CAPTIONS BY STEFFI DRYDEN AND MICHAELA CORNELIUS. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2022 TENA KOUTOU. NAU MAI, HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` TRANSMISSION GULLY WAS WAY OVER TIME AND BUDGET. SO HOW DO WE KNOW AUCKLAND'S LIGHT RAIL WON'T SUFFER THE SAME FATE? THEN ` IF THE GOVERNMENT WAS PROPOSING TO SCRAP YOUR JOB, WOULD YOU STILL HAVE THE COURAGE TO PUBLICLY CRITICISE IT? THERE SEEMS TO BE A MOVE ACROSS GOVERNMENT TO SET UP BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS, AND PERHAPS IT'S CONSIDERED IT'S THE BEST MODEL, BUT IT'S NOT. PLUS ` YOU REALLY NEED TO HEAR THIS STARK WARNING FOR NEW ZEALAND AND OUR CLOSEST NEIGHBOURS. IF WE ARE GONNA HAVE A DISAGREEMENT WITH BEIJING, IT'S FAR BETTER THAT WE DO SO TOGETHER, RATHER THAN BEING PICKED OFF BY BEIJING INDIVIDUALLY. 103 YEARS ` THAT'S HOW LONG IT'S TAKEN FOR TRANSMISSION GULLY, JUST NORTH OF WELLINGTON, TO GO FROM A PROPOSAL TO AN OPEN ROAD. THE CONSTRUCTION TIMELINE BLEW OUT. THE COST BLEW OUT. BUT NOW, $1.25B SHOULD SAVE COMMUTERS BETWEEN SEVEN AND 15 MINUTES A TRIP. ALTHOUGH TRANSMISSION GULLY WAS AN INCREDIBLY COMPLEX PIECE OF ENGINEERING, THE PROJECT PALES IN COMPARISON TO THIS GOVERNMENT'S PLAN FOR LIGHT RAIL IN AUCKLAND. SO I SAT DOWN WITH TRANSPORT MINISTER MICHAEL WOOD TO ASK WHAT GIVES HIM CONFIDENCE WE ACTUALLY HAVE THE CAPACITY TO PULL OFF AUCKLAND'S LIGHT RAIL ON BUDGET AND ON TIME. LET'S START WITH TRANSMISSION GULLY. IT'S BEEN OPEN FOR A COUPLE OF DAYS. THERE ARE REPORTS OF PEOPLE CRACKING THEIR WINDSCREENS FROM LOOSE GRAVEL, MOBILE RECEPTION DEAD SPOTS, NOT TO MENTION THE GROSS DELAYS. DO THE PROBLEMS WITH TRANSMISSION GULLY SPEAK TO A WIDER ISSUE? ARE WE BAD AT BUILDING TRANSPORT INFRASTRUCTURE? I THINK FIRSTLY, I'D SAY THAT, OVERWHELMINGLY, WELLINGTONIANS ARE THRILLED TO HAVE TRANSMISSION GULLY OPEN, AND THE RESPONSE HAS BEEN INCREDIBLY POSITIVE ON THE WHOLE. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS FOR DECADES, ABSOLUTELY DECADES. AND THEN WE'VE HAD DELAYS AT THE BACK END WHICH REALLY DO COME OUT OF SOME OF THE PROBLEMS WITH THE PPP THAT HAVE BEEN WELL-CANVASSED, AND LESSONS NEED TO BE LEARNED FROM THAT. IN TERMS OF THE BIGGER QUESTION ABOUT INFRASTRUCTURE IN NEW ZEALAND, WHAT I WOULD SAY IS THAT WE WENT THROUGH A PERIOD THROUGH THE 1980S, 1990S AND EARLY 2000S WHERE WE JUST WERE NOT BUILDING SUFFICIENT INFRASTRUCTURE FOR OUR COUNTRY ` IN TRANSPORT AND IN OTHER PLACES ` AND I THINK THERE WAS SOME IMPACT IN TERMS OF INSTITUTIONAL FORM AND FUNCTION BEING LOST. WE'RE WORKING HARD NOW AND PLAYING CATCH-UP. WE'VE GOT A RECORD AMOUNT GOING INTO INFRASTRUCTURE, AND WE'RE BUILDING UP THE CAPACITY TO BE ABLE TO DELIVER NOT JUST THE CATCH-UP, BUT ACTUALLY PLANNING AND FUTURE-PROOFING FOR THE GROWTH THAT WE KNOW IS COMING AT US VERY FAST OVER THE NEXT 20 TO 30 YEARS. SO THERE'S A LOT OF WORK THERE THAT'S HAPPENING TO GET OURSELVES READY. LET ME JUST PICK UP ON SOMETHING YOU SAID THERE. YOU THINK BECAUSE OF THE INFRASTRUCTURE DEFICIT, THERE IS A LACK OF EXPERTISE IN THAT SPACE? WELL, THAT HAS CLEARLY HAD AN IMPACT. YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE REALLY SIGNIFICANT PROJECTS THAT WE'RE MOVING FORWARD WITH, AND IDEALLY, YOU WOULD HAVE A WHOLE CONSTRUCTION SECTOR ECOSYSTEM IN NEW ZEALAND THAT WAS REALLY ENABLED TO DO THOSE THINGS. NOW, DON'T GET ME WRONG ` WE'VE GOT VERY SKILLED PEOPLE, EXCELLENT COMPANIES WHO ARE ABLE TO ENGAGE IN THESE PROJECTS, BUT WE DO HAVE TO DRAW VERY HEAVILY ON OVERSEAS EXPERTISE FOR SOME OF THE MORE COMPLEX PROJECTS AS WELL. EVEN FOR CORE LABOUR SUPPLY, WE'RE OFTEN VERY RELIANT ON OFFSHORE LABOUR FOR THAT. WE NEED TO BUILD UP A STEADY PIPELINE, AND THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE SECTOR HAS SAID FOR US SO THAT WE CAN RETAIN THE SKILLS HERE IN NEW ZEALAND OVER 20 OR 30 YEARS. SO YOU LOOK AT SOMETHING THAT WE'VE ANNOUNCED LIKE AUCKLAND LIGHT RAIL AND THE ALTERNATIVE WAITEMATA HARBOUR CROSSING ` THAT'S ABOUT HAVING A 20-YEAR PLAN FOR A CITY SO YOU CAN BUILD UP A WORKFORCE AND BUILD UP THE SKILLS. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU ABOUT THOSE PROJECTS IN JUST A MINUTE. JUST ONE LAST QUESTION ON TRANSMISSION GULLY ` I APPRECIATE THAT THE PPP WAS SIGNED UNDER THE PREVIOUS NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. AUSTRALIAN COMPANY CPB, WHICH BUILT THE ROAD, HAS REPEATEDLY AND CONSISTENTLY DENIED REQUESTS FOR COMMENT. IN YOUR TIME AS MINISTER, WHAT HAVE YOU MADE OF THAT COMPANY'S APPROACH TO TRANSMISSION GULLY? LOOK, IT'S NOT HELPFUL FOR ME AS MINISTER TO START SLINGING OFF AT INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES IN THIS CONTEXT, BUT IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT THERE HAVE BEEN DIFFICULT RELATIONSHIPS IN THIS PPP. I PRIMARILY PUT THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT ON THE BAD WAY IN WHICH THE PPP WAS DESIGNED. THE AUDITOR-GENERAL HAS COMMENTED ON THAT. THAT WAS SIGNED UNDER THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT. AND OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF MONTHS, AS WE'VE TRIED TO GET THIS THROUGH AND GET THIS DONE, THE PROBLEM WITH THE WAY THE PPP WAS STRUCTURED ` AND TO A DEGREE, THIS IS INHERENT IN SOME PPPS ` IS THAT YOU HAVE A RANGE OF DIFFERENT PARTIES IN THE ROOM, EACH OF WHOM HAVE DIFFERENT COMMERCIAL INTERESTS. AND TO MAKE ANY CHANGES OR MAKE PROGRESS, YOU OFTEN HAVE TO GO THROUGH EXCRUCIATING LEGAL AND COMMERCIAL NEGOTIATIONS, AND THAT'S BEEN FRUSTRATING FOR PEOPLE LOOKING IN AND SAYING, 'WHY CAN'T WE SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING?' BUT THAT WAS THE NATURE OF THIS PPP THAT WE INHERITED. WE'VE JUST HAD TO FOCUS ON CLEANING IT UP AND GETTING THE ROAD OPEN. LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR GOVERNMENT'S AGENDA. HOW MUCH WILL AUCKLAND'S LIGHT RAIL PROJECT COST? THE INDICATIVE COST THAT'S BEEN PROVIDED BY THE LIGHT RAIL ESTABLISHMENT UNIT IN 2021 DOLLARS IS AROUND ABOUT $11 BILLION ` $14.6 BILLION INFLATED ACROSS THE LIFETIME COSTS OF THE PROJECT. IT'S A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY. BUT WHAT I'VE ALWAYS SAID WITH THIS IS THIS IS THE KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE WE SHOULD'VE BUILT 50 YEARS AGO. WE'VE GOT A CHOICE IN FRONT OF US NOW IN AUCKLAND AND OUR OTHER BIG METROS. DO WE FINALLY MAKE THESE INVESTMENTS AND HAVE PROPER LINKED-UP PUBLIC TRANSPORT SYSTEMS, OR DO WE KICK THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD AGAIN AND SEE THE PROBLEMS AROUND CONGESTION, URBAN SPRAWL AND LACK OF TRANSPORT CHOICES GET WORSE? WE THINK THAT IT'S TIME TO BITE THE BULLET AND REALLY FUTURE-PROOF AUCKLAND. IT'S INTERESTING TO CONSIDER THE TREASURY PAPERS RELEASED LAST MONTH WHICH SAY THE PRICE COULD REALLY BE ANYWHERE BETWEEN $7.3 BILLION AND $29.2 BILLION, ADJUSTED FOR INFLATION. SO WHY SHOULD WE HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THAT $14.6 BILLION FIGURE? WELL, THE FIGURES THAT I'VE QUOTED, THE $11 BILLION IN 2021 DOLLARS OR THE $14 BILLION INFLATED FIGURE, THOSE ARE THE FIGURES THAT HAVE BEEN WORKED THROUGH BY THE LIGHT RAIL UNIT ACTUALLY BASED ON THE COST INPUTS THAT WE EXPECT AND BASED ON THE INDICATIVE BUSINESS CASE. THE TREASURY FIGURES YOU'VE QUOTED ARE EFFECTIVELY JUST TAKING THAT FIGURE AND SAYING, WELL, BECAUSE IT'S AT