Ko Oriini Kaipara ahau. - And I'm Simon Shepherd. E haere ake nei ` coming up on Newshub Nation ` - The war in Europe continues. We cross live to our colleague Lisette Reymer, who is there. - The mega media merger ` what will it give us that we don't already have? Kris Faafoi joins us from Parliament. - And as Aotearoa New Zealand hits its peak, we check in with the World Health Organisation in Geneva on life after Omicron. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - Ata marie. Russia's war in Ukraine is worsening, with civilians trapped inside the port city of Mariupol, running low on food and water, and the U.N. condemning Russia for bombing a children's hospital there. - More than two million Ukrainians have fled the neighbouring countries, with another 1.8 million people displaced inside Ukraine. (EXPLOSIONS BOOM) - Please help us, I ask you. (EXPLOSIONS IN DISTANCE) ` Setting up a no-fly zone... would lead to a direct confrontation. - A Russian jet goes down in flames as Ukrainian residents cheer. (MAN SHOUTS) (BOOM!) - The siege of Mariupol is emerging as a desperate humanitarian situation. - And 20km from Kyiv, tanks square off. - Zelensky's immediate response was to ask ` how much longer would the world be an accomplice? - (CRIES) - Our colleague, Europe correspondent Lisette Reymer, has travelled from Ukraine back into Poland with camera operator Dan Pannett. - They're currently in the village of Medyka, right on the border with Ukraine. - And Lisette joins us live now. Lisette, what's the situation like there in Medyka? - Well, the latest numbers we have from the United Nations are that 2.5 million refugees have now left Ukraine. 1.5 million of those have come here to Poland, simply because it is the easiest to access from Ukraine. It is estimated that a further two million Ukrainians are displaced internally, and what is perhaps most horrifying is that the United Nations expects that number overall of Ukrainians who are forced to leave their country to rise to four million. And they are very quick to add that given, in three weeks, we have already seen those numbers surpass expectations, that four million number is very conservative as well. - Lisette, while you're on the ground there, who have you been talking to, and what are they saying? - Yeah, it's interesting, because over the time that we've been here, the conversations have changed quite dramatically. Those who we spoke to in the early days of the invasion, when the war had just started, were leaving their homes because they had seen the warnings. They had seen the news. They had predicted what was coming their way. And perhaps that is why they were trying to beat the war and flee the country. They had plans organised. They had stashes of money under the bed ready for this day. Now what we're seeing ` and certainly what we're hearing from the aid workers who are on the front line, day in, day out, meeting these refugees ` is that those who are leaving now are more desperate. They are in more distress, because they have had war arrive on their front doorstep. So they are telling stories of their own homes shaking from bomb blasts and seeing their neighbours run away from missile strikes and seeing that with their own eyes, and that is why they've left with nothing but their clothes on their backs and just hope that they can get to safety. One of the interesting statistics we heard from the Warsaw mayor today was that in the initial stages of this invasion, 95% of the refugees that arrived there had a place to go. They had arranged with friends and family to stay there. But now they are seeing that number's dropped to 70%, so 30% of those who show up have nowhere else to go, and they are fully relying on the humanitarian aid. - Right. Well, Poland has taken in 1.5 million Ukrainians. How are households accommodating so many people? - It is not an exaggeration to say this country is flooded with refugees. You can drive three hours from where we are here at the moment and still see refugees with suitcases at petrol station forecourts, at supermarket car parks, looking for their next ride, looking for their next lift to get somewhere to shelter. And Polish people have been incredibly welcoming, incredibly accommodating, and a lot of them have been providing that transport. A lot of people from around Europe have come and offered rides to other countries, even. But it is growing tired. There are refugee camps all over the place here that are running low on medical supplies, on clothing, on food, on water, and it has all been donated so far. So we're hearing from volunteers now that they really need some formal and sophisticated support from the government to help deal with this crisis, because volunteers who are giving up their day jobs at the moment to help out with this refugee crisis cannot sustain that. - Lisette, the shock of the week, no doubt, is what happened in Mariupol. How` Sorry. Russia destroyed, pretty much, airstrike` the airstrikes ` Russia destroying a maternity hospital. Is the campaign escalating? - Certainly, that shock is still being felt. That has not been diminished at all as the hours have gone by. People are still talking about how outrageous that attack was. The U.S. has called for an international investigation into Russia's war crimes. The U.S. Vice President Kamala Harris doubled down on that again today, said that any attack on civilian buildings is a war crime. Russia is adamant that it wasn't a deliberate target of civilians. That's worth noting. They are saying that they thought there were Ukrainian forces within that hospital, but certainly, things are escalating. The U.S. came out today and said that since the start of this invasion, 800 missiles have been fired from Russia to Ukraine, and that number is increasing exponentially. But what we've seen overnight is not only the escalation of this war but the widening of it. We saw the first attack in the far west of the country. This is not something we've seen for the duration of this invasion, so perhaps it signals to the widening of this war. We have also heard that perhaps that imminent invasion of Kyiv could happen now in the next couple of days. However, there is one piece of interesting insight you may have heard about. The 60km column of Russian military that was lined up outside Kyiv ` the latest satellite imagery shows that that has dispersed. So whether or not that is because they have been taken aback by the Ukrainian resistance, we don't know. But there is a lot of conversation and commentary about the fact that perhaps they are redeploying to other areas where they'll be more successful. - There have been top-level meetings between foreign ministers, yet there's still no resolution. Lisette, is diplomacy failing? - It's certainly not progressing. That latest meeting of the two foreign ministers from Ukraine and Russia in Turkey ` there were low expectations going into it. I think it delivered even less than what was