- Today on Newshub Nation, our second terrorist attack in as many years ` a country in shock. We talk to the journalist who's been researching the terrorist since 2017 and attended his trial. And to Delta, a top scientist calls them 'virus factories.' How our school buildings are geared to spread the virus. Tena tatou katoa, I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. The country is reeling this morning, following an horrific attack at a Countdown supermarket in Auckland's New Lynn. Six shoppers were stabbed on Friday. Three of them critically. The prime minister has said their attacker was ISIS-inspired. He was shot dead by police officers at the scene. On Friday night, the crown filed to have the courts urgently lift suppression orders, so that the public can know more about the background of the terrorist. The prime minister has said she wants to be able to share as much as possible about the Sri Lankan man who moved to New Zealand in 2011. And in pandemic news, there were 28 community cases of Delta announced Friday, bringing our total number in this outbreak to 764. Auckland remains in level 4 lockdown, with the rest of the country at level 3. Six people injured, six whanau devastated, and shock around the country. And questions raised in the wake of another terrorist attack on New Zealand soil. - This afternoon, at approximately 2.40pm, a violent extremist undertook a terrorist attack on innocent New Zealanders. - A lone man yelling 'Allahu Akbar' ran through a West Auckland supermarket, stabbing people before he was shot dead. - Shoppers fleeing for their lives. (SIREN BLARES) - People were pretty much driving into each other, almost, to get out of the car park. - Everybody just started running. - White ladies in front of me, he just went and started stabbing, then he went 'Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar', and then I just realised after that, 'Oh, my God, I have to run.' - And then we heard about, like, six or seven gunshots, and everyone just kind of freaked out. Everyone ran into the pharmacy. (GUNSHOTS) - A lot of people ran up to me and said, 'Just run, just run.' And he's like, 'I'm a undercover cop. Get back, get back. 'I'm going to shoot him.' And then I just step back, and then he start` bang! Like five, five, five, six shots. And he was laying on the floor. - The staff involved did not only what we expect they would do in this situation, but did it with great courage. - This was a violent attack. It was senseless. And I'm so sorry it happened. - Breaking news from the Herald's Jared Savage this morning, the name suppression will be lifted for the ICIS-inspired terrorist, but the name won't be known until later tonight. His colleague, a Herald senior journalist, Sam Hurley, has also been researching the terrorist since 2017, including attending several of his court appearances and his trial. He joins me now. Tena koe, Sam, thanks for your time this morning. There's a sense of shock, but you've been researching this person for four years. Can you summarise for us what led to Friday's attacks at LynnMall? - Yeah, thanks, Simon. You're right, it's a complete shock, for, particularly the people of West Auckland, but I've been following this particular person for about four years now. He, like you mentioned, he came to New Zealand in 2011 from Sri Lanka. And for the first few years, while he was in New Zealand, it didn't appear that he had any sort of extremist beliefs whatsoever. But then in 2016, he came to the attention of police and authorities because of what he was posting on his Facebook page. And some of it was some pretty graphic material, and showed some sympathy and allegiance towards Islamic State. And it was from there that police really started to watch him closely, and it led to several charges, and court proceedings, and eventually led to yesterday's attack. - Okay, so look, if he came to New Zealand in 2011, but didn't come to the attention of the authorities till 2016, does that suggest he was radicalised here? - Potentially, it does. Like I say, the first few years he was in New Zealand, there weren't any obvious signs that he was an extremist. And it wasn't until 2016, in the autumn of 2016, when he started to post these radicalised extremist beliefs on his social media pages, and he was talking about, you know, sympathy for the terrorists who had carried out the attacks in Paris and Brussels, and other such terror incidents around the world. And then from there, he began to post more extreme material, which included videos and scenes of graphic violence. Then, probably of more concern to police, was that he went and bought a large hunting knife. And he, in fact, did this twice. After the first knife was confiscated, he went and bought an identical knife. You know, these are` these aren't your typical kitchen knives. These were large hunting knives that you would buy from a special shop. - Okay. So that was of more concern to police. You also reported that he tried to leave the country in 2017. Was this the same time that he's buying these knives, and he seemed to be active? - Yes. So at that time, he had a knife. He was arrested at Auckland Airport in 2017. He'd bought a one-way ticket to Singapore. And it was thought at that time, and still is believed, that he was on his way to Syria to fight for Islamic State. And police had said that they had intelligence that would show that he had also spoken to a worshipper at a Auckland mosque, where this` this man, this terrorist, had told the fellow worshipper that he intended to travel to Syria and fight for Islamic State. And so it's believed that that's what he was planning to do. - And they prevented him from leaving. Is that correct? - That's right. They arrested him at the airport, and charged him with several charges, including possession of offensive material, and possession of offensive weapon, being the knife. - Okay. - Yeah. - Is it those charges that ended up in court that you were covering? And is it those sort of charges which he was sentenced on, but still let out into the community? That's right. There were actually two separate` he had two separate cases. So, the first case, he faced charges for possession of` of restricted material, and ended up pleading guilty to those charges. He was sentenced to supervision, and then he was released, pending his sentence. But upon his release, almost immediately, the day after, he went and bought another large hunting knife, which then resulted in him being taken back into custody, and facing further charges. That, as you know, Simon, these legal proceedings can take years, so that then progressed through the trial, which occurred this year. And he faced those additional charges. And that's what he was` was sentenced to more supervision in May. And then he was released, once that sentence was