AN EARLY STAGE, MAYBE IT'LL BE CHEAPER, AND MAYBE IT'LL BE MORE EXPENSIVE, AND THEY'VE HALVED IT AND DOUBLED IT. BUT ACTUALLY, WHAT I'M QUOTING ARE FIGURES THAT HAVE BEEN WORKED THROUGH BY THE UNIT BASED ON WHAT WE EXPECT IT TO COST. AND ACTUALLY, THEY HAVE BEEN BUDGETED VERY CONSERVATIVELY AND ARE BASICALLY AT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WITHIN THE TOP 25% OF EXPENSE FOR A PROJECT LIKE THIS THAT YOU WOULD SEE INTERNATIONALLY. SO IT'S BEEN BENCHMARKED INTERNATIONALLY. IT'S BEEN THROUGH A TREASURY GATEWAY PROCESS. IT'S AT AN EARLY STAGE. COSTS WILL EVOLVE AS YOU DO A DETAILED DESIGN, BUT THOSE ARE THE FIGURES THAT WE CAN HAVE CONFIDENCE IN. WE'VE GOTTA MAKE THESE INVESTMENTS; OTHERWISE, THE PROBLEMS GET WORSE. YOU SAY WE CAN HAVE CONFIDENCE IN THOSE FIGURES, BUT TREASURY HAS MADE IT CLEAR THAT ACTUALLY, TO HAVE ANY SORT OF CONFIDENCE IN HOW MUCH THIS PROJECT IS GOING TO COST, GIVEN THE SCALE OF ITS AMBITION, WE NEED TO HAVE MORE DETAIL. I'LL READ TO YOU FROM THE TREASURY ADVICE. 'TO GIVE THE PROJECT THE BEST CHANCE OF SUCCESS, 'WE RECOMMEND THAT DECISIONS ON ROUTE AND MODE ARE DEFERRED 'AT THIS POINT IN TIME, GIVEN INSUFFICIENT URBAN ANALYSIS, 'SOCIAL LICENCE AND ROBUST COST INFORMATION.' WHY DID YOU IGNORE THAT ADVICE? WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THIS PROJECT FOR ABOUT 15 YEARS IN AUCKLAND, AND IN FACT, IT WAS MAYOR ROBBIE BACK IN THE '70S THAT PUT FORWARD A RAPID RAIL PLAN. WE'RE A GOVERNMENT THAT SAID THAT WE NEED TO MOVE FORWARD WITH THIS. WE'VE MADE THE KEY DECISIONS AROUND GETTING THE PROJECT MOVING FORWARD. THERE WILL NOW BE A DETAILED DESIGN CASE THAT WILL EXAMINE IN DETAIL QUESTIONS LIKE HOW THE URBAN DEVELOPMENT WILL LINK UP WITH THE TRANSPORT MODE, EXACTLY WHERE YOU'LL HAVE THE STATIONS AND HOW HOUSING WILL FIT AROUND THOSE AND THAT KIND OF THING. SO A LOT OF THE WORK THAT TREASURY HAS INDICATED THERE WILL HAPPEN BEFORE THE FINAL INVESTMENT DECISION IS MADE OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS. BUT I MEAN, WHY NOT, AT THE VERY LEAST, DEFER A DECISION AROUND THE FORM THAT THAT LIGHT RAIL WAS GOING TO TAKE? I MEAN, THAT'S THE ADVICE FROM TREASURY. THEY'VE SAID THE MODE SHOULD BE DEFERRED AT THIS POINT SO WE CAN GET A BETTER IDEA AS TO THE COST. TREASURY'S SAYING IT'S FAR TOO SOON TO BE GIVING ANY SORTS OF COSTS, BECAUSE THEY'RE WHOLLY INACCURATE WITH THE INFORMATION WE HAVE AVAILABLE. LOOK, I DO NOT THINK THAT AUCKLANDERS WOULD ACCEPT US DEFERRING A DECISION ON THIS PROJECT. AUCKLANDERS WANT THERE TO BE A PLAN TO FUTURE-PROOF AND TO DEVELOP A PROPER LINKED-UP PUBLIC TRANSPORT NETWORK FOR OUR CITY. AS I SAY, IN THE NEXT STAGE, WHICH IS THE DETAILED DESIGN PHASE, WE BEGIN TO EXAMINE MANY OF THOSE IMPORTANT QUESTIONS ABOUT HOW THE PROJECT WILL BE DESIGNED AND HOW WE GET THE REAL BENEFITS FROM IT IN TERMS OF THE URBAN DEVELOPMENT, IN TERMS OF THE TRANSPORT CONNECTIVITY AND THE REST OF IT BEFORE WE MAKE THE FINAL INVESTMENT DECISION. AND IT'S A JOB OF OFFICIALS TO EXERCISE CAUTION. I THINK TREASURY IS, YOU KNOW, HONOURABLY FULFILLING THAT FUNCTION THERE. IT'S THE JOB OF US TO LEAD AND TO MAKE DECISIONS AND SEEK DIRECTION. I'VE SAID THAT I WILL DO THAT AS MINISTER WITH THIS PROJECT AND WITH THE ALTERNATIVE CROSSING, AND WE'RE MOVING FORWARD. BUT IT'S THE JOB OF YOU TO LEAD, BUT WITH PRUDENCE, RIGHT? WE WANT YOU TO BE MAKING DECISIONS AND EXERCISING LEADERSHIP BUT WITH THE APPROPRIATE LEVEL OF RESPONSIBILITY WHEN IT COMES TO EXPENDITURE OF THIS NATURE. CORRECT, AND THAT'S WHY WE SET UP THE ESTABLISHMENT UNIT LAST YEAR TO PRODUCE AN INDICATIVE BUSINESS CASE WHICH RECEIVED INTERNATIONAL PEER REVIEW, WHICH WENT THROUGH A