CAPTIONS BY PHOEBE UPTON AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2021. TENA KOUTOU NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY, AN EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH THE ORGANISER OF THE DRUG REHAB LINKED TO THE MONGREL MOB. JACINDA SEEMS TO TRUST ME. WHY WOULDN'T YOU? THE POLICE MINISTER WILL RESPOND, AND WE'LL ASK ABOUT A WEEK OF HIGH PROFILE SHOOTINGS AND GUN CRIMES. THEN ` KIWIS AROUND THE WORLD STILL DEALING WITH COVID-19 DEATH. ON MONDAY, I JUST BURIED A FRIEND, A DOCTOR OF PSYCHOLOGY THAT WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITH LAST YEAR, SO HERE REALLY SERIOUS, IT'S REALLY SERIOUS. SHOOTINGS, METH BUSTS AND THE 501S ` GANGS HAVE LONG BEEN THE SUBJECT OF POLITICAL DEBATE. THE LATEST FLASHPOINT CONCERNS $2.75M IN FUNDING FOR A DRUG-REHAB PROGRAM FOR GANG MEMBERS IN HAWKES BAY. KA TIKA TONU! WHEN THE KAHUKURA REHABILITATION PROGRAMME WAS TRIALLED IN HAWKE'S BAY LAST YEAR, TVNZ'S 'TE KARERE' WAS THERE. BASED AT A WAIPAWA MARAE, PATCHED GANG MEMBERS WERE SUPPORTED TO KICK METHAMPHETAMINE. THIS PROGRAMME IS BASED ON A PROGRAMME THAT HAS BEEN` THAT WAS RUN BACK IN 2010, AS PART OF THE THEN-NATIONAL GOVERNMENT'S METHAMPHETAMINE ACTION PLAN. AND IT IS VERY MUCH FOCUSED ON TRYING TO ADDRESS METH ADDICTION AND THE CRIME THAT OFTEN RESULTS FROM METH ADDICTION. BUT IS IT SMART TO SPEND THE PROCEEDS OF CRIME FUNDING DRUG TREATMENT FOR THE PERPETRATORS OF CRIME? $2.75 MILLION TO THE MONGREL MOB, WHEN THEY COULD HAVE GIVEN IT TO THE SALVATION ARMY, AS WE DID, TO WORK WITH PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO GET OFF P. THEY DIDN'T DO THAT. THEY GAVE IT TO THE MONGREL MOB. AND SORRY, THAT'S NOT GOOD ENOUGH. THE KAHUKURA PROGRAMME IS A 10-WEEK COURSE, WITH EIGHT WEEKS OF LIVE-IN SUPPORT AND TWO WEEKS OF INTENSIVE REINTEGRATION. THE GOVERNMENT CLAIMS LAST YEAR'S PILOT PROGRAMME HAD HIGH COMPLIANCE WITH COURT ORDERS. IT'S SUPPORTED BY THE MINISTRIES OF HEALTH, CORRECTIONS, AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT, PLUS THE LOCAL HAWKE'S BAY POLICE ` ALTHOUGH THE POLICE ASSOCIATION STRONGLY OPPOSES THE SCHEME. NEW ZEALAND HAS A GANG PROBLEM. THERE'S BEEN A 50% INCREASE IN GANG MEMBERSHIP. THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE THAT NEW ZEALANDERS ARE TELLING ME IS THAT THERE IS A GANG PROBLEM OUT THERE WHICH NEEDS TO BE FIXED, AND THIS GOVERNMENT IS BEING FAR TOO SOFT. ONE GROUP WE HAVEN'T HEARD FROM IS THE DIRECTORS IN CHARGE OF THE COMPANY THAT ACTUALLY RUNS KAHUKURA. ONE OF THEM IS HARRY TAM, AN HONORARY LIFE MEMBER OF THE MONGREL MOB, WHO'S ALSO SPENT YEARS WORKING IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR. WE WANT TO BE 100% TRANSPARENT ` HARRY TAM WOULD ONLY AGREE TO THE INTERVIEW ON THE UNDERSTANDING HE WOULD NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT THE MECHANICS OF THE KAHUKURA PROGRAMME ITSELF. HE SAYS THIS IS BECAUSE OF WHERE THE FUNDING PROCESS IS AT. BUT AS YOU'LL SEE, HE DOES ADDRESS THE CENTRAL CRITICISMS OF IT. I STARTED ON THE BROADER ISSUE, BY ASKING HARRY TAM WHY THE GOVERNMENT SAYS GANG NUMBERS HAVE INCREASED BY AS MUCH AS 50% IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS. WELL, THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS WITH THE INCREASE IN GANG NUMBERS. FIRST AND FOREMOST ` HOW ACCURATE ARE THOSE NUMBERS? I MEAN, I THINK IN THE PAST, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIKE JARROD GILBERT HAVE INTERROGATED SOME OF THOSE NUMBERS, AND THEY AREN'T ALWAYS ACCURATE. SO, YOU KNOW, I'LL PUT THAT UP FIRST AND FOREMOST. I THINK MY OBSERVATIONS... THE PEOPLE THAT ARE COMING INTO THE GANGS... ARE PRETTY MUCH SORTA LIKE THIRD-GENERATION. YOU KNOW? AND YOU'VE KIND OF GOT TO LOOK AT ` WHAT ARE THE DRIVERS BEHIND THAT? AND I THINK THERE'S A DIRECT CORRELATION WITH THE GROWTH IN DISPARITIES, PARTICULARLY WITH MAORI AND NON-MAORI. AND I MEAN, IF YOU TAKE A LOOK AT THE MAORI MEDIAN WAGE ` I THINK IT'S AROUND ABOUT 24,000, AND NON-MAORI IS ABOUT 34,000. AND REALLY, THOSE COMMUNITIES, THEY'RE NOT UNEMPLOYED; THEY'RE JOBLESS. THEY'VE STOPPED ACTIVELY LOOKING FOR WORK, BECAUSE, ONE, THEY'RE ACTUALLY UNSKILLED. SO THEY'LL COME INTO UNSKILLED EMPLOYMENT OR SEMI-SKILLED EMPLOYMENT, AND THE RETURNS ARE RELATIVELY LOW. LIKE, YOUR MINIMUM WAGE HAS JUST GONE UP $20 AN HOUR, WHICH IS GOOD. IT'S A STEP, DEFINITELY, IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. BUT YOU'VE HAD 30 YEARS OF THIS LOW-WAGE, LOW-SKILL ECONOMY, AND THESE PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, HAVE BEEN BROUGHT UP WITH INTERGENERATIONAL DYSFUNCTION. YOU ONLY HAVE TO HAVE A LOOK AT WHAT'S COMING OUT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY. YOU KNOW, WHERE DID THE GANGS ORIGINATE FROM IN NEW ZEALAND? YOU KNOW, IT'S THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN IN STATE CARE AND HAVE BEEN ABUSED, AND THEIR TRAUMAS HAVE NEVER BEEN DEALT WITH. AND SO IT'S AN INTERGENERATIONAL TRANSFER OF TRAUMA AND DYSFUNCTION. SO BY THE TIME YOU GET TO YOUR THIRD GENERATION, THAT NOT WORKING AND ALL THAT, THAT'S THE NORM, YOU KNOW? NOT HAVING FATHERS AROUND ` THAT'S THE NORM. AND SO PEOPLE ARE DISCONNECTED FROM THEIR CULTURE. THEY'RE DISCONNECTED FROM THEIR WHAKAPAPA AND ALL THOSE THINGS, AND THEN THEY SEE... A GROUP THAT... THAT LIVES... IN WHAT THEY PERCEIVE AS A FAMILY, AND THE CLOSENESS, AND PEOPLE THAT DON'T JUDGE THEM. IT BECOMES AN ATTRACTIVE ALTERNATIVE. IF GANG NUMBERS ARE INCREASING, WHAT ROLE ARE THE RETURNING 501S HAVING? THAT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION. I MEAN, LIKE, PUT IT THIS WAY ` FOR THE 501S THAT COME BACK, I MEAN, THERE'S NO POWHIRI FOR THEM, IS THERE? I MEAN, THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN SO DISCONNECTED FROM THEIR OWN WHANAU. THEY'VE BEEN LIVING OVER IN OZ OR WHEREVER, RIGHT? AND THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN, YOU'RE SENT BACK TO SOMEWHERE. YOU GET MET AT THE AIRPORT BY TWO DETECTIVES, AND YOU WALK AWAY WITH $300. AND I DON'T THINK THEY EVEN SAY GOOD LUCK TO THEM. SO I THINK THERE'S... WE DO NEED TO LOOK AT HOW WE... YOU KNOW, I WAS TALKING TO NGAHIWI THE OTHER DAY. MAYBE WE NEED TO GET IWI INVOLVED IN THAT TO HELP RECONNECT THEM WITH THEIR HAPU AND THEIR WHANAU SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO GO TO THE GANG. PARTICULARLY, LIKE, IF YOU HAVEN'T GOT AN IDENTITY, YOU