though, as we wear on? - Oh, in theory, we could up the incentive. We've designed the scheme to be fiscally neutral, so effectively, the fees fund the discounts. And so we're trying` - So you can also up the taxes. - Yeah, but we've said at the moment we don't intend to up the fees. We've set the maximum level of those, which is $4500 plus GST, and we'll keep to that. But we think this scheme will make a difference. We've said that every 12 to 24 months, we'll review where the levels are, because the fleet is likely to change... - Mm-hm. - ...and get cleaner as the policy works. So it will constantly be adjusted to make sure we get the best benefit out of it. But as I say, the evidence is clear that it is driving interest in cleaner vehicles, and many people are telling me that. - Why didn't you campaign on this? Why didn't you seek a mandate? - Oh, look, we had a very, very clear campaign around taking action on climate change and bringing into place a clean car standard. - You also had a really clear message last year when you tried to implement this policy ` you went out for consultation, there was a massive backlash, and you reneged. So why didn't you` if you have the courage of your convictions, if you believe in this policy, why didn't you take it to the people in the election campaign? - I think that everyone understands the politics of the last term, where there wasn't the political consensus to move forward with this policy. I would push back about the fact that there was actually a massive backlash. If you look at the reception to this policy, we've had the Motor Industry Association, Drive Electric, the AA ` key people in the sector ` all come out and say that they think this policy is going to make a really positive difference. - So why don't you go out and consult on it now, then, before implementing it? - Well, there was a huge amount of consultation done in terms of the design of the scheme last term. We've worked with stakeholders this term, and as I say, those stakeholders have come out and said, 'Yes, this is a good policy that'll make a positive difference 'and get Kiwis into cleaner cars.' - When the Prime Minister says that some utes aren't being used for legitimate use, what does she mean by that? What is 'legit use' of a ute? - Oh, look, Tova, I think, like me, you're sometimes out there on the streets of Auckland and you know that on many of our streets around this city, we have massive four-wheel drive utes that aren't necessarily needed for that purpose. About a third of the heavy utes that are sold into New Zealand ` the heavy-emitting utes ` are sold into the Auckland market. About .5 of them are sold into places like the West Coast. So I think that's what she was referring to. Ultimately, the thing with this policy is that no one's going to take` - So if you're on the West Coast, you can have a ute, but if you're an Auckland, you're not allowed. - Well, that's` see, that's one of the things we just need to be clear about. No one is saying that no one can buy a ute. No one is going to take away anyone's ute. No one is going to tax anyone's existing ute. But we are going to send a message that we need to clean up our fleet and provide incentives for people to get into cleaner vehicles. That will apply with petrol utes as well. So, there are better, less-emitting utes that are on the market at the moment, and this policy will help incentivise people to steer towards those instead of the most heavily emitting utes. - Do you agree with the Prime Minister's partner that, among other things, happiness is a ute? - (LAUGHS) Look, that's not particularly my view of the world. I'm` I particularly enjoy getting around on the bus. That's my happy place, actually, when I'm travelling. - Why`? - I put the headphones in, do a bit of work. But, you know, different strokes for different folks. And again, no one is saying you can't have any particular kind of vehicle, but if we don't start taking action to clean up the fleet, we will become the dumping ground for the world's dirtiest vehicles. - Mm. - All around the world, countries are moving in this direction. We don't want to be left behind. We want Kiwis to have cleaner vehicles. - Just quickly, before we move on from ute-gate ` you're incentivising people ` the government effectively incentivises people ` to get utes because of the fringe benefit tax. They get an exemption. So why not exempt utes? Maybe get rid of the fringe benefit tax, the work perk loophole, and exempt utes from the EV scheme so you're not encouraging people to get into utes in the first place, those 'illegitimate' utes around Remuera. - Look, as part of our work to reduce emissions and clean up our vehicle fleet, we're going to have to have a whole range of policies. This is one of them. And at this stage, I won't rule out any other policies. We have a huge programme of work as part of our emissions reduction plan, and we'll look at all of the levers that we can. Kiwis consistently tell us they want cleaner vehicles, they want them at a cheaper price. So we'll look at the policies that will support that. - The $785 million for a cycleway bridge right next to an existing bridge with eight lanes ` is that good bang for back? - Oh, look, I believe it's a really important investment to make sure that Aucklanders can walk or cycle from one side of the city to another ` something that they don't currently have. It's a really important investment. - Why not use one of the existing lines on the existing bridge? - Well, I suspect if we did that, I would be sitting in this interview and you'd be telling me about how outraged our motor vehicle users were there. So there are always trade-offs and choices. But ultimately, this is going to be a really important investment to encourage Aucklanders to walk or cycle across the bridge, taking cars off the bridge, and making it easier for people who do have to use them. - Your cost benefit ratio, though, is as low as 0.4, meaning that for every dollar spent on this thing, you lose up to 60c How is that bang for buck? - Well, Tova, it's really interesting you ask me that, because you're not asking me that about any of the roading projects, which often have similar DCRs. - Let's just focus` Let's just talk about the cycleway. - No, but this is important. This is important, because what's happening at the moment is that we are signalling a different set of priorities