- Today on Newshub Nation ` it doesn't get much bigger than this; Presidents Biden, Putin and Xi. The APEC Leaders Meeting chaired overnight by our Prime Minister with a surprise twist. - New Zealand's domain name among the most exploited in the world for child abuse. Anna Bracewell-Worrall investigates. - Will our pandemic poor performer be our digital reformer? Minister David Clark joins us live. - And in a week when farmers took their tractors to town in protest, we explore the rural-urban divide. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 - Tena tatou katoa. I'm Simon Shepherd. - And I'm Tova O'Brien. Welcome to Newshub Nation. Ko nga pitopito korero i te Whare Paremata, in political news this week ` - Quarantine-free travel to Victoria is paused until Monday ` the Australian state into a snap five-day lockdown following the re-emergence of COVID in the community. Travel to New South Wales also remains on hold. - The Reserve Bank is keeping the official cash rate steady at 0.25%. An increase is expected later this year to combat rising inflation, which has hit a 10-year high of 3.3%. - And the government is pumping a $2.5 billion sweetener into its Three Waters proposal to get local councils on board. Under the scheme, management of New Zealand's water would be amalgamated under four regional entities from 2024. - An extraordinary two-hour meeting of world leaders was held overnight, chaired by Jacinda Ardern. - Presidents Biden and Putin came to the party ` the first time in APEC history there has been a second meeting at leaders' level. - But, as Conor Whitten can reveal, after China confirmed on Thursday he would be there, President Xi Jinping actually beamed in pre-recorded. - A meeting of the heavyweights of Asia-Pacific ` not face-to-face but screen-to-screen. This is socially-distanced diplomacy, hosted last night by Jacinda Ardern. - We're gathering today at an exceptionally difficult time for our region. - 21 APEC members brought together by crisis and, among them, superpowers who rarely agree ` US President Joe Biden, Russia's Vladimir Putin and Chinese President Xi Jinping. - Amongst all the uncertainty we face, I believe there is one notion that will always be true, and that is, ultimately, we are all in this together. - COVID's running rife in Asia-Pacific ` more than 100,000 new cases are still recorded everyday. Indonesia's in the midst of a deadly outbreak. Malaysia and Thailand are suffering too. Their citizens need vaccination badly. At APEC, vaccines are the top of the list. - This is the overriding focus for APEC and the world. - Leaders have agreed to lower tariffs on vaccines and pandemic supplies ` some face tariffs of up to 20%. But it won't happen yet ` the deadline November, when APEC leaders meet again. Why isn't that happening now? - From our perspective, we'd want to see tariffs on vaccines waived as soon as possible. - Ardern set a series of targets for APEC ` speeding up vaccines at the border, discussing travel bubbles, vaccine passports, even an end to fossil fuel subsidies. All of them will have to wait. - The purpose of today wasn't about specific announceables necessarily from individual nations. - Chinese President Xi didn't get the memo ` the only leader to make an announcement ` setting up his own APEC COVID fund. So is China upstaging the rest of APEC? - No, not at all. - It wasn't China's only broadside. Newshub Nation understands President Xi didn't attend the virtual meeting. Instead, his speech was pre-recorded, unlike Presidents Biden and Putin, who stayed for the two-and-a-half-hour call. It's the first Leaders Meeting outside November ` a success in itself for Jacinda Ardern. - Yeah, that's big. I mean, those guys have got massive diaries, all worked out well in advance. So to get all that sorted is quite an achievement. - Alan Bollard used to run APEC in Singapore. - And given the tensions between US and China, and some of the other tensions, it's become more important than ever. - In the next few months, the stakes are high. APEC is more about discussion than decisions, and today, the only concrete announcement came from China, acting alone. It means the measure of progress at APEC is kicked down the road to November this year. With the pandemic raging across the region, Asia-Pacific needs actions not words. - An unorthodox APEC Leaders Retreat ` here to recode it for us and translate the diplomatic speak, an APEC aficionado with eight APECs under her belt as Prime Minister; former PM Helen Clark. Tena koe. - Hi. - Thank you for joining us. Biden, Putin and Xi ` that is a hell of a dinner party. A lot of diplomatic plates to spin for Jacinda Ardern. You've been there. How tough are those diplomatic acrobatics? - Well, obviously, much more challenging in the digital sphere. I did go to eight, starting with one held in Brunei in 2000. It was a privilege to be there, obviously, to represent New Zealand. You were always conscious that you were the smallest kid on the block, along with Brunei. But what an incredible opportunity to rub shoulders with leaders of hugely significant countries. (CHUCKLES) Some still there, by the way ` President Putin was there when I was there. He stepped sideways to be PM for a while, and now back at president. So some things don't change, but no, amazing to be there in person. It's just such a pity we haven't got that this year. - It is, and as journos, I remember, at APECs, we'd always seize on those little moments. You know, a PM talks to Vladimir Putin over the Brussels sprouts ` what does it all mean? How` How... How much of a bane is it, I suppose, to not have those face-to-face moments and to do it all virtually? - Well, you don't get to know people the same way as you would when you were rubbing shoulders over the coffee cups or you're formally seated next to someone for a dinner or lunch. There would also be what were called formal pull-asides. So I remember, in 2006, I think it was, I was deputed to pull aside George Bush formally at morning tea, and he knew that I was to formally pull him aside. So there were always those dynamics on the side. But what was also good about the sessions was that there were only leaders in the room, and actually your staff didn't communicate with you. You were in there with the other leaders. You had your notes, of course. You made your contribution. There was a listening room, but you didn't have officials in your ear all the time. So you were able to try and build that relationship around the table. - And what can we read into this revelation from Conor Whitten that Xi Jinping wasn't actually there? He was effectively a cardboard cut-out at the meeting. - Mm. Well, who knows? Who knows whether it was schedule? Who knows whether it was a deliberate decision? I mean, it would have been great if he'd participated personally, obviously, but that wasn't to be, but significant that everybody else showed. - And is that a power play from China as well, announcing that $3 billion COVID fund ` the only country to announce anything this APEC. - Well, I mean, good that they have, because the need is great. I've spent most of the past year working on COVID with the inquiry for the World Health Assembly, and we are so behind on vaccine roll-out globally. There's countries` many countries around the world where the health workforce isn't covered yet, and yet they're dealing with COVID patients who are very ill. So, yeah, it all helps. - As well as not being able to have those face-to-face moments, another big loss ` even though we saved a lot of money doing this virtually ` is