- Today on Newshub Nation ` He Puapua and race relations at a crossroads. Rawiri Waititi joins us live. With just 8% of us fully vaccinated, Chris Hipkins defends the rollout. And Simon Bridges on hate speech and why he'd make a better Justice Minister than Kris Faafoi. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021. - Tena tatou katoa. I'm Simon Shepherd. Ko i nga pitopito korero i te Whare Paremata ` in political news this week ` a Christchurch Oranga Tamariki facility has been closed after leaked footage showed a staff member throwing a child to the ground and putting him in a headlock. All current staff have been put on leave, and the agency's promised to move towards smaller, home-like facilities. The government's proposed solution to local council's crumbling water infrastructure is to take away control and create four separate entities. Some councils are happy with the plan, while others, like Auckland, are keen to hold on to infrastructure they've invested billions of dollars in. And iwi are being consulted over how New Zealand should meet its obligations under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People. It comes after a month of criticism from National and ACT, who say the government's failing to be transparent about the He Puapua report, that sets out a roadmap to co-governance. Well, the controversial He Puapua report was written as part of the process to fulfilling our commitment to the UN. Authored by an independent group, it recommends a refocus on rangatiratanga, Maori self-determination. It also reignited claims it is the road to separatism. Well, to discuss this, joining me now is Maori Party co-leader Rawiri Waititi. Tena koe. - Morning. Tena koe. - Thanks for your time. Morning. So, He Puapua says by 2040, governments should be sharing power with Maori more fairly. What does that look like? - Well, it looks like the true intent of what the Tiriti o Waitangi was in the first place. And so, Article One was allowing for kawanatanga ` not sovereignty, not ownership, but custodianship and governance. - Right. - (CLEARS THROAT) Article Two was about tino rangatiratanga. And so, we haven't` (CLEARS THROAT) we haven't been able to align in that particular space yet. And the third part was about mana orite, which was to be treated as equal citizens in this country. - OK. - And so I think` We are having, I think, a mature and adult conversation about actually what was the true intent of the Treaty of Waitangi ` and the Whakaputanga, 1835 ` and I'm sure we can have that and move to the right direction. - All right. We'll work out whether we're mature enough to have that conversation in a moment. Do you think that some of this is, generally, already happening? I mean, like management of DOC estates, kura, Kohanga Reo, papakainga, even the establishment of Maori health authorities. So there's co-governances already there? - Well, I think... (SIGHS) constitutional change doesn't mean trying to fit Rangi's foot into Cinderella's slipper. - CHUCKLES: OK. - This is about a constitutional transformation where we can sit around the table together and actually look at, 'What does tino rangatiratanga for Maori look like?' And what it doesn't look like is working within a Westminster system... - Right. So you're saying that` - ...to find solutions to problems that have been created by that system. - OK, so you're saying the examples that I just listed are` like, you know, they're just piecemeal, they're Band-Aids, rather than looking at the whole system? - Oh, I wouldn't say they're Band-Aids, but there needs to be ` where's the development from there, and then how do we start moving Maori into being more in control of their own destiny and in control of their own oranga? - Mm. - And I think` You know, the UN Declaration` And I just want to acknowledge Pite, Pita Sharples, and I want to acknowledge the National Party of that time, who saw the foresight of that particular bill. - But they signed up to the` - And now the Labour Party have seen, 'Actually, we need to start implementing this,'... - OK. - ...and so we're quite happy, as the Maori Party, that everybody else has picked this up. - CHUCKLES: OK. So, does He Puapua give you the roadmap? Is that`? It you look at He Puapua, is that what you want? - Well, He Puapua only came out yesterday. We're talking about, um... um, basing our transformation in terms of constitution on the founding documents of this country ` Te Whakaputanga, Declaration of Independence, 1835... - Yeah. - ...Tiriti o Waitangi in 1840; and then we've also had the Matike Mai report that's been out for a few years now. - About constitutional reform? - That's right, about constitutional reform. And I think, like I said, we need to have an adult and mature conversation about what that looks like moving forward. - Let's talk about some concrete examples from He Puapua. It suggests an upper house of parliament which has a power-sharing arrangement ` 50/50 Maori/non-Maori representation. What do you think of an upper house like that? - Um... Oh, well, look, we need to` - I don't think you like it. - We need to tease that out a little bit more, about what that might look like. In the... In the Matike Mai report, also talks about a tripartite type of relationship, where tino rangatiratanga is acknowledged for Maori; where kawanatanga's also acknowledged... - Yeah? - ...and then there is this` the joining of the two in the third part of that` - In the middle. OK. But in your maiden speech, you went further than an Upper House. You said... You` In fact, you demanded a Maori parliament. - That's right. - You stand by that? - Yes. - All right? OK. - That's absolutely different to having an upper house. - That is right. So that's a separate parliament, right? - We want to be in total control of our sovereignty. Yes, that's right. - How would that work? And would it be democratically elected or would it be appointed` representatives appointed, iwi or hapu? - Well, even` You hear words like 'co-governance' and 'co-design' and things like that. Well, actually we want to design, and we want the government to now align, because if we are designing, we're not` we're not the... We're not going to create solutions; we are the solutions to many of the dysfunctions that the state has created... - Sure. - ...amongst our people. And so we want our own sovereignty, which is tino rangatiratanga... - Yeah, I understand that. - ...which Article Two promised us. - Yep. OK. I understand that's been promised, as you say, but what does it look like? I mean, can you give me an example of how, in your mind, a Maori parliament would look? - Well, look at the Tuhoe Settlement. That was a co-governance. - Mm. - That was Tuhoe sovereignty. And so the transition of assets back to Tuhoe will show how, actually, this can work, and that` and Tuhoe's probably an example of how they... they have been able to negotiate within the system to be able to come up with their own... well, their own sovereign solutions to the problems. - Right. OK. And so if... if a Maori parliament` if a member of Maori parliament is selected, not elected, how are they going to be held accountable? Are they just going to be held accountable to their own iwi or hapu? - Well, that's exactly right, because we've` that's how it's always been. Before` Before the arrival of Pakeha to this country, we were answerable to ourselves. And so (CHUCKLES) this is just a realignment of being undisturbed of our taonga, of our possessions. And so this is what we are saying is that we can have an adult conversation about this, but let's honour the first document. So, He Puapua came out