handed out. - And, Sam, now to the nub of the story, why was he in the community? Did the judge, in this particular case, try and keep him behind bars, or raise any red flags about this person being let into the community? And is that why he was under surveillance by police? - Yeah, it's a very interesting case, Simon. Because the Crown last year actually tried to charge him as a terrorist. They attempted to` to charge him. And he would be the second only person in New Zealand, behind the Christchurch mosque terrorist, to be charged under the Terrorism Suppression Act. So they attempted to do that. Unfortunately, however, the High Court said the legislation simply doesn't allow it. And you can't charge someone with an offence for planning a terrorist attack, which is what the Crown was attempting to do. And so it really shows a bit of a loophole in the law, where someone can plan a terrorist attack, but can't be charged with an offence. So, in that, the Crown and the police really had their hands tied, and they couldn't charge him with` you know, they couldn't keep him in custody for much longer. And as a result, he was facing those lesser charges of possession of objectionable material. - Okay. So he was out in the community. They whacked on surveillance on him. I mean, and you've been covering this. And then yesterday, I just wanted to finally know, what were your thoughts when you heard about the attack in LynnMall? - Yeah. Shock. To be honest, I had a gut feeling it was probably him, immediately. It was exactly what he had said he was going to do, and planned to do. It was a knife attack, which is exactly what he said he was going to do. So I had this horrible feeling that it was probably going to be him. And I knew that he had been spending his supervision sentence at a West Auckland mosque. So the location matched up as well. And unfortunately, as it transpired, it was this terrorist. - Herald senior journalist Sam Hurley, who's been covering this case for the last four years. Thank you so much for your insights. Okay, so it's the second terror attack in New Zealand in just over two years, 51 killed in Christchurch in 2019. Of course, the Muslim Association of Canterbury says it condemns the LynnMall attack, and has set up a Givealittle page for the victims. Imam Gamal Fouda of the Al Noor mosque says they are horrified and grieved, and he says all terrorists are the same regardless of the ideology, whether it's white nationalism or ISIS. This terrorist is not from us, and we are one against terror. Well, Dr Chris Wilson is a terrorism expert who runs the Masters of Conflict and Terrorism Studies at Auckland University. Thank you for joining us this morning, Chris. Knowing what you do about this attacker, can you tell us why he did it? - Almost` you know, we can't get inside the perpetrators head, but almost certainly to... He was inspired by ISIS, and to take revenge for what he sees as the killing of innocent Muslims overseas, which is` goes to the heart of ISIS propaganda, and often to send a message to Western societies that your government can't keep you safe, and to send a message to Western governments that they shouldn't be doing that. - How significant are` - Shouldn't be attacking Muslims overseas. - Right. Okay, so how significant is it that it's an ISIS-inspired kind of attack? And will ISIS globalisers try and take credit for it? - I haven't seen any claims` taking of credit by ISIS yet, but it's very significant in the New Zealand context as our first ISIS-related, ISIS-inspired attack. We've had other convictions for disseminating ISIS-related material propaganda, but this is the first attack that's occurred in New Zealand. It's obviously` it's very significant in the New Zealand context, it's another terrorist attack by a lone actor that's inspired by a broader movement, mostly, almost solely about which they learn about online. And it really shows the danger of that kind of lone actor. Grievance-fuelled violence can occur in New Zealand as it does elsewhere. One thing I would say is that I think we're just` we are quite lucky that this person, this perpetrator was so open about his views and open about his intentions. And the security agencies and the police were able to be on hand to prevent them doing more damage. - Okay, well, we'll talk about our laws in a moment. Does it surprise you that the prime minister straight away called it terrorism? - No, no. I thought that was very transparent and open of the prime minister. The prime minister obviously had information about the perpetrator, and had done so for quite some time, knew what the person's motivations were and intentions, and knew that they were doing it for ideological purposes. So... and violence against civilians. So, it very much, and very quickly and obviously fell within the terrorism definition. - We heard from a police source, a source close to police, that this man has been described as the single biggest security threat to New Zealand. I mean, have you heard anything similar to that? - I haven't I` It's difficult to` I mean, police obviously know much more than I do, and the rest of us. It's very difficult to identify one particular threat as the greatest threat to New Zealand. - OK. - I would probably, more accurately, in my words at least, would be that this type of attack is a very, very substantial threat to New Zealand society. And` but, you know, it's also important not to overexaggerate this type of threat, and exaggerate the number of` the number of people who subscribe to these type of ideologies. - Yeah, that's a good point. The prime minister yesterday described it as 'very few.' And our terror threat level is still sitting at medium. Is that` is that how you would read it? - It` that's how I would read it, I would agree that the numbers who subscribe to that ideology are small. You know, we're not talking completely insignificant and tiny numbers, I would imagine. But in terms of the` and this is the` really the key issue, and particularly for the security agencies, in terms of the numbers from within that group of supporters of those kind of ideologies who actually go on to, and tend to go on and commit violence is very, very small in New Zealand society, I would suggest. But as I say, it's lucky that this person was so open about his intentions, because, for the security agencies, it's very difficult, because there are any number of people out there who talk about engaging in violence for ideological and other reasons. And it's very difficult to know exactly which ones are going to go on and act and carry it out. - Yeah. So police are confident that this man acted alone. So that's some cause for relief, I guess. - Absolutely, yeah, it's` it suggests there's no broader network, and there are more perpetrators who might go on and conduct other attacks, the