the promotion for New Zealand, right? Being able to sell brand New Zealand around the world. But even if we could do that, we wouldn't be able to lure tourist because no one's allowed it. So should they have been more of a focus this APEC on vaccine passports, on creating those green zones, on opening up? - Well, I think it's good that this special meeting was held because, in the annual leaders meeting, there's a much wider agenda, and it is an economic and trade agenda for the most part. So the issues, such as you just mentioned, would probably not have had the prominence they could have had, or otherwise they would have completely taken over the other issues, and you wouldn't have got to those. - Is there still a risk that might happen come November? - Well, the pandemic will still be raging in November, so there's still that risk. But I think, probably, the leaders will feel they've got most of us out of the way now and they can focus on the economic and trade issues. Having said that, I remember once at APEC leading the discussion on HIV. And people might say, 'Why were you discussing that at APEC?' It impacts on economies. If you have runaway pandemics, obviously, as we know, it impacts on economies. So you must address issues that are relevant to economies. - Which is a great point, and do you think that, given the economic focus at APEC, we end up, perhaps, shirking calling out human rights abuses ` for example, the situation in Xinjiang. Should that come up at these leader-to-leader APEC meetings as well? - So, they don't, because the focus is economic and trade. - But as you say, there's a flow-on, right? - Well, there's always a flow-on. Where they will come up is in the bilaterals. And having been Kiwi PM and gone to Beijing and delivered these messages, what I know is if you have a bilateral or you have an official visit to such a country, you have to raise the issues ` A, because it's important to you; B, because it's important to your country; and C, because you know when you come out of that meeting, Tova O'Brien, or whoever the journalist is, is going to say, 'Did you raise this?' You must raise it. And frankly, if you don't raise it, they would think that you're not taking it seriously. So you must raise it. - And we've always` New Zealand has always walked that tightrope, haven't we, between the United States and China? The Prime Minister delivered a foreign policy speech in the last week, and commentators are saying, although it wasn't anti-China, it was pro-US. Do you think that we've struck the right balance or should we be going further, like perhaps Australia has with its rhetoric around China? - So, here's the issue ` if you look at political system and values, we are a Western country. We have a democratic society, free speech. You know, we take human rights issues seriously. On the other hand, we live in a world where China is a major economic power and force, not only in our region but in the world. So every country looks at how do you manage these differences, whether it's Norway, New Zealand, the Netherlands, Germany. It's almost how do you chew gum and walk at the same time. So you have to stand for your principles and values, and you will make common cause with like-minded countries. But the reality also is that you must deal with China. China isn't going away. It's a major force, it's made a contribution to our prosperity. So we have to walk that line. - Do you think` I mean, we've seen Labour backbench MP Louisa Wall ` she's gone further than her own government, broken lockstep with the Labour Party and gone further with the anti-China rhetoric. Do you think that that's a refreshing approach or do you think that she should stay in line? - Well, backbenchers always have more leeway, right? They can say things that prime ministers couldn't because of the impact on relationships, so` - So is it good for Ardern to have a Louisa Wall or is it bad? - (LAUGHS) Well, as leader, you always prefer that your backbenchers say less rather than more, obviously, having dealt with a lot in my time. - Thank you so much for your time this morning, Helen Clark. Kia ora. - Thanks. - If you've got a news tip, get in touch ` we're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. E whai ake nei, we've got even more Clark ` next up, Minister David Clark. But first, why is New Zealand's domain name amongst the worst in the world for images of child abuse? Anna Bracewell-Worrall with a shocking investigation. For the first time, Newshub Nation can reveal a global count found thousands of links hosting child sexual abuse material using the .nz domain. - And Twitter is being used to openly share the exploitative material hosted on the New Zealand-based data storage site Mega.nz. Anna Bracewell-Worrall with this exclusive report. - The open trade of child sexual abuse images. Every couple of minutes, a new tweet promising links to the worst content imaginable, all advertised using the hashtag #megalinks. - This is about young children and even toddlers and babies who are being raped and abused. And people are paying for that content, and people are profiting from sharing that content. - The hashtag refers to data site Mega, headquartered here in New Zealand. Some of its servers are here, too. - It's not something that's only overseas, and we can close our eyes to it. - It's not just overseas. Some child sexual abuse material is produced in New Zealand, and it's certainly viewed. A government filtering system blocks more than 10,000 attempts to access known child sexual abuse sites from within New Zealand every month, police, customs and the Department of Internal Affairs all tasked with stopping the abusers. - Well, they have to be aware of the harm that they are causing to the children when this material is being produced. They will be held accountable. - In April a global count found thousands of links using the .nz domain are hosting child sexual abuse material. There were 2503 URLs using .nz, making it the fourth most common domain for child sexual abuse material, after .com, .net and .ru ` that's Russia. The .nz domain has come up so highly because of Mega. - At Mega's headquarters here in Central Auckland, director Steven Hall rubbishes the report. - Well, frankly, I don't think it's much use or relevance at all, apart from the fact that they've mixed some misleading statistics together. - Hall says others are also using the .nz domain name for child abuse material, that it's not just Mega. The Internet Watch Foundation told Newshub Nation its data is accurate, and that one URL can contain hundreds, even thousands of illegal images or videos. Do you accept that Mega.nz is being used to host child abuse material? - I accept that every platform in the world has child abuse material on it. That's a well-known fact. - Mega has a team that closes reported accounts. They say in the past eight years they've closed more than half a million accounts for sharing child sexual abuse content. And authorities say they are good to work with that. - Bad people tend to share stuff with other bad people, but good people find it and report it to us. That's unfortunate, if a good person comes across this material. The concern is, if Mega was shut down, abusers could find somewhere else to hide their material, perhaps somewhere that doesn't cooperate with police as swiftly as Mega does. But child advocates say Mega could be doing much more. Mega is the evolution of Megaupload, founded by German-Finnish entrepreneur Kim Dotcom. Wanted for extradition by the United States on fraud charges he denies, Dotcom