- And I'm Simon Shepherd and welcome to Newshub Nation. - The resistance continues. We cross live to our colleague Lisette Reymer on the ground in Ukraine. - Is New Zealand's response strong enough? An interview with Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta, fresh from Europe. - And Christopher Luxon will deliver his state of the nation speech apopo ` tomorrow. He joins us live. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - Tomo mai. Russia's war in Ukraine has entered its second week, with casualties mounting among both soldiers and civilians. - Shocking images have emerged of a nation under siege, as the Ukrainian people face Europe's most powerful military, bringing its full might to bear. (SPEAKS FOREIGN LANGUAGE) (MISSILE APPROACHES, EXPLODES) - And the world watches, helpless, as Russia continues its invasion. (EXPLOSION) - You are afraid, because NATO is not willing to defend. - Acutely conscious that there is not enough that we can do to help in the way that you want. (EXPLOSIONS RUMBLE) (DEBRIS CLATTERS) (EXPLOSION) - It's been hell, literal hell. - Ukrainians will resist, we are defending our home. - Peace talks were held, no sign of any progress. (EXPLOSION) - When war broke out by chance, there was a meeting of 60 foreign ministers underway in Paris. That included our Foreign Minister, Nanaia Mahuta. - She was there to talk politics in the Indo-Pacific region, but it was quickly overshadowed by Ukraine. Now, back in New Zealand, I asked her what it was like to be there when Vladimir Putin upped his nuclear alert level. - As you can imagine, everyone started to quickly amplify their diplomatic effort, but also amass their understanding of the implications. Again, every forum I attended expressed their deep concern for what was happening. - I mean, it is escalating and ongoing. Kiwis remain in Ukraine ` what support you are able to provide them? - Right now, we have the ability to provide some consular support. We have about 31 people registered on the Safe Travel Register. We did put out an early travel warning while things were still at a relative level of peace and there had been no invasion, to just let people know that it was the best time to leave. Now it would be very difficult to try and support people directly. However, we encourage people who are still in Ukraine to regularly update their whereabouts with the Safe Travel Register. - So the consular support, I mean, would they have to get through to Poland? Is that what support you can provide? - Well, and as we've witnessed, there have been huge numbers exiting Ukraine to get to Poland, but our travel advisory went out prior to Russia's invasion of the Ukraine. - Yep. OK, so, while you were over in Europe, you called Russia 'a bully' in a speech to the UN. I guess, if you're taking that hard stance, why haven't we kicked out the Russian ambassador here? - Yeah, we've called in the Russian ambassador, in fact, that happened fairly quickly. - Sure, but why haven't we kicked them out of the country? - Yeah, look, those` We're certainly considering a range of other measures in addition to the travel bans, export controls, and the diplomatic engagement that we have had, and expressing our concern to the Russian ambassador. - Sure, but what` - As the Prime Minister foreshadowed in the House, there are a range of other measures which we intend to be taking. - OK, well, let's get to those in a moment. But can you tell me what's holding you back from expelling diplomats? What are you worried about? - Well, it's not about being worried. We have incrementally and progressively tried to ensure that we're elevating our response as we're witnessing what's happening over in Russia. Now that Russia has invaded the Ukraine, there is a war happening, another set of responses will be developed. - OK, well` - The Prime Minister indicated that in the House. - Yeah, sure, OK. Apart from those other responses, what would it take for you to say, 'Russia go home from New Zealand'? - Yeah, I think I'd like to consider that in a very measured way, to the extent that the next range of measures provide us another opportunity to turn up the dial on Russia, and to express our strong concern that what they are doing is wrong ` they should de-escalate, they should get out of the Ukraine, and war is not the solution here. - Well, what is in the next range of measures that you're talking about. What else can you do? - Yeah, so, what we've` and I certainly... got a good sense of... the united approach that European nations were taking in response to Russia, and, so, you know, we're currently working on a set of targeted sanctions because this war is unjustified and unprovoked. - So what are those sanctions? - And the Prime Minister foreshadowed that we are working on that approach. - OK, so look, she has foreshadowed that ` but this is urgent, isn't it? It's urgent. It's happening now. The war is ongoing; lives are being lost. And do you need to step up the process? Are you just being too slow here? - No, not at all. In fact, immediately when Russia encroached into the Ukraine, we applied the sanctions that we did have available to us. Just last week, the Prime Minister made a statement in the House regarding Russia, and I made a similar statement over in the Human Rights Council. We have seen things escalate. We are putting to cabinet a set of approaches in relation to sanctions regarding Russia ` Prime Minister foreshadowed that and it is going through its process. - Right, so will we see on Monday a new suite of sanctions announced against Russia? - We will see cabinet` cabinet's` It's my intention to put to cabinet an approach that could enable us to turn up the dial on Russia, be in step with other countries ` because they are taking a progressive approach to applying sanctions to ensure that Russia hears unequivocally what they are doing is wrong. - Yes, I appreciate that is the position. So does this mean that it is autonomous sanctions like the opposition has been asking for? Are you stepping away from following the United Nations where Russia has a veto, and choosing our own sanctions? We're being outside the UN? - Yeah, one of the things we've got to recognise, and this is something I got a firsthand view on, is that there is a huge level of multilateral support for targeted sanctions on Russia, because the war that they are currently undertaking is unprovoked, and it's unjustified, and it is in breach of the UN charter. - Does that mean you can freeze assets? - When we see the world responding in a multilateral way to sending a very clear and strong message to Russia, that is` that in itself, I think, indicates just how urgent this issue is... - So we'll see` - ...and how the globe is` global community are responding. - So we'll see the details soon. Also in your speech at the United Nations Human Rights Council, you said, 'We must not let diplomacy fail,' so, you know, an idealistic, lofty statement. What does that mean practically? what can we do to help the diplomacy? - Well, the whole point of the United Nations and the UN Charter was to uphold the international rule of law. And if we say that there is no place for that, then that