CAN'T APPLY FOR A BENEFIT. YOU CAN'T APPLY FOR BENEFIT SUPPORT NOW. IF YOU HAVEN'T GOT AN ADDRESS THAT YOU CAN SAY, YOU KNOW, 'MY POWER BILL WENT TO THIS ADDRESS,' HOW DO YOU GET HELP? SO THESE PEOPLE WILL NO DOUBT GO BACK TO OTHERS THAT THEY KNOW OF, AND SO... SO I THINK` BUT OVERALL, I THINK THE 501 THING IS PROBABLY PLAYED UP MORE THAN WHAT IT REALLY IS. BUT I THINK WHAT WE'RE NOT LOOKING AT IS THE CAUSES OF THEM GETTING INTO CRIME AS A MEANS OF SUPPORT FOR THEMSELVES, YOU KNOW? AS A LIFETIME HONORARY MEMBER OF THE MONGREL MOB, HOW EFFECTIVE HAS THE GUN BAN BEEN, WHEN IT COMES TO GETTING GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF GANGS? I THINK THE THING, FIRST AND FOREMOST ` THE GUNS ARE GENERALLY ILLEGAL, RIGHT? AND THE OTHER THING IS THAT I THINK WE REALLY NEED TO BE ASKING OURSELVES, WHY ARE PEOPLE GOING AROUND WITH GUNS? BECAUSE I THINK IF WE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT, THEN YOU CAN BAN GUNS, BUT IT'S NOT NECESSARILY GONNA CHANGE A HELL OF A LOT. MY VIEW IS THAT PEOPLE FEEL INSECURE, EITHER THROUGH THEIR LIFESTYLE, BECAUSE THEY'VE GOT OTHER THINGS GOING ON WITH OTHER GROUPS THAT THEY FEEL THAT THEY NEED TO PROTECT THEMSELVES WITH, OR THEY'RE INVOLVED IN SELLING DRUGS OR SOMETHING, AND THEY CAN'T GO TO THE POLICE IF THEY GET RIPPED OFF. NOW, IF WE UNDERSTAND THOSE THINGS ` FOR EXAMPLE, IF THERE'S RIVALRY BETWEEN GANGS, WELL, LET'S TRY AND RESOLVE THE RIVALRY, BECAUSE THEN YOU START TAKING AWAY THEIR NEED TO CARRY GUNS. IF IT'S ABOUT DRUGS, WELL, LOOK, HOW DO WE GET THEM OUT OF DRUGS? LIKE, I MEAN, I THINK THE THING IS THAT A LOT OF THE PEOPLE THAT THEY'RE SELLING TO ARE ACTUALLY THEIR OWN. IT'S ALMOST LIKE BROTHER KILLING BROTHER. NOW, IF OUR WHOLE STRATEGY IS AROUND, YOU KNOW, CUTTING OFF SUPPLY, THAT'LL WORK SO FAR. WHAT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON IS ALSO REDUCING DEMAND, BECAUSE IF WE CAN REDUCE IT` I MEAN, THIS IS JUST MARKET THEORY, ISN'T IT? SUPPLY AND DEMAND. IF YOU REDUCE THE DEMAND SIDE, THERE'S LESS NEED FOR SUPPLY. I THINK A LOT OF OUR STRATEGIES HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON REDUCING SUPPLY, WHICH I DON'T DISAGREE WITH, BUT WE ALSO NEED A BALANCED APPROACH. AND I THINK IF WE UNDERSTAND THOSE DYNAMICS THAT ARE HAPPENING WITHIN THE GANG COMMUNITIES, THEN WE'LL START ON THE PATH OF MAKING A DIFFERENCE. SO WHAT ROLE DOES METHAMPHETAMINE PLAY IN FINANCING GANGS? WELL, I DON'T KNOW HOW MUCH THEY FINANCE GANGS, AS SUCH. I THINK THEY'RE INDIVIDUALS. AT LEAST IN MY TIME BEING INVOLVED IN GANGS, IT'S MORE OF AN INDIVIDUAL OPERATION. NOW, I CAN'T SAY THAT FOR EVERY GANG, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW. HOW ELSE DO GANGS GET MONEY, THOUGH? I DON'T KNOW. I MEAN, SOME GO TO WORK, YOU KNOW? AND I'VE SEEN, IN RECENT TIMES, A LOT OF THE MOB GUYS HAVE ACTUALLY GONE INTO WORK, THE OLDER GUYS. BUT, YEAH, IT MAY WELL BE METH. BUT AGAIN, LIKE I SAY, UNLESS YOU ACTUALLY DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM IN ITSELF... I MEAN, FOR ME, IT'S THAT WE FOCUS A LOT AT THE TOP END OF THE METH THING, RIGHT? THE BIG BUSTS. AND WE KIND OF FEEL, 'JEEZ, THAT'S ANOTHER COUPLE OF MILLION DOLLARS,' AND WE FEEL GOOD ABOUT IT. BUT I REMEMBER SEEING A SITUATION HERE IN WELLINGTON WHERE THE POLICE ` IT CAME OUT IN THE COURT CASE THAT THEY WERE WATCHING THESE TWO MOB GUYS FOR A YEAR. AND OVER THAT YEAR, I THINK OVER $2 MILLION OF METH HAD GONE THROUGH THAT METH HOUSE. AND IT MADE ME REALLY QUESTION ` IS THIS THE RIGHT APPROACH? BECAUSE OVER THAT YEAR, WE ALLOWED $2 MILLION WORTH OF DAMAGE TO OUR COMMUNITY BEFORE WE GOT THEM. AND IT JUST SORT OF SEEMS TO ME THAT WE'RE SO FIXATED ON THE BIG BUSTS RATHER THAN... FOR GOD'S SAKE, JUST HAVE A COP CAR OUTSIDE THE METH HOUSE WITH A CARDBOARD CUT-OUT COP, IF YOU LIKE. BECAUSE IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY THE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO SELL THERE WHEN THERE'S A COP CAR THERE. IT'S HIGHLY UNLIKELY THE BUYER'S GONNA BUY THERE, RIGHT? HAVE SOME MORE DRUG COURTS IN THE COMMUNITY SO THESE PEOPLE` BECAUSE OFTEN, MY UNDERSTANDING IS THAT PEOPLE GET INTO SELLING METH INITIALLY TO SUPPORT THEIR OWN HABIT. THEN THEY REALISE THEY CAN MAKE QUICK MONEY AND BIG MONEY, AND THEN THEY GO ON AND ON, AND SO THEN THEY BECOME BIG SUPPLIERS. I WANT TO PICK UP ON SOMETHING YOU SAID. YOU SAID IT'S BROTHER DEALING TO BROTHER. SO HOW MUCH IS ADDICTION A PROBLEM IN MODERN GANGS? IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM. IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM. I MEAN, YOU ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AT THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES, THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO PRISON. IT'S A HUGE PROBLEM. WHAT IS THE BEST WAY... TO GIVE ASSISTANCE TO PEOPLE WHO ARE ADDICTED TO DRUGS IN A GANG SETTING? A LOT OF OUR PEOPLE DON'T TRUST PEOPLE. THERE'S THIS WHOLE THING OF TRUST. AND IF YOU LOOK INTO THEIR BACKGROUNDS, THEY'VE GOT GOOD REASONS NOT TO TRUST AUTHORITY. A LOT OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN INSTITUTIONALISED MOST OF THEIR LIVES, AND I THINK THESE ARE SOME OF THE STUFF THAT ARE COMING TO THE SURFACE NOW WHERE YOU SEE CHILDREN BEING PLUCKED OUT OF FAMILIES THROUGH ORANGA TAMARIKI. THEY GO INTO INSTITUTIONS. THEY GET BEATEN UP. THEY GET ABUSED. SO THEY BECOME REALLY UNTRUSTWORTHY, RIGHT? SO WHEN YOU SAY, 'YOU NEED REHAB. GO HERE, GO HERE,' THEY DON'T KNOW THOSE PEOPLE. THEY'RE NOT THEM. YOU KNOW, IN OUR WORLD, THIS WHOLE THING ABOUT 'WALK THE TALK' IS REALLY IMPORTANT. BECAUSE WITHOUT THAT TRUST, IT DOESN'T WORK. SO I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'RE TRYING TO BREAK SOME OF THOSE BARRIERS DOWN FROM SOME OF THE WORK THAT WE DO IS TO ACTUALLY ENGAGE AND INFLUENCE OUR PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY WANT TO MAKE CHANGE, RIGHT? SO I ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THE NEED TO PENETRATE. BECAUSE WE OFTEN ASSUME THAT YOU CAN JUST ROCK ON UP AND SAY, 'HEY, BRO, I WANT TO PUT YOU THROUGH REHAB,' AND IT'LL BE, 'PISS OFF,' YOU KNOW? BUT IF IT'S SOMEBODY THAT THEY CAN TRUST THAT COMES IN THERE AND HAVE THE CONVERSATIONS, YOU'LL BE AMAZED WHAT COMES OUT. PEOPLE WANT CHANGE, BUT THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO CHANGE. WHY SHOULD WE GIVE ANY SORT OF ASSISTANCE TO PEOPLE WHO HAVE