- E haere ake nei, today on Newshub Nation ` he's preparing our health system for routine delta. Health Minister Andrew Little on what to expect next year when we open up to the world. Then the pitch in our first double header, David Seymour and Chris Bishop debate their alternative visions for an open New Zealand. And getting to know our leaders at home with Rawiri Waititi, at Whangaparaoa, near East Cape. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 Kia ora tatou katoa, I'm Simon Shepherd and welcome to Te Rohe ` it's the te reo name for Newshub Nation, as we enjoy Te Wiki o te Reo Maori ` Maori Language Week. Ko nga pitopito korero e te whare paremata ` in political news this week. Te Pati Maori has launched a petition to change the official name of New Zealand to Aotearoa, and use te reo names for all towns, cities and places by 2026. More than 50,000 people have signed the petition so far. Australia, the UK and the US have entered a new defence pact. The three nations will share technologies, including AI and nuclear submarines. Jacinda Ardern said the new agreement will not affect our existing partnerships, but Judith Collins says New Zealand's lack of involvement is concerning. And Auckland is on track to leave Level 4 lockdown next week. 11 new community cases announced Friday takes the total number in this outbreak to 1007. Of those, 14 are in hospital and 550 have recovered. 90% or more of the eligible population ` that's the vaccination rate Director-General of Health Ashley Bloomfield says is critical for New Zealand to reach. But what will that give us? Modeller Michael Plank says that level of vaccination, combined with masks, testing, tracing, some border restrictions will make future outbreaks manageable, but without lockdowns. Most importantly, the number of deaths could be limited to less than 100 per year. For more on what life living with Delta could look like, Tova O'Brien joins us now from parliament. Tena koe, Tova. - Morena, Simon. And joining us now as well is the Minister of Health, Andrew Little. Tena koe, Minister. - Tena koe, Tova. - Can you just start by giving us an update on today's case numbers and if Auckland's still on track to be moving out of Level 4 on Tuesday? - I haven't seen today's case numbers. Obviously, yesterday's numbers were looking pretty encouraging ` down to 11, maybe three unlinked cases. I suspect they will have been resolved during the day yesterday. But, so far, the numbers in the last few days are looking right, but we just have to see what the numbers for the next couple of days look like. - Do you know if there's anything going on in Tauranga? We're hearing that perhaps maybe one of those locations of interest that popped up yesterday could be spurring on further cases? - No, I haven't heard that. I know we had the case of the truck driver who'd travelled down that far from Auckland, but the advice is that he was` took all the right precautions, was masked and so that is considered low risk. So not seeing anything problematic at this point. - I think a lot of people in Auckland are going to want to know about Level 3 as well, because after last year's March and August lockdowns, we stayed in Level 3 for at least two weeks. So should Auckland be preparing itself to have at least two weeks with, you know, lockdown with takeaways? - Yeah, we're seeing Level 3 as a reasonably short transition from Level 4 to Level 2. Again, it will all depend on what the numbers are looking like. And I think that, as we're seeing with the Delta variant, it has changed the way things look compared to last year's version of COVID. So, look, we'll just take the numbers day by day as they are and make those judgements accordingly. - But it won't be any less than a fortnight in Level 3 for Auckland? - Look, I don't want to get too far ahead of decisions the Cabinet makes, but, as I say, we see Level 3 as a shorter-term transition period. But how long that is will depend on the flow of numbers over the days that follow. - And you're preparing our health system for the next year's reopening, preparing it for Delta. Dr Bloomfield says we need to vaccinate at least to 90% to be able to start reopening. Do you agree with that 90% figure? - I'd like to think we could get beyond that. I mean, we do need a high figure of a vaccinated population. We've seen other countries getting to the 80% ` you know, the Singapores, the Israels, and yet, you know, the infection still happens and there's pressure on the health systems. The reality is about vaccination is it won't stop people getting infected, but it will minimise the impact on them, and therefore take more pressure off the health system. But we will still need to have measures in place. People still need to have a place to recover. We` I'm attracted to the Australian model, which is as many people as possible are recovering at home in the community, but with regular monitoring from the local hospital; and then for people who do need more intensive care, hospital-level care or intensive care, that we have places for them to go that are equipped to do that. And bearing in mind that within the outbreak, we don't know what the numbers are gonna be, and if it's an outbreak outside of a metropolitan area and a provincial hospital area, you know, what do we need to make sure is in place so that the care is there? - As well as` So that home care model's really interesting for COVID cases, could you do something similar as well for self-isolating? So people returning to New Zealand. And to take some of that pressure off the MIQ, people would isolate at home if they're from low-risk countries, if they're double vaccinated, for example. - Well, we're in the process of putting together some pilots on just that at the moment. That the business sector pilot for self-isolating for people crossing the border. So we want to roll that out in the next few weeks. We'll have people actually crossing the border doing that self-isolating under that new sort of model. We'll see what that looks like and then see whether that can be expanded. - And you were also saying before we came to air as well that, you know, purpose-built MIQs have to be` they have to be part of the equation, right? - Yeah, they` We will have to consider that. We're tying up a lot of hotel space at the moment. As we get the vaccination numbers up, as we start to reduce the restrictions, particularly on the border and our tourism industry can get back into life. We've still got to have a place to go for people to isolate who are come from the high-risk countries when they cross the border. So we are going to have to look at the facilities that we have available. - And to get to that 90% plus vaccination rate, would you mandate vaccines for all public servants, big business and health care workers as we've seen the United States president do? - We're having` Look, we are considering what we do with frontline health workers and whether we mandate that. That's under active consideration. And we'll see where we go beyond that, and we've done it with border workers and so on already. Where