Northland joins Waikato in Level 3, so what role did gangs and low vaccination rates have in spreading Delta? He's becoming a loud critic of the COVID response ` Winston Peters joins us live. And too slow to test ` why has the government been reluctant to roll out new technology? Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021 Tena tatou katoa. I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. Ko nga pitopito korero i te whare paremata ` in political news this week ` Northland has moved to Level 3 until midnight Tuesday after a COVID-positive case travelled extensively around the region. The woman is now in managed isolation, but health authorities say she is being uncooperative with contact tracers. Cabinet will review alert levels on Monday. A man in his 50s died of COVID-19 this week ` the 28th to die New Zealand since the pandemic began. There are now 406 active cases of COVID-19 in the community, including 44 announced Friday. 25 cases are in hospital. And the government has announced a sweeping review of electoral law and will consider changes to the voting age, term limits and political funding. The review aims to report back ahead of Election 2026, with some smaller changes in place for 2023. So, one uncooperative case and Northland goes to Level 3. The woman apparently travelled extensively and got through the Auckland border on a fake document. With vaccination rates low in the North, the government decided to lock down. What a week it's been. COVID Response Minister Chris Hipkins wasn't available this morning, but for more on the regional impact, I'm joined now by Far North District Mayor John Carter. Thanks for your time this morning, John. You're waking up in Level 3; how's the community feeling? - Oh, Simon, hugely disappointed, frustrated, furious, angry... All those reactions, of course, which you'd expect. Northlanders have done their best to work to make sure that we keep the disease at bay, and then we have this irresponsible person ` and whoever, wherever the background is ` that comes and destroys what` all we've worked for over the last couple of months. It's frustrating as all hell. - Have you been told what the background to this case is? - Not officially, yet, no. We're` There's all sorts of speculation. Some of it may be correct ` don't know yet ` but, um, it's just disappointing that we have these sorts of people and that this sort of thing happens in our community. - Yes, I mean` - Everyone up north has tried to do their best, and it's just frustrating. - OK. I mean, this person is uncooperative... - Yeah. - ...and police can't find her travel companion. - Yeah, I` - So is this a worst-case scenario for Northland? I mean, we've got` - Oh, it absolutely is, Simon. I` Just` It's` These sorts of people, quite honestly, we don't need them in our society, and in Northland, we rally against them. It's just not acceptable, quite honestly. They're putting the lives of all our people at risk, those who are vacc` even those who are vaccinated, and we just don't need it, and we don't want it. - Yeah, you talk about risk there. What is the risk... - Well` - ...if Delta takes hold in the North? - Well, the risk is, of course, that then it starts transferring through the community and our whanau, our uncles, aunts, granddaughters are all at risk. But it's also, from` And it puts pressure on from a mental aspect, and it causes problems with our businesses, and it's just ongoing, and it's devastating. As I say, we've worked hard... - Yeah. - ...to do our best, all of us together, and now we have some bloody idiot like this come and bugger it up for us. - So` So, finally, what is your quick message to the people in Northland? - That` So, three things, very quickly ` get tested if you've got anything at all that looks remotely like COVID, please go and get vaccinated as quickly as you can, and in the meantime, look after your friends and your neighbours. If you can't do it for yourself, go and put` wear your masks and go and get vaccinated for your friends and your grandmas and grandads. - OK. Far North District Mayor John Carter, Thank you very much for your time this morning. - Thank you very much. - OK. Tena koe. He's becoming a louder and louder critic of the way the government's handling the COVID response, and now Delta has been touring through his patch up north. Former Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters joins me now from Whananaki. So you're saying that they knew earlier, and you're questioning why the public wasn't told earlier? Is that correct? - Precisely. I mean` And Northland in particular. Here we are, all the way to Cape Reinga, in lockdown now ` lockdown three ` and this will go on for months. And this was all predictable. I'm not saying something for the first time now; I'm` I've said it in my posts in recent times because I was alarmed at the lack of transparency and the lack of basic honesty in terms of information to the public. No team can play a game without the team knowing what the game rules are. - This targeted approach and these exemptions to people like Sonny Fatu from the Mongrel Mob, Waikato Kingdom chapter, they are` that's the wrong approach? - No, look, the reality is` and I don't know if you recall this, but in April this year, the Pasifika and Maori advisers to the government walked out on that team because they said they weren't listening. I mean, the reality is from the first cabinet meeting ` and I can recall it very clearly ` we said that people over 65, Maori and Pasifika in particular, had to be the three categories to prioritise as the first people to get vaccinated. - Mm. - It did not happen. And when they walked out in April, they were saying, 'You're not listening.' How come we can have, you know, 98% rollout rates in Niue and 98% rollouts in the Cook Islands and elsewhere ` they're going Dam Busters on it right now ` - Yep? - and yet here we're saying, 'Oh, we've got cultural problems.' - Well, as` - No, it's the approach. - As yesterday` - And they weren't listening. - As of yesterday, the Associate Minister for Health, Peeni Henare, in terms of Maori, was boasting that Maori vaccination rates actually reached a record. So their approach is working now. - Well, if it is a record, it's a very low record. But it is a record in terms of what we weren't doing. The fact is had we got the vaccines when they were