MADE AN ACTIVE AND CONSCIOUS DECISION NOT TO PARTICIPATE IN SOCIETY? WELL, I THINK THE THING IS ` WHO IS WE? DOES THAT INCLUDE OT? DOES 'WE' INCLUDE THE ABUSERS? DOES 'WE' INCLUDE THE PAEDOPHILES THAT HAVE ABUSED THESE PEOPLE? DOES IT INCLUDE THE 'WE'S' AS IN LAKE ALICE? ARE THEY THE 'WE'S'? I MEAN, WE AS LAW-ABIDING, TAX-PAYING CITIZENS. WELL, THEY ARE TOO. LAW-ABIDING? COME ON, HARRY. NO. YOUR LEAKS. THE STUFF THAT IS COMING OUT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY ` THEY WERE LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS. THEY WERE EMPLOYED BY THE STATE. SO THAT IS 'WE', RIGHT? SO LET'S BE CLEAR ABOUT WHO 'WE' IS. MY QUESTION IS, WHY SHOULD... SOCIETY AT LARGE SUPPORT PEOPLE WHO HAVE CHOSEN NOT TO BE A PART OF SOCIETY AND MADE THAT A CONSCIOUS DECISION? I THINK THAT'S NOT A VALID QUESTION, BECAUSE, AGAIN, YOU'RE FORGETTING THE BACKSTORY OF WHY THEY HAVE OPTED OUT. THEY HAVEN'T OPTED OUT; THEY'VE BEEN PUSHED OUT. YOU KNOW? IF YOU'RE LOCKED UP IN AN INSTITUTION, AND YOUR CARER'S BEATING THE CRAP OUT OF YOU, DID YOU CHOOSE THAT? I WONDER ` HOW DOES... ANYONE ` BE IT MOBSTERS, BUREAUCRATS, JOURNALISTS ` KNOW WHERE YOUR LOYALTY LIES? WELL, I THINK MY LOYALTY LIES IN BEING A GOOD NEW ZEALANDER. I THINK THAT'S WHY THEY GAVE ME A MEDAL. I CAN SHOW YOU. 'SERVICES TO THE COUNTRY.' DO YOU CARRY THIS AROUND WITH YOU EVERYWHERE? NO, JUST THOUGHT I'D SHOW YOU ` JUST IN CASE, FOR THE NON-BELIEVERS. THE NEW ZEALAND 1990 COMMEMORATION MEDAL. YOU GET MY QUESTION, THOUGH? WELL, IT SEEMS LIKE... JACINDA SEEMS TO TRUST ME. WHY WOULDN'T YOU? BECAUSE YOU'RE` SEE, THAT'S WHERE THE PROBLEM IS. YOU SEE? IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT I DO. BECAUSE I'VE HAD THAT LABEL, YOU'RE NOT GONNA TRUST ME. AND THAT'S THE THING, YOU SEE? WHEN THESE GUYS... WE DEMONISE THEM, RIGHT? AND THEN WE'VE GOT REASON TO HATE THEM. BUT WHEN THEY TRY TO DO SOMETHING FOR THEMSELVES, WE'RE GONNA BASH THEM AGAIN ANYWAY. WE'RE GONNA DEMONISE THEM. THEY CAN'T WIN. AND I THINK THEREIN LIES YOUR ANSWER. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT I DO. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT REFERENCES I'VE GOT. YOU'RE STILL GOING TO LOOK AT ME AS LIKE, 'HE'S ONE OF THEM.' SO THE THING IS... YOU KNOW, HOW ARE WE GOING TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE? ON ONE HAND, WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE RISING NUMBERS. WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT GUN CRIME. WE'RE CONCERNED ABOUT METH AND ALL THE REST OF IT. AND WE'RE GOING TO DO THE SAME THING AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN, RIGHT? AND YOU ONLY HAVE TO LOOK AT THE STATS, AND I ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THE ESTIMATES OF GANG NUMBERS IN 1981 AT THE TIME OF THE REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE ON GANGS. AND IF YOU GO AND HAVE A LOOK AT THE MINISTERIAL INQUIRY INTO VIOLENCE, THE ROPER REPORT, AND SEE WHAT THE ESTIMATED NUMBERS OF GANG MEMBERS WERE THEN, THERE WAS ACTUALLY A REDUCTION. AND IT'S THE ONLY PERIOD IN THE HISTORY OF NEW ZEALAND WHERE THERE WAS ACTUALLY A REDUCTION IN GANG NUMBERS. SO WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN '81 AND '87? YEAH? MULDOON. HE ACTIVELY LOOKED FOR SOLUTIONS, EMPLOYED PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF TO GO OUT THERE AND ENGAGE THOSE COMMUNITIES AND GET THEM INTO WORK, GET THEM INTO EDUCATION, GET THEM INTO TRAINING. BUT WE DON'T WANT TO LOOK AT THAT, BECAUSE WE WANT TO DEMONISE THEM. WE WANT TO DEMONISE MULDOON, BECAUSE HE WAS CLOSE TO GANGS, YOU KNOW? AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM, IS THAT WE CAN'T STOP OURSELVES LOOKING AT THE FACTS AND LOOKING AT THE DATA. WE JUST WANT TO DEMONISE PEOPLE, BECAUSE WE'VE GOT THIS SOCIETY WHERE IT'S ALL ABOUT WHO IS WORTHY AND WHO IS NOT. AND IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT WE DO TO SOMEONE; THEY'RE STILL NOT WORTHY. YOU KNOW? WE'VE HAD THIS ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY GOING ON FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, AND THE TRUTH IS STARTING TO COME OUT. BUT THEY'RE NOT WORTHY. 'THEY'RE NOT US', YEAH? IN YOUR OWN WORDS. SO AS LONG AS WE'VE GOT A SOCIETY OF 'US AND THEM' AND WE USE THIS JUDGEMENT TOOL OF WHO IS DESERVING AND WHO IS NOT, THESE PROBLEMS WILL CONTINUE. AND WE NEVER LOOK AT WHAT UNDERPINS THESE PROBLEMS. WE NEVER GET TO TRY AND UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM. BUT RIGHT NOW, AND FOR THE LAST 30 YEARS, LITERALLY, WE'VE HAD THIS MODEL OF SUPPRESSION, WHICH IS KNOWN AS SUPPRESSION, WHICH IS PURELY SURVEILLANCE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT. AND WHAT HAVE YOU GOT? YOU'VE NOW GOT AN INCREASE. BECAUSE PART OF THAT SURVEILLANCE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT, IT ALSO GLAMORISES GANGS TO A CERTAIN EXTENT. AND YOU'VE GOT THIS WHOLE, SORT OF, COMMERCIALISATION OF GANGSTER CULTURE THAT GETS INTO THE MINDS OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. SO THERE'S ALL THOSE DYNAMICS THAT ARE HAPPENING. AND ON THE OTHER HAND, THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY, OF THE COIN, THEIR OBSERVATIONS IS AN UNINFORMED OBSERVATION. IT CONJURES UP MORE FEAR. AND SO YOU HAVE THIS PERPETUATION THAT, AT THE END OF THE DAY, THERE'S NO END IN SIGHT. AND... YEAH, IT FRIGHTENS THE HELL OUT OF ME. AFTER THE BREAK ` WE GET THE POLICE MINISTER'S RESPONSE. AND AFTER A WEEK OF SHOOTINGS AND GUN VIOLENCE, WHAT MORE CAN BE DONE TO KEEP OFFICERS AND THE PUBLIC SAFE? HOKI MAI. WELCOME BACK TO Q+A. THE DECISION TO FUND THE KAHUKURA DRUG-REHAB PROGRAMME HAS BEEN SUPPORTED BY POLICE IN HAWKES BAY, BUT CRITICISED BY THE POLICE ASSOCIATION. POLICE MINISTER POTO WILLIAMS IS WITH US NOW LIVE FROM OTAUTAHI. KIA ORA. WHY SHOULD KAHUKURA GET FUNDING? LET'S BE REALLY CLEAR, METH IS A HUGE PROBLEM IN OUR COMMUNITY. THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO FUND PROGRAMS THAT WORKED TO DISRUPT THE HARM FROM METH. BUT I DO WANT TO SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THAT INTERVIEW I HAVE JUST SEEN ` FOR ME, GANGS PEDAL METH. METH DESTROYS OUR COMMUNITIES. I WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SEEN FROM THAT PERSON THAT YOU INTERVIEWED, THE FACT THAT GANGS ARE HUGE PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY, IN TERMS OF WHAT THEY