We regret that we are unable to provide captions for this programme. CEO of Waipareira Trust John Tamihere; Bernie O'Donnell, who's chair of the Manukau Urban Maori Authority ` welcome... - Thank you. - ...and senior journalist Maria Slade from the National Business Review. Thank you all for your time this morning. - Hello. - We're going to start off with the topic of hate speech. John, I mean, you're no stranger to controversial comments in the past. - Mm. - But do you think these proposed changes will effect that kind of freedom of expression versus inciting hatred? - Yeah, look, I think, as all societies develop and evolve, we develop new methodologies, and we set new standards. And this is a very important debate. So, a Clark and a Key would've kicked the can down the road, so that's really pleasing to see that this government's sort of taking on board some very difficult issues that we've pushed down. We've got to start on the basis of protecting freedom of speech, and then, and only then` Because the integrity of that underwrites our democracy, yeah. - Right. - And then, when you start putting borders in around that, we've got to be very grown-up about having a widespread, consultative debate on where those lines are drawn. - So, will you be adding your voice to the submissions? Where is that line between clamping down on freedom of speech or allowing that? - Well, I can give you an example. - Yeah, go. - Two weeks ago, a white supremacist from Tauranga posted to YouTube for 24 hours a YouTube stating that he wants all his white patriots in New Zealand to join him to kill Maori and to burn their marae. - Right. - That's hate speech. - Yeah. - OK. That is just not right. He gets visited by the police and warned. A brown mongrel mob member gets arrested and placed in court the next day. Now, we've got to have a consistent range of law and the application of it. - Right. I mean, I don't know the second part of that` It was` But that's an example. Bernie, I mean, from your point of view, do you welcome what is being proposed? - Absolutely. I think what we're sort of missing at the moment, cos we're trying to get the technical issues around the whole hate speech kaupapa` But really, what it should do is allow us as a nation to have the conversation. And I just look at the unconscious bias sort of conversations that happen because for a long time there we couldn't quite put a label on the things that were oppressing communities like Maori. The hate speech really now starts to have a conversation about what's acceptable and what isn't acceptable. And I do acknowledge it may oppress the ability to have freedom of speech, but freedom of speech, especially in positions of responsibility, there is responsibility on how you've expressed yourself under that. And I just think that just what's happened at the moment, a politician who we don't need to name has talked about it ` 'Who asked us that we were gonna change our name from New Zealand to Aotearoa?' That in itself may not be a hatred speech kaupapa yet, but it does feed oxygen into the people that have issues. - But that's the problem with the line, isn't it? This is the line that can` I mean, from a political point of view, it's a tricky thing to find, isn't it? I know they've got to consult on it, but how do you how do you actually define it? - It's certainly going to be an interesting debate. But, look, I just think about what we do at NBR. We allow comments on our stories, which not all media do now. And it is fair to say we've got a fairly right-of-centre audience, as a generalisation. And some of the comments we get are pretty interesting, and we do moderate them, obviously. But I feel like it's important for people to know that there are people out there who think these things, you know, rightly or wrongly. You might not agree with them, you might not like them, but there are people who still hold views that you or I might find distasteful. - We have to find a way for those views to be heard... yet not spread hatred, you know. - Not amplify it, yeah. - Not amplify it. Bernie, do you like my last point on that? - Yeah, the danger is that that kind of thinking goes underground and we kid ourselves as a country that we're all fine. - So is it a possibility that have been bringing in a hate speech law could` John Tamihere, could it force it underground? - Oh, look. Well, you run the risk of that happening. Here's the thing, though ` it's pretty tough in this world where we've got keyboard warriors all over the place who are hiding in their closets, doing what they're do, right? And they're all traceable. So on one side of it, if it was just paper in the old days, it would be different. I think we've grown up, right? And I think we're having a grown-up conversation, and bring it on. - OK. Well, let's see where that conversation takes us. Let's move to the other issue of the morning ` housing. First of all, social housing waitlists ` no commitment on when the government wants to bring that down. Bernie, is that good enough? Or is it just too hard? - All I'm saying is that the realities of home ownership for our people is just beyond us. And the social housing strategy should be used to transition four people from not being in the game of buying a house to being able to be prepared to do that in maybe a five-year period. What happens under the current system is it's just all too fast in terms of how it's rolled out, and our people inevitably get left behind. So, if we continue to do the things that we've been doing in the past, our people can't pass the credit cheques, they can't get past page one of the bank application to get a mortgage. So, we need to know that, own it, and change that game. There's already stuff happening, eh. There's the Waimahia Project in Weymouth, South Auckland, where the Maori trustees have bought the land and the