available to us ` and that's another story ` when we were told about them being made available to us by the end of last year... This information came to us on the 30th of June last year, and it was shown to Cabinet, I can tell you. If we'd have done that, then long before Delta ever got here, we'd have the vaccination rates to the safety measures that we're talking about. - OK. So, I mean, you have been critical about that and are critical about the rollout in terms of the vaccine. You've also been slamming the government over dragging its feet on things like saliva testing. But there` And as of yesterday, there was a report by Professor David Murdoch saying that had been too slow, too conservative. Do you feel vindicated by that? - Well, Mr... Mr Murdoch's statement was an understatement ` not just slow, but it's inexplicable. You see, last December, there was a validated and accredited saliva testing system that was made available to this government in March. Instead, they chose one not validated, not accredited, and they cannot explain why. Why did one company get $60m for an unvalidated, unaccredited system when one was made available? And here's the paradox here. The paradox is (CHUCKLES) that now, in a bill before Parliament, the company that had the system ` less invasive and far more easy to administer ` is facing having their product commandeered by government like in some sort of sort of wartime commandeering programme. - OK. - If you can follow what I'm saying here. - Yes, but can I also ask ` has the Auditor`? I mean, you've asked the Auditor-General to investigate the awarding of that particular contract to APHG. Has` - I tell you what, Simon` - Has the Auditor-General responded? - I tell you what, Simon` I-I-I... Well, he has got my information, and no doubt he's investigating it. But when I saw what had happened and knowing the procurement rules for ministers and for government, I thought, 'This cannot possibly be. 'This has got to be a serious breach.' And that's why I wrote to him. And I'm still waiting for the government's explanation ` why did you choose one over the other when it never had the accreditation... - OK` - ...and validation required? - OK. I understand your position on that. Look, the government is trying to give a little bit of life back to Aucklanders with a new approach to Level Three, in its stepped phase. OK? There has been confusion about this. I mean, Professor Michael Baker has called this week a disaster. How would you characterise it? - Well, look, it's sad that we're actually having this conversation, because it was avoidable. That's the point. And what's happening in Auckland is really so sad for so many businesses. Businesses been around for 30, 40 years ` everything on the line, even their houses; and all those thousands of workers and people who have been so displaced, so to speak ` it's a tragedy that was avoidable. And, look, the famous president of the United States Roosevelt said, 'Look, we'll make some mistakes, but we'll keep on trying.' - Mm. - Now, when you make mistakes, you should own up to them so people understand, but what we've had here is double talk, U-turns and spin all the time, and that's very sad for the country. - I see that` I mean, Mr Peters, you are being a lot more socially active on, well, social media, you're putting out press releases ` I'd say, clearly, that you have your eye on 2023 with New Zealand First. Whether that's a case of you wanting to hold people accountable... Can you tell us what your plans are for New Zealand First heading forward? - Look, I was quietly getting on with my life, but I was observing events and saying, 'This cannot be true, from what I know. 'It simply is not a fact what I'm hearing at 1 o'clock.' And so that's why I went on to social media. I mean, that's why I said on the 15th of August, 'The Delta variant's here right now.' How come some of the experts didn't know that? And the reality is if you decide to not consult wide enough and consult with business and experts wide enough, you'll get that sort of inner decision-making, as though, sort of, 'It's my car, my rules.' And that's tragic. I'm not interested so much in what your object of your question is, but I just thought somebody needed to say something who knew and was prepared to put his reputation on the line as to what really went on. - OK. And now we have Delta almost, perhaps, on your doorstep. Stay safe up there. Thank you very much for your time this morning, Winston Peters. - CHUCKLES: Thank you very much. - All right. If you've got a news tip, please get in touch ` we're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. E whai ake nei ` why are we too slow to adopt new COVID tests? But first ` how do you convince the hard-to-reach to get the jab? but it's the hard to reach communities that are holding back the overall rate. Maori and rural communities are lagging, so the prime minister is headed into the provinces to convince the hesitant, but some are blaming gangs for spreading Delta. - The roadmap to recovery in full swing. - There are still about 840,000 eligible Kiwis, about 20%, who haven't had a single dose. - The vaccine is a ticket to freedom. - Quite a large number of gang members in this outbreak? - Yes. - But health authorities won't say exactly how many have tested positive. - Just working the vaccine line today. (LAUGHS) - Getting it done for the whanau. - Make sure your neighbourhoods and your community is getting the highest rates of vaccination that you possibly can. - And with Delta spreading south, the border is being bolstered. - Northlanders are being asked to stay home from midnight tonight after confirmation of a COVID community case in the region. - We have only one defence, and that's vaccination. - All right, so how do you reach the hard to reach? Dr Rawiri Jansen is part of the Maori Pandemic Response Group ` Te Ropu Whakakaupapa Uruta. He's been travelling around the country providing advice to the hesitant and has agreed to take part in a Mongrel Mob at Waikato Kingdom vaccination event next week. Tena koe, Doctor, thanks for your time this morning. First to Northland ` Delta's been travelling through Northland. What risk does that pose? - Well, Delta will be a very serious threat for Northland. Principally, I think, for the least vaccinated population, the indigenous population of Aotearoa New Zealand, Maori