police will know who this person was in contact with. But it doesn't` it's the nature of most advanced Western democracies, advanced economies, that the surveillance and surveillance capacity means that it's very, very difficult for small cells, or terrorist organisations, to develop, and to operate, and to carry out operations. - Well, that's good. - Almost all terrorism is conducted by lone actors. - Okay. Should we be worried about either copycat attacks or risk of reprisal? - I mean, there's always a risk of copycat attacks, or tit for tat attacks from the other side. I think` I would suggest that the risk is low, of either of those two things, but I would think, of more concern to me, at least, would be much lower level intimidation, and violence, and abuse against the Muslim community, because of what's happened. When there have been Islamist terrorist attacks overseas, there often is a period afterwards where there is a sense of revenge and intimidation against Muslims on the streets and within the community. - Just finally, Chris. Two terrorist attacks in New Zealand in a short space of time. What is that telling us? - It tells us that we're not immune from the extremist ideology, and there always is the risk of violent extremism within New Zealand, and we need to be aware of that, and we need to constantly be` (COUGHS) Excuse me. Combating the ideas that support it, but also not to become too alarmed, and to be` become too suspicious. And one thing I would suggest also is that` that I hope we don't go` that the government and businesses don't decide that because knives were the weapon that was used in the most recent attack, that we use, we engage in more security, and the banning of more objects, because terrorists generally will just change their mode of operations, and choose another weapon. So that` it's more to do with the legal framework that we need to be addressing at the moment. - Okay. Chris Wilson, thank you very much for your time this morning. - Thanks. - All right, if you've got a news tip, please get in touch. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. E whai ake nei, we dissect this week's extraordinary news with our panel. Plus, six months after their vaccinations, their immunity is plummeting. Could our border workers once again let Delta in? could need a booster shot by November as their protection against COVID wanes. It's been six months since our first border workers were fully vaccinated with the Pfizer jab. The new research shows that protection is fading, and one expert says it's a ticking time bomb. Senior reporter Conor Whitten has more. In our managed isolation and quarantine facilities, soldiers stand guard on the COVID front line ` barriers, masks, military precision. These are the weapons in the war at the border. But now our best defence could be fading and the border could soon be at risk. Is this a ticking time bomb? - Of course it is. And until we get everyone jabbed in this country, we are a ticking time bomb. - New research shows protection from the Pfizer vaccine becomes less effective as time goes on. It remains very good at preventing sickness. - The protection against disease, particularly severe disease, is holding up really, really well. - But becomes worse at stopping infection. - Where we see some decline is in its ability to prevent people getting infected and passing on the virus to others. - The risk at the border is breakthrough infections, cases in vaccinated border workers who can then pass the virus on, taking COVID from quarantine to the community. And it's becoming more likely now. - Certainly by six months, there's a clear decline. - Six months ago, our first border workers received two doses of the COVID vaccine. More than 7,000 border workers and families were fully vaccinated by the end of March. Another 16,000 in April, nearly 20,000 in May. By November, more than 43,000 border workers will have had six months since this second dose. - Our essential workers at the borders ` their immunity goes away and we don't know whether they're going to be protected against infection and transmitting infection. - Helen Petousis-Harris is the vaccinologist on the government's vaccine advisory group. - The best chance that you have in protecting against their ability to pick up the virus and transmit it is going to be in booster shots. We actually don't have anything else in our armoury. - Advocating boosters for those at the border, A third vaccination for frontline workers. - It's clear that our border workers are going to need booster shots. And luckily, we do have enough leftover supply. - And it needs to happen soon. - Certainly, it's looking like six to eight months is going to be` for people in that position, might be a good strategy. - So something we need to think about now? - We absolutely should be thinking about it and talking about it, yeah. - It still isn't known how the latest outbreak made its way from managed isolation or whether a border worker was involved. Three MIQ staff have now tested positive, but health officials won't say how long it's been since any of them got their second jab. Research is mounting that COVID vaccines are no silver bullet for this pandemic, particularly after the Delta strain. The Pfizer vaccine's effectiveness drops from 92% to 78% in just three months, according to an Oxford study in Britain. America's CDC found a bigger decline from 91% to 66% when the Pfizer vaccine is faced with Delta. Other estimates in Israel are even lower, and it's getting worse with time. - I was horrified, in that it means that we actually have to have a booster shot. - A Kiwi-made booster is in the works in Wellington, but it's at least a year away. - We're aiming that this time next year we'll be doing our first clinical trial with a Delta version of the vaccine. - The question of boosters for the general public is being debated around the world. Croatia and Austria will no longer take tourists whose vaccines are more than six months old. Booster programmes have begun in Israel, and they'll soon start in the US. - Most other developed countries have ordered hundreds of millions of booster shots. New Zealand has not ordered a single one. - But the WHO wants richer nations to wait for the world to catch up first. - When you start diverting or using your resources to come along with a booster shot when you've still got a lot of people unvaccinated, I think that becomes` It becomes hard to justify. - Even after time, two doses of the vaccine gives good protection against illness and death. - Most people who get two shots of vaccine are going to be well protected against disease. - But that may not be enough at the border where an outbreak is only ever an infection away. Conor Whitten with that report. All right, we are now joined by Tova O'Brien from Parliament. Tova. Kia