is no longer involved in Mega's operations, but his family trust still holds some shares. According to the companies register, Mega is mostly owned by Hong Kong company Cloud Tech Services Ltd. It has five directors, three of them New Zealanders ` Shane Te Pou, Wei Wang and Stephen Hall. - Mega is just one of a number of platforms where some of this information and material is hosted. And we work with them to ensure that it is taken down as soon as practicable, once we become aware of it. - Child Alert says encryption is a huge challenge. But security and privacy are core to Mega's service. - Nobody else ` not even Mega ` has access to them. - So you don't think that promises of encryption and of privacy are attractive to people that are trying to hide their illegal activities? - No, the fact that Mega's platform works very well, and that's what attracts most users, a tiny percentage of whom carry out illegal activity. - Twitter told Newshub Nation it aggressively fights child sexual abuse, that it has teams removing that content, and has done a sweep of the Mega-related hashtags we provided to them. But this is after that sweep. 'Pedo mum or family'. 'Looking for son, mum.' There's an image here, a promise here of all ages. This one's really disturbing ` 'trading really young'. Out in the open on Twitter. It's an indication of just how common this is. Anna Bracewell-Worrall, Newshub Nation. - Joining me now is the Digital Economy Minister, who has the task of shaping our future economy. So lots to talk about. But David Clark is also the Digital Communications Minister. Welcome to the show. Can we first address the issues raised in Anna's story there? Some of the worst images imaginable hosted right here in New Zealand, on some of the servers here. Can the government be doing more to stop this? - Look, I think most New Zealanders would find this absolutely abhorrent. And it is something that government is very actively engaged in. There's a child exploitation team set up in the Department of Internal Affairs. It's well established, international links as well as obviously links with police and others, the intelligence agencies in New Zealand. That is something that is an ongoing challenge for all developed countries, and something this government takes incredibly seriously. - OK, but what about the companies themselves, like Mega and, say, Twitter was alerted by Anna, and they took them down, then more popped up. Are they shirking their responsibilities, those companies? - I think, as I understand it, these companies are absolutely committed to working with law enforcement agencies as material is exposed or brought to light. And that's appropriate, and I think everyone would expect that. - Sure, but can they be more proactive? Is there a way that they can get ahead of the curve, rather than being notified by stuff and then taking it down? - Again, this is actually outside of my strict area, obviously, but my understanding is that those companies are working actively on how that can identify that material. And we would expect that, I think. It's absolutely critical. The digital harm space ` I mean, there's obviously lots of opportunities in the digital economy` - Which we'll talk about soon. - Digital harm is something we would all expect to be doing more on, as we can. And you look at the way in with the government, with the Christchurch Call, has taken global leadership on addressing online violence and so on, this space is really important. And New Zealand's ethical reputation is important. - OK. Back in 2014, you were quite a strident person in terms of tax avoidance by these digital companies. You called for Facebook maybe to be shut down, and likened it to a paedophile website. Where's that David Clark now? Are you sort of beholden to these digital companies now? You can't force them to do things? - Look, I absolutely refute that and also challenge some of the statements that were made at the time. But, look, it's important we hold these companies to account. I will go back to that Christchurch Call. There the Prime Minister has taken global leadership, called together the leaders of those tech companies, with Emmanuel Macron, and now we have Joe Biden coming on board with that call, tackling extremism in all its forms, and asking these tech companies, working with these tech companies to take seriously the challenge of the content that they host. - Sure. The next step, though is encryption. Some of these companies are saying ` like, Facebook is going go say we're going to encrypt Facebook Messenger, and that's just going to drive it even more underground. Britain's trying to lobby Facebook not to do that. Should we be joining them? Like, through the Christchurch Call, through Jacinda Ardern, should we be lobbying Facebook not to go encrypted? - Look, I think privacy is also important, and security and safety online, and I'm sure we'll come to that in the interview. Making sure that these systems are not protecting criminals is equally a part of the issue, and working with the companies` - Privacy also makes the rape and torture of children being traded online invisible, doesn't it? - We've just agreed ` or I've agreed as minister ` to sign up to the Budapest Convention, which was one of the recommendations out of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into the mosque attacks. That enables agencies across jurisdictions to access concerning material and to bring prosecutions. - But we were late to sign that. That's just a recent thing. That's been around for quite a while, the Budapest Convention. - Well, it's something that's happened very quickly since my time in the role, I have to say. - All right, well, let's move on to cyberattacks, then ` another part of the digital communications issue. It's a real problem, right? We're not immune. We've seen the Waikato DHB. We can't really protect ourselves against this. I mean, the US has its nuclear arsenal cyberattacked. - More and more people are online. That's the reality of the situation. We watched it through lockdown, as people got into Zoom meetings, as people did their bank online. There are a lot of advantages in being online. Schoolwork was able to be done online. And as more people are online, criminals are seeing the opportunity as well. - So what concrete actions are you taking to keep our cyber borders safe? - Well, last budget, 2020, the Government put $140-odd million into the intelligence agencies. Over $100 million of that was directed towards GCSB. And the majority of that, the biggest portion, went towards cybercrime. So it is something we take incredibly seriously. Cortex, the Government's tools to support our big economic exporters, there's an estimate that that's saved $170 million in lost productivity. So we are taking this incredibly seriously. - But it's very hard, though, isn't it? Because, you know, we're kidding ourselves. We're a small country down the bottom of the Earth, you know, the US nuclear arsenal gets hacked. Quantum computing is around the corner, where computing power is just going up tremendously. Are we kidding ourselves? - I'll go back to the opportunity here, and the fact that people are online more and more. Look, the digital economy is growing rapidly in New Zealand. Gaming companies ` every job is worth over $400,000 in export revenue. We've got a growing economy here. People are online. And the challenge is to keep them safe. - You just brought up gaming. Now, gaming has been growing 40% year on year. Are they doing it by themselves, though? Because if you look at what's happening