DO AROUND PEDDLING METH. IF HE REALLY WANTS TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE, HE CAN USE HIS INFLUENCE TO DISRUPT AND DISMANTLE THE GANGS. IT STARTS WITH HIM. IF GANGS PEDAL METH, WHY A IS YOUR GOVERNMENT AND DIRECTLY FUNDING GANGS? WE ARE FUNDING A PROGRAM THAT HAS SHOWN THROUGH THE PILOT TO WORK. WE ARE NOT FUNDING GANGS. HE IS THE DIRECTOR OF THE PROGRAM, OF KAHUKURA, HE HAS A LIFETIME MEMBER OF THE MONGREL MOB. WE ARE FUNDING, THROUGH THE LEAD AGENCY, WHICH IS THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH, WE ARE FUNDING A PROGRAM WHOSE PILOT HAS SHOWN TO WORK TO DISRUPT THE HARM FROM METH. WE COULD TAKE A LARGER LOOK AT THIS, AND GET PEOPLE LIKE HARRY TAM TO HELP TO DISMANTLE THE GANGS. THAT TAKES THE PROBLEM OUT OF OUR COMMUNITIES, BECAUSE LET'S FACE IT, GANGS OTHER ONES WHO PEDAL METH AND OUR COMMUNITIES. I KNOW THIS DECISION HAS GONE TO SEVERAL DIFFERENT AGENCIES, DO YOU BELIEVE THE NOTORIOUS CHAPTER OF THE MONGREL MOB IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DEALING METHAMPHETAMINE? I AM SURE THAT GANGS ARE PEDDLING METH. I AM SURE THAT GANGS DO THAT BY RECRUITING YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE DISADVANTAGED, WHO SEE THE BLANK THAT IS ON OFFER FROM GANGS. LET'S BE CLEAR, THIS IS NOT A PASSIVE ACTIVITY BY GANGS, THEY ARE ACTIVELY OUT THERE LOOKING FOR YOUNG PEOPLE. THEY ARE ENTICING PEOPLE INTO GANGS. THERE IS THE BLING THAT GOES ALONG, THERE IS THE MONEY THAT IS SHOWN. THERE IS NOTHING IN ACTIVE OR PASSIVE ABOUT GANGS ACTIVE RECRUITMENT OF YOUNG PEOPLE. THE PROBLEM WE HAVE IS THAT WE HAVE TO BE TOUGH ON CRIME, BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO BE TOUGH ON THE DRIVERS OF CRIME, AND THAT IS LOOKING AT HOW WE SUPPORT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE TO STAY IN EDUCATION, TO GET EMPLOYMENT, TO GET GOOD JOBS. IF I LOOK AT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE EASTERN BAY OF PLENTY, WHETHER COMMUNITY THERE HAS SAID WHAT THE GANGS ARE DOING IS MAKING A HUGE IMPACT ON OUR COMMUNITIES, AND WE WANT, FOR OUR YOUNG PEOPLE, TO HAVE A BETTER WAY OF LIFE. THE COMMUNITY, WITH THE POLICE, WITH IWI, GOT TOGETHER AND DID SOMETHING ABOUT THAT, AND TRIED TO KEEP THE YOUNG PEOPLE OUT OF GANGS. ONCE THEY ARE IN THAT LIFESTYLE, WE HAVE TO FIND THE OPPORTUNITIES TO HELP THEM EXIT THAT. AGAIN LIFE IS NOT A SUSTAINABLE LIFE, IT'S A HARD LIFE. THAT ACTUALLY MEANS` GANGS USE OUR YOUNG PEOPLE TO ACTUALLY CONTINUE THEIR BUSINESS PEDDLING METH. IT'S CONFUSING TO TRY AND DIGESTS YOUR MESSAGE ` IN ONE BREATH, YOU ARE SAYING THAT HARRY SHOULD BE MORE CRITICAL OF GANGS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOUR GOVERNMENT IS USING THE PROCEEDS OF CRIME TO FUND HIS PROGRAM THAT INDIRECTLY FUNDS THE MONGREL MOB? WHAT I'M SAYING` I'M TRAINED TO BE CLEAR HERE. WE ARE FUNDING A PROGRAM THAT HAS BEEN PROVEN TO HAVE WORKED. THE PILOT SHOWED 100% COMPLIANCE AROUND THE DRUG USE. AN 80% COMPLIANCE AROUND COURT ORDERS. WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT HARRY HAS GOT SOME WORK TO DO TOO` TO GET THE MESSAGE OUT THERE, THAT THE GANG LIFE IS NOT WHAT WE WANT FOR OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. I THINK THE MESSAGE THAT HE WAS GIVING WAS QUITE THE OPPOSITE. IT SOUNDED LIKE A RECRUITMENT DRIVE FOR THE GANGS. YOUNG PEOPLE SEE THE BLING AND THE LIFESTYLE THAT THE GANGS PRETEND TO OFFER, THEY GET THEM AND THERE, AND WE SPEND AS A GOVERNMENT, AS A COUNTRY, AND AS COMMUNITIES, AND AWFUL LOT OF OUR RESOURCES TRYING TO GET THEM OUT OF GANGS. WANTED A MISTAKE TO GIVE HIM FUNDING? NO, I'M NOT SAYING THAT IS ALL. YOU THINK HE MAKES IT SOUND GLAMOROUS, BUT YOU GAVE HIM $2.75 MILLION? WE DID NOT FIND HARRY TAM, WE FUNDED KAHUKURA. LOOK, I WANT TO BE CLEAR WITH YOU` WE ARE NOT FUNDING THE GANGS, WE ARE FUNDING A PROGRAM THAT HAS BEEN SHOWN TO WORK. SORRY TO INTERRUPT` I HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE SHOOTINGS THIS WEEK. WE WILL PUT THAT ISSUE TO ONE SIDE. THIS IS A FUNDING DECISION THAT HAS BEEN MADE BY SEVERAL AGENCIES` ARE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL DEVELOPING, CORRECTIONS... WE HAVE SEEN A SERIES OF HIGH-PROFILE SHOOTINGS THIS WEEK, MULTIPLE SHOOTINGS INVOLVING POLICE` IF THE GUN BUYBACK HAD WORKED, WHY ARE WE SEEING SO MUCH GUN CRIME? FIRST AND FOREMOST, I HAVE TO SAY THAT I AM HUGELY GRATEFUL FOR THE WORK OF THE POLICE. THEY PUT THEMSELVES OUT ON THE FRONT LINE EVERY DAY, TO KEEP THEMSELVES SAFE` KEEP US SAFE. IT IS OUR JOB TO SUPPORT THEM TO GO HOME TO THEIR FAMILIES EVERY DAY. THE LAST FEW WEEKS, AND DAYS HAVE BEEN VERY DISTRESSING FOR EVERYBODY CONCERNED. IT IS NEVER GREAT WHEN POLICE ARE IN HARM'S WAY` LET'S BE CLEAR, I AM GRATEFUL FOR THE WORK THAT THEY DO. WHAT I WANT TO SAY AS WE TOOK 60,000 MILITARY STYLE SEMIAUTOMATIC WEAPONS OUT OF THE COMMUNITY. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MINUTE` THERE WERE 60,000 MILITARY STYLE SEMIAUTOMATIC WEAPONS IN THE COMMUNITY, AND WE NOT ONLY TOOK THEM OUT OF THE COMMUNITY, BUT THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO BE USED TO HARM PEOPLE. WHY ARE WE SEEING SO MUCH GUN CRIME? WE NEED TO CONTINUE WITH THE ARMS REGISTER REFORM. WHAT WE NEED TO GET A GOOD HANDLE ON IS HOW MANY WEAPONS ARE IN OUR COMMUNITY, AND BY REGISTERING THOSE WEAPONS, POLICE WILL KNOW WHEN THEY GO TO AN INCIDENT, WHAT THEY ARE FACING. THAT DOES NOT ADDRESS MY CENTRAL QUESTION, IF THE GUN BUYBACK HAD WORKED, IF THEY HAD WORKED, WHY ARE WE SEEING SO MUCH GUN CRIME? I HAVE TO CORRECT YOU` WE TOOK THE MILITARY STYLE SEMIAUTOMATIC WEAPONS THE ONES THAT WERE USED, THE TYPE OF WEAPON THAT WAS USED ON MARCH 15, THOSE WERE THE WEAPONS WE TOOK OUT OF THE COMMUNITY. WE WANT TO BE CLEAR ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS TO GET GUNS INTO THE HANDS OF CRIMINALS IN THE FIRST PLACE. IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, HOW DOES THAT OCCUR? THAT OCCURS IN TWO WAYS` EITHER LICENSED DEALERS OF SELLING FIREARMS, TO PEOPLE WHO ARE THEN PASSING THEM ON TO GANGS, OR LEGITIMATE FIREARMS OWNERS ARE HAVING THEIR WEAPONS STOLEN FROM THEM. SO WHAT WE WANT TO DO, IS TO ACTUALLY MAKE SURE THAT OUR DEALERS ARE PROPERLY LICENSED, AND ONLY PROVIDING WEAPONS TO THOSE THAT THEY SHOULD BE. SO WE NEED TO HAVE THE REGISTER TO ENSURE THAT WE HAVE GOT PEOPLE WHO ARE FIT AND PROPER TO OWN WEAPONS. AND WE NEED TO ENCOURAGE