- Today on Newshub Nation, Minister Aupito William Sio with the latest from the epicentre of Auckland's Delta outbreak. What happens if lockdown doesn't work? Some of our sharpest minds on life beyond an elimination strategy. And with parliament suspended, we get digital editor Finn Hogan's analysis on who's up and who's down in politics, online. Tena tatou katoa, I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. Ko nga pitopito korero i te whare Paremata in political news this week. There are 347 total known cases of Delta in the community, with 70 new cases reported Friday. Health officials say while the number of daily cases is high, the overall trend is positive, and we may be past the peak. All of New Zealand south of Auckland will move to alert level 3 at 11.59pm on Tuesday night. Auckland and Northland, meanwhile, face at least a further fortnight of full level 4 lockdown. And at least 90 people, including 13 US military, are dead, and more than 140 wounded, following a terrorist attack by ISIS at Kabul Airport. Jacinda Ardern confirmed the final New Zealand Defence Force evacuee flight safely departed Afghanistan. But not everyone has made it out. Well, it's been a torrid week for the health system, and for the team of five million, with a steep curve of Delta in the community. Let's take a look. - It's now a sub-cluster, as well as a location of interest. - The most at risk have had the lowest vaccination rates. - There are some racist remarks and comments being directed at the people in our Samoan community. Frankly, gutless. - This community's also hurting. - My heart goes out to everybody that's got the positive. - Mass vaccination events are good for lifting our overall vaccine numbers, but not necessarily for reaching Maori and Pasifika. - We're going to conquer those by just giving direct access. - Dr Ashley Bloomfield said today 'combating Delta in the community 'is like dealing with a whole new virus.' - I'm asking everyone in the country to be kind. - Yet the South Island is still in an alert level 4 lockdown. - Cabinet has decided that all of New Zealand, south of the Auckland boundary, will move to level 3 at 11.59pm on Tuesday, August 31. For those in Auckland and Northland, you will remain in level 4. - Well, as we saw there, the biggest cluster is from a Mangere church. It's prompted a large scale testing and vaccination turnout from the Pasifika community, a community that, according to Pakilau Manase Lua, who heads up the Pacific Response Coordination Team, has been frustrated by the government response. I asked him why. - To be fair, we've invited government ministers last year during the lockdowns, and Minister Aupito and others have fronted, and been regular there. However, this time around, it's very hard to get them. They are very busy. Totally understand that. But we have invited them to come and listen directly to the unfiltered voices of our communities. - And so you're saying that they haven't come to listen to the unfiltered voice? - No. - If they're going to do it right from now on, what should the first priority be? - I think the first priority is driving the vaccinations to get people who haven't been vaccinated to get their first jabs done. We've been working behind the scenes to support our hard-working providers on the ground, and their hard-working workforce, who are doing a fantastic job, but they're working under policy constraints which stop them from doing things that work better for specific communities. We need ethnic specific solutions. - You're saying that a one-size-fits-all vaccination approach and messaging isn't working? - Doesn't work. And you can see that, you know, at the end of the day, we've got the highest testing rates. Pasifika has the highest testing rates of any group in the country. We're leading the charge in testing, but not in vaccination. Something's wrong. - Well, a`actually, the new statistics out actually show that Pasifika now lead the way in full vaccinations among people aged 40+. So, clearly the messaging is` - Yeah, if you look at the different age bands. - Yeah. In that particular age band. So, the message is getting through there, they are leading the way there. - Yeah. It's the youth. You know, as you know, our demographic is very different to mainstream. Our population` the majority are in the under 40 age bracket, you know what I mean? And unless you can get our young people motivated to get vaccinated, good luck, you'll never get the numbers. So, they realise that now. They're coming to the churches, they're coming to our leaders, but it's a little bit little` too little too late. - You're a Tongan leader, right, so, in the Pasifika community. But there has been some abuse, racist remarks being made against the Pasifika community because of the AOG cluster. Does that stop people coming forward? And how do you deal with that? - Look, our community are resilient. We've come through the Dawn Raids. You know, we've come through many things that have been racists targeting our communities. But we're very resilient and we're very forgiving. But at the same time, it's a shame on those that will pick on the most vulnerable at a time of crisis. The last thing you want is us being at each other's throats. But my` hats off to the Samoan community, they've just gone on and done it. - The government has come under some criticism, actually, Bloomfield in particular, for actually naming an ethnic community in this particular outbreak. But if there is a cluster in an ethnic community location, like a church, should that ethnicity be named? - I don't think ethnicity is helpful. Breaking it down to Samoan or Niuean. Pacific, I think it's good to say, if it is in our communities, we need to let our communities know that the virus is here, but let our community media or our community leaders front the story. Don't get reporters running up and making a sensationalised position on something. We didn't see that in the North Shore. Actually, the guy was from Devonport and he was probably European. You didn't hear anything about his race. We had a church in Freemans Bay in the middle of a well heeled community, did you hear about that? No. The sensationalism always hits South Auckland, and we're sick of it. - Just on one particular point with this, the AOG cluster. The name of the church does include Samoa in its title. Could there have been another way of describing it? - There probably could have been, and I guess it's really` it's the way you frame the story, you know, you have to frame the story very carefully, considerate of our communities, because this is what happened to us in the Dawn Raids. It drove a lot of hate, drove a lot of racism. They got politicised. And then you had the mess that we were in during the Dawn Raids. This will be reviewed sometime. So the community's voice is being captured. Our group have been minuting, recording all of the actions that we've been taking since April last year. - Okay, just finally, we're going to talk to the minister, Aupito William Sio this morning. What would