and investments across transport. We've just had a Climate Commission report telling us that if we don't take action to give people more choices in transport ` to walk, cycle and public transport ` we are not going to reach our targets. - You just said that people would be outraged if you used lanes on the bridge. If you used lanes on the bridge for cycleways, wouldn't you be disincentivising people to take their cars across the bridge? - Yeah, we potentially would, but we think this is the right option to give the best possible outcome for Auckland. Look, just to be really, really clear, this is an investment which is significant in walking and cycling. It is different to what we've been doing in the past. But we're going to have to make different investments if we want to be up to that challenge and if we don't have our kids, in 30 years' time, looking back at us and saying that we failed and we led to runaway climate change that made our world worse. So I stand by these investments. I know that they'll be tough sometimes, but this is the challenge of governing at a time of change, and we we're up for it. - I want to talk about roads. In news, we have an acronym that we use, and it's one of the cardinal sins of journalism ` it's FTD. Do you know what that means? 'Failed to deliver.' It's also a cardinal sin for government. How many of those New Zealand upgrade programmes have you FTD'd on, have you failed to deliver on? - Oh, look, we've already got 14 of those New Zealand upgrade programmes underway, either completed or shovels in the ground. - How many have you reneged on? - Across all of the rest of the programme, we are delivering investment in all of those key routes around New Zealand. Over 1000 people employed at the moment. $2.4 billion for example, going into South Auckland on transport projects to help people move around. This is a really big programme, and it's going to deliver good transport. - At the time ` I was there ` the Prime Minister was relishing having a crack at National for failing to deliver on some of those roads that you guys were basically repackaging and reannouncing. Take into account that, take into account the City Rail and KiwiBuild, and genuinely` and I'm not meaning to be mean here, but genuinely, how can people trust that you will actually do anything that you say you'll do? - Well, ultimately, people will make a judgement in two and a half years' time, when we ask for their mandate again. But I can point to this programme and show huge progress. As I say, 14 of those projects underway, some of them already complete, and we are absolutely committed to moving forward with these projects. Look, in talking about the way in which we rebalanced the programme, that's something that is really important. As I say, we've had a climate commission tell us that we need to start making changes. Now, both us and the Opposition in Parliament` - We've known climate change is a problem for some time. - Both us and the National Party stood up in Parliament and said we supported that independent Climate Commission approach. They're now telling us that these are the changes we need to make. So I stand by the fact that we are making some tough calls and making sure we have the transport investments that will support lower carbon. - Just finally ` I want to give you the benefit of the doubt ` if you can prove to us that you can change the behaviour of one person, we'll trust that perhaps you can do that for the entire country. Who uses Crown limos the most? Barring yourself, perhaps, who uses Crown limos the most in your Cabinet? - Oh, I couldn't tell you that, Tova, but let me tell you about changing transport in a really relevant way. - Just pick a` find that person for me after the show. - I will. - Let me know who it is. If in three months you can get that person out of Crown Limos and to self-drive EVS or whatever, we will give you the benefit. - Let me give you this example, if you want a clear example about how people's` - Commit. - I'll find who that person was. - There we go. - Let me tell you about people's changing behaviour. The North Shore busway ` when the previous Labour government went forward with that investment, we were told it was a white elephant; North Shore people wouldn't get into buses and change their behaviour. Now half of the people travelling across the bridge at peak hour use that busway. - We have to leave it there. But I look forward to hearing your name-and-shame and getting them into better behaviour. Thank you very much for your time. Transport Minister Michael Wood, kia ora. - Thanks, Tova. - Thank you. If you've got a news tip, get in touch. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, and our Twitter panel this morning is Tim McCready and Emeline Pickering Martin on #NationNZ. Or you can email us, of course, at Nation@tv3.co.nz. E whai ake nei, we dissect the week's political developments with our panel. But first ` the Greens' Julie Anne Genter was watching that interview, and has she had some different ideas? she was one of the original architects of the electric vehicle 'feebate' scheme. So, what does Green MP Julie Anne Genter make of the way it's been rolled out? Let's find out. She joins me now. Tena koe. Welcome. - Tena koe. - How personally important was the EV incentive scheme to you last term? - Well, it is going to be critical to clean up the vehicles that are coming into our fleet. We have one of the most polluting fleets on average, and that's been going the wrong direction, especially with brand-new gas-guzzling vehicles. - Sure. - So it was it was definitely incredibly important that we get some policies in place that would lead to a transition over time. - All right. So you tried it last term; it got reneged, basically, by New Zealand First. This time around, you're not part of the sales team. Do you think it's been sold properly? You had one go last time. You knew what the issues were going to be. How's it been sold this time? - I think it's really important to emphasise that this is a project that New Zealand has to work on together. It's not about individual users. It's not about 'EV drivers vs ute drivers'. It's really about ` what are the policies that are going to be effective at making sure vehicles coming in over time are meeting our objectives on carbon emissions? - Do I sense that you're disappointed, then? Because the way it's been framed