expected. It was done and dusted within half an hour. That's far shorter than any of the other peace negotiations we've seen. But there is still an ongoing determination, especially from Ukraine's side, to get some diplomacy going. President Zelensky said prior to this latest meeting, that nothing really was going to be achieved unless both the presidents were face-to-face around the table and willing to negotiate. And I think perhaps as a show of goodwill, President Zelensky today, or this week, made a rather significant U-turn on two significant issues ` one being the independence of those two territories in the east that have been the position of ongoing conflict. And the second point about` Ukraine's adamant` they've been adamant the whole time that they want to join NATO. Now, President Zelensky has indicated he would be willing to compromise on both of those points. He's not willing to surrender. But the fact that he is willing to get around the table with President Putin and be open-minded about two such significant issues is a major indication of where he is sitting in terms of how badly this war needs to come to an end. - Lisette, thank you very much for that update. We're sending all our thoughts to both you and Dan and everyone over there in Poland and the Ukraine. Tena koe. If you've got a news tip, get in touch with us. - We're on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. Or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. - E whai ake nei ` we dissect the week's political news with our panel. - But before that, the media merger announced Thursday ` What will it give us that we don't already have? Broadcasting Minister Kris Faafoi in Parliament. but, back here, Ukrainian New Zealanders are desperate to get their families out of danger. Immigration Minister Kris Faafoi has said he's considering border exemptions for those family members. I interviewed him in Parliament on Friday and began by asking him ` what's the hold up? - We'll be considering that early next week. We've obviously seen a deteriorating situation in Ukraine. We spoke to the UNHCR earlier this week about just how bad it is. It's as bad as it's been reporting, if not worse. Obviously, the conditions in and around the neighbouring countries for those who are displaced is tough. So that's where the support has been asked for. So, we stand ready in terms of refugees, but they haven't come to an ask yet, so when they come through with an official ask in terms of the UNHCR, we will. But, as you mentioned, for those Ukrainian families here in New Zealand, we'll be considering that early next week. - Because I've been speaking to a family, they've` a Ukrainian woman who's a Kiwi citizen. She's flown to Poland in the hope of finding her parents, who've been displaced by the war. They've had to had to flee it. When she gets there, she won't know what to do. Can she bring them back? - Well, as I say, early next week, the cabinet will look into those situations about how we can further help, especially the likes of Ukrainian families here who want to bring parents back. Obviously, we've taken the measures to extend visas for those temporary visa holders who are here. Dependants and partners of Ukrainians who are citizens and residents here in New Zealand, obviously, are able to come across. And the border exemption, I think, for Ukrainians who have visas, is helpful as well. The outstanding issue, obviously, is the decision we'll take early next week. But it's clear that the situation is deteriorating exponentially by the day. - Why isn't that already in place. - Well, it's not. - Why not? - Well, the border complications don't help at the moment. And usually, in these situations, we take in refugees, but there's` but there isn't anything in place at the moment, which is why we're considering it at the moment. - But the governments in the past have done this, haven't they, like, say, for Bosnia or Kosovo? - In the past, cabinet has made` previous cabinets have made decisions about what kind of special direction or special visa can be afforded to the given situation, and as I say, we'll be taking that into consideration. - So, to get into New Zealand on humanitarian grounds when there's a war in your country, what do I have to do? - For wider families, that's when the government has to make a decision in these situations whether or not it extends the visa settings that it has. We're going through that process as we speak, and hopefully we'll have a decision early next week. So, to those families, and we've engaged with many of them, the officials at Immigration have certainly done that` - Because you're getting representations to your office. - Oh, absolutely. You know, we've seen them in the media. I've seen some pretty emotional pleas in the inbox as well. We know something needs to be done. That's what we take into consideration. - Can you guarantee those families that you'll have some sort of decision next week whether there will be a pathway to get into New Zealand? - As I've said, there's going to be a consideration of that early next week. I think they can probably take that as a signal. - Great. All right. We'll take that as a yes. But, then again, two million refugees so far in this war. And, I mean, you did mention that you haven't been asked yet by the United Nations High Commissioner for refugees. - Yeah. It's still very early days. - Sure. In the war, it is. But if they do ask, what will you say? - We have stepped up there in the past. We have increased our refugee quota from 750 to 1500 to be able to increase our capacity to do more in these situations. We reached out of the UNHCR earlier this week. They say the biggest priority at the moment, as people are fleeing Ukraine into the neighbouring countries, is to make sure that those neighbouring countries actually have the support to be able to help those people as they arrive at the border. And, as time goes ` and we all want this to be resolved as quickly as possible, but things are obviously escalating ` as they develop how they deal with the people who are leaving, if there's an ask, and we're expecting one, we will step up. - OK. Let's talk about another portfolio ` the broadcasting announcement this week. So, the new public media entity, the merger. So, Television New Zealand and Radio New Zealand will become subsidiaries of this new public media entity eventually, won't they? So, what's wrong with the way that they're operating now? - Well, they've actually done an extremely good job over the last, you know, decades. The problem is the future. If you see the audiences and the way that they're changing, the way that they are consuming their media, some important audiences, I think, in New Zealand aren't using public media. - Right. - And I think if those audiences are changing, so does our public media. - So, you talk about those audiences that aren't being reached by our public media. What are those audiences? - Look, if you look