be your message to him? Are you disappointed in his actions? - I think Minister Sio has done all he can from where he is, and he's done a good job. He's come to us last year. I know he's busy. I'm not finger pointing, or anything like that. We want to work with him. I mean, you can't put a one-size-fits-all strategy for our people. It must change. You must customise it to suit our communities. Come to the churches, make them vaccination and testing hubs. You know it works. And that's what they're doing now. But it's too little, too late. - Pakilau Manase Lua, thank you very much for your time. - Thank you. - Well, too little, too late. A stinging critique, really, of the government's care for our Pasifika community. The Minister for Pacific Peoples Aupito William Sio joins me now from Mangere in South Auckland. Morena, welcome, minister. Thank you for your time today. We'll get to that critique shortly. But first of all, you are the associate health minister. Can you tell us what the latest Delta numbers are this morning? - Well, as expected, there will be an increase in numbers today, and I've not yet heard any reports that we have yet peaked. And so` but the officials will work through to confirm those numbers, and will be announced later. - Did you` do you get access to the 9 o'clock briefing that is given to ministers? - Yes, I do. - And what did that 9 o'clock briefing say? - Well, as I said, the numbers will be increasing, as we expected, and you'll get that. The nation will receive that` - Sure. I appreciate that. - The usual briefing at 1:00. - Yeah, okay. So you're indicating to me, you're preparing us for an increase in numbers, and that this outbreak has not peaked. - Well, I haven't seen any reports that indicate that, but what the numbers also indicate is that the testing that our communities are undertaking is working. We're identifying cases that are positive, and weeding away the cases that are negative. And those are good signs. - Okay, I mean, you are coming to us from Mangere. It's your home, it's your electorate. It's the centre of our biggest cluster. Can you describe to me what the feeling is right now in that community? - Well, look, everybody's getting on with it. I` we had a late night Zoom with the church in question. Everybody's wanting to do the right thing. We were counting numbers, to make sure that all families had received the information that our providers and our connections were sharing with them. And they're ready now, again, today, to make sure that those who have yet to do the second testing, or third testing, are out there getting that test done. And those who have been cleared, and have done their testing, lined up for getting the vaccination done. We're doing it` - All right. So, I mean, if you've been talking to the church overnight, have they indicated to you whether that particular cluster is going to grow again? - Well, it's not up to the church to decide. This is` that's why the testing is being done. - But have they been notified, I guess, is the question. - Yes, we're working very closely with the Auckland Regional Public Health officials. And so through the testing, the officials are able to do their work, and weed out those families that could be cleared and ready for vaccination. Obviously, those who have identified as being positive, the officials are working with them about isolation. - So, we just` we just heard from a leader from the Pacific Response Coordination Group saying 'Too little, too late.' What's it like to get a critique from your own community leaders, that the government is doing too little, too late? - I think Pakilau` look, I accept what` the work that they're doing. But they're one organisation. I deal with all leaders right throughout the whole country. So, I'm talking to them constantly. This isn't the first time, obviously, we're under level 4. So, everything is confined online. And we've held nationwide Zooms across the region, to make sure that all the leadership, our church leadership, our traditional leadership, are getting the correct information from health officials and our own clinicians and experts. But prior to that, I was doing that face-to-face across the country. So, that pattern of engagement that` we've been undertaking that for some time, to make sure that we take the community with us. - Right. So, are you rebutting any criticism that you haven't been engaging... with your electorate? - Incorrect. Absolutely incorrect. I have engaged with all organisations across the motu. And in this case, we have to remember we're dealing with Delta. It's the first time it's landed on our shores. And so, we have to remain in our bubbles at this point in time, so Zoom technology is what we've been doing nationally, regionally, and also in specific languages. But we also have to rely on the experts, and people who know how to make sure that we're protecting our communities, and giving good quality advice. - Okay, so I mean` I appreciate that you're using Zoom technology, and you're relying on the advice of the experts. But we've also had` seen just this week, community groups like The Fono having to provide food, and also physically go door-to-door and track down Covid-positive people. Should there be more being done like that? And should you have relied more on the churches as hubs for testing, and vaccination, and communication? - We've always relied on the churches, right from the outset. And so, if you look outside of Auckland, you're getting all of that done in Porirua, in Napier, Flaxmere, in Taupo, in Rotorua, Waikato, in Christchurch, and all the way down in Otago. Here in Auckland, you've got, you know, a huge population. You've also got a very complex system here. So, we are relying on our health officials, but more particularly our providers, our Pacific health providers, like The Fono, like South Seas. And those are the people that we're trying to get the resources to, to make sure that they are being supported in the work that they do. - Okay, so are you happy for groups like The Fono` are they necessary to make sure that families, big Pacific families, are getting, say, the food that they need, when they have to isolate. Is the level of support` Are you happy that the level of support is there? - Look, we need to ramp it up, because the longer we are in level 4, and the more families who, through testing, have been identified as positive, obviously, we've got to provide that support. So, we're working very, very closely with the Pacific providers, as well as the agencies, to make sure that we're identifying the needed support, and in getting that support to them as quickly as we can. - I just wanted to ask you, as Pacific Peoples Minister, were you consulted before Ashley Bloomfield identified the Samoan community as being at the centre of the AOG sub-cluster? - Look, I think it's important that in the dealing with Delta, when locations of interest are really important, all the events at the churches, sports, or whether it's schools, occurred before we identified the Case A on the 