whole legacy of commitment towards the United Nations and promoting international law has been wasted. I don't think it has, though. I think there is always a place for diplomacy. I do believe that there is an opportunity still, now, to encourage Russia to withdraw and retreat from its current aggression. In fact, we are aware that there are talks continuing around safe passage of Ukrainian citizens to be able to exit Russia. There is always a place for diplomacy, but it really requires all parties to be committed towards an outcome that doesn't lead you down a road towards war. - OK, you mentioned the refugees, for people to depart Ukraine. UN says there's more than a million that have already done so, or been displaced. National's calling for a humanitarian visa for family members of Ukrainians in New Zealand. Is that something that the government is considering? - Yeah, look, those are matters that will be considered within the context of our own immigration law and our ability to prioritise. Can I put that into context, because I did meet with the president of the UNHCR, and they forecast that as a result of the war in Ukraine, there is likely to be about five million displaced Ukrainians as a result. That's a huge number, and I know that it's really important for the global community to identify what it can do to provide humanitarian support, but also to address the significant challenge of displaced Ukrainians who may ultimately be long-term refugees. - Absolutely. What can we do for them? - Well, we are always willing to step up to the plate when it comes to a humanitarian response. My colleague, the Honourable Kris Faafoi, no doubt will be considering the range of opportunities and tools that he has available to him to make a specific announcement in that area, and I'll leave that up to him. - OK. New Zealand officials have just met this week with their Chinese counterparts. Now, I mean, there is a deepening relationship between Russia and China, and the New Zealand officials said, or encouraged China to use its Russian influence and access to help with the situation in Ukraine. What does that mean? - Well, Russia and China enjoy a close relationship, and again, this is the pathway of diplomacy. If Russian` if friends of Russia can express that war is not a solution, that that would be a very helpful thing indeed. But New Zealand, in terms of expressing our concern, trying to find diplomatic pathways, trying to join diplomatic efforts to de-escalate situations, we're really consistent on that front. So the CE of MFAT, in undertaking his meeting, has only been amplifying what our position... - Sure. - ...has always been, which is try and use diplomacy as much as we can. - Do you hold out much hope for diplomacy or putting any pressure on China in that regard, given that Putin and Xi Jinping met just recently, about the time of the Winter Olympics, and put out that statement, which said there were no forbidden areas of cooperation between them? - Yeah, look, I think New Zealand should be seen to always be trying to find a diplomatic solution and try really hard at pursuing that avenue, because the alternative is war. The alternative is that lives are lost. The alternative means that there is not a regard for international law, the international rule of law, as there should be. And that's what keeps our communities, our region stable, harmonious and prosperous. - Just finally, Minister, you've said that you want to have tirohanga Maori ` Maori worldview at the forefront of your approach to foreign affairs. How does New Zealand achieve that in a situation like this that we're facing? - Well, it's not binary. What we can say is that in promoting peace and reconciliation, that is absolutely consistent with the long-held position that New Zealand has advocated at the United Nations and other fora, using diplomacy as a means to, I guess, reject war as an answer. It's something that New Zealand holds close to its foreign policy approach, and in many ways, manaakitanga and mahi tahi is reflected within that type of an approach. So I don't see it as a binary, one way or another. I see it more as integrating a bi-cultural approach to enhance New Zealand's values and interests as it promotes its foreign policy objectives. - Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta, tena koe. - Tena koe, kia ora. - Our Foreign Minister Nanaia Mahuta there. If you've got a news tip, please get in touch. - We're on pae tihau ` Twitter, Pukamata ` Facebook, and paeahua ` Instagram. - Or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. - E whai ake nei ` analysis of the news of the week with our political panel. - Plus, we go live to Ukraine with our Europe correspondent Lisette Reymer, who is there. with Camera Operator Dan Pannett. - They're currently in the western city of Lviv, where it's 10.30 at night. - And Lisette joins us now live from there. Lisette, thank you so much for your time. What's it like at the moment in Lviv? - Well, it's hard to sum up in just a few words, but it is incredibly eerie. It is incredibly strange. Life is not normal here at the moment at all. There is a lot of suspicion around the streets. Everyone wants to check your documents, a lot of military confronting you, asking you who you are and what you are doing here. There is, of course, the constant wailing of sirens signalling the air raids. I wouldn't be surprised if we heard one over the course of this conversation. They pick up at this time of night. It is a very strange world that Ukrainians are living in. It is far from the norm, and everyone is very much on edge. - Are you actually under curfew at the moment? - We are under curfew, which is why we're kind of standing in a courtyard, very near our apartment. We're just in the backyard. The curfew is in place from 10 o'clock at night through to 6 o'clock in the morning, and that is really just because they don't want anyone out and about ` not just because of the risk, but because they are assuming anyone out at that time could be a Russian, and they would assume that they would then go and arrest that person. So for the sake of clarity, they've just said, 'Everybody, stay at home.' - When you have been out and about during the day and, you know, I'm not talking about the military that you're talking to, but the regular Ukrainians, what are they saying to you about the war? - Well, they're frightened, and I think that's a fair way to feel, but they are also incredibly determined. They know.... They have a sense that it is coming their way, but they're very much prepared, and a lot of people are very resolute about the fact. They've lived a long time with Russia as their bad neighbour. That is how they often describe Russia, and they're kind of saying, 'It's now or never. Now is the time for us to sort this once and for all, 'establish our independence, establish our freedom and fight.' And so there is a real sense of defiance, a real sense of determination. They want to draw a line under this once and for all and stand up and say, 'We will not be bullied. we will not be bullied out of our homeland.' - The intense Russian assault is carrying on, and you've got Vladimir Putin