yesterday. - Yeah. - Let's honour the first document, that's been here for over 180 years. - OK. Well, first` Let's just get rid of He Puapua for the moment. Do you think the government buried He Puapua? - Oh, well, they've said that they're not going to use that as the roadmap... - Yeah, that's right. - ...but they want to go out and do some more consultation. - Yeah. Are you happy with that? - My concern would be the wider New Zealand, um... Because this is what happens in partnership. - Mm. - So, partnership is democracy; democracy is majority rules, and so we lose out again. And so shouldn't indigenous peoples be coming up with indigenous solutions... - Yeah? - ...to their oranga? Why would you leave it to a majority, then, to decide the fate of indigenous peoples? Because that's what's been happening all over the world... - So you're saying that`? - ...for many, many years. - In the consultation process the government has outlined this week, it's going to talk to iwi first, and then the wider consultation period. - Mm-hm. - Do you believe that the wider consultation period should not happen? - The wider consultation period and the process usually dominates what, actually, indigenous peoples want, and that's what happens all over the world. - So do you think that your voice will get lost again? - Well, it gets lost everywhere. It gets lost everywhere. We've had to take a racist policy within councils that did the same thing around Maori wards. And so this is what happens in a democracy, where people say it's fair, but actually not` it's not fair against indigenous peoples because, like I said, the majority rules. - OK. So, well, yeah, let's talk about that, because the critics of He Puapua say that it recommends a political system based on race rather than the democratic principle of everybody being equal. So you say to them, 'Forget that` Forget that'? I mean, that it's not how we should be based? - Well` No, I think the country should be having a conversation about being a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa, and a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa has the mana ` equal mana ` of tangata whenua and tangata tiriti. And so, tangata whenua and tangata tiriti is a, um... is the birth, I think, of a true Tiriti-centric Aotearoa ` tangata tiriti being non-Maori who are committed to Te Tiriti o Waitangi... - Right. - ...righting the wrongs of yesterday and looking forward to a more positive and prosperous Aotearoa. - And a more equitable one? That's what you`? - And a more equitable one. - OK. But some people` the critics say it's the road to separatism, going down this road. - Well` - What do you say to them? I mean, that's been the argument of National and` - We've been on the road to separatism for 180 years. - Yeah. - And so if we look at a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa, I think we could probably be the best nation in the world, heading down this track ` is that you've got tangata whenua, tangata tiriti equally making decisions, equitably making decisions for our people and then actually moving New Zealand ` which seems to be` everybody thinks it's in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere ` - (LAUGHS) - and realigning it back into Polynesia, into Te Poronehia. - OK. So, we've seen the political debate and the political arguments from like National and ACT about separatism, but what about the public themselves? Do you think they're more on board with this than the political opposition? - Absolutely. There is a generation of tangata tiriti on the rise. And this is a young, intelligent generation that know the injustices of the past but are committed to working towards a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa. And` - Right. So you're` Are you positive? - I'm absolutely positive... - OK. - ...that that's happening. I feel that when I go into the universities to talk; I feel that when I go into even mainstream schools. - Mm. - But even those types of words ` 'mainstream', 'general', 'role', all those types of things ` it actually puts Maori in second place, because you're not mainstream and you're not the general public; you're Maori. - Mm. - And so we've got to start looking at tangata tiriti, tangata whenua, and start using the narrative that our people intended this country to be. - OK. When you see the Opposition criticising, say, the notion of partnership and power-sharing with Maori, does it make you look back, wonder and say, 'Well, why did the Maori Party get into bed 'with the National Party in the first place, and how long they could govern like that?' I mean, does it disappoint you? - (LAUGHS) Well, look, this is` this is the system that we're currently in ` it's the Westminster system, and our people have tried to manipulate and work in the system for a long, long time. - OK` - But I think it's time for us to start looking at some new systems where it's more equitable and more equal for indigenous peoples here in this country. - OK. Do you`? Does that mean at the next election, you could rule out working with National or ACT as the Maori Party? - Well, at the moment, I wouldn't work with them at all. - OK. - Just with` The rhetoric that's coming out of those particular parties don't align. They don't align with us. - OK. - We're not saying that Maori don't, um... that we don't look at working with anybody. You know, we've got to make sure that their policies, their principles align with ours. - OK. All right. Just quickly, hate speech ` you've called for a joint police task force into what you say is the rise in hate speech against Maori. But the hate speech laws have been proposed now. Does that address your concerns? - Uh, no, it doesn't, because the law hasn't been implemented, and this type of rhetoric and propaganda has been driven by the National and ACT Party, which is` I believe which has brought rise to this more... racial disharmony in this country. - Right. So you're saying that National and ACT have sort of, you know, incited... - Well, they've fuelled it, absolutely. - ...they've fuelled it, that sort of hate speech? - Absolutely. - Hate speech against Maori? - Well, here's the difference` Absolutely. So, when you're using words like 'separatism' and 'apartheid' ` you talk to people who have lived in those regimes and you tell me how much love was in there and whether it was freedom of speech. That was hate speech. When you're talking about apartheid and you look at what happened in South Africa and places like that ` even America itself, you know, where they had separatism ` those are not very nice words to be using and enforcing on to indigenous peoples. We do not` Those words do not belong to us and nor do those ideologies. - So are you denying their opportunity to use those kinds of words, or do you deny their opportunity to actually just raise those kinds of questions? - Well, it's hard for you to use those words against indigenous peoples who have had to live through regimes like apartheid and separatism. - Mm. - And so` Absolutely. That creates, um... uh... a space for people then to start working their way` working their narrative against indigenous peoples... - OK. - ...and in Aotearoa, it's tangata whenua. - All right. So, given what you've experienced since you've been in Parliament, has it been a culture shock for you? - Absolutely. And so, you're in the public face, and what you do is you get` you do get hate speech, and you do get, um... - Because you walked out of parliament saying Judith Collins was asking too many racist questions. - Well, the thing is you can't call anybody racist in Parliament, but you're allowed to... to