17th. And so, people were, you know, naturally in these mass gatherings, people are going to kiss, and hug, and shake hands. And so, it was important that we identify the location, so that people could self-identify if they had been close contacts of that event. - Okay. And Minister, if you can just help me out, just` if you could just take your little microphone, your headphone microphone, away from your lei there. Yeah, that's good, so it stops the rustling. So, you say it was important to identify the location, and... but, there has been criticism of that. I mean, because other sub-clusters haven't been labelled with any particular ethnicity, like in Devonport, or in Birkdale. - Yeah. Yeah. Look... - So, does labelling` does labelling it or using an ethnicity, rather than just saying Pasifika, contribute to the online vitriol that has happened? - It was a risk that would occur. But I reached in to the church leadership prior to the announcement, and reached in to their national leadership, to indicate that the public interest was really, really important for us. And we need it, to be able to give indication to the general public` friends and family members, who are not members of that church, but could have been at that event, to be able to self-identify. I was also mindful of just the multiple vulnerabilities of our communities, not only with multiple illnesses, but many of them are front line and essential workers. So, we had to work quickly within a 24-hour framework, and then a 48-hour framework, to try and identify as many people. - So, it was just` it was justified, in this circumstance. - Yes, I mean, it is unfortunate, that the way that messaging actually goes out there, it did invite, sort of, the bad, racist commentary that we saw. But I indicated that we would try to do as much as we can to just tell the story, that this is our common enemy. The Delta virus is our common enemy, not the people. And we need to work together to rebuff all that. - Okay. Just finally, Minister, other leaders like Efeso Collins have been out saying that there's been a bit of, almost tokenism from the government. He said, quote, 'You know, just hire a Tongan or a Samoan when there's a job to be done, and then you're out the door again when you're not needed.' Have they been included at the planning and design stage? And if not, why not? - Well, we have a Pacific expert advisory committee that advises me and a number of other groups, of which we're relying on expertise, and also in the community, certainly in the community nationwide Zooms. Manase, Efeso Collins, they will all get invited to be` to attend those fonos, and we seek input from them, so that we can include that in the way that we respond. - Right. So you're saying that there has been full inclusion. - Look, we give everybody the opportunity to feed into our fono ` nationwide, regional, language specific, and we'll continue to maintain that, as part of our civic wellbeing approach. - Okay. Minister For Pacific Peoples, Aupito William Sio. Thank you very much for your time this morning. - Thank you very much. - Okay, if you've got a news tip, please get in touch. We're on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram. Or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz Joining us online, our Twitter panel this morning is Tim McCready and Bevan Chuang. They're using the hashtag #NationNZ. E whai ake nei, we dissect this extraordinary week with our panel, Jo Moir and Agnes Loheni. Plus, what happens if our elimination strategy just doesn't work? Hoki mai ano, welcome back. The Ministry of Health has revealed 59 essential workers have tested positive for COVID-19. It's nearly a fifth of the outbreak. Health experts say the government should be telling us every day how many positive cases were active in the community while contagious. That number is crucial to judge the success of New Zealand's lockdown and whether elimination will work. Senior reporter Conor Whitten explains. On the beach... - Is there a reason why you guys are here today? - On the streets... - You got a little bit lost. - I'm new to this place, mate. - And on the beach. - You've come on the motorway, it's obviously not essential travel. - It's a bit far out the way from our house. We joined police from a two meter distance as they enforce lockdown rules. - They just come down for a trip to the beach, That's the kind of stuff we're trying to prevent. - Staying home is our best defence against Delta. By far, the most effective tool that we have right now is Level 4. But not everyone is on the level. - I don't really agree with our Prime Minister just saying, 'No, you guys can't go out just cos some guy in Auckland is sick.' - So police have launched a lockdown crackdown. 69 people have been charged for breaches, about 700 issued fines. Police Commissioner Andrew Coster says it's more than this point in Level four last year. - It's higher. And the reason for that is that we've had a shorter fuse in moving towards enforcement in this lockdown than we had and the previous one. The reason for that is with the Delta variant, we can't really have any tolerance for large gatherings. - Compliance is vital to eliminating Delta, more than twice as contagious as other COVID strains. It wasn't clear Level 4 would be enough to contain it. But 11 days into lockdown, COVID-19 modeller Professor Michael Plank says we're starting to see promising signs. - We've seen the cases creep up over the last couple of days, but they haven't shot up dramatically. And I think that's a good early sign that we are starting to bend the curve. - It means elimination is still possible. - I think the chances are very good. - But Professor Michael Baker says we need more details. Not just how many cases, but who. - We need to know something about those cases. I mean, what proportion of them were just household members of known cases so they weren't in quarantine? Versus cases in essential workers. - The Ministry of Health has now revealed 59 essential workers have tested positive for COVID-19, 17% of the current outbreak. - What we don't want to say is, is cases cropping up in large numbers of essential workers, or spreading between bubbles or mystery cases popping up. - Essential services come face to face with the public. We asked how many of those 59 people had passed the virus to others at work. But the Ministry of Health couldn't say, nor could they answer how many cases have spread between bubbles at alert Level 4. - We would like to see clear numbers going forward on how many people have been infectious in the community. That is important information that we will need to see. - Those details are regularly reported in Australia. Experts say they could be the difference between elimination and continued spread. And the stakes could not be higher. A glance across the Tasman reveals why. - We no longer have an outbreak. We have an epidemic of COVID-19 in New South Wales. - Two months ago, Sydney discovered a single community case of Delta. An unmasked, unvaccinated driver transporting