at the moment is 'EV drivers vs ute drivers'. - Yeah, and only EVs, as opposed to lower-emissions vehicles. - So you are disappointed about how it's sort of come out? - I mean, I think Michael did great earlier on in the interview, but I do think that, unfortunately, when it was announced, there wasn't enough emphasis on the why. Why is this important? And, you know, the cars, utes and vans that people drive every day are responsible for the majority of our carbon emissions. We have to take action. - So, just on that messaging ` I mean, your boss` I mean, James Shaw, was standing there beside Michael Wood at the time. Did he not get his message across? Did he stuff up the messaging, do you think? - I honestly don't think they were in charge of the messaging. It really was the government, the Labour government, that was responsible for how we went out. And I think that we're going to have a little bit on the back foot now, they're going to have to go out and really explain to people why. - Well, that's right. I mean, this issue of emissions on utes and the effect on farmers and tradies was well canvassed last year yet it's just blown up again. Is that incompetence? - I think it's really important that we look at climate change as a problem like COVID. We have to work together. We can't just focus on individuals and who wins and who loses. We all need to make our contribution, and emphasising that approach, I think, is going to be really important rather than just emphasising the discounts for people who will benefit from lower-emissions vehicles. - OK, a couple of quick questions. Should they get rid of the fringe benefit tax loophole for utes? - Definitely. This is something people don't realise that utes, as a work vehicle for employees, are heavily subsidised, and that's probably why there are so many of them driving around our cities, sign written with accountancy firms and whatnot. - OK. Should the tax on high-emissions vehicles be higher, in your opinion? - Well, in Europe, the highest fee, and France, is 30,000 euro. - As a fee on a high-emission vehicle? - Yeah. So that's like $60,000. - So are you advocating for more? - That's 20 times higher. Well, I would say that when people are acting really outraged about a $3000 fee on a Ranger, I mean, that's a pretty small percentage. It's less than a third of the GST. - So they're getting upset over not very much, is that what you're saying? - If it's a work vehicle, that is tax deductible. So I think we need to put it in perspective. - OK, all right. Just quickly ` should the incentives to buy an EV be much higher, like in Germany ` 15K? - Well, I think in order for them to be higher, we would have to accept higher fees. - Right. - Maybe we should be making the case for that over time. - OK, so higher fees, higher incentives later on, maybe. - Yeah, definitely. - How fair is this policy in terms of people who can't afford this? So, the people who can't afford to buy an EV are going to be buying in the second-hand market. The second-hand market has less safe cars and more polluting cars. - That's actually not true. The more carbon-intensive cars being sold, coming in as new imports, are the brand new cars because our second hand fleet comes from Japan, who have had really strict fuel economy standards for decades. - Yeah. - So on average, the second-hand vehicles coming in are actually more fuel efficient, if you will. - So the Japanese imports are more fuel efficient than the new Ranger? Is that what you're saying? - Exactly, yeah. I mean, they don't even really have Rangers in Japan. - But those people are also` The same sector of the community is buying less safe cars, though. I mean, the average age of a car in a fatal crash is 13 years, right? - So, the real issue with unsafe vehicles is the vehicles already in the fleet, and that's the issue, you know, with some of the more polluting vehicles as well. But none of those are affected by this policy. This is about vehicles as they come into the country, making sure they are safer, they are cleaner. And I think it is fair, because if we didn't keep the fees and the rebates within that market of people buying new to New Zealand cars, then it would be a subsidy, and it would be regressive. It would be from general taxation. It would be at the expense of health and education and housing. But this means that it's just a lever within the new imports` - OK, so you think it's fair. - ...to influence which imports people are buying. - Just quickly, on the new harbour crossing for cyclists and pedestrians ` money well spent, yes or no? - Well, look, I'm happy to see a connection for walking and cycling. That is really important. - But? - Obviously, we could do it cheaper and faster on the existing bridge, and lots of cities around the world are doing that. They're taking car lanes off bridges for active transport. - That's right. So, Brooklyn, Golden Gate Bridge... - The Bay Bridge in San Francisco. Burrard Street in Vancouver. In London, they're doing the same thing. - So they've all taken lanes from existing cars, and there hasn't been an outrage from motorists about that? - Before it happened, there were lots of people predicting 'Carmageddon'. And afterwards, most of those people have been absolutely convinced of the success of the policy. - So this stand-alone cyclist-and-pedestrian bridge ` the money should be spent where else instead? - Well, we need to have a comprehensive network of safe cycleways. That's what's going to lead to more people choosing to leave the car at home, and ultimately, that benefits our road network, and it reduces our emissions. And until we have completed networks, you're not going to see a big increase in people using bikes anyway. - So the bridge shouldn't go ahead? - Look, I have said that the cost of the bridge is not the cost of walking and cycling; it's the cost of keeping all eight lanes on the existing bridge for cars. And if that's what people want, well, they should be prepared to pay for it. If they don't want to close bridges` Because the people complaining about the cost of the bridge would also probably oppose opening a lane to active transport. - Julie Anne Genter, we're going to have to leave it there. Thank you very much for your time. All right. Up next, analysis from our political panel ` Tiana Jakicevich, Marj Joiner and Simon Wilson. Plus, behind the scenes with young political