we go beyond that, you know, do we have to look at food workers and others? Let's` Let's take some advice on that. - What about public servants? - Not sure about public servants. I know that's certainly the police, because` and things like ambulance drivers, emergency services personnel, they are in the front line, the risk is higher for them. I mean, some of their organisations are saying we have to look very carefully about, you know, who winds up in the front line and whether they need to be vaccinated for it. I think a lot of employers are grappling with this issue. I think the government is going to have to play a role in working with employers to understand where we actually say, 'The risk is too great. There's a bottom line here and vaccination is it.' - Because I wonder if you don't do it, if you don't mandate vaccines for the public servants, what would you say to the public servants who want to be able to go to work, to feel safe, to not be` to be around people who have been vaccinated, so they've got less chance of contracting COVID-19? Could you at least force unvaccinated public servants to work from home, for example? - Yeah, look, I think this is a question we're all going to have to face, and I think there's also a question about, you know, the public service model and what we want the rest of the population to do. I'm not quite sure what vaccination levels are amongst public servants at the moment, but, look, these are all these questions we are going to have to seriously consider. In the end, from the government's point of view, for a health perspective, we just need to maximise that number of the population that is vaccinated. The number of 90% is now used. I'd like to think we can get beyond that. As a country, we've done pretty well, actually, in our response to COVID. One of the best things we could do is lead the world in terms of vaccination rate. - So we've got that number now, thankfully, which took us a long time to get there. But we've got that number now ` 90% plus. But how many people do you expect to be double vaxxed by the end of the year? What's the actual timeframe like? - Well, we have said, all those who can be and want to be, we want vaccinated by the end of the year. We've got` We're up to over 70% now have the first dose. We're doing roughly 60000 a day. We've sort of settled down at the moment. There's still capacity to do more if we can. A lot of work going into getting into the hard-to-reach communities. We know that there are some pockets of the community where the hesitancy is more elevated and we're sort of working on strategies to deal with that. We are just gonna do everything we can to get the highest possible vaccination rate. - Come Christmas, what will the vaccination rate be in New Zealand, according to the modelling that you've been looking at? - I can't say. We are working darn hard to make sure the rate is the highest it possibly can be. - But if it's not 90%, would you be prepared to lockdown for Christmas? - Well, we don't` we're not planning anything for Christmas because` - But if that` If you had to, if there was an outbreak come Christmas and we're not at 90% yet, would the country lock down again? - Look, I can't say that. We make those judgements based on the circumstances as we see it at the time. We'll work hard on getting the vaccination rate up ` there's capacity there. We're gonna get through the current lockdown, start getting people back to a level of normality, do the preparation for the system to deal with more relaxed rules, borders opening, and an acceptance that with COVID in the future, we're just going to have to manage infection outbreaks. - And, with Delta, do we also need to prepare for some level of restrictions in perpetuity, so perhaps mask-wearing or regional lockdowns, for as far as the eye can see? - Well, certainly things like mask-wearing, scanning, people should expect to continue ` sanitising, those sorts of basic precautions. I think you'll see the health workforce will still have to use PPE when they're dealing with emergency departments and on the wards and what have you. So that will be around for a while until we get to understand long-term the way COVID behaves. - And regional lockdowns? - Well, I'm not quite sure. I think there may well be some limitations for large and extensive, out-of-control outbreaks. Again, we just don't know. But the idea of a Level 4 lockdown, I think, once we get through this, I'd be surprised if we ever see a Level 4 lockdown again. Level 3 becomes problematic too. - That is going to come as a huge relief to the country. - Yeah, I think, but depending on the nature of outbreaks in the future, restrictions might have to be put in place. I think what's most important is we get our response correct from the health system so that we can minimise disruption to people. - And the rollout is gonna get harder and harder as we go along. You know, those who want to get vaccinated have been vaccinated, and you're going to be pushing into those kind of anti-vaxxers or the vaccine hesitant. Will you set a deadline that says regardless of how many people have been vaccinated, we will start opening up to the world? - Again, look, when the numbers are getting up there, we'll start to make those judgements. I mean, there's a lot of thinking going on at the moment about what opening the borders looks like. You know, we've started with the rating of the countries. Whether we continue with that sort of model, I'm not quite sure. We'll be opening up to the Pacific. We're letting the RSE workers in and go to and from. So there's stuff starting to happen now. Once we get through this outbreak and Australia sort of gets their things under control, we can look at opening up the border there, but we are just going to have to manage this week-by-week, month-by-month as we sort of gauge what is right for our health system, for our economy and for people's sense of wellbeing. - We've had 27 deaths ` COVID-19 deaths, but looking at around the rest of the world and as they're opening up, that number seems unrealistically low. What is the acceptable annual death rate for COVID? - Look, I couldn't put a number on that. Look, we have death rates` - Oh, look, we need to kind of try and hone in on this is gonna be the reality. Denmark's got roughly the same population as us, but 80% vaccinated, starting to open up but expecting around 1000 deaths. Would that be acceptable to you? - Look, I can't put a number on it. We have death rates out of things ` your basic influenza outbreak, from one year to the next. - So 500 a year seasonal deaths ` seasonal flu deaths. So is that` is that what we're` - I'm not going to put a` No health minister's going to say this number of deaths is ever acceptable. What we do need to do is make sure we have a response that that manages outbreaks as best as possible and minimises the risk of harm, including fatality, to people as a consequence of any future outbreak. - Taking that seasonal flu death rate ` 500 a year. Maori are still nearly four times more likely to die of seasonal flu. Can you