A LEGITIMATE FIREARMS OWNERS TO SECURE THEIR WEAPONS PROPERLY. SORRY TO INTERRUPT, WE ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR DECISIONS WHEN IT COMES TO THE GENERAL ARMING OF POLICE? THAT WILL BE DEPENDENT ON SITUATIONS. GENERAL ARMING OF THE POLICE? I DON'T THINK OUR COMMUNITY SUPPORTS GENERAL ARMING OF THE POLICE. I CERTAINLY DON'T. WHOSE DECISION IS THAT WHETHER OR NOT TO OUR NEW ZEALAND POLICE? ROUTINELY OUR NEW ZEALAND POLICE? THAT IS A DISCUSSION FOR THE COMMUNITY. WHEN WE HAVE HAD THE RECENT PILOT AROUND THE ARMED RESPONSE TACTICAL UNITS, THAT HAPPENS A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, OR A YEAR OR SO AGO, I COMMUNITY WAS REALLY CLEAR` THEY ARE NOT READY FOR THE GENERAL ARMING OF POLICE. ARE POLICE ARE POLICE BY CONSENT OF THE COMMUNITY, AND THE RELATIONSHIP THAT THE POLICE HAVE AT THEIR COMMUNITY IS VERY IMPORTANT. MAINTAINING THAT, THERE WILL BE A DIFFERENT DYNAMIC IF WE ARE NOW POLICE GENERALLY. AND WHAT I WANT TO SAY, IS HOW WE TRAIN POLICE, HOW WE RESOURCE THEM, THE WORK THAT THE COMMISSIONER HAS PUT IN PLACE AROUND FRONTLINE SAFETY IMPROVEMENT PROGRAMS, HELP THE POLICE TO BE MORE CONFIDENT IN THEIR ROLES. THERE IS MORE THAT WE CAN DO, AND I IN SPEAKING WITH THE COMMISSION ABOUT THAT ALL THE TIME, ABOUT KEEPING OUR PEOPLE SAFE. THE LAST THING THAT I WANT... FOR YOU, AS MINISTER, EVER SUPPORT THE ROUTINE ARMING OF FRONTLINE NEW ZEALAND POLICE? KNOW I WOULD NOT. THERE ARE OPPORTUNITIES FOR US TO DO THINGS IN OTHER WAYS. POLICE HAVE ACCESS TO WEAPONS, THEY HAVE ACCESS TO TRAINING, BUT I DO NOT, AS A PRINCIPAL. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME, WE APPRECIATE IT. THAT IS POLICE MINISTER POTO WILLIAMS. AFTER THE BREAK ` MASSEYS EN MASSE, AS SOME FARMERS SHOW THEIR FRUSTRATIONS. MAYORS OF TWO VERY DIFFERENT REGIONS SHARE THE SENTIMENT FROM THEIR COMMUNITIES. LOOK, I KNOW THAT CHANGE ISN'T EASY, AND SOMETIMES, WE'VE JUST GOT TO ADMIT IT'S NECESSARY. I KNOW WHAT CHANGE FEELS LIKE WHEN ITS DONE TO YOU, AND THAT'S NOT THE PERSON I WANT TO BE TO ANYONE ELSE. WE NEED TO WALK FORWARD TOGETHER. ALL NZERS BENEFIT WHEN ALL COUNCILS ACT IN THE COLLECTIVE INTEREST, AND IN PARTNERSHIP WITH CENTRAL GOVERNMENT, IWI AND MANA WHENUA, ON BEHALF OF ALL OF OUR COMMUNITIES. THAT WAS LOCAL GOVERNMENT MINISTER NANAIA MAHUTA, STRIKING A CONCILIATORY TONE WITH MAYORS AT THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT CONFERENCE IN BLENHEIM ON FRIDAY. TWO OF THE LOCAL MAYORS WHO WERE THERE LISTENING ARE WITH ME NOW ` CAMPBELL BARRY, MAYOR OF LOWER HUTT CITY; AND TIM CARDOGAN, MAYOR OF THE CENTRAL OTAGO DISTRICT. CAMPBELL, WHERE DO YOU STAND? TIM, WHERE DO YOU STAND? STILL NEED TO COMMUNICATE WITH THE COMMUNITY, STILL NEED TO COME TO A DECISION. WE ARE NOT THERE YET. WHAT YOU NEED TO SEE TO MAKE THE DECISION? SOME CLARIFICATION. THE STUFF WE HAVE AT THE MOMENT IS COMPLICATED. I STRUGGLE TO UNDERSTAND IT. I NEED INDEPENDENT CONSULTANTS TO HELP WITH THAT. WE WILL START TO SEE WHAT DIFFERENCE IT MAKES. IT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP IN MIND THERE IS NO STATUS QUO. CAMPBELL, WHERE DO YOU STAND? EACH COUNCIL NEEDS TO GO THROUGH THAT DETAIL. THE STATUS QUO ISN'T AN OPTION FOR US IN LOWER HUTT IN WELLINGTON. WE FACE A TRIFECTA OF ISSUES. WE HAVE SIGNIFICANT UNDERINVESTMENT OVER DECADES. THE INFRASTRUCTURE IS COMING TO THE END OF ITS LIFE. WE HAVE EXPERIENCED SIGNIFICANT GROWTH. WE NEED TO CHANGE HOW WE DO THINGS. DO YOU FEEL LIKE SENTIMENT HAS SHIFTED THIS WEEK? THERE IS STILL A LOT OF QUESTIONS BEING ASKED. WHAT I WOULD REMIND PEOPLE IS THAT THESE REFORMS HAVE COME FROM WHAT HAPPENED IN HAVELOCK NORTH, WHERE WE SAW PEOPLE PASS AWAY DUE TO UNCLEAN WATER AND PEOPLE HOSPITALISED. ONE THIRD OF THE COMMUNITY WAS MADE SICK. THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING ON THIS REFORM PROGRAM BECAUSE OF THE. FROM THE TOP OF THE NORTH ISLAND TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SELF, THERE IS CHALLENGES ACROSS THE BOARD IN DIFFERENT DISTRICTS, CITIES. WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT. HOW MANY COUNCILS DO YOU NEED TO GET ON BOARD WITH THIS TO FLY? THE MINISTER SAYS ALL OF THEM, WHICH MAKES IT INTERESTING. NOT ALL OF THEM WILL. THE MOOD OF THE ROOM YESTERDAY WOULD NOT INDICATE THAT. THAT LEADS TO SOME FURTHER INTERESTING QUESTIONS. WHAT ARE YOUR COLLEAGUES SAYING? THERE ARE A LOT OF COUNCILS NOT ON BOARD? HARD TO QUANTIFY. THERE IS A NUMBER ARE NOT ON THE BOARD AT THE MOMENT. THEY DON'T THINK THEY EVER WILL BE, THERE IS NOTHING IN IT FOR THEM. THERE IS WORK TO BE DONE FOR THEM, FOR ALL OF US TO GET AN UNDERSTANDING. I AM SURPRISED THAT SOME CAN MAKE THOSE CALLS. THE GOVERNMENT HAS SAID THEY WANT ALL COUNCILS TO BE ON BOARD WITH THESE CHANGES, BUT IN ORDER FOR THAT TO BE THE CASE, WILL THEY HAVE TO CONSIDER SOME SORT OF MANDATE? MENTATION IS THE LAST THING THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO DO. WE DO NEED SOME FORM OF REFORM. THIS IS THE REFORM THAT IS ON THE TABLE. IT HAS BEEN WORKED THROUGH. THE GOVERNMENT EITHER STOPS AND STARTS ANOTHER PROCESS. I DON'T THINK THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. MANDATION IS A REAL REASON FOR GETTING AN UNDERSTANDING. HOW IMPORTANT IS AUCKLAND AND THIS? INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. WE CAME FROM THE CONFERENCE, AND THE AUCKLAND COUNCIL GOT AN EXCELLENT RESPONSE FOR THEIR COVID 19 RESPONSE. IT WAS AUCKLAND'S ROLE TO LOOK AFTER THE WELL-BEING OF ALL OF NEW ZEALAND. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT AUCKLAND AND CHRISTCHURCH, WHICH ARE CRUCIAL TO THESE REFORMS OF IT IS GOING TO WORK, THINK ABOUT ALL OF NEW ZEALAND IN THIS, BECAUSE WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE IS HEALTHY FOR PEOPLE AND THE ENVIRONMENT. AT THE MOMENT, RATEPAYERS IN AUCKLAND WILL SAY I AM PAYING A PREMIUM TO LIVE IN AUCKLAND, AN EXPENSIVE CITY TO LIVE COMPARE TO RURAL PARTS OF NEW ZEALAND; WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO PROP UP THOSE SMALLER COUNCILS? WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, IT IS IMPORTANT FOR EVERYONE TO GET THEIR HEAD AROUND, AUCKLAND IS BETTER OFF. IT IS IMPORTANT THAT WE STICK TO THE FACTS WITH THIS CONVERSATION. FOR AUCKLAND, AUCKLAND IS DON'T LIVE WITHIN THEIR CITY COUNCIL BOUNDARIES. THEY GO TO OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY. THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO TURN THE TAP ON AND MAKE SURE THE WATER IS CLEAN WHEREVER THEY GO. GIVE US THE MOOD IN THE ROOM AMONGST YOUR FELLOW MAYORS. THERE HAS BEEN TENSION WITHIN CENTRAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT. IS THERE A SENSE THAT THERE IS TENSION? YOU HAVE 67 EGOS WITH THE MOOD IN THE ROOM. SOME ARE SITTING BACK GOING, LET'S GET THE FULL DATA. SOME ARE MAKING BIG STATEMENTS. SOME ARE ANGRY. THE STATUS QUO IS GONE. HAVELOCK NORTH STOPPED THAT. WE HAVE TO GO ON WITH SOMETHING. IT IS HARD TO COMMUNICATE WITH PEOPLE IN TRENCHES. WHY ARE PEOPLE ANGRY? THERE IS A LOT OF REFORM IN THE GOVERNMENT SECTOR. THE FUTURE OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT. CHANGE BRINGS FEAR, AND FEAR BRINGS ANGER. HOW SHOULD THE BALANCE OF POWER SHIFT THROUGH THOSE REFORMS? DO COUNCILS AT THE MOMENT HAVE TOO MUCH POWER, TO LITTLE, OR IS IT WRITE? IF WE LOOK AT DRINKING WATER, THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH HAS NEVER PROSECUTED. THAT AS PART OF THE REASON WHY WE HAVE NOT SORTED IT. MOVING FORWARD, THERE IS A STICK THERE. IT NEEDS TO BE, SO THAT PEOPLE HAVE SAFE DRINKING WATER. WITH THAT COMING AT US, WE NEED TO MOVE IN A DIRECTION. LOCAL GOVERNMENT REFORMS, IS WELLINGTON OVERSTEPPING ITS AUTHORITY? IN AN IDEAL WORLD. WE WOULD LOOK AT THE FUTURE OF GOVERNMENT IN NEW ZEALAND GENERALLY, NOT JUST LOCAL. THE REALITY IS WE HAVE HAVELOCK NORTH, AND THESE REFORMS HAVE MOVED QUICKER. THERE DOES NEED TO BE A CONVERSATION ABOUT THE ROLE NATIONALLY AND REGIONALLY. THERE ARE SOME FUNCTIONS THAT ARE DONE LOCALLY THAT SHOULD BE DONE ELSEWHERE. THERE ARE THINGS THAT ARE DONE NATIONALLY THAT COULD BE DONE LOCALLY. THAT IS IMPORTANT. THERE IS A GENUINE COMMITMENT TO LOOK AT THAT FROM THE GOVERNMENT. AT WHAT POINT WILL YOU BOTH BE ABLE TO HAVE A FIRM POSITION ABOUT REFORMS? OVER THE NEXT FEW MONTHS IS GOING TO BE KEY IN TERMS OF SOCIALISING THIS INFORMATION WITH OUR COUNCILS. WHAT IS CLEAR IS THAT THERE IS KNOWLEDGE ABOUT WHAT THIS MEANS, AND EACH COUNCIL NEED TO TAKE ITS OWN ADVICE. $500 MILLION, NO COUNCIL IS WORSE OFF. THAT IS UNCAPPED. SOME COUNCILS HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB THAN OTHERS AND INVESTED IN INFRASTRUCTURE. THEY SHOULD BE ACKNOWLEDGED FOR THAT. THEY SHOULDN'T BE LOADED UP WITH DEBT OF THESE REFORMS. THOSE THINGS ARE ON THE TABLE AND NEED TO BE TAUGHT THROUGH. I WAS INTERESTED IN YOUR RESPECTIVE PERSPECTIVES ON THE FARMERS PROTEST ON FRIDAY. TIM, DID THAT REFLECT SENTIMENT IN YOUR COMMUNITY? FARMERS ARE REFLECTING THAT THERE ARE CHANGE IN THE RURAL LANDSCAPE. THAT IS CREATING FEAR, UNCERTAINTY. THAT CAME OUT ON FRIDAY. WE SAW A LOT OF ANGER. THAT IS WHAT IS GOING TO BE FOCUSED ON. THE ANCHOR IS GENERATED BY THE FEAR OF WHAT IS GOING TO BE FARMING FOR MY CHILDREN. IT IS WORKING THROUGH THE CHANGES, RECOGNISING THAT WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT DRIVING THESE CHANGES. THE PARTIES NEED TO KEEP TALKING. THE FARMERS HAVE MADE SOME NOISE THAT WON'T BE IGNORED. THE DIALOGUE HAS TO BE OPEN FOR HOW THESE CHANGES CAN BE MANAGED. IT IS INTERESTING TO CONSIDER THE CONFERENCE ON FRIDAY, ALL OF THE MAYORS, WHAT CAN SEEM LIKE A DIVIDE BETWEEN URBAN CENTRES AND RURAL CENTRES WHEN IT COMES TO THE THREE QUARTERS REFORMS. HOW DO WE HAVE NOT HAVE A BINARY DIVIDE ABOUT OTHER CHANGES? IT IS A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF BOTH PARTIES. I HAVE LEARNED A LOT SINCE I HAVE BEEN ON FARMS. THEY ARE SOME OF THE BEST CONSERVATIONISTS. THEY CARE ABOUT THE LAND THEY ARE ON. SOME OF THEM DON'T, AND THEY ARE WHO WE READ ABOUT. FOR THE FARMERS, IT IS TELLING A GOOD STORY, BUT IT IS TELLING PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT UP TO SPEED THAT IT IS RUINING EVERYTHING FOR EVERYBODY. THE RURAL URBAN DIVIDE IS UNHELPFUL. WE DON'T EAT WITHOUT FARMERS. I TOTALLY AGREE. THAT DIVIDE IS BEATEN UP AND IS UNHELPFUL. WHAT WE NEED TO LOOK AT IS LONG-TERM, BIGGER PICTURE, WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE BEST THING FOR NEW ZEALAND WHEN IT COMES TO ADDING VALUE. THERE IS A RISING EXPECTATION FROM CONSUMERS IN NEW ZEALAND WE CAN DO A BETTER JOB OF THAT. INTERNATIONALLY, THERE IS AN EXPECTATION THAT THINGS ARE GROWING OR MADE IN A SUSTAINABLE WAY. THERE IS OPPORTUNITIES TO GET GOOD ECONOMIC OUTCOMES FOR US AS A COUNTRY. THAT NEEDS TO BE SHARED. HOW CAN WE SUPPORT EACH OTHER TO MAKE SURE WE GET THOSE OUTCOMES? WE APPRECIATE BOTH OF YOUR PERSPECTIVES AND THE EFFORT TO GET TO THE STUDIO GIVEN THE WILD WEATHER. AFTER THE BREAK ` THE UK IS SET TO THROW AWAY COVID RESTRICTIONS TOMORROW FOR WHAT BORIS JOHNSON CALLS 'FREEDOM DAY.' BUT EPIDEMIOLOGISTS ARE NOT ONBOARD. THIS RHETORIC OF LIVING WITH THE VIRUS AND ALLOWING HIGH LEVELS OF TRANSMISSION, IT'S SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE. EVERYONE HAS TO, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, ADMIT THAT ELIMINATION IS THE ONLY WAY FORWARD. IN A FEW HOURS, ENGLAND WILL DISCARD ITS LAST REMAINING COVID-19 RESTRICTIONS, FOR WHAT PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON HAS LABELLED 'FREEDOM DAY.' SOME EPIDEMIOLOGISTS SAY IT'S A DISASTROUS IDEA. EPIDEMIOLOGIST DR DEEPTI GURDASANI PUBLISHED IN MEDICAL JOURNAL 'THE LANCET' THIS WEEK, CALLING ON BORIS JOHNSON TO HOLD OFF ON LIFTING RESTRICTIONS. I ASKED HER WHAT SHE THINKS OF FREEDOM DAY. I'M EXTREMELY CONCERNED ABOUT IT. I'M REALLY ACTUALLY CONCERNED EVEN ABOUT THE SITUATION NOW, BEFORE WE REOPEN ON MONDAY. WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF WHAT IS A CRISIS. WE'RE HAVING MORE THAN 50,000 CASES DAILY. OUR HOSPITALISATIONS HAVE GONE UP, AND ONLY ABOUT HALF THE POPULATION ARE FULLY VACCINATED. AND WE ARE BEING TOLD THAT WE ARE GOING TO VERY LIKELY HAVE MILLIONS OF CASES OVER THE COMING WEEKS, AND OUR CASES WILL REACH A HEIGHT OF 100,000 CASES A DAY. AND PREDOMINANTLY THIS IS GOING TO AFFECT YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE, WHILE NOT SUSCEPTIBLE TO SERIOUS DISEASE, THEY ARE SUSCEPTIBLE TO LONG COVID, AND WILL LEAVE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WITH CHRONIC ILLNESS, AND POTENTIALLY MANY WITH CHRONIC DISABILITY. AND, OF COURSE, THIS IS ALREADY PUTTING UNSUSTAINABLE PRESSURE ON MANY OF THE HOSPITALS WHO ARE HAVING TO FURTHER TEAM CARE AND CARE FOR CANCER PATIENTS, WHICH WILL FURTHER ADD TO THE BILLIONS ALREADY WAITING FOR HEALTH CARE. TALK