- E haere ake nei. Today on Newshub Nation ` separated families and devastated businesses. Erica Stanford on what's wrong with immigration under Kris Faafoi. Rob Fyfe on reopening fortress New Zealand to a COVID world. And then, an exclusive tale of modern slavery with a positive ending. Tena tatou katoa. I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. Ko nga pitopito korero e te whare paremata. In political news this week ` the government's announced its plan for reopening New Zealand to the world, including early vaccine access and a trial of new ways to self isolate. There's also hope that vaccinated travellers from low-risk countries will enter without isolating by early 2022. A major report from the IPCC states that human influence has warmed the atmosphere, oceans and land. The UN Secretary-General has labelled it a 'Code Red for humanity.' And a bill to make it easier for people to change the sex on their birth certificate passed its second reading. All parties supported the proposed changes, and the bill will be open to more public consultation before final amendments. Well, backlogs in our immigration system are causing families heartache and business losses. Immigration Minister, Kris Faafoi, has promised a reset, but not until next year. He has also repeatedly declined Newshub Nation's requests for an immigration interview. Let's have a look. (REPORTERS ALL CHATTER LOUDLY) - You've all just scared me. - TOVA O'BRIEN: Immigration is one of Labour's key weaknesses. - All the way through, we've tried to mitigate the impacts of our borders. - There's almost no perfect decision when the borders are closed. - Absolutely no kindness from the government or the minister on this, and they can't yell 'COVID' as an excuse. - REPORTER: Homes, schools and hospitals won't be built unless it simplifies the border exemption process for construction workers. - This is a critical issue, and it needs critical attention. - REPORTER: The industry is lacking experienced staff to train them. - We'd really like to see action now. - We won't be able to deliver on the government's agenda. - TOVA O'BRIEN: Are you not working weekends? - (STAMMERS) I wish that were the case when I was speaking to the Criminal Bar Association last Saturday. - Why do you keep refusing to do Newshub Nation? - (STAMMERS) It's about availability. I think if you're getting to the` - We've literally opened up any Saturday that you want. Why won't you do it? - (CHUCKLES) Maybe have something to do with my last experience, Tova, but, um, look, if we were available, we'd do it. (STAMMERS) Like many other ministers, I'm managing many other competing invitations. Thanks. - Well, as you saw, the minister wouldn't front, but National's immigration spokesperson Erica Stanford would. Tena koe. Morena. Thank you for coming in. All right, so, let's give you a free hit. How would you describe our immigration problem? - It's a crisis. It's a crisis for the migrant communities that have been here in New Zealand contributing to our economy and to our society. It's also a complete crisis for our businesses, who right now are losing staff and who can't attract new staff. - Right, but it's not of the government's making though ` we're in a pandemic. We haven't seen this before. - Well, actually, most of these problems started building up well before COVID. We've had the residents' backlog queuing since 2018. And the graphs are pretty clear on that. When a government invites multiple thousands of people into the country, more so than they ever have before, and then reduce the residency places at the same time, of course, you get an enormous backlog. That has been building since 2018. Of course, COVID hasn't helped that, but this government cannot yell 'COVID' and say, 'It's all COVID's fault.' It's their own policy failure. - Okay, let's just pick you up on that. So, National invited a lot of people into the country as well and reduced the residency, sort of, you know, requirements or the numbers, but did invite temporary workers in ` a lot of low-skilled ` without the infrastructure, so, National sort of created the foundations for this problem, didn't they? - Well, what National did at the same time, you have to remember, is we had an economy that was going gangbusters and we weren't going to sit aside and say to businesses, 'Sorry, you can't have staff,' like this government are doing at the moment. We wanted to grow the economy. But what we did was the sensible thing, and we upped the amount of points that you needed to get residence. We sent a message to the world ` 'Actually, if you want to come to New Zealand, this is the bar you have to cross.' And we upped it so that` we pulled one lever as we adjusted the other. These guys did exactly the opposite. They reduced the number of residency places available, but invited, as I said, hundreds of thousands of people to the country without changing that level. So everyone came in expecting to get residence, but they couldn't. - Everybody was trying to adjust immigration settings anyway, because it was generally agreed that we had too many low-skilled and not enough high-skilled. Right? And that was both National and Labour and New Zealand First. Everybody was trying to adjust those immigration settings. - Yes. We all were trying to adjust the settings, but I think we did that in a responsible way by upping the amount of points that it took you to get residence, thereby sending that message to the world that this is the type of worker that we want. - All right, so you're blaming the government for, you know, not having a clear immigration, sort of, pathway for people and not letting them in, but all migration comes with a risk and no guarantees. So why should we have any sympathy for people who are being stuck? - This is a government that prides itself on kindness and fairness. They deliver wellbeing budgets. That's all they talk about. How is this kind or fair or do anything for the wellbeing of our country when we're talking about people who came to New Zealand with an expectation of getting residence in a certain period of time? Now, when we left office, that was between six and nine months. That has now blown out to three years. These people are here, they are working in industries that either Kiwis don't want to work in or we can't find workers in. They're getting up at 4 o'clock in the morning and milking our dairy cows. They're looking after our parents in old folks' homes. They're doing amazing work. We need them to be here and we need to treat them with some fairness and kindness. - It's really easy for you to sit where you are now and say, 'Hey, look, you're doing really bad stuff.' How are you going to fix it? How would you fix it? - Well, I'm glad you asked, Simon. - Here's your chance. - Well, look, last week I came out with a plan, and it's actually quite a radical plan, because immigration at the moment is so bottlenecked and so broken. If you want to talk about having a reset, you've got to fix that. You've got to clear the decks. So what I've said... - Okay, so the backlog. Let's just talk about the backlog, not the overall reset. - The backlog ` we've got to get rid of it. - How do you do that? - We've got probably 20,000 applications sitting in a pool that's going to take us three years. Now, we need those people to stay. At the moment, they're flocking overseas. We need them here. So what we need to do is open up those frozen residency queues that the minister froze last year in May ` in March, sorry ` and process them, get them processed really quickly. You can fast-track that. There's a lot of double- and triple-handling that immigration do that we can stop them from doing. But also the biggest thing is just the amount of residency places we're giving out. That is the one single biggest