up-and-comer Arena Williams. there will be a full review of our 66-year-old adoption laws. It's a project close to the heart of Labour MP Paul Eagle, who has both adopted and the father of an adopted son. Let's take a look at his 2017 maiden speech. - My birth mother told me of her sadness,... how she missed me... (SNIFFLES) (SIGHS) ...and worried about how I was doing. (WEEPS) (SIGHS) (SIGHS) At shopping malls, she would look at each little Maori boy and wonder if it were me. (SNIFFLES) But over 45 years later, it's still nice to know that she wanted me... (WEEPS) - WHISPERS: Come on, mate. Come on. You can do it. - (SIGHS) - Come on. - ...and would have kept me if she could. - And Paul Eagle joins me now. Incredibly moving, Paul, and the first time, I think, you were saying that you've watched that back since you delivered it. - Very difficult to see. But, yeah, that's an accurate account of my experience of adoption, mm. Yeah, very hard to see and very emotional at the time. - Kia ora for your korero. And I wonder as well how you felt when we heard yesterday that the 66-year-old adoption laws are finally, finally being reviewed. - Yeah, a real sense of relief. I'd worked with Minister Little, Minister Faafoi also. The prime minister had attempted back in 2013 to put something up to say it is time. So, huge sense of relief. I was at Fieldays. The phone went crazy. People were saying, 'Is this for real? We've just heard,' and I spent most of the time there actually responding to people, saying, 'We're all go.' - And you have a unique perspective as someone who was adopted and as someone who has also adopted a son. What changes will you be looking for off the back of this review? - So, it's really important that people participate in the process. So, one of the big things for me is access to information, identity and making sure people who are adopted, for example, have that information. I also know people who adopt, so adoptive parents, and those seeking adoption also want to have a say, so this is their time. - And Australia's apologised and apologised back in 2013 for forced adoptions. New Zealand hasn't even done an Inquiry into that, even though in 1997, parliament did acknowledge that cohesion happened to get babies off their mothers. Do you think that New Zealand should apologise too? Or at the very least, should we be looking at an Inquiry into forced adoptions? - So, I'll be encouraging them to participate in the process. I know many of them have firm ideas about an apology. This is their time to go through the process, participate and let's look at it. I think the key thing is let's look at it in the context of all of the impacts of adoption, and once we get that material, we will go back out to the public next year and be able to say, 'Is this is this right? Have we got this right?' And I believe that conversation can be addressed through this consultation process. - And do you think, having spoken to those people and hearing their concern, hearing their experiences, many of which are heartbreaking, do you think an apology is actually necessary? - I think at this stage it's much more saying, 'I've been meeting with people for the last four years.' When I did this speech, hundreds of people have come to me, mainly privately, and said, 'I've got a story to tell,' and I want their stories brought about with other stories to say, you know, 'What's the best way forward here?' So, if an apology is due, that will be addressed through this process. But it's about getting those stories, those experiences into a document that says, 'Look, this is the way forward,' just remembering it's the child that should be at the heart of everything. So, once we get that right, I believe the solutions will come. - And the government, of which you are a part, says it will look to the Treaty and tikanga Maori in its review. How could concepts like whangai change or be more, kind of, centred to all of this off the back of it? - So, we've got some obligations to te Tiriti, and I believe that the whangai system's pretty good. I mean, if you look at those who have been part of whangai, they have certainly been able to have the Maori version of adoption and done really well. It's a concept that keeps the whanau tight, and I think that's an issue that's been raised. Under the current system, you have what's called the 'closed-stranger adoption', which, basically, cuts off the whanau. With whangai, it brings the whanau together and keeps identity, the information and the children's best interests at heart ` or the child, sorry. - And so, how could that be used perhaps in the review ` extrapolating that concept? - Well, there's a big drive for people to say, 'Is the current way we do adoption right?' The practise is certainly different to what the legislation says, and some of those concepts, I know for me, personally, we're embracing the birth whanau in the whole process of our young one. - And there are thousands of families out there wanting to adopt in New Zealand, but they can't. Why is that? - So, back in the '60s and '70s, when this was all the go, children were being placed into homes, you know, people went through a shameful experience, the stigma of it. That's gone now. And so, I think the time has come for us to say, 'How do we care for our children? What are the options? 'What does adoption mean in the modern times, in these times, that reflects our current values?' - There are only about 125 adoptions every year when thousands of parents, thousands of families are out there wanting to adopt. Why is there that disconnect? - So, what happens now is less and less people are adopting, but there are children who would be, I believe, better served. And that's what people tell me all the time. 