TREASURY GATEWAY PROCESS AND THAT THEN RECOMMENDED TO US THAT THE CASE FOR LIGHT RAIL AND THE SPECIFIC OPTION THAT WE CHOSE STACKED UP IN TERMS OF THE STRATEGIC CASE, THE ECONOMIC CASE AND THE BUSINESS CASE. WE'VE MADE OUR DECISION BASED ON THAT. AND OF COURSE, THERE IS NOW MORE WORK THAT HAPPENS IN TERMS OF FINALISING THE DESIGN. DO YOU HONESTLY BELIEVE, MINISTER, WITH LIGHT RAIL, AS PER YOUR VISION, WILL COME IN UNDER $15 BILLION? I'VE GOT EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT WE'VE GOT ROBUST FIGURES IN FRONT OF US. ANY LARGE PROJECT LIKE THIS WORKS ON THE BASIS THAT YOU DEVELOP AN INDICATIVE BUSINESS CASE. YOU USUALLY HAVE WHAT'S CALLED A P50 COST, WHICH IS YOUR BEST ESTIMATE AT THE START. THAT'S THE METHODOLOGY THAT WE'RE WORKING WITH, AND THEN YOU REFINE YOUR COSTS AS WE GO FORWARD. THERE IS ACTUALLY AN ALTERNATIVE CRITICISM THAT WE FACE WITH THIS PROJECT FROM SOME OTHERS WHO SAY THAT ACTUALLY IT'S BEEN OVER-COSTED. SO WE'LL CONTINUE TO REFINE THE COSTS AS WE GET TO THE DETAILED DESIGN. THAT'LL GIVE US THE FINAL FIGURE, BUT THE FIGURES WE HAVE IN FRONT OF US ARE ROBUST. AND AGAIN, I MAKE THIS POINT ` THIS WILL BE A 100-YEAR SORT OF LEVEL OF INFRASTRUCTURE. THIS WILL BE USED BY OUR GREAT-GRANDKIDS. WE HAVE TO START MAKING THESE INVESTMENTS. WE COULD KICK IT DOWN THE ROAD FOR ANOTHER FIVE OR 10 YEARS UNTIL EVERY SINGLE TINY LITTLE DESIGN QUESTION AND COST WAS SETTLED, BUT WE WOULDN'T MAKE PROGRESS. WE HAVE TO START MAKING THESE DECISIONS IN AUCKLAND AND OUR OTHER LARGE CITIES. ON APRIL 1ST, THE FEEBATE SCHEME CAME INTO FORCE. TO WHAT EXTENT HAS THAT POLICY INCENTIVISED A RUSH ON GAS-GUZZLING UTES OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS? QUITE THE REVERSE, ACTUALLY. THE CLEAN CAR PACKAGE HAS ALREADY SEEN A RUSH ON CLEANER VEHICLES. WE'VE SEEN RECORD SALES OF ZERO- AND LOW-EMISSION VEHICLES SINCE THE FIRST DISCOUNTS CAME IN FROM THE 1ST OF JULY. OVER 12,000 PEOPLE HAVE NOW RECEIVED THOSE DISCOUNTS. ABOUT 20% OF OUR MARKET IS NOW LOW- AND ZERO-EMISSION VEHICLES. WE'VE HAD SOME MONTHS WHERE THE TOP SELLER HAS BEEN AN ELECTRIC VEHICLE, AND IN THAT TIME, WITHIN ABOUT SIX MONTHS OF THE DISCOUNT COMING IN, WE REDUCED THE EMISSIONS OF NEW VEHICLES COMING INTO NEW ZEALAND BY 15%. IT PREVIOUSLY TOOK EIGHT YEARS TO ACHIEVE THAT REDUCTION. I KNOW THERE ARE CRITICS OF THIS, BUT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY IS THAT IN THE PAST, WE HAVE HAD POLICIES THAT LED TO ONE OF THE DIRTIEST FLEETS IN THE WORLD. THIS POLICY IS LEADING US IN A BETTER DIRECTION, AND IT WILL SAVE KIWIS MONEY IN THE LONG RUN. IF YOU HAVEN'T INCENTIVISED A RUSH ON GAS-GUZZLING VEHICLES, WHY DID FIGURES FOR FEBRUARY SHOW A RECORD NUMBER OF NEW UTES REGISTERED IN NEW ZEALAND? OH, WE DID EXPECT THERE TO BE SOME BUMP. SO THERE WAS A RUSH? THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN A SMALL ONE IN THERE, BUT` I MEAN, THERE WERE LITERALLY ADS ON TV FOR SUVS AND UTES, SAYING, 'QUICKLY, COME IN AND BUY NOW 'BEFORE THE NEW GOVERNMENT POLICY COMES INTO EFFECT.' LOOK, WE EXPECT COMMERCIAL PLAYERS TO RESPOND IN A COMMERCIAL WAY, AND THAT WAS ONE IMPACT. BUT OVERALL, AS I'VE JUST EXPLAINED, THE NEW FLEET THAT'S COME INTO NEW ZEALAND BECAUSE OF THESE POLICIES IS SIGNIFICANTLY CLEANER THAN THE VEHICLES THAT WE WERE GETTING IN BEFORE. AND I'LL JUST SAY, IN RESPECT OF THOSE GAS-GUZZLING UTES, HERE'S ONE IMPORTANT FACT. I'VE HAD IMPORTERS TELL ME THAT EVEN WITH THE UTES ` WHICH ARE A LESS EFFICIENT FORM OF TRANSPORT ` THEY HAVE CHANGED THE STOCK THAT THEY HAVE BEEN GETTING IN THE COUNTRY TO BRING IN MORE EFFICIENT UTES THAN THEY WERE PREVIOUSLY BRINGING IN. SO EVEN IN THAT RESPECT, THE