- Well, look, Luxon has taken the fourth spot in overall engagement, which is respectable, but Ardern still has a massive lead in terms of overall followers. But when you dig into the numbers, for the first time, Ardern has actually lost followers in a 30-day period. And look, again, the numbers are still huge, but for the first time since becoming prime minister, her page is shrinking, and I do think that's significant or symbolic. - So the shine of Jacinda-mania is well and truly gone ` at least, on social media? - What Labour is experiencing is the double edged sword of having Ardern so totally dominate their brand and image. Like, for example, if we look at Google Trends search data, searches for Ardern just dominate searches for Luxon, nationwide. But if we change the search terms to searches for National versus searches for Labour, that reverses. The National Party is the most searched for party right across the country, except in Gisborne. And I don't know why, but maybe it's just the Gayford clan keeping the area red. And if we can infer anything from that, I think it's that the National Party brand, independent of its leader, still has a potency that maybe Labour is lacking. - Right. So, how are the party pages doing, specifically? - Well, I mean, as we've spoken about here, Labour still has a bit of an edge, but the National Party page is beating them across a few different metrics. But if we look at the minor parties, we're seeing a bit of a hangover from the parliamentary process and the fact that the Outdoors Party, who frequently flirt with anti-vax and anti-mandate conspiracy, beating every other minor party in terms of overall engagement, which means that, you know, what motivated some of the fringe elements of that protest has now returned to its home online. - Well, that's not the only misinformation we're seeing online at the moment, is it? - Yes. Look, Simon, there is a tsunami of misinformation regarding Russia's invasion of Ukraine and it is reaching New Zealand. In fact, the Russian embassy to New Zealand has posted some very unsubstantiated claims to its Facebook regarding biological weapons programmes in Ukraine and Russia's attack on a maternity hospital. It's renewed calls from National for the Russian ambassador to be expelled. And of course, it's raised that question we've been tackling all year ` what can or should tech giants do to combat misinformation on their platform? And we're no closer to an answer. - Before we go, as always, we end with an honourable mention. Who is it? - Well, look, Simon, it could be only one. It has to be Simon Bridges, the former leader, the former minister, then the unlikely social media star in the twilight of his career after befriending a yak. Look, he's dished out a fair amount of flak on social media. He's copped a fair amount of flak, too. But he's been a fixture of our political discourse for many years, and both Parliament and social media are going to be a little less colourful without him. - All right. Digital Editor Finn Hogan. Thank you. - Thanks, Simon. - Kei tua ` just ahead, Green MP Golriz Ghahraman blasts New Zealand's response to Russia's war. - Plus, Maori Development Minister Willie Jackson shares his back story. e rima miniti nga waiho, to sell you on their ideas. A mounting humanitarian crisis in Europe, and New Zealand's first refugee MP Golriz Ghahraman says we aren't doing enough to help. Kairipoata Finn Hogan started by asking the Green Party Foreign Affairs Spokesperson what her first action would be as minister. - We need to restart our refugee quota and commit to filling it, for one thing. We did take some Afghan refugees as the Taliban crisis happened, but we took them within our refugee quota. This isn't a response to the current crises that are happening, that are popping up, with COVID still raging in Ukraine and Afghanistan and Myanmar and Hong Kong. So allocating visas separately to the quota is definitely the way to go, and we've done that with Ukraine. We haven't done it with any of the other crises. - So, there are many conflict zones around the world. You're saying that the government should be having the same approach to them as we do to Ukraine? - Yeah, we should. But even with Ukraine, it's 4000 visas of family members of Ukrainian New Zealanders. It's not refugees. It's not people most at risk of living under Putin's Russia, which is the rainbow community, it's journalists, it's human rights defenders. Those` Those types of communities are most at risk. And then we have the crisis at the border. We have women and children ` because Ukrainian men can't leave, they are entrusted with the war effort and they're within the borders ` but we have the elderly, we have children, we have them living in winter conditions and overcrowded camps without a formal resettlement programme in Europe. - You tweeted recently that New Zealand should be holding its allies and trading partners to account in the same way we are Russia. I'm just wondering who specifically you mean by that and what that should look like? - Well, again, there are crises happening all over the world, and sometimes they're caused by or worsened by the actions of our allies and trading partners. And there are, in fact, internal human rights abuses that happen. - So just