whanau` - So there are some things happening, yeah. - Yeah. And the significant one is what's happened in Titahi Bay with Ngati Toa Rangatira. They've bought up a block of apartments that have leaky homes issues; they've sent in the tradies to fix them up, and they're going to sell them back to their people. - OK, so that's boots on the ground, that's Maori initiatives on the ground. But at the other end of the spectrum, we're still looking, according to the Treasury forecasts, of homes being seven times household incomes, Maria. I mean, is that acceptable? The government says, 'No, it's not acceptable, but I don't know how to bring it down, really.' - It is what it is at the moment, you know, and we have to remember that this dates back to the GFC. Post the GFC, the debt markets collapsed. Nobody was building houses. The number of consents plummeted to about 14,000 a year or something like that ` very low. And the government of the day, the National government of the day, did not intervene. And we are still paying the price for the lack of housing that was built over that period. Consents are now at about 42,000, 43,000 a year, but that's early 1970s levels, when we were a team of three million. We're now a team of over five million, and we're only catching up. The things that will play to our advantage now, of course ` our immigration has slumped. We were 90,000 a year. Now we're about six or seven, I think. And so the sheer number of people wanting houses has dropped a bit. - Could we see a rebalancing? - Oh, look, I think that we've got a government now ` the first since 1996 ` that can actually make decisions without being hamstrung. And so there's a lot of expectation on this government, and we've got a reasonably good prime minister that's had the mana to take poverty under her wing. And so` You would never get a prime minister that would take such a decision. - OK, so you sound slightly optimistic, but the Treasury forecasts are, like, it's not going to change, really. - No, no. But you see, how can you change 25 years of gutless politics in three, right? And you've raised that point from an NBR perspective. It's just wrong. - Just finally, is there any chance that we will ever get back to those affordability levels where three times your income �is going to get you into a house? - I don't think so. - No? - I think that it's completely politically unpalatable, the idea that you would wipe hundreds of thousands of dollars off people's wealth by bringing house prices down. It's just not going to happen. You've got to come up with solutions such as Bernie's mentioning ` the rent-to-buy schemes, the whanau schemes, that kind of thing, that help people into houses who just otherwise wouldn't have a hope. I mean, state housing is one part of the picture, but you're sort of almost ghettoising people. You're putting them into state houses for the rest of their lives. - And just briefly ` Megan Woods was saying, 'We need to get the private rental market fixed to get those people off the state housing register.' Is that an answer? - What I'd say ` unless you get housing right, all those social determinants that we talk about around the access to quality health, quality education, financial stability and growing communities won't work if we don't sort out the housing for our people. - All right. I'm going to have to leave it there for the moment. Thank you so much to our panel. E whai ake nei ` did the government move fast enough over the Wellington COVID scare? Plus, a brief moment of sporting bipartisanship in the halls of power. A COVID-positive Aussie flies into the capital to live it up for the weekend. But so far ` everything crossed ` it seems Wellington has dodged the Delta variant. - Wellington has, this very minute, stepped up to COVID alert Level 2. - Concerned that we are now exposed to Australia's risk. - Testing stations straining with the onslaught. - There was a lack of information, for sure. - Speed is of the essence, and so it is a little bit patchy. - The fact private businesses were alerting people before the Minister of Health got on to it is, frankly, disgraceful. - There are no positive cases in the community to report. - Sydney back in COVID-19 chaos. - You need to stay at home unless absolutely necessary. - We're constantly reviewing whether or not additional restrictions are required, and we won't hesitate to apply them. - Good news to report today. We have no positive cases of COVID-19 in the community in New Zealand today. - We're not out of the woods, and we need people to be tested. We need to maintain our current approach. - A very close brush with the pandemic here in Wellington this week. And I'm joined now by the man who never sleeps, epidemiologist Michael Baker. Professor Michael Baker, thank you very much for joining us this morning. We now know that this person who came to Wellington had the more virulent Delta strain. Did we dodge a bullet? And then how much did it contribute, the fact that they'd had one dose of the vaccine? - Kia ora, Tova. Yes, it is looking like a good outcome at the moment. And I think the fact they were partially vaccinated probably reduced their viral load, made them less infectious. And then there is the element of luck that just some people do not` are not very infectious to other people around them. - Do we need to change tack in New Zealand and just get one dose out? Jab as many people at least once in New Zealand before we start moving on to the second dose? - I can't rule out, as is appropriate, what we're doing, but I think this case just reminds us that this is a very unforgiving strain of the virus, the Delta variant. We have to really look at every aspect of our response, and it just needs to be improved based on the best science we can and learning from overseas experience to get ahead of this virus. - And in terms of the speed