- E haere ake nei, today on Newshub Nation ` violent extremists living in our communities. We have the numbers. Can Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis assure us we're safe? An employer teetering ` will her business make it through lockdown? And digital iv of Finn Hogan with who's up and who's down in politics online. ('NEWSHUB NATION' THEME MUSIC) www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 Tena tatou katoa, I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Te Rohe ` it's the te reo name for Newshub Nation, as we look forward to Te Wiki o te Reo Maori ` Maori Language Week. Koinga pitopito korero e te whare paremata ` in political news this week. There are 879 cases of COVID in the community, with 11 added on Friday. Of those, 31 are in hospital, five in ICU and 29 are not yet linked to the outbreak. A woman who visited Middlemore Hospital on Thursday has tested positive for COVID-19. She was tested while visiting the hospital for a non-COVID related issue, but left before receiving the result. She is now in managed isolation. And cyber-attackers have taken down multiple New Zealand websites in distributed denial of service attacks this week. Those hit include Kiwibank, New Zealand Post and the police. ANZ had services disrupted for three days. We begin this programme with revelations of the number of violent extremists being monitored by corrections. These figures were prepared by corrections this year for the second anniversary of the Christchurch terrorist attack and released to Newshub Nation under the Official Information Act. As of February, there are 216 violent extremists under corrections' care. 81 of those in prison, but the majority, 135 were in the community. So how well-monitored are these violent extremists living alongside us? Our next interview puts that question to the man responsible, Corrections Minister Kelvin Davis. And to usher into Wiki o te Reo Maori ` Maori Language Week, our colleague Oriini Kaipara conducted his interview largely in te reo Maori. - (SPEAKS TE REO) Our first question, our first topic is about violent extremists and we've received e na wai ei information that 135 violent extremists living in the community as of February here in Aotearoa. How can you reassure the public that they're not a threat in the same way that the New Lynn terrorist is, or was? - Yeah, so the New Lynn terrorist was an extremist. The others have views that pretty` basically the community wouldn't agree with. But there are agencies that continue to monitor their actions and to make sure... - But, Minister, they are described by corrections. Corrections describe these people as 'violent extremists'. - Yeah and as I'm saying that the agencies such as corrections and the police do monitor them. So those who are the most extreme, such as the New Lynn terrorist, he had 24-7 police surveillance. Others have GPS bracelets and various ways to be to be monitored. So it depends on the` on the` the different levels and the different extremes of their behaviour. We make sure that we have a strategy, an individualised plan for each person based on their needs. And so each one will be different, but those most extreme ` such as the New Lynn terrorist ` he had 24-7 monitoring. - How extreme is too extreme, though, Minister? - Well, again, we leave it up to the agencies to continue to monitor. Now, the New Lynn terrorist, he obviously had... he just decided that he was going to do that, and, despite having 24-7 monitoring, it still took about a minute for the police who were monitoring him to get there to stop him. But not everybody is that extreme, and I can't go into the depths of, you know, the levels of their extremism, other than to say that agencies continue to monitor and watch them, and they have individualised plans for each person and their particular needs. - The number of violent extremists under corrections' care has grown since August 2019, and that's by 11%. 22 extra people on the list, Minister. What extra skills and numbers have you added to monitor them safely? - Now, if people have to be in the community, i.e. their sentences are finished or their` the judge has said that they can be in the community, then corrections does what it has to do to monitor their behaviour, to watch them. Like I say, they might have bracelets on, they might have other methods of monitoring their behaviour and their whereabouts, but, you know, this` such is unfortunately, society these days, that we have people whose views we severely disagree with out there in the community. But the authorities are doing the best job they can to monitor them and try and keep all New Zealanders safe from them and their ideologies - The New Zealand Muslim Association says it's baffled why the terrorist was housed at the Glen Eden mosque with its lack of resource and expertise. Would you put him there again if you could go back in time? - Well, the thing is, corrections went and had conversations with the facilitator, or the manager of that mosque, and that person agreed that it was OK to have him there. And, like I say, we had police monitoring him 24-7. So the authorities did everything they could to make sure that he was in a place that he was reasonably comfortable with and that he could be monitored. There was a lot of effort put into him. Don't for a second believe that he was put there and just left and forgotten. That is totally not the case. He's very difficult to engage in. - Would you have put him there, though, Minister? Well, I would trust the authorities whose job it is to put him in the correct place. I mean, there aren't many options. - But the buck does stop with you. You are the Minister of Corrections. The buck stops with you. (SPEAKS TE REO) - (SPEAKS TE REO) - ORIINI: - ORIINI: - Kia ora. Kia ora. - Oriini Kaipara talking to Kelvin Davis there. If you've got a news tip, get in touch. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. Or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. E whai ake ne the finance minister talks a lot about business owners doing it tough ` we'll meet one teetering on the brink. Plus, digital editor Finn Hogan with who's up, who's down in politics online. Hoki mai ano, welcome back. Well, not all our MPs are back at parliament, but does that stop them politicking 24-7 online? No, it does not. I caught up with digital editor Finn Hogan and asked, 'Who's up and who's down on social media?' - Good morning, Simon. Well, of course, we have to start with David Seymour, who has been roundly roasted this week, at least by those on the left, for publicly posting a vaccine code that was meant to ensure vaccine equity for Maori. But of course, remember we're in Facebook-land, where clicks and conflict go hand-in-hand, and so it hasn't really hurt his metrics in terms of overall audience very much. In fact, he's outstripping pretty much every other politician, except the Prime Minister. So it's worked well for him, at least in that sense. - So no such thing as bad publicity on Facebook? - Yeah. Well, I mean, there's definitely an element of that. But I do think where this could hurt him is with those more moderate nats, that he's sort of seeking to woo to his camp. Like we saw Shane Reti this week call his actions, 'disgraceful', and I do think there will be some in that camp that are put off by this more individualistic sort of libertarian streak that he's showing here. But as ever, the proof is going to be in the polling, so we'll have to wait and see. - All right. Let's talk about National. How are they going? - Yeah, National's interesting. They're actually doing very well when we compare their main party page to the Labour main party page. And this is a massive role reversal from the original lockdown, which was a massive boom to the government and National were getting destroyed. Now it's the other way around. National's actually beating Labour pretty much across the board in every metric, and that's the first time I've seen this happen since Labour took power. Now, of course, you have to take all social media numbers with a real big pinch of salt. But I do think this does reflect some growing dissatisfaction with Labour, right? Like, we've got a combination of things happening here. There's the lockdown fatigue, then there's National relentlessly needling them over the vaccine rollout. And it does mean that overall, the shine is coming off of us having the 'best COVID response in the world.' And I think we're seeing that reflected in these numbers. - What's driving National's success outside of discontent with the government? - I think it's interesting. On Facebook, it's videos like this. And I think if you want to know why National was so insistent that the House sat last week and this week, I think this is a big part of it. I think when you compare a Zoom select committee meeting to a fiery speech in the House, the Zoom committee meeting looks even more boring, if that's possible. In the House, you've got the beautiful debating chamber behind you to lend gravity, no one's interrupting you. And I think National knows that. They know the value of being able to post these clips, so they're going to be very pleased that they've got this limitless resource of content. Well, at least, the three-times-a-week when the House sits. - Are we seeing the same bump in individual National MPs as in the party? - We actually are. If we look at the top-10 performing MPs in terms of the Facebook numbers, over half of them are National MPs. And it's being driven by the usual suspects like Chris Bishop, who is posting six times a day on average. And that might seem excessive. And you might say, 'Well, why? What does that matter?' But it's important to remember this is the most efficient and effective way to get your ideas in front of as many Kiwis as possible ` particularly when lockdown is on. Why would you send out a press release and try and hope for a 20-second sound bite on the 6pm news, when you can potentially reach the entire country almost instantaneously through social media by potentially going viral? - Yeah, I saw New Zealand First pop up there briefly when we flashed back to 2020, but we haven't heard from them in a while. - Yes, remember when New Zealand First made a big speech about coming back, and then just didn't come back? (CHUCKLES) And, look, like, I know, I know, I know. Winston Peters is never gonna be an extremely online person, and social media is not a big part of New Zealand First's strategy. But I do think it's important to note that you` if you wanna have a comeback, you need to get your ideas in front of people, and social media is one of the most effective ways of doing that. And if you're ever going to strike yourself or show yourself as a credible alternative to the government, now is the time to do it. As they say, never let a good crisis go to waste, and I think that might be what's happening here. - OK, and an honourable mention to finish. - As always. Well, with Te Wiki o te Reo Maori coming upon us, Simon, I thought it was quite fitting that Te Pati Maori. If we actually compare their main page to the ACT party page, they have been doing very, very well on Facebook. Using quite the clever combination of content and their own Maori On Lock hashtag, which will surely bring a great big menemene ` a smile to Rawiri Waititi's face. And, the last thing I would say, which I did find quite interesting, is the English name for Rawiri is David, which I think is a perfect little piece of irony that I think Rawiri Seymour and David Waititi will both very much enjoy. - Nga mihi nui, digital editor Finn Hogan. - Nga mihi. - Finn Hogan there. There's more money on the way for struggling businesses. Finance Minister Grant Robertson is extending the COVID resurgence payment and relaxing the criteria. But will it be enough to save businesses teetering on the brink of closing? Althea Jacks is one of those. For five years, she and her husband have run the Rib House restaurant in South Auckland. They're still paying off the debt from last year's lockdown, and now she's not sure how long she can survive this one. She joins me now. Tena koe, Althea. Thanks for your time this morning. Can we start with what your business looked like pre-COVID? - So we