flight crew to MIQ. Today, it's become a health disaster, one case ballooning to more than 16000. With up to a thousand new cases a day, Australia's abandoning elimination. - You can't stay here forever. And if not at 70 and 80%, then when? - And its Prime Minister claims New Zealand will, too. - Any state and territory that thinks that somehow they can protect themselves from COVID with the Delta strain forever, that's just absurd. I mean, New Zealand can't do that. They were following an elimination strategy. They're in lockdown. - Professor Quentin Grafton is a COVID modeller at the Australian National University. - Don't believe that message, OK. Living with the virus means dying with the virus. - He's part of new research published this week that says Australia's plan to reopen could cost tens of thousands of lives. - If some people think that %70 vaccination target is going to give you a free ride in terms of zero fatalities, very low numbers and zero` very low hospitalisations, they're living in a fantasy world. - The research found dropping all public health measures once 80% of Austria is vaccinated could lead to 25,000 deaths. Grafton says they need 90% vaccination of every Australian from 5-years-old. - We're suggesting the minimum is 90%, including children. That's a decision that New Zealanders need to make, what they are prepared to accept. - Similar research in New Zealand found even 90% vaccination could lead to more than a thousand deaths. - The message is that at a certain point, we will have a hard choice to make. - Professor Baker was part of that research in New Zealand. He says We may change our elimination strategy in future, but the best thing for now is wait. - With every passing week, we're seeing advances in terms of our understanding of the pandemic and how to manage it. - So the longer we can maintain elimination, the more options we have? - Exactly. First is getting back to elimination. Professor Plank says it won't come fast. - I think it will take several weeks, you know, even in a best case scenario. - And with so many cases in essential services, alert Level 4 could be here to stay. Connor Whitten reporting there. So time now for our political panel. Former National MP Agnes Loheni in Auckland, and Newsroom's political editor, Jo Moir are joining us. Tena korua Welcome to you both this morning. First question to you, Joe. Level 4 for Auckland and other two weeks at least, did the government have any choice? - Nah, I don't think they had a choice at all. And to be honest, I think, you know, the South Island was talking about being quite optimistic about, you know, dropping more levels than that, and I think the reality is that you have to do that 14 day incubation period. You just don't know with delta. We've heard time and time again about how it's a completely different virus. And you just have to treat it that way and you have to err on the side of caution, I guess. And the same goes with Auckland, really. I mean, I don't think anyone in Auckland really thought that they were going to, you know, fly out of that Level 4 any time soon. So I genuinely think where things have landed in terms of those levels is probably where most people thought they would. - Yeah. Agnes, though, are we gonna get buy-in from the South Island? There seems to be a level of disappointment from the business community down there that they're having to go to Level 3. - Well, I think that's purely acceptable that they'll be disappointed at this stage. Look, in terms of did the government have any choice? They didn't actually do any work to give us any other options. It's been a snail pace in terms of vaccinations, and so we're here because of that lack of planning. And look, I feel gutted for all small businesses. Actually, everyone. Lockdown 4, uh, Level 4 is tough. And 3, you know, it's actually not that different. - Yeah, but just on that, I mean, the Prime Minister held up a graph the 1 o'clock briefing Showing how the vaccination rate was climbing or peaking very well. Do you not believe that this is the answer to our problems? - It is definitely the answer. We just wish that graph had gone up earlier. And we may not be in this situation right now if those rates had been higher far earlier. - Joe, does Agnos have a point? From a political point of view that the government is taking a few body blows over this vaccination rate? - Oh, absolutely they are. And, you know, rightly so as well. We haven't seen vaccinations ramp up as quickly as they could, and obviously we didn't get vaccinations in the country as quickly as we could have as well. You know, back in mid-July, we had the ability to be vaccinating 50,000 people a day then, or 50,000 doses, at least. But we didn't see that figure actually get hit until the day before we went into national lockdown. Now, of course, we've seen those big numbers since, you know, the 80,000's, etc. But we're in the middle of a pandemic now. And I guess it's probably one thing that, you know, the public is critical of, is well as that these briefings that we've been having daily have been starting with the good news of that vaccination rate. Well, that's all good and well. But actually, the bad news that comes after that is the number of cases that we have. And a lot of people would argue that those great vaccination numbers should have been a lot earlier, so I think Agnes does have a point here. - OK. One of the other things I mean, as Michael Baker says, we're a team of 5 million epidemiologists now, OK? So, if you're talking about the 1 o'clock briefing, but one of the bits of information that is missing in that` Connor's story just, you know, highlighted, is that the number of essential workers that are, one, infected, and two, the key detail about how many people have been infectious in the community? Agnes, should they be providing that as a sort of level of clarity to this team of 5 million? - Absolutely, I mean, I think about, you know, we talk about the Pacific community, and a lot of our Pacific people from South Auckland are actually working on the front line in those roles and security at the testing stations, at the MIQ facilities, and we do need to be upfront about those numbers. We want to see them. - Yeah. So is there any rationale, Jo, for as to why` has the government provided any reason why they haven't been providing that kind of insight? Because we did see during, you know, during the Australian outbreak, every single day, they say X number infections in the community. - No, we haven't had a rationale for it, and, you know, it is frustrating when` As one of those journalists who sits in those press conferences every day, and those questions get asked and they don't get answered. And that Essential worker question has been asked for a couple of days now, and the information hasn't been forthcoming and it hasn't been forthcoming from the Ministry of Health either. Like you say, we all do think we're a little bit of an epidemiologist these days, and we know what those numbers mean, and I guess we also know