for example? - So I would say we don't hold China to account. We don't hold the United States to account when it cages children of refugees en masse, for example, on its borders. With the Uyghur situation, we had a declaration in our parliament, by consensus, to condemn China, but` - We should be sanctioning China. - No, we should be` we should have those crises influence the way that we trade. So sanctions don't always work. And these particular sanctions are extremely targeted. They've had a lot of thought put into them. And so I have a lot more faith in them than broad trade sanctions, for example. They've never been shown to work particularly well. But when we go to a negotiating table with our trading partners, when we attend UN meetings where we need condemnation on a world stage, we have to have an even hand. - But I'm just still curious about what actually holding China to account looks like, because anything more than a tersely worded letter with China, they're our largest trading partner, could be economically ruinous for us. Is it even plausible to hold them to account more strongly? - Again, I don't think broad trade sanctions have ever been shown to work. So New Zealand saying 'We're not going to trade with China,' isn't necessarily going to work, to do anything. But have we raised it in all of the forums that we have? The Ukraine crisis had a condemnation by the UN General Assembly at the` consensus-based, the most multilateral, strongest forum that it could be raised in. And we know the Security Council doesn't work quite as well, but have we raised the United States and its abuses? Have we raised China's abuses? Do we stand as firmly and even-handedly across the board when Australia cages refugees on prison islands? We haven't worked in that way in the past and I think this could be a move toward that. But it definitely should be. - The major fear we have globally now as escalation of the conflict. Should a no-fly zone be enforced by Western allies over Ukraine? - To say that NATO is now obligated to shoot down planes isn't necessarily going to stop the conflict on the ground. History has taught us that it will escalate the violence and it won't stop it. - Your colleague, Elizabeth Kerekere, has resigned her COVID response portfolio after breaking COVID rules very quickly. Have you ever broken COVID rules? - I don't think so. It's what I keep focussing on is that we're all just doing our best. I'm immunocompromised, as is Elizabeth, so I'm terrified of breaking COVID rules. And I know that my community would be at huge risk if I do, but it's that kind of` we keep helping each other and we keep checking in. - So, not to your knowledge? - I don't think so, no. - Hate speech legislation is still not ready, three years on from March 15. Kris Faafoi was unapologetic about that on our programme recently. Should he be apologising? - Less interested in his apology and more interested in implementing what the Royal Commission recommended. It's also worth noting that, actually, the New Zealand Human Rights Commission recommended that we update our hate speech laws in 2016 with a very detailed set of recommendations. So consecutive successive governments have ignored that and our marginalised communities have been put at risk. This Government has celebrated the swift work with the Royal Commission and that the recommendations have come out. But we need to do something now. - Golriz Ghahraman there. I'm joined now by our panel ` economist at Sense Partners, Shamubeel Eaqub and former Chief Press Secretary for the National Party, Janet Wilson. Tena korua, nau mai. Shamubeel, if I can start with you, now, vaccine mandates and vaccine passports are soon to be gone. Is that a good move? Even more so, is that a logical step? - Look, once we open up the borders, it makes sense to do away with these things, because it becomes too hard to coordinate with international tourists. But really, I think we're now moving to the next phase of COVID management, where it's not going to be about the government telling us how to stay safe, it's going to be New Zealanders deciding how we keep ourselves safe. - Janet, if I can ask you about scanning ` we heard earlier there, Stuart Nash, Minister of Tourism, responding about scanning. Do you scan and should we do away with those` having to do that as well? - Yes, I do scan. I think it's, at the moment, a quite valuable way of finding out where people are going and what they're doing. The problem is a lot of people are not scanning. They've made the move to not scan because they don't want to be associated with anything to do with COVID. So there is a there is a problem in the system there. But as Professor Michael Baker says, we should keep the structures in place. The problem with that is, the political forces and the polling that will come up against the government. - Right. Let's move on to the to the borders, specifically around tourism. The borders are reopening earlier than planned, originally planned. A good move there, Janet, do you think? - I think they had to. I mean, they had to move... Omicron is raging throughout the country. Why are we closing our borders when in fact the infections aren't coming through the borders? It's within the country now. They have to join the rest of the