POLICY HAS BEEN HAVING A POSITIVE IMPACT. OVER THE LAST TWO WEEKS, WE'VE SEEN LDV TAKE ORDERS FOR THE FIRST TIME FOR A FULLY ELECTRIC UTE IN NEW ZEALAND THAT WILL COME ON STREAM LATER THIS YEAR. SO THE POLICY IS HAVING THE IMPACT THAT WE INTENDED, AND ACTUALLY, WE'RE SEEING KIWIS FLOCKING TO CLEANER VEHICLES. IT'S SIX MONTHS, OR ALMOST SIX MONTHS SINCE YOU SCRAPPED AUCKLAND'S CYCLE BRIDGE ACROSS THE WAITEMATA HARBOUR. WHEN WILL AN ALTERNATIVE OPTION FOR AUCKLANDERS BECOME AVAILABLE? THERE'S A SHORT-TERM PIECE AND A LONG-TERM PIECE HERE. THE SHORT TERM PIECE IS THAT I'VE ASKED WAKA KOTAHI TO LOOK AT WHAT SOME SHORT-TERM OPTIONS ARE. THEY HAVE QUICKLY IDENTIFIED THAT THEY WILL HOLD, FOR THE FIRST TIME EVER, SOME DEDICATED AND APPROVED WALKING AND CYCLING EVENTS OVER THE WAITEMATA ON THE BRIDGE, AND THEY'LL LIKELY HAPPEN IN SUMMER NEXT YEAR. THERE'LL BE FURTHER ANNOUNCEMENTS THERE. SO THAT'S A START. WE'VE NEVER HAD THAT HAPPEN BEFORE. IN THE COMING MONTHS, THEY'LL ALSO COME TO ME WITH OTHER OPTIONS FOR HOW WE CAN SUPPORT WALKERS AND CYCLISTS TO COME ACROSS THE HARBOUR, AND THAT MIGHT INVOLVE USING SOME DIFFERENT MODES. SO WE'VE GOT SOME SHORT-TERM OPTIONS THERE. BUT FUNDAMENTALLY, ACCESS ON THE EXISTING BRIDGE IS A DECISION THAT LEGALLY SITS WITH THE WAKA KOTAHI BOARD. MY FOCUS IS LARGELY ON THE LONG-TERM HERE, AND THAT'S THE ALTERNATIVE WAITEMATA HARBOUR CROSSING WORK, AND I'M DETERMINED THAT THAT PROJECT` AT THE MOMENT, WE CURRENTLY HAVE ACCESS FOR CARS. THROUGH THAT PROJECT, WE NEED ACCESS FOR CARS; WE NEED ACCESS FOR PUBLIC TRANSPORT; AND WE NEED ACCESS FOR WALKERS AND CYCLISTS. WHEN WILL THAT SHORT-TERM OPTION ACTUALLY COME INTO EFFECT? LOOK, I WILL HAVE OPTIONS IN FRONT OF ME FROM WAKA KOTAHI IN THE NEXT ONE TO TWO MONTHS FOR DECISION-MAKING, AND WE'LL LOOK TO PROGRESS THOSE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE AFTER THEN. IN TERMS OF THE LONGER TERM, WE'LL HAVE OPTIONS OUT FOR CONSULTATION BY THE END OF THIS YEAR. IT'LL COST $40 MILLION TO HALVE THE COST OF PUBLIC TRANSPORT FOR THREE MONTHS. IN THE CONTEXT OF GOVERNMENT EXPENDITURE, THAT'S NOT VERY MUCH. WHY DOESN'T THE GOVERNMENT LOOK TO EXTEND THAT POLICY FURTHER? WHY NOT MAKE ALL PUBLIC TRANSPORT FREE? LOOK, WE'RE ALREADY GETTING A REALLY POSITIVE RESPONSE TO THIS POLICY. I WAS ON THE BUS THIS MORNING, IN FACT, AND LOTS OF PEOPLE ARE TAKING UP THE OPPORTUNITY TO GIVE PUBLIC TRANSPORT A GO. SO WHY NOT EXTEND IT? WELL, IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, WE HAVE ALREADY ANNOUNCED A POLICY THAT FROM THE 1ST OF JULY, WE'RE BRINGING IN WHAT'S CALLED THE COMMUNITY CONNECT CARD. IT'S A TRIAL IN AUCKLAND ` HALF-PRICE PUBLIC TRANSPORT FOR PEOPLE WITH A COMMUNITY SERVICES CARD, SO TRYING TO TARGET THAT SUPPORT INTO OUR LOWER-INCOME COMMUNITIES. BUT THIS WILL GO MUCH FURTHER. $40 MILLION OVER THREE MONTHS. WHY NOT MAKE IT TOTALLY FREE ALL THE TIME? SO, WE'VE PUT THIS POLICY IN PLACE TO DEAL WITH THOSE IMMEDIATE COST PRESSURES, AND WE'VE ALIGNED THAT THREE MONTHS WITH THE REDUCTION IN FUEL EXCISE DUTY AND ROAD USER CHARGES AS WELL. THAT'S AN IMMEDIATE RESPONSE. BUT WHAT WE HAVE SAID IS THAT WE WILL KEEP AN EYE ON THOSE COST-OF-LIVING PRESSURES. BUT ADDITIONALLY, THE GOVERNMENT'S RESPONSE TO THE CLIMATE COMMISSION AND OUR EMISSIONS REDUCTION PLAN WILL BE CONFIRMED IN MAY, AND I'VE SIGNALLED THAT, AS A PART OF THAT, WE ARE LOOKING VERY HARD AT, BROADLY SPEAKING, HOW WE IMPROVE PUBLIC TRANSPORT, INCLUDING THE COSTS. BUT WHAT WE HAVE TO BALANCE UP ON THAT ON THE BASIS OF EVIDENCE IS ` WHAT MAKES THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE? FARES ARE A PART OF IT. THAT'S WHY WE'RE LOOKING AT