what those numbers will affect in terms of, you know, what the future might look like and what levels might look like. So if you don't have that information, it creates a lot of uncertainty. And I think there's a lot of people out there going, 'Well, you know, we'd like to know how much this is in the community,' and we're just not getting it. And, you know, I would say it's even more than the essential workers, I think there's some really fundamental questions there that aren't getting answered. So, you know, I'll just make the point that yesterday Rukuwai from Maori Television, you know, she asked for about the fourth or fifth time, I think it was, about what they were going to do about vaccinations for the homeless, a particularly vulnerable community. She's asked that question every day for a week now, and it hasn't been answered. And the Ministry of Health hasn't provided the information either. So you're going along, you're asking these questions, and you're just not getting the answers. - Is this an indication that the Ministry of Health, I mean, there has been criticism from National and other people that they haven't been planning properly for a Delta outbreak. And so does, Agnes, does this lead to your criticism that there hasn't been that level of planning? There hasn't been that level of readiness? You know, we're talking not only vaccinations, we're talking about ICU beds. We're talking about how you deal with, you know, the number of people that need to go into quarantine, we've had to open up another quarantine hotel. Are These are all indicators that there is not an adequate level of planning? - I think those are more than enough indicators to show that there has been a lack of planning. And look, we've had the opportunity to see what's been happening overseas. We've had that lag so we could see what was going on overseas, and we should have been far better prepared. And the first one is, I still say it's still around vaccinations that would have given us a better vantage point to at least have mitigated these levels earlier. And look, we don't know now because it's what happened. And people are now` Great that people are now going to get vaccinated. But it would have helped at least to just prevent where we are now. - But that includes people in the Pacific community. We've seen the stats out saying that, you know, 40 plus for the Pacific community, leading the way, but Agnes the Pacific community has been somewhat critical, and also being critical about sort of the naming and identifying of an ethnicity at the AoG sub-cluster. Is that is that fair criticism, and has it led to sort of an outpouring of vitriol? - It is fair criticism that the Ministry of course, it's important for them to have data on various groups so they can provide some target support. But it is not helpful, and perhaps very much mischievous to have that reported like that, because as we've seen what's happened is that been targeted with some very nasty messages. So, look, I don't know, media actually do know better and they should do better on that. - All right. And just one last quick question for you, Jo. Level 4 Mark II for Jacinda Ardern, how's her performance comparing to last time? - Yeah, I mean, it is different. I definitely think that there has been changes and, you know, it probably does come back to that point that's been made about the fact that everyone kind of just has that sort of baseline knowledge of this virus. Now, admittedly, data is quite different. But, you know, I think the sort of the preamble that you get before you get to the actual sort of guts of levels announcements and how many cases there are, I think probably people are getting a little bit weary of that. I have noticed in the last day or two that she has stopped that and is now jumping into the information, and possibly that's a reaction, I guess, to people saying, 'Look, we're sick and tired of sort of, sort of, 15-16`' - The positivity, yeah. (LAUGHS) too much positivity. OK, thank you. That's all we've got time for. Our panel, Agnes Loheni and Jo Moir. Thank you very much for your time this morning. - Thank you. Coming up, reaction from a soon to be level 3 South Island, but first, will our new normal be here in time for summer holidays? A special report from Anna Bracewell-Worrall on vaccination rates. - Hoki mai ano, welcome back. Record numbers of people are getting vaccinated in an accelerated rollout under the lockdown conditions, but while most people couldn't be keener to protect themselves or others, nearly a quarter of the population isn't into it. Anna Bracewell-Worrall reports. - It's the only show in town, and it just got even more popular. - I want to keep our country safe from the Covid. And the Covid killers in here are doing a wonderful job. - It's 10am, and all these stickers are the names of people who have already rolled up for the ticket out of this global pandemic ` the Pfizer vaccine, at a clinic run by South Seas Healthcare in Otara. - Just doing our part, getting vaccinated. I think it's important. - Keep my family safe. - I think it's for your own safety, but then it's for the safety of the wider community and the wider country. - Health and safety for me and my family. - To protect people like my nana. - Not too bad for the needle shy either. - I thought she was trying to look for a place to do it, but she'd already finished. - Two doses of the Pfizer vaccine are 88% effective against the Delta variant of Covid-19, and the protection it offers against hospitalisation is a whopping 96%. The government doesn't have a vaccination goal, and without children being vaccinated, and with new strains mutating, herd immunity, without other controls, while not impossible, would be challenging. But the more people who are vaccinated, the more effective the control of the disease. - When most of the community is vaccinated, it makes it difficult for the disease to spread. - But some people aren't queuing up to get it done. Ministry of Health surveys have found 23% of the population is somewhere between unsure, or definitely not getting vaccinated. - We now know the youngest positive case is not even a year old. - The current outbreak will be a wake up call for some of the vaccine-hesitant. - With the rise in the cases, and rise in vaccination rates that's available for the general public, we have seen all over the world that there is a slight bump in getting a vaccine. So we're likely to see that here as well. - The three most common concerns the vaccine-hesitant hold are side effects, long-term effects, and the approval process. GP and immunology expert Dr Nikki Turner says side effects are rare. - It's been used internationally in hundreds and hundreds of millions of doses. There is extensive international safety data. - For those worried about possible long-term effects ` - You would see early signs in immune conditions, in other conditions, now, if you're going to see anything in 20 years time. So, there are no signs, and no signals. We're very confident. Nothing is going to suddenly appear in 20 years time. - As for the perceived speed of the approval process ` - Every step in the process of making these vaccines has been followed. So this just shows you what can happen when the international science community gets its act together. - And no, it doesn't alter your genetic material. A portion of the vaccine-hesitant are people who are uncertain about the vaccine, and want reassurance on specific safety questions. - If you want to reach them, we have to go through` get to them through social media. -And if education isn't working, prizes might. The state of Ohio ran a lottery prize draw, making five people millionaires. - We will be able to get 60-70% vaccination rates immediately, very quickly, as soon as the vaccine is out. But then it's going to stall. Then, just like the U.S., we might have to incentivise people to get vaccinated, particularly the younger groups. - But there's another group, hardcore anti-vaxxers. About 8% of the population. They've already decided they won't get the vaccine, and they don't want to be convinced to get it. - They don't even trust social media information, or mainstream channels, or experts, or scientists. The only source of information that they trust is family and friends. So for the sceptics, we need more localised campaigns and local leaders, you know, talking about it with their communities. - Vaccine misinformation is spread by organised anti-vax groups, as well as some churches, including Destiny Church, and City Impact Church, which denies it is sharing this information. - There's a fear that somehow or other, a great global conspiracy is going to take away the rights and freedoms of Christians to practise their faith. And so, in one way or another, they want to object to the all powerful state, squeezing them into their mould. - It's just a few churches, but they have big congregations. - People like this carry quite a lot of influence, because their churches are mega churches, with hundreds and thousands of people attending them. - But while thousands may have heard vaccine-hesitant messages, it's an historic truth that not everyone does what they're told to in church. - Plenty of people in Destiny and in City Impact Church have been vaccinated. It's not that everybody thinks the same way. - In every pocket of society, even those hearing anti-vax messages from their leaders, there are people who can be reached and convinced. - What we know from, you know, decades of research, is that, uh, I likely to do an action which is popular and easy for me, and is respected by others members in my community. - The benefits are clear on a personal level. - Hugely grateful to be fully vaccinated. I'm a frontline GP, and I feel grateful every day when I go to work, that I have that degree of protection. - And a collective one. - The more people in New Zealand vaccinated, the less this virus can spread throughout our community, and will offer more protection to all of us. - (SPEAKS SAMOAN) - Go get vaccinated. (LAUGHS) - Anna Bracewell-Worrall reporting there. E whai ake nei, we cross live for the South Island for reaction to the coming move to level 3. Plus, who's up and who's down in politics online? Welcome back. So a bit more Level 4 before a week of Level 3 for everyone south of Auckland. With no known COVID cases in the South Island, some businesses there were hoping for level 2. So how do they feel about the stricter measures? Bruce Smith is the mayor of Westland and he joins me now. Good morning to you. Thanks for your time. So Level 3 on Tuesday, is that the result that you wanted? - No, it's it's a bit frustrating, Simon, you know, to have Wellington with, say, 14 active cases and the South Island with none, and to us all be on the same level. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And, you know, my I have to say that my thoughts last night were with the business community, which, you know, we see lots on TV, and it's always health professionals, We don't see our business community that keeps us alive. And my thoughts are with them, because while the subsidies have worked really well for staff, they're the people who wake up every morning looking at their insurance payments, their lease payments, the repayments on their cars and all of their overheads. They just can't` you know, that they are in a dreadful position and I just feel terribly sorry for them. - All right. Well, first of all, I mean, at the beginning of Level 4, you were quoted as saying we need to play along with the rules. Some Mitre 10 people were in Auckland at a party and they came back down to the West Coast. And there are contacts of the Auckland cluster spread throughout the South Island. So it might not be a popular decision, but surely it's the right one for the health and safety? - Well, I think we as a community, we supported fully the first lockdown to Level 4. However, there are no cases in the South Island. There are 99% of the south island has never seen COVID in any form whatsoever. And the damage that it's doing to our economy is something that, you know, it has health problems. It has economic problems. AND I just feel terribly sorry for the uncertainty that exists. - So, I mean, as you say, insurance policies, wage subsidies have been trying to keep people afloat. This is` You're saying it's another kick in the shins for the West Coast economy and for the South Island economy. How would you describe, you know, what stories can you bring to us about how people are coping? - Well, you know, I can I can tell you about people who are right on the absolute edge who thought that they might be able to make it to Christmas and they can't. And their health position, their mental health position is really stressed. And it's in my office, I get regular people who are in the tourism sector and in the service sector coming in, telling me about the fact that 40 years of their life has just been destroyed in front of their eyes. It's not their fault. It's really terrible. It's something that we as the people should be looking at and saying the mix between our economy and our health where there's no COVID needs to be balanced. - OK. But do you not agree with the prime minister and everybody else in government who say that a strong health response is a strong economic response? I think that the people who say that all being paid by the state, they get their pay every Thursday. It doesn't make a lot of difference to them. But coming out into the real world, and you'll find it's totally different. Is Wellington deaf to your concerns? - Well, I think it's very focussed on a health response, and a one-size-fits all, when that's not I mean, the reality is COVID is with us. It's no different polio back in my grandparents days. And the only way that we can fix it is mass` We've got to be vaccinated. And I'd encourage everybody to get vaccinated. But even then, it's still going to come in. It'll come in from overseas. It's part of our lives from here on in, and we need to adapt. - Are you not concerned that` I mean, we run stories with