world, and as fast as we can. And I don't think it's going to happen any time soon, in terms of, you know, the numbers coming down here. We're not going to get huge numbers in the first instance anyway. So to open now is a really wise idea. - Do you` What do you make of the staggering, though` the approach the Government's been taking? Minister Nash talking there about, you know, that's the approach and they're going down that way, why not just open it up to the world? Janet? - Oh, I think that` - Apologies. - I think they should have been opening it up to the world by now. To have China and India not open until October is going to be... They've our major tourism partners. The problem will be getting them here in the first place. They're not going to come in October, necessarily. But I think that is a real issue for them. - On that note, Shamubeel, are we waiting too long to open up to tourism markets, like China? - No, I don't think so. So China's going through quite a big increase in infections, and they're been using different types of vaccine. So there's actually a bigger risk in terms of their health than we are experiencing. So, you know, we are going to see multiple waves of COVID in coming months. As we've already seen, there's a new variant of Omicron that's rising across the world. So, you know, like Janet says, we're not going to see a quick recovery in visitors straight away. And there is so limited capacity of flights anywhere at the moment, it makes sense to graduate it over time. Our big market is Australia and we need to open to that first. - OK, Shamubeel, on the topic of cost of living, the government intervened this week to ease some of the pain at the petrol pump. Is that an effective move? - I'd say it's a convenient or a quick way to do something because petrol prices moved so quick it was something you could do almost immediately. But really the government has two things it can do. It can bring the price down or it can help the people who are hurting the most. That second part can only kind of happen around Budgets. You know, giving tax credits, support to the poor and vulnerable people in New Zealand. So I don't think it was, you know, a first, best kind of policy solution, but it was something that was quick, it was convenient, it was immediate and they have now bought themselves time to do something in the Budget that's coming up in May. - Janet, National is blaming Labour for the high cost of living, but it isn't really just Labour to blame. It's` We're not looking at global events fuelling those expenses, aren't we? - Yeah, no, global events` Clearly, the war in Ukraine is helping to fuel those. There are things that this government could have done, though. They could have, very easily, while the Reserve Bank was printing a lot of cheap money, they could have started the gradual rise in interest rates. Now, they didn't do that and they didn't put the brakes on in some way, despite the fact that Reserve Bank Governor Adrian Orr advised them to do so. So they didn't do that. And in not doing that, that's their part that they have to play, in the inflationary spiral that we see ourselves in now. - Shamubeel, what continued economic impacts will Kiwis see from the war in Ukraine? - Well, two things, right? I think the first thing is` even when the war ends, sanctions might exist for Russia for a while, so the price of oil and grains might stay high. So we're probably going to see higher fuel and food costs for a little while. But also, I think we're going to see quite a lot of dislocation, in terms of global trade. So those things are very important for New Zealand. I'd just like to push back a little bit on Janet. The Government has no role on the interest rates, right? So, what the Government could have done is actually quite limited on the inflation front. So I wouldn't over-egg the position of the government in this particular thing. Most of the inflation is important and the domestic stuff is really about rents and construction costs and the government should have been looking harder on how to increase rental supply rather than, I guess, you know, the talk about interest rates, which is very much the domain of the Reserve Bank. - Janet, Te Pati Maori says remove GST from food to help people out. They reprised that policy from 2010 just this week. What do you make of that? Is that good enough? Is that a good idea? - I think it's going to be very` It would be very, very difficult to implement. It's an idea that is floated from time to time and it would have some effect. In some way, ConCom's... pass, if you like, on the duopoly of the supermarkets came at exactly the worst time for us as a country, because yes, they've done some things in terms of land covenants, etc., etc., but the fact that they didn't go harder on the duopoly means that food prices are going to stay high for some time. - Hmm. Shamubeel, Grant Robertson's promising a big spend up in the budget. What can we expect there? - Look, I think in the last two years has been very much about broad response against COVID. They really need to think about the election coming up next year and the pain for the bottom half of New Zealand. So what I'd really like to see is a really big focus on how they're going to help the poor and vulnerable