say racist things. - Right. - And so when you're using 'separatism' and 'apartheid' against an indigenous peoples, you know, that sounds like a... an oxymoron to me. - Are you enjoying yourself in Parliament? - I am. (LAUGHS) - CHUCKLES: OK. All right. - When you` In your maiden speech, you took your tie off ` you called it a colonial noose ` and now ties aren't compulsory. So you made an immediate change. - Mm. I've got to ask you ` I mean, what is the next change that you want to implement? - Well, the next change is, I think, we need to start looking at how Maori can participate more equally and equitably in that particular space. - OK. - In a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa. - All right. - Not in a democracy, because, like I said, democracy is the majority rules, and Indigenous people ` especially Maori, at 16% of the population in this country ` will lose out and will sit in second place again. - Tena koe. Thank you for your time, Rawiri Waititi... - Kia ora. - ...co-leader of the Maori Party. If you've got a news tip, get in touch. We are on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz E whai ake nei, we dissect the week's political news with our panel. Plus ` vaccination chaos? Chris Hipkins from Parliament. About 8% of New Zealanders are fully vaccinated. That number puts us near the bottom of the OECD and miles away from being able to open our borders to the world, let alone to all the kiwis who'd love to come home for Christmas. I spoke to our COVID-19 Response Minister, Chris Hipkins, and asked him first why so many young people are unexpectedly hearing they're in Vaccination Group 3. - It's ultimately the GP practices that are making that distinction. So in some cases, someone might have come in with a chest infection some time ago. They may have even forgot they even had one previously. And they could have been included in Group 3 for that reason by their GP practice. To put that into context, if you take Auckland, for example, they sent out 117,000 notifications, and they've had 12 calls from people questioning, 'Am I in the right group?' So overall... - Yeah, overall, do you have that data? Do you know how many people have been wrongly contacted? - Well, no, but, I mean, DHB by DHB. I haven't got every DHB, but, I mean, the Auckland metro region ` 117 people sent out a notification, and 12 people have queried that. - 117,000, and 12 people. OK. So you're saying that's a small number? - That doesn't suggest that it's a hugely widespread problem. - You can see how it's distressing for people who have been sitting around waiting to be asked and get their invitation, like the over-65s, the 80-, 90-year-olds, and 20-year-olds are getting vaccination invitations. - The advice that I've had is that people will have been getting that because their GP practices advised that those people should be eligible under Group 3. - Do you know how many Group 3s haven't actually been invited yet? - Well, the problem is we don't have an absolute number for who's in Group 3, because if you think, for example, about whether someone has an underlying health condition which means they should be in Group 3, the only people who will really know that, other than the people themselves, are their primary care practice, so their doctor's surgery, for example. - So given that, are you still confident that everybody is going to be given the chance to get vaccinated before the end of July, despite all these wrong data that you're finding? - Everyone in Group 3 should have now received something that will say, 'You're in Group 3. 'You can expect to hear from us over the next couple of weeks with an invitation to book in.' - There is a chance that some people could slip through the system if the data with the GP is incorrect. - That's right, and that's one of the reasons why we've got some additional safeguards in there, like an 0800 number where people can get in contact. - All right, let's move on to the border. Do you know how many unvaccinated border workers there are at the front line? - We've got very high vaccination rates. So if you look at all of the people in the border workforce testing register, for example ` so these are being people who are being tested regularly ` at the moment, vaccination sits at about 86%. Not everyone in that group is currently required to be vaccinated. Of the people who are required to be vaccinated, no one's doing that work unless they've had their vaccination. So the highest-risk people ` so that's the government workers who are greeting people when they come off planes, for example, the people working in a managed isolation ` they have all been vaccinated. - Have we not been given a figure of 1600 unvaccinated border workers? - That includes a lot of people who are working at the ports. There's still some work around the air crews, for example. Some of those air crews will be people who'll be working Trans-Tasman, in the Trans-Tasman safe travel zone. So overall, the highest risk group have been well covered. But we're working on` we want to get 100% coverage for everybody. So we're working on chasing up those who haven't. - So do you know why, of those 1600, that they haven't? Is it because they're anti-vaxxers or they're vaccine hesitant? Do you know why? - We know that the ports seem to have a higher concentration of people who haven't yet had a vaccination who've been offered one. - Why the ports? - So I think` Well... I don't know why that is, but we know that there was some hesitancy in some of those workforces. What we found is that where we've sent it in medical professionals to speak more intensively to them, to explain the vaccination, to explain the science behind it, generally, that reluctance has started to disappear a bit. - Sure, but isn't that a concern, though, given that one slip will close down the whole country? - Look, I think employers also have a role to play here, and so my message to all those employers is ` please be working with your employees. If they're working at the border, they haven't been vaccinated yet, please make sure you're following up with them and encouraging them to get vaccinated and enabling them to get vaccinated as well. - All right. Let's move on. Last year, the Roche Simpson report said that all efforts should be made to introduce saliva testing as soon as possible. And you haven't done that yet. Why not? - The government signed off on the approvals for that a couple of months ago. - Yeah. - I am frustrated that it seems to be taking too long to actually get that underway. Workers should be being offered the opportunity ` so those who are the weekly testing cycle. We approved, a couple of months ago now, that they should have the option of being more frequently tested using saliva testing rather than the nasal swabs. They'd still have to do nasal swabs, but less frequently. - But what is the hold-up? - So I am frustrated that that's not happening. - Do you know why? Have you asked why? - I don't have a good enough` in my view, a good enough answer for why that's taking so long. I would like to see that moving quicker. - When do you want it in? Just give us a time. When do you want that being done? - Well, there are no hurdles at a government end for that, so the money is there, the approvals are there. - So who's holding it up? - Everything is there, ready to go. - Is it the DHBs not spending that money? - It could be partly DHBs, partly employers, partly employees. We have had some suggestions that some employers, when given the choice, have said, 'No, I'd rather stick with getting the once-a-week test rather than doing it more frequently.' - Can I move