make a commitment? Can you ensure that Maori won't suffer the same disproportionate deaths from COVID-19? - Well, that's what we're trying to get to, even with this vaccination rollout. And we're` It's in fits and starts, but we're improving our equity performance. One of the reasons for the health reforms is exactly because the health outcomes for Maori and for Pacific have been so uneven. But we want the Maori Health Authority to provide the leadership that I know is there to improve health outcomes for Maori. We know with influenza, you know, we have an annual immunisation campaigns. The same will have to happen for COVID, I expect, and we just have to make sure that the systems are in place and the leadership is there so that, actually, everybody gets treated equally. - Could you also delay opening up` So, we've got that 90% overarching vaccination rate, but could you also just refrain from opening up until you've got individualised targets for each ethnicity, age group and different demographics? - I think we want to make sure that the system, the health system, both in terms of the preventative measures ` you know, the vaccinations and what have you ` but also the response, that there is an equity based on ethnicity or race. And we` we've got a great system at the moment. We've got some amazing health providers, Kaupapa Maori health providers, Pacific health providers, who are really forging ahead now and getting good responses, good systems in place for their communities. We will continue to support that. - Ashley Bloomfield signalled that 5-year-olds to 11-year-olds will also be included in the vaccine rollout. When's that going to happen? - Look, there's a lot of work to go before we get there. Not many countries around the world are doing those under 12, but there's talk of that, talk of the need for that. We have to find a suitable vaccine that has to go through our Pharmac and Medsafe process. That is some way off yet. - We're also currently at 64% of the ICU capacity, that only leaves about 100 beds free. You've talked about some of those other home models, but is the staffing, is the workforce simply not there, and do you need to be putting more pressure on the immigration minister to bring in some of those doctors and nurses who are offshore and wanting to come to New Zealand? - So on that, I mean, we did, as a result of the outbreaks last year, start a programme of work of training more nurses up to be able to work in ICU environments. So about 1200-odd nurses, I think, have had that training. There'll be ongoing training and we'll continue that` - There's more than 1000 offshore doctors and nurses who want` - Sure, and in terms of folks coming in, healthcare workers coming across the border, I think nearly 45% of people who have crossed the border in the last 18 months have been healthcare workers. So we are seeing a lot of people, but we've got a lot of vacancies in the healthcare system. so we need to fill these vacancies, absolutely. - We've got only a minute to go. Sorry, Minister. So we'll just wrap this up. Just quickly on to talk` touch on medicinal cannabis. At the end of this month, many people using legal medicinal cannabis won't be able to access their medicine any more. There's only one of the more expensive brands that's been approved. Are you going to relax standards for medicinal cannabis so that more products can be made available? - No, we're not. We've extended this the exemption three times now, and we said the last time, 'This is it.' - The system wasn't working. - Well, the system is working. There are a number of applications under active consideration right now. There are a number of products that are available, but also people who are using cannabis-based products, can, through the named-patient system, continue to use products that haven't yet been approved. But we've got to know products that are available do meet international safety standards. That's going to be absolutely critical. - And just on recreational cannabis. Since 2019, police have been able to use discretion and take a health-based approach on arresting users. New figures show that while the overall arrest rates are down, they're actually up for Maori. So are the police showing their unconscious bias there? - Look, I've seen the reporting about that. I haven't sort of seen what underpins that. I mean, often there's other associated activity. I'd be really disappointed if there is a racial bias coming through in those prosecution decisions. In the end, I think that is a matter that the police are going to have to continue to review. - thank you very much for your time this morning, Minister Andrew Little. Kia ora. Back to you, Simon. - Thank you, Tova. Tova there with the Minister of Health Andrew Little. - If you've got a news tip, get in touch. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. E whai ake nei, we dissect the week's political news with our panel Matthew Hooton and Carmen Parahi. But first, it's the pitch, but double. David Seymour and Chris Bishop thrash out their visions for opening New Zealand up to the world. So, let's take a look at how the rest of the world has gone on this week. - Delta is definitely more infectious. - It's like dealing with a whole new virus. - Many, many more contacts per case than we ever have before. - Delta is driving the rise of Australia's third wave. - Our challenge is to make sure that we keep vaccination rates up. - Panic setting in as the virus keeps spreading. - So now we have to contain the growth of cases and the speed at which they increase. - The disease sadly still remains a risk. - Cases, hospitalisations and deaths are all higher than the same time last year, just as the weather is turning. - Fiji's COVID crisis is deepening. - The numbers are increasing every day. - We still have hundreds of Americans dying every week of this disease. - Bodies were piled in streets in India. - There were too many grieving families and not enough workers to help bury the dead. - US President Joe Biden has created an emergency rule to mandate vaccines for tens of millions of Americans. - This is not about freedom or personal choice. It's about protecting yourself and those around you. - When do you start to decide, 'Hey, it's here, we have to learn to live with it.' - Delta clearly not to be underestimated. So now to the pitch where we give a politician just five minutes to sell you on their ideas. But today a twist, because too much pitch is never enough, we're giving you double. A 10 minute pitch with two politicians and Tova O'Brien in parliament. - Throughout the pandemic, both the National and ACT parties have been feeling drowned out by the prime minister at her precious podium of power. We wanted to give the leaders of both parties the opportunity to take to the podium and pitch to you as a potential prime minister, how they would lead the country out of the pandemic. Unfortunately, the speaker said no. So we are here in the opposition version, the podiums of promise. And perhaps tellingly, we didn't end up with both the leaders, either. We've got ACT's