in Australia, they're bringing in a 40% tax rebate for new gaming start-ups. Is that something that you could match, to encourage it? Otherwise we're going to lose all the talent. - The industry is working together with government on the industry transformation plan. And one of things there is looking at how the settings are here. The New Zealand Game Developers Association is working with government, to work out that we've got the right settings. Currently, we've got more people working in that sector per capita than Australia. So, we've got about 800 working; they've got about 1300 at last count. We want to keep that advantage, because we see the opportunity. - OK, what are you doing? - So, as I say, the industry transformation plan` - I mean, so, the Aussies are going 40% tax rebate. Can we do that? - Well, you know, that came out as a budget announcement. It's not implemented in Australia for another year yet. They've announced it well ahead. - That's good. That's what they're doing. What are you doing? - We will be looking very closely at those settings, because, you know, this is a big opportunity. And as you noted at the outset, Simon, these companies that have been growing rapidly are all on their own. - Exactly. - Everybody sees the size of the opportunity. We know about the Xeros of this world. We know about the Vends. - OK, we don't want that talent to go to Aussie, which we're going to talk about in a moment. But, you know, this tech industry is going to be our biggest export industry probably by 2030. It's the big gold rush, right? You've got to be on board this. But we're only just developing, like, an AI strategy now. Are we behind the times? - Well, actually, no. Australia ` I was talking with the minister there the other day ` was looking to New Zealand in terms of our algorithm charter, which is world-leading, the AI work we're doing, and looking at New Zealand's trusted brand. And they actually want to have conversations with us to see what they can learn from New Zealand on that. That's really fair, because we do have a trusted brand. Look, our cyber companies here are being bought up by overseas companies who recognise we've got this strong brand. We want to continue to grow our brand as a strong ethical country, because we think as a great AI leader, we can bring something for the world. - OK, but what are you going to do to make sure when the AI gold rush comes that we're not just going to increase the rich-poor divide? Because people who have the technology will be even richer, and who people have low-paying jobs will just get displaced. - Really good question. We think that the whole of New Zealand needs to be a part of this. And so that means inclusion. A part of my digital strategy, actually, that the Prime Minister asked me to work on, inclusion is coming through as a very strong theme. - Does that get Maori and Pasifika economies involved in this? Because they're not really engaged at the moment. - Yeah, I was actually speaking with the Data Iwi Leaders Group, that I engage with, recently. And they were saying some of their people are doing really well. Others, it's like a wave, and they want to ride the wave, but some of them don't yet have their boards in the water. That analogy is very apt. - So you have to get the boards to these people. - So there are programmes like Manaiakalani, which I've been and visited at Point England School, where a decile one school thriving in the digital space. We know there are recipes that can work, and we want to work out how we can just support more of those. - Just quickly, one of the biggest problems is the workforce, OK. So, the IT sector imports so many people for the new tech jobs ` at least half of them. That tap's turned off now, and so we're having trouble, aren't we? We've got Aussies coming over and saying we'll give graduates 200 grand to come over here. They're going to try to take our talent. We can't import talent. How are we going to get the workforce to actually do this? - Again, I do want to thank industry who have been working really constructively in this industry transformation plan. They have said, from their own work, that what we don't have here is a skill shortage, what we have is a skills mismatch. We've got a lot of people coming through our school system, and we want to make sure they have appropriate skills that put them right with the jobs. And the industry is committed to helping with that pathway. All right. Just one quick question before you go. You're the Digital Economy Minister. Do you have any cryptocurrency? - (LAUGHS) I don't, myself. It's a real case of buyer beware, as far as cryptocurrency goes. - Should we have confidence in you as the Digital Economy Minister if you don't have any cryptocurrency? - Well, I think, as I say, buyer beware. There are really mixed reports around this. I note there's a select committee looking into it, which I think is great. - OK. All right. Thank you very much for your time, David Clark. - Thank you. All right. Coming up, the news and politics of the week with our panel, Professor Jennifer Curtin and digital editor Finn Hogan. But first, we check in with farmers, following extraordinary scenes around the country this week. - Hoki mai ano. A familiar scene yesterday as furious farmers took to the streets to vent their frustration at government regulation. Let's take a look. (ROCK MUSIC) - We're getting sick of being bullied. The rules keep moving. Every day, we think we're there, and something else happens, and we're sick of it. - The government's electric vehicle rebate scheme, dubbed 'the ute tax'... - We've been Jacinda-ed! - It's come from just the sheer amount of regulations and costs that are impacting the farming sector. - You've actually got a group of Pakeha farmers from down south who have always pushed back against the idea that they should observe any kind of regulation. - We can't just sit back and do nothing. We have to push back. - People have worked for a long time to get property, and to have someone take it away is heartbreaking. (DOGS BARK) (HORNS BEEP) - It's like we're bad citizens, you know, the way we're getting treated. - You know, I think people forget who` where their food comes from. - Would you say we've seen the protesters being respectful? - Um, I've seen one or two signs that aren't. - There's plenty of us that aren't anti some of the regulations, and we're just quietly getting on and doing the things that need to be done. - If that wasn't an emerging political flashpoint, I don't know what is. Dr Tim Mackle from DairyNZ, thank you for joining us this morning. Tena koe. Why didn't you go to the Groundswell protests yesterday? - Kia ora, Tova. Well, look, this is a farmer-led initiative, and we've all got different roles, and we work closely with the government to try and influence the settings, get the right policy. We've got that programme underway with them at the same time. This is a different initiative, and farmers were out there in full voice yesterday. - How constructive is it to have utes hooning around with signs like 'black utes matter' and 'Jacinda is a communist bitch'? - Yeah, look, I, personally, I think, you know, personal attacks are not appropriate. I think you'll find a lot of farmers feel that too, as well. So, you know, I think one of the key things here, Tova, is there is a diversity of views out there in the farming community, just like any population. - So, is this representative of farmers? - I think that it's representative of a growing frustration out there at what they see as a tsunami of regulation. You