ora, Simon. Joining me now, at parliament is the Minister of Defence and Associate Minister of Health for Maori Health, Peeni Henare. Tena koe, Minister, thank you for joining us. - Kia ora. - If I could just start on the horrors that unfolded in West Auckland, did the government try hard enough to deport this terrorist? - Oh, look, first and foremost, our condolences to those who were affected by this. And, of course, the Prime Minister made it clear that there will be ongoing work with the relevant ministers to make sure that we have a full understanding of what took place and what might happen next. - But I think people want to know ` I mean, understanding that there are suppression laws in place ` but I want to know, people want to know, why a violent extremist was able to mount a terror attack, injure six people when the government knew that he posed that threat? - As I mentioned, I suspect there will be ongoing work to find out exactly what transpired here. As we know, he was under surveillance. And we've just got to make sure that everything's been covered off and we've done as much as we can to keep our community safe. - We've long known that there are gaps in the legislation that we aren't able to charge people for planning or preparation of a terrorist attack. You guys have been in government for four years now. You could have passed this legislation last term. Why did you fail to do so and by extension, fail to get this guy off the streets before he did what he did yesterday? - Look, my understanding is Minister Little's doing quite a bit of reform work in this space with respect to the intelligence, amongst other things, and the hope is that that legislation will be able to keep up with time. I mean, we know that technology, for example, is changing faster than we can change the legislation. So we've got a job to do. I acknowledge that. - OK, and do you feel like that job's being done fast enough? Because, as I say, that legislation, we knew that there was that gap in the law. That legislation could have been passed last year. - Oh, look, it` I wasn't a responsible minister last June, you might want to ask the` - You're the Minister that's here fronting for the government today. - We asked the Prime Minister. We asked Andrew Little we asked the Police Commissioner. We asked the Police Minister, so you're here today. Do you think your government has acted fast enough to plug the gaps in the law? - Oh, look, as I've said, Minister Little's doing a lot of reform work in here in this space, and I'm confident that we can get those gaps that you mentioned plugged up. But of course, with respect to what happened yesterday, there are still lots of things that we don't know, and we want to make sure we get all the facts before we continue to talk about it. - OK. We've got a lot to get through. So let's move on to COVID. What are the latest case numbers? - I don't have an update for today. - You don't get those 9AM updates? - Some of them come through at 9. Sometimes they come out a little bit after. - So what are the Maori numbers? - So the Maori numbers this morning are almost 230,000 have received their first dose and not quite 120,000 the full two doses. - Okay, we'll come back to Maori vaccination rates shortly. But on Thursday, you were at that press conference where you neglected to tell us the COVID case had escaped out of MIQ into the community. This was a Delta case on the loose and South Auckland, where there's a large Maori and Pacific community who are more vulnerable to COVID-19. Did the government` Are you comfortable with whether the government communicated that risk soon enough? - I am comfortable with that. Both the Deputy Prime Minister and the Prime Minister made it clear that when that information came through, we didn't quite have the full picture. We obviously now, with a bit of investigation, have discovered exactly what took place. And ultimately, when we look towards our MIQ system and our response to COVID, we have a high trust model with our public and we need all of us to play our part. And sadly, this particular individual didn't. - Did you know before that 1 o'clock press conference about this person, absconder? - I didn't know. So the Prime Minister knew, the COVID Response Minister knew, but you the local MP for Tamaki Makaurau and the Associate Minister of Health, you didn't know. Why not? - No, I didn't know. And to be fair, my entire focus in the build up to that particular 1pm stand up was the Whanau Ora announcement. We've worked hard to get to $23 million for Whanau Ora. And my focus was on that. - Your focus has also got to be on your constituents in Tamaki Makaurau and keeping them safe. - Correct, and you know, I'm constantly in touch with our community providers, Maori health providers, marae across Tamaki Makaurau, so we're doing the best we can in Tamaki Makaurau. Sad that this person flouted the rules. - You told us on this show last year that communications with Maori people could be stronger. This was after the last outbreak. You said that you heard the criticism. You weren't up there standing next to the Prime Minister at the podium once, Minister, once this outbreak, you've stood next to Jacinda Ardern. And have you tried harder to be there to be able to communicate to Maori by Maori? - Oh, look, yes, there there's a 1pm focus at the podium with the Prime Minister. I continue to be part of a team with the Prime Minister, and they know that. But I've also, you know, managed to communicate through all the other channels and mediums` - For sure, and sorry to interrupt, but you did recognise that there was criticism there and that perhaps that was a good way of communicating, because that is how the government is communicating en masse, isn't it? So have you tried harder to be up there? - Oh, look, like I said, I'm part of a team of ministers with restricted access to hear` to be able to front, and the Prime Minister knows that. - As we saw in Conor Whitten's report, we now know that the protections from Delta, they wane dramatically after 6 months, and experts are calling for all border workers to receive a booster shot. Can you can you guarantee that they will by the end of the year? - Look, the first thing I'll say is Minister Hipkins and the Prime Minister are leading the securing of our vaccine supply. And I think that's really important. We continue to look at the research around the booster shots and the requirements for it. For my part, of course, there are, of course, the frontline workers that you talk to ` or you talk about, sorry ` but of course, I've got to focus on our Maori community, and we'll be making sure we observe this to be able to secure it for an equitable outcome for Maori. - OK, and more on that again soon as well, but 46000 border workers by November will be left vulnerable