at the NZ On Air research, where are` where are the audiences, it is the likes of Maori and Pasifika, other ethnic communities, who are using online platforms as opposed to traditional radio and television, where the predominance of public media is at the moment, to access their content. - Right. - Now, I think, as well as those audiences and younger audiences, who are, kind of, accessing more on demand, I think it's really important that the kind of public media type of content is reaching them as well. - Why`? - I don't think our current set up, and certainly our legislation, is set up for radio and television. Now, you know and I know that audience is changing, the way that our kids and young people are changing the way that they access content, so we've got to change with it. - OK, if you say that, you know, RNZ and TVNZ have been doing very well in the last decade, is this particular part of the audience worth throwing it all up in the air and bringing it back down in the new public media entity for one particular part of the audience? - We've got make sure that public media ` and we've been served extremely well by those two entities ` is fit for the future, for everyone. There's been a` There is a huge reliance, from New Zealanders, on public media, in terms of the strength of the content, the local content, the trust in the news and current affairs that, you know, if something happens, they will trust it. So, I think, to make sure we are future-proofing public media, not just the entities, for the future, as audiences change, as platforms are much more freer to be available as platforms to use for media, then I think that's what we need to make sure that we set this thing up for. - So, if you're going to future-proof a public media entity, does that mean that it's going to make it harder for the commercial sort of competition? I mean, is the budget going to be so big for this new entity that the commercial competition's not going to be able to have as big a slice of the pie? - Look, this thing is going to have a very strong public media mandate. I think some of the criticism in the past, especially about Television New Zealand, is that, while it was state-owned, it had a very strong commercial focus, certainly from the representation from the company that you're part of and its predecessor, they certainly spoke to Government about that. I think what you need to see as part of the new driver behind` one of the new drivers behind the new entity is that it has to work alongside or collaborate in places where it thinks that that's going to work, but also, when it does things, it has to be wider` mindful of the wider media market to ensure that it's healthy. If I took a trip back about two years, as COVID hit, you know, the plurality in New Zealand's media market could have taken quite a big tumble, and that was quite a scary thing for a government to contemplate. - Sure. - So, I think, we want to make sure that, for content reasons and local content reasons, we have a strong public media mandate` media entity. - Yeah. - But also, for the health of the wider market that it can work with` - But just on that point ` a variety of media outlets, you know, a variety of the audiences being served. Your own research that you commissioned said that it's currently well-served by a plurality of media. So, why change it? I mean, that research was given to you at the end of last year. - Yeah, and we want to make sure that we keep it. And, I think, one of the things in the past or one of the criticisms in the past is that public media has been in direct competition and, therefore, puts other commercial media entities at risk. - So, we're talking about TVNZ there, right? - Well, certainly, that's some of the messages that we got from the senior leadership of MediaWorks at the time. Just like, you know, 'We're finding it hard to make a buck if this is the way it's going to be.' - So TVNZ will be less competitive under this new model? - Well, the media entity will have to be mindful of the wider media market when it does things. It will have Crown revenue. It will continue to have commercial revenue. But when it does things, it's not just about itself and the local content and the diverse audiences we want to make sure it reaches, but, also, it's got to be mindful of what impact that's going to have on the wider market, because we need to maintain that plurality. We've got a lot a small country ` five million people. If we lose much capacity out of our media market, I don't think that's a good thing for both the democracy and the content as well. - OK. What international model are you basing this on this? - It's not` We've done a lot of work to make sure that we get this right for New Zealand. - Right. So, you're not lifting a model from the ABC or the CBC or RTE? - No, no. We've gone away and done the work. I mean, some people have criticised us for how long this has taken, but we wanted to make sure we go away and do the work and build this in for New Zealand. It's about local audiences and local content and making sure we get it right for us. No one else is going to tell our stories, and we think that's important to make sure that public media in the future, when, you know, audiences are accessing their content in a different way, need to see that content. - We've seen throughout the pandemic, like, a deep sense of mistrust of media and particularly media funded by the government. I mean, is this going to exacerbate that, because it's seen that there's going to be a bigger public media entity? - Look, I think, some in politics and some who have got a beef with the, kind of, current situation at the moment have been pushing that. But that doesn't change the fundamental challenge. In early 2020, we floated this as an in-principle decision. We went away and did the work. Because there are real challenges there, and we need to make sure that trust in the wider media is there. And I think they've... I think the public do trust our media. That was extremely important in the very early stages of the COVID outbreak. But we've got to make sure that we strengthen that long-term as well. - Are you fighting the right battle here? Isn't the bigger threat, really, the Facebook and the Googles? Shouldn't that be the work? - There's more than one challenge. You know, I think making sure that we look after our own entities and make sure that public media is strong in the future has, obviously, been the big project. You know, there's an issue with the other platforms at the moment that has been long-standing. I won't say too much because there's some Commerce Commission action that could possibly happen there in terms of some of the dealings that some of our media companies are having with the likes of Google and Facebook. But that's one of the enduring challenges` - Can you enlighten me on that? - Well, obviously, some of them want to bargain collectively with some of those platforms, and the Commerce Commission