people, and I think we've got to recognise that Delta is the threat. I think we should also be really careful to make it clear that the issue here is the virus and we shouldn't be just going all outrageous and upset and all the rest of it. If I had one more message, it would be that anybody in Northland, get vaccinated at your earliest opportunity. - OK, so you just mentioned about sort of the public outrage about how things are possibly being transmitted. So let's talk about that, because next week you'll be amongst the Mongrel Mob advising on vaccines. Why is it important for you to do that? - Well, they reached out and said they would like to have a question and answer session and invited me to be with them and talk through the issues and talk about COVID and talk about the vaccine. And you know, that's an important thing for general practitioners like myself to do. Health professionals all around the country are doing that. That's very ordinary business for us. - So no matter who you asked you, you are happy to provide that advice, even if you're possibly associating with criminals. - Yeah. Oh, look, our enemy is the virus, isn't it? Let's be a team of five million and support everybody that we can so that we get the best vaccination programme possible. That's the job. - How do you convince a gang member who traditionally has been taking a role outside of society's mainstream, OK, how do you convince them to accept the mainstream message of` to get vaccinated? - Yeah, I think you can let go of it being all about gangs. It's actually about people, right? Let's think about people who may have been exposed to being over-policed or under-housed. This is a part of our community that we haven't looked after very well for a very long time. They're going to be hesitant about any official source. So number one, you've got to build a relationship, you've got to be trustworthy so that you can be trusted. I think that's really important. And then you've got to listen. I think you've got to do a good job of listening to what their concerns are, what their issues are, what have they been hearing? What do they want to know about? Answer their questions. It's really important everybody should have that opportunity to have their questions answered. - OK, so this week, the government has signalled that it's going from elimination to suppression for Delta. In your opinion, what does that mean for Maori? - We're in harm's way. We are literally in harm's way. Delta outbreak will travel through our communities. Our only protection left is to be safe in our household bubbles, be safe in our communities, get vaccinated. - Right. The government, as of Friday, is boasting about record Maori vaccination rates, and you've got the Prime Minister out in the provinces, Peeni Henare boasting about vaccination rates. Have they actually got the message now? - Yeah. Finally, we're in line to get vaccinated now, and vaccine acceptance is surging. I've been saying it for months. There is no problem with Maori and vaccine acceptance, we've been accepting vaccines for a long time. You know, at the clinics that I've worked at, we've had 95% of childhood immunisations done on time. So it's a matter of getting the vaccine to our people. It's happening now. It's surging. Absolutely, we can get this done. We need three or four more weeks to catch up to the mainstream. But come on, give us the resources. We've got to get this done. - So given that` if you're arguing that Maori need three or four weeks to catch up to the mainstream vaccination rates, what do you make of the fact that, you know, it's gone to suppression, right? Level 3 with steps in Auckland. And now it's seeping out into the Waikato, and it may be seeping out into Northland? - Yeah, the virus will get underneath the fences or on top of the fences or through the gate. Absolutely. And we're seeing that continuously now through Waikato, all down South Waikato. I mean, everywhere should be absolutely on edge about this, whether you're in Taranaki or in the Bay of Plenty or up north. We all need to be absolutely vigilant about the potential for the virus to spread in our community. And everybody get vaccinated at your earliest opportunity. - Look, you quit the Immunisation Advisory Group because you believed your voice was not being heard, and I understand you were also blocked by Labour from presenting to a health select committee recently. Is that right? - No, I haven't been blocked. - OK. - No. - All right. But you did` - But I did leave the Immunisation Advisory Group because the science was not being followed. The science said very clearly that Maori are at risk from age 44 in an equivalent way to a 65-year-old Pakeha man. That's our age group that we need to worry about. We should have been prioritised in the vaccine rollout and we weren't. So for me, I considered that, and I said it at the time ` that's a fatal flaw. It will literally be fatal. And we are seeing that come to pass. - Right. OK, so if you... the government doesn't listen and say you're not going to get the extra three or four weeks. I guess you're saying that's a dire prediction, isn't it? - Yeah, that's catastrophic for our community. Absolutely. - If you'd had a Maori health authority in place, as is going to be set up in the future, do you think anything would have been played out differently? - I think a lot of things would have played out differently. Absolutely it would've. We would have had Maori expertise at the centre of what was being planned and how it was being rolled out, we would have had a very different outcome. Absolutely. No doubt about it. - All right. So going forward, from your opinion, to keep Maori safe or to keep deaths from happening, should New Zealand's borders remain closed until Maori reach the same vaccination rates as the rest of the population, say, 90%? - New Zealand's borders should stay closed until Maori are properly protected. But I'm not comparing it to the Pakeha rate ` I'm just saying until Maori are properly protected, our borders should stay closed. That's a fundamental right. - And what does properly protected look like in your opinion? - In my opinion, it's 95% vaccinated or better. I want to see the 5 to 11 year olds included in the eligible population. That's just a matter of weeks away before we get approval for that, and it's a really important part of our