saw that there was a placard yesterday, I think, that said 'regulation saturation', so that probably sums it for how they're feeling. - There was also a placard, though, that said 'stop ramming Maori language down our throats.' What's our indigenous language got to do with freshwater or emissions? - Yeah, look, I agree with that actually, personally. So I don't think that's a key issue at all for the majority of farmers out there. I think there's a lot` If you look at the spectrum of farmers, there are those who are actually running at this stuff. We've got about 200 or 300 of our own environment leaders a cadre of people ` not easy, but they're doing things out in the regions, whether it be on their farm, in the community, or with councils. - Totally. - You've got people who are dragging their feet, who are putting their head in the sand. You've got this silent majority in the middle. But what you're seeing is the silent majority is starting to move forward and express their voice. - But I wonder how the progressive farmers that you're talking about there, the kind of environmental trailblazers, how much are their efforts being undermined by those other, more extreme elements that we saw at the Groundswell protests? - Yeah, I mean, look, we'll see. I mean, I guess the key thing about the Groundswell protest ` everyone wants to jump in it. You had anti-5G people wanting to be there, anti-vaxxers, all sorts of things. So that's not fair on the farmers who are organising it, either. So let's just put that on the table. So if` - This w was more a kind of home for anti-government sentiment in general. - Well, it seemed` What I picked up from talking to various people ahead of it, yes, that was happening. That was a concern the farmers had, because they wanted to express their views very clear ` the frustration that there's been one thing after another. And so that's really where they're coming from. - And we saw National MPs out in force as well. But of late, they've been talking, the party's been talking more about He Puapua, about hate speech, about itself. Do you still see the National Party as a natural home for farmers? - Well, I'm not here to talk politics. I think for us, we have to work with whatever government is in power, and that's what we've been trying to do. - I suppose this government, though, you've got a lot of issues with, right? So is National still the party for farmers? - Well, National is not the party for us right now cos they're not in government, so I think farmers understand that we've got to constructively work with ministers of the day, and that's what we're trying to do. - And there are seven big-ticket demands from the Groundswell protesters, including scrapping the ute car rebate feebate scheme, and also the freshwater water policies. Are those other seven demands, are they realistic? - Well, they're not our policies at DairyNZ. You know, again` - From your perspective, though, are they? - From my perspective, the most simple one's the ute tax. I mean, I opposed it straight away. I challenge the senior minister at the Fieldays and said, 'Come on, it's blatantly unfair, because if you don't have an alternative, 'you're actually being taxed when you have no options.' So on that basis` - And it was bonkers, right? Like, how symbolic did the ute tax end up becoming of this perceived disconnect between the government and farmers? Because in the official advice, it said that the reason they didn't have an exemption for farmers ` the couldn't define them. The Labour government doesn't know what a farmer is. - Yeah, I struggle with that. I think it would be relatively straightforward. It'd go a long way. So that would be the first thing they could do. I think if you look at those issues like water, we're already a fair way down the track. Look, dairy industry ` we've been working on this for a good 20 years. Next year, 20 years ago, we started our first water record, so it's not like this is a new issue. More progress lately and we've got to keep moving on that stuff, but at the same time, you know, regulation has a place, it does, but it's got to be a balance between empowering people and communities to do work. Ironically, one of the organisers of Groundswell is actually part of a Pomahaka River catchment group. 160 farmers measuring their water quality monthly, working out, 'Where do we go next?' You know, 'Where can we put a wetland to capture more nutrients?' That kind of great stuff is happening on the ground. And these guys are calling out to say, 'Empower us, help us do more of that.' But we do need bottom lines, but it's getting the balance right, and right now, they're feeling the balance is out of kilter. - Yeah. And so let's just hypothesise for a second, say the government draws a fleet bottom line here, and is gonna push ahead with all of these things that farmers are opposing. If that was the case, what would farmers need to get this across the line? How can Jacinda Ardern get buy-in in from farmers and achieve what her government wants to? - Well, I think it does` Look, consultation's one thing, but getting us involved up front, in the framing up of regulation is absolutely key, because ultimately farmers know how to fix things in the regions. When we look at water, that was suboptimal, it didn't happen in that way. In fact, DairyNZ, we were actually, our technical` We've got one of the best water quality science teams in the country, paid for by farmers because we want to help fix problems. They weren't involved in that. We're involved in consultation, we're involved now, but get us involved up front. With climate change, He Waka Eke Noa is an option to do that. We have got that opportunity to get the settings right, to get the outcomes in a way that suits everybody. So I think that's the key thing. The other thing is probably just turning round to all of New Zealand and giving farmers a pat on the back and, in fact, the world pointing out that we are the most carbon efficient globally at producing` - Is there an argument, though, Tim, that if farmers had done a little bit more sooner, incrementally, there wouldn't be this whiplash now, there wouldn't be this cliff edge? - We could always argue that, but at the same time, we have made a great amount of progress. You've got catchment groups ` Selwyn, also Te Waihora down there, Hynds as well` - But you're saying` I mean, so if we can always argue that, you're saying that yes, farmers could have done more sooner and we wouldn't be in this situation? - I think the benefit of hindsight ` like, I grew up in the South Island myself, I left uni in the early '90s. Dairy was 7% of the milk production, now it's about 44. Now, as a case study, we would do things differently ` you would engage more with communities, you would take people more with you, but at the time, you know, that's hindsight. So, yeah, absolutely, but we are where we are, and it's really important, Tova, we look forward now, we join together to solve the problems in the best way we can. - And on dairy, we're at a transitional moment in our economy, aren't we? Fonterra is saying that we've reached peak milk. Is agriculture gonna... Is it gonna cease to be the backbone of the New Zealand economy? - I don't think so, cos we're really good at this. And we've got a competitive advantage about, as everyone's saying, getting more value out of what we produce. And that's what Fonterra have come out this week and said. That's where we really need to put our shoulder, behind that one. And that starts with how we farm. So we know that actually the way in