in New Zealand and our low-income families. You know, as we talked about, even with food, for example, you know, trying to reduce the price of food for everyone is very expensive. But the same money, if you got targeted towards low-income households, would have a much bigger effect. So we really need to sort of get away from this blanket approach that everybody in New Zealand needs a discount, to saying, there are some people who are doing it really tough and let's make sure we lift them up. - Janet, what are you expecting from Grant Robertson's budget this year? - I'm expe` He's got two chances ahead of this election. He's got two budgets, and I'm expecting him to actually go quite hard in this regard, in an economic sense. I agree entirely with Shamubeel. I think that he will` they will target themselves not only to the lower end, but also those in the middle classes doing it hard. That's where the centre lies and that's where their votes lie. - Hm. Just quickly, Elizabeth Kerekere lost her Health and COVID 19 portfolios for breaching isolation rules by flying to Wellington. Did the Greens handle this well, do you think, Janet? - I think they handled this as well as they possibly could. They went it early. They issued an apology. I know Elizabeth was quite upset with some of the tone of the communications because she had agreed to some of it in the first place. But I thought they did as well as they could because, you know, it was really a 24-hour issue. And that's a success in the 24/7 news cycle these days, right? - That's right. And Shamubeel, this week, of course, the news of the week, in terms of politics, was Simon Bridges' shock resignation` retirement, actually, from politics. He only had a few months, though, as Finance Spokesperson. What do you think he achieved in that position? - Well, it's very difficult in Opposition. I think the main thing was bringing focus to the cost of living, that inflation is high and it's hurting New Zealanders. - And Janet, his departure is coming up. What is that` Where does that leave National, in terms of going forward into an election year next year? - Well, they've lost one of their most experienced people. They've also lost the leader of the conservative wing of the party. And losing him and` and replacing him with Nicola Willis, who is an urban liberal. They are actually leaving the conservatives a little bit out in the cold, it appears. There may be a lot of backroom work being done right now, around that, and I would expect that to be happening. But I think there will be some grumblings in and around that. I also think the manner of Bridges' departure is such, you know, the forcing of the by-election, is such that indicates to me that there was some frustration on his part about his voice being heard within that caucus. - Hmm. Very interesting korero and whakaaro there. Thank you very much, Janet Wilson and Shamubeel Eaqub, our panellists for today. E whai ake nei, Maori Development Minister Willie Jackson shares his back story. Plus ` they're part of the digitisation of everyday life. But does the government even know what they are? We report on NFTs. photo albums and personal lives of our politicians. He's battled for Maori rights in both politics and media for decades. But before he was an MP, Willie Jackson says he was literally paid to fight. He invited us to Ngai Whare Waatea Marae to hear his backstory. - I was born in Wellington, in Porirua. I used to read in the Truth Newspaper that we were in the worst street in the country, you know. But we had a clean house. We had really caring parents. Very humble beginnings. The old man always said, you know, you can do anything. Mum used to always talk about aiming high, and Mum's always said, 'Don't get a state house like all the rest of the relations, son.' You know, you can do better. I wanted to please them. I didn't particularly please them in my early years because I was a bit of a failure at school and not, you know, I just didn't do the business. I was a bouncer for seven years, actually. When you're a bit younger, you know, we were sort of fighting all the time anyway, so. (LAUGHS) You know, it's just like, we might as well get paid for this, you know? You're out with your mates, you get into a fight, and that's how it was in South Auckland. And Once Were Warriors came out, we were all watching it in the pubs. And the fact the place they filmed it was just around the corner. Tem used to train with us when we were working security, because he couldn't fight to save himself. Oh, that's my dad there. And there he is in all his gears. It was quite funny actually, looking at him with those gears on, because he was a labourer, a watersider, and that's when he got a degree. He did a` He got a degree in politics and Maori. And he, you know, huge inspiration for me. And him along with my mother, June Jackson, you know, they opened this marae up. My father was a humble man from the East Coast. He was a native Maori language speaker. Loved the language, the reo, and of course never spoke a word to us, you know. I was part of that generation where the language wasn't passed on. He was old style, you know. I don't think he'd ever tell you he was particularly proud of you, or love didn't exist in our game, you know. That's not how