community because we have a much younger age structure in our population. - Dr Rawiri Jansen, thank you so much for your time. Tena koe. - Kia ora. - E whai ake nei ` we dissect the week's political news with our panel. But first, the government finally moves on saliva testing, but Professor David Murdoch says it's been too slow. He joins us live. The government is in talks with businesses about expanding rapid antigen COVID testing ` there are already pilots underway in hospitals ` but 'too slow, too conservative, not innovative enough', says a report this week done by the COVID-19 Technical Advisory Group. Chair Professor David Murdoch joins me now. Thank you for your time this morning, Professor. Look, you turned this report around in just 17 days. I was wondering why you were given such a short time frame. - Well, the panel itself have only been together about one` between one and two months, so this was the first task we were asked to undertake. And I guess with regard to planning the government's undertaking, this was a key piece that was` And probably that was part of the reason we had such a short turnaround. - Right. OK, so the government's wanting to get ahead and wanting to get advice. You've given the advice and you've given your opinion ` too slow on adapting both saliva testing and rapid antigen testing. What do you put that down to? What did you find? - Well, I think the first thing to say, Simon, is actually, one of the main findings was that we have some very good labs in the country; so obviously this sort of review focuses on areas of improvement, but actually, our labs are in really good shape. We have, you know, top-quality labs, world-class labs in this country, and they've done very, very well during the pandemic. - Mm. - The other main findings that we found were that actu` you know, the adoption of new innovations, new tests, was probably a bit slow; and in terms of planning for future innovations, new tests, new testing approaches, it probably needs more planning in that space. And also the connection with innovations in the community ` the business community, Maori, Pacific, rural and others as well. - OK. And so` - So, specifically, you mentioned` - Yep, go ahead. Go ahead. - Sorry, Simon. - Please go ahead. - I was just saying you specifically mentioned saliva testing and the antigen testing, and I think certainly the saliva testing, that process has been too slow. I think` Our comments around the rapid antigen testing were that preparation for the use of these tests were far too slow, because we've been knowing that it's coming for quite a while. - Well, that's right. How far behind are we as a country? And if you look abroad ` I mean, places like UK or the US or Australia, how far ahead are they in terms of adopting these new technologies? - Well, it's difficult to compare, Simon, because, of course, we've had a different strategy, which actually up till now has held us in pretty good stead. So we have naturally focused on the best test. The elimination strategy had a zero tolerance for new cases; we needed to identify every new case, so we needed the best test, which is PCR. No question about that. And I think that` I think our labs have done very well. So, yes, we` To have the option for saliva testing` And it's useful to remind people that actually, saliva testing is just another sample type for the PCR test. It's not actually a rapid test, it's not a test in itself; it's just the sample is different. And for people, that means a more convenient sample` or some people find it more convenient to collect rather than a nasal pharyngeal sample. So it would be nice to have that option. But, you know, up until now, current testing has held us in good stead. - So, is`? - So, going forward, that's been the problem. - OK. So is this all because we've held on to elimination of Delta? Has that been driving why we haven't been expanding our testing repertoire? - Oh, look, to be honest, I don't know where all the barriers have been, but I think the fact that we have been focused, quite rightly, on` or understandably, on having the best test possible, you know, that may have just shifted the focus a bit. So that can explain it. Doesn't necessarily justify it, but it certainly might explain it. - If we'd had, say, saliva or even rapid antigen tests in place before this Delta outbreak, could they have made an impact? And I'm pointing to examples like the truck drivers that went to Tauranga and Palmerston North. - It's a bit hard to say, Simon. I think some of that's already` I mean, there is actually a, um` They've introduced rapid antigen tests into Middlemore Hospital, in the emergency departments part of that, so that is actually being rolled out at the moment, and they're evaluating that. Um, possibly. I really don't know how much of an impact that would have had. - Mm. OK. But you did point to some frustration in the community about the adoption of new technologies, new tests, and there is that ` so much so that businesses are now talking to the government about importing like 170,000 swabs. But is there a risk there that if there's that frustration, people are gonna go outside the mainstream public health system? - Absolutely. And I think` And again, that was very obvious to the panel, the need to engage with groups. And business were very loud. But actually, we also said, yes, business, but also Maori, Pacific, rural and other communities ` there are opportunities there to join forces to co-design how we actually roll out the testing methods and to get innovation. Because, of course, you know, we're in a new space here, and, you know, this pandemic has really created... We have not been in this sort of situation before, so we need that innovation. And as we know, one size doesn't fit all with many aspects of the pandemic response. - Right. - And that goes for testing as well. - Yeah. Can you give us a sense of daily life if we do have these tests? For example, in the UK, they recommend an at-home rapid antigen test twice a week. Is that what we're looking at? - Yes, I think we'll` Well, I` There will need to be some work about where they're best deployed. I mean, we clearly need to do our best to keep a lid on outbreaks. We need to protect key vulnerable populations. We need to actually protect our border workers. So, yes, I mean, the way it's been rolled out in many places