sitting up there in Moscow, claiming that his military is not targeting civilians. How is that going down? - Yeah, this is the continuous narrative that Putin is pushing out, but it just completely contradicts what we're seeing in the evidence ` constant bombardments, constant cluster bombs being dropped in highly dense residential areas. The EU came out today and said that, as the fighting has continued, it has intensified, and they are now seeing the deliberate bombing of the likes of houses and schools and hospitals, which is obviously incredibly concerning. And that is why there are these allegations of war crimes now being discussed. So a lot of concern about the civilian casualties involved in this now, with experts suggesting we will see more of it. The more Putin feels like his troops perhaps aren't making the progress he had expected of them, he is going to double down on these bombardments and really put the pressure on Ukraine via those civilian casualties. - And at the same time, the intense attacks on Ukraine's infrastructure goes on. I mean, we had Russia, you know, firing on the biggest nuclear power plant. They've now seized it. What are the implications there? - That is hugely concerning for everyone. In the last 24 hours, that has just really ramped up the concern. World leaders have been very quick to condemn that for obvious reasons, describing it as what could have been a catastrophic nuclear disaster. In fact, President Zelenskyy, the president of Ukraine, went as far as to say, if that fire had continued and an explosion occurred, it would have been the equivalent of six Chernobyls. So there is a huge concern now that they are in there and it is occupied by Russians because the Ukrainian staff who are usually there and keeping an eye on the safety and the security of that infrastructure are now, perhaps, not getting the access and the communication they would usually need. Now, the good news is the fire was extinguished. They understand now that the radiation levels haven't changed, but the broader concern people have now is what this means in terms of the Geneva Convention. You're not meant to target nuclear infrastructure in times of war, and now there are warnings going out from experts all over the world that those countries that do have nuclear plants should be on particular watch for the fact that, now this rule has been broken once, could it happen again? - Russia has agreed in those peace talks on the Belarusian border to a possible ceasefire, to open up, like, a humanitarian corridor through Ukraine to allow aid in. But there's no end in sight to the war. How are those talks being viewed? - Well, that was a small, small, small win in the scheme of things. These peace talks have gone into round two. They will now go into round three. That is what we're hearing. I think people here are very cynical, very sceptical of anything to do with Putin, anything to do with his commitments. So even that peace corridor has been met with a little bit of, 'Oh, we will believe it when we see it.' I think there is a lot of trust and a growing faith and respect in President Zelenskyy by the Ukrainians. They really trust their president, and I think they hope that he is going into these negotiations with the feeling they have, which is they are not willing to compromise at all on their independence. So if that is what is prolonging these negotiations, Ukrainians are happy enough with that, although it is coming at such a steep price. - Yeah, and Zelenskyy has been obviously, you know, urging NATO and the West to get involved ` you know, close the skies, send more planes. But NATO has again said it won't send troops and it won't close the airspace. So what's the feeling on the ground there about how the rest of the world is responding? - I think this is quite two-pronged. I think, on one hand, you have Ukrainians feeling incredibly grateful for the support they've had from everyday people. In Europe in particular, there's been a huge outpouring of love and support for the refugees who have arrived, particularly in Poland. People coming from all corners of Europe to offer their support in terms of shelter or transport to wherever they need to go so that these refugees have a place to stay for as long as they do. But certainly, on the political side of the board, there is a lot of disappointment in the lack of support. And, actually, you get the sense, and people will tell you here in Ukraine, that, 'We know we're in it alone.' They say, 'It is up to us to fight this battle and to win this battle, 'because no one is coming to help us.' And that is why we are seeing so many Ukrainians go to such extreme lengths to be involved and to help with this fight ` with civilians, you know, picking up arms and joining the territorial defence and going out to fight with absolutely no skill base at all. - Lisette, you've been doing these heart-wrenching reports on refugees pouring out through Poland. I mean, can you give us a sense of the scale of the humanitarian cost of this war? - It is hard. It is really hard to put any sort of explanation on how big it is, because it is just monstrous, and it is getting bigger every day. So, already they're saying over a million refugees have fled the border. Half of them have gone through Poland just because that is the closest, it's easiest to access. And they are expecting that these numbers will grow to, you know, five million. And that is just those who are fleeing the country. There are also those who are internally displaced here in Ukraine. So the cost of the lives and people that are re-evaluating where they go, where they live, what their homes are, what their futures are, what their jobs will be. People have packed up their children with, you know, nothing but one little bag full of some nappies and a few muesli bars, and they have made this huge journey into the unknown. And I think a lot of people talk a little bit about, 'Oh, I'll stay at a friends for two weeks, 'and then I'll be able to come home,' but as the days have progressed, I think the feeling on the ground has been dramatically... it's changing to, 'We might not ever go home.' - Yeah, just quickly on that ` what do those locals really think Putin's endgame is? - (LAUGHS DRILY) There is no love lost here for Putin. People hate him. That is the fact of the matter. And, you know, most people, if you ask them that, will just say, 'He's mad, and he will go all the way.' So that is what Ukrainians are bracing for. They are they are bracing for a big fight, a long fight, and they are not going to give an inch. So they're expecting this to last, because they don't feel like Putin will ever come to the negotiating table and be sensible, be realistic, be fair. That is the feeling you get from Ukrainians. - Lisette Reymer and Cameraman Dan Pannett. Stay safe there in Lviv, and thank you so much for your time. - Kia mau tonu mai, e te iwi, kei tua ` National Leader Christopher Luxon joins us live. - Plus ` a special report from Anna Bracewell-Worrall on COVID's outsized effect on women. on Sunday as Leader of the National Party. Heoi ano, e te iwi, kua hono mai ia. He joins us now live from his home in Auckland. Tena koe. Morena, Christopher. - Morena. Great to be with you. - Thank you for joining us. You have called this the most divisive government in recent memory. Given what we saw at Parliament this week, do you regret saying that? - Look, no` no party supported the protest in Parliament that we saw. They were highly abusive. They were legal` illegal, and, as we saw, the behaviour at the end was just reprehensible. And so, you know, I'm very proud that all parties actually held the line and said, 'What we're seeing there is not acceptable to any of us.' And that was really good. The point I was trying to make over the last week was that there are reasonable, law-abiding, well-informed New Zealanders who are actually saying, 'Hey, listen, I've gone off, I've done everything right. 