will make its own mind up about whether they will let that happen. But, you know, the revenue issues around advertising have been long-standing issues, issues that have frustrated traditional media companies for some time, and that is an issue that still needs to be worked through. - OK. Let's move on to another big portfolio for you, and this includes hate speech, right? So, I mean, last year, you told this programme that you hoped the laws would be before Parliament by early this year. Where are they up to? - Well, we haven't developed them that quickly. I think, as you would have seen from the public reaction to that, I think it showed us that much more care needed to be taken to make sure that, you know, I think, the intent is genuine to make sure that those laws land in the right place. But we also don't want to inflame the very issue that we are trying to fix here. - Because Tuesday is going to mark three years since the Christchurch attacks, and, you know, the hate speech was a key legislative` - Component of the Royal Commission. - Yeah, component of the Royal Commission. And so, there's a big time lag there, and we're expecting it. - Yeah, and I want to make sure we get that right. I think, one of the` one of the things that came out of a concern of the reaction to us undertaking that work or starting that work is we think it actually kind of whipped up the very thing we're trying to prevent. - Was that what we saw out in the front of Parliament? You know, because how could` - That was a lot of everything. - Yeah. But could hate speech laws there have, you know, dampened that kind of reaction? Could they have affected that? - No, because I think that was a collection of a whole lot of different things happening out the front. You know, there are laws already in place that can take care of some of the things that were being said out there. You know, and` In amongst all of that may have been some of that, but I think that was a collection of people who were, obviously, expressing their right to protest. - Some of the language used out there was, you know, inciteful, and so that would be hate speech, right? - Well, it would depend. - Words like, 'Hang Him High,' was chalked on the forecourt of Parliament. - And as I say, the regime is not in place, and I'm not going to get myself into a situation where we were in the previous Nation interview where you start nickel-and-diming everything. It's important that those` that that stream of work continues because of the commitment that we made at the Royal Commission. But I'm not about to go and do that and start inflaming the very situation we're trying to prevent. - All right. So you don't want to nickel-and-dime it. I understand that. But we are waiting for this. It's been I don't know how long since you brought that discussion paper out. We need some more clarification on the hate speech laws. When are we going to see them? - Look, we're still working on it. There are options about how we might be able to deal with it in the future to take, I think, some of the public heat out of it, and we're working through that at the moment. - You've got three really busy portfolios. But I would say to you that you've been keeping quite a low profile in the last year. Are you enjoying your job? - Oh, look, absolutely. It's a privilege. I've come from being a journalist at this place to being an MP in this place to being a Minister of the Crown. I'm busy. I want to get on with it, because I want to get things done. People have criticised me that, you know, yeah, I might not be doing as many media interviews. I've got a job to do, and I've got to deliver, and I think I'm making sure I get on with things. - Will you be standing in 2023? - Oh, look, that's a decision that I haven't made yet. And it's a decision that I will take` taking into account this place and the place that I love, home, as well. So, I'm loving my job now. And I think it's, to all the criticism out there, it's a job I've just got to get on with. - Minister Kris Faafoi there. Taro ake ` the news of the week with our political panel, Agnes Loheni and Aliya Danzeisen. Plus ` when Omicron has peaked, what's next? The future of the pandemic, live with Dr Margaret Harris from the World Health Organisation in Geneva. I'm joined now by our panel ` former National list MP Agnes Loheni and President of the Islamic Women's Council Aliya Danzeisen. Thank you so much for your time this morning, for joining us on the panel. Agnes, to you first. Kris Faafoi is likely to announce a sort of special visa for Ukrainians' wider families to come here, because nothing currently exists. I found that surprising. Do you? - Yes, that was very surprising. You know, but it's fair to say that what's happened over in the Ukraine has been a topic that's probably taken us` our minds off of what we're going through here. New Zealanders have a lot of heart for refugees who have found themselves in this situation, and we'd rightly want to have some information about our capacity, and the ability, and what we can do for these refugees. - Yeah, Aliya, what can we do? Should we` I mean, the government's saying, 'Yeah, we're reaching out to the UNHCR saying, you know, '"If we can help with refugees, we will."' But we have an annual quota of about 1500. I mean, do you feel like that's enough? - Well, with New Zealand, we have a lot of resources, that we can actually support more people than` than have been. For example, we produce food for 11 million people and we only have five million people in the country. So we obviously have some capacity to bring in more people. And families, obviously are` that connection is extremely important to New Zealand` New Zealanders who are already here. So that would actually be avoiding some trauma, while providing support to people who really need it. So I... I believe it needs to happen, not just in this case, it's happened in previous cases, and we've got to make sure that we're supporting our whanau wherever they are. - Yeah, just` just finally on that point, it seems to me slightly odd that we have had this in separate` in previous cases, like Bosnia, and Kosovo, and other war-torn areas, and yet we have to reinvent the wheel again when another war breaks out around the world. - Well, that's where the proactive efforts by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, immigration, and governments generally need to get things in place in those rules, so things can be launched quickly in` in such rising cases; but also just generally being more diplomatic and` and being involved internationally... - Hmmm. - ...to know what we need before it happens, actually. - OK, let's move on to our next topic, which is the merger of the new public media entity that Kris Faafoi has announced. Agnes, does this kind of reshaping of public media seem logical to you? - No, not really, and I think it's interesting, when he commented saying that this is about future-proofing ` innovation