TO US A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT YOUR CONCERNS WITH REGARDS TO YOUNG PEOPLE CONTRACTING LONG COVID BECAUSE, OF COURSE, FROM WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT COVID-19 AT THE MOMENT, YOUNG PEOPLE CAN CONTRACT THE VIRUS, BUT GENERALLY SPEAKING, THE EFFECTS AREN'T AS SERIOUS AS THEY CAN BE FOR OLDER PEOPLE. YES, I MEAN, LONG COVID IS SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN COMPLETELY DISMISSED, I THINK, FROM OUR POLICY AND NOT CONSIDERED AT ALL, WHICH IS REALLY VERY WORRYING. WE KNOW THAT ABOUT 10% OF YOUNG PEOPLE GO ON TO DEVELOP SYMPTOMS FOR 12 WEEKS OR MORE. AND WE KNOW THAT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THESE WILL HAVE SYMPTOMS IN SIX MONTHS OR ONE YEAR OR LONGER. SO, CURRENTLY WE HAVE ABOUT 33,000 CHILDREN WHO ARE LIVING WITH LONG COVID, AND OF THOSE, 9,000 HAVE HAD SYMPTOMS FOR MORE THAN A YEAR. SO FOR THEM, THIS IS NOT THE FLU. THIS IS A DISEASE THAT'S DEBILITATING. AND WE KNOW THAT SARS-COV-2 IS NOT A VIRUS THAT JUST AFFECTS THE LUNGS. WE KNOW THAT EVEN IN YOUNG PEOPLE, IT CAN AFFECT MULTIPLE ORGANS, INCLUDING THE KIDNEY, THE HEART, THE LUNGS, AND IN YOUNG ADULTS WE KNOW IT CAN EVEN AFFECT THE BRAIN. SO WE NEED TO BE VERY, VERY CAUTIOUS ABOUT EXPOSING OUR CHILDREN TO MASS INFECTION, WHICH IS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE UK RIGHT NOW, PARTICULARLY WHEN WE HAVE SAFE AND EFFECTIVE VACCINES AVAILABLE. IT MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE FOR OUR GOVERNMENT TO BE GOING FOR THIS STRATEGY OF HYBRID HERD IMMUNITY, HALF THROUGH VACCINATION, AND IN OUR YOUNG PEOPLE, MASS INFECTION, WHEN THEY COULD BE VACCINATED IN A COUPLE OF WEEKS. WHY IS YOUR GOVERNMENT PURSUING FREEDOM DAY? I THINK THAT'S A HUGE QUESTION, AND I THINK I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND IT I MEAN, IT'S CERTAINLY NOT BASED ON ANY OF THE EVIDENCE. THERE IS A SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS ON THIS. I MEAN, WE HAD MORE THAN A THOUSAND SCIENTISTS AND HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS SIGN A LETTER ASKING THE GOVERNMENT TO URGENTLY RECONSIDER AND PROTECT OUR PUBLIC. THE CHAIR OF THE BMA, WHICH IS THE BRITISH MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, HAS COME FORWARD TO EXPRESS SERIOUS CONCERNS, AS HAVE OTHER MEDICAL BODIES LIKE THE ROYAL COLLEGE OF NURSING, AND THE ACADEMY'S ROYAL COLLEGE OF MEDICINE. AND WE HAD A WORLD SUMMIT, AN EMERGENCY SUMMIT ON FRIDAY, WHERE WE HAD INTERNATIONAL EXPERTS CONDEMN THAT STRATEGY AS MURDEROUS AND UNETHICAL. SO, IT'S CURIOUS TO SEE THE GOVERNMENT GOING AHEAD WITH THIS, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE IT'S NOT EVEN IN LINE WITH PUBLIC SENTIMENT. 70% OF OUR PUBLIC WANT TO CONTINUE WEARING MASKS AFTER JULY 19TH. AND MANY PEOPLE ARE VERY CONCERNED ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THIS DECISION HAS BEEN MADE ON IDEOLOGICAL, RATHER THAN PUBLIC HEALTH GROUNDS, AND I'M NOT VERY CLEAR WHO THE GOVERNMENT IS LISTENING TO AT THIS POINT IN TIME. I MEAN, BRITAIN HAS A MUCH HIGHER VACCINATION RATE THAN COUNTRIES LIKE NZ. SO WHEN CAN COUNTRIES LIKE BRITAIN, WHERE VACCINES HAVE BEEN AVAILABLE FOR ADULTS FOR A LONG TIME NOW, FULLY DROP THEIR COVID-19 RESTRICTIONS? SO I THINK IT CAN'T JUST BE BASED ON VACCINATION. WE KNOW, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ISRAEL, WHICH HAS HAD A MUCH HIGHER RATE OF VACCINATION, FULL VACCINATION IN THEIR POPULATION, AND THEY'VE BEEN VERY, VERY CAUTIOUS ABOUT REOPENING. SO, THEY HAD MANDATORY MASKS INDOORS AND OUTDOORS, UNTIL RECENTLY, AND VERY GOOD MITIGATIONS IN SCHOOLS. AND EVEN THEY, WHEN THE DELTA VARIANT ENTERED THEIR COUNTRY, HAVE SEEN OUTBREAKS NOW, INCLUDING IN VACCINATED PEOPLE, AND HAVE REINTRODUCED MITIGATIONS, INCLUDING MASKS IN INDOOR ENVIRONMENTS, IN SCHOOLS, AND ARE RUSHING TO NOW VACCINATE THEIR ADOLESCENTS, WHERE A LOT OF THIS SPREAD IS HAPPENING. AND I THINK WE HAVE TO KEEP THAT IN MIND. VACCINES ARE NOT THE ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS. AND I THINK, ONE, WE NEED TO VACCINATE MANY, MANY MORE PEOPLE THAN WE HAVE. SO, I THINK TWO DOSES NEED TO BE OFFERED TO ALL ELIGIBLE PEOPLE, INCLUDING ADOLESCENTS. BUT EVEN IF YOU VACCINATE ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE, IT'S VERY LIKELY WE'RE STILL GOING TO SEE TRANSMISSION, SIMPLY BECAUSE WE HAVE A HIGHLY TRANSMISSIBLE VARIANT THAT ALSO SHOWS A LEVEL OF ESCAPE AGAINST VACCINES WHEN IT COMES TO INFECTION AND TRANSMISSION. AND THAT MEANS THAT WE NEED MITIGATION. SO WE NEED TO ACTUALLY START INVESTING IN VENTILATION IN SCHOOLS AND WORKPLACES IN THE LONGER TERM, AND IN AN INDOOR ENVIRONMENT, BRING BACK MASK MANDATES AND REALLY IMPROVE OUR SURVEILLANCE, TEST, TRACE, AND ISOLATE SYSTEMS, BRING COMMUNITY TRANSMISSION RIGHT DOWN, AND KEEP IT DOWN. I THINK WE NEED A MULTI-PRONGED STRATEGY, NOT A SINGLE-VACCINE BASED ONE. THE VIRUS CONTINUES TO MUTATE, HAVE RICH AND DEVELOPED COUNTRIES WHERE VACCINES ARE AVAILABLE, EFFECTIVELY SHOT THEMSELVES IN THE FOOT, BY PRIORITISING THEIR OWN VACCINATIONS, OVER TRYING TO SLOW THE VIRUS IN POORER, HIGH DENSITY COUNTRIES? I MEAN, ABSOLUTELY NO COUNTRY IS SAFE UNTIL ALL COUNTRIES ARE SAFE. WE KNOW THAT. AND UNLESS THERE IS A GLOBAL RESPONSE TO THE PANDEMIC, BE IT ELIMINATION, OR VACCINATION, OR IDEALLY BOTH, WE'RE ALL GOING TO BE IN TROUBLE. I MEAN, WHAT WE'VE SEEN FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS PANDEMIC IS EVERY FEW MONTHS THERE'S A NEW VARIANT THAT APPEARS TO EVOLVE THAT IS EITHER MORE TRANSMISSIBLE, OR MORE SEVERE, OR BOTH. AND NOW EVEN MORE ABLE TO ESCAPE VACCINES. AND THIS IS A HUGE GAMBLE AND THREAT. AND A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE TREATED THIS AS INEVITABLE, BUT IT'S NOT INEVITABLE. THIS VIRUS EVOLVES WHEN IT'S ALLOWED TO TRANSMIT. AND IF WE REALLY STOP TRANSMISSION LIKE WE HAVE, OR LIMIT TRANSMISSION LIKE WE HAVE IN MANY ELIMINATION ZONES, IT WON'T EVOLVE. AND IT'S THE ONLY WAY TO ACTUALLY PROTECT OUR VACCINE RESOURCES, AND KEEP AHEAD OF THE VIRUS. BUT THERE NEEDS TO BE GLOBAL EQUITY IN THIS. I MEAN, WE KNOW THAT MOST COUNTRIES THAT ARE SEEING HUGE SURGES RIGHT NOW, HAVE THE MAJORITY OF THEIR POPULATION NOT VACCINATED AT THIS POINT IN TIME. AND IT'S VERY EASY FOR A NEW VARIANT TO EVOLVE. BUT, YOU KNOW, IT'S POSSIBLE, EVEN IN THE UK, WHERE HIGH TRANSMISSION IS CONTINUING ALONGSIDE A