on to MIQ facilities, and whether fully vaccinated Kiwis will be able to bypass that and come home for Christmas, for example, and not spend two weeks in MIQ? - I don't think you'll see big changes at the border before Christmas. I think we're still likely to have the vast majority of people coming through the border coming into managed isolation for a period of two weeks this year. Early next year, there may be some further changes there, but I don't think that's going to happen any time in the next six months or so. - What about a purpose-built facility for MIQ? The Australians are doing it, and this pandemic is going to be around for, like, three to five years. - I think we are likely to have an MIQ capability over the medium to longer term. I think we are likely` it might not be at the scale that we have now, but I think we're likely to still need to have that ability to do that. - But a purpose-built facility? - We'll be canvassing all of the options. It might be that we buy one or two of our existing facilities and do more work to convert them so that they are more fit for purpose. We're looking at all of those options at the moment. - Let's talk about the vaccination rates. Some nurses are reportedly getting six doses out of a Pfizer vial, while others are getting seven. Are you confident that people are getting enough of their dose, if they're having seven out of a vial? Because Medsafe recommended or approved six doses. Sounds a bit dodgy. - No, they are using special syringes to make sure that they're getting the required quantity of vaccine into people's arms. In some cases, you know, the vials can have slightly more solution in them, and so they're able to do seven doses rather than six. - So you're confident that everybody is getting the recommended dose? - Absolutely. Everybody is getting the recommended dose. - OK. You've also announced that you're expanding the list of people who can actually vaccinate people. It used to be trained nurses. Now it's going to be retired or overseas trained health workers and healthcare assistants. So what is a healthcare assistant? Is that the receptionist? - It's people like the Kaiawhina Workforce who we know are available there to help. They're people who do, sort of, nursing-like duties, although they are not fully registered nurses. So they'll be coming into the workforce as well. Of course, those people who have different qualifications will still be working under the supervision of our fully qualified, fully trained vaccinators. - So what kind of training does a healthcare assistant have, and how long is the training to actually become a vaccinator? - Look, that's probably more a question for the Director General of Health, rather than for me. They do have some training, and they will obviously be getting training specific to the vaccine. So there's a specific degree of training required before someone who's not an otherwise qualified person ` so not a nurse and so on ` they have to do some specific training. And of course, any vaccinations they do, they'll be doing them under the supervision of fully qualified and registered people. - OK, and just finally ` it's predicted that we're going to run out of vaccines roughly on the day that the next shipment arrives. It doesn't seem like there's much give in the system, should something go wrong. - Look, we made the decision, knowing that supply was going to be tight, to get as many vaccines into people's arms as possible, to not have them sitting in the freezer just as a contingency. That means that we are going to have a period next week, on Monday and Tuesday, where supply will be tight while we wait for a shipment to arrive, hopefully, according to schedule, early on Tuesday morning. - So is it likely that we're going to have a couple of days of nobody being vaccinated? We've run out? - No, we will have vaccines out there. Vaccines are out there now. So it's not just a question of how many vaccines do we have in the store, but how many are in freezers at all of the places that are doing vaccinations. And there are vaccines out there at the moment. What it does mean, though, is that those places who are doing vaccines, if they go ahead of plan, they won't be able to ring up and say, 'Hey, we've done more people than we expected to. Please send us some more.' Because for a period of about 24 hours, there probably won't be any more to send them. - All right, and at the moment, we're about 8% fully vaccinated. We've gone from front of the queue, as you described it at the end of last year, to, sort of, towards the bottom of the OECD, in terms of fully vaccinated rates. Is that a good look? - Ultimately, the biggest thing that's been holding us back, as you can see, is getting the supplies of vaccines into the country. We did say, in January when we made the decision to switch to a campaign that's based on Pfizer, that we would have to wait longer to get those doses into the country. Pfizer have been very good. They've been delivering what they've said that they would. - You can't speed it up? - Look, we've been doing everything we can to get` we've been doing everything we can to get more in. And Pfizer have been very good to work with. But they were very clear with us when we said that we wanted to just use Pfizer this year, that we would have to wait until the second half of the year to get the bulk of those into the country. - All right. We'll leave it there. Thank you very much for your time, COVID-19 Response Minister Chris Hipkins. All right, up next ` the week's politics with our panel, Chris Finlayson, Professor Tracey McIntosh and Rukuwai Tipene`Allen. Plus ` he's been stabbed and shot at, and that was before he hit the rough and tumble of parliament. Mark Mitchell shares his backstory. former National Government minister, including Minister for Treaty of Waitangi negotiations, Chris Finlayson; Professor Tracey McIntosh and Maori TV political reporter Rukuwai Tipene-Allen. Thank you so much, all of you, for your time this morning. Rukuwai, first, you ` Rawiri Waititi said in that interview that he had a real culture shock when he came into Parliament. - What do you think about that? - I'd absolutely agree. I've been there almost a year now, and I don't think that there's anything further away from a... A Maori lifestyle. There's nothing in the place that really represents you ` you don't see your face, the structures in the place don't represent anything that you believe in or anything that you even learnt. I'm not sure that anyone knows. - Have you seen any change since you've been there? - I mean, the ties are gone. - (LAUGHTER) - The ties are gone. - You can thank Rawiri for that. Not that you had to wear one, but, yeah. - There's more moko in Parliament. I think reporters are generally asking more Maori-focused questions now, which is great. I think when I first started, it felt like you almost had to fight. You knew that the questions you were gonna ask were probably going to be the only questions that related to Maori or Maori issues. - Right. - Now it seems topical. It's kind of a cool thing to do, to ask Maori questions, which is great. - All right. Tracey, Rawiri Waititi wants to bring a more Tiriti-centric approach in Parliament. That's what he's talking about. But he also wants a separate Maori parliament as well. Was he sort of clear on how that would work? - Well, I think what he's saying is that we have to know how it works. And he talked about co-design, he talked about those elements, but I think really, a much more interesting way of thinking about that is around, what does co-determination look like? How do we determine