without the adequate protections to Delta. The government would be putting them at risk if they didn't give them that booster shot. So can you guarantee that all of those frontline workers will get a booster shot by the end of the year? - I'm not here to guarantee that. - OK, what about boosters for the wider community? - Oh, look, that's something we'll continue to look to. The Prime Minister said at the beginning of the year this was the year of the vaccine. And so we're still in our roll out, we made it clear we had to ramp up for the second half of the year for the rollout. Then we'll continue to look towards what the science and the evidence is about the booster shots and how we might secure them. - 19% of eligible Maori have been vaccinated versus 30% of eligible pakeha. So do you push with your cabinet colleagues to have Maori prioritised as part of the vaccine rollout? - Yes, I did. - And did that fall on deaf ears with the Prime Minister? - No, not at all. In fact, from the start, from February, when we had these discussions, it was quite clear across all of my colleagues. And if one looks towards all the cabinet papers and the papers that decided upon our phased rollout, you will see a strong message for equity and the need to focus on Maori. - Then I'm baffled as to why that didn't happen, Minister. - Oh look, we made it quite clear too that we had to get the right infrastructure in place. The game COVID has changed since February. The cool store requirements and all of those were logistics that were a challenge at the start. We've had Marae vaccination, pop-up vaccination clinics. - Totally respect all of that, which is brilliant. But why weren't Maori prioritised as part of the vaccine rollout? Why weren't Maori in one of those initial allocation bands? - They were. So kaumatua, kuia, pre-existing health conditions and South Auckland were part of the` - With everybody else, but the comorbidities for Maori are greater with COVID-19. So why weren't younger Maori prioritised, perhaps with older Pakeha people in that first band? - Comorbidities didn't have an age restriction on that. - So at phase two, Maori with pre-existing health conditions could come forward to receive the vaccine. OK, on Thursday, you announced, as you mentioned, that funding for Whanau Ora to incentivise Maori to get vaccinated. Why haven't you done this sooner now? - Look, we made it clear in last year's budget that there was $130 million of new money for Whanau Ora. They've been able to pivot some of that with the most recent outbreak of Delta. Of course, now we look towards how we continue to plug gaps. Tamaki Makaurau was the focus, and that's the $23 million we announced. - You weren't particularly interested in that idea, though, back in March when Te Puni Kokiri recommended it to you, though. So why only now? - Uh, recommended...? - That you incentivise Maori to get vaccinated. - Oh, we did, with the $39 million plan that we rolled out at the beginning of March about how we message, how we communicate to our people. - That's not specifically around incentivisation, though, is it? Incentivising Maori to get out and get to the vaccinations? - No, that was it was a part of it, too. In fact, I can tell you that in Te-Whanau-a-Apanui they clever intel to provide crayfish, to bring people out to get vaccinated, and it's worked. They're the highest in the country. - We're still waiting to hear how you're going to address vaccine supply. Australia managed to secure 4 million doses from the United Kingdom. Why has the government failed to do that to date? - Oh no, look, we made it clear we had a schedule. We're working with Pfizer, and Minister Hipkins has been quite clear that we've got some challenges and we're working through our international partners to secure more supply. But we know, too, that if we look towards October, there will be large supply coming into the country as well. We've got to, one, get it out, and two, manage it so it doesn't go to waste. - But we've been expecting an announcement on that supply fix all week and it keeps getting kicked to touch. So what's the what's the hold-up here? - Oh, look, there's a number of moving parts there. I know that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs are involved. - Australia doesn't seem to be having the same struggle. - ...the Ministry of Health. Ah, well, We're not Australia and go the All Blacks. But I want to be quite clear that we're working hard on securing that supply. Minister Hipkins and the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister are all over it. - Given that you've not been satisfied that the government's done all it could to support whanau through the vaccine rollout, which is something you've told Newsroom in the past, can you at least promise that if we do run out of vaccines or if we do run short, any Maori person who wants a vaccine will not be turned down, they'll at least be prioritised if the supplies start dwindling? - That will be my push, and that's what we need to do to make sure we get equity here. It's been my push from the start, and if supply continues to be a challenge into the future, that will continue to be the push of myself, Maori ministers and the Maori caucus. - If we can take off that potae now, and put your Defence minister hat on, how many people were left in Afghanistan that weren't able to be rescued, that the Defence Force couldn't rescue? - So we know that there are still a large number. I can't confirm the number of the top of my head right now. For my part, as the Minister of Defence, I know that a large number of the list that we had originally submitted are still there, but we are in communication with them, as well as our international partners to see how we can continue to support an evacuation. - There are at least 350 New Zealanders and their families still in Afghanistan. Not all of them will want to be evacuated. The prime minister's pledged a continuation of the evacuation. She said it would look different, it would be longer, it would be difficult. But what will those future evacuations look like, like and when will they happen? - Well, look, the hope is ultimately we can get some commercial flights in and out of Afghanistan in the near future. But of course, at the moment, that's not possible with the state of the airport there. So we continue to work with our partners to look at what, you know, what kind of approach they're taking with respect to the military being able to get into the airport and into Afghanistan. But ultimately, we're going to need the cooperation and the support of our international partners to make sure we can get these people out. And remember, at the start, the list was only this big, and of course, now we see the list is that big, which is why, sadly, we didn't get everyone out. - And what's the timeframe