which we farm, when it comes to nutrient, water, greenhouse gas, animal care ` all those issues are really important to our customers and consumers. So it's not just about debate about regulations, it's about what they expect of us, and a good thing is we're in a good position now, the way we farm, but we've got to build on that and get better. And as one farmer said to me recently, look, it's a journey without an end, and if you can get comfortable with that concept, then you can get over these issues. But we need the government to come and join up with us. - And a journey that perhaps could've been started a little sooner by farmers. Thank you so much for your time, Dr Tim Mackle, kia ora, from DairyNZ. - Kia ora, Tova. - E whai ake nei, our political panel dissects the news of the week, plus ACT's deputy leader Brooke van Velden shares her backstory. - Hoki mai ano, welcome back. We're joined now by our panel ` Professor Jennifer Curtin from Auckland University Politics Department and Newshub Nation's Digital Editor Finn Hogan. Welcome to you both. Thanks for your time. Finn, I'm going to start with you on Anna Bracewell-Worrall's story about... well, you know, child pornography being hosted on New Zealand sites. Why has this not come up before? - Well, look, I think the short and obvious answer is that this is the most viscerally upsetting subject matter possible, right? So, of course, that pushes people away, including people that should be paying more attention. But I think it's actually important to zoom out and look at this in a global context, because what we're seeing in New Zealand is really just the tip of a global iceberg, like the institution that's at the coalface of this is the National Centre for Exploited and Missing Children in the United States. When they started taking reports on this in the late '90s, they received about 3000 a year. In 2019, that was 17 million. - Whoa. - So it's on an exponential growth curve. And 17 million reports doesn't mean 17 million pieces of content. That's reports. That's up to 70 million pieces of individual content off 17 million reports. So it's hard to overstate the scale of this problem. It's spreading through the internet like a cancer, and it has been for a decade. - And what more, Jennifer, can be done? I think, especially not just with Mega, should it be more proactive, as Simon was putting to David? But also sites like Twitter, should it be doing more to try and strip out that kind of direction to sites like that and to that exploitative material? - Absolutely. I think that's obviously the next step. Governments are finding it difficult, obviously, with these transnational-type companies to secure that kind of proactive strategy. It would be` If we were looking at these tech companies to sign up to an` into` you know, into being ethical in their practises, they could be more proactive. And, like, I don't` This is not my area of expertise, but I'm assuming there are algorithms and ways in which they could put various hashtags in and find this stuff. - One of the things I think is actually really important is that most of them` when I say 17 million reports, most of those are caught by an algorithm set up by social media companies to flag it. - Right. - But that's` Most of those algorithms are content matching, which means they can only catch things that they've seen before, which means all of those reports are coming from things that the algorithm has already been shown, meaning we don't` - The language is always changing, right? Like, Anna Bracewell-Worrall was the algorithm for us yesterday. She was finding those tweets, she was alerting Twitter, and that's because they're constantly coming up with new ways of talking about these things. - Exactly. But the key thing on that is we don't know how much more new content is being created. We're constantly on the back foot. - The other problem is, is that encryption is coming for, like, you know, Facebook Messenger, so that's just going to drive` or make it invisible. - There's a bit of a cult of privacy in Silicon Valley that we really have to challenge. And to some extent, it's understandable ` as our lives migrate online, privacy is a crucial concern. But we have to acknowledge the double-edged sword that the more private the internet becomes, the safer it becomes for predators. Not just people creating this kind of content,... - Yeah. - ...it becomes safer for people smuggling drugs, weapons, literal human trafficking, anything. The more private it becomes, the safer it is for that kind of stuff. - And I` Like, listening to David Clark there as well, I think he said to you three times, Simon, people are online more and more. It's like he was talking about 1997. - LAUGHS: Yeah, I know. - Like, I just feel like is New Zealand behind in this space? Are we not doing enough? He's kind of pointing to everyone else, but nothing at home? - I think this is, um... This is a policy challenge, because asking government to do more regulation in this area, particularly this government, and we saw in other policy areas, over-regulation is something they get hammered for. And I think really he wanted to talk about the good news stories, out of COVID, out of the young people getting online, thinking inter-generationally about the more people are tech savvy, perhaps that next generation are going to be able to create new ways of dealing with this. - Big lack of specificity, I thought, about what he's actually going to do. And I think gaming was a great example that you brought up, Simon. I mean, that's an industry crying out for government support. I mean, if we look at Finland, for example ` they've got the same GDP and population as us. Their gaming industry is worth $4 billion. - He could not give us anything there, could he? - Do you think` Just an elegant segue into APEC. Jennifer, what did you make of the revelation that Xi Jinping was actually just a pre-recorded beam-in rather than, like all the other leaders, attending for the two and a half hours? - Well, you know, perhaps it's a political slap in the face to the rest of those there. Perhaps it's China's way of saying they're a little bit disappointed that the Indo-Pacific language is taking precedence over Asia-Pacific when this is in an Asia-Pacific forum. It's not` - The Prime Minister's speech earlier this week as well, do you think that might have played a part? - Oh, I think she was quite balanced in that speech, I have to say. - Said Indo-Pacific a lot, though, didn't she? - Yeah. Yeah, she did. But it was the title of the conference, to be fair, that she gave that speech at. They were asking questions about that. But there were also other speakers reminding people that this is the year of APEC. APEC is Asia-Pacific. And APEC is about economies. It's not about, sort of, you know, foreign policy, international relations in the same degree. It's a different kind of forum. - Well, it was a different kind of forum again because it was online this time, right? So, I mean, Finn, how much of a bummer for New Zealand is it economically that you have to just go online rather than, you know...? - Absolutely, you can't. And you kind of get all those amazing photo opportunities. You don't get that, kind of, tourism boom that follows from it. And so, no, I think the fact that it's gone all online, but if it wasn't all online, we wouldn't have it at all, right? So I guess then, you know, we've got to take the good with the bad on this. But it is an absolute bummer. - And is it, on the flip side, was it a coup for Jacinda Ardern to get this separate meeting