THESE THINGS. BUT ACTUALLY, THERE'S GOOD EVIDENCE THAT, JUST AS IMPORTANT, THE FREQUENCY OF SERVICES, THE RELIABILITY AND THE QUALITY OF SERVICES. SO WE'VE GOT TO LOOK AT HOW THE INVESTMENT` WHERE THE INVESTMENT GOES TO GET THE BEST EFFECT. IT'S ABOUT $400 MILLION IF WE WANTED TO MAKE PT FREE ACROSS THE COUNTRY. SO IT'S NOT A SMALL SPEND. WE HAVE TO LOOK AT WHETHER THAT MONEY IS BEST PUT INTO THAT OR BEST PUT INTO OTHER WAYS OF IMPROVING PUBLIC TRANSPORT. BUT REST ASSURED, IT'S ON THE RADAR, AND WE'RE GONNA DELIVER BETTER PUBLIC TRANSPORT SERVICES. AFTER THE BREAK ` WE GO LIVE TO THE TANGI FOR MOANA JACKSON. AND THEN A STARK WARNING YOU'VE GOTTA HEAR FROM AUSTRALIA'S FORMER PRIME MINISTER. HOW HE THINKS THE PACIFIC CAN HELP CHINA AND AMERICA TO AVOID A SERIOUS CONFLICT. KIA ORA, WELCOME BACK. THE GOVERNMENT INTRODUCED ITS FAIR PAY AGREEMENTS BILL THIS WEEK. IT'S A CONTENTIOUS PROPOSAL. UNDER THE BILL, EMPLOYEES WILL BE ABLE TO FORCE THEIR EMPLOYERS TO NEGOTIATE WORKING CONDITIONS AND PAY IF AT LEAST 10% OF THEIR WORKFORCE OR 1000 STAFF AGREED TO IT. BUT THE BILL DOESN'T INCLUDE THOSE WORKING AS CONTRACTORS. I ASKED MICHAEL WOOD, WHY NOT? A COUPLE OF IMPORTANT THINGS THERE ` THE FIRST IS THAT WE DO HAVE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PEOPLE IN EMPLOYMENT RELATIONSHIPS AND CONTRACTING ARRANGEMENTS AT THE MOMENT. THERE ARE VERY COMPLEX LEGALITIES AROUND CONTRACTORS BEING ABLE TO COLLECTIVELY BARGAIN, EFFECTIVELY IN THE LAW, THAT WOULD CURRENTLY BE CONSIDERED CARTEL BEHAVIOUR. SO IT WOULD BE ENORMOUSLY COMPLEX TO WORK THAT THROUGH, AND IT WOULD HAVE LIKELY DELAYED THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE FAIR PAY AGREEMENTS BILL, WHICH I'M DETERMINED WE DO GET THROUGH THIS YEAR. BUT WHAT WE HAVE DONE WITHIN THE BILL IS WE'VE PUT IN ADDITIONAL PROTECTIONS TO PROTECT EMPLOYEES FROM BEING MISCLASSIFIED AS CONTRACTORS. THERE ARE MORE POWERS FOR THE LABOUR INSPECTORATE, AND THERE ARE INCREASED PENALTIES IF THAT HAPPENS. AND THEN ALONGSIDE THE FAIR PAY AGREEMENTS BILL, WE HAVE A PIECE OF POLICY WORK THAT'S UNDERWAY NOW THAT'S BEEN TRIPARTITE WORK WITH THE CTU AND BUSINESS NEW ZEALAND TO TRY AND RESOLVE THAT CONTRACTORS ISSUE AND TO TRY AND GET THE DEFINITION RIGHT BETWEEN EMPLOYEES AND CONTRACTORS SO THAT PEOPLE AREN'T MISCLASSIFIED. WHAT MIGHT A RESOLUTION LOOK LIKE? WELL, THERE ARE A RANGE OF OPTIONS WHEN YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD. POTENTIALLY ONE OF THE THINGS IS JUST TO HAVE A BETTER AND CLEARER LEGAL TEST FOR WHAT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN EMPLOYEE AND A CONTRACTOR IS. SO IS A COURIER DRIVER A CONTRACTOR OR AN EMPLOYEE? WELL, THAT'S WHERE WE'D NEED TO HAVE A CLEAR TEST IN PLACE. AND I THINK MOST OF US COULD LOOK AROUND, AND WE'D SAY THERE ARE CLEARLY PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, IN YOUR PROFESSION, TECHIES AND THINGS, WHO ARE CONTRACTORS, WHO ARE HAPPY TO BE CONTRACTORS, WHO HAVE GENUINE CONTROL OVER THEIR OWN BUSINESS AND HOW THEY WORK, AND WE WOULDN'T WANT TO BE FORCING THEM TO CHANGE. AND THEN YOU LOOK AT A SECTOR LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, I CAN THINK OF CLEANING, WHERE YOU HAVE SOME VERY LOW-PAID PEOPLE, VERY LOW AMOUNT OF CONTROL OVER THEIR WORKING LIVES. THEY DON'T HAVE THE ABILITY TO GO AND GET OTHER WORK, AND YET, THEY'RE CONSIDERED CONTRACTORS. AND I THINK MOST OF US WOULD LOOK AT THAT AND SAY THAT DOESN'T FEEL QUITE RIGHT. AND SO IT'S ABOUT MAKING SURE THAT WE'VE GOT CLEAR RULES IN PLACE, POTENTIALLY, THAT ENABLE US TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THOSE TWO AND STOP THAT PERSON FROM BEING MISCLASSIFIED AND POTENTIALLY