doesn't come via the government, it isn't driven by the government, and definitely not by anything that's publicly funded. So in terms of the minister saying that we want to tell our own stories, well, that's already happening. People are picking up their phone, and they are telling their stories without any government funding. So I'm still not sure what the problem is that is being fixed here. - Right. Although he is saying that the public media needs to be part of that space to reach those audiences. Aliya, I mean, Agnes is saying it's already happening, and we also have New Zealand On Air here as a` as a funder of those kinds of programmes. Do you think there does need to be public media that's more reflective of different cultures and younger audiences? - Yes, public media at times has been more progressive in areas in the past, and it allows for support of communities, and... authentic voice. At times, we know while everybody has a phone, we know not everybody is accurate on their phone, and we need some... some... media that are providing really good, authentic, and trustworthy advice. So it can work ` my concern more is that the government having influence on that voice once it comes` becomes so large, and in there, and actually directing what the voice says. And that's a concern. And given that the establishment board... - Right. - ...hasn't been given those details yet, we don't know if it will work. - Yeah, Agnes, that's just one last point on that. I mean, there is sort of, you know, some mistrust of media. There's been quite a bit of that. And in terms of being government funded, is this plan going to reassure people? Or is it going to exacerbate that? - I don't think there's any reassurance that's gonna come from this. And just back to the point where the minister was talking about` when you asked about overseas modelling, you know, he was very evasive on that, and it suggests that it perhaps hasn't been done. So, again, when we talk about` the government was talking about the podium of truth, and so that's sort of been a lot of their undoing in this last period, where they've decided that, you know, the truth can only come from their podium. And so there does have to be trust built back in ` I'm not sure that's going to happen with this merger. - Let's move on to another of the big portfolios for Kris Faafoi, and now he's responsible for hate speech. Brought out the discussion paper last year and got a lot of kickback. So we've just heard, Aliya, that these laws are still not ready. Is that good enough? - That just hits and hits hard. It's not correct. He has commissioners the government themselves put into the Royal Commission, and they said it was needed, and... the hate speech proposal ` it's not even legislation ` did not inflame what was happening before parliament, and it was offensive for him to say that, actually. What` What is needed, and it should have happened right away, was addressing the` the at-risk communities that the Royal Commission found. Why the current government isn't willing to step into that space, when their own prime minister said the week after the attacks that 'the hate is a virus, that's left unattended will spread,' which is what exactly happened ` it was left unattended for three years here, and we're continuing forward. It's going to get larger unless they actually act. - So, Agnes, would you agree that` with Aliya's point there, that, you know, maybe if they had acted earlier, brought it in, that we may not have had the hate viruses, Aliya puts it, spread to in front of parliament. - Ah, (SIGHS) no, actually, I don't. Actually I thought the minister's response was a very good, honest, reflective one. I think after the train-wreck interviews, when they brought up the discussion document last year, they've good case for causing this, and giving it very good, careful consideration. And so this is definitely a policy area that I think should not be rushed. - I'm wondering why religion should be protected under the hate speech legislation. I wonder why... LBGTQ communities, as well, who are in there. And it would be nice to know why the government, and why other parties then don't think that it's a reason to be supported, when we have respected commissioners, judge of this nation, and somebody from government themselves saying it was needed, after they've looked into all of this. - So, Aliya, I mean, you're disappointed with the time frame, but, Agnes, you say that` I mean, Kris Faafoi is saying he didn't want to inflame the situation, the situation was inflamed, though ` we already had that in front of parliament. I didn't really quite understand what he meant by that. - No, and the thing is, we actually do have laws to cover when you incite violence through speech. But again, when they came out nasty with that discussion document, and the threshold appeared much lower in terms of around things that were insulting, and so this does need to take time, and it's not a difficult one, I think, for the minister. And so I thought` I did like to likes his response this morning. - Aliya, I mean, what would you say to the minister about the time frame? - Well, I think` OK, regarding inflamed, we have attacks on mosques because of religion, and that was clearly violent ` people died ` and are we going to let it happen again? And the aspect also regarding hate speech is it might start out for one person to feel like it's... it's only a word or two, but when it's actually ongoing, and reaching levels that it has, then it is harmful and it needs to be addressed. - Mmmm. Yeah, so the minister specifically said` he didn't say that hate speech inflamed things outside parliament, he said he didn't want to 'inflame the issues by talking about it.' - But it's already inflamed. It's already inflamed. The hate is there. It's been allowed to grow, and it hasn't been addressed. And the actual fact is there are some groups in this community in New Zealand that are not protected under the legislation. It's not just changing language, there are unprotected groups, and that's what the concern is. - Agnes, do you believe that the current proposal, I mean, that they had words like 'insulting' in the actual definition of hate speech that you were talking about from a year ago, should that be removed? Are you saying that they should be` those things should be removed to guarantee freedom of expression? - Definitely, I think that threshold was far too low, for someone to say something to you that's insulting. If you look across the various examples that that would cover, that would be hugely problematic ` hugely problematic. - OK. All right, we'll leave that debate there for the moment. I'm sure we're going to see more details soon. Thank you so much to our panel, Aliya Danzeisen and Agnes Loheni. E whai ake nei ` insights from the World Health Organisation epidemiologist Dr Margaret Harris on life after omicron has peaked. Plus, National's Melissa Lee gives us her verdict