overseas, you have them repeatedly, maybe twice a week in certain populations. - Right. - But the important thing is to understand with these tests ` they're not perfect. And that's` You know, in particular, we will miss a few cases because the sensitivity of the test is less than PCR. So with this, we have to accept that there will be some cases that we miss. So it's used to complement the other testing methods. - OK. Another tool in the box, as they say ` in the toolbox. With everything that's happening... - Yes. - ...and with your experience, wide experience and knowledge, I mean, have you got any idea of the way things are going to look at Christmas time? - Yes. So, the... As I was saying to you before, the crystal ball's getting a bit worn out. I mean, the, um... (STAMMERS) really the next few weeks, I think, are critical. It's going to be hard to predict what's going to happen in December. But I think, you know, how it pans out over the next few weeks will tell us a lot about what it will look like at Christmas. - Professor David Murdoch, thank you so much for your time this morning. Right, time now for our panel. Joining me is PR consultant Ben Thomas and Maori TV political reporter Rukuwai Tipene-Allen. Tena korua. Thank you for your time this morning. Ben, first to you. I just wonder ` is the government justified in shutting Northland down just for one case? - Yeah, look, that's the basis of hard and early. At this stage, we've seen sufficient leakage out of Auckland into the Waikato, then into different kind of sprawling tendrils of the Waikato, that you want to knock this on the head as soon as possible. You know, otherwise we just have this incremental creep, and eventually, you know, the people of Invercargill are sheltered and boarded off from the rest of New Zealand, hoping to keep cafes open. - Right. Rukuwai, lagging vaccination rates up north ` could this be bad news for the Northland community? - Yeah, absolutely. And especially when we think about in the Far North District, around 50% of that population is Maori; we know that there are low Maori vaccine rates at the moment ` this could be` as Dr Rawiri mentioned, this could be catastrophic. So this` A hard and fast approach, locking it down as soon as, was the best thing that anyone could do. Especially knowing that this person had quite a number of movements around the region, it's important that we just shut it down... - Yeah. - ...knowing that our health system's going to be too stretched otherwise. - So, you referred to the person at the centre of this, who is uncooperative with contact tracers ` and maybe there is a another companion travelling with this person. Winston Peters was very fulsome this morning, Ben, about his allegations about what happened. What did you make of that? - Well, look, we know over Peter's long parliamentary career that he's always been very, very careful about defamation law, and when he's been in doubt about litigation risk, he's relied on parliamentary privilege. To come out and say that on TV shows that` you know, it seems he's pretty certain about his allegations. And if it's true, um, you know, it` (CHUCKLES) It raises a lot of questions just about the role of these organisations in spreading the virus. - Yeah. Rukuwai, I mean, you know Northland well; will they be gutted? - Absolutely. Northlanders know the vulnerabilities in their communities. No one knows Northland communities like Northlanders. And when we think about the high Maori population there, the low Maori vaccine rates and the low rates of vaccination across the whole population, this is going to be concerning. I've talked to a few of my whanau members up there who just say this is devastating, to know that someone was moving around their region and` a positive case moving around their region. This is going to be hard on them. But also the resilience of the communities in Northland ` I'm hoping that they just do the best that they can in staying isolated and getting tested. - Makes it hard for people like Dr Rawiri Jansen, who is going to attend a Mongrel Mob event next week in Ngaruawahia, Ben, doesn't it? Because, you know, he's saying, 'Play the virus, not the person,' and then an incident like this happens. - Yeah, look, it just shows that` (SIGHS) Well, look, if these allegations are true, it suggests that, you know, there's no such thing as giving an inch. And, you know, you really are stuck between a rock and a hard place. You know, there are these communities who are completely off the radar of the authorities, of health providers, who don't like dealing with the state. And, you know, that's not just criminal gangs; you know, that's also, you know, rural Maori, um... You know, groups who just don't have that same kind of relationship with the state that, you know, particularly urban` (CHUCKLES) urban, older Pakeha people do, you know, where you've seen the vaccinations really high. Look, I've been encouraged by, you know... Rawiri Jansen will obviously have a better view of this than me, the ministers` uh, Peeni Henare will have better view, but from the enquiries I've been making, you know, there is actually significant progress being made. Particularly pakeke, the older people, are really, like, leading the way, trying to get the younger group ` which is, you know, the more resistant ` into those centres. So, you know, I don't think we give up hope just yet. - No. Well, see, Rawiri Jansen was quite, um... well, pessimistic, I guess, (CHUCKLES) if Maori aren't given extra time ` three to four weeks ` to, sort of, catch up with the vaccination rates, Rukuwai. Is the government acknowledging that by putting Jacinda Ardern out in the provinces on the East Coast? - Oh, I think that there` it's going to require more than just the Prime Minister going on a... on a little roadshow and saying hello to a few communities. I think that what we're seeing is that, yes, like Rawiri Jansen said, a lot of it isn't hesitation; it's just getting the vaccine out to the communities. That's one point of it. Some cases, where there is hesitation, we have to understand that there's already a mistrust of the government. So when we're asking people to look at sources of information, it's not exactly the 1pm press conference where some of that population is gonna find that information. They're gonna go online. We know that there's a lot of disinformation, misinformation out there, and so they're going to find other sources of information. I think what's important as well is that we could take a step in showing people people that look like themselves, people who sound like themselves, who` to give a real perspective so that they can see themselves in what's actually happening and there can be some kind of relation between them and what's going on with this virus ` whether that's a Maori person who has contracted the virus who hasn't been vaccinated and a Maori person who has been vaccinated and contracted the virus; whether that's` whether we showcase those storylines to encourage people and say, 'Hey, this is the reality of what's happening.' Maybe that could be another plan of attack for the government to use to get that messaging out beyond just the Prime Minister going out to the regions. - One last quick question before we go, Ben ` has the government sort of put its hand up and said, 'Yeah, we're too slow'? That they` They've copped the criticism from Professor David Murdoch on rolling out new testing. - Yeah, look, I mean, the` (SIGHS) There's always going to be resistance to actually admitting it, but, yeah, look, on a number of fronts, we bought a lot of time with that really successful health response, through the lockdowns last year, and to a large extent, it was wasted. The vaccination programme was not ready to roll out. It was not ready to ramp up. We didn't have nearly enough people vaccinated. You know, work had barely even begun on this strategy, you know, months ago. And, you know, the fact that we're actually halfway through an outbreak before mobile vaccination clinics are deployed ` you know, yeah, the government was caught napping on a lot of fronts there. - So just` Rukuwai, do you think the government was resting on its laurels from the elimination strategy and got caught with its, um, COVID pants down? - Uh, I think yes. A` A little bit, yeah, I think that... What` I'm just gonna reiterate what Dr Rawiri said is that Maori need the time. I think Maori have been put in the back burner a little bit here, and now that they've rolled out this stepped plan, this little roadmap to get through these lockdowns, it seems like they've taken consideration of the 80% of general population and the very small amount of Maori who are vaccinated, who are going to continue to be left behind. So over that whole span of things, from the elimination strategy to this step-out period, I think that the government has failed to focus on those who need it the most. - And we'll leave it right there. Thank you very much for your time, Rukuwai Tipene-Allen and Ben Thomas. OK, e whai ake nei ` Digital Editor Finn Hogan on who's scoring political hits on the digital charts; plus, the woman who unseated National's deputy leader ` it's Backstory. Tena tatou katoa. I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. With much of the country still stuck at home in Level 3, the everyday politicking is often online only. So earlier, I spoke to digital editor Finn Hogan about how a dramatic week played out, starting with who's ahead on social media. - Well, good morning, Simon. Yes, he's back on our show and he's very much back online. It's Mr Winston Peters. He's clamouring his way back up the digital ranks, and he's doing it with quite an interestingly no-frills social media approach ` no fancy graphics, just quite salty statuses, which I must say are quite on brand for Winston Peters. - Yeah, but how does that work, Finn? Because before you said you need a mix of content. Are you just making this up as you go along? - Well, no. Never, Simon. If you'll permit me to be nerdy for a moment, the way we work out these rankings is by your overall engagement rate, which is basically all the likes, comments and shares added together. Now, that's important because that's also what Facebook is doing behind the scenes when it's determining what gets promoted up the Facebook algorithm. Now, Winston Peters posts might be boring in some senses, but he is also posting about very divisive content. You know, things like apartheid by stealth, questioning what the government knew and when, sort of flirting with that more conspiracy end of Facebook. And that's exactly the kind of content that gets rewarded by the algorithm. He's playing the game well. - So Facebook promotes Peters' more aggressive style of politics. - Yes. So I think the takeaway here is that overall on Facebook, it's a bit better to be the opposition than it is to be the government in most senses. Remember, Facebook is basically built to exploit our inherent negativity bias. We're more likely to engage with content which outrages us than content which makes us happy. And this is perfect for a party like National, which have a vested interest in trying to drum up dissatisfaction against the government. And if we look at National's numbers currently, across the board they are beating the government in every metric that we can measure. - All right. But how much of that is sort of organic, or have they just sort of started spending up large? - Well, that's sort of interesting. Almost all of it is organic. Like, there has been a little bit of money, they've spent about a grand on Facebook advertising in the past week, which isn't nothing, but it's not that much. But that's the point. They don't really need to spend money when they've had a massive couple of weeks in news, the government's messaging, particularly in the last week, has been quite muddled and so they've left themselves open to attack. National is attacking aggressively, and it's paying dividends. If we compare that to the ACT Party, ACT have spent about 10 grand in Facebook advertising over the past week, which is pretty substantial, particularly for the first year of an election cycle, and they've had some success with it. But it just goes to show that money can't buy you the kind of reach that National is currently getting for free. - OK, look, I see both the New Conservatives and the Outdoors Party are ahead of the Greens and Te Paati Maori now. - Look, I mean, it's been a continuing trend, and we saw this in 2020 ` the New Conservatives have really leaned into some aggressive anti-vax and anti-lockdown rhetoric, and now both them and the Outdoors Party are gaining traction continually. And, look, as the government toughens up their rhetoric