our futures? And I think there, you've got that place for tangata whenua, ensuring that there is a rangatira space, but also recognising that tangata tariti space. But co-determination, for me, I think, is much more significant than just thinking about what co-design might look like. - Chris Finlayson. I mean, you've been part of Parliament for many years, and he's talking about the fact that, you know, in a democracy, Maori lose out because they're the minority voice, even in this consultation process around the declaration of the UN Human Rights. What do you say to that? - Oh, I think there's a lot of faux consultation ` people say they are consulting not just Maori, but interest groups. And it's always` at the level they are, it's always rushed. It's always mucked up. So there's a lot of` He makes a good point about some of that stuff. Look, I have to say, I'm very interested in constitutional reform. I don't think a separate parliament really is a starter. But we had an option` - Jacinda Ardern's ruled it out already. - Yeah, we had an opportunity, and it was when Jim Bolger was Prime Minister, and I was speaking to him about it the other night ` we really should have gone for a senate instead of this loopy MMP system we have. And there was a lot of discussion about it, but then it sort of fell by the wayside. - So, what do you think? I mean He Puapua report suggests an upper house with a 50/50 Maori/non-Maori split. What do you think? - Well, I believe in the principle of bicameralism, and when we abolished the Legislative Council in 1950, there was always going to be a replacement, but they could never work out what it meant. Let's have the debate. I'm quite relaxed about that. I mean, the report was written by Claire Charters, really bright person, used to work with me at Bell Gully. It's a think piece. It's supposed to stimulate debate. Instead of getting all neurotic about it, let's have the debate about various things. - A good point you made there. So, Tracey McIntosh, what do you make of the debate around, you know, He Puapua and the way it has and hasn't been released? - You know, I absolutely agree with Chris. I mean, Claire led, you know, a group who are really thinking, really reflecting on, drawing on their expertise. Claire is an excellent thinker and has both, you know, national and international background in terms of that thinking. So that response to it in many ways is a response that we've seen ` it's that going back to the way we respond to anything that's seen as Maori, that use of 'separatism' in that way, in many ways, is just to close down debate. - Well, it's not just Maoris. Whenever you have something fresh and novel, there's often an attempt to shut it down. Years ago, I was Minister for the Arts, and someone published a think piece for me on the future of orchestras and recommended the NZSO be turned into a city orchestra, and I said, 'No way.' - Oh, right. (LAUGHS) - But, you know, who cares? That was one person's opinion. It was not government policy. And there are lots of think pieces that emerge in the course of government, and don't worry about it. - OK. Oh right. (CHUCKLES) So, Rukuwai, I mean, what do you make of how the debate has shaped up in the last month? - I think people are showing a lot of fear over ` exactly ` a think piece. This is almost the worst I've seen. It shouldn't be a conversation that we're scared to have anyway. This dates back to Te Tiriti, to 1835. This is a long` This conversation has been happening a really long time. - Yeah. Yeah. And Rawiri made that point. But how has the government responded to having He Puapua, I mean, presented to it, Nanaia Mahuta didn't release it last year during the Covid year. - I mean, not releasing it wasn't very smart. - Yeah. - That was a very dumb idea. - And Willie Jackson's not here to talk about, you know, conversations. - Willie Jackson's not here to talk about it, but also, to pull it up and start using language around it that really doesn't reflect the intent of the report. - What are you talking about there? - When we're talking about separatism, when we're talking` when we're using that kind of language in the House. This is exactly how Chris put it ` this is a think piece. This is just to develop conversation and debate around what it might look like ` we shouldn't be weaponising a think piece. - Right. 'Weaponising a think piece' ` is that how you would describe it? - Well, I think it just` it's just that that response and reaction... I guess, and that's the difference that I'd see with the orchestra example is that this is so deeply embedded. You know, it's a particular rhetoric. It's a particular shortcut which is around the way that you can actually put forward quite racist ideas, but in a way that is just so acceptable and normative. - OK. I'm going to move on to somebody who's been accused of putting forward those racist ideas, Judith Collins. Chris Finlayson, you've been very critical of the National Party this week. Your quote ` I did have it in front of me, but ` you said it's like self-destruction of a brand that you've never seen before. Do you stand by that? - Oh, look what happened ` I was having a discussion with a journalist about Te Uruwera, and she said, 'Oh, 'what do you make of your of your party?' And five minutes later, I stopped raving. So, look, I admit that, as Grant Robertson said, there wasn't a hell of a lot of empathy there and the subtlety of a sledgehammer. But the point I was making was twofold. One ` and I'm reflecting the views of many, many people in the National Party ` they are sick of the division, are sick of the leaks. They have to realise that they are a team. And once they start acting like a team, they'll do very well. So that's a sort of a self-evident point. The second point I made, uh, was related to the decision by the board to make certain candidate selections that have revolted people up and down the country. And you'd be surprised at the comments that have been made to me since I had my little, sort of` - Like what? Can you give us an example? - 'Thank God someone said it.' - Right. - Because people were very, very angry that the brand was harmed by some selections that were very poor. - Was that a National Party member saying that to you, or was that actual MPs? - Oh, National Party members, National Party former MPs have spoken to me. No one's got a monopoly on wisdom. And the fact that you go into caucus doesn't mean to say, uh, you are automatically the know-all on questions of politics. People want culture change. They want people to listen to what John Key said at the last conference ` if you want to leak, leave the party. - Right. - They want people to act like a team. So pretty self-evident. - So ` and just really quickly ` do you think this is how you envisage Judith Collins' leadership going? - No, it's not a question of Judith Collins' leadership. It's a question of culture in the caucus and the board being responsible for some atrocious candidate selection. - All right. Well, I'm gonna leave it there for the moment. Thank you for your words. Chris Finlayson, Tracey McIntosh and Rukuwai Tipene-Allen, thank you for your time on the panel. - Tena koe. - E whai ake nei, National's Simon Bridges on why he hates the proposed hate-speech laws. Plus ` he's been shot at, bereaved, stabbed and fought in Iraq ` it's Mark Mitchell's backstory. He's been stabbed by a samurai sword, fought ISIS on the rooftops in Iraq, and lost a treasured brother. National's Mark Mitchell is now the member for Whangaparaoa, and he's been a leadership contender more than once. Finn Hogan sat down with him to hear his