thing that holds Immigration New Zealand back. They work to a target, and they're on a` they have been on a deliberate go-slow to meet that low target. If you just up the target, they'd meet that target. - Okay, so that would help with the backlog. But we're talking about` the government's talking about resetting immigration, the whole thing. You would do the same? And when are you going to announce that policy? - Here's the thing. Here's the thing about this government. They've talked about resetting for a long time now. And actually, I haven't heard them say the word 'reset' since May. Well, the first thing you've got to do` the first thing you've got to do is sort out the issues we've got. There is a 50 per cent turnover of staff every year in the immigration residency department. There has been for the last three years. Now that tells you that there's something seriously wrong in immigration, and it comes from the top ` it comes from the minister not being clear. The first thing you have to do, before you even start thinking about a reset, this government can't start` talk about resets and what we're going to do in the future when they've got an immigration system that, right now, is so broken, that has got queues that's the longest we've ever seen that is causing people to leave the country. Right now is what matters. - So that's the machinery. You'd fix the machinery, okay. But what about, you know, the overall vision for New Zealand? You've got to have a vision for New Zealand as well. And on this point, some Maori are saying that in this whole debate that they're getting left out. So I want to know from you what would be your Treaty of Waitangi or Te Tiriti, your partnership focus? What would you bring to an immigration reset in that focus? - Great question. I mean, what I'm planning on doing later this year` - Thank you. - You're welcome. What I'm planning on doing later this year is getting together a whole lot of different groups ` so I'm talking about iwi, Chambers of Commerce, sector leads, the immigration specialists and lawyers ` to sit them all down because these people know where the problems are and where some of the solutions are. Look, I'm an opposition MP ` I don't know everything there is to know about immigration, but these people do. And once we've got our` once we've got these problems sorted out that we've got in front of us right now, we need to sit down and have some conversations. I've got some ideas` - Yeah. So you're talking to immigration specialists and people like that. Are you talking to tangata whenua about their focus? - I will be, absolutely. - You will be. So you haven't been as yet? - At the moment, my focus is on just getting the backlog out. I mean, if we want New Zealand to grow, we want our businesses to do well and stop turning away work, we need them to have the staff staying in their businesses. Right now, we've got Canadians and Australians here poaching our staff. There is an exodus of staff. We've got to plug that. We've got to do something right now. That has been my number one focus. - No one is disputing that this isn't an important issue, okay? And you're working hard on it. You've got a high profile on it. But do you get let down by the National Party` when you're working on something like this and the National Party hits the headlines for reasons like moving artwork this week and having a debate over whether Aotearoa should be the name of the country? Do you feel let down by that? - No, I don't. My sole, laser focus is on two things ` the plight of the migrants in New Zealand right now and the plight of New Zealand businesses who can't get staff and who are losing those migrant workers and also Kiwi workers. That is my sole focus. I'm not distracted by any of that stuff. I don't even think about it. Doesn't worry me. - But it's part of your party, right? You know, and you're in the caucus. You have to take part in these` - Quite frankly, I haven't been paying attention. - You haven't been paying attention? - You know what I do? Every day, I make phone calls to migrants. I talk to parents whose 18-year-olds are trapped at home who can't work, study or even volunteer, who are having mental breakdowns because the minister won't give them a work visa. No skin off his nose to do it. That is my focus. I'm not worried about paintings and all that other stuff. That is my job and that is my focus. - Right. So are you saying that the leadership has not really got its focus on the ball? Is that what you are saying? - If other people want to worry about those issues, that's up to them. This is my focus. - What about your party's vote against gay conversion therapy and that legislation? Does that sit well with you? - We came to a caucus decision and I support that. - You support the caucus decision. - There are issues with the bill that weren't clear and they need to be sorted out, and I'm sure that they will be. I have no doubt that at the select committee, Simon Bridges is going to do a really good job to get that tidied up, to get us to a position where we're happy with the bill and that we will vote for it, because gay conversion therapy is appalling and it's torture. - Yes. Okay, great. So why didn't you cross the floor when your party voted that particular way? Because, generally, your public stance on this has been the opposite. - It's the same thing with the government as it always is` - This is not about the government, it's about your stance. - It is about this government. It's their bill. They're really good on the announcement and they are disastrous on the detail. The detail in that bill matters. And I don't want to sit by and see maybe parents might be prosecuted for stopping their kids taking hormone blockers. If that's the case, that's got to be sorted out. That's a big issue. - Yeah. - We're not going to let that pass on through. - All right, so get it to select committee and fix it. - Fix it. And then vote for the bill. - You should have gone down that path, then, as a caucus. - Well, it was a pretty big issue. This wasn't just some sloppy little bit of drafting, this was` and even the minister, Faafoi ` who, by the way, should be here today ` he did a terrible job at explaining it, and the Prime Minister` and, by the way, the regulatory impact statement also says that parents can be` - If they don't fix it in select committee, because they've got the numbers and you don't, will you cross the floor? - It will be fixed, I'm sure of it. It will be fixed. I trust Simon Bridges to get that fixed. - Erica Stanford, immigration spokesperson for National. Thank you very much for your time. - Thank you. - All right, so the government did make some changes in April that was meant to reunite families, but most skilled workers still find themselves below an extremely high bar. So documents obtained by Newshub Nation under the Official Information Act reveal that 67 per cent of medical workers' applications to reunite their families have been approved. But just 11 per cent of applications from highly skilled workers got the tick, leaving the vast majority of the families split. One of those split is architect Gray Todd, who hasn't seen his four-year-old girl since she was two. He's given up on bringing the family here, and as we speak, he's returning to South Africa. - We come from South Africa, from Johannesburg. Both my wife and I are in the building industry there, which has unfortunately been absolutely hammered over the last` last few years. We've got a little girl, who was two years old when I left. I'm also a very senior architect here. I've got tons of experience in large projects. Whilst we were here in Auckland, we decided that this was the` that this was the spot for us. I was going to hang around Auckland and try and get work, which we were told would take a few weeks. My wife then went back to Johannesburg to close out our house, finish packing everything up, sell cars and borders closed. And that was that. I got work here at a company called Creative Arch, and my visa then shifted across to an Essential Skills visa. And my wife and my daughter were left without a visa, unable to travel to New Zealand. My daughter was diagnosed with anxiety and depression when she was` when she was two years old. You can't believe what that does to you as a parent to have to see that in this tiny little thing and have to try and deal with it over a phone, through a screen. And me not being there was like my daughter was mourning my death. That's-that's basically what she was going through. Your family, it becomes such a big part of you, and then you take that away, it's-it's the cruellest thing you can do to somebody. You know, you kind of live here without soul. It's a year-and-a-half you'll never get back. It's been unbelievably frustrating. If we had known that we would be treated like this, wouldn't have mattered if there was COVID or not ` we wouldn't have come here. That constant anguish and anxiety about something ` something must change. It's such a small thing. It's such an obvious solution. We really wouldn't have minded having to wait for our spots in MIQ, but just treat us fairly ` that's all we wanted. And it just` it just never happened. Three applications under humanitarian grounds ` those have all been declined. There's so much work available and so, so little people available to fill the positions. It's` yeah, it's a big problem here. We can't carry on like this. We can't carry on with the uncertainty. So we're going to go to another country that will welcome us with open arms. Yeah, back to SA. I land on Sunday, which is going to be amazing. I can't wait to see my family. Once we made the decision, just the relief that we're not beholden to this any more, and we're not at these guys' mercy. I can't explain it. No one wants to come here anymore just because of this. They see this, and this is a kind of reputational damage that is going to last a long, long time. - Gray Todd on his way back to South Africa. If you've got a news tip, get in touch. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, or you can email us at... E whai ake nei, we dissect the week's political news with our panel. But first, we're going to reopen, but where are the workers? How do businesses plan? Rob Fyfe after the break. - Hoki mai ano. So, it's 'Hello, world' in stages from the beginning of next year hopefully. Once everyone's had a chance to get vaccinated, we can think about reconnecting. But will that also be the case for migrant workers and their families, like Ram, a diamond setter from the Philippines, who's thinking of leaving because he hasn't seen his wife and child for so long. But if he does leave, his employer has no chance of replacing him. - I'm came from the Philippines. Being here in New Zealand, it's my childhood dream, because I saw New Zealand is a great country for family. So yeah, I saw it in a, you know, calendar picture. That was it. I can work and bring my family here. I've been here for almost three years now. I have a wife and one daughter. My daughter is turning 6 this coming October. I saw my family last February 2020, and yeah, I haven't seen them for almost 553 days now. So yeah. It's continue counting. Living here is actually much easier than the Philippines, but living here without my family, it's getting harder and worse. You know, it's affect my mental ability to work, to be honest. It's actually painful, you know, and my daughter calling me around 2am in the morning and crying and sobbing, asking me just` just to come home, you know. We're still in the limbo, patiently waiting for the immigration to process the application of my family. I've been in this industry for a long time, more than 10 years now. I'm setting diamonds to the jewellery. I'm very thankful that my employer gave me a chance to show my skill here. Thinking of going back to the Philippines is just starting over again. When I came here, I just give up everything that I had before. We were actually planning to stay here for a long time, you know, and` you know, show my` my skill here. - So we would lose quite a dedicated skillset that we simply can't replace. It's always been quite difficult to find jewellers. It's a quite a specialised skill. In the past year to 18 months, though, it's been practically impossible. It's definitely been the hardest that it has been in the last two decades. We've got 18 workers in total in the workshop, and three of them are on visas; that includes Ram. So it makes up a relatively small portion, but it's an important portion. We've got, you know, five empty benches at the moment. We've got basically five positions that are open. We've been advertising for almost 18 months, and we're no further. So we've been working with Ram and making sure that we're doing everything that we can. We became immigration accredited. So that was quite a lengthy process to go through and an expensive process to go through, but we did that so that we could put them on a pathway to residency. We need some clarity around when and if this is going to get better. You know, we've had to give up some clients because we simply don't know what tomorrow's going to bring. So we can't keep running our team at 110%, you know. We have to do the right thing by them. To split migrant families, you know, these are true New Zealanders. These are people who are critical to our businesses. I just` It's almost cruel that we can't get their family here to be with them. For the longest time, we've been constantly talking, 'New Zealand has been an amazing place to live,' and, you know, how clean and green we are, and it is amazing place to live. And he wants to live here, and I want him to live here, and he works hard for us, and so we just want to make that happen for him. - An urgent situation there, one of many that can't easily wait for the government's immigration reset in 2022. So how can businesses plan in such an uncertain environment? Rob Fyfe is the government's Covid-19 business adviser. He's been impatient for the borders to reopen, but something changed his mind. - Delta has come along and changed the game. It replicates so quickly that if it gets in, we'll have to lock down, and I can tell you I don't want to see more lockdowns. If I've got a choice between delaying quarantine-free travel and going into more lockdowns, I'll take a delay on quarantine-free travel. - Yeah, and in the past, though, you've also said the government intentions are good, right? - Yeah. - But sometimes the delivery average ` 5, 6 out of 10. Do you really believe it's going to be different this time? It's quite a complicated programme they've outlined. - What I'm confident in is the vaccine rollout. I think the biggest challenge is not going to be our ability to deliver vaccines. It's going to be educating and giving people the support they need to step up for vaccine. So that's step number one. - They haven't set a target for that. Should they have set a target? - The target for` You know, if you talk to Professor Sir David Skegg, his target is he wants everyone vaccinated. The fear is if you set a target, then people get an option, right? They say, 'I can be part of the...' whatever it is, the 80% or the 20%. You need everyone to want to be vaccinated, and so I understand the logic of not setting a target less than 100%. - Yeah. - Because it just allows people to opt out. - People like Sir John Key are saying, look, we need a firm border opening date, because that's going to push people to get vaccinated. How do you feel about that? - I personally think that's unrealistic. - Right. - And the reason I say that is` You know, two months ago, I was saying before Christmas, and Delta comes along. When we are coming to make this decision and the first quarter of next year, or the government is making this decision, it's highly probable that it's not Delta anymore. It's going to be a new variant. We don't even know the characteristics of that variant. - So are you saying we can't set a date because we don't know what we're setting a date for? - Exactly. The enemy keeps changing their tactics, right? So you just have to adapt accordingly. So I think the government... They made some very clear announcements this week, which I thought were materially different than what we'd seen before. They were clear to say, 'Once everyone has had an opportunity to be vaccinated, 'we're going to start opening the border.' So it's not, 'When we get to a certain threshold, or when...' - It's as much certainty as they can give. - That's as much certainty as they can give, and it's more than we've heard up until this point in time. So that's a plus. - All right. - And then the first quarter ` OK, it's not a date, but there's not a lot of leeway in the first quarter, right? Not too much happens in January. So you're kind of saying it's going to happen in February. That's the way I read 'first quarter.' So I'm starting to get` - OK, well, there we go. Rob Fyfe says February. (CHUCKLES) - Well, yeah, yeah. - I just wonder does this mean, while we're waiting for this to happen, the travel bubble with Australia and what's happening in Australia ` the travel bubble's over, isn't it? - I struggle to see the travel bubble re-emerging. Certainly, you know, the government's said they'll review end of September. I can't see anything happening before the end of October and potentially before the end of the year. So the travel bubble potentially could just roll into this whole new scheme. - New framework. OK. Let's move on to the travel for businesses who` business travellers who want to self-isolate when returning. Does it seem to be designed for people who have a lot of resources, the wealthy few, because you're going to have to isolate by yourself. You can't catch a taxi home from the airport. You can't share ventilation systems. Not everybody's going to be able to do that. - Not everyone is. But you have to look at` at isolation as a system and a series of options, right? So we have an option being hotel quarantine. Potentially we're going to have an option being self-isolation at home. There may be some other options that emerge. I'm not sure. But if someone that can isolate in a home environment because there's resources there, if that frees up a spot for someone to go and isolate in a hotel that wouldn't have otherwise been able to isolate in the hotel because it would have been occupied by that person, then everyone wins. So, yes, that pathway is not for everyone, but if it adds capacity, everyone does benefit. - How much monitoring do you think we should have on people who are going to do this? I mean, I know the PM was joking about ankle bracelets on you if you go overseas and come back, but is that a real` Is that a reality? - For me, it's the reality. The reason she said is I'd actually said prior to her making that statement, I'd happily wear an ankle bracelet. - Right. - And if it's a choice between going into a managed isolation facility or quarantining at home by myself and wear an ankle bracelet ` and quite frankly, there's a number of countries overseas already doing this, and it's not an ankle bracelet like you'd think of a` of a prison bracelet. It's a` You know, It's a tag you can't remove from around your wrist or whatever. - Right. - That technology exists, and I think, for me, that's entirely acceptable. If it's not acceptable for you, that's fine. You can go through managed isolation. It's just a choice. - OK. What about businesses having to pay for this? Do you think that's fair? - I think it's absolutely fair. - Right. - I mean, it becomes` There's a whole range of new costs of doing business that have come about because of covid. There were a range of new costs of doing business that came about as a result of the 9/11 terrorist attacks in terms of border crossing and security. - So you just have to be adaptable. - You just have to bear it, and we're going to have to adapt to many ways other than bearing these sorts of costs going forward. - What about the threat, it seemed to be, from the Prime Minister yesterday? She said that if an employee doesn't follow the rules, the company might be named and shamed. She says that's 'skin in the game.' Is that acceptable? How do you feel about that? - Well, you know, people have to take responsibility here, right - Yeah. Do they need a public flogging? - Well, I don't think necessarily a public flogging is the solution, but I think if you want to participate in a scheme like this, you have to sign up and say that 'My participants are going to adhere to the to the programme rules,' and if they don't, then my view is you should be chucked out of the programme. It's a privilege, right? It's not a right, and I` Look, I mean, you only have to look at what's going on across Australia with people not adhering to the rules and the damage it causes to society. I mean, we have to get serious about this stuff, and we can't kind of dance around the edges of it. We've got to be... This is serious. Lives are at risk ultimately. - We're hearing a lot from businesses who are crying out for skilled workers, and they've got split families. This week's announcement did nothing to address that. Should that have been part of it? Should that be a priority? - I mean, it's a big issue. Like, it's probably the loudest issue. You know, that and MIQ are the two things that are beating my ears every day as I talk to business people. - Yeah. - The only way we can solve that problem is to expand our capacity of isolation resources. - Yeah. - Or reduce the amount of time people have to spend in isolation, or have people be able to bypass isolation. So we did actually hear solutions to that` that question this week. - About different isolation? - About different ways that we can get more people across the border, because it's the only way that we are going to solve the skilled worker problem. - Haven't we sort of missed the boat on this? Because we've got highly skilled people saying, 'Look, I can't hang around any more. I'm going to leave.' Is this a lost opportunity, and is it giving us international reputational damage? - I don't know if it's giving us reputational damage. I think there are issues the world over as everyone's scrambling to adapt. I don't believe the government has moved fast enough in terms of addressing the issue, particularly of people here who need visas extended or need visas to allow families to connect when they've got valuable skills that are essential to our economy. So I would say` - They are leaving, and people like` countries like Australia and Canada. - Some are, so we're certainly seeing anecdotes. I don't know the scale of that problem, but it needs to be addressed, and I think we've moved too slowly on that issue. - And have we lost any other opportunities as well? I mean, because we were the covid-free beacon of the South Pacific. Have we lost any other business opportunities, positioning? - I'm sure we've missed opportunities. I don't think they're gone forever. As soon as our borders become easier to transit... New Zealand's reputation has definitely grown through this covid. Our health status and the value of that has definitely grown. So as soon as we move into that first quarter next year and start to see these restrictions relax, I think we're going to see strong demand of both labour and business investment flow back into New Zealand. - So, as you say, the economy has done well, and we've got international business freedom beckoning, which is great. But will it all go out the window with just one Delta case, and how do you operate a business on that knife edge? - So if we get one Delta case` - It's going to be a Level 4 lockdown, right? That's what Chris Hipkins says. - He's saying there will be if we can't figure out where it came from. If we can track the transmission path, then potentially` and we can lock that down, then potentially you don't have to lock a whole city or region down. But that's` That's between now and Christmas, right, until we've got sufficient people vaccinated. I see that as` - So what are you saying? Get through to Christmas. - Get through to Christmas, and then I think we create options and optionality for ourselves, assuming the virus doesn't mutate into something that our system then is scrambling to deal with. And that's the uncertainty that the world is faced with, I think, for some several years to come. - OK. Covid-19 business adviser Rob Fyfe, thanks very much for your time. - Thank you. - And to reiterate, we did invite Immigration Minister Kris Faafoi onto the programme, but he declined. He sent a statement to say he will have more to say about immigration settings` changes soon. Up next ` our panel dissects the twists and turns of another week in politics. Plus, a rare immigration win. Conor Whitten with an update on his exclusive story of trouble Stuff senior journalist Dileepa Fonska and AUT associate professor Ella Henry. Tena koutou. Thanks for your time this morning. Let's talk immigration. Dileepa, you've been writing on this. So, look, Kris Faafoi seems to have been on the back foot on immigration for months. He's a no-show so far. What's going on there? - Well, he just doesn't seem to be across his portfolio. I mean, that's, you know, the long and short of it. A lot` I mean, if he'd agreed to appear on your show today, would you` Are you confident you would have learnt anything from that appearance? - (LAUGHS) So you're saying that they've got nothing to say. - Yeah. I mean, they've got nothing to say, but also the answers, you know, sometimes, you know, they're mixing up immigration concepts. They're talking about, you know, the expressions of interest queue when other people` when journalists are asking questions about, you know, the residency queue. They're mixing, you know, the situation with migrants outside the country with ones who are already here and, you know... And these issues are interlinked, but they are certainly giving off the impression that` or at least Faafoi is giving off the impression that he's not fully across all these issues. - It seems a real mess. And the problem for the government in this is the image of split families, Tim McCready. I mean, how damaging is that? - Oh, it's hugely damaging. I mean, those stories are really heartbreaking. I mean, we heard from an architect and a jeweller, but it goes far beyond that. I mean, we've got people here that are skilled in IT and engineering. We need to keep them here, but they will leave. And, you know, there's` It's not just split families. It's people that have, you know, elderly parents and want to go and see them. But that's not a possibility for them as well. So it's really` it's really challenging, but that will be damaging for New Zealand in the long term if we can't sort that out. - Yeah, it's a balancing act, right? For the government, Ella? I mean, you know, you want to keep the country safe, but you want to, you know, to perform as an economy. So they've got an impossible task. Have I given them too much? - Look, I couldn't agree more. I mean, there is probably not many other countries in the world that are doing any better in terms of opening their borders. But I do think there is, as you said, a case to answer around what is the strategy? You know, we might be dealing with an ever-changing environment, but we do want to see political leadership around what are the processes in place to at least meet the objectives that were set prior to the pandemic. - So now we're talking about the great immigration reset, Dileepa, but we don't know anything about that and we have no real time frame, is that right? - Yeah. And after that announcement, we've not really seen many details about what it looks like. And, in fact, I mean, if you were looking at this issue and you were trying to prioritise what we should be dealing with, what would have been the most important thing to have announced that point? Would it have been to come to some kind of conclusion on these very urgent issues around the residency queue and letting families in, and give people some answers? Or would it have been to sort of announce a vague kind of reset policy? Because, I mean, immediately after those, we saw a whole heap of policies that contradicted it. You know, the great exceptions were for temporary-type workers, seasonal workers, you know, extending temporary visas. - That's right. Yeah. - I mean, that's the opposite of the reset strategy, right? Which is to get businesses to invest more in capital by putting more pressure on their ability to bring in temporary workers. - Right. OK. Well, this is opposition gold, isn't it, Ella Henry? I mean, so Erica Stanford is just, like, lapping it up. How did she perform this morning? - Well, I certainly got a sense of her passion for the portfolio and the job in front of her, and I think that that's really important. I'd like to see a similar level of passion and commitment to what are we going to do to` You know, we've done so well on so many fronts since the pandemic. Here's one area that requires strategic leadership and long term vision. And I'd like to think that this first government that has had an absolute majority for, what, over 20 years might have the kaha to actually come up with that strategy. - Yeah. So, I mean, Tim, you were talking about, you know, how crucial it is to have those skilled workers. Erica Stanford's answer is to, you know, I'm just going to` We've got to clear the backlog and fix the machinery. I mean, is that a bit naive? You know, 'I'm just going to go in there and ride over the immigration bureaucracy.' - Yeah. I mean, it's` it's not` There's no easy fix, right? But there are` I mean, there are other... There's other ways that this can be looked at. I think some of Erica's ideas are actually really interesting. They've put forward some ideas of, you know, to give people` to give people visas to be able to stay here. - Yeah, COVID contribution visa. - Yeah. And I think, you know, we should be` we should be thinking about that, because these people have made a big difference to our economy over the last two years. Why not let them stay? - Actually, I mean, I would say that there are some easy fixes, and you should move on those. I mean, when it comes to the residency queue, that's been an issue since before COVID, right? And with the expressions of interest queue pause, which is what feeds migrant applications in there, we could easily make a start on that. And if you look at our history, we haven't really had a queue of this size. And the reason is because of these` because of, you know, the inability to come to a decision on the target and the target set too low, too many migrants coming in off of, you know, off of too few places. We could easily fix that if we want to fix it. - All right. One last quick question on immigration. Will National have any kind of Te Tiriti focus? I put that to Erica Stanford. What did you think? - Yeah, and she didn't answer it, but she did say she was going to go out and talk to Maori which I think is an important starting point. I think, at the moment, National as a party is still working out what its relationship is with Maori. There's work to be done there. - Mm. (LAUGHS) - I'd like to think that some of those younger voices might begin to develop that relationship in a more meaningful way, but certainly the old guard are somewhat worrisome. - OK. (LAUGHS) Let's move on to the other big story of the week ` is we're going to re-open, right? Hooray, you know. But we're going to re-open in stages. Tim, do you think, you know, step by step? Is this the way to do it? - Oh, absolutely. I think the one thing that business has been really calling out for is some sort of certainty, and the framework that has been put forward ` while it may not be fixed on dates, it does provide a pathway and it provides some certainty. And, you know, in the past week, I've been talking to a lot of business leaders about what they think about the` about what's been put forward, and everyone's thrilled that there's something. And as Rob Fyfe said, you know, whether that means, you know, for this trial that's coming up, if it means you've got to wear a wristband or there's a Western Australia app that you` within five minutes, you get a message and you have to send a geotagged selfie of yourself to show that you're in your... - OK. So it is technologies` - That sort of technologies ` whatever it is, I think we need to start trialling that, and we need to get moving on it. - OK, so David Skegg warned` I mean, it could be all for nothing, right, Dileepa? Because David Skegg warned us this week; we're going to have an outbreak before the end of the year. And this week it seems like we've dodged a Tauranga Delta bullet, didn't we? - Yeah. I mean, things can change very quickly with COVID, right? So we've got to be willing to` I mean, I think we've all got to look at this plan as the plan, potentially, at the moment, but it can be significantly revised. And, in fact, I think the report also had to be revised when the Delta strain came up. I mean, there's a lot of things that can change with the Delta variant ` you know, much more sort of virulent. And even the vaccine won't necessarily reduce the number of cases, but it will reduce, you know, hospitalisations from it. - Yeah. So the vaccine is key, right? Let's talk about vaccination rates. So this is` There's no target set by the government on vaccination rates before we open up; it's just like, you know, David Skegg wants everybody. That's not going to happen. You know, the government's target is, you know, everybody should be offered the jab. But at the same time, we've got poor workers in Tauranga who are not vaccinated at all. I mean` So, how are we going to bridge that gap? Ella, what do you think? - I mean, better data management is a first start. I find it really sad that a number of ministries don't actually know levels and percentages, even of frontline workers, who have been vaccinated or not. I mean, I don't have a solution because, as you said, it's a moving landscape. We literally don't know what's going to happen next. All I know is you're not welcome in my house unless you've been vaccinated. - Right. The sign over your door? - Uh-huh. Absolutely. - LAUGHS: OK. Well, should there be a sign over New Zealand? Should there be a sign over all businesses? I mean, is that how you are going to encourage people who are vaccine hesitant to do it? - Well, I think everybody should be offered it, right? I mean` And we have to offer them within a reasonable period of time. The tricky question is what do you do if people refuse? And I think if they have been given, you know, fair warning` I mean, this has got to be a whole of New Zealand effort. It's` You know, there's a whole bunch of people in the economy. You know, the advertising firms have got to get in and start promoting this, you know, start promoting people taking vaccines and making people more comfortable with it. Singapore was running huge ad campaigns right through, and all kinds of initiatives, to try and get people jabbed. And I think we've got to just have a bit more effort into this. - And I think the thing for New Zealanders, and for the whole world, is that it's that message that we only win when everybody gets across the finish line, so all of us have a part to play in that and encouraging people. - But the thing is, you know, trying to get everybody to get across that finish line. OK. So, I mean, how do we do it? Do we offer rewards? Do we offer the sticks of, you know, you can't` Like we're saying, like Ella's saying ` you can't come into my house, you can't come into my restaurant unless you've been vaccinated. - It's a carrot and stick approach, isn't it? I mean, we know from policies in the past that sticks don't really work. And so word of mouth. I'm appalled by some of the anti-vax messaging I'm seeing on social media from people you might think are sane and sensible. - (LAUGHS) Right. - And so, I guess we have to work at a personal level. You know, last year we were a team of five million. This year we might be a team of three and a half. - But the thing is, on that particular point, what you say ` anti-vax messages from sane and sensible people ` but it's the hesitancy of the long game here. So the common argument is 'I don't know what this vaccine's going to do in five years.' - Yeah, I mean, in this whole debate, we've had a lot of people mentioning in, you know, political levels that you've got to have those one-to-one conversations. We're not having them at the moment. We're not even really properly having a conversation across the mass media about it. I mean, you don't really see that much, you know, advertising about it. It goes to my point, I guess, earlier. We are not, I think, reaching in. I know people who are` They're not` I wouldn't call them vaccine sceptics or vaccine anti-vaxxers. They're just hesitant. They just, 'Oh, we'll see...' - And what do they say? Why not? - Yeah. They say, 'Oh, I'll just wait and see.' You know, 'I don't know. I'm not quite sure.' They've heard various things during the pandemic about them. And everybody is confused about this vaccine issue, and I think we just need to go back and try and clarify it for a lot of people. - What do you think, Tim? - Yeah, I mean, I think` Yeah. I mean, going back to what I said ` I think all of us have a part to play. I think in the coming weeks when younger people are starting to be offered the vaccine, social media will start to really play a big part. In America at the moment in particular communities, they're using micro influencers to reach communities that are not` that are hesitant to try and get that` - Micro influencers. - You know, influencers that are in small communities, but that people will respect and listen to. And we're going to have to get to that point once we see these pockets of communities that are hesitant. - I couldn't agree more. The millions spent on large scale advertising could actually equally be spent on those micro influencers with social media profiles. - I'm going to have to wrap it up there for the moment. We've solved all the COVID problems, just like that. Ella, Dileepa and Tim, thank you very much for your time. E whai aka nei ` we found a good news immigration story. Yes, you heard right. Plus ` how an act of terrorism inspired one MP to train as a paramedic. - Hoki mai ano. It's time to go behind the scenes to see what motivates and shapes our MPs. This week ` a man who was inspired by an act of terrorism to become a paramedic. He also rode out the global financial crisis working for one of the world's largest banks. We went to Auckland's North Shore to meet National's Simon Watts and hear his back story. - Just a typical young boy. One of three boys. I'm the eldest, so I've got two younger brothers. I went to a rural primary school ` 80 kids ` in Roto-o-Rangi, then on to Cambridge Intermediate and Cambridge High. I was the deputy head boy. There we go. You know. I'm a type one diabetic, so I've been on insulin since I was 21 months old. Dealing with pretty reasonable challenges as a young person growing up. You know, I started to give my own injections to myself at the age of 4. Mum and Dad were orchardists. There's my grandfather, actually. You know, and that's me growing up on the orchard with him. The old days, you know, captain of teams. You know, so diabetes has never, never stopped me doing anything. Played rugby from the age of 5. The comaradery-ship you have with that in a team. So I started my career off in corporate tax. Yeah, so I was working for the RBS ` Royal Bank of Scotland Group, Ulster Bank in Ireland and RBS in London ` in primarily part of the` what was the investment banking divisions, global banking and markets. (HORN HONKS) Look, I think pretty much when I was in London, I was there just after the London bombings, and it was quite a formative moment in terms of me as a young person. And I guess I wanted to get into a position where I wanted to learn a skillset that if I was ever in that type of situation, I'd be able to do something to be able to help. I was responding from home to emergency calls in London around my local neighbourhood. Looking at that, I wanted to come back to New Zealand and go, well, I wanted to be an expert at it in terms of as best as I could be. And that's what drove me to study paramedicine at AUT and, you know, become degree qualified. There's an element of me that's quite hands-on, calm under pressure. And the element of this role ` it's attention to detail. You've got to get it right first time. You don't know what you're going into, but you need to be able to deliver and perform at the highest level continuously. You've got to work as a team, right? In this truck, there's two of us, and that's it. And sometimes we'll be isolated. And, you know, as a team, we need to deal with the situation that's in front of us. You know, a guy had been hit by a car and we got there. We did a resus and that on him. He died, and he was` You know, I looked at him and he's the same age as me. You know, family like I do. For someone like me, I guess it gives you that passion. You know, you've got to make the most of every day. You've got to get into this and, you know, leave nothing in the tank. I clicked on pretty early on that if I want to make significant change and be part of significant positive change in this country, then I need to get into a position where I can do that. And I guess that's been the driver for me to move out of, you know, private sector and that, and actually put my name forward for politics and get in there. Do you want anything? - We went round to a mutual friend's, and Si was in his rugby team at that time. And went down for some rugby celebrations, post the game on a Saturday afternoon. And, yeah, we've been together since then, which was 1999, so it's ridiculous. Since I was 19. Yeah. I mean, look, probably when we were 19, this is not what I imagined my husband would be doing. But, you know, you can just see he loves it. He's very passionate and wants to make a difference. So I think that's what's probably been the loveliest thing to see. You know, he's obviously had a very varied career. But, yeah, getting into something now where he can help people, which is similar to what he did in his ambulance and paramedic roles, is fantastic. - You know, at the end of the day, your family's the most important aspect ` it is for us. And that's what grounds us. Why do things take so long in this country to get done, right? That's what drives and drove me, probably more than anything, to get into this role. You know, we could be a hell of a lot better than what we are, and we are amazing. Don't get me wrong. New Zealand's a beautiful place. But you know what? We could be the best place to live, play and work in the world. - Simon Watts there. Stay with us. We're back after the break. - Hoki mai ano. Welcome back. Earlier this year, we brought you the story of a Peruvian migrant worker with claims of serious labour abuse. She worked for Peru's Ambassador, and was fired after speaking out. The allegations at the time were likened to modern slavery, but now, nearly six months later, she has the chance to make a new start. Senior reporter Conor Whitten went to see how life has changed. - (CHEERING) - Traditional dances, traditional dishes ` Peruvians know how to throw a party, and today there's a lot to be grateful for. - TRANSLATOR: Right now, I feel very happy, content. - A community coming together in Wellington to celebrate their independence, last month marking 200 years since Peru escaped from Spanish rule. - It's a new beginning, and 200 years of independence is` is very important as well. - But today there's another story of freedom that's really adding to the joy in the room. - I said to God, 'I love this country. I did not expect this. I did not expect so much.' - Five months ago was a different story for Diana Baratta Tello. She was out of a job and a place to live, her children stuck across the ocean; a family she had to support in Peru. - On the one hand, my family wanted to return, but as a mother, I feel that I will not be able to do anything, because the situation in Peru is terrible. - She'd come here to work for Peru's Ambassador, Javier Augusto Prado Miranda, living at the Ambassador's residence in Wellington, where she worked as a maid. But the job was more than she signed up for. She alleges she was forced to work 80 or 90 hours a week, half of it, she wasn't paid for. How many hours do they still owe you? - I believe they owe me around 1000 hours. - She says she was restricted from leaving the property. - It could be compared to slavery. I guess you'd call it modern-day slavery. At the very least, it's serious exploitation. - And subject to verbal abuse. - I gave everything for them. I came here for them. I trusted them. - When Diana complained to Peru's foreign ministry, she was fired and kicked out of the house. Her visa was tied to her job at the residence, and without that, she couldn't work. - Now I am not supporting my family in Peru. - But since sharing her story with Newshub Nation, life for Diana began to change. Immigration New Zealand gave her a new visa. Now she's entitled to stay and work. She's just started a job as a cleaner. Finally, things are looking up. What did that mean for you? - Oh... It was the best. - It's a good day too for Sandra Soto. She's travelled from Auckland to see Diana. - It's like we have been through the same together, that I was so happy to see her. - Sandra worked at the Peruvian Embassy. She alleges she too was overworked and a victim of abuse. What was it like working for them? - OK, so... (BREATHES SHAKILY) Sorry. (SOBS) They were very busy. Nothing was ever enough, never enough. - After our story went to air in March, the Peruvian Embassy offered Sandra a deal. They'd pay her for the hours she says they still owe her, but the contract had a catch. - I had to stop saying things ` or bad things ` or tell my story about what happened to anyone else. - They wanted you to be silent. - Yeah, that's right. - Sandra chose not to sign. - I cry. I cry in the moment, and you cannot believe what happened. Like, it's literally erasing what happened with Diana as well. - An investigation into Ambassador Prado was launched by Peru's Foreign Ministry. Diana and Sandra were interviewed in May. Do you think they're taking it seriously? - (SIGHS) I am not sure. - They'd like to see the Ambassador removed from his posting. - So I want they literally to, like, get out of the Ministry. Like, they don't deserve to be there. - Let justice be done. - But today they're moving forward, and the future appears to be bright. - I'm very grateful to this country. I've