around vaccinations, this is almost the equal and opposite reaction. The anti-vax camp is going to continually firm up their stance, and unless there's a really concerted effort on social media to combat it, I really think this is going to get worse before it gets better. - All right, just before we go, an honourable mention ` it's Jack Dorsey? - Well, look, Simon, I'm going to cheat, because this is my segment, and do two honourable mentions. And for the first honourable mention we're going to go international. Now, for context, Mark Zuckerberg has had a terrible week. Facebook ` there was a massive outage, the worst in years. A whistle-blower came forward saying that Facebook has known for years that their content was toxic to some of their users. And Zuckerberg personally lost billions in wealth when the stock tanked. He now has a pathetic $170 billion fortune, making him only the sixth richest man in the world. So your heart really does bleed for the guy. And yes, Jack Dorsey was on hand, ready to twist the knife in his misfortune. And what can I say? I just love a bit of out-of-touch billionaire banter. But in all honesty, I would like to do one true honourable mention to you, the people of Auckland, who have had a terrible, terrible few weeks, or, well, a couple of months at this point. But you've processed it in the best possible way by producing top quality memes. So honourable mention to you, Auckland, for keeping your sense of humour in a very harrowing time. Hang in there and we'll get through this. - Digital editor Finn Hogan, thanks very much. - Simon, thank you. - All right, stay with us. Up next, the woman who stole Whangarei from National ` Dr Emily Henderson shares her backstory. From Northland to Hong Kong to Cambridge and back again, Labour MP Emily Henderson took the road less travelled into politics, but when she hit it, she hit it hard, taking a National Party seat of 45 years for Labour. - How you goin'? How you going, Bella? Well, I'm a '70s kid, so I'm the eldest of six. Wellington by birth, but we came up here when I was 7 weeks, trundled up on a dark and stormy night. My parents are a lawyer and a counsellor, family therapist, and we grew up on 40 acres of scruffy manuka and gorse. Very, very rural sort of a childhood, and brothers and sisters and I would be out with the ponies playing whatever games that were going on. I spent most of my childhood, frankly, in Middle Earth. I was an early reader and Lord of The Rings was my book. Very, very family-orientated and very, very loving and caring, and very socially-orientated. So, we spent a couple of years in Hong Kong when I was very small. Dad was working in criminal legal aid over there, and so we were brought up always with a strong sense of how lucky we were, because in Hong Kong you do experience real poverty, and it wasn't a flash childhood. Mum and Dad were always incredibly conscious of the needs of other people. They're both remarkable people. Mum, as a family therapist, and Dad, holding pieces together as a family court, criminal legal aid lawyer. That ethic of service was just always in front of us, but also, we always knew that the most important thing for Mum and Dad was us. As a teenager, I was quite socially isolated. I was a nerd, and I was quite lonely sort of a kid. Very much into my books. I was also that kid who did all the speech competitions and who organised the protest march, and who picketed the home ec. department because only girls did sewing and we weren't allowed into the woodwork rooms. Yeah, I was simultaneously the kid on the stage and the kid who was not talking to anyone and didn't get invited anywhere, so, yeah. You know, if I could've been a writer I probably would've done that. I didn't know there was such a thing as a sort of writing career, so law was the obvious thing because it was something could do if the things you were good at were debating and speech making, and your interest was in social justice. You know, criminal court dad, family therapist mum, and very different perspectives on how the court should be treating young people. So, I had this desire in the early days to look at those contrasting perspectives, and I was down in the basement of the law school library and I picked up a book and I started reading it, and it was the first time there was this guy and he understood the contrast between the social scientist perspective and the law perspective and why they were butting heads in court. And I looked him up, I looked at the back of the book, and he came from this place called Cambridge. I thought, well, if I was going to do a Ph.D, I want to talk to that guy. Had my 25th birthday about two weeks after we arrived on the Trafalgar bus. You know, the original nerd girl landed in the land of nerds. It was bliss. I actually made the mistake of getting pregnant when I was I was supposed to be writing up the Ph.D, which was not to be recommended because I was buggered, and Tom got offered a job, so we came home. And it was devastatingly lonely, you know. I hadn't anticipated how hard it was going to be to re-create that community that I'd had in Cambridge, because we had our academic friends, and then they morphed into mum friends and parent friends and then landing in Auckland suburbia and knowing no one. So I was really isolated. You know, being a young mum at home is tough. You really have to have that tribe around you. February 2020, I got a call from a member of the local Labour Party who said, 'Listen, we don't have a candidate. Would you take one for the team?' And he said, 'Listen, it's three months out of your life, 'you have to do a couple of days' campaigning a week. No way you're going to win, it's all fine, 'don't worry about it, it's just` you know, if you could just fit it in somewhere.' So I said yes. Whangarei had been at that stage been blue for 45 years, and that just seems extraordinary when you actually know anything about Whangarei. And so it gave me a platform for three months to sort of do a howl of protest. You know, 'Guys, we actually have to hear the voices of the under-privileged. 