PARTIALLY VACCINATED POPULATION, WHICH ACTUALLY PROVIDES THE MOST FERTILE CONDITIONS FOR A VIRUS ADAPTATION TO ESCAPE. AND WERE A VARIANT TO EVOLVE THAT'S ABLE TO ESCAPE VACCINES EVEN MORE, IT WOULD HAVE HUGE IMPACTS, NOT JUST FOR THE UK STRATEGY, BUT GLOBALLY. HERE IN NZ, WE'VE PERSUED AN ELIMINATION STRATEGY. AND WE HAVE NO COVID-19 TRANSMISSION IN THE COMMUNITY AT THE MOMENT. OUR BORDERS ARE EFFECTIVELY CLOSED AT THE MOMENT, BUT THE MAJORITY OF THE ADULT POPULATION SHOULD BE VACCINATED BY THE END OF THIS YEAR. AND THERE'S DEBATE ABOUT WHAT WE SHOULD DO WITH OUR BORDER RESTRICTIONS. WHAT WOULD BE YOUR ADVICE TO NZ? I THINK IT'S A VERY, VERY DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER, BECAUSE OUR CURRENT EVIDENCE, AND I THINK THE CONSENSUS AMONGST SCIENTISTS SUGGESTS THAT EVEN IF YOU VACCINATE 100% OF YOUR POPULATION, WHICH IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN, OBVIOUSLY, BECAUSE THERE WILL BE LIMITATIONS OF ELIGIBILITY AND UPTAKE, YOU'RE UNLIKELY TO REACH HERD IMMUNITY, BY WHICH I MEAN YOU'RE UNLIKELY TO REACH A POINT IN TIME THAT IF YOU LIFT ALL RESTRICTIONS, THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE TRANSMISSION. THERE WILL VERY LIKELY BE TRANSMISSION, WHICH MEANS THAT EVEN ELIMINATION ZONES WILL HAVE TO KEEP OTHER MITIGATIONS IN PLACE IF THEY ARE TO OPEN UP FULLY. I THINK THE BEST STRATEGY HERE IS A GLOBALLY COORDINATED RESPONSE, WHICH IS ELIMINATION, SO THAT WE CAN BUILD GREEN CORRIDORS WITH COUNTRIES THAT HAVE ALSO ELIMINATED THE VIRUS. I DON'T HONESTLY SEE HOW WE CAN LIVE WITH THIS VIRUS, AND STAY AHEAD OF VIRUS ADAPTATION, IF MANY COUNTRIES CONTINUE THIS RHETORIC OF LIVING WITH THE VIRUS AND ALLOWING HIGH LEVELS OF TRANSMISSION. IT'S SIMPLY NOT POSSIBLE. EVERYONE HAS TO, AT THIS POINT IN TIME, ADMIT THAT ELIMINATION IS THE ONLY WAY FORWARD. AND WE NEED TO COORDINATE ON THIS GLOBALLY, WHICH MEANS SHARING RESOURCES, INCLUDING VACCINES WITH COUNTRIES THAT DON'T HAVE THEM, AND SUPPORTING THEM WITH ELIMINATION IN WHATEVER WAY POSSIBLE. AFTER THE BREAK ` DAYS FROM THE START OF THE OLYMPIC GAMES, HOW DO PEOPLE IN JAPAN FEEL ABOUT OLYMPIC VISITORS IMPORTING THE VIRUS? WHILE THOUSANDS OF NZERS HAVE COME HOME, MANY OTHERS ARE DOING IT TOUGH IN COUNTRIES GRAPPLING WITH ANOTHER SURGE OF COVID-19. AS SHE DID BACK IN MARCH, REPORTER WHENA OWEN HAS ONCE AGAIN BEEN CHECKING IN WITH KIWIS ABROAD ` IN UGANDA, WHERE THE SITUATION IS DIRE; IN JAPAN, WHERE COVID INFECTIONS HAVE HIT A HIGH; AND IN TAIWAN, WHERE A KIWI EXPAT HAS A SALUTARY MESSAGE. (UPBEAT MUSIC) HELLO, I'M GEOFF WALKER FROM THE WAIRARAPA IN NZ, AND AT THE MOMENT I'M LIVING IN GULU, NORTHERN UGANDA, GULU IS A MARKER FOR UGANDA. I MEAN, WE'VE GOT ONE OF THE HIGHEST INFECTION RATES NOW. TWO WEEKS AGO, THE TESTING RATE FOR POSITIVE WAS 30% IN GULU. SO THAT'S A VERY HIGH TESTING-POSITIVE RATE, AND PEOPLE ARE DYING. (INTRIGUING MUSIC) ON MONDAY, I JUST BURIED A FRIEND, A DOCTOR OF PSYCHOLOGY, WHO WE'D BEEN WORKING WITH LAST YEAR A LOT, WHO HAD COVID AND IT TOOK HIM A MONTH PASS AWAY, AND IT DESTROYED HIS LUNGS. SO HERE IT'S SERIOUS. IT'S REALLY SERIOUS. COUNTRIES LIKE UGANDA, WHICH ARE NOW SUFFERING SERIOUSLY, ARE UNABLE TO GET VACCINES. THERE'S ONLY BEEN 1 MILLION VACCINES, WHICH IS ENOUGH FOR 500,000 PEOPLE, IN 45 MILLION. LAST YEAR, PEOPLE WERE DYING OF STARVATION, YOU KNOW, LITERALLY, AND THE EFFECTS OF THE LOCKDOWN RATHER THAN COVID. OF COURSE, PEOPLE DON'T HAVE ACCESS TO FOOD. THEY DON'T HAVE MONEY. YOU KNOW, PEOPLE LIVE DAY-TO-DAY. WHEN YOUR ABILITY TO EARN GOES, YOUR ABILITY TO EAT GOES. (INTRIGUING MUSIC) KIA ORA. MY NAME WAYNE SHENNEN. I'M ORIGINALLY FROM TAURANGA, AND I OWN A WINE BAR IN TOKYO, HERE IN JAPAN. SO AT THE MOMENT I'M CLOSED BECAUSE OF THE COVID RESTRICTIONS. OFFICIALLY WE'RE NOT ALLOWED TO SELL ALCOHOL, SO BEING A NZ WINE BAR, THAT MAKES IT A LITTLE BIT DIFFICULT. IT FEELS THAT NOW THAT PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO LOSE PATIENCE A LITTLE BIT. YOU'LL SEE MORE PEOPLE NOT WEARING MASKS OUT AND ABOUT A LITTLE BIT. THERE'S A LOT OF VENUES, EVEN THOUGH WE'RE NOT OFFICIALLY ALLOWED TO SELL ALCOHOL, THERE ARE A LOT OF PLACES THAT ARE JUST IGNORING THE RULES. (INTRIGUING MUSIC) IT'S A REALLY, REALLY STRANGE SITUATION OVER HERE. THE OLYMPICS ARE NOT BEING TALKED ABOUT BY SO MANY PEOPLE. MOST OF THE PEOPLE THAT I KNOW, IT'S NOT PART OF THE CONVERSATION. IT'S REALLY, REALLY CRAZY. YOU'RE STILL SEE PARAPHERNALIA UP AND AROUND, AND I RECEIVE SOME EMAILS SORT OF SAYING ABOUT 'GET EXCITED, IT'S COMING.' BUT MOST PEOPLE ARE JUST TALKING ABOUT VACCINES IT SEEMS. (UPBEAT MUSIC) HI. I'M RON HANSON, AND I AM FROM WELLINGTON, BUT CURRENTLY LIVE IN TAICHUNG CITY, WHERE I'M A PUBLISHER AND A TEACHER. AS MANY PEOPLE KNOW, WE'VE HAD A REALLY STRONG RUN HERE IN TAIWAN, UNTIL THIS RECENT OUTBREAK. SUDDENLY IN A VERY SHORT SPACE OF TIME, WE WERE AT AROUND OVER 500 CASES A DAY. SO IT WAS A REAL JOLT. AND WE HAD TO INSTANTLY CHANGE OUR ENTIRE APPROACH TO LIFE DURING THIS PANDEMIC. IT IS UNIVERSAL MASK USE. I MEAN, BASICALLY, IF YOU LEAVE THE HOME, YOU'RE WEARING A MASK AT ALL TIMES NOW. AND THERE'S COMPULSORY SCANNING OF QR CODES. IRONICALLY, IN TAIWAN, AROUND THE WORLD, IT'S BEEN OFTEN YOUNGER PEOPLE HAVE BEEN A BIT MORE RECKLESS, WHEREAS IN TAIWAN IT'S ACTUALLY OLDER PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO WEAR MASKS TYPICALLY, WHO ARE LESS LIKELY TO COMPLY WITH THE REGULATIONS. SO THIS TOOK OFF IN AN AREA WHERE THERE WERE A LOT OF OLDER PEOPLE, AND IT'S PARTLY WHY THERE'S UNFORTUNATELY A VERY HIGH DEF RIGHT IN THIS OUTBREAK. SUCCESS, OR LONG STRETCHES OF SUCCESS, CAN SET YOU UP FOR A FALL, AND I HOPE NEW ZEALAND CAN AVOID DOING WHAT WE'VE DONE, BECAUSE WE ` TAIWAN ` HAS HAD AN INCREDIBLE RESPONSE, BUT I DO THINK THAT WE TOOK OUR EYE OFF THE BALL FOR A MOMENT AND IT DIDN'T TAKE MUCH, AND WE HAD A SERIOUS OUTBREAK ON OUR HANDS. SETBACKS TAKE A LONG TIME TO RECOVER FROM, SO... BUT I MEAN, IT'S JUST REALLY A MATTER OF GETTING THAT VACCINATION RATE UP. I MEAN, IT'S WHAT IT ALL COMES DOWN TO THE STAGE, WHERE THAT'S THE ONLY WAY TO CLOSE OUT THIS THING. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. THANKS FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS. THANKS TO THE Q+A TEAM. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY PHOEBE UPTON AND FAITH HAMBLYN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2021.