backstory. - So, where I was born was National Women's Hospital. Growing up on an East Coast base, I went to Sunnynook Primary School Most of your time, if it wasn't spent at home, was spent down at Mairangi Bay Beach. When I was born, my father was still in the RNZAF as a P-3 Orion pilot. So I spent the first two or three years of my life as an air force brat on Whenuapai Air Force Base. I couldn't ask for a better dad, and as a young guy growing up, I mean, he was my hero. He's the sort of guy that taught me that the things that are really valuable in life are often hard to get, and you gotta work hard for them. And he sort of instilled those values in me. My mum is someone, to this day, that will take the orphans in. And she's just got a huge heart ` probably sometimes to her detriment. LAUGHS: I was a nightmare for my parents. But I wanted to go out there and see the world, so at 15, I left school, and I kind of started on my pathway. When I joined the police, I was in Rotorua and I'd been successful in getting on the dog section. I turned up to the office, went out there. We sort of met the Czar ` there's a whole story there. He was a very ` if Czar was running in a pack, he'd be the alpha-alpha male. He and I hit it off, and so when I graduated wit Czar and our end-of-course report said, 'If these two don't perform operationally, the handler should be replaced, not the dog.' LAUGHS: Those who appraised the operation, they recognised just how good he was. Probably the toughest moment for me ` this young guy, he was suffering serious mental health issues. He'd strapped a samurai sword on to his hand, and he'd gone back up to Rotorua Hospital with the intent of going to the psychiatric unit, and beheading some nursing staff there. I saw an opportunity and thought there was a chance to make the arrest. And I released Czar, and of course Czar went in and grabbed him. And before I could reach him, he'd brought the sword down and stabbed Czar down through between the shoulder blades. He'd brought the sword out, it glanced off the ballistic vest and went up through my right arm. And of course, Czar was pretty critically injured. I thought I'd lost him. I couldn't see how he was gonna survive it. VOICE BREAKS: Um... Yeah, it's hard. It was really hard watching him, without a doubt. Um... Sorry. That was, like, 25 years ago, but it still comes rushing back. He was tough, and he recovered, and he went on to be a highly-decorated police dog, so... But I still miss him to this day. When I came into parliament and I made a speech, I made it very clear that I wanted to bring mental health services back into our community and try to make people realise that depression and mental health is something that's not as easy to see, but it's no different to having a broken leg or a broken arm. I lost my brother, who's suffered for many years with manic depression, which is very tough to watch. Yeah, he'd either be the life of the party, or he'd be so bad that he couldn't get himself past the letterbox. And at the end of the day, although he had massive support from his family, and understanding, it was his battle. And so it was really hard for the family to watch it, but in the end, we lost the battle with that. And Sean wrote a long note to the family, (VOICE BREAKS) and swam out... from Mairangi Bay Beach, and we found him on Rangitoto Island the next day. So... He loved the ocean. We were always brought up at the ocean, the sea. So he just went down there and just kept swimming. It was a letter of love to all of his friends, his family. He basically said that he couldn't see a way out, and he felt like he was a burden. SOFTLY: He wasn't. I think he'd be proud to see how far we've come as a country in actually dealing with mental health, but we've got a lot further to go. Without a doubt. So, I decided that I'd leave the Police in 2002, and they were recruiting for` to put and advance team into Iraq. And I effectively spent the next 10 years in the Middle East in a whole variety of different roles. It's extremely challenging, because you saw some of the awful humanitarian abuses that were going on under ISIS. We saw gay men taken to the top of roofs and thrown off roofs. We had self-formed religious police units that were going around and killing people that they felt were not sticking strictly to Sharia Law. It was a very difficult, challenging time. We had a small compound on the edges of An Nasiriyah surrounded by 3000 pretty determined Mahdi militiamen, well-armed. They were just reigning indirect fire on to us, mortars on to us. We had to try and hold that compound for five days. We were really in a position where we were fighting for our lives, and so you find out a lot about yourself in a situation like that. What I found most bizarre about it is that ` we were successful in being able to defend the compound for that five days. I was put on a flight straight back home to New Zealand. Some of my good mates that come around for a barbecue. And how do you explain to people that you've just been in a fairly intense situation where you're doubtful you actually may even survive or get out the other end of it, and all of a sudden, you're back in beautiful New Zealand flipping burgers on the barbeque? So I never spoke about it. I never talked about it because it would just be ` people back home just wouldn't be able to understand or get their head around it, and that would be completely understandable. I decided that I wanted to bring my family home. At that point, it was somewhere that we visited two or three times a year. I did want to get back into public service, but I didn't think I was up to chasing police dogs around (LAUGHS) in the middle of the night any more. I've got a great partner now, Sarah. She was in the Police as well. I just feel very lucky and very fortunate. She's got two great boys, Luke and Billy, and I've got five awesome kids. I got Taylor, Spencer, Sylvie, Jazlin and Nathan. So, of course I was married to Peggy, and I took on Possum's three kids. Gorgeous kids. They lost their dad when they were very young, and I've tried to keep his memory alive for them as much as I can. Because I always felt very strongly, especially when I was overseas and in some pretty tight spots, if something happened to me, I'd like to think that whoever's in my kids' life, they'd keep my memory alive. I've been co-driver for Taylor in the memorial rally for his dad. And I feel hugely honoured that I was able to pick that up for him and have those kids now call me Dad and have that relationship. I guess all of us in life are tested. If you wanna achieve anything, and if you wanna make a positive impact in people's lives, it's hard. It's difficult. Anything worth having in life ` you gotta fight for it. - Mark Mitchell there sharing his backstory. Stay with us. We're back after the break. - Welcome back. And we're back with our panel, Chris Finlayson, Rukuwai Tipene-Allen and Professor Tracey McIntosh. Thank you again for your time. We just saw Mark Mitchell being quite revealing in his backstory. Tracey, does it help to see the background of an MP when it comes to dealing with him and negotiating with them? - I think it's really significant. And actually, it just really talks about just how important context is, how we can see motivations. People go in this to make a change, to make positive change. And I see with that story, how important it is. I've worked a lot in the justice area and actually have had, you know, discussions with Mark around change, transformation when I was part of Te Uepu Hapai Te Ora. And, you know, I've worked with people who are harmed and