'We need to recognise that this town is not OK and more needs to happen for it.' And it was my opportunity to kind of hold the National candidate's feet to the fire a bit. And the next thing you know ` nek minnit ` I'm off to Wellington, to my utter and total surprise. I walked into the All Blacks, right, on a winning streak. They're a tight team, they know what they're doing, they know where they're going, they like each other, so I'm lucky in that sense. The being away from the kids and Thomas is hard. Yeah, that's pretty weird. Especially since our middle two, it's actually their last year of school, so after this they're going to be gone. There's been a heck of a learning curve, but then when I get back up to Whangarei, a, you know, small town, and it's been my home for 40-odd years. Yeah, there have been tough moments but I've had an extraordinarily privileged and wonderful life. I've been really, really lucky. And if the worst you can say is that you've had some tough times at work and you had some lonely years when you were a young mum, pretty good life. - Emily Henderson there. All right, we're back with our panel. Joining me again is PR consultant Ben Thomas and Maori TV political reporter, Rukuwai Tipene-Allen. Tena korua. Thanks for all your time again. A couple of things that we didn't touch on before ` the government's talking up vaccine certificates. Ben, do you think that's going to motivate the last 20% to get their vaccines? - It probably won't` it won't reach that last mile. But what it will do it give younger people, some of whom are a bit more hesitant, a bit of a nudge. More particularly, we'll see it when or if vaccine mandates, or even informal vaccine mandates, are put by employers on people as a result of customer demand, and, you know, we'll dig through that sort of last 20%. But, you know, we'll hit hard limits of people who require much more than, you know` who were never going to Rhythm and Vines, you know. - You're right, there. Rukuwai, people who aren't going off to the summer festivals, I mean, seems to be like a push for the youth in terms of vaccine certificates. But not everybody does that. - Yeah, seems to be incentivising a little bit for that group of people. I think that you're right, though, e hoa ` It's not going to get everyone across the line. I've spoken to some people who say that even the thought of a vaccine certificate almost feels like they're being othered or bullied into getting vaccinated, and I think that that's probably the opposite feeling of it. So you kind of also create another stream of people who just become dead against it again and doubling down on that hesitation. I think that it might do a little bit of good, though, to get people over the line, but I think just like my mate said, I don't think it's going to get all the way across the line. - If they're not going to opt into a voluntary scheme like that, let's just make them do it, i.e. let's mandate vaccines for the teachers. Ben, how's that going to go down? - I think that's really difficult. We already have a teacher shortage at the moment, we don't know how prevalent hesitation is amongst teachers. I think that's also a two stream kind of thing there, we need teachers to be vaccinated because they're working with our children, our babies. We need that level of protection there for them. We also know there's a huge teacher shortage, so if that hesitancy is alive and well, maybe, within the teaching community, then what does that actually mean for our classrooms, and who's left to teach the children if that hesitancy is prevalent in that workforce? - So Cabinet is going to be considering these things on Monday, so not only, you know, mandates for teachers but mandates possibly for health workers. Should this kind of stuff have been on the planning books a long time ago? - Yeah, I think the government was caught by surprise at the kind of lack of efficacy of the traditional tools that we got used to, you know, lockdowns, in beating Delta. What we've seen in the last week is almost not so much a turning point as a kind of 10-point turn, trying to turn around in a narrow hallway, where the government has basically burned through about three or four months' worth of confusion and mind-changing, variations in direction that we saw overseas in seven days. You know, introducing the step-change system, talking about picnics, whether you can pee outdoors or not ` still a subject of some contention. Yeah, look, I think you're right. This hasn't been fully thought through. This isn't something` And where Ardern was actually at her best last year, I think everyone agrees, was these instinctual calls. She made pretty much all the right calls last year, and she needs to stop thinking about it and chatting about teacher mandates and just do it. - Rukuwai, do you think it's a` is this a turning point for the government's popularity? We have seen them slipping a bit in the polls, but I don't think people are going to rate them very well after this particular week. - No, I think that this is a` we do have a little turning point here, but it's also one of those situations where if you were to put yourself in their shoes, what would you do differently? This has been such an unpredictable virus, and although we know that there's some stages where these things could have been done better, and we also have that great thing retrospect at the moment that we can look back on... I do think the government's going to take a hit from this, but I also think things like lockdown fatigue are coming into play in this. I think that people are just feeling tired. COVID's tiring, talking about COVID's tiring for a lot of people, and it's no doubt going to have an effect on the popularity of the major party. - So just one final question ` are we going to have lockdowns for Christmas, Ben? Are you going to put your crystal ball out there? I mean, with the spread of Delta as it's going at the moment? - Yeah, look. Politically, that won't be palatable. That does give a lot of leg time for at least first doses of the vaccine. You know, it's... There's a lot that's been unimaginable in the past ` two years ago you certainly wouldn't have said that Aucklanders would've spent between a fifth and a quarter of 2020 and 2021 basically under house arrest. So who knows? But the politics would suggest no. - All right, we'll leave it there. Thank you so much for your time, Ben Thomas and Rukuwai Tipene-Allen. And that is all from us for now. Nga mihi nui, thank you for watching. Kia haumaru, kia pai to ra. Stay safe and we'll see you again next weekend. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2021