epidemiologists in Australia just in this programme saying that, you know, a living with the virus strategy is a dying with the virus strategy. So, I mean, that could mean that, you know, South Island, once COVID free, could actually see COVID deaths. - Well, look, there's lots of people who have different opinions, different agendas. I wear a very south island` And I really feel for our business community. Fresh snow in Wanaka and Queenstown, there's no people. I mean, Level 3, I agree with whoever it was that said that Level 3 is Level 4 with takeaways. - Do you think that` I mean New Zealand has been compliant so far. We've seen other countries` Like what we see in, say, Sydney, Melbourne, not being compliant when the government introduces lockdowns. Do you think that the South Island will not be compliant? - No, I don't, and I certainly wouldn't encourage that. I feel a tension in the community that's rising, and it's a greater tension than I've felt in all the years that I've been floating around, I've never felt a tension like it. And I would encourage people to` I mean, we have to stick to whatever decision has been made. This discussion is about, is it the right decision? - OK. Bruce Smith, Westland Mayor, thank you so much for your time this morning. - Thank you. - Stay with us. We'll be back after the break. which means almost all our daily politicking is now taking place digitally. Earlier, I spoke to digital editor Finn Hogan, and asked him which MPs are dominating pandemic politics on social media? - Well, some of it's not too surprising, Simon. Of course, with the return of the lockdown show, starring Jacinda Ardern at 1:00 p.m., the PM has seen a massive boost to her numbers, but that's not that surprising. She's viewership in the millions, but we saw this last time around. I think it's a bit more interesting to look beneath that in the numbers, to see who's coming in number two, and it's David Seymour. Still, in that kind of effective opposition leader slot, at least on Facebook. And he's doing that by posting, kind of, a constant stream of Facebook lives, which Facebook really rewards, and then kind of more 'memeable' content, which is humorous, but it's very effective, and drives engagement. - All right. What about the official opposition, National? Where are they in this? - Yeah, it's interesting, because Judith Collins isn't doing terribly, but she's actually being outdone by a couple of her own MPs. Simon O'Connor and Chris Bishop in particular, who are actually beating her across pretty much every metric, particularly because they're posting nearly twice as much as any other MP during lockdown. - So, is that the secret? They're just posting a lot. - Well, yeah, look, there is an element of quantity over quality when it comes to social media, but there is sort of a more serious point here, in that lockdown is a golden opportunity for the opposition, if they can get the tone right. So these guys are taking advantage of that. And if you look at the kind of stuff they're posting, Chris Bishop is a really good example here, of choosing quite savvy, sort of, meme-heavy, more irreverent posts, which really do appeal to a younger audience. But again, the serious point beneath that, is that parliament has been suspended. Select committees are meeting via Zoom, but the Pandemic Response select committee has not returned, despite National pushing for it to do so. So, in a very real sense, all of the holding of government to account is taking place online. And increasingly, that means social media, too. - Right. So that's the individual MPs, but what about, I mean, how are the political parties themselves doing? - Yeah, well, if we look at the main pages of the political parties, National, the main page itself, has actually been doing really well, going head-to-head against the Labour main page, which is surprising, because they've got fewer followers, and traditionally they haven't been as strong. And it's particularly surprising if you compare it to last time around. During the last lockdown, National's page was getting absolutely decimated by Labour. So, it's interesting. If you look at this time, it shows that attitudes have shifted, and lockdown is not like an automatic win for the government online as it has been previously. - And what about the smaller parties? - Yeah, I mean, there's an interesting study in contrasts here. Like, the Green Party, for example, has sort of dropped off the map completely. They're posting the least, and they're actually losing followers during lockdown, which is a bit surprising, considering Facebook used to be a really strong area for them. And then if we compare them to Te Paati Maori, the Maori Party, they're posting the most and they're actually growing the fastest. And they're doing it with this quite creative mix of content, all on their own hashtag #MaoriOnLock. And they're doing, like, mindfulness courses, live stream fitness, to sort of build the sense of community in lockdown. And it's` you know, it's good content to create, but it's very well-rewarded by Facebook, because Facebook rewards that kind of variety. So, they're playing the game quite well. - Yeah, I see the Outdoor Party is also registering there. Why are they getting more traction than, say, the Green Party? - Yeah, I mean, this is sort of the darker side of lockdown. The outdoor party started as, kind of, an environmentally-focused, sort of, alternative to the Green Party. But unfortunately, they've been co-opted pretty strongly by conspiracy thinking around 1080 and vaccines, and that's giving them, unfortunately, a bit of a bump on Facebook. As we see previously, that kind of content does unfortunately do well on Facebook. - Right. Everybody's at home, everybody's online, and that allows conspiracy thinking to sort of thrive. - There are some concerning trends, if we look a little bit deeper. So, for example, if you look at Google Trends data, searches for things around vaccine deaths are at the highest rate ever in this lockdown, even compared to previous lockdown. So, those sort of conspiracy adjacent terms. And what's important to remember is, social media algorithms, particularly on YouTube, will always serve you a progressively more extreme version of the thing that you've searched for. So, you might wake up at 10 a.m. and search for 'vaccine death'. By 4pm., you've got a video that's five hours long about Bill Gates coming to microchip your children. So, it's very important to remember that a lot of Kiwis at home with only the Internet for company, it's pretty easy to fall down rabbit holes. - As always, finally, an honourable mention from you. - Well, yes, I just wanted to give a quick shout out to Labour MP Anahila Kanongata'a Suisuiki. She just did very, very well during lockdown, with her live streams. She's doing these, kind of, daily updates in bilingual Tongan and English, and it's given her the most Facebook video views of any MP, except for Jacinda Ardern. And it's a good contrast to some of the stuff we were just talking about. If social media