on the government's broadcasting plan ` and, spoiler alert, she's not a fan. just five minutes to sell your on their ideas. National's broadcasting spokesperson, Melissa Lee, has blasted the mega merger as a massive waste of time and money. So what would she do differently? Kairipoata Finn Hogan started by asking ` what's her number one problem with the current proposal? - They've spent millions and millions of dollars in consultants and working groups, and they're effectively creating another working group ` the establishment board, who will decide what's gonna happen to RNZ and TVNZ. So it is a complete waste of time, millions and millions of dollars. - But there is a problem that they're addressing, right? There are half as many journalists in New Zealand as there were in 2008. What would National do differently to ensure we've got a functioning fourth estate? - Well, I'd like to know what the problem is, because effectively, they're wanting to spend, effectively, $14.2 million more than what they've already spent to establish the new entity, which we don't even know what that is. And, you know, petrol is actually costing $3. Inflation is the second in the world. And yet... - Sure. We're talking about journalism here, though. We're talking about journalism. There are half as many` - Let me finish my sentence. Very expensive entity where that money could be spent elsewhere. - But the overall trend lines for journalism are dire. There are fewer journalists. There are fewer outlets. Circulation numbers are down. Surely National's got some plan that's not just taking a hands-off approach and letting the market sort it out. - Well, I think this is the whole problem. They've actually had working groups. They've had consultants. And ultimately, what they've actually come with is actually absolutely no answer. Where did that actually lead us to? So where is the answer? I'd like to know. They've spent millions of` - I'd like to know National's answer, though. - No, no. But the thing is that we're not the government, right? So the government has actually spent millions of dollars in consultants to look at the industry. Where is the answer? And their answer is merging a two entity that is actually operating independently and quite well in competition with the private entities and effectively reducing the size into one. - OK, let's say National becomes government next election. Would you leave the merger in place as it is? - Well, it depends where it is. I mean, it depends on what's actually happened and if it's actually established already and if it's actually working fine. Why would you actually fix something that's actually working fine, just like now? I mean, what is the problem that the minister decided that he has this end solution, the answer, when he hasn't actually looked at the problem? What is the problem that he's actually trying to solve? - You tweeted around the merger a red star, which typically denotes communism. I'm just wondering what you mean about that. - I think it was actually a reaction to the tweet that somebody actually said, effectively calling the new entity PRAVDA. So it was a bit of a joke. - Yeah, sure. But the insinuation there is that the journalists there are going to be mouthpieces of the state. - Well, I mean, you know, apparently public journalism is about, you know, public interest. You know, when the government is fully funding a media entity, you would have to actually sort of say ` are they really independent? Probably not. - But this model is pretty common around the world. We see some of the models in Australia. We see them in Ireland. We see them in England. These aren't exactly communist states. - Well, no. In terms of going back to the comment about the different public interest` public media that is operating overseas, if you look at the Irish model, apparently that's actually the model that the minister is actually basing on. I mean, it's going through a major financial crisis. And why are we following a model that is actually going through a crisis? - The real competition isn't really between newsrooms; it's between newsrooms and tech giants. What would National do to help level that playing field? - I think good competition is the best option that we have and make sure that the businesses are sustainable. And, you know, when you actually have` for example, you had a situation with Facebook and Googles in Australia where they were saying, well, you know, they're putting news on their platforms without paying for the content. And I understand some of it. But the thing is that you also need to look at the flipside. A lot of the news platforms are getting benefit from people sharing those content on Facebooks. Let me` Let me finish` - They're getting exposure, but they're losing all their money. - No, no, no, exposure, but if those platforms are monetising your news content, then they should pay for it. And I've always said that. - Right. So exactly what would that look like under National? - Well, that's exactly it. It's like, you know... - You'd follow the Australian model? - Not necessarily, because I think Australian model had some issues. It's like, you know, boom, you need to pay money` - But you'd be making Facebook pay for the news content it uses. - If I am sharing your news content on my Facebook, and I'm giving you publicity, are you giving me commission? No, you're not. The thing is, it's like, if people are putting their` your news to actually promote it, and actually you get eyeballs on that, you benefit for it, but if those platforms are using your news content to monetise it, to make money for their company, they should pay for that. - Finally, the recent poll for National ` some of the first good news the party's had in a long time. If you win next election, what portfolios are you gunning for? - I guess I've been focussed on media for quite some time, so hopefully I will be responsible for media. - Koia tera ko te mangai paho o Nahinara ` National's broadcast spokesperson Melissa Lee. Taihoa, e haere ` we'll be back after the break. like ` when should we lift the vaccine mandates and what kinds of variants can we expect? - Dr Margaret Harris is an epidemiologist and community medicine specialist with the World Health Organisation in Geneva, and she joins us now. Tena koe, Dr Harris. Thank you for joining us. How does New Zealand's COVID response compare globally? - Good morning. Well, New Zealand has been one of the countries that has really managed a very, very good global response, particularly getting the testing, the tracing, tracking, and your vaccination rates have really caught up, and you've got more than 82% of people vaccinated. But, like every country facing, particularly, Omicron, which is a very, very transmissible, the most transmissible version of this, it's a challenge, and this is a struggle that countries around the world are continuing to face. - Yeah. At the moment, New Zealand is sitting at 95% double-dosed