we talked to each other, you know. It's how I talk now towards my kids. You know, it was just a lot... The sad part for me is when I first became a parliamentarian back in '99, Dad had gone by then. I would hope that he would be proud of some of the things that I've done. And the sad thing with Mum is she's got the dementia now, and she still knows just the very close family members. But she led from the front in terms of the urban Maori movement. She was a role model for myself and John Tamihere, I suppose advocates for urban Maori in the '90S, John and I. She made a huge impact in her life, and really proud of her contribution, and this is part of her contribution; her and my father's. They set a marae up here and they set it up for all the people of South Auckland and anyone who wanted to come through. We're not absolutely tribal specific. This is a marae open for everyone. Oh, this radio station is a real integral part of the marae, Ngai Whare Waatea. And I worked up a strategy along again with my mate JT, where we` we thought urban Maori should have their own frequency. And so we got 603am. We decided to call it Radio Waatea after the marae, because Mum said that's a good name for it. Look, it means so much to have the radio station here because, you know, we want to give another perspective, another view. That's what you get on Radio Waatea. Now you get Shane Te Pou, you get Matthew Tukaki, you know, who we can't shut up, you know. And just giving that alternative view, that te ao Maori view. Always incredibly important for people like myself. Tania is someone I'm very proud of. We've been together 20, 25 years. Between 20 and 25 years. I'm just trying to think back, and she's just been hugely supportive. We met in politics, but she's not someone who jumps in front of the camera, and she won't even like me talking about her at the moment, so we better end the conversation! I was... in the Alliance, I was in the Alliance, but I'll never forget it actually, because we were with Sandra Lee, minister, and she said that, 'Oh, we've got this... We've got a treaty Maori session coming up,' and I thought I'd be speaking and they go, oh no, we've got this future wife of mine speaking. I thought, who's she? (CHUCKLES) I should be the` I'm the` I thought, why should she come in, you know, and talk about the treaty and Maori things? She was brilliant, much more brilliant than me because she's a treaty lecturer. And so those were our first meetings. She's very intelligent and very beautiful and, you know, we can have a good laugh, and I think you've got to have a great laugh in life. If you can't have a bit of fun with your with your partner or your wife, then they probably shouldn't be your partner or your wife. (LAUGHS) You know, my boy in particular has made me very proud. You know, I suppose he's had good examples in front of him, but just really pleased with what he's doing now, because he's doing stuff that probably most other journalists aren't doing. He's a top producer. My girl has just finished school. She was a kura kid, you know, brought up in the language. I shouldn't tell the story, but this daughter of mine, she wasn't a particularly good sports person, eh. I used to say to her, 'Gee, baby, you can't even catch the ball on the netball court, 'just concentrate on your books, you know?' And then all of a sudden she got into the rowing, she became a bit of a star, and she won the sportswoman of the year. (LAUGHS) She won the senior sportswoman of the year. I just thought, wow, you know, isn't that something, eh? Our girl, eh, at King's College, you know. So just so proud of her. You know, coming back into politics, I came back into politics at 56. Made that decision to come back into politics. With Tania, I've been in the public eye from the time we met, so I'm 60 now. So, you know, I can't even believe that actually, sometimes. I don't feel old, you know, and I think I've seen old 45-year-olds. I think I bring in an experience from the community and from Maori that is probably a bit different from most. Politics is, you know, I don't see it as a job, I see it as an opportunity. And when people see it as a job, I think they're seeing it the wrong way. You've got a chance to actually represent your people and to get resources back and to help your people or New Zealanders. It's a chance you should take. You shouldn't see it as a job. If you see it that way, then you shouldn't be in it. - Willie Jackson there. Coming up ` WTF is an NFT? Stay with us. We're back after the break. The Wild West, scams, or just part of the digitisation of everyday life? We're talking about non-fungible tokens, commonly referred to as NFTs. - While a Kiwi company is at the forefront, generating hundreds of millions of dollars, does the government even know what NFTs are? This is Dougal, and this is his 'FLUF' ` a unique digital rabbit. Dougal, why did you buy a digital rabbit? - (CHUCKLES) Well, look, Web3's clearly going to be one of the big technology innovations over the next 10 years, and this is kind of the chance to invest in what was probably the equivalent of the internet, back in 1993 or 1994. - Yes, it's about investing. His first one cost $9000. It's now worth about $32,000. And Dougal now owns 100 NFTs. - You get some funny looks, when