for that, those commercial flights into Afghanistan? - I don't have a timeframe for that, but I know that myself, my colleagues and Cabinet are talking about and continuing to look at the 'what next?' here. I made it clear in my Ministerial statement in the House, for our part, with respect to the evacuation operation, our part is finished. I suppose I want to know from you as Defence Minister that you won't rest until everyone who's left behind in Afghanistan is in New Zealand and safe. - I can confirm that, and the Prime Minister pledges that we'll continue to do what we can do. - You will get everyone out of Afghanistan who wants to come here, who's either a New Zealander or who worked with the New Zealand forces or New Zealand departments in Afghanistan. You'll get them home? - We'll try our best. - OK, last time that you were on our show, a friend of mine got in touch and said, 'That guy. He should be the Prime Minister.' Is that a job that you would one day like to do? - Looking at how the challenges have confronted our great Prime Minister now, no thank you. - You don't want that job. You still want the Health Minister job, though? - Oh, look, I'm enjoying my role in health. And I think Minister Little's awesome for the reform work. There's going to be a changing health landscape in the coming future, and I don't want to crystal ball gaze at the moment, but I'm enjoying my role. - But you would still perhaps consider that Minister of Health role if Andrew Little moves on? - Oh, I think Andrew's still got some time left in him, and I'm enjoying my role. I think there's lots to do in the Maori health space, and I've got some mountains to climb there. - Minister Peeni Henare. Kia ora, thank you very much for your time this morning. Back to you Simon. Kia ora, Tova. Thank you very much. Up next, our political panel, Khylee Quince and Ben Thomas. Plus, a top scientists calls them virus factories. How our school buildings are geared to spread Delta. I'm joined now by our panel ` AUT Dean of Law, Khylee Quince, and former National staffer, now in PR, Ben Thomas. Tena korua, thank you very much for your time, guys. Look, let's talk about the terrible events at Lynn Mall. A man on a terrorist watch list, under 24/7 surveillance, and stabbed six people in a supermarket. Ben, have our agencies failed to keep New Zealand safe? - I think you'd have to say this is a vindication of our security, intelligence and law enforcement. You know, not to be flippant, but I think a 60 second response time is about as well as anyone could expect in the modern world. I mean, I you know, I think in a time before Amazon, or, you know, One-Click purchasing, to sort of say, we should have been on the scenes faster than 60 seconds is crazy. I think this is actually` this is the system working. You know, we can't arrest people for thought crimes, you know, because of gaps in the terror legislation. We can't yet take action for planning a terrorist attack, which, you know, a terrible gap in what was deeply flawed and rushed legislation at the time. And for that reason, I don't think you can really blame the current government. You know, who are actually trying to patch up that hole in the law, but they're doing it the proper way, through the proper process, not rushing it through under urgency, getting it right. Not fast enough to take this guy off the streets. But I think doing everything they need to. - From a legal perspective, Khylee Quince, I mean, have successive governments been letting us down in this area? - To some extent, I mean, the issues with the Terrorism Suppression Act overreach and difficulties have been well known, obviously, since the Tuhoe Raids of 2007. We might remember that Judith Collins was minister of justice in 2013 when the current holes were pointed out, and she took it off the law commissions law reform agenda at that time. So, yes, these problems have been known for some time, but of course, parliaments have to deal with so many different aspects of law reform. And this is a particularly difficult one, because other than the hard end, once a terror attack has occurred, or when, you know, weapons have been used, it's an extremely difficult balance to achieve. The requirements of principled, justified and proportionate responses to what Ben has rightly called perhaps just one step on from thought crime. We want legislative precision, and we also need high levels of trust and confidence in law enforcement and security agencies. And so this has been on in select committee for some months now, and has been subject to much debate and criticism by Maori Party, the Greens, David Seymour, but also community groups, including the Islamic Women's Council, you know, groups that are likely to be at the sticky end of overreach of legislation. So this is this is a difficult one, no doubt about it. - Okay, but we see, like today, Judith Collins comes out and says, you know, 'We need to be acting on this urgently.' I mean, that's` it all feels like cold comfort for the people who have been involved in this attack. And secondly, you know, for the wider public, sitting back and saying, how is this possible when you have somebody that's on a terrorist watch list and is under surveillance? And we've known about him for five years, that this can be allowed to happen? Should we have confidence in our politicians to actually protect us? - Well, even if we closed that` so, to the extent that it's possible now, I think Ben was correct that, you know, we've talked about transparency and accountability. To some extent, we need` it's difficult to assess the latter without knowing the former, the information. The prime minister and police commissioner, I think, did a good job yesterday of saying, 'Wait till you see', you know, 'Wait till we see the timeline', and the limitations that those agencies were dealing with. And given what I would know about those limitations, I think they've done a good job. - What do you say to that, Ben? I mean, you say that the agencies have done very well in terms of, you know, 60 seconds is such a short period of time. But from a` if you stand back, from a public point of view, it feels like a failure. Does it not? In the broad sense. - From the reporting that, you know, Sam Hurley has done for NZME, you know, it seems as if the Crown has done everything it can under the law as it exists, to try and get this guy` to have tried to get this guy off the street, before the kind of, you know, metaphorical ticking time bomb went off. You know, if you look at what this guy did, you know, it's very` it's hard, you know, short of actually locking him in a cell. You know, you can't prevent somebody going into the knife aisle of a supermarket. You know, I think Chris Wilson said earlier, you know, anything can be turned in` you know, it's impossible to keep every