were quite a thriving business pre-COVID. Basically, it would be you had to book to get in. You couldn't just walk in. We were always fully booked on most occasions. So` But business was really doing well pre-COVID. You know, we have the numbers. It was a new product that came out on to the market. So we really had taken the market by storm in the way we had cooked our ribs. So bookings were essential. If you didn't get a booking, you couldn't come in. So we were doing really good. - Right, so how big was the business? How many people could you seat and how many staff did you employ? - Yeah. When we first initially started, we could seat` it was quite small when we started. We started at 85 seating and we couldn't keep up with that ` we only had about seven staff at the time. And we decided we'd have to go for the bigger premises because a lot of people were getting upset ` they couldn't get in on time or couldn't get bookings. So we moved to a bigger venue, a much bigger venue, that now sits 220 people. - Right. So you're painting a picture of a thriving business. You've been going for four years, then. And then the first lockdown hit. How did` How did you get through the first lockdown? Cos you're still going. - Yep, we are. So, really not` I think everybody wasn't aware of what to expect on that lockdown. You know, it was new for everybody. So we just took it as it came. Coming out of it, we had the community` Actually, I tell you what, if it wasn't for the community, I don't think we'd be here today. They all came together. We had the support, tremendous support, week after week, even though we had the limited numbers we had to do` I think it was 100 at the time we could allow into the building, and we basically had the 100 on the head every week for the last` I think it was about five, six weeks. We had bands that had come in and offered their services free, live music. So that kept us afloat and really did well, and brought in new customers that didn't know much about us. - OK. - That kept us going. - But you also had to make some personal sacrifices, didn't you? I mean, did you have to sell your house earlier this year? - We did, Simon. The debt that we incurred from the lockdowns last year were quite a lot. The rents, bills, wages, stock, just the upkeep of the business being a big venue that we had. So we had to make the call that financially we were just not... We were nowhere. We wouldn't make it without having to sell the house. - So where are you now in terms of` I mean, you had to sell your house, you had to go move somewhere else. Did you have to move in with siblings or relatives? - Yeah, with my kids. (CHUCKLES) - You moved in with your kids? - Yeah. - OK, and have you managed to pay off the debt from the first lockdown? - I am` Believe it or not, we were just` Before this lockdown, we were just getting to the point where we were almost there. We were almost there. You know, not much left to go. Still had the debt lingering, but we would there. We saw` We saw hope. We saw a future. There was a possibility because then we had more staff. We've got more staff. So things were looking pretty good for us in trying to get to the end of the debt. And, yeah. - And, so... OK, so this delta hits and you're closed down again. Can you tell me, I mean, you've been through it once, but now how is this lockdown treating you personally? - Well... (CHUCKLES) So we applied, if I can say, I applied for a` You know, the government had mentioned that the wage subsidy and the resurgence, everything was available. As soon as that happened, I went online, applied the 23rd of August. And I kept, you know, I let it go for the first week because I know that they normally are quite busy. So I rang once and they said to me, 'Look, it's in the pipeline, we'll get to it as soon as we can.' And I thought, 'OK, that's, you know, fair enough. Everybody's applying.' Second week come up, I thought, no, well, by now` Last lockdown, it was so quick. Everything happened so quickly. So I thought, 'Well, you know, something must be wrong.' I rang up saying, 'Is there something wrong with the application? 'Have we done something wrong? Please let me know.' 'Oh, no, no. It's still in the pipeline. Nobody's picked it up.' And this went on for weeks. - So we're like four weeks into this, almost, now. Have you got any money from the government as yet? Have you got wage subsidy? Have you got the resurgence payment? - I haven't received the resurgences yet, but believe it or not, last night at six o'clock, the money had come through from the wage subsidy. - How` Well, if it's taken that long, how have you been supporting your staff? I believe you've got 16 of them. How have you been supporting them? - Well, I had to borrow money. You know, it got to the point where, I hate to say this, but I had... I lost my self-esteem. I lost who I was. I felt very suicidal... because I felt guilty that I couldn't give my staff what they deserved. And I felt guilty as an owner of a business, where you're supposed to be able to take care of your staff. So I borrowed some money from my daughter and, um... just so that I could put some money into the account so that they got something to hold on to until we were getting this matter sorted. I had one staff, in particular, just had a baby, just bought a house, struggling. It devastated me. I felt useless. I felt worthless. I actually had to go` I rung and I told them, you know, 'This is it. I can't do this any more.' And next minute I knew, I had the police on to my door, and mental health, and... I'm on medication, I can't sleep, I can't eat, I'm... Thi has really ruined who I am and my family's suffering with this now. - Are you getting the support you need now? - Medically, I am. I've had quite a lot of help from Christopher Luxon, who's been, really, a great support to me. They have come back and apologised ` the ministry. - Mmm-hmmm. - But it was just a, 'We've had the Restaurant Association 'and we've had other people talk to us and we're sorry about this.' That was it. - But, just, I mean, OK, so the money is starting to come through now. But what about your mental health and your wellbeing support? Are you getting that? - I'm getting the most amazing support. - OK. - I can't fault that. I can't fault that. - But what do you need now? I mean, because we are looking at a revision of Level 4, hopefully we might go to Level 3 and then Level 2. But what does that actually mean for a big business like yours? You can't` You can only seat 50 people. - 50 people. Yep. I don't know. My husband and I` To be honest, Simon, we're thinking, um... If we` With 50, we can't cope. There's no way that we can pull through the expenses with the, you know, with the type of expense of the building we have is massive. Our rent's quite high. Having 50 people and all the staff. So it's either we start reducing, we're gonna try and fight as much as we can, but, personally, I` I` I don't know. I don't know if I can see a long-lasting future if we're going to continue the way we are in Level 2 with 50 people in the restaurant. There's` I've got a bar. I've got` I've got a venue room. There's so much facility for us, but 50 will not cut it for us. - So is there a real possibility, Althea, after five years that you might have to close? - Strong possibility, yes. - Okay. Look, thank you for sharing your story with us. Look after yourself and let's hope that we all pull through this together, especially you. Thank you so much for your time, Althea. - Thank you very much. - Althea Jack, struggling there in South Auckland. OK, for more than a year, the government's been ignoring calls for purpose-built MIQ facilities. Now, new research from esteemed scientists shows New Zealand has twice the risk of leaks out of MIQ compared to Australia, which is moving away from hotels. Anna Bracewell-Worrall reports. - Give us a surfer one kitchen cloth, some fresh bed sheets and two weeks of quarantine. - The stop motion video took a couple of days. I used just old cups, old forks. - The facility Murray Pearce is in is re-appropriated too. Darwin's Howard Springs, is a former miners camp. - No one's exactly happy to be here, but I think you would find for the wellbeing and mental health, it's a lot more positive here than I think it would be stuck in a high-rise building. - Guests love the fresh air and epidemiologists do too. - The big problem with using hotels from an infection control perspective, is that they have shared corridors, shared lifts and the ventilation is far from ideal. - There are no lifts or hallways here. There have been no COVID leaks from this facility. It's so successful that Australia's building more of them. - That's the type of model that we need to get to. - A study from eight public health researchers, including Michael Baker and Nick Wilson, has found New Zealand has twice the rate of MIQ failures of Australia. The scientists recommend shifting quarantine facilities to rural military bases or camps where units are spread out. - The problem with a big city is that if there's an outbreak, the social and economic cost is dramatically magnified. - The current alert level settings, Auckland in lockdown and the rest of the country at Level 2, is costing the economy an estimated billion dollars a week. So the pressure's on to move MIQ out of hotels in Auckland CBD. - Auckland is the country's engine room. It isn't a sick bay. What we need to do is to remove the ever-present threat. - In South Auckland, we know that we're most susceptible because we're at the border. So if there's ways to invite a better spread of where people are going, where people can isolate, then that's going to be really important. - Pressure from inside Parliament too. - It's really important that we look at purpose-built facilities outside our major cities. I realise that there will be a challenge with staff, but surely that can be overcome. - But while National also wants purpose-built cabins, it thinks Auckland Airport's the right place for them. - It's a nice pipe dream to, you know, go out to the middle of nowhere, you know, middle of the countryside somewhere, and plop down a purpose-built facility. But you do have to have staff there. - The middle of nowhere is exactly where Baker and Wilson want to see Kiwis quarantine. Somewhere like Ohakea military base, which has its own airfield and land ripe for cabins or campervans. - It would mean in a future pandemic, which could even be more severe than this current COVID pandemic, you would be ready to go. - The government's considering it, but it's also still thinking about buying current MIQ hotels. - It might be that we buy one of our` one or two of our existing facilities. - It is such a fundamentally flawed model. - At the beginning of the pandemic, people evacuated from Wuhan were quarantined at the military base at Whangaparoa. Later, the government hired campervans. If the government listens to these experts, their COVID response would go full circle. - Anna Bracewell-Worral there. Up next, analysis from our political panellists, Julia Whaipooti and John Tamihere. Plus ` waking up to the news of the 9/11 attack two decades on. Our country's leaders reflect on the day that changed the world. Hoki mai ano, welcome back. I'm joined now by our panel of Julia Whaipooti and John Tamihere. Tena korua, thanks for your time this morning. Let's start with the number of violent extremists living in the community, as revealed by Corrections. John, I mean, listening to Kelvin Davis there, are you reassured by what he's saying? - Oh, look, I think if we've known about them` I didn't, and you didn't until the attack happened just down the road here in New Lynn, and all Kiwis, I think, would believe that if somebody is deeply radicalised and deeply dangerous, well, they shouldn't be in the community, and the amount of money to surveil them must be huge. And so they either get returned to their place of origin, or society is protected on the basis of our laws being changed quite dramatically and urgently to ensure the safety of New Zealanders against radicalised` Whether they're white supremacists like the guy in Christchurch, or whether they're like this chap in New Lynn. - Julia, Corrections have sort of come under a bit of criticism for the way that they placed this person in the community. Kelvin Davis defended that and said that he just has to go on the recommendations. But as John saying, I mean, should we have any place for these people in the community? - Well, the issue actually broader beyond this extreme terrorist that was released into the community. So we know that many people that go into prisons, they're gonna come back out and it's about the support that they have while they're in present to address harmful behaviours. And what we know is that he was sitting in prison for a number of years without access, really, to any anything to change or alter his behaviour or chance of dangerous offending. There is a higher level, and I agree with John, in terms of surveilling terrorists such as this person that they needs` they perhaps shouldn't be placed back into the community, that there need to be a different approach to them. But the question is actually for all people who end up in prison, especially those held on remand, they just sitting there, and I often refer to prisons as a university of crime because just sitting there amongst` In a place where you're not getting any support, access to programmes And that's a problem, because they get released back out. - Are you surprised, Julia, by the number that are out in the community? 135? - Oh, it's always going to be a surprise, it's not something that's really public knowledge. At the end of the day, that's actually it is a lot, but it's also quite a small number. And with such a small population in New Zealand and rich resource that there can be` I would expect there should be a different way as to how we deal with all of these people. But also, I'm cautious about knee-jerk law changes, because what we know from the law as it currently is, it's often used against Maori. If you look at the Urewera raids, and wasn't used with the white supremacist who was in Christchurch, and we know that there are white supremacists in this country. So it's like, how the law is applied as well. So those are the things that I'm cautious about. - All right. If we can move on to another topic with the Minister, he's the Minister for Children, so Oranga Tamariki. Kelvin Davis is promising, you know, the release of the advisory board by the end of July. Nothing has come from that yet. John Tamihere, are you disappointed in the pace of change? - Oh yeah, of course we are. Look, this agency is just replete historically with massive abuses visited on their care and their custody arrangements, particularly in regard to Maori babies. In Auckland alone over the last 30 years, Waipareia has just received the qualification and accreditation to seek custody and care orders for Maori children. It's taken us 30 years with this agency, where non-Maori agencies have had significant investment, built capacity, capability. It's just not right. It's failed 21 independent reviews. The State Services Commission has failed. - But, but now we have Kelvin Davis, a Maori minister in charge of Oranga Tamariki Julia. I mean, do you buy his reasoning that they haven't released this report because it's lockdown, and they want to be level one? Why can't we just see it now? Surely the pace of change can be done by email. - Well, I'm grossly impatient, when, I mean, the year I was born, the numbers of Maori children in state care are exactly the same. Proportionately, it's actually a bit worse now, and now I have a baby, so I don't want to wait another 33 years to see significant change. So I think the urgency needs to be found. I commend Minister Davis for the work that he has done in appointing this group. However, it doesn't translate necessarily into action. So numbers haven't shifted. There hasn't been a substantive shift in how we're doing things. I think it's completely unacceptable that we keep putting money, billions of dollars into a state institution that, actually, time and time again, it hurts our whanau and our children. We want to keep them in good care. And I think steps towards, like John was saying, funding Waipareira, or Maori-led organisations is a step, but it can't be to fund brown drivers or Maori drivers of the existing system. We need to have the autonomy to do what we know works for us. - OK, well, on a on a broader scale, I guess in terms of 'by Maori, for Maori, we're at a pivotal point in Crown-Maori relations. We've got He Puapua being out in the community, and as a roadmap towards the future, and we're also sort of marking 40 years since the Springbok game at Eden Park, so race relations are forefront now. Are we a better Aotearoa on now than 40 years ago, John Tamihere? - Oh look, we` Our nationhood story continues to evolve. I was at the protest with my students association 40 years ago, so that tells you how long I've been sort of kicking this can down the road. Are we a better nation for` evolving as a nationhood story? Yes, we are. Have we landed anywhere near where we should? Of course we have not. And the discussions we're having on the trafficking, stopping the trafficking of our children to Oranga Tamariki, or to the corrections, really, we want to stop the trafficking. We can't get into that conversation, cos too many folk are making too much money out of feeding off Maori, so there's a whole range of things that we've gotta do, but have we come a long way in a short time? I think we have, but I think we've got a lot longer to go. - Julia Whaipooti, what do you say to that? How are we doing in terms of the overall picture of race relations? - I think we obviously have come a far away, and also at the same time, not far at all when you see the substantive statistical experiences of Maori haven't shifted a lot. I'm really grateful to those that have walked before me, both Maori and Pakeha, who have worked hard to try and bring race relations to the place that it is now, but it isn't actually living the potential that it should be. I think about when` I love rugby, and I think about that man that was on the Wellington rugby board who came out and said such offensive and racist things directed at Maori, which given that the game's built off Maori and Pacific players, I found really offensive. And if I think about the Springbok tour, you had lots of people come out and speak against that. And then when this happened, we had one` really just one current player speak out against that publicly, that was TJ Perenara, and so I think that there's an interesting` the politics isn't quite the same there with rugby, we just kind of took it cos` And that's an example of how things haven't shifted at the same time. So yeah. - So, we're heading into Wiki o te Reo Maori, and this week Lorde released a mini album in te reo. The debate at the moment is whether that's tokenism or a celebration of the language. Julia, do you have an idea or an opinion on that? - Um, yeah, I think firstly, just to acknowledge that all the feelings that all Maori, who are not all the same, have in response to this is valid, and it's not for Pakeha to correct that, and it's not, for Maori, for us to fight amongst ourselves about it. I personally think it's a great thing, and it's a celebration of our language. It could have been tokenistic but for the way that she went about doing it, she involved matatau, experts in te reo Maori and Tikanga Maori to support the development of what she did, and for me, personally, you have someone, who doesn't need a platform with Maori, to the millions of her fans, it's not going to make her money. She's already rich. You know what I mean? - Yeah. So she's done it in a really ethical way, involved the experts and taken their guidance, and spread out language to millions of people who otherwise wouldn't have touched it or known about it. So I think it's a good thing. - And just quickly, JT and you were nodding your head then, do you agree with that? - Oh, yeah, look, I think Lord exhibits the new generation of Kiwis who are safe and comfortable in advancing the Maori tongue of their nationhood and then helping to define themselves in a global world which lacks definition. I think Lorde should be celebrated as a consequence, not just in the way in which she embarked on this, but it's quite courageous, when you've already got your following, as my cousin Miss Whaipooti has said, so I just think I just think it's a courageous thing. I think it's got nothing to do with cultural appropriation. I think her generation will be the new generation of leaders when we finally land in a safe space for race relations. - And that's a great point to leave the panel today. Julia Whaipooti and John Tamihere, tena korua. E whai ake nei, Helen Clark remembers a day that changed the world. But first, stay tuned for some sick socially distanced burns in the house. Hoki mai ano, welcome back. This weekend marks two decades since the 9/11 terror attacks rocked the United States to its core. As each year passes, it becomes a more distant memory, but the images of that day are unforgettable. While America's leaders tried to comprehend the disaster, New Zealand's leaders too were forced to react. So this week, Mitch McCann asked some of them to reflect on that horrible day, 20 years on. (TENSE MUSIC) - You knew that at the moment that you were watching, hundreds and then thousands of people were about to lose their lives. (SIRENS BLARE) - It's hard to recreate the sense of disbelief that this could happen to America. (POLICE OFFICERS EXCLAIM) (CAR HORNS HONK) - Move it! Come on! - They are the pictures of horror seared into the minds of those who watched it unfold. The United States under attack on United States' soil. - (SHRIEKS) - And while America stood stunned, New Zealand was still fast asleep. - And I'd barely got to sleep when I got a telephone call. And it was in fact the driver from the public service garage that rang me up, but he said, 'Minister, I think you better see what's happening in America. 'Turn your television set on.' And that was kind of curious. He said, 'There's been some sort of plane crash in New York.' Less than two years into his role as Foreign Minister, Phil Goff would soon be wide awake. In his apartment near the Beehive, he watched in shock. - People weren't clear what had happened at that stage, but when the second plane went in, it was clear that this wasn't simply a tragic accident. This was a coordinated, highly sophisticated terrorist attack. - Goff would soon get dressed and head to work, but his boss would not be waiting. Prime Minister Helen Clark had just landed in Hong Kong en route to Europe. - I could see on the TV screen these strange images of smoke pouring out of a tower in New York. But no interpretation, no idea what was happening. - It wasn't until Clark boarded her next flight when the phone rang to deliver the news. Meanwhile, New Zealand had an official presence much closer to the chaos. In Washington, Ambassador Jim Bolger was finishing up a business breakfast. - One of the people there had some sort of electronic gadget on his belt, which recorded that a plane hit the` one plane had hit the Twin Towers. - At first, Bolger thought it was a terrible accident. His wishful thinking shared by millions would soon be erased. - It wasn't till I walked down to my car, the driver said to me a second plane had hit the second tower. And I said, 'Well, there's no accident here.' - 9/11 would be a day that was later described as one that changed the world. But before most New Zealanders had woken up to the news, officials in Wellington were already working. - Phil Goff and Acting Prime Minister Jim Anderton had gathered before sunrise. - There was a small group of us gathered in the Beehive. There wasn't a heck of a lot we could do, frankly, about what was happening in the United States, but nor was it an alternative to simply say, 'This is terrible. Go home and go back to bed.' - Cabinet had a job to locate New Zealanders involved. The embassy in Washington would help, but staff there had a more immediate problem. - There was a plane had come across the Pentagon, which was effectively the other side of it, where the embassy was. And then the lingering question was where was the fourth plane that was known to be heading towards Washington? - That fourth plane had crashed in a field in Pennsylvania, killing all on board. Meanwhile, Prime Minister Clark had arrived in Europe and had to make a decision. - I was busy on the phone from the time I landed in Rome, and I very quickly made the decision that I would return to New Zealand when the flights left at the end of the day. - As the morning wore on, New Zealanders had tuned in to watch the TV coverage. Newshub, or 3 News as it was known back then, went on air and interviewed Phil Goff. - ARCHIVE: It'll be some time before we get information through from New York, given the chaos, given the pandemonium that exists there. - It was a more muted chaos behind the scenes. Goff, Anderton and Bolger needed to know if any Kiwis had been caught in the disaster. - How do we contact families who will be worried about the fact that they have friends or relatives that might have been on the plane or might have been in the building? - Instantly in circumstances like that, you have a responsibility to try and find out what's happening to New Zealanders who might be in the location, in the circumstances. - And it took a while for the fog, the smoke around us to clear enough to find whether there were Kiwi nationals directly impacted. - As it turned out, there were New Zealanders impacted. 48-year-old Alan Beaven helped wrestle hijackers on United Flight 93. He's credited with helping the plane avoid Washington, possibly saving thousands. John Lozowsky a US-born New Zealander, was in one of the towers when it was struck. The 45-year-old left behind a 6-year-old son named Max, who would now be around 27. Clark, Goff and Bolger all had different roles to play that day from opposite sides of the world. Calming public anxieties, supporting the United States and finding out whether or not any New Zealanders had been involved in the attacks. For each of them, there were different moments that day that will stick with them for the rest of their lives. - It was, uh... an experience that lead you to understand the sheer weight of responsibility that you had holding that particular position. You felt personally responsible for any Kiwis that might have lost their lives in these events. - Clark says, for the first time, Kiwis started to understand the threat. We could not be immune to a changing world. - Kiwis travel so much. We can be anywhere, any time, when an extremist group decides to assault. We're relatively protected by our own remoteness, but not entirely, as we saw just last week at Lynn Mall. - For Bolger, watching his Kiwi staff at the embassy that day still sits front of mind. He says they weren't American, but they lived in an American world. - They felt a great sense of empathy with the American people they worked with, who had been so hurt, so violated. - A motion that many who watched these events unfold still feel today, as New Zealand and the world remembers September 11, 2001, 20 years on. - Mitch McCann reporting there. Stay with us. We're back after the break. Welcome back, and we are back with our panel, Julia Whaipooti and John Tamihere. Thank you so much, nga mihi nui for sticking around. I'd just like to talk about the video of Siouxie Wiles released this week, sitting on a beach with a friend in her bubble, Judith Collins` and maskless ` Judith Collins climbed into this and called her a big fat hypocrite. What do you make of that, Julia? - I think it's disgusting politics. Dr Siouxie Wiles has been a respected expert over the past year, really informing and giving us great information as New Zealanders to respond to and to keep us safe` ourselves safe, and I really think we need strong opposition. I want a leader of opposition who was asking hard questions and challenging many things including, for example, vaccination rates and how the government is performing. I do not want someone who attacks another woman publicly who are experts in their field in something that is an attack on her personal appearance, an attack on her expertise. I think it's disgusting and unacceptable, and I don't have a place for that kind of politics in my life. - John Tamihere, what do you make of Judith Collins climbing into that? Because I mean, she's been trying to be the forceful opposition, back in Parliament, have a higher profile, combat the 1pm pressers, but she says something like this on a Zoom call. What do you make of that? - Yeah, look, you can't get away with this type of politics at this moment in time when we're all hunkering down and trying to work really hard in a unified way. The problem Judith had is her facts were all wrong. Firstly, within every one of the rules, regulations and policies. She was with somebody in her own bubble, and as a consequence, proximity wasn't an issue. So I didn't worry about that. Secondly, you're allowed to get exercise within five kilometres of your own house. It ticked that box. And the word 'fat,' and the word 'hypocrite' are hugely impactive and mean-spirited, in light of the circumstances. If that other person wasn't in her bubble, it would have been game over. Right? But that's not true. So you've got to be an opposition that uses the truth rather than gets into this sort of baiting. - OK, let's go on to who some people are calling the de facto opposition, then. That's David Seymour and Act. John, I mean, he, David Seymour, you know, got a lot of stick for releasing that access code to give for whanau on social media to go to get vaccinated. What did you make of his reasons for doing that? He was saying that he wanted all New Zealanders, regardless of race, the opportunity to be vaccinated. What did you make of it? - Oh, look, he knows and I know that in most vaccination centres up and down this country, there's about a 35%, 40% free board with people to walk up. And Asian and White middle-class New Zealanders worked that out Really quickly. Maoris always are trained to stay at the back of the queue. And so what we were reaching out to say is our vaccination rates are low. We don't want to go through a stupid appointment process and silly cones, we want the Minister Health now to identify where people are and call them in. See we should be now, after six months of vaccinations into an invitation flow rather than through first-up, best dressed flow. And that penalises people in vulnerable communities like mighty Pacific Islanders. So it's wrong. - OK, so I mean, Julia, I mean, what did you make of David Seymour's justification for releasing or putting that vaccination access goes code online? - I think he was playing politics to his followers. He knows full well that disproportionately the people that are getting vaccinated are Pakeha. This was an equity step to try and encourage and make more accessible for Maori, we have are the most unvaccinated people in this country, and one of the highest risk people, should we have severe COVID outbreaks in this country. I find it unforgivable that he's playing politics with our lives, because what he what he has done in thrown any equitable response to encourage more Maori to come through and then put it out to encourage more pakeha to take up those spaces. And we know that Maori-led organisations that are leading vaccinations in this country, 90% of the people they're vaccinating are Pakeha, so taking steps to vaccinate our people he's undermined completely. - But I want to put to both of you then what Kelvin Davis said, and he said that, you know, basically, you know, ignorance is no excuse for not getting vaccinated. He seemed to say that the government is doing enough and it's up to Maori to get to the vaccination sites now. - No, his head's totally wrong or totally misinformed or bordering on incompetence. The fact of the matter is, is that the appointment system, no doubt, is contrary to the ability to on-board Maori. So what we are doing now on the data system ` and we've been locked out of data systems up and down this country ` non-Maori get access to all our data. As soon as we get our data, we can call our people in on a measured basis and reach out to them and give them messages that we would give, not silly things thought up by the medicos in the Ministry of Health. So, yeah, Kelvin's wrong on every level. - Are you saying that the` So the messaging, that question about the messaging to Maori around the country? Julia, I mean, what do you think? I mean, Kelvin Davis says that they've been doing it, JT saying they're not getting the message through. What do you think? - Well, they clearly don't because we're not vaccinated. We're like the lowest vaccinated group in the country. I think Kelvin and this government have failed Maori in designing how we vaccinate our people. From the start, I mean, Dr Rawiri Jansen was on the government advisory group as to how to roll up vaccinations. He quit, and that was over six months ago. He quit because they weren't listening to the advice he was given in terms of taking an equity approach into how we roll out vaccinations. For Minister Davis to come out and say that Maori need to listen is lazy, and I think it's a failure of a government that has the most Maori in government ever, that they didn't put` Our lives are taken more seriously, and from the start, design them into the process to ensure our people were looked after, and now we're dealing with the consequences of that. So I find that I think he's incorrect, and I actually think he's failed within government to push out something that looks after our people. - OK, so in this, you're talking about the government failing to look after Maori, but on a broader sense, is the shine coming off Labour? We've seen in the digital power rankings, you know, National's getting ahead with its postings. Are they running out of out of some political capital now? - Look, I think I think the general sense of the government is quite widely supportive, particularly around COVID-related matters. What you're running into is a society and a community that is tired, that doesn't have the headspace to handle lockdown after lockdown and the like. And so of course, everybody is getting short with one another. And of course, that's starting to show. But the opposition is in a total state of disarray, and I just can't see their plan at the moment apart from race-baiting. - OK, we're going to have to leave it there this time for our panel. John Tamihere, Julia Whaipoori, thanks very much for your time. OK, so there was only a handful of MP back in Parliament, but as you'll see even a little bit of question time can go a long way. Here's Finn Hogan with the week that was in Wellington. Well, once more, the socially-distanced house was sitting this week, but it seems even the MVP's are getting COVID restriction fatigue. - They had 18 months. Now, the Speaker's asking Keri Tapu Allen if she could put her mask on, I think. - And no prizes for guessing the opposition question line after the mystery at Middlemore. - Does he accept that ultimately he is responsible for the coronavirus situation at Middlemore Hospital, and not health staff? - But the health minister was quick to clap back. - I don't think I heard a more ridiculous question in this house in the short time I've been in parliament. - And with some of the country still locked at Level 4, at least Speaker Trevor Mallard is showing no one is above COVID rules. - I'm just going to note that there are currently too many Labour members in the House and at least one of them will leave. I don't want it recorded that I threw out the Prime Minister. but amongst the usual burns and banter, a reminder of the human cost of lockdown from Labour's Greg O'Connor. - I'd like to wish a malo e leilei to our colleague Anahila Kanongata'a-Suisuiki. The personal face of the lockdown. Last year she lost her mother during Level 4. This year, she lost her father during Level 4. And families throughout New Zealand will all have stories like that, an inability to grieve in this case. And that is all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching. Kia pai nai rangi whakata. Have a great weekend, and from us at Te Rohe, The Nation, have a great wiki o te reo Maori. Captions by Jade Fernandes and John Gibbs. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 This programme was made with the assistance of the NZ On Air Platinum Fund.