they see the actual assets. Some of those looks are really funny, but it's incredible. I thought they were pretty odd, myself, when I first saw them. - Dougal bought his FLUF from Kiwi company FLUF World. In just seven months, its limited range of digital avatars has generated eye-watering sums. - About $220 million. - US dollars? - US, yeah. Something like that. - 220 million US dollars. - Yeah. Isn't that crazy? - Brooke Howard-Smith says those sales pale in comparison with other, rarer NFTs. For example, total sales of early American NFTs' crypto-punks have topped $2 billion. So, why are people buying? - You might really want to own an animated digital avatar that you can walk through the Metaverse as. You know, I feel cool walking like that, that avatar really speaks to me. A whole heap of the value comes from the community. We've got 60,000, like, technology optimists. People that are` they care enough about this to have learned quite a lot about this next phase of technology. - FLUF World is flying high. They've done a collab with Snoop Dog, and this week were at SXSW, a global tech, music and arts festival in Texas, where it set up three domes to host panel talks about NFTs and the online world they inhabit. Yes, NFTs are hot, but there's a warning. - If people are trying to buy these things for speculation, to make a whole lot of money, they're going to get their fingers burnt. - Blockchain and NFT researcher, Alex Sims, points to the recent controversy about New Zealander Martin Van Blerk, who was developing a game called 'Pixelmon' that disappointed its investors. - Where a New Zealander made, ooh, $100 million, and then produced some art that was rubbish. I mean, and then people were immediately saying, this isn't right. So, you've got to do your due diligence, find out about this. - It is a very Wild West situation, right now. - Carl Shaw and his company are on the brink of launching their own NFT project, called Nine Lives Battalion. But the recent Pixelmon controversy has made buyers wary. - And it's very hard to navigate around that, and find the right projects, because everyone is, essentially, petrified at the moment, of the next rug pull, or the next scam. - But Carl is a convert to NFTs and the underlying blockchain technology that supports them. - It's being used everywhere at the moment. It's in its very infancy. But NFTs are allowing people to showcase, kind of, what that is and, I don't know, in a couple of years from now, the space will look very different. I don't know what it's going to be. No-one really does. Everyone, right now, is an expert. - And many are piling in. Overseas, shoe companies like Nike and Adidas are selling unique digital shoes to wear online only. Back at SXSW, country music singer Dolly Parton is about to drop the Dollyverse. - As a limited edition NFT from our friends at Blockchain Creative Labs. - Sky TV here is planning to launch digital collectables of key sporting moments. And, Kiwi auction house Webb's this week released a catalogue of Kiwi artist Don Binney's works ` each one comes with an NFT. Professor Alex Sims says the technology does have real-world use. The code in NFTs could mean artists get royalties every time a piece is onsold. And it could stop the trade of fake concert tickets. - It's making that concert ticket into an NFT. So, if you have it, you can use it. But if you transfer it to me, I've got it now, you don't have it. So, I can use it. Which is great. - The founders of FLUF World have a much bigger vision. An open and free metaverse, where we all have a digital avatar, and it's not provided by Big Tech ` and they want to help build it. - It gives us a significant advantage. We're not six months ahead of the world, we're probably, in some respects, four or five years ahead of the world. - Well, we asked Minister for the Digital Economy David Clark what work is being done on NFTs. He says they're watching this space, but warns NFTs are high risk. - And we're back now with our panel, Shamubeel Eaqub and Janet Wilson. Tena korua, thank you for joining us this morning. Now, Janet, just before you mentioned Simon Bridges' National losing its conservative voice. In terms of the Tauranga seat, who will National put forward? Will it be Tania Tapsell, or is this an opening for Winston Peters to take it back? - Um, that's` Tania Tapsell's been widely canvassed by the commentariat. I'm not sure, though, that the Tauranga electorate will necessarily put her up. This is one of the strongest seats for National in the country, one of their top three. Given that Bridges won it, but only by just over 1200 votes, last time round, I think the Tauranga electorate will be looking for someone who will strongly represent the values that they represent, and they are very firmly in that conservative part of the party. They're not in the urban liberal part. So, I wouldn't expect Tania Tapsell to be elected. I could be wrong. - So, who do you expect National to put in place there? - I think they will go for someone in the same mold as Simon Bridges. Someone who represents the conservative side of the party. - What about Winston Peters, Shamubeel? Do you think this is a prime opportunity ` a perfect opportunity ` to see him back in politics? - This is a bit beyond my wheelhouse, but