'I've followed all the rules. I've been compliant. 'I've gone off and got triple-vaxxed, but I'm unclear as to where we're going.' And if you're a business owner up here in Auckland and you've gone through a period of lockdown, and you're trying to work out whether your cafe's` when will it get back to normal again, if your tourism business, having done that, if you've been a person trying to come home to see a dying mother, or you want to go off and see the grandkids in Australia, we don't have clarity. And in fairness, you know, I thought the government did a good job in 2020, clearly articulating where we were going and how we were going to get there. But, actually, since 2021 and 2022, it's been an absolute shambles and being made up on the fly. And New Zealanders are frustrated about that, and they want some clarity. All we're asking for is ` let's lay out the road map for it. - Yeah, it was the timing of that speech that you delivered. Did you see that as emboldening those protesters, and was the timing off? - Absolutely not. It's important that we can have a conversation that good, law-abiding New Zealanders that want to raise concerns about the COVID plan don't just get lumped in with those protesters, don't get lumped in with that reprehensible behaviour, but can still legitimately ask really reasonable questions of Government to say, 'Where are we going? You stepped in with a whole bunch of restrictions, and how are you gonna step out?' And that's all that they're asking for. - Yeah, the speech was around division, the division amongst the nation. Speaking on that, you're National's fifth leader in just four years. Leaking has been rife within the party. What will you do when someone steps out of line? - Well, look, I'd say to you that, you know, I've been the leader now for almost four months, and we've had a really good period of time. We've actually reset the party. We've got the right people in the right places. They're focused on opposing the government and proposing new ideas, and you'll continue to see that through the course of the year. So, you know, as I said before, we've reset, we've turned the page, we've left that behind us. I'm very clear with all of my MPs; I've spoken to each and every one of them about the expectations I have of them and will continue to do so. So expectations are clear. We're going forward. I can tell you the reaction that you're seeing with the public and the public reaction we're getting, the number of supporters that we're getting, people wanting to get involved with our party, people wanting to become candidates at the next election, is already, you know, stepping up big time. So, you know, we're really focused on the things that matter. The thing that matters the most at the moment is the cost of living crisis that New Zealanders are going through. We need to come up with ideas for that. - And we'll get to that very shortly. But first, in terms of meeting your MPs, I understand you'll be meeting with each of your 32 MPs in the coming week. That seems like a business-centric approach. How do you measure an opposition MP's performance? - Well, really, what I want them to be able to do is just make sure that they're out there, engaging with the community, they're out of their offices in Wellington, they're actually talking to people in the community at the front line. Just this week, I've been at the Christchurch City Mission. Last week, I was at the Auckland City Mission. I was out seeing Tui Ora in New Plymouth recently. You know, you've actually gotta get out and about and actually see the hurt, the pain, the frustration, start to work with some of the stakeholders that are in the industries that they're part of, and actually work out ` what ideas have they got? You know, what can we put voice to? How do we actually solve these problems that we have? So, for me, a lot of it is` - And how do we measure your performance, Christopher? How do we measure your performance? What are your KPIs? - Well, my KPI is very simple ` it's to win the election in 2023. That's all that I'm focused on, so that's all that matters. - (CHUCKLES) Good response there. - And so it's very, very binary for me as the Leader of the National Party. - So, if you were the Prime Minister, which portfolios would you take? - Look, I haven't thought too deeply about that. At the moment, you know, I've been focusing on the security and intelligence portfolios. And it's also given me freedom to be able to work with each of my MPs on the key portfolios as we try and think through ` well, what are the ideas that we have around education? What would we do around mental health? What would we do about removing inequality in this country? How do we actually deal with this cost of living crisis? So, you know, I'll work that out closer to the time and down the road. - National's stance on Maori seats has flip-flopped over the years. Will you be standing candidates in Maori seats? - Yes, we will. Yes, we will. And so, that's something that we'll work through in the next few months. But, yes, that's very much our intention. - Wow. Thank you. You held National's Maori Development portfolio for eight months last year. So, tell us ` what policies do you have to entice Maori to vote National at the next election? - Well, look, I mean, the bottom line is, you know, to be honest, we need to be a national National Party, and what that means is we need to be able to talk to every community across New Zealand to be able to present our centre-right politics, principles and beliefs and be able to articulate them to each and every community in the country. And so it's no different with respect to Maori. Maori have actually done incredibly well under National governments, if you think about the treaty settlements that were done under Chris Finlayson, if you think about the Maori economy and how that was unleashed and has been booming, and if you think about, even, progress that we were starting to make around education with Maori outcomes as well. So, you know, for me, it's, you know, I've been quite clear in my Treaty of Waitangi remarks and, you know, around Waitangi Day remarks, and iwi leaders forums as well, that, you know, Maori can do well with National governments. And so we've got to be able to make the case for that. I appreciate we've got a lot of work to do. But we should get on and get going with that. - OK. During that