'I would have liked to have adopted my child, but there seemed to be just the one system.' And this process, hopefully, will bring out many solutions and allow those who want to adopt and those that want to look at saying, 'I'm not the best person to raise my child or children,' here's a better concept for allowing them to live a decent life. - Kia ora, Paul Eagle. Thank you very much for your time this morning. - Kia ora. E whai ake nei, up-and-coming Labour MP Arena Williams shares her back story. And then accidental coup ` a rising National Party MP reveals leadership ambitions. She's also a former lawyer, a mother of two and one of just many artists in the Family. Newshub Nation visited MP for Manurewa Arena Williams, at home to hear her Backstory. - I grew up in Taknanini, and have come back here in the last year, and it's been beautiful to reconnect. I grew up in a household where we always had people in our kitchen, dad being a councillor, but he was also a minister, just constantly had people knocking on the door and asking him for help. I have older brothers and sisters who are now in their 50s who are my half siblings and my dad's kids, and I'm my mum's only child. So I have the best of both worlds. I'm the youngest. I'm the oldest. I'm the only. (LAUGHS) I got` My first role in the Labour Party was on a local electorate committee in a Maori seat being the youth rep. Don't think I was particularly effective, but I got into doorknocking and delivering flyers and making phone calls, and then I got into student politics when I was 20, then national level student politics, then stood for Labour in 2014 as a 24-year-old. And all of those things feel like just another step on this path. And I'm by no means, sort of, stopped on that journey. I met Max in student politics. When I was about 20, he became the President of the Victoria Student's Association, and I was the vice president at the time, and then became the president of the Auckland University Student's Association. And whenever I'm asked how we met, I say, 'Uni!' (LAUGHS) Because it's too much. He's a public law litigator, and I also really love his work, I find the legal nuts and bolts of sort of deciding about what fairness is and what reasonableness is in the context of the government really fascinating. And he also does a criminal prosecution work. And I would have loved to do something like that, but it wasn't for me. So I get to live vicariously through him. We got married in our late 20s. That was a wedding that was far too ambitious. And I would counsel any of my friends not to do what we did. We invited two hundred people to my mums house and to my family marae, and cooked two meals by ourselves. - And this is a bench! - I think having the two kids while I've been working really long hours has also made me think really critically about my commitment to te reo Maori. I've always really wanted to raise my kids in a Maori-speaking home and really lucky to have Dad living with us because he speaks fluent te Reo. He didn't speak English till he was 9. Dad is in his early 90s, we think. He grew up on the shores of the Ohiwa harbour in a raupo whare with a dirt floor with his two elderly grandparents who had had so little engagement with pakeha culture and pakeha people that they spoke no English. And so his way of learning English was from the Bible before he could go to school. And so he started school when he was an older kid. And there's no record of how old he was when he started school, let alone when he was born. So we're not quite sure how old he is, but he likes to push it down a little bit. Our relations like to push it up a little bit. - And when we went for our first meal at Ardmore, we went really early to avoid the fact that the pakeha students would embarrass us by seeing us not being able to use the knife and fork. This piece here started when Arena was about 4 years onld, and finished two years ago. It's taken over 25 years to work on it. - You can see a bit of it in the sky. I mean, there's layers and layers and layers of what has been patterns going on, and have been painted over and start again. And the best advice that you ever gave me about doing art was nothing's ever a mistake. - Never start again, just keep going. - There's not no mistakes. - Definitely approach life like that. Just give things go. I listened to valedictory speeches because I'm that kind of nerd. And they always reflect on how they've managed to help the individual people. It's not the legacy-building legislation that they've brought in, it's not what they've done. and these enormous budgets and allocated billions of dollars, it's those single one-on-one cases where they've managed to really change an individual's life, I think, that make the most profound impact on politicians. And what I've found is that kind of connection and relationship building and empowering people to fix their own problems is what I find the most satisfying when I'm getting home late at night. - Arena Williams there. Right, now it's time for the panel. Simon Wilson is joining us, who's a senior writer at the Herald, Tiana Jakicevich, who is on the Victoria University Council and is a member of the Indigenous Climate Action Group Te Ara Whatu, kia ora, and public policy specialist at Senate SHJ Marg Joiner, always welcome to the programme. Thanks very much for your time, guys. Tiara, first to you, do you think that the government is walking the talk when it comes to its own car use having watched Michael Wood just then? - I think if we're talking about the climate future we want, we need to ensure that the government isn't investing in polluting industries, things like Putiki Point and ensuring that we have a future. - What's Putiki point? - It is a marina being built in Waiheke Island where the korora, blue penguin territory is in danger, and it's also indigenous lands. - Right. And so that's the marina side., What about on the road side? - On the roads? I think, if I think about what the government is doing, you know, if we're talking about the climate-just future that we want, things like the Harbour Bridge, if we walk the talk, why don't we remove a lane instead of spending more money, which will increase emissions rather than reducing. - Definitely want to talk about more on that and I really want to hear from you on that, Simon. But do you think the government miscalculated the pushback, especially from farmers, ute-gate, when it came to the EV scheme? - I'm not sure if they miscalculated. I imagine they were ready for it because, of course, we've seen that the first time a feedback scheme was proposed. The big issue here is that we've got a we've had a policy for vehicles that caters primarily to people who need big utes. You know, that's very few of us. And yet Ford Rangers are the top-selling vehicle in this country. A whole lot of people are buying them, partly because there's a tax break on it, and partly because it's cool, and partly because all sorts of things. - Doesn't that seem like an inconsistency, then? So you give people the tax break to