has any positive use during lockdown, it's to do stuff like that, so good on her. - Digital Editor Finn Hogan, thanks very much. - Thank you very much, Simon. - Finn Hogan reporting there. Time now for our political panel again. Former National MP Agnes Loheni in Auckland, and Newsroom's political editor Jo Moir in Wellington. Thank you again for your time. Jo, we saw that the Aussie PM Scott Morrison has been pretty critical of New Zealand's approach and elimination strategy. Should we be paying any attention to him? - Yeah, look, I think this is just one of these sorts of war of words type situations. You know, you had the prime minister calling out Australia over the last week or so, as you know, when people said, 'Well, why are we cracking down, 'having this lockdown, putting everyone behind doors?' And she sort of said, 'Well, one word, look to Australia.' So, it the almost kind of feels as if Scott Morrison is maybe responding to that. You know, some of his points are valid in terms of the elimination strategy stuff. And you can't actually` until you get that vaccination rate up, you're not going to be able to open up. And he is realistic about that with New South Wales, as well, in that they need to get that vaccination rate up. So, I think in some ways, Scott Morrison and Jacinda Ardern are still on a similar page. You know, you have to pursue that elimination strategy until you get the country vaccinated. And in terms of New Zealand at the moment, and those two doses, you know, we're still sitting around that 30% mark, which is incredibly dangerous, and not a situation where you're going to open up and say, 'Oh, well, we'll just live with Covid, then.' - Agnes, I mean, you raised the point earlier about, you know, how vaccination rates should have been higher earlier, but Jacinda Ardern said she's not fussed about those kind of comments from Scott Morrison. - Look, I think` I agree with what Jo said, I think it is a bit tit for tat here, but at the end of the day, we should be paying attention to what's going on overseas. Taking note of something, that doesn't mean we're going to copy it, but we need to learn some lessons from what else is going on around here so we don't make those mistakes. End of the day, you know, it is still about vaccination rates. - That's right. And now, we just saw in Anna's report in the show, that the Ministry of Health surveys saying up to 25% may be unlikely, or will not get the vaccine, or are vaccine-hesitant. I mean, is the government doing enough to turn this around? - Yeah, I mean, I think the big difference here will be who are anti-vaxxers, and who are vaccine-hesitant, because, bear in mind, if you're vaccine hesitant, you can change people's minds on that. And I think that we probably will already, if not have already, started to see that, in terms of Delta, and the fear factor that comes with that. I think people who perhaps were hesitant, will see what Delta has done overseas. And, you know, it's now here, and will go, well, actually, you know, maybe I do need that extra layer of protection. - Okay, everything` Parliament has been suspended because of lockdown. So, we're seeing everything happen out online, both on social media, and in terms of the select committees. But in terms of the social media presence, Finn Hogan's just reporting that National, Agnes, is doing really well on its home page, but that could be due to the efforts of MPs, rather than the leader, Judith Collins. - Well, end of the day, they are MPs in opposition, and it just goes to show that, New Zealanders still believe in a democracy, they still want to have oversight, and scrutiny, particularly at this time where our freedoms and liberties have, you know, basically been restricted due to these lockdowns. And so, people are wanting to have that conversation about` and actually just not be fearful of having a conversation about what other options could be. And so, not surprising that opposition pages have been quite busy. - Yeah. And two MPs picked out in particular, and one of them, Chris Bishop. But news of a national mini reshuffle, Jo, and Chris Bishop has lost the leader of the House. What can we read into that? - Yeah, I think Chris Bishop will be disappointed, because that is a role that he's very passionate about, and cares about. In saying that, he has a massive job with that Covid portfolio. And, you know, for the most part, I actually think he's doing a good job of balancing, sort of, critiquing, scrutinising, Chris Hipkins, in particular, and not getting too negative. So, if he's got more time to focus on that, that's great. But let's be honest, I mean, Chris Bishop has obviously, let's say, annoyed Judith Collins a little bit, in terms of that conversion therapy decision that was made by National not to vote for the first reading of that, which upset Chris Bishop, he got himself in a situation where, you know, it was made public that he was not happy about that vote. And, in some ways, I guess, Judith Collins is possibly looking to demote him a little bit, in response to that, but not making it too obvious. - Agnes, is that how you would read it? - No, not at all. I think, as you said before, Chris Bishop's page has been very active, and he's been very popular out there, and he's done an excellent job on that portfolio and Covid-19 response. It's a huge portfolio. And I think this allows them to really focus on it more, and spend more time on it. - Okay, we'll just mention the Green Party. Seems to have gone off the radar, Jo. I mean, what is happening there? They traditionally have been very strong online. - Well, I think what's happening there is you've got a situation where The Greens are kind of in government, kind of not, ministers, but not in cabinet. It's a very, sort of, difficult situation for them. And I think actually last time I was on the panel with you, Simon, and we were talking about the Greens and the difficult position that Marama Davidson is in, in terms of trying to, you know, be a bit of an activist, still, while being a minister. So, you know, this is a situation where you've got Covid. The country is in lockdown again. Labour is running the party here. There's not really a role for the Greens. And for whatever reason, they've decided not to be particularly critical or, you know, just point out where things could be done differently. I mean, I would have liked to have seen Marama Davidson be a bit more vocal about the South Auckland community, for example, and vaccination rates. But, you know, they've obviously made the decision not to do that. - Yeah, okay. No space for the Greens voice at the moment. And thank you so much to our panel this morning, Jo Moir and Agnes Loheni. And that is also all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching, nga mihi nui. Kia haumaru. Kia pai to ra. Stay safe, and we will see you again next weekend. Captions by John Gibbs and Phoebe Upton Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 This programme was made with the assistance of the New Zealand On Air Platinum Fund.