time last year, Judith Collins called He Puapua a separatist plan. What's your view of He Puapua? - Well, look, I mean, that's sort of, you know, the government sort of seems to put on the back burner from what I can work out. For me... You know, it's very clear for me that we are a country built on strong bicultural traditions, which we can be incredibly proud about. But we are also a modern, multicultural country going forward in the world as well, and so it's important that we can represent all of New Zealand. - What's your` What's your view of the report itself, He Puapua, the plan? - Look, I've read it. My view is that it's` there's a set of ideas. They're not ideas that we support when you follow it through to its logical conclusion to have two separate states. We support a lot of devolution and localism. That's exactly what the National Party's about. We trust people. We empower people in community, business, in government, local government, to get on and get things done. Those closest to the problems should solve them. But we don't believe that we are` We are one country. - Do you support` Well, do you still want to scrap the new Maori Health Authority? Is that still the stance today? - Well, a bigger problem is that we're spending half a billion dollars, $500 million, that's going to be going straight through to management consultants, and we're not getting any improved outcomes as a result. Even the government's own papers are saying they're not going to see improved outcomes for years. So, for us, it's a restructure that isn't leading to better outcomes. And that's what we're fixated on in the National Party is we're here because we want to solve problems and we want to get better outcomes. So we're up for any conversation or any structure that delivers outcomes, but you can't go restructure something and not get an improved outcome for everyday people. - Let's move on to Ukraine. You've repeatedly called for New Zealand to have independent sanctions. Let's say we had them. Now's your chance. What sanctions would you put on Russia? - Well, look, it's a set of legislation that Gerry Brownlee proposed last year. The government rejected. But I think it's a really good bill, and it would make sense for the situation that we're encountering right now. The fact that New Zealand is reliant on multilateral institutions like the UN ` they can condemn the actions of Russia ` but as you've seen with the Security Council and Russia having a power of veto, it's rather meaningless. We do need to stand with our partners in the West that have similar liberal democracies, with the same set of values, and have our own set of legislation around it. The good news is, you know, talking with` Gerry Brownlee and Nanaia Mahuta had discussions last night. I think that they can find a way where we can work together on a bill that actually, if we can get into Parliament next week and pass that law, I think it would be a really good thing for New Zealand to underscore our condemnation of Russia and its actions. It gives us some flexibility to be able to think about, you know, trade embargoes and asset freezing and a bunch of things like that. But, you know, these are good things that we should be doing to underscore our seriousness about it. And the other thing I'd say to you is that, you know, I think we should really, you know, action our idea to have, you know, a humanitarian visa, a special humanitarian visa for the 1500 Ukrainian-Kiwis and their immediate family that are sitting in Ukraine at the moment, in a very desperate (STAMMERS) set of circumstances. So, you know, for me, I'd love us to push on with that as well and actually be able to offer that up to the immediate family of the 500 Ukrainian-Kiwis that are here. - Right. And you called Putin completely unhinged. Did you go too far with that comment? - No. I think most New Zealanders would agree with me about that. I didn't use those statements lightly. The bottom line is he's got no interest in diplomacy, as we've seen over the last 24 hours. - All right. We're going to move on. This Sunday, you're giving your state of the nation speech. What are you going to say? - Well, look, I think, you know, people in New Zealand understand and believe that the National Party are the best people to run the economy, and the economy is in real trouble at the moment. Essentially, we've got a major cost of living crisis. You know, everyday, hardworking Kiwis can't get ahead. Every New Zealander is worse off than they were 12 months ago. Inflation and the price of goods has gone up over 6%, and their wages are only growing up 2.5%. So their money doesn't go as far, they can't buy as much, and as a result, they're going backwards. And so, I want to be able to talk about that and I want to talk about, you know, what sort of ideas. In the spirit that I've been saying right from when I became the leader ` we will oppose the government, but we're also going to propose ideas, exactly as we're doing` - But at the moment, what we're seeing is that we have a record low unemployment. There is record low unemployment figures out there at the moment. The government books are tracking way better than forecasted. The economy has done really well during the pandemic. The high cost of living is a result of global trends, like what's happening over in Ukraine and the pandemic itself. So, hey, is it as you say it is` as dismal as you say it is, the state of our economy at the moment? - Yeah, when you add in it, you can look at` What you've just referenced there is a series of macro economic indicators. What we're talking about is at the microeconomic level for the average person in New Zealand. They all know. When they've seen` You know, the average tank at the pump has gone up $40. Rents under this government have gone up $7200 after tax to rent the same you had four years ago. When you think about the big increase ` 13% increase in food prices that we've seen. So, everyone understands that the price of things have got really expensive, and they know their wages aren't going up in the same amount, and so they know they're going backwards at an individual and a personal level, and that's really something that we've got to think about. - All right. Just quickly, final question ` it's International Women's Day on Tuesday. Are you a feminist? - Absolutely. I want my daughter to have exactly the same opportunities that my son has. And as you look at my record at Air New Zealand, where we worked really hard to build women from 16% of the top 100 jobs up to 44% in a very short period of time. We moved from a, I think, a 9% pay equity gap down to a 0% pay equity gap. And I think if you look at the frontbench line up of the National Party at the moment, I think we're doing the right thing. So I'm a big fan of diversity and inclusion. We need a lot more of it in the National Party, as I've said many times before. But, yeah, I want my daughter to have the same opportunities as my son. - Great to have a korero with you this morning. Thank you for joining us. Christopher Luxon, the National Party Leader. - Thank you. Take care. - E haere ake nei ` our panellists dissect the news and politics of the