boss David Seymour and perhaps the potential future leader of the National Party, Chris Bishop. Kia ora ko rua. We don't have a coin to toss to decide who gets the first question. Hands up, whoever's got their hand up first, Who is the leader of the opposition? - (CHUCKLES) - Or the closest approximation to it? - Well, according to the standing orders, it's the leader of the largest party who's not in government. So that would be Judith Collins. - OK, so default question to Chris Bishop. Chris Bishop. We've been struggling to get a target out of the government for the vaccination rate. Finally, this week, Ashley Bloomfield said critical mission ` over 90% Is that high enough and can we get there? - We've got to get as many people vaccinated as possible. I simply cannot emphasise enough how important it is that people go out and get vaccinated. Vaccination means no more lockdowns, and it means freedom. It means freedom to travel and to connect to the rest of the world. The first target should be 70-75%, which means we can minimise the use of lockdowns, make them more regional, if we have to use them. That's what the modelling shows. We've got to get there as quickly as possible. Frankly, if we'd been at that target in April-May early this year, we wouldn't be in lockdown right now, and that's a failure by the government to make sure we didn't get there. And then in terms of 90% we think we should be heading towards that to reconnect to the world. - David Seymour, is 90% achievable? - Well, I think the government's actually thrown the vaccine rollout into chaos. Just two weeks ago, Chris Hipkins and the Prime Minister said the vaccine programme will be complete when everybody's had an opportunity. They now say it's needed to get to 90% So here's the question ` what happens if everyone's had an opportunity, but only 89% of people have taken it? Do we allow 11% of New Zealanders to hold the rest of the country ran` random? Ransom? Uh, what we should be doing is saying we are going to give everybody the opportunity that is going to take probably until about late November. At that point, everybody's had a chance and we're going to start safely reconnecting with the rest of the world. If you set a target and then rely on everybody to meet it, and then we actually may find ourselves indefinitely reliant on lockdowns and border closures, which are completely unsustainable. - And do you agree with that, Chris, that there needs to be a deadline regardless of whether we hit a target, that we need to start opening the country up? - Well, we've got enough Pfizer vaccine now in the country for everyone to have an opportunity, actually, right now. Doesn't have to be before the end of the year. Everyone can go and get one right now and I encourage people to do so. - But if people don't, if we don't hit the 90% target, do we start opening up regardless? - I would like us to` I would like us to get to around 85% before we start to open up. But every extra person beyond around 85% makes us safer as a country and safer as a community. - 70 to 80% vaccination could still lead to thousands of deaths. David Seymour How many deaths are you willing to accept to restart the economy? - Well, 30,000 people die in New Zealand every year. The truth is that we cannot prevent all deaths. The important question here is how much more are we prepared to spend to prevent a COVID death than deaths from car crashes, deaths from cancer? Because at the moment, the money we're spending on COVID, we can't spend on preventing those other kinds of deaths. - I put to you, though, that the Denmark example, roughly the same population as New Zealand, 80% vaccinated. Their opening up at the current rate would still see 1000 deaths a year, so twice the number of New Zealanders that we'd lose the flu every single year. 83 people dying a month from COVID-19. Could you stomach that? -Well, the question is, are we going to borrow $140 billion and put that on to future generations? Are we going to keep printing money and inflate home ownership beyond the reach of a future generation? Are we going to have people displaced from hospital because we don't have the capacity and the resources to afford new cancer drugs? You've got to ask all those questions at the same time. - How many COVID-19 deaths a year are you willing to put up with to be able to open the country again? - Well, nobody, nobody wants anyone to die of COVID-19. - It's gonna be the reality. - Well, it's gonna be the reality, whoever's in charge and whenever it happens. - Do you think that there should be no access to pubs, clubs, cinemas, museums, sports events, Shihad concerts unless you have a vaccine first? - Oh, Shihad concert's going a bit far. (LAUGHS) - I mean, I don't think the government should do that. I think that would be inimical to free choice for New Zealanders. But I think what you will find is there will be concert promoters who set that as a rule, and I would support them doing so. There will be pubs who say, actually, you can't come in unless you're double vaccinated, and I would support pubs right to do that, because they'll be looking after the welfare of their` firstly, their staff, but also the people who choose to drink or socialise. I think you will find that happening. That's what's happening around the world. It's going to have to come to in New Zealand. - And I know you'll agree with that, David, based on` - Well, no. Let me make the point better, though. There's a very good incentive to be vaccinated. You're less likely to go to hospital, you're less likely to end up on a ventilator and you're less likely to die if you're infected with COVID-19. No other amounts of missing out on Shihad concerts is going to be a stronger insensitive` incentive than not dying, and that is the reason people should get vaccinated. What about businesses? - So should we not open up until the Maori vaccination rates are the same as the pakeha vaccination rates? - Well, I think we should apply the same principle that everybody should have the opportunity to be vaccinated. And I would argue that in some remote areas, and for people who may not have the means to transport themselves, we haven't given that opportunity. That's why the government needs to be better at partnering with different organisations, whether it's GP's, pharmacies, businesses, marae, whatever it needs to actually get more mobile. But these vaccination buses` I mean, what an obvious idea that has only been adopted nearly five weeks into an outbreak. It's simply not good enough. They took the longest nap in the world for 18 months, and as a result, we were not ready for this outbreak, having to result to border closures and lockdowns. - Chris, a lot of people called David Seymour racist when he tweeted the Maori vaccine priority access codes on Twitter. Did you think that was a racist move? - Well, it's not something that I would have done. I think it's imperative we get Maori vaccination rates up. - Casually and lazily, grouping people by their ethnicity is, A, ineffective, and B, divisive, and I'm very proud to stand against