get a ute, So you've got the accountants driving around. - It absolutely is. But it's worth remembering 57% of crashes, serious injuries and deaths on the road now are caused` the people who are affected are people outside of vehicle. They are cyclists, walkers and motorcyclists being hit by cars, utes, big double-cab utes are a prime offender there because the damage they do so much worse than others. We need a policy that will balance that up. It isn't about penalising farmers and tradies, it's about saying, 'OK, they've got their needs, but for everybody`' - Is the government doing it's messaging right here, Simon` Marg, is the government doing it's messaging right? I mean, when you've got Jacinda Ardern saying, using the word 'legitimate use,' I mean, are they going to just alienate people by using that kind of messaging? - Yeah, and herein lies the political challenge of governing for all New Zealanders, which is something this government has said it's gonna do. And I think when you make comments like how and when you can own a ute, that's where you run into some challenges. Some constituents will respond well to that. Others may say none of your business. So I think that is that challenge. And this is a micro level initiative. If we lift up and look at how we respond and decarbonise our economy, and look at where the where the costs land, where the benefits land, it's a real challenge, because it's looking like with some of these initiatives, it may land where it shouldn't, and we'll be looking to the government to address that. And that is the challenge. It's a political challenge when you're governing for all New Zealand. - Back to the cycle bridge, I do want your thoughts on this, Simon, because I think you were quite vociferous in your response to our producer when we talked about it before the before the panel. Who even wants this? - It's very hard to know. The phrase that springs to mind for me is predatory delay. The Minister is working with a government agency, Waka Kotahi, the Transport Agency, who have delayed and delayed and delayed the whole project of getting cycling and walking on the Harbour Bridge, and overlooked the demand for a trial, and eventually come up with something that's so expensive that it's guaranteed to create the fury that we've seen. The cycling lobby didn't call for it, nobody called for it, it came out of the agency. And if the agency was serious about looking at how you get cycling and walking on the bridge, surely there would be a trial. And if they were right that the trial won't work, we'd find that out, we'd all know where we stood, and we could move on. Yet the trials, cheap, easy to do and should be the first option. - As Anna pointed out I think, too. But I think the big question here is should this stuff be politicised? So, we get boxed into corners, and if we look back at Transit New Zealand, for instance, it had a very strict and rigid process with cost benefit analysis. Some things didn't get funded and you can debate the merits of that. But what it did do was protect these kind of big, important decisions from politics, and the political cycles of the three year with general, in the case of local, the four year cycle. - On the political scene, I just want to drill down to something that happened this week in terms of the School Strike for climate change movement in Auckland. And Tiana, I'll bring you in on this. So they disbanded because they declared themselves racist. Now you're part of an indigenous climate activist group Te Ara Whatu, what did you make of that decision? - I think it's honest bravery from the point of these rangatahi, we have to bear in mind that they are very young. And the sad thing about this is that they've had to do this on their own. They've had no support from other climate organisations. And when we're looking at this, like the climate movement, for us to get the climate just future that we want, the movement has to be intersectional. We have to have room for everybody. So while I think it's very commendable, I think a lot of other organisations need to look at them and take something from their process and figure out how can we ensure that this movement is intersectional. - They were talking about creating space for an indigenous voice in climate change action. Do you believe that this kind of action will do that? I think it's opened the door to communication, to the conversation of what is racism within the movement, what spaces are people taking up and whose voices should be at the table? You know, indigenous peoples are first and worst affected by this. So we need to lead the conversation, but it needs to be in partnership with everybody. - I'm really keen to hear, Marg, your thoughts on Winston Peters, that fulsome interview that he did with Anna Bracewell-Worrall as he headed into the AGM. - She did well to catch him. - (LAUGHS) She did! She's done that dance before. As has he, many times. Do you think he's going to make a comeback? - Well, I mean, as Anna said, the only person who can give you an answer to that is Winston, and we'll only get that answer when he's ready. So I think it's a tricky question to answer. And lots of people have kind of made predictions, and they've turned out right or wrong, but politics is a fickle thing and there is a sense the electorate is moving. Labour knows they got quite a few soft votes. So there is potentially a fair bit of fodder there for them, as you pointed out, with the feedback. The facts are, though, that they got 65,000 votes in 2020. They need at least 100000 more. So this conference will be about is that energy still there? Addressing the resilience and the energies of the membership. They'll be looking at where those votes are going to come from and they'll be looking at funding. The other thing, of course, is the SFO and getting some space between. - Simon Wilson, I don't think you believe New Zealander First has a future, is that right? - I would be surprised if they do. I mean, predicting in politics, what a mug's game that is. I know that. TOVA: Especially with that one particular person. - Well, actually, I was thinking more about all the other people in New Zealand First. Despite the profile they got by being in a coalition government, none of them managed to carve out for themselves an electoral base. Shane Jones most obviously, Ron Mark did very poorly, you know, a person that a lot of