member of a society safe from somebody who is intent on hurting them at any point. And, you know, I mean, if what` if we weren't in a lockdown? He could have driven a car into a crowd. You know, I think you have to recognise the limits of reality. The government was doing everything it could, as we understand it, within the existing legal framework, while they've been working on that legal framework after they found out that it wasn't fit for purpose. From a judge's decision. And, you know, I don't think that we can be too` you know, at this stage, it certainly doesn't seem as if we can be too harsh on the authorities here. - Okay. I mean, I have a sense that, you know, or people see this and go, okay, does this mean that it's going to spark either reprisals or copycats? But the Muslim community has already condemned this attack, set up a Givealittle page, and voiced its condemnation, Khylee. Are we as a community, you know, probably ready to be more mature, to be able to deal with something like this now since 2019? - Well, I don't know that we can go that far, because as you say, it's cold comfort for people that are actually harmed, and also for those communities that are likely to suffer, you know, reprisals in terms of public attitude towards them. And I mean, you know, I don't know that there is much that can be done about that. Are we more mature? I don't know. I hope so. - Ben, how do you feel about that? Do you have a sense of concern about reprisals or copycat? - No, look, I don't. You know, these were concerns that were raised after the Christchurch attacks as well. They didn't come to pass. If you` you know, from what we know about this person, this was a person who was, you know, so hellbent on executing some kind of attack, that they were literally, you know, after they had been released from a court` you know, from a court hearing, went to buy a knife, and then were arrested again. And after that would just hang out in the knife aisle of a supermarket. That's a kind of single-minded dedication to` you know, and the same sort of thing happened with the Christchurch attack. That's not you know, that's extreme radicalisation. And the number of people who are actually willing to, you know, be gunned down in public or spend their lives in prison, you know, for the sake of, you know, something that has no rational basis. You know, that is a very small number of people. Like the prime minister was talking about, like Chris Wilson was talking about, you know, possibly a more widespread concern, as you know, there will be, you know, an increase in tensions amongst some people as a result of this. You know, apparently this happened after Christchurch. And, you know, that would be a very unfortunate outcome, you know, because` - All right, I think we just lost Ben there, and it's time to wrap up. - Single-minded dedication. - Ben, we're just losing you there. And we've also just lost time as well. Thank you very much for your time. Ben Thomas and Khylee Quince on the panel this morning. E whai ake nei, titchy vibes in parliament this week, but first, experts warn Covid could spread through schools, buses, offices, and MIQs through the ventilation systems. A special report from Anna Bracewell-Worrall. Hoki mai ano, welcome back. Experts warn COVID could be poised to spread through schools, buses, offices and even our MIQs, if ventilation systems aren't brought up to scratch urgently. Anna Bracewell-Worrall There are no traffic jams, but bus drivers with a essential workers on board have other concerns. - How will we be safe? Is there an answer? No. - They say nothing is being done to combat the spread of COVID-19 through the air. And most of the time, there are no windows on the buses. More than a year ago, we had the first warnings that airborne transmission was happening. - Still some question about aerosol, assault, but likely some degree of aerosol. - We used to think COVID mostly spread through droplets on surfaces picked up by touch, hence this advice ` - Wash your hands. Wash your hands. Wash your hands. - Now, aerosols are considered the dominant form of transmission. Smoke and vapour are visible aerosols. But you exhale invisible aerosols with every breath. They linger longer than droplets and can be recirculated through air conditioning. COVID clings to them. - When you are in an enclosed or poorly ventilated space, the virus can spread more easily. - New research last week found airborne transmission of pathogens has been vastly underappreciated, and not just of COVID, of viruses, including the common cold too. It found some of our attempts to control droplets have been making it worse. Plexiglas barriers can trap aerosols and actually increase transmission of COVID. - These little tiny particles can hang around for even hours if there isn't proper ventilation. - So, good ventilation is critical, which is bad news for New Zealand. Are typical ventilation systems kind of up to COVID with Delta? - No, they're not. Ventilation systems, air conditioning systems are designed for comfort and for people well-being, but they're not designed to cope with pandemics and infectious diseases. - Some environments are worse than others. At some point, our tamariki will go back to crowded classrooms. - We know that schools are actually a virus factory. So this is one of the areas that we also need to have as good a ventilation as possible to make sure that we aren't adding transmission events, or creating these hotspots and outbreaks. - A lot of schools have concentrated in the past on heating systems and really keeping the school closed up so that we don't lose the heat. and that is counter to what we need to do to ventilate the space. - The Ministry of Education says schools meet ventilation requirements as set out by the building code, and it's not considering improving ventilation in light of COVID-19. But the building code is not designed to control COVID-19, and there would be other benefits to improving air flow, such as dampening the spread of RSV. - So it's going to have long lasting effects that will keep yourself safe well beyond COVID-19. - Driver's concerns about their busses are valid too, an enclosed vehicle transporting air crew is how the outbreak started in Australia before spreading to New Zealand. - The airport limo driver, authorities believe, is patient zero. From one limousine to lockdown. - They're not quite limos, but public buses carry the same risks. - What they could do is have a portable air recirculator added to the bus, if they can't open the windows. Of course, windows would be an easy first choice there. And of course, we want our drivers to have the best protection. So that would mean N95 masks. -Experts are also concerned about ventilation in MIQ, where last month at Jetpark the virus spread across the hallway. - If you