Winston's been making a lot of waves, and he's the ultimate opportunist, when it comes to politics, right? - Absolutely. Well, Nicola Willis is within your realm. She takes the role of Finance Spokesperson for National. What do you make of` Well, is she the right person for that role? - Look, it's a really big role, because being the Finance Minister means that you're going to have to say no to your colleagues a lot. It's not like in Housing, where she has been very strong, where you can focus on one particular area. So, this is going to really have to expand her skill base. It is about being able to say no to your colleagues, it is about understanding the difference between government finances and household, they're not at all the same. And the, sort of, final thing that's really hard for the Finance Minister is ` she will have to think about everybody in New Zealand. Not just the political ideology that's put forward by your party. - Janet, your thoughts? Nicola Willis there, picking up the Finance role. - You know, I have questioned her appointment, but I didn't` I'm not questioning her appointment on her ability to do the job. She is a rising star within the party, and deservedly so. I think she's got enough intellectual grunt to actually do it. I also think that she will be, as Matthew Hooten quoted John Key as saying, in his column this week, that she will be underestimated. - Mm. - And that is actually a gift, for her. I would never underestimate Nicola Willis. I think she's got more than enough firepower and brain power to actually do the job. - Before we move on to another topic, Janet, I'm interested to know, what's your number one memory of Simon Bridges? - Um... (CHUCKLES) I have` I do have a recollection of him at a certain party in a onesie. - What? - It was some time ago, which goes back to his bad boy party days. - What kind? - Um, it was some time ago. Um... I think` I think the sadness about it, for Simon, was his reinvention after he lost the leadership in 2020. And the work that he did to show his intellect ` his own intellect ` with his book, National Identity, and his moving back as the leader of that conservative wing. Clearly, he did that numbers and he saw that Luxon was on the rise, and that that was going to be something that would stick around for some time, and he took the option to go. And I'm very sad that that's occurred. 'Cause I think he would've been a huge asset in any National government. - Mm. Just earlier, we had a story there on NFTs. Shamubeel, I know this is also not within your realm of expertise, but in saying that, you know, there are a lot of Kiwis getting in on the NFT ride, and there's a lot of momentum out there. Do you see anything in the NFT space? - Look, it's very much in its infancy, and I think what we heard from the minister is, they're taking a watching brief. I think this is always what happens, is government is quite slow to regulate. The reality is, this is a new product, a new market, no really good safeguards around it. And we need government to be far more fast-moving on the online world of crypto, and regulate, and make sure that the usual things that we expect from Consumer Guarantees Act, and those supports that we have, also apply to the online world. It's much harder to do, but I think it's something that we are falling behind. This digital space is growing really fast, and our regulators need to move much faster. - Absolutely. Good recommendations, there. Now, final question. The Aotearoa New Zealand history curriculum was this week launched by our government. No word from the National Party, Janet. Has Christopher Luxon dumped the cultural issues? - I think he's working very hard to go towards the centre. And that will be at odds with others in his own party. The introduction of New Zealand history into schools is a case of, what took us so long, really? I mean, it's a no-brainer, isn't it? Why are we learning about English history, when in fact our own history is such a rich background, and we don't know enough about it. Um, I think he would be broadly` and the fact that he hasn't said anything about it means that he's probably in agreement with it. - Mm. And your thoughts, quickly, on the curriculum, there, Shamubeel? - Well, as a parent of two boys, I really want us to grow up in a place where we understand our own history, because that's what makes us appreciate what New Zealand is all about ` all the good and the bad things. That's the only way we can make sure we all understand and come from a common base. So, like Janet, I think it's well overdue that we learn our own history. And I'm really happy that my kids will get the chance to do that. - We will leave it there. Thank you very much to both our panellists this morning, Janet Wilson and Shamubeel Eaqub. - All right, almost time to go, but before we sign off ` - Kia toi atu nga whakaaro ki titi rangi ki te uranga o te ra, ko te tama atu te ra e tiraha nei. - Our condolences go our to the whanau of Sir Wira Gardener, who passed away this week aged 78. - Kei te rangatira hoatu kia nunui ma i te po. - But that's our show for this week. Thank you so much for watching. - Nga mihi nui ki a koutou. See you again next weekend. Captions by Able. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022