week. Plus ` a special report ahead of Tuesday, International Women's Day. Two years of an unpredictable pandemic has affected everyone differently, but there's one group making up half of our society that's been hit hardest ` women. - Ahead of International Women's Day on Tuesday, Anna Bracewell-Worrall looks at the extra burden on women and what the government's doing about it. - New Zealand's under-2s have only ever known life in the pandemic ` periods of isolation, masks, greetings through windows. Early childhood teachers like Imogen Held are trying to keep life for them as normal as possible. - All teachers are trying really hard not to let it impact their interactions with the children, and then we go home ourselves, and hopefully there's a support network to support us after doing that all day. - But COVID-19 finds its way into gaps and inequities and lays them bare. We saw this in Auckland when Delta raged through our emergency housing ` we saw lockdowns push some into homelessness. - I had to have food at internet cafes or park benches. - COVID is also making gender inequities worse. Early childhood teachers are historically low paid; when schools closed, Imogen watched as colleagues took unpaid leave to look after their kids. - How is that not harming the teachers? All they can think about the whole time is, 'How will I pay my bills? 'How will I cover the expenses? How will I put food on the table for my family?' And then, yeah, you know, going to work and trying to be the best teacher they can, but at the back of mind thinking, 'What if I get COVID? How am I going to make things work?' - As Dr Holly Thorpe discovered through her research into the pandemic's impact on women, for many heterosexual couples, the decision on who cuts back on work is financial. - When families are having to make these difficult decisions, often it is based on who is bringing in the more significant income. And with the existing gender pay gap, that means it's often men's jobs and professions that are being prioritised in these decisions. - Women are also more likely to lose their jobs ` we saw this from the very first lockdown. In the June quarter of 2020, 90% of the 11,000 New Zealanders who lost their jobs due to COVID-19 were women. - And we saw, actually, women's employment take a bigger hit because they're employed in the likes of the service industries and hospitality. - Sharon Zollner, chief economist at ANZ, says after that dip, employment bounced back to record highs. But now that COVID is in every community, women will likely take the hit again. - The sectors that are suffering are sectors like hospitality, where young people and women are overrepresented, so I think there is still perhaps a job security issue there. - For some women, it will be particularly acute ` Pakeha women will suffer less impact in Maori and Pacific women, or women with disabilities. And there's a second warning ` the pandemic has created an economic climate of inflation, which could intensify the gender pay gap. - And how fast you come out of that situation and get a fairer deal is to some extent going to depend on how proactive you are. In asking for a pay rise, the evidence suggests that men are a bit better at that than women. - Then there's unpaid work. - So women are definitely picking up a lot of emotional labour. They're having to make decisions ` day-to-day decisions about risk calculations for their families, for themselves, for their children. - That can mean a burden of stress. This extremely honest out-of-office email reply from one of the press secretaries at Parliament is an example of what Dr Holly Thorpe is talking about. It reads... (READS EMAIL) If there's sick family to look after, stress levels go up and paid work hours go down. The government knows women are hit hard by COVID, mean that women are more susceptible to economic hardship, and less resilient against COVID-19's economic impacts. But Grant Robertson's big economic recovery fund ` the Shovel Ready Fund, went to infrastructure projects ` a male dominated industry. - I think that those industries that were targeted were really important, because that was to get the economy moving again. - The OECD is urging governments to pursue targeted policy to close gender gaps and level the playing field. - What we did realise as a government ` that we just need to do more work for women. - Targeted funding for women has been minimal, but Jan Tinetti, Women's Minister, insists changes are coming. - We know that pay negotiations can be difficult for women at times, and, so, therefore, we're really interested in pay transparency. - And could the door be opening to more subsidised childcare? - We're also looking at the barriers towards putting women in that situation of the precarious nature of the work that they do, and so an example of that is childcare. - The pandemic is also creating a job shortage because of those off caring or isolating, and a lack of immigration ` which could be a silver lining for women. - Women are getting a chance, perhaps, to do more roles where they haven't had the traditional experience that employers might think were necessary, so that's` that's a real plus. But it's not going to suddenly overnight change attitudes. - That would take a bigger shake-up than a global pandemic. - I think I've only ever seen one female plumber in my life. I nearly wanted to go up to her and shake her hand. (LAUGHS) - If you've always dreamed of fixing hot water cylinders, ladies, 2022 could be your chance. - Anna Bracewell-Worrall with that report. I'm joined now by our panel ` Dr Lara Greaves, lecturer in New Zealand Politics at Te Whare Wananga o Tamaki Makaurau ` Auckland University; and Rachel MacGregor, former Conservative Party press secretary ` now working in Health PR. Ata marie, kia korua. Welcome. Let's address that story first. Lara, as we saw in Anna's story, COVID has amplified inequalities for women here in Aotearoa, New Zealand, should there have been targeted funding for women? - I think, yes, in hindsight, there should have been. And in hindsight, we do need to get away from it, where we're talking about individual women going and negotiating individual packages, because they` we` they, we, are up against this huge system, that also isn't just discriminatory broadly, but also is discriminatory in a sectional way. So we know for wahine Maori, for Pacific women, for disabled women, for transgender women, they're facing even extra barriers altogether. So this is, again, like with the Maori equity response in the pandemic, this is one of those things that was very foreseeable, and really noticeable in their policy. So it really will be interesting to see what their next step is to try to rectify some of these inequities that they've created. - Mmmm. We have, historically, a high number of women in parliament now ` how is that changing parliament? - So I would say that it's one thing to have that descriptive representation ` to have women in there, and have women in cabinet, and women in parliament be able to give that lens to that bill, and ` and hopefully we will see more women in the National Party list this time around, because` as Christopher