been harmed, and context is important in all of those elements. - So, that Mark Mitchell, Chris Finlayson, I mean, how is he regarded in terms of the National Party? - Oh, very highly. I regard him as a friend, a really good bloke. And it's a shame he wasn't a Minister Of Defence for longer, because he really got stuck in there and did a good job. - He has thrown his hat into the leadership contendership a couple of times. - Has it been serious? - As Judith says, I'm two leaders ago; I'm irrelevant, so I have no idea about who offered themselves for leadership. But as I've said, the National Party's issues are not with leadership; they're with culture. So if you want me to go into leadership speculation, forget it. I'm not going to. - OK. All right. Well, you've underscored that one. Let's move on to hate speech, then. So, the government's rolled out its hate-speech reforms. Rukuwai, how well is the government selling them? - Not very well at all. I don't think anyone really understands what's going on. And they're almost leaning on Twitter to find an explanation on what it actually means and what changes look like. - That's a bit desperate, relying on Twitter, isn't it? - Yeah, well, I mean, it was a reference in the House as well. So it seems like that kind of desperation is something that's part of this conversation at the moment. I don't think the public really knows what the heck is going on. - OK. Chris Finlayson, you had a point about privacy and hate speech that you wanted to make. - Yeah, I think this is a minefield. And if you're gonna legislate, you've gotta be very careful about how you go about it. There was a hell of a debate in Scotland about whether or not, uh, private conversations in the homes around the dinner table could be criminalised. And so you may recall the story of the little brat in Soviet Russia who pimped on his parents, who made some remarks about Stalin in the home. They were sent off to a gulag, and he got the order of Lenin. Are we going to be moving into that kind of territory? - Well, that's quite an extreme example, though. - Well, it's an extreme example, but in Scotland, they're there. They are talking about criminalising comments that are made in the home around the dinner table. And that is spooky stuff. - Right. But we're not really talking about that here, are we? I mean, Tracey? - What are we talking about? - That's a good point. - Yeah, I think that that is your unclarity is a really important point. For me, the whole, sort of, issue around hate speech, in many ways, reminds me of the anti-smacking bill, so that it puts a whole range of things out there, where there is not sufficient clarity, where we talk about that there's gonna be this heightened criminalisation, that people won't be able to say what they think, that there won't be able to be opinions, that micro aggressions will be criminalised. And many cases, I think what's a much more important element is watch your intent. So if the intent is here, is really looking about issues around more harmonious society, what it means to have higher levels of social cohesion, thinking about the royal commission's report, then there may be a real opportunity there to have a much broader both discussion, debate and education on that level. I'm not surprised that we go to where we go when we talk about these things ` we've seen it before. - Right. OK. - Yeah, it's really interesting, what you said about the anti-smacking law, because John Key and Helen Clark were really smart. They got together, and they said, 'Well, we've gotta make this work.' - Yeah. - And that was the approach that I took to the intelligence reforms` Cos John Key said to Andrew Little, 'Look, if we don't get Labour's sign-on, we're going nowhere.' - So this is a problem at the moment ` we're not having any bipartisanship, are we? - Well, I think that the government should work with the National Party to say ` what exactly was the royal commission wanting to deal with? Let's deal with that, but let's not go too far. - But, look, we're not actually seeing any of that. Are we? We're seeing a real divide between National and Labour. - Absolutely. And I think that that's a great point. There's a lot of space here to actually work together, have a sit-down, have a conversation. What does it look like, what's best for New Zealand? Not just, 'We're Government,' 'We're Opposition,' 'so let's have an argument over it.' - But we have descended into, as you mentioned before, Twitter and the debate about who's a Karen. - Yeah. - I mean, should we be proud of that? - No, we shouldn't. I think what we need to do is take a step back and say, 'OK, we're here to try and develop the best things for New Zealanders,' and so how can we do that? We can do that by having a conversation, for starters. And I think that's exactly what Chris has talked about. We need to step back and say, 'Hey, let's talk about this.' What does hate speech, what do these reforms look like, and how are they gonna work best for New Zealanders? - Cos the royal commission came up with some very sensible suggestions about amendments to the Human Rights Act, and Sir William Young is a very, very capable judge. So let's see what they said, and let's get away from argument by epithet into having a sensible discussion about what the royal commission was really getting at. - And I'm gonna have to leave our discussion right there for the moment. And we're out of time. Thank you so much for your time, Chris Finlayson, Tracey McIntosh, Rukuwai Tipene-Allen. - Thank you. - All right. We've been talking about them this week ` the proposed hate-speech laws did spark some heated political opinion, and the National Party's vowing to repeal them should they get back into power. Jenna Lynch sat down with National Party's Justice spokesperson Simon Bridges and asked him why. - By lowering the thresholds here from incitement to violence, what you're doing is you're creating a society where there's a lot more complaint, a lot more dispute. The police will end up doing a lot more prosecutions. - So do you not support the recommendations of the royal commission? - I would support hate-speech laws that simplify the law at the level of incitement to violence, but not under that. That will over-criminalise a bunch of New Zealanders who may be stupid, who may be saying things that are insulting, but we don't wanna criminalise that. - It's still at the discussion phase ` you're threatening to repeal it before even a draft law has been written. Is this just opposition for opposition's sake? - I think they've made such a hash of it to date that it's better just to scrap this, um, and get back to some of the other proposals in the royal commission document. - Give me one example of something you're afraid of not being able to say any more. - I think it's the example of, let's say, I don't know, a 19-year-old, a 23-year-old who has a brain explosion and says something really, really stupid on Facebook. Maybe it goes viral. And I think we know what will happen if there's this sort of law. There'll be complaints. There'll be people saying cancel him or her. - But what's the stupid thing? - I don't wanna see that sort of society. - What's the stupid thing? - No, no, I'm not gonna go down that` I'm not gonna go down that track. And I'll tell you why ` because, in the end, I'm not the one proposing this law. It's Kris Faafoi and Jacinda Ardern. They can't even give us a sense of the examples. It may be something` mocking Israel Folau. - Was what Israel Folau said hate speech, then? - (SIGHS) It may be stupid, it may be insulting ` it may be all manner of other things for a bunch of New Zealanders, but should he go to jail for, what is it, three years? - Should all gay people go to hell? - That's his belief, based on an interpretation of the Bible. Look, good for him. Do we really wanna send him to jail for that? - You said in the House this week, and I quote, 'All you've got to do is, with a bit of a racial slur or something, insult someone else.' - What racial slur are you talking about? - I'm not gonna do this, but let's take racial slurs. If someone sees something ` maybe they're talking` maybe they're going hammer-and-tongs about white privilege. Maybe they throw Don Brash's name into the equation. Now, I don't want a law that makes that criminal or even possibly or probably makes that criminal. - So you wanna be able to protect people from insulting Don Brash? - If this law passes in the sort of form that Kris Faafoi is talking about, both sides of` and I don't wanna get into this, but the culture war, if you want to put it that way, will rise up. There'll be complaints. There'll be disputes. New Zealanders have been smart enough to steer clear of all that kind of crap. - What racial slur is OK? What racial slur do you want people to be able to use? - No racial slur is OK. But I come back to this very simple point ` if something's wrong, and it's been said, mock it, dispute it, shame it. But let's not put a three-year imprisonment on it. I say you only do that actually if it's going to cause violence out there. - Is displaying gang patches freedom of expression? - There is an argument to be made about that, in terms of the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act ` right now, today, that would be the case. You're right. - You propose banning them. - Absolutely right. And that's still my position. And we both know Kris Faafoi says it in relation to this law. And I say in relation to the gang patches that the New Zealand Bill of Rights Act accepts ` in fact, our jurisprudence in this area accepts that there are reasonable limitations on rights. I accept that in relation to hate speech ` if you're inciting violence, that's wrong. But what I'm also saying to you is actually, you know what? Let's not go too far on that. - So you proposed banning gang patches in public. What about someone wearing a swastika patch on a leather jacket? Is that OK? - You know, at the end of the day, we haven't had examples of that in New Zealand. I mean, under the old law` - Yes, we have. - I despise that. I think that person is a fool, is an idiot; they may possibly be evil, in fact. But, you know, there are reasonable limits. We do wanna live in a free country. I would set the bar on hate speech at inciting violence, not down at insulting, discriminating. To me, that's going too far. - Judith Collins questioned whether calling someone a Karen is hate speech. Is she for real? - Look, she's making a strong point. It's certainly got the media going. I think what Judith was doing and actually what I'm trying to do as well, at the level of detail, as the spokesperson in this area, is make quite clear to New Zealand, hey, you know what? There's a real issue here. - The Prime Minister implied that Judith Collins was a Karen. Is she? - No. - Speaking of free speech, after Judith Collins gagged your caucus, you swiftly post it on Instagram, quote, 'Speaking to the press is a normal, important part of politics.' Let's talk about that timing. - There's nothing to talk about. It's very simple. We've got a new person doing photos. They sent it to me that day. I posted it. I thought it was a cool pic. - It was the day that Todd Muller resigned. It was the day after your 10pm emergency caucus meeting, where she gagged you. Were you making a point? - You are overanalysing things. - Was it an act of defiance against Judith Collins? - Not at all. - The Muller coup of you ` ouch ` when caucus skewered him, was there a level of satisfaction that you got from that? - We don't talk about things in caucus. - I'm not asking about caucus; I'm asking about your feeling about Todd Muller resigning. - Well, you know, if I talk to you about my feelings all the time, we'd have a lot to talk about. I'm not talking about what happened in caucus. - Did you enjoy it? - And I'm not gonna get deep and meaningful with you about these things. - You were rolled when the Nats were at 30. You got 25.6 at the election. 30 looks good. How low can you go before Judith Collins gets rolled? - No, look, I think Judith is secure. I support Judith. - For how long? - She's secure. - She once set 35 as her sacking point. That's been and gone. What's the new sacking point? - Well, no. I'm not gonna get into those things. I don't think it's a question of any of that. - 25? - I support Judith. Clearly, there's been some messy stuff in recent months, there's no getting away from that, but actually, it's the government that's getting a lot wrong, and we need to get into that. - You'd keep her as leader at 23? - Judith is secure in her role. - 20? - How low? OK. He Puapua ` you're one of the very few Maori in your caucus. Why are you so opposed to partnership with the Crown? - The Treaty is important ` I agree; it means partnership ` I agree. And that somehow means co-governance, 50/50 ` that, in the end, is not democratic. - Isn't it just honouring the Treaty? - I don't think that's something that's going to work for most New Zealanders, in fact, most Maori, including myself. I mean, I look at the health proposals, which are more than proposals; in fact, that they are setting out to do ` it means that for me as a Maori man, I get to decide whether I walk in one door, the Maori health system, or another door. Other New Zealanders won't have that. That does not sit well with me. - Simon Bridges there. Well, we talked about Karens just then ` it was the Karen clapback that was heard around the world, with explosive exchanges between the PM and Judith Collins in the House making international headlines. Here's Ben Hogan with the week that was in Wellington. - Well, you can tell it's a recess next week, because this lot have lost the plot. - ...to be premature. - Grandson. Grandson. Just get there, you know? - (LAUGHTER) - David Seymour, question two. - The Finance Minister didn't bother with his own insults this week, instead quoting one of our own panellists at length. - I don't think, ever in my life, I have seen brand destruction as devastating as that. And bear in mind, Chris Finlayson was around when Bill English took National to 21%. So he knows a fair bit about a terminal brand. - But it was this clapback which echoed all the way from the chamber to make international headlines. - Speaker, I also disagree with that statement, and I also, as it happens, disagree with the member statement on Twitter that somehow, it will become illegal to call someone a Karen. That is absolutely incorrect. And I apologise. That means these laws will not protect that member from such a claim. - Watching all this, it's hard to not second Act's Ian McKelvie's question. - Mr Speaker, could I ask you to reflect on whether you think the debate has been constructive in any way? - It's even harder to disagree with Mallard's answer. - Well, I think,... uh... the answer is... no, it hasn't been. - At least it's recess time now, where every Chris and Karen can take a breather, and maybe after, we'll have some actual debating in the debating chamber ` but probably not. Ben Hogan in there. And that's all from us for now. Thank you for watching. Nga mihi nui. And we will see you again next weekend. Captions by Faith Hamblyn, Maeve Kelly and Jessie Puru. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021.