were to purpose-build an isolation facility, it wouldn't look anything like a current hotel. They are pretty makeshift for a containment facility. - It's important that we do increase the amount of ventilation in these corridors, in these tighter rooms like lifts and stairwells and other compact areas, because those are going to be the highest risk. If Delta is left to spread through inadequate ventilation in our schools, offices and buses, we could find ourselves back in lockdown. - It is a real risk. We need to have cleaner environment. If we go back early and people are infected, the systems at the moment are very likely to spread that quite well. - Anna Bracewell-Worrall reporting there. Stay with us. We're back after the break. Welcome back for something a little lighter. In a socially-distanced week in parliament, opposition leader Judith Collins and others let their tempers publicly fray. After Judith Collins finally got her wish, forcing parliament to sit in lockdown, she lit the house up. - This sanctimonious, smug attitude. Because we're not front of the queue, we can barely see the queue. - She was still fired up after now viral morning media clash. - Are you gonna ask me the question or are you gonna answer it as well? - It was a yes or no question. It was just yes or no a question. - There's nothing like a good workout first thing in the morning. - Have you been directly in touch with them? - My husband's Pasifika, I talk to him every day. - Judith Collins insisting she and MPs her need to be at parliament because she's not happy with the performance of the press pack. - Don't attack me for asking the questions that you and the rest of the media should be asking the Prime Minister. - They have had to come here because of the selfishness of the opposition in this parliament. - Somebody's a bit tetchy today. A little bit touchy. - Mr. Speaker, it's certainly clear there's some tetchiness in the debating chamber today. I'm not sure the Minister of Finance is the one that's most exhibiting that at this point. - We've seen the sort of level of some of the questions that are being used in the press conferences, things like, 'And how are you feeling today?' - How are you feeling? - I'm feeling great. Thank you. - Well, in the house, there. I'm joined now by our panel again. AUT Dean of Law, Khylee Quince, and former National staffer now in PR, Ben Thomas. Ben, first to you. A little bit tetchy in parliament there. What do you think of Judith Collins performance this week? - She was really on a bit of a hiding to nothing, I mean, constitutionally, she's completely correct. Parliament should have been convening in some form to hold the government to account. - What it ended up looking like was sort of rattling around a haunted house. You know, for instance, that speech where she talked about the accent, and sort of talked about being tetchy, that's the sort of thing that actually wouldn't be out of place in a raucous, bustling parliamentary general debate speech. But when you do it stripped of context, with no background noise, with no one cheering whistle and laughing, with no one booing, it sounds a little bit crazy. So the optics were just totally off for the opposition this week. - Let's talk about the Associate Minister for Health's interview there, Khylee. He keeps talking about equity for Maori in terms of the vaccine rollout. Is he delivering? - I mean, he's certainly playing catch up, he's saying the right things now. I think Tova did a good job at pressing him on, you know, gaps that we've known about for some time. Dr Rawiri Jansen, Dr David Tipene-Leach on behalf of a whole number of Maori health professionals, forewarned that this this crisis really would happen, in 2020, as soon as the pandemic really took hold. And we've seen those warnings come to bare, you know, the lag in vax rates, the very fast transmission from 1 to 40 Maori cases in the latest outbreak within two or three days. So he's speaking` I think he's doing well now. He's saying the right things now, and he's clearly got on board with the message that he was given quite some time ago, that we needed a kaupapa Maori approach and engaging ` not only in engaging difficult to reach communities ` but also in understanding And he knows well that not only talking the language of equity, but talk in the language of Te Tiriti, you know, partnership and tino rangatiratanga. Hapu and iwi Maori know our people best. They have the best means and form of engagement, both in terms of being culturally responsive and appropriate, but also in terms of addressing what Dr Jansen pointed out are the accessibility issues of a jab regime that is was run online for people who know what their work schedule is going to be in six weeks time for a second jab. So having walk-up responses, having responses that are hosted on Marae and in communities and places that people are comfortable with. - OK. - You know, they're playing catch up. - All right. All right. But it's going to be harder to play catch up, isn't it, if we don't have the right number of vaccines? The government this week has been promising to get more vaccines all week. It still seems to be proving difficult, Ben, doesn't it? Is this a lack of planning? - Look, we can't tell without, you know, having been on the inside of those negotiations since the beginning of the year. It doesn't seem plausible that, you know, that we are simply getting as many vaccines from Pfizer as fast as we can. That just doesn't seem to stack up with the rest of the world's experience, or at least other rich countries. You know, this delay has, you know, I think as Khylee said, you know, we're doing quite well now in terms of the vaccine rollout. You know, imagine how well we would be placed if we had actually been going at this cracking pace since much earlier in the year. And that's created a lot of the problems for us. That's what left us vulnerable to a Delta outbreak, that's what leaves Maori communities vulnerable. And look, we don't know the reasons for it. All we know is that it has happened and that we really need to secure as many vaccines as possible now. - And Khylee, just quickly, are you reassured by Peeni Henare, that, you know, he's putting his hand up for those extra shots that are going to come in and that Maori are going to be prioritised when we do get the extra vaccines? - I think we have to be optimistic about that, and trust that he has our best interests at heart. Absolutely. - All right. That's all we've got time for, for our panel. Thank you so much, Ben Thomas and Khylee Quince. And that is all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching, nga mihi nui. Kia haumaru, kia pai ti ra. Stay safe and we'll see you again next weekend. Captions by Phoebe Upton and John Gibbs Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021