people have a lot of respect for. Tracy Martin as well. - You will have the Greens though, and I think that's a weakness of our small parties. The electoral bases are their safe ticket back if they can't` - If there's a difference, though, isn't there, between New Zealand First and the Greens? The Greens are an issue based organisation fundamentally, and therefore not so reliant on the personalities of their leaders. - Yes. - And yet New Zealand First has been trapped in that. - And we're going to see on Sunday afternoon. Tova's gonna be there, by the way, to see whether Winston is announcing his comeback. - Yeah, with baited breath. - Thank you so much to our panel for today. Thank you so much for your time. Stay with us. We will be back after the break. He's a former lawyer, submariner, and now Chris Penk is National's spokesperson for Courts and Defence, and he isn't ruling out a run at the top job... one day. Finn Hogan started by asking him how he'd clear the backlog as courts minister. - Getting rid of the waiting times that we've got. Huge backlog, massive implications for access to justice. Kiwi in their personal life ` think Family Court ` or their working lives, just total logjam in terms of cases heard. Look, a little bit of it is post-COVID. That has exacerbated an existing problem. But the problem's been around for a long time, and there's no imagination at the moment currently in terms of the government sorting that out. - Well, show me your imagination. Give me a specific example of what you'd do. - Sure. The first thing I do is to allow the Disputes Tribunal to handle a lot more cases. The way it's been set up, limitations in terms of not being able to allow people to go there for bad debts, and then they'll make orders, and those won't be enforced. So someone will go to the trouble of going to the Disputes Tribunal and say, 'I've been done wrong.' They'll get a judgement to say, 'Yes, this amount needs to be paid by the person who's ripped you off.' And then, quick as a flash, nothing happens and they don't enforce that because that's the way that the legislation's been set up. - So. in terms of other specialist courts, National has said that they would expand their use, specifically alcohol and drug courts. Can you tell me more about what that would look like? - Yes. So the starting point is that we set up the alcohol and other drug treatment courts. And we believe really strongly that specialist help for people who are in difficulties, not only with the law, but in terms of their personal life and stuff that's going on in this area of substance abuse is directly causing that offending. So, it's a really quite enlightened approach to say, 'Look, we need to help these people in a way that reflects their need to get out, 'for their sake and also for society.' - Advocates in this space, though, would say a more enlightened approach would be to reform the Misuse of Drugs Act entirely. Drug courts are the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Would you support any substantial reform of the Drugs Act? - Well, I don't think that it's the ambulance at the bottom in the sense that the implications for recidivist offending would actually be reducing a lot of the ongoing problems with a relatively small number of people who are addicted to drugs and causing harm to themselves and others. So I do reject the premise of that statement. But in terms of drug law changes more generally, National has said that we would respect the result of the referendum at the last election, and that was a majority ` albeit narrow ` in favour of the status quo. - On defence, the government has committed to rewrite New Zealand's defence priorities. Could you just give me your number one defence priority? Where are you, minister? - The number one defence priority must be for the average New Zealander to understand the debt that we owe to our Defence Force. We need to understand all the different ways in which they're helping New Zealand because that will provide the social licence for any government to be able to spend what we need to spend on defence. - How would you do that? How would you make them understand that? - Well, I think by giving publicity to a lot of things that people are totally unaware of at the moment. The only time that you see Defence Force being praised, really, in this country as an ongoing matter of, you know, reliably, would be Anzac Day. And you get a lot of good language from a lot of government MPs who will turn up and wear their relatives' medals, and then 364 other days of the year, you know, not even that lip service, totally forgotten. But defence isn't a pressure group. They're not allowed to join a union. They're not allowed to advocate for themselves. They're not allowed to advertise what they do except in relation to recruitment. And I don't see a lot of ministers going in to bat for them, and that's really unfortunate. - The previous defence minister, Ron Mark, liked to point to global agitators disrupting the world order. I just wonder if you could point to, in your mind, who the current number one disruption to the world order is? - Well, I think it would be outside my scope as defence minister to comment on issues that go, for example, across boundaries such as trade, such as international affairs. - But defence does touch on that, by nature, right? - Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, if anything, actually, one of the great challenges for us is the non-state actors. And, yes, we could probably look around the world and say that they predominantly come out of one country or another, and there are a number of problematic areas in that space. - Does National have a diversity problem? - We have too few members of parliament at the moment who represent different sectors of New Zealand society, yes, but I do want to make a clear distinction. The reason that we have that problem is because we did poorly in the last election. - What was National's biggest mistake? - Our biggest mistake was that we spent a lot of time talking about ourselves as a caucus, as a party. We need to talk about things that matter to New Zealanders. And the minute that we get introspective and focussed on the roles that each MP, himself or herself, might play, then by definition, we're not focussed on what matters to New Zealanders. - Does Judith Collins have your full support as leader? - Yes, she does. - She