vaccinated. We achieved that largely, partly, through mandates. Do you think, Dr Harris, it's time for New Zealand to end its vaccination mandate system? - So, we, ideally, would like to see that communities don't need to go to mandates, that they can understand that this is a benefit for all to be vaccinated, but sometimes countries have to make decisions that way in order to protect, particularly the vulnerable populations. But, ideally, it's something that comes best from individuals understanding that, really, this is a great gift from science that is keeping people both out of hospital and, more importantly, out of the cemetery. - Mm. In October, we dropped our elimination strategy. What did you make of that timing? - So, countries, again, make their decisions based on their epidemiology and particularly on their vaccination rates and on how they see things. Now, for many countries, Omicron has really raced in and ripped through communities. But the critical thing is ` have you been able to manage your hospital system? Have you been able to keep people out of hospital? Have you been able to really track it and trace it so you know what's going on? - Hmm. What about our vaccine roll out? What do you make of that? - So, we don't have the detail on your vaccine roll out, but the fact that you've managed to get your population vaccinated to that level is really good. But the crucial thing for every country ` I'm not specifically saying New Zealand ` is to make sure that the most vulnerable people ` that's older people, people who have underlying illnesses, people who may be isolated and also health care workers ` you really need to try to get to 100% vaccination in those groups. - Absolutely. One of the criticisms, though, is that New Zealand was late to prioritise Maori and Pasifika who are part of those vulnerable communities. What recommendations do you give to governments around the world in terms of prioritising indigenous communities in their vaccination roll out plans or in their COVID response plans? - This is a really important point you raise, and many other countries have had the same sorts of issues in that they've had groups in society who are isolated, either culturally, linguistically, or even, sometimes, geographically ` there may be older people who simply can't get to where the vaccination is. So, it is critical, and we have said this from the beginning, to look at who needs to be vaccinated first and how are you going to make sure you can get the vaccine to them, and really, really focus on that. The other thing that's critical is trust. You have groups within all societies that haven't necessarily got the trust in authorities that all of` most of the population have. So you really have to look at ` are there groups who aren't accessing the vaccines because there may be a lack of trust? And how can you overcome that? - Dr Harris, I want to bring in here ` globally, a minority are rejecting the science. How is the dis` and misinformation impacting on the global response? - Certainly, we've seen a real misinformation ` we call it an infodemic ` that has been almost as difficult to deal with as the actual epidemic created by the virus, because, again, if people are given wrong information or, again, they're given information that leads to mistrust, they don't take the actions that really protect their health. So` And I have to say, I thank you, everybody else in the media, who has been working very hard to get the right information out. You've really been fantastic partners in this. - Omicron BA.2 is becoming our dominant variant here in New Zealand. What will that mean for us? - Well, BA.2 is highly transmissible, like BA.1, but BA.2 does seem to have an even greater advantage. So, that means you have to be aware that you've got something that moves from person to person very, very quickly, so you have to do the things that prevent that. One of the critical things, of course, is mask wearing, especially when you're in an indoor space. Another really important thing is ventilation, making sure that you really can have the airflow, so the thing's in the air, but you don't want it to come in` you don't want to breathe it in. - Are vaccines, though, keeping up with the emerging variants? - The vaccines, yes, so far, they're doing what they were set out to do. When the target product profiles were set, the aim of the vaccine was to keep people out of hospital and to keep them from dying. They're doing that very well. What they're not doing so well is preventing the transmission, and that's been one of the confusing things, because people thought, 'Oh, if I'm vaccinated, I can't give it to somebody else,' but you can. The critical thing, the reason to be vaccinated, is to prevent you from getting severely ill and, of course, to prevent you from dying. - With the likelihood of a new variant emerging in the near or distant future, will we be expected to get a new vaccine every year, every time, just like the flu shot? - Now, this is a question that, certainly, our best minds in vaccinology and immunology are looking at right now. At the moment` And we've got a group that meets very regularly to look at this. At the moment, the vaccines we have are doing the job, but we do have second- and third-generation vaccines, some that will be given in the nose, just as drops, perhaps, so they may be better at preventing transmission, because they're working locally. There will be others with different delivery systems. So it's not clear whether it would be one shot a year, or perhaps you take the shot if you see a rise in cases in your community, which may happen at any time of the year. It's not even clear that this virus will become seasonal. At the moment, it's raging all times of the year. - Hmm. Dr Anthony Fauci has said the world may be past the worst of the pandemic. Do you believe that? - He was talking from a part of the world that has seen its peak move, and we're seeing a small drop. We saw a 6% drop in cases in the last week, but we're also seeing a huge rise in East Asia and the Pacific. So... And I was looking at the cases that were` the countries that were recording the greatest number of cases in the last 24 hours, and they were from all parts of the globe. They were from Europe, they were from Brazil, the USA, but also Asia-Pacific. So we are still in the middle of a raging pandemic. - And how well do you believe that we are all prepared, but especially us here in New Zealand, prepared for any future pandemics? - If we take to heart the lessons we've learned, if we've understood that science and the scientific community really, really led the way in an extraordinary way, not just by being brilliant and finding solutions but working together so collaboratively. Now, other parts of the response weren't so good. In some parts of the world, politics really interfered with a good response. So if we could learn to use the science, use our hearts, work together, do the things