Luxon indicated ` but it's another thing to actually be able to change some of those structures. So, like, if we look at, say, the parties themselves, and we look at, sort, of the neoliberalism that was introduced in the '80s and '90s ` no one's looking to step that back, or change that model, and that's where we need to start looking at those broader structural policies that are about gender equity, relating to child care, relating to proper parental leave for all genders, for all parents, you know, and those sorts of broader economic policies that make it easier for people to make choices and live their best lives regardless of gender. - Rachel, Auckland University Politics Professor Jennifer Curtin said in a Guardian article last year that, 'While representation within parliaments is increasing, 'the rules and norms still derive from a white male experience and understanding of politics.' How can Parliament shift away from this? - Look, I think there's lots of things that` that parliament can do, and they haven't done much, they keep saying they need to do more, but action is just not being taken. I mean, the gender pay gap was 9.5% in 2020, and the reduction has` has stalled over the last decade. We're not making enough progress fast enough, and you can see by sort of things like, you know, our Maori wahine incarceration rate is a real national shame. There's all` There's all these sort of figures that just show that wahine, and especially wahine from minority ethnic groups, are really suffering in all sorts of ways. And, yes, the public service are doing all sorts of things ` I know in New Zealand there is some work at the moment to try and get more wahine in, you know, public service roles and to, you know, increase their pay ` but nothing's happening, you know, in the public sector. And I think one of the first things we can do is really try and push for pay transparency, you would have heard at the end of that piece there, they were talking about pay transparency, what that means is that when jobs are advertised, there is real transparency as to exactly how much will be offered to any candidate, as opposed to, you know, getting to the interview, you know, being a woman, being offered a certain amount, perhaps being a man and being offered a different amount. - Lara, let's talk about Christopher Luxon's korero there earlier. Starting with are you surprised that he is a feminist? That he described himself as a feminist? - Yeah, because I did wonder if he would dodge that and just say that he's supportive of women, and that he does have a daughter; but to say that he's a feminist, and phrase it in the terms that he wants his daughter and his son to have the same opportunities, I thought was really interesting. Something that I don't think in the '90s or early 2000s that we would expect that we'd have a male National Party leader that would come out and say that. So that's, again, really, a really interesting point in terms of the way that he is talking about diversity and inclusion going forward, and potentially an indicator that they're moving more to the centre there. - Yeah. On that note, is he the face of the future for the National Party? - I don't know about him as an individual. I would say that in terms of the National Party, it's really important for them` a key challenge for them is to now present what they would do differently going forward, and that really clear package, that alternative package, so people can ` even in soundbite forms, it has to come across in soundbite form this day and age ` that people can go` articulate really clearly, OK, the protests, the riots, what would have National done differently? And that's not necessarily coming through. He is articulating being forward-facing and talking to his MPs and seeing what steps to take. And, ultimately, those steps around the Maori seats are really encouraging, because just that broader demographic inclusion is something that I think millennials and Gen Z'ers would expect to see, and those are the kind of voters that he needs to win back. - Yeah. Rachel, next week, Luxon is going to conduct performance reviews with each of his 32 MPs. Is it the start of a caucus clean-out? - Look, I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, National have come some way. You know, Judith Collins has gone and they've brought in someone new. I don't think we know particularly much about Christopher Luxon at the moment. I mean, I'm not particularly inspired at this point, but I would really encourage, you know, everybody in the National Party to really start putting forward concrete ideas and to actually give us some hope. I mean, there is a lot of despair in New Zealand at the moment for all sorts of reasons ` look at what we've been through; what we're going through. I think there's so much opportunity for them, but I'm just not seeing anything. Obviously, Judith Collins was always just taking sort of very cheap shots and just sort of criticising everything, instead of actually, you know, giving really solid ideas. I think Christopher Luxon needs to really present some very solid ideas. I mean, the last election, I just remember this billboard that they had, which said 'strong team'. Meanwhile, their team was clearly imploding, and, you know, their team was in a terrible state, clearly. So they need to be putting forward what they actually are good at, and they need to find out what that is, because I don't know. I want` I want to really know what it is now that this new team is good at, and then they need to tell us all about it. - Yeah. Lara, by modernising the party, does Luxon stand to lose National's right wing supporters? - Yeah, so what it all comes back to is at the end of the day, we're an MMP environment, so you need to form a government, not necessarily just winning at the polls, like Labour did this past election, but normally you have to form a government through coalition, confidence and supply, and so on. So they need to think what their pathway to power is in terms of the parties involved. Now there's that general right block with National and Act ` that's actually quite that challenge to be able to maintain that centre ground and really cover that centre ground off ` that's where it does come back to those possibilities of someone like New Zealand First popping back up. Or they're forming some kind of Christian party on the right, and that Christian party would be quite broadly inclusive to try to pivot to Pasifika voters who might be dissatisfied with Labour over different social issues. But to try to really gain the right` But then again, it's that hard thing again of trying to get to 5%, and that's where it does come down to is there an electorate there? You know, will Luxon keep Botany? Or would there be some kind of trade there? And I think that that's the space we need to watch in the next couple of years, because we are in an MMP environment, and that is part of their path to power. - Tena rawa atu korua. Thank you very much. Dr Lara Greaves and Rachel MacGregor, our panellists for today. Thank you both very much for joining us. Kia mau tonu mai, e te iwi. We're back after the break. Ahead of International Women's