it. - Do you agree? - Well, I mean, I think that we should be we should be targeting Maori to make sure that they get vaccinated. It's just a simple matter of ethics and fairness for New Zealanders, and actually for all of New Zealand. - David Seymour, beneficiaries who can be vaccinated but refuse. Would you impose sanctions? - Look, no, I wouldn't. And when it comes to someone receiving a benefit, everyone should get vaccinated regardless of how you get your income, in my view. Would I introduce that as a sanction? In this instance, probably not. - Because it is something the National Party actually proposed a couple of years ago. Sanctions on beneficiaries who don't get vaccinated for measles. So would you consider that again for the COVID vaccine? - Look, it's not our current policy. I think we're a wee way down the track on that. I mean, for firstly, kids under 12 can't get vaccinated right now. - You're leaving the door open to that, given you've gone down that road before? - Yeah. Look, I think it's something that we'll consider, as and when` - Sanctions on beneficiaries? - As and when the vaccine becomes available for kids. - So we do need to wrap things up a little bit, so these next few questions, though I know you've both got impressive vocabularies, but if we could stick to a yes or no. David Seymour, do we need to accept some level of restriction, even if we hit that 90% target? Yes, no? - Yes, some level. - Chris? - Yeah, some level. - OK, and mandatory masks at any level, including Level 1, on public transport and in supermarkets? David? - No, I'm not convinced by the evidence on them right now. - Chris? - Not at Level 1, but at higher risk levels, yes. - OK. And short, home-based quarantine for vaccinated returning New Zealanders from low-risk countries, Chris? - Well, the ultimate aim is for no quarantine for double vaccinated travellers from low-risk countries, in the end. - David? - As an intermediary step, definitely, yes. - OK, great. And, Chris, the ACT party has a 19 page COVID response document` - Uh, two, actually. - They've got two and the latest one is 19 pages. When you go to the National Party website, the COVID response section is literally 306 words. There are 5-year-olds that write longer stories, is that why ACT is gaining on you guys in the polls? - Well, it's not about the length of words on a website or the number of pages` - The words are the detail of the plan. - Yeah, but we're working on a pretty comprehensive document right now, which you'll see in the next couple of weeks. - What he means is they've been reading ours already. - A lot of swapping of notes throughout this debate. Um, David Seymour. The Prime Minister called the 1PM press conference the single source of truth. Do you think that Jacinda Ardern's been dishonest during those press conferences at all? - I don't think that she's been dishonest in the sense that she's directly lied. I think the selective use of data that all us taxpayers have paid for to paint a picture favourable to the government is un-transparent and undemocratic. - Do you think Jacinda Ardern has been dishonest during those 1pm pressers? Well, here's a good question, why did she not disclose to the public that the escapee from, you know, a couple of weeks ago was out in the public domain being sought by the police that she was told at 12:20? The press conference at 1 o'clock, she sat on that information and decided not to disclose to the public. - Hasn't she heard of neighbourhood watch? - So that's a that's a yes, is it? And do you know that the Prime Minister knew at 12.20? - The Prime Minister says it's possible to go through politics without ever telling a lie. So the real question is for her. - OK, what about Ashley Bloomfield? Do you wholeheartedly trust him? - Yeah, he's a very dedicated public servant who has done a great job under enormous pressure. - David, do you trust the good doctor? - No. I think that people have measured far too much of his image in likeability and charisma, all wonderful characteristics. But he should be assessed on the quality of the government's COVID response, and time and again, we've been behind on vaccination, testing, tracing, treatment. So that's why we're locked down and locking out because we don't have any alternatives. - And I know that you are not ruling out being the Prime Minister one day. you'd quite like that job, perhaps, if that's what the voters decide. Would you quite like to be the Prime Minister one day as well? - No, I just want to serve as a senior minister in a government that changes things for New Zealand and makes a difference. - OK, well, we can see that you both work very well together. Thank you both for joining us this morning. - Thank you. - Thank you. - And we know that for some viewers, even a double pitch isn't enough, so there's a full 20 minute director's cut of that debate on Facebook and YouTube, which includes whether Chris Bishop thinks Judith Collins will be rolled next month. But up next, our political panel, with Carmen Parahi and Matthew Hooton. Plus, at home with Rawiri Waititi on the east coast. I'm joined now by our panel PR consultant Matthew Hooton and Carmen Parahi, who is the Pou Tiaki editor at Stuff. Tena korua to you both. Thanks for your time. So the question no one wants to answer is, 'What is an acceptable number of COVID deaths so we can reopen?' Matthew, why doesn't Andrew Little want to answer that one? Oh, I might have lost Matthew` - He said no minister of health is ever going to want to answer that. No minister of health's ever going to want to answer that question, as he said, so, you know, that's fair enough. But look, I think that was` that interview with Andrew Little and Tova O'Brien was probably the best we've seen by any broadcaster or any minister on this topic. It was serious and honest and forward-looking, and it's very clear now that the government has moved beyond elimination. There is now serious talk as adults about what we do once we get to 90% vaccination and beyond. And it was really good to see, you know, that happening on The Nation. - Yeah, so Andrew Little has been surprisingly open about his reopening plans. Carmen, do you think he's responding to a sense of frustration and even lockdown fatigue amongst the broader population? - Kia ora, Simon. Kia ora, Matthew. Kei aku nui, kei aku rahi. Tena koutou katoa. Kia ora, New Zealand. Ko te Wiki o te Reo Maori, korero e te Reo Maori. I had to just put that plug in there before I answer that question. - Absolutely. - No one wants to answer that question, because it means we're going to accept that there will be deaths from COVID. How many is too many? When you're Maori and you have comorbidities, higher rates of comorbidities, disproportionate issues in health. When you are non-Maori and you've got comorbidities and you're elderly, does it mean, 'OK, let's open the borders. It's OK for us to be more at risk than anyone else.' Whether we hit those vaccination rates or not, the experts, people like Dr Andrew Sporle at Auckland University, has already shown there'll be thousands of