that make sense, we will be much better when the next one comes, and it will come. - Hmm. A recent report from WHO suggests that the pandemic has increased anxiety and depression by 25% across the globe. What's your concerns there and what can we do here, in New Zealand, to ensure that the mental health system is, in fact, prepared for, you know, that sort of issue? - Certainly, it's really important that` people have had a real dislocation for the last two years, overseeing big, big changes to their lives, to their work lives, their school lives. They've had this threat of an uncertain future ahead of them. I would say, yes, first of all, really bolster up your services, really ensure that people have an opportunity to deal with what issues are arising. Make sure that you... inject a little kindness, also, into your daily life. I would also say some hope ` even though it's been a horrible two years, we also have learned a great deal, we've achieved a great deal as humanity, and I truly believe that the best of us, what is the best in us, will continue to grow as we come out of this. - Mm. Thank you` Thank you very much for your time this morning. We very much appreciate it. Dr Margaret Harris there from the World Health Organisation. - Right. Time now for our panel again ` Former National List MP Agnes Loheni and President of the Islamic Women's Council Aliya Danzeisen. Thanks for your time again. So, this coming Tuesday marks the three-year anniversary of the Christchurch mosque attacks, Aliya. Is our level of progress as a nation where it should be? - I think, generally, as community, we're doing quite well, and people are realising the importance of being a community, and so that progress within the community is definitely where we're moving ahead. I` We do have a concern related to security and intelligence, to be honest. That was the focus of some of the failures that happened. - Right, but that's still ` you still have that concern. - And particularly around` Yeah. - OK. Agnes, I mean, what we've seen just recently in front of Parliament and some of the more extremist views there, does that give you reassurance that we have actually moved on or not? - I think, what happened in front of Parliament was unfortunate, but I think it's also around just the sheer frustration that people are feeling, particularly over this past year, around the response to COVID, the Government's, you know, mishandling of a number of issues. you know, for example, the RAT tests and a number of other things. So, that` - But there were more` Just to be fair, there were more extremist views in front of Parliament. - Yeah, there were some extreme views, and, you know, I think, again, there are people that did lose jobs, but there are other issues there around just general frustration. And not just in Parliament. I think across the country, there was` there's just a general feeling that things could be handled a lot better. - Aliya, I mean, from what you saw in front of Parliament, did that disconcert you in terms of intelligence and feeling within the community from that right-wing perspective, perhaps? - Yeah, a lot of those people were known, and the aspect is that there were a lot of issues standing alongside of what is an orchestrated, well-managed campaign from behind where those known people related to hate were motivating a... on a range of issues, and other people got tied up into it. No question people are frustrated because of the pandemic, and no question people are frustrated with world events. But the actual` what happened in front of Parliament was an amalgamation of extreme views that should, while be able to be expressed, in the sense of people expressing their opinion to the extent that was happening in Parliament and in front of it? No. - OK. We talk about frustration, and I wonder` I just want to move on to a political poll this week, which showed that it's sort of, like, game on for election 2023 ` a rise for National. Is that just because that frustration has boiled over, Agnes, into that particular poll? - Well, I think a lot of it, actually, is to do with, now that COVID isn't taking it up as much of our space in our heads any more, we're actually now looking at the cost of living. And cost of living hasn't just arrived this term. Cost of living was actually an issue in the previous term. It's just that there was no space to actually talk about those issues. And so, now we have that ability to bring it forward, and people are seeing it every day when they go to the supermarket, when they go to the petrol pump, and so no surprise there. But also, look, the last polls were also pointing this direction, so it's a directional change. But, you know, it's still a year and a half out, and it's definitely not over. - I just wonder, though, Aliya, is it fair that the cost of living is being pinned on the government in terms of this poll, because a lot of it is, you know, pandemic or global related? - Well, poli` good politicians adapt to the circumstances that they're handed, and we saw Prime Minister Ardern really handle the COVID situation and get in front of it. And if you compare the deaths that happened overseas to how we've been able to save lives in New Zealand, that aspect is extremely` a good example of how she handled that proactive. She's got to do the same thing, and her government has to do the same thing, related to inflation. The causes for inflation are supply and demand. So we've got to start getting traffic going and support for that back and forth. The petrol situation is caused by a war overseas. That diplomacy ` start showing that you're` you want to get some things resolved so that we can move forward from there as well ` would help alleviate those circumstances. Good politicians will start addressing it. Now, I would say National did not` is benefiting from circumstances overseas more than what's` - So, by that, Aliya ` we'll just finish off. Agnes, that means that is Chris Luxon a good politician for getting in front of the issue and using it? - Oh, absolutely, he is getting in front of the issues. He's more in touch with what's happening on the ground with families, with mums and dads, up and down this country, who are struggling, with small business owners. And I think, it's highlighted this week, the Prime Minister, that she is seen as being out of touch. And that is possibly, you know` It's a death knell for a politician to be seen as out of touch with, you know, with families. - OK, we'll leave it there. Our panellists, thank you so much. Agnes Loheni and Aliya Danzeisen, thank you so much for your time today. - Thank you. - Koira nga take a Newshub Nation mo tenei wiki. That's all from us for now. Thank you for watching. - Nga mihi nui. And we will see you again next weekend. Captions by Alex Walker, Sophie Pearce and Jade Fernandes. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - This show was brought to you by the NZ On Air Public Interest Journalism Fund.