Day on Tuesday, we asked the Prime Minister what she's achieved for wahine here in Aotearoa, New Zealand. - In my mind, so long as we have pay equity issues, a gender pay gap, so long as, you know, we have a disproportionate amount of violence towards women, we have work to do. And we do. We have made progress. We've made progress on pay issues; we've extended paid parental leave; you know, the appointments that we make as a government, 50% are now within those boards, women. but there is more to do. And, for me, the measure of when we've really reached the destination is when our young woman and girls don't consider their gender to be the cause of violence, or the cause of them no longer being able to achieve the things that they hope and dream for. That will be the measure. - Let's see what our panel thinks of that. Rachel McGregor and Dr Lara Greaves are back with us now. Lara, would you be happy with that list of achievements? - I think that fundamentally it does come back to what they're going to do next. You can always list off your achievements, but I think there are a couple of, like, policy areas that I think in particular are missed opportunities for labour at the moment. One is the Family Court, which does see a lot of our whanau violence cases; and everyone ` lawyers, experts, people going through it, all say that it's broken from all sides. And that's where there's a lot of capacity within the Labour Party caucus ` Emily Henderson and others ` where they would be able to really make their mark on the Family Court and the format. So that's one area where I would suspect that we will see some movement. The other one is around beneficiaries not` So if you're on the solo parent benefit ` 60,000 people, most of them woman ` currently, what happens is the IRD collects the child support from, say, the dad or the other parent, and then it comes back to the state as recompense for that benefits. And that can be anything from $0 to $2000 a month or something, you know, like in there, that that whanau, the solo mother, doesn't see that money, it just gets re-collected by the state. And so for something that's a universal entitlement for all of us, the idea that the state is taking that money and it's going into that blob is something that does need reform. And we've seen Chloe Swarbrick challenge the ministers on that. - Mmmmm. Rachel, your thoughts about what the Prime Minister said early there? - Yeah. Look, I think that was a very short clip and her list was very short, (CHUCKLES) unfortunately. You know, for... You know, for the Labour Party, I really would have hoped for more. I think, as we've heard from Lara, she talked about the Family Court, I think, the thing is, every day at the moment, we have women, young women, children going through not just the Family Court, but the Civil and the Criminal Courts, and being completely unnecessarily traumatised by the experience. Going through court makes things so much worse for people, especially in cases of sexual violence, and all sorts of other areas as well ` really sensitive issues. We have an adversarial court system, and we've been really sort of, you know, 'We're not changing it.' But if you look at Scotland, and what they're doing with` they have brought in an inquisitorial system for specific cases ` ones, you know` like sexual violence cases, ones where, for instance, where you might have, you know, children giving evidence. And what happens is that people go to, say, a hotel; they talk to a panel of people who aren't threatening; and they can, you know, they're not going into a big courtroom; and they're not having, you know, for instance, in my case, you know, the aggressor there asking you the questions. You're actually able to tell the truth, in some cases, whisper the truth, and not be in such a sort of a conflict-filled environment, because I don't believe in that sort of environment you actually get to the truth. And if you look at the outcomes for everybody in that process, it's horrendous. And, I mean, I honestly think that we need to... I know this sounds very, you know, extreme, but I think we just need to scrap it and go back to first principles and look at, sort of, 'OK, what works?' and start again, because it is just so, so broken. Yeah, so, so broken. - Can I move on to Ukraine? Speaking of volatile, and violence, and all of it that's going on over in Ukraine. The Foreign Minister earlier said New Zealand` New Zealand can turn up the dial on Russia in step with other countries. Is that what you're seeing, Lara? - Well, so first I'd like to acknowledge that the war is terrible and what's happening to people is incredibly awful, but, ultimately, one of the things that it comes back to within New Zealand's foreign policy is that, like, a lot of our foreign policy scholars point to this great myth that we can sort of 'punch above our weight', or that we can be this leading light or lead the world in some way ` that's not the reality. We are a small country, 5-odd-million people. And so I can see the need to be in step with the other nations and I can see the that's where Labour's position is. Currently, at the moment, although it's not about political point scoring, but we can see them conceding some ground to National and ACT over the autonomous sanctions bill. So I guess we'll just see how that plays out in parliament in the next couple weeks. - Rachel, Luxon did mention that he's, you know, that they met with Nanaia ` him and Gerry Brownlee met with Nanaia. Is that a sign of a more bipartisan approach? - Look, I don't know. Look, I think, unfortunately, the aggression and the scale of this attack leaves little room for nuance in some.... in some ways. However, you know, New Zealand, historically, hasn't been able to take sanctions. Unlike most Western countries, you know, we don't have our own formal sanctions mechanism. So if we were to put that into place and put this legislation in place, as I think Luxon is suggesting, that would be a real change from the approach that we've taken in the past. We have in the past gone along with the UN, which was set up by our forebears to try to, you know, avert situations like this. I think, you know, New Zealand, you know, as Lara said, we're very, very small. The impact that we can have is very, very little. And I think the way that, you know, President Putin tries to do things is he tries to control people, he tries to coerce them, manipulate them, force them into doing what he wants. Are we going to try and take that approach too? Are we going to try and coerce him into doing what we want? Is that how we want to approach this? Is punishment the best way? - Thank you very much, Rachel. That's all we have time for. Thank both of you. Dr Lara Greaves and Rachel MacGregor joining us on Newshub Nation. - And that's all from us for now. Nga mihi nui. Thank you for watching. - A tera wiki tatou tutaki ano ai ` we'll see you again next weekend. Noho ora mai. ('NEWSHUB NATION' THEME MUSIC) Captions by Jordan Waetford, Sophie Pearce and Jade Fernandes. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 This show was brought to you by the New Zealand On Air Public Interest Journalism Fund.