at which the government` or the lack thereof at which the government closed or paused the travel bubble with New South Wales, do we need to be hyper-cautious when it comes to pausing that travel bubble? A single community case, for example, and to slam that border shut? - Yeah, it's looking like that. Because this virus can spread so quickly overseas, I think we need to be much more cautious. I mean, overall, the Green Zone of Australia is working very well, and we can just, obviously, use the fact that there's good surveillance in Australia. But I think after this, we're going to be much more cautious. - And this really was a cautionary tale as well, wasn't it? And we saw that complacency had set in with New Zealanders. We're not using the app as much as we should be. You've called for it before, but why is it more important now than ever to make scanning mandatory? - We saw that with this outbreak. Basically, this person went to lots of indoor environments while they were here. And when it was discovered that they were infected, we went to send notifications to all the close contacts in those environments, and there was virtually no one there because New Zealanders had not scanned in. So that means that it's a great tool, but it's not working properly because of the human factor. We have to fix that problem. It's actually quite easy to do. We just make it a requirement for high-risk indoor environments that you scan in. This is not going into the corner dairy; this is going into packed exhibitions where you often have controlled entry, nightclubs, bars, entertainment venues, where you can get these superspreading episodes. This would affect very few New Zealanders if we made it mandatory for those places. - Why reticence from the government on making scanning mandatory, do you think? - I think, maybe, that we just haven't encountered this virus in New Zealand, so we're hoping for the best. But I don't think we can do that with this new variant. We will almost certainly see cases before we are fully vaccinated. So I think we need to use the best science and international experience to get ahead of this virus. - And especially now that we're dealing with these more virulent strains like the Delta strain, what is your recommendation to the government when it comes to mask wearing? - Well, we know that the virus does not follow the two-metre rule. It's not just droplets. We know it's aerosols that can go right across a room. So having people come to work in Wellington on Friday, indoors, not wearing masks when some of them could have been infectious isn't good enough anymore. And if you look at countries overseas, they're all adopting masks as the critical control measure. If you're wearing a mask, you're not firing out these aerosols to the same extent. So this is a lifesaving intervention. We need to introduce it now in New Zealand. - Thank you so much for your time. Professor Michael Baker, always grateful for your insights and helping keep us safe. Kia ora. - Thank you. - Thank you. Stay with us. We're back after the break. The Black Caps being amazing was pretty much the only thing our politicians could agree on in the Chamber this week, with all the usual pot shots being taken. Here's Finn Hogan with the week that was in Wellington. - It was weirdly warm and fuzzy for a while in Wellington this week, with the House united congratulating our recently crowned cricketing champs. - Victory over India in the World Championship final at Southampton should be recorded as one of our greatest-ever sporting victories. - But it didn't last long. - I think New Zealanders can see rubbish when they see it, and I think they can say it tonight. - The PM was of course pressed over the mystical electric ute. - If Toyota electric utes did exist, would it be legitimate to use them on the bridge recently announced by the government? - Mr Speaker, look ` on the one point` on the one hand, I do want to applaud the ACT party for finally agreeing that actually, climate change exists. - (LAUGHS) - That's a vast improvement on where you were 10 years ago. - And Judith Collins wanted to get in on the action, but the speaker was busy fixing Seymour's fashion. - Can you start my time again, please? - Oh, sorry. It's` - Can you please start my time again, Mr Speaker? - Right. Um, yes. Yes. We'll just wait till that damn noise` well, first of all we'll wait for David Seymour to tuck his shirt in. - Yeah, the Nats might want him gone, but apparently Seymour feels closer to Mallard than ever. - Oh, well, thank you, Mr Speaker. On behalf of ACT, I'd like to congratulate you on becoming the Father of the House. Um, my question is to the Prime Minister. - I'm tempted to say 'Grandson' or something, but just keep going. - (LAUGHTER) - All righty, Granddad. - (LAUGHTER) - He started it. - Yes, recess is on the horizon, but we'll still see this peculiar political family dysfunctionally run the country next week. - And we're back with our panel ` John Tamihere, Bernie O'Donnell and Maria Slade. Thanks for your time again, guys. COVID ` have we dodged another COVID bullet, do you think, Maria? - Well, we have, it would seem, in Wellington. Uh, can't feel too much sympathy for the Wellingtonians, I'm sorry. - (LAUGHS) Being an Aucklander. - How many lockdowns is it we've been through? But, yes, I'm` look, they did what they had to do, you know? New Zealand's in a very vulnerable position at the moment, because we haven't rolled out the vaccine that far yet. So for the next three to four months, this kind of thing is probably going to keep happening. - OK. - And, you know` Unless we completely lock down with Australia again, and I can't see that going on. So we are in a bit of a vulnerable position, so we need to keep doing the right thing. - Bernie, have you noticed any complacency creeping in your community? I mean, because your