is the best person to lead National to victory at the next election? - Yes, she is. - Do you ever want to be leader? - Not any time soon. I certainly wouldn't put my hand up before I felt ready. - So, soft yes. - (CHUCKLES) Well, we would see. Potentially in the future, but that's not something that I'd be interested in even engaging with at the moment. - Chris Penk, saviour of the National Party there. - (CHUCKLES) - A soft yes, Simon. - Absolutely. He's being honest about his ambitions. It's great. All right. Look, it's time for our panel again ` Tiana Jakicevich, Simon Wilson and Marg Joiner. Thanks for your time again, guys. I want to go back to Julie Anne Genter and her take on the EV rollout. She was one of the architects. Tiana, do you think from that interview that she was happy with how it, sort of, transpired? - I think politics is politics, whether or not the ambitions and targets are being met fast enough. You know, they're not the governing party so... - That's a good point. They're not the governing party, are they? - Except I'm sure, of course, as the Climate Change Minister. So, you'd think that he would have some say on the EV incentive policy. - And as Tiana's picked up, definitely some frustrated ambitions in that interview with the minister. Sorry. - (LAUGHTER) - Former minister. Slip of the tongue. - What do you think, Simon? Is she not very happy with how it's been rolled out? - It was her policy. The Greens would like us to be further down the track than we are now, and I imagine they would like it to be a better version of the policy. And you can see Jacin-, uh, Julie Anne Genter... - (LAUGHTER) - Prime minister now. Promotion. ...champing at the bit, you know. She clearly wants to be in there. She's had a taste of what that is to have your hands on the levers. It was frustrating for her being in a coalition government. You want your politicians to be ambitious in that way, you know. It makes them do more. - And frustrating, I think, to see, as well, if you don't feel like your policy, your baby is being sold properly to the public. - And there's a hell of a lot of work that we don't see in putting together a policy package like that. So, again, as you say, Tova, it is like a baby and the way it's sold is important. - It felt like there were a couple of things going on there. A) She was feeling that the Greens had perhaps been railroaded by Labour, but also, I felt like there was a bit of a tacit dig at her boss there. - OK. - James Shaw who was standing up there with Michael Wood. He is part of selling that policy. So, does anyone agree with me on that? Do you think there was a little bit of a, as you say, 'I wish I was doing it. Perhaps James Shaw didn't do as good a job.' - Transport is the biggest issue for urban New Zealanders we face in relation to climate change, and Auckland is 40% of all emissions. And we aren't doing enough. The new proposals that have been announced by the minister, Michael Wood, the new plans, we've learnt only this week that they're only going to reduce emissions by about 1%. That's not nearly, nearly enough. We should be looking at over 60% over the next 10 years. So, of course, Julie Anne Genter and the Greens are champing at the bit. This is their issue, and they are seeing it mishandled. - Okay, Tiana, you would be also be frustrated by the amount spent on roads, just quickly, wouldn't you? - (LAUGHTER) - Okay. That's said. Yup, that's it. It's the last word on that one. - But the Paul Eagle interview, I mean, I kind of choked up. He hadn't watched that maiden speech since he delivered it in 2017, Marg. What did you make of that? How did you find that kind of moment, I suppose? - Yeah. I mean, I'm pleased you played it. It would have been hard to watch, but I'm pleased you played it for your viewers to see because there's a lot of maiden speeches. And as far as maiden speeches go, that's a really powerful one, and one that a lot of New Zealanders or your viewers may not have been able to see, so I'm pleased you played that. - The issue of adoption would not be foremost for many New Zealanders to think about. But it surprised me learning that there was only 125 adoptions a year, Simon. - I know. It's tiny, isn't it? I think it's very hard to escape the idea that our adoption laws and our culture around adoption is based on the idea that people should be punished for something, yeah. So people who've made decisions in the worst, most acutely difficult times of their lives have to live with it, they have to live with the consequences. And the consequences are not just for them as the parents giving up, but obviously, for the children, for everybody else and for all those people who want to adopt. There are so many people affected by this. If we're going to have a really comprehensive review, I think that's just terrific. We can get it much more humane, I think. - How long overdue, Tiana? I mean, we've looked at this law, or there hasn't been a proper review of this law since 1955. - Well, overdue. You know, like, Maori are... You know, there hasn't been a review into how Maori have been affected by adoption. While we do have whangai, and that that aims to keep whanau together, even back in the day, like, my nana is a product of whangai, but she had to be legally adopted for that whangai to work. So, we need to be looking at how we can keep whanau together and looking into these processes. - And what about the forced adoption as well? It feels like we're behind Australia on this. They've already issued an apology. We've acknowledged that there was coercion in New Zealand. Why haven't we had an Inquiry into this, Simon? - Not enough public pressure, perhaps. This is an issue that affects people who are very often at the bottom end of the scale. Those things take a long time to bubble up into public consciousness. - And it has now. All right. It's time now to end our panel. Thank you so much for your time, and we'll leave it there. - Kia ora koutou. - All right. That's all from us for now. Thank you and I hope you enjoyed the programme. Hei kona mai. - Nga mihi nui. It was lovely to have you back, Shep Dog. Thank you very much. - Great to be here. - And see you all again next weekend. Captions by Maeve Kelly, John Gibbs and Kristin Williams. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 - This programme was made with the assistance of the New Zealand on Air Platinum Fund.