deaths. Who will they be? Will they be your grandmothers? Your aunties and uncles? Are we` Are we going to accept that? David Seymour pointed out 33,000 people die every year in Aotearoa, sadly. We've seen` We've seen that amongst our tamariki this week... not talking about vaccinations, talking about Timaru, so... - OK. - What would we accept? So he says 33,000. We're going to add on around 5000, or thousands more, to that 33,000 That will be COVID deaths. That's with high vaccination rates. - So, but the question of equity, so Andrew Little was saying that, you know, they want equity in terms of healthcare for all ethnicities, all races. First to you, Carmen. Do you think that any opening up should be postponed until there was equity in terms of vaccination rates across everybody? - People don't get what equity means. Equity means you've got to do more for other groups of people than the general population. David Seymour was talking about 12` 11% of the population. So who's he talking about? Was he talking about Maori? If he is, he's got to get his numbers correct. It's 16%. 16% of the population. It's not just Maori we're talking about. You have to` You've got to really seriously think about whether we want to open it. But at the same time, we actually have to open it up. Equity means that you've got to do more for the groups of people that are disproportionately behind everybody else. Those groups don't just include Maori, they include small business owners. They include elderly. There's all these different types of groups that we have to consider. We just got to stop considering everybody, like, who are in the age groups that we're all in. - Matthew? - I think that's right. - Yep. - I think that's right. And I think that Ashley Bloomfield has made that point. And I don't think anyone would disagree that when we talk 90% it's not a single measure. You would need to make sure that you have, you know, very high rates amongst all demographics. And that's why, you know, there needs to be this massive focus, as there is, on South Auckland in particular, both because of its ethnic makeup, its socioeconomic status and its proximity to Auckland Airport. And it is good to see that. And I think one of the things that Andrew Little is going to have to confront linked to his health reforms is` and I` I can see the arguments for the health reforms, seems stupid this 24, or whatever, district health boards, but what we're seeing through this crisis is that centralisation fails. And almost anything the Wellington bureaucracy has done through this COVID issue has been a fiasco. Whether it's PPE, saliva testing, track and trace, the MIQ system, remembering to put the order in for vaccines. Two things have worked through this. One has been, obviously, the Prime Minister's outstanding rhetorical leadership. And I'm not` I'm not mocking that by calling it rhetorical. Leaders lead with words, and she has done a magnificent job on that. - Yep. - But the other thing that has worked is localism. And I see up here in Auckland, the things that have worked, including in South Auckland, have been led by the private sector, or by Auckland health authorities. You think of the drive thru vaccination centre out at the airport. That was not something Wellington initiated. Wellington was against drive thru. We think of the magnificent work that David Seymour has inadvertently highlighted by the Waipareira Trust. Now it is going to be absolutely crucial that Andrew Little doesn't, with his health reforms, take all the wrong lessons from this and crowd out that local response, because we've never se` and he's talking about home care. ` So that's` Yeah. - No, and this is` this is on his agenda for the next couple of months. And if he thinks that he's going to run a 'live with it' ` which does, to some extent, mean 'die with it' ` strategy for COVID, with people at home, in local hospitals. And he thinks Ministry of Health Wellington bureaucrats are going to succeed in that. He is wrong. - OK. (CHUCKLES) - So it's` He has to look at this` these issues together ` his health reforms and the COVID response. - I just` I just wanted to move on to another. You talked about, Matthew Hooton, just then about rhetorical` the rhetoric from the podium. We've` We've also got a focus on Judith Collins at the moment, as well. Carmen, I mean, from your perspective, is Judith Collins delivering for Maori, or should there be somebody else in that position? - I'll just touch on something Matthew said, because we are talking about equity, right. So, 25% of the Maori pop` 25% of the Maori population are under 12. Equity means that you are going to have to seriously consider vaccinating under-12-year-olds, Maori under-12-year-olds, so we can capture the Maori population. 25%'s a massive population. Part of the issue, and we've talked about this, is Andrew Little saying, 'DHB is doing great job.' But the DHB is doing a great job. So is Whanau Ora into the churches. They've all been heavily funded. The problem, that Maori health providers are saying, in primary healthcare is that the DHB's holding the purse strings. They're not getting the resources they need. What Matthew said is right. It's the small health providers, and the primary healthcare across the country, not just at Auckland, that are rolling out, that have been getting out of their buses and their caravans, repurposing caravans so that they can go and do this. They're making people... - Absolutely. - People are having to walk miles just to get somewhere to get a vaccination. People are trying to get vaccinations, but there are barriers, and the barriers are because of the centralised government response. We now get to the opposition. Their job is to provide solutions for the government. The government does not have all the answers for us. The opposition needs to sort themselves out, not just talking about National, I'm talking about ACT, I'm talking about Maori Party and the Greens. Those groups need to sort it` come up with some really good solutions for us. You don't just hammer someone about an escapee. You don't just hammer someone and say, 'Oh, here is the Maori` Here's the Maori code. 