community` really, I mean, it's been at the forefront before in South Auckland, but now that it's all been calm for 100 days, and... - No, no. We've prioritised it to make sure that it's front and centre for our people so there'd be no complacency. But we shouldn't be surprised that this happened, given the pressures on the border, on the tourism industry, and what` and so we should have seen this coming. - Yeah. - The only difference is now it's escala` is COVID with the vaccination sort of restrictions is interesting, and that should be an opportunity for us to continue to drive our people... - OK. - ...to get vaccinated. - So, on the vaccinations ` John Tamihere, you run a vaccination centre at Waipareira Trust, do you not? - Yeah. - And how are you finding`? Is there enough demand and is there enough supply? - Oh, there's more than enough demand. There's not enough supply. - Right. - I think we're all aware of that. What we just need to understand is when that supply line is` how big that pipe is going to be, when it's going to increase, we, um, can ramp up to do another 400 to 500 vaxes a day. - What are you doing right now? - Around 550. - So you could double? - Yeah, well, we've got the opportunity to do that. And... This is across the country. So... But remember this ` there's a context here. We've` This is the biggest operation ever undertaken in New Zealand's history outside the Second World War ` as New Zealand, Incorporated ` and we don't produce any vaccines here. We have to import them. - Yeah. - Melbourne producers and a whole range of other things. So that's the context. We have got four to five months, as Maria says, to just keep our discipline, our organisation for one another ripe. - Yeah, so, 'Can we hold on for that long?' is the question as a country. - Yeah. - You know, can we just, you know, scan and... you know, not travel? - Oh, I think most Kiwis are on board, more or less, with the idea. You know, um... Poss` I did hear one commentator saying the other day that the lockdown that Auckland did in February was probably an overreaction but they've done the same thing in Wellington this time around, but it's the Delta variant... - Yeah. - ...so probably it wasn't an overreaction. - Right. - So, you know, it's a real judgement-call kind of territory, really. - OK. Just quickly, one last topic. Todd Muller, one-time leader of the National Party ` for a very short period of time ` is leaving Parliament. Seems to have been a bit of a hard push from Judith Collins, Maria. - Storm in a teacup, I think. - Oh, really? (CHUCKLES) - Well, you know, um... he talked to a journalist, which politicians do all the time, and, OK, maybe he said a few things he shouldn't have said, and, you know, he wasn't being a bit of a team player by criticising one of his colleagues, but really, you know, worse things have been done. I don't know. Were they are waiting for an opportunity to get rid of him? JT, I don't know. What do you think? - (LAUGHTER) - Well, yeah, JT, you've got a bit` - Oh, I've got a bit of experience with that. But, look, I'm` - (LAUGHTER) - Look, I think they're in a difficult position as an opposition party. They've got a prime minister that's hugely popular, and they're making... actually making decisions, whether you like them or not. And that's the first time since '96. So they're taking a lot of water on in National, and they're not bailing well, and that's the sort of context that they're in. - Yeah. But just` So, do you think that just because taking a more` a tougher line? So, we've seen Nick Smith go, you know, and then Todd Muller go for talking to a journalist. What do you think, Bernie? - That's not new. As long as you're performing poorly in the polls, you're always going to get that dynamic. Look what happened with Labour after John Key. During John Key, they went through four leaders. I can't remember them. I'll cheat it. - (LAUGHTER) - Phil Goff, David Shearer, Cunliffe... - And...? - ...Andrew Little. - Oh, well done. - To get to Jacinda. - Yeah. - Some would say they had five guys at it before they chose a woman. But what I'm saying, though, is that it's, um... if you perform badly in the polls, you're up against a strong Labour Party government ` and, as JT says, they have the mandate to make decisions; there's no negotiations ` it doesn't surprise me that they're struggling. - OK. And we've got Harete Hipango back in because Nick Smith's gone, but... obviously, that seems to be causing some dissension within the caucus there, doesn't it? - Yeah. - Well, in terms of the spending irregularities, again, it seemed quite minor. What was it, a sofa and a TV? - A sofa and TV, yeah. - For the office. You know... - Look, it's a` Look, you're finding it hard to talk about National, right? - (LAUGHS) - If we` We're plumbing the depths when we're starting to talk about a sofa and a TV. So I` You know` - (INDISTINCT SPEECH, LAUGHTER) - Yeah, particularly when we've got COVID on the border and, you know, you've got major housing crisis and the like. And so, you know, Kiwis ` rightly so ` are really starting to focus on those sorts of issues, and... This` In the beltway, this conversation might be OK over a few beers and a few wines. - Yeah? - Maybe a Lemon and Paeroa. But the point is that's about it as well. - That's about it. So in the broader context, irrelevant. - It's irrelevant. - And that's the problem for National at the moment, isn't it? - Yeah, it is. - All right. Going to leave it there. JT, Bernie, Maria, thank you so much for your time today. - Thank you. - And that is all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching. Nga mihi` From Tova in Wellington (CHUCKLES) and me in Auckland, nga mihi nui. We'll see you again next weekend. Captions by Kristin Williams, Maeve Kelly and Jessie Puru. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021