received a lot of support. I don't know if I deserve it. I think I do, but I love this country. - A new start for Diana here in New Zealand ` a new visa, new job and new lease on life. - Conor Whitten with a positive immigration story there. All right, we're back with our panel Tim McCready, Dileepa Fonseka and Ella Henry. Thanks for your time again. This week, the lights went out in some parts of the country. Dileepa, is that acceptable? - No, and` (CHUCKLES) and, I mean, if it happens on a regular basis, you're probably going to see political implications from it, right? I think it... In this case, there seem to have been some specific miscommunications from Transpower around the issue. But I think there's a longer term issue here around electricity generation, and how we are going to incentivise these renewables and moving towards fully renewable electricity, because, you know, with the emissions trading scheme and everything like this, you know, even methods like coal and gas are going to get more expensive, as, you know, ads are going to get more expensive. - Carbon prices, yeah. - Yeah, carbon prices go up. So we are going to come up with a way of incentivising these generators to move towards, you know, a much more renewable` much more renewable` - But in the meantime, everybody used is as an opportunity to blame somebody else, didn't they, Tim? I mean, you've got Megan Woods saying, 'Oh, it's Genesis,' Transpower apologising, the gas lobby saying, 'Oh, we can't rely on renewables.' - Yeah. - Yes. (CHUCKLES) - I mean, wasn't it` The night of the outage, there was` I mean, there was blame going everywhere, and then we've just seen it continue over the last` you know, last week, where everyone's got there hand up, trying to point at somebody else for their own reason. What's the answer? It's complicated. (CHUCKLES) - Yeah, it's complicated. Does anybody actually understand the electricity market? I mean, I sure` I sure don't. No? (LAUGHS) - Very few, very few. - Very few. - Everybody on brownout night was an expert on electricity. - (LAUGHTER) - But nobody knows how to fix it. All right, well, that's something. Something we also need to fix is something called the climate, right? So the IPCC had its report out this week. 'Code red for humanity,' according to the UN. Ella, shouldn't this have been the biggest story for the week? - I absolutely agree. I have grave concerns for our species. - Mm. - I mean, the planet will survive us. - Yeah, it's just for humanity's sake. - But will we survive our planet? That's the ultimate question moving forward, and I` I am genuinely concerned that we may have reached that point where we cannot fix it, and I don't know what it'll look like. - One of the problems is that because it's an ongoing or pervasive issue that we really don't know how to fix just overnight, you know, it just gets put on the backburner. We have a headline. We move on. - It does, and you're right. The headline sort of disappeared this week because of the Tauranga` you know, potential cases in Tauranga, the energy outage ` all of that. But, yeah, I think one thing that is quite heartening is it is becoming mainstream. People are talking about this. Younger people are definitely talking about this, but also we're seeing increasingly, you know, sustainability, sustainable business, ESG Metrics coming into play for businesses. - What does that mean? What's an ESG Metric for someone like me? - It's considering environmental and social aspects of business, and really putting that` explaining what you're doing to make a difference, and investors and consumers are really looking at what businesses are doing now. So I think we are seeing a bit of a shift. New Zealand is hosting APEC at the end of this year, and one of the key things for APEC is sustainability and climate change, so we're gonna have a lot of discussion about that here in New Zealand. - This is going to start not just out planet, which is the most important consideration, but it is going to start hitting people in their back pocket. - Yeah. - Because, you know, at the recent APEC forum event, they were` The agricultural industry` Around the agricultural industry, they were discussing the impact this was going to have on demand for agricultural goods if we can't get the carbon emissions related to agriculture down. There may be consumers who are less reluctant to consume. You know, the carbon prices are gonna go up. - So as a species, unless it hits us in the back pocket, we don't do anything about it. - That's the worrying choice. - That is normally` (LAUGHS) That's normally how it goes. - That's how it works? - Yeah. - OK, all right. So, let's move on to a really big issue, OK, a really big issue. Ella, the Churchill` Winston Churchill painting that the Greens wanted removed. National kicked up a fuss about it. How do you read that? - Much ado about nothing. Clearly the government must have been doing quite well if that was the only thing they could complain about this week. - (LAUGHS) Does it` But is National sort of, you know, embedding itself in this sort of, like, culture war? They say, you know, the Greens wanted to remove it because Winston Churchill had some racist overtones. So are they` Is it part of their strategy or are they just jumping on anything? - It does feel like they're jumping on anything. You get` You know, when they` I think, a period of about five or six years ago, there were about three movies about Winston Churchill coming out. You know, maybe it was about 10 years ago, around the time of the Iraq War or something like that. You know, there were` there were, you know, a bunch of them, so it had its, kind of, cultural time. And I think... they have been getting some wins in recent weeks around a lot of different issues ` you know, some of the failures, kind of, the ports, this immigration issue, and even the brownout should have been a massive opportunity for them to point` - Judith Collins is a former Energy Minister, right? You know, so she had stuff to say. - It should have been an opportunity, yeah. And so I think the thing is when you're in the opposition, it is hard to get attention, and so sometimes you do go a little bit out there and try and put a` I guess the old analogy was the dead cat on the table, right? You throw a dead cat on the table, everybody starts talking about the dead cat. - (LAUGHS) - But the thing is` Yeah. - They're missing the point of the dead cat. I like the analogy. - There's gotta be a strategy about it, yeah. - I was really surprised to see that there's a petition on some of the National MPs' page to bring back the Winston Churchill painting. So clearly that is` - A petition? Really? - Yeah, so clearly it is an issue that matters to some. - But it's been moved, not removed. It's simply going to another public place, surely, if we believe the Greens. - That's called detail. - Yeah, I'm sorry. - (CHUCKLES) Finally, one last thing. One for you, Tim. How big of a miss is it that Amazon is taking Lord of the Rings away? Did Stuart Nash stuff up on this? - I think it's a combination of, you know, perhaps we could have done a bit more. Our border restrictions don't` doesn't make it easy for filming here. People need to come and go a little bit more easily than they've been able to, so I think there's` there's a few reason why that has happened. A big miss, though. - All right, a big miss. All right, I think we're just gonna have to leave it there for the time. Thanks very much, Tim, Dileepa and Ella for your time on the panel today, and that is all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching. Nga mihi nui, and we will see you again next weekend. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 - This programme was made with the assistance of the NZ on Air Platinum Fund.