'Oh, they're getting special treatment.' They're not getting special treatment. He` That was disinformation from Seymour. - OK. - This is the point` - So what they do is they` there's all these high jinks going on, instead of providing bloody good solutions for New Zealanders. - (CHUCKLES) All right. We're gonna` (INDISTINCT OVERLAPPING CHATTER) Hang` Hang on. You're both passionate about this, but I'm going to have to interrupt both of you. We're going` We'll probably address the other opposition topics in our Sunday panel. But for the moment, we'll just have to leave it there for the moment. Thank you so much for your time. Matthew Hooton and Carmen Parahi. OK, e whai ake nei, from his home in Whangaparaoa, near East Cape, Maori Party co-leader, Rawiri Waititi shares his backstory. Plus the story of a government agency that won't spell Maori names correctly, despite having taken a Maori name for itself. In less than a year, he's rewritten the dress code, challenged the speaker with a haka, and made a habit of being kicked out of the House. But the House is far from home for Te Pati Maori's Rawiri Waititi. Conor Whitten went to meet him near the East Cape, where our self-described troublemaker was born. - So I grew up in a place called Whangaparaoa, named by one of our ancestors, Pou-ma-tangatanga, who named it after a Whangaparaoa he was from in Hawaiki. Captain Cook also came through here and gave it a name called Cape Runaway. The story is Captain Cook came here and ended up in an altercation out there on the sea, and he said many of our people turned around on their waka and ran away, as he puts it. But in our history, it's that he he's the one that ran away. That's where I grew up. On this marae. I'm the eldest of four siblings. My father was a teacher, also a farmer, and my mother ensured that we had a, you know, that we had a warm, safe home. You know, you rode horses; you spent a lot of time at the beach; long time, long days of the river. I could tell you all the diving spots around here, but I won't. (LAUGHS) You know, your life was` is this community, is the land. So you're not from the land, you're of the land. You don't speak te reo, you are te reo. This is my great-great grandmother. She's wearing a facial moko ` moko kauae. On the far wall there I've got my other... my great-great grandmother on my father's side is also up there with moko. Up on the top, Te Haimona. He also wore... But he was done by the old traditional way. I'm the first of our Waititi line to wear moko since that tipuna. So it's five generations. (SPEAKS TE REO) Hello! Kia ora, Auntie! - Kia ora! Kei te pehea koe? - Kei te pai. I think I was a bit of a` a hi anga, which is a bit of a mischief or a bit of a play-up fella, when I was at school. There's an aunt here. Her boy and I used to play up a little bit, and go off and get the` bit of a... bit of a discipline. And one time we thought we might go and burn that stick, and we put it into` (CHUCKLES) we put it into the incinerator with all our rubbish that afternoon and we went to burn it. And we thought, 'Well, te wa, that's this. We fixed that up.' And so we came the next day. The principal was standing there with the stick. It was all charred black, but it didn't burn. It just stayed stick-y. (LAUGHS) Being in school in the 80s, I think, was a fabulous time. (GASPS) I remember that book. 'Not only did you have the class` classroom work, but, you know, 'the school involved teaching us how to go to white-baiting, teaching us how to eel,' teaching us how to fish, teaching us how to cook, teaching us how to look after each other. There was no high school college here then, and we're all shipped off to town. Oh, that was a huge transition. So I went from a school that only had 30 of us in the whole school, and I went to a school that had 1200 kids, and there was probably 30-plus of us in a classroom, from all ethnicities. And so that was my first introduction to many other cultures. I went to Rutherford High School. I think the only downfall of going to Rutherford High School was that Simon Bridges also went to that school. (LAUGHS) Nah! Just having you on, Simon. Having you on. Back then, it was hard to, you know, to be proud of who you are. We had every newspaper, every news bulletin we turned on, Maori were just, you know, we were the scum of the Earth, to be quite honest. I had Maori mates, but I thought we were Pacific Islanders, because it was better to be that than to be us. And very lucky to be` to be quite honest, because Te Atatu, itself, as a community, had pulled itself together to ensure that there was that Maori world-view on things. So I met my wife actually in Te Atatu at Rutherford High School. And, so, our families, actually, we all lived on the same street. My auntie living` living in Te Atatu, right next to her was John Tamihere, that's my wife's father, and their whanau. And just up the road you had Tau Henare, and then Tuku Morgan. We're actually quite proud of that particular street, because we've had full Maori MPs come off that. It's the little street that could. (LAUGHS) Then we got married and started to have my babies and I thought, 'Jeez. Actually do I want to bring my kids up here in Auckland? 'No, I don't.' And so it was a lot of discussion and wananga between my wife and I, and we decided to come back home. Well, she's still my campaign manager ` campaign manager of doom, and, also, works in the leader's office. To have my wife by my side, in terms of this mahi, means that, you know, we're walking this journey together. My father was involved in everything, and so politics wasn't too far away from any discussion around our dinner table. Also, when I went to move with my auntie in Te Atatu, you know, she was a political beast in the south. You know, we used to get calls you know, to her home and it would be Jenny Shipley or... or Helen Clark wanting to get her advice. I'm sorry, but politics in Wellington got nothing on the politics here in this place. (LAUGHS) They can argue for an hour over te towels or sheets. I think my greatest politicians have been the ones that have come off this marae ` my aunties, my uncles, my` my` my elders, you know? To show that they can navigate through issues, but also find the best way for everybody to thrive. - Rawiri Waititi there. Stay with us. We're back after the break. ('NEWSHUB NATION' THEME MUSIC) Hoki mai ano. Welcome back. Sean Rahui's te reo journey led him to discover his family's last name has been spelled incorrectly for years. He's been on a mission to get it corrected, and has come up against a government agency that's taken a Maori name for itself but doesn't allow Maori to spell theirs correctly. Anna Bracewell-Worrall has this report. Ko Sean Rahui ahau toku ingoa. Sean Rahui didn't learn te reo at school. It wasn't an option. He started learning as an adult, leading him to a discovery about his own name. - I realised as I was learning te reo Maori that the word 'Rahui' without a macron doesn't actually exist in and te reo Maori, and that the correct pronunciation is 'Raahui,' and that requires the Macron. - His name had been spelt incorrectly his entire life, from his birth certificate to his bank account, a mistake that had stripped the meaning from his name for generations. - And I knew when I saw that that it was my responsibility to try and restore the mana of my name, to recognise my tipuna and return that to the name that I carry. - He doesn't know how it was lost, but knows there will be others in the same situation. - I suppose it's a result of that big old beast, colonisation. I don't think there was ever the capability in early days to add Macron's to official records. - Te reo Maori advocate Stacey Morrison gets where he's coming from. - Rahui without the Macron, so 'rahui' as opposed to 'raahui,' isn't a word. It doesn't mean anything. So I can see why that feels, actually, not very nice. - A rahui, with that long 'A', means restriction or protection. Macrons matter. so it can really significantly change the meaning of words - For instance, tatari, means to wait, whereas taatari, with a long 'A' means to sift, or sieve something. - So Sean Rahui went to the Department of Internal Affairs to get his birth certificate corrected. - I got a response that said that I would have to pay for an official name change that costs $170. Disappointed, he posted about it on Facebook. - Quite quickly, they came round and agreed to provide me with a amended birth certificate with a Macron. But I suppose the wero for them is I'm one person, and while I appreciate the efforts they made for me, there's really a system-wide issue here. - Seeing that new birth certificate was powerful. Cos it restores the mana of my name, and recognises who I am and where I've come from, which is part of being Maori. - Birth certificate sorted, he moved on to other departments. The IRD now addresses some correctly, but an attempt to fix his driver's licence wasn't so successful. The response from Waka Kotahi was quite disappointing. They have indicated that it's not possible to add the macron to my driver's licence. - That's despite Waka Kotahi adopting its Maori name in 2019. It was previously NZTA. - It's not good enough just to adopt a Maori name. It has to be more systemic than that. And if they can't change the names of the driver's licences to reflect the real Maori names of the drivers of Aotearoa New Zealand, it's not good enough Like Waka Kotahi, Kiwibank system couldn't add his Macron. - But they have advised that there is no process for being able to actually add macrons to my name. - It's a little bit odd that an official language of New Zealand isn't able to be correctly represented a written on an official document. So surely this is an oversight, and it's a fairly easy one to fix. - Now, one department is fixing it. The Department of Internal Affairs told Newshub Nation because of concerns raised by Sean Rahui, it's reviewed its processes, and it won't be charging people for adding missing macron's. As for Kiwibank, it says it's working on it. - Ka rawe te mahi, Te Tari Taiwhenua, me haere atu, Waka Kotahi. - It may be Te Wiki o Te Reo Maori, Maori language week, but for this story about correcting historic te reo wrongs, ministers Kelvin Davis and Willie Jackson refused to be interviewed. Transport Minister Michael Wood has told Waka Kotahi that whenever their system is next updated, Macron must be added. That could take five years. - Anna Bracewell-Worrall with that report. And now we're back with our panel, Carmen Parahi and Matthew Hooton. Let's talk leaders, Judith and Rawiri. First to Judith, Matthew, two dire polls for National, one from their own pollster. The writing on the wall for Judith Collins? - Well, they don't have a pollster at the moment because they can't afford it, so it's their former pollster, in a way. Absolutely disastrous, as you say. I think the worst aspects are how terribly they're doing. amongst people under 40. I think it's about 15%, which is just atrocious, worse amongst women under 40, it's 3.5% It's the end of the road. And they're not even doing well in the 60-plus, where they've been trumped by Labour. So terrible problems. Judith Collins, I don't think is a viable candidate for Prime Minister, even amongst National Party leaders` Sorry, National Party voters. David Seymour, is the preferred followed by Collins, followed by Jacinda Ardern, followed... - Right. Well, we just lost Matthew there briefly. So` - It's the worst numbers we've seen. - OK. Carmen, if not Collins, then who? - Well, that's the question. Who would step up and who can we imagine would lead the opposition, the largest opposition at the moment? You've got Chris Bishop, you've got the other Chris Luxon, who everybody knows` - Simon Bridges? What about Simon Bridges? - Aw, are you asking me that just because I'm Maori? - (LAUGHS) - Simon Bridges. - Well, I think there's data on that. - (LAUGHS) - I think there's data on that. - But you've got Nicola Willis as well, though Nicola and Chris Bishop are a bit more moderate than some of the others. But you need` We've already talked about this. You need strong opposition and you need a strong centre opposition. You need a large group, a large opposition that will be able to cater for all needs, rather than some of the minority parties that are a little bit extreme in their politics, and the way they're thinking. So, Chris Luxon` - Just quickly go through the numbers on` - Yeah, well, Chris Luxon, he's interesting. Everyone that knows him as the Air New Zealand guy. He's got a really interesting portfolio, so he's got Local Government and Iwi Economy. And so what I thought was interesting, though, was his response to having the Iwi development portfolio. It could be his golden ticket, but he's a bit clueless about it. He said iwi businesses need to go mainstream. Fail! They're already mainstream, in 2018, the Maori Economy, according to BERL, was $68 billion dollars. We have money, resources authority and regional centres, and in the hearts of Tamaki Makaurau, Wellington, Christchurch, Hamilton. You'd be foolish not to see the big picture. - So, but the answer to the question is` The answer to the question ` He can't see that. - The answer to the question is we don't know. We don't know at the moment. - That's the problem. Who? - From the Taxpayer Union polling, the problem national has is that Judith Collins is negative 40 in terms of her favourability. That's not as bad as Simon Bridges when he was rolled, he was negative 60, he's now negative 30. Luxon is negative 20. Seymour is negative 10. In contrast, Ardern is plus 30. So you know someone, someone like Simon Bridges is 60 points behind Jacinda Ardern. - So who would want to do it again? - He's not viable as a leader with those numbers. - All right, can I just quickly` - If they keep going the way National's going, do they then become the prop for ACT? Because ACT will continue to take National supporters. - It seems that way. And then Seymour becomes the Prime Minister. So this is why you need National and Labour, whenever they're in opposition, so sort themselves out. - So one quick prediction before we go Matthew Hooton, when will we see this happen? When will we see a roll happen? - Well, we're mad, so who knows? But my advice to them ` and I was involved in the fiasco last year, so if they would just take some advice from someone who's been there and made mistakes, wait at least a year. The election is two years away. We don't know what world we're going to be in in a year's time. We could be at war with China for all we know, with the new alliance. So what they need` We could be` Everybody could be worried about the schools. - All right. - Who knows, they choose a leader for 2023, not for 2020. - All right. I'm going to have to leave it there. Thank you so much for your time, Matthew Hooton and Carmen Parahi. And that is all from us for now. Nga mihi nui, thank you so much for watching, and we'll see you again next weekend. Captions by Jade Fernandes and John Gibbs. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021