in the first place ahead of the actual APEC summit in November? - Oh, absolutely. This is the first time we've seen something like this in a really long time. So it really speaks to her international reputation, even though, you know, people here might not see that in the same light. So I think` And getting the three big leaders at least present in some form. And while we might not have got agreements and signed up things, this was a retreat. This was a discussion. And it's always leaders week where we see those nuts and bolts sort of flow out into the officialdom, into that realm. This is about conversations. It's about idea sharing. - And about the COVID as well, right? - Yeah, exactly. That's right. It's been pushed, hasn't it, really, down to November? They were talking about, you know, lifting tax on vaccinations and import dues like that. So are they just pushing it down the road? - Well, I think there probably would have been a prior agreement that there wouldn't have been hard... You know, how else do you get people in a room, an extraordinary`? - Let's agree to not do anything! (LAUGHTER) - Well, except, I would say that, we saw from the Prime Minister's press release afterwards, is that they're really talking now about a pandemic treaty. This is important. This is an important initiative to get collective solidarity around prevention, detection, processes that we can all ensure that, globally, the next pandemic doesn't hit poor countries as hard. - It's so crucial to remember that, because the next pandemic is inevitable,... - Absolutely. - ...and there's no reason that it won't be orders of magnitude worse than COVID-19. - We'll look forward to that (!) Thanks very much. (LAUGHS) - And a good point from Helen Clark, as well, that it clears up some of the agenda for the actual November meeting as well, to cover off some of those COVID-related issues. Thank you both very much for joining us, Finn Hogan and Jennifer Curtin. Kia ora. - Well, stay with us. We're back after the break. This is Backstory, where we head behind the scenes into family homes and photo albums into the past to discover what shapes and motivates our MPs. This week, we discovered a painfully shy, lanky schoolgirl who dreamed of speaking German. These days, she's the deputy leader of a rejuvenated ACT party. We join Brooke van Velden, where she grew up in Auckland and just bought her first apartment. - Cornwall Park means a lot to me. You know, I spent an awful lot of time here when I was a kid. We would have picnics, and it's a great way of saving money as well. We used to just spend honestly, it felt like nearly every weekend with another family here playing in the park. And we've got some really awesome memories. So, this is my primary school. This is Cornwall Park District School. I went here for three years. All of my older brothers went here as well. My family was based here. You know, I've now managed to buy just around the corner, which I absolutely love. I just love the trees in the area. It's got a real community spirit. I was a really, really shy child. Some would say probably painfully shy, but I kind of grew out of that the older I got. Not really, though, until I started singing, and that was in high school. And that really brought me out of my shell, you know, having to put yourself in front of people. (SINGS) Music was a huge part of my childhood. I started playing violin when I was 7. I've kind of gone through stages of different musical instruments, but it's a different way of expressing yourself. So when you're in a collective, like a choir or an orchestra, everybody's working together, and I think that's really beautiful. You know, there's even studies that have been done from choirs and they show that when everybody's singing the same song, their heartbeats even sync up. It's... It's really quite magical. So, I was born in Auckland in 1992. I was the youngest of four children to a really loving family with my mum and dad. I'm this little one here, in the blue, looking pretty awkward, but it's pretty cute. I've got a picture here from Cornwall Park, and you can kind of tell I was already starting to get a little bit lanky there. I stopped growing probably around the age of 11, so I was this height when I was a kid, and that's kind of why I got into sport. I've got a picture here from St Cuth's, which is later on, for my netball team. I really did love netball. And I have this picture over here. This is me probably at the age of 11, still looking slightly dorky and adorable. We were a pretty normal family, I always thought, growing up. But I mean, what is normal? You know, both of my parents are small business owners, and we've always been involved in cars. So my mum has a car yard, my dad's a mechanic, and they own their own workshop. But of course, my grandfather, Bob, he also owned a car yard, and my other grandfather, Ari, on the other side is also a mechanic. - Hi, Brooke. - Hey, Bobby. Come on in. - I had to come and pass my eye over your new pad. - Over the new home. - Yeah. - It's not very big, so this is the lounge. - Yeah. - My new room. - Nice sunny room. - (CHUCKLES SOFTLY) - I've watched her grow all the way through, faced the challenges with her brothers. Being the youngest in the family, she's had to keep her eye on everything. There's a lot of thoughts I think I should give her, but I'm backing off and not doing so. - (LAUGHS) - She's doing pretty well without anything that Bob's put into it. - Oh, you give me your thoughts. When I come to visit you, you start talking about politics as soon as I enter the door. - Oh, no. Well, I don't remember that. - (LAUGHS) - But I always told her that girls could do anything, but she's done it all on her own. There's probably quite a lot of her grandmother there. She'll... always have a go. This is... You might get some knock-backs, but then get up and have another shot at it. And that's Brooke. - One thing from my grandma that I always have now is I wear her little necklace, so... So this is my grandmother's, and Bob's got the matching one. I don't remember a huge amount, but I know from the stories that I hear from other people that she was a huge influence and she was also a very strong woman. So this little guy here was given to me by my mum on graduation day. She's always loved little stuffed animals. One subject that I'd always wanted to study at school but wasn't available was German. And it was through that aspect that I managed to get a couple of scholarships to Germany to study. Nobody else could speak English, so it really did put me completely out of my comfort zone. And I came back to New Zealand and I decided, well, I'm just gonna say yes to a whole bunch of things that I've always wanted to do, but I've always been too shy to do, because it turns out nobody really cares. I came into politics mainly because I was studying economics at university, and I was a Greens voter at the time. But I was really conflicted, because the more I started studying and understanding economics and reading political parties' policies, I realised that I didn't actually agree with them. And then it just happened that I was singing in Mount Eden, and I had a few friends around who were watching me sing. And they said, 'Why don't we go down to the local bar?' And so we did, but we stumbled into an ACT party meeting by mistake. And I saw David there. I knew who he was, and I approached him. That really did change my life because he invited me into politics and said, 'Why don't you come along to more of our political discussions?' And I really enjoyed it. It is a strange place. Politics is very odd. I think my introduction to being an MP has been slightly different to the rest of my caucus, in that I worked in Parliament for nearly three years helping David on the End Of Life Choice Act. In terms of having a proper social calendar, it's very hard, because I never know from week to week where I'm going to be. I'd say dating is pretty much out of the question. The weeks just goes so fast. I'm open to the idea, but find me someone who'd be willing to have a long distance relationship that's also within the same country that I can't actually commit to seeing every weekend. But, you know, Simon, if you've got someone in mind... - (CHUCKLES) - I won't say no. One of the things that probably motivates me to get up and continue to do the job ` I mean, I've only been there eight months, but to continue to do it ` is knowing that I can actually make small changes in some people's lives. The other week I actually managed to get a Kainga Ora tenant a heat pump, and that was really quite exceptional. And I think it's a huge privilege that they feel that they can reach out to me. But it also means that I need to do my job and make sure that if they're relying on me, that I'm there to give them the service that they're needing. - Brooke van Velden there. We're back with our panel, Professor Jennifer Curtin and digital editor Finn Hogan. Kia ora korua. Thank you. Jennifer, if I could start with you, those groundswell protests yesterday, some of those more extreme signs that we saw ` 'Taxinda is useless' is another one that we didn't put to Tim. All of them calling her Cindy. Is there an undertone or an overture of misogyny within that group? - Well, it does look that way. I mean, we have to remember, we saw some of this in the 2017 campaign, mostly when farmers came out and protested against the water proposals then. So she's always been very laid-back about what comes through in this regard. It's highly unfortunate, but it also shows that, and reminds us that this isn't` Groundswell was one group that was protesting, but there were other splinter groups there as well that we know sit on the more extreme side. I think it's good that no National MPs who were at these protests got in the same photo as some of these signs. And why I'm saying that is we saw a lot of this misogynist behaviour in Australian politics when Julia Gillard was leader, and Tony Abbott got under signs that said, 'Ditch the bitch.' - Yeah. OK, that's fine, but National did get involved. I mean, Finn, they put out a somewhat questionable car ute tax ` I can't even say it ` it was a bit crass, wasn't it? - It was extremely crass. But look, to be honest, I think it's gonna play well for them. Like, the people that's aimed at are going to like it. It's a little bit on the nose ` like, in their point of view, it's a little bit cheeky. The people that get very angry about it are gonna go online, resharing it, talking about it, and that just doubles their reach for free. They're just playing the social media algorithms. They're playing the game. And they've been doing this for a while, and it works well for them. - And these farming protests, is this kind of a fart tax, tractors on Parliament, Rogernomics-esque zeitgeist moment? Is it gonna hurt Labour at the 2023 election? - Well, I think what we have to remember is Labour did exceptionally well ` perhaps too well ` in some of the rural and regional seats. By the same token, one of your interviewees talked about not seeing rural and regional New Zealand as a homogenous group. And farmers are not a homogenous group. But they are gonna have to be careful, for two reasons. Anything with a tax in the title is problematic at election time. We saw that with the Australian election death tax. As soon as anything gets coined a tax, Labour gets into a risky territory. And I think their second thing would be they need to communicate better. If they've got all these issues ` seven issues on the table that there's concerns about ` take Cabinet to the communities, go into the regions, and take the ministers and do a listening tour. There's so many strategies out there that have been tried before elsewhere that Labour could learn from. - I mean, we can be guilty of, as you say, lumping farmers together. But as you say, they're not a homogenous group. But they do have the same challenges, don't they, Finn, in terms of, they're seen as maybe yesteryear's industry, and it's going to be replaced by digital economy. Is there a real challenge there? - Yeah. And look, I think one thing on this is the more we learn about emerging technologies, the more that we realise that no industry is safe from change. And one thing I'd note with farmers is that lab-grown meat cost about $200,000 to produce one hamburger patty eight years ago when it was invented. - Now it costs around $15. So that's an exponential drop-off. - Sounds just as appetising (!) - Exactly. People aren't familiar with it. There's gonna have to be a marketing campaign around it. But there are so many incentives pointed in that direction, whether it's from carbon economy, from any of these areas, I just think the wind's blowing in that direction, and farmers need to be aware. - We talked about workforce as well. And what does the Minister, what does the Government need to be doing to make it more inclusive, the tech workforce more inclusive? - Well, we've seen a lot of initiatives in the university sector, in the skills training sector, and from the previous government, to promote women in STEM. I think the thing about growing certain kinds of industries super fast, like gaming, where what we know is it's sort of 80% men, but we also know that even within the sector, there's wage disparities that are highly significant, highly gendered, highly, you know, unskilled versus very skilled. And we just know that women tend to end up or be put in marketing and admin rather than creation and development. And that's where the important work is, and that's what drives diversification of the kind of content in gaming, is diversifying the workforce. - One of the pillars of David Clark's digital economy is inclusivity and diversity. But in the short term, you've still got to grow that economy to have that. And Finn, you were talking about gaming before, which you've just mentioned, that it's grown by itself, and they're not helping it, and that we could be doing so much better. - And we talked to David Clark's predecessor, Claire Curran, years ago on this issue, and she said, 'Yes, gaming has fallen through the cracks,' and three years later, nothing has really changed. And it's ridiculous that this is an industry having to fight for relevance or fight for attention, when it's the largest and most profitable form of entertainment on the planet. It's a $250 billion industry, and it's showing no signs of slowing down. And they're making that money here, and we could be doing so much more to help them. - Not passionate at all, is he (?) - Massive nerd. Yes, I know. - I may not be passionate about gaming, but I'm passionate about that financial figure. We should be tapping into that. Finn Hogan, thank you very much for your time. Professor Jennifer Curtin. Kia ora korua. - Thank you for joining us this morning. - Kia ora. - And that's all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching. - Nga mihi nui. See you again next weekend. Captions by Sophie Pearce, James Brown and Ellen Sinclair. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 This programme was made with the assistance of the NZ On Air Platinum Fund.