BEING WORSE OFF. IT'S A COMPLEX PIECE OF WORK. THAT'S WHY WE WORKED WITH THE CTU AND BUSINESS NEW ZEALAND TO REALLY EXAMINE THE ISSUES, AND I EXPECT TO HAVE MORE DIRECTION ON THIS ISSUE WITHIN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS THAT I'LL BE TALKING ABOUT. I KNOW THAT BUSINESS NEW ZEALAND HAS PULLED THEIR INVOLVEMENT FROM THE FAIR PAY AGREEMENTS, AND NATIONAL SAYS THEY WILL REPEAL FPAS. ARE YOU CONCERNED THAT ATTEMPTS TO GET AGREEMENTS THROUGH BEFORE THE ELECTION NEXT YEAR WILL LACK LEGITIMACY WITH BUSINESS IN NEW ZEALAND? NO, I CERTAINLY DON'T. IN RESPECT OF LEGITIMACY, THIS WAS A POLICY THAT THE LABOUR PARTY TRANSPARENTLY AND DEMOCRATICALLY CAMPAIGNED ON. IT WAS A PART OF OUR MANIFESTO AT THE LAST ELECTION, AND I'VE GOT A RESPONSIBILITY TO IMPLEMENT THEM ON THAT BASIS. THAT'S WHERE THE LEGITIMACY COMES FROM. BUT I THINK, MORE BROADLY, NEW ZEALANDERS WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH TWO YEARS OF COVID LOOK AT THE WORK OF OUR CLEANERS, OUR BUS DRIVERS, OUR AGED CARE WORKERS. THOSE PEOPLE HAVE HELPED GET OUR COUNTRY THROUGH, YET THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE SOMETIMES IN THE LOWEST-PAID, LEAST SECURE WORK. IT JUST DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT. IT'S NOT RIGHT, AND IT'S A CONSEQUENCE OF OUR VERY DEREGULATED EMPLOYMENT RELATIONS SYSTEM AT THE MOMENT. THAT'S WHAT FAIR PAY AGREEMENTS ARE ABOUT ` STOPPING THAT RACE TO THE BOTTOM AND GIVING THOSE PEOPLE A FAIRER GO. AND I THINK ACROSS NEW ZEALAND, THERE IS LEGITIMACY, FOR THAT REASON. MOREOVER, I ACTUALLY HAVE EMPLOYERS TELLING ME THAT THEY WANT TO SEE SOMETHING HAPPEN IN THIS SPACE, COS WE HAVE LOTS OF GOOD EMPLOYERS OUT THERE WHO WANT TO DO THE RIGHT THING, BUT IF THEY DO, THEY CAN GET UNDERCUT. FAIR PAY AGREEMENTS BASICALLY PUT A FLOOR IN PLACE SO THAT WE STOP COMPETITION BASED ON LOW WAGES AND ENCOURAGE COMPETITION BASED ON THE QUALITY OF SERVICES AND GOODS AND INNOVATION AND R&D. THAT'LL DRIVE OUR ECONOMY FORWARD. THAT IS MICHAEL wood. THOUSANDS OF MOURNERS HAVE BEEN WELCOMED AT MATAHIWI MARAE IN HAWKE'S BAY THIS WEEK, AS NGATI KAHUNGUNU MOURNS THE DEATH OF MAORI LEGAL RANGATIRA DR MOANA JACKSON. TERE HARRISON HAS BEEN AT THE TANGI AND IS WITH US NOW. KIA ORA. GIVE US A SENSE OF HOW TAKUTA JACKSON'S LEGACY HAS BEEN MARKED THIS WEEK. THE BEAUTY OF COMING TO MARAE AS WE SHARE EVERYTHING, BOTH OF THE BAD AND GOOD. AT A TANGI WE WERE ABLE TO HEAR NOT JUST HIS LEGAL EXPERTISE AND THE WORK HE IS KNOWN FOR, BUT SOME OF THOSE STORIES THAT ARE A BIT MORE ILLEGAL OF HIS ACTIVITY. THEY WERE OPENLY SHARED. THAT IS APPROPRIATE. THIS IS A PLACE WE CAN DO THAT. WE HEARD ABOUT SOME OF HIS WORK WITH HIS BROTHER, HONE HAREWERA AND OTHERS. THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF COMING TO THE MARAE ` YOU CAN SHARE THE INFORMATION YOU WOULD NOT NORMALLY SHARE IN A COURTROOM, WHERE HE WAS A FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH. CAN YOU GIVE US A SENSE, AND A BROADER CONTEXT PERHAPS, AS TO THE SIGNIFICANCE OF MOANA JACKSON IN TE AO MAORI. THEY COMPARED HIM TO BE OUR MALCOLM X, ALL OF THOSE LUMINARIES AROUND THE WORLD. THIS IS THE WEIGHT OF HAVING LOST SOMEONE LIKE MOANA. LOSING HIM HAS LEFT AN ENORMOUS VOID ` NOT JUST FOR NGATI KAHUNGUNU BUT FOR THE WORLD. ONE OF THE PREVALENT STORIES THAT ARE SHARED HERE AT THE MARAE WAS THAT HE MADE SPACE, PARTICULARLY FOR MAORI WOMEN. HE MADE SPACE HERE, AND HIS CAREER TO SUPPORT AND STRENGTHEN MAORI WOMEN. THOSE CAME TO THE FORE. THE WOMEN WERE SAFE WITH MOANA, AND HE FOUGHT FOR WOMEN. THAT WAS A LARGE SUBJECT SHED AT THE MARAE. IT HAS BEEN INTERESTING TO WATCH BECAUSE MOANA JACKSON HAD A SPECIFIC REQUEST WHEREBY HE ASKED FOR WOMEN AT HIS TANGI TO HAVE PERMISSION TO SPEAK. HOW HAS IT PLAYED OUT OVER THE LAST FEW DAYS? MOANA WAS TRANSFORMATIONAL. HE WAS LIGHT YEARS AHEAD OF THE MAJORITY OF US. IT TAKES A LITTLE WHILE FOR THE REST OF US TO CATCH UP. WHEN HE ASKED FOR WOMEN TO SPEAK AT HIS TANGI, IT TOOK A WHILE FOR US TO WARM UP TO THAT AND IT WAS INVITED TO SIT ON THE PAEPAE OF THE HOST AND THEN WOMEN WERE INVITED TO SPEAK. THE BEAUTY OF MOANA DOING THAT IS ONCE AGAIN HE IS MAKING CHANGE. EVEN IN DEATH, HE IS CREATING CHANGE, HE IS IGNITING FIRES. WILL THAT CONTINUE TOMORROW? WE HOPE SO. BUT HE GAVE US THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO THAT. YOU MAY JUST REMEMBER THAT THIS IS A NATURAL, THIS IS NORMAL, THIS IS NOT ABNORMAL. MAORI WOMEN HAVE ALWAYS SPOKEN SO WE WILL BE THANKFUL FOR THAT, AND HOPEFULLY IT WILL CONTINUE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME AND GOOD LUCK FOR THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS. THANK YOU. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT THE Q+A TEAM, PLEASE KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS. CONTACT US ON EMAIL, OR FIND US ON TWITTER OR ON FACEBOOK. UP NEXT ` A WARNING YOU'VE GOTTA HEAR. WHY EXPERTS THINK CHINA'S LATEST MOVES IN THE PACIFIC THE SOLOMON ISLANDS HAS NOW 'INITIALLED' A SECURITY DEAL WITH CHINA, WHICH COULD SEE CHINESE WARSHIPS IN ITS WATERS. NEW ZEALAND SENT PEACEKEEPERS TO THE SOLOMONS JUST LAST YEAR, AND JACINDA ARDERN SAYS SHE'S GRAVELY CONCERNED BY THE DEAL, WHICH WOULD FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE THE SECURITY DYNAMIC IN THE PACIFIC. HERE'S WHENA OWEN. THE SOLOMONS, A CHAIN OF JUST UNDER 1000 ISLANDS AND RICH IN RESOURCES. OVER THE CENTURIES, OUTSIDERS HAVE MINED ITS MINERALS, MILLED ITS NATIVE FORESTS, SAVED ITS SOULS, AND TAKEN ITS PEOPLE FOR SLAVE LABOUR. (ALL SING) IT'S GEOGRAPHIC POSITION HAS ALSO ATTRACTED FOREIGN INTEREST. JAPAN'S OCCUPATION IN 1942 SPARKED THE BATTLE OF GUADALCANAL. FAST-FORWARD TO THE 1990S, AND THE START OF DECADES OF POLITICAL AND SOCIAL UNREST. REPORTER: THE MALAITIAN REBELS APPEAR TO HAVE CONTROL OF HONIARA. THEY DO NOT RESPECT EVERYTHING THAT IS CREATED AND PUT IN THIS LAND. THAT IS THE MAIN CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM. FOLLOWING AN URGENT PLEA FOR HELP, AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND LED A PEACEKEEPING MISSION FROM 2003 KNOWN AS RAMSI. WE MUST BE SYMPATHETIC TO THE INTERESTS AND NEEDS OF THE SOLOMON ISLANDS PEOPLE. (MEN YELL) FLASHPOINTS OF UNREST CONTINUED. IN 2006, A NEWLY ELECTED PRIME MINISTER WAS PELTED WITH ROCKS AND BARRICADED INSIDE PARLIAMENT. AFTER TRAINING UP LOCAL POLICE, RAMSI WITHDREW FROM THE ISLANDS IN 2017. 2019 MARKED A NEW GEOPOLITICAL DAWN FOR THE SOLOMONS, AND REFERRED TO THERE AS THE SWITCH. THE SOLOMONS GOVERNMENT HAVING SEVERED ITS TIES WITH TAIWAN AND JOINED ALLEGIANCE WITH CHINA. THE SWITCH TO CHINA SAW RIOTS IN HONIARA, ESPECIALLY AMONG THE TAIWAN LOYAL MALAITIANS CALLING FOR THE RESIGNATION OF PRIME MINISTER MANASSEH SOGAVARE. THE CALL FOR ME TO STEP DOWN IS PREMISED ON THE HUNGER FOR POWER BY CERTAIN POLITICIANS. CHINESE-OWNED BUSINESSES WERE TARGETED IN THE RIOTS. AUSTRALIAN POLICE FLEW INTO HONIARA TO HELP AT THE SOLOMONS' REQUEST. THEN, JUST LAST WEEK, A DRAFT OF A SECURITY PACT BETWEEN CHINA AND THE SOLOMONS WAS LEAKED ON SOCIAL MEDIA. IT INCLUDED A PROPOSAL TO ALLOW CHINESE SHIPS INTO SOLOMON PORTS AND ENABLE CHINESE POLICE TO BE DEPLOYED TO THE SOLOMON ISLANDS. IT PROVOKED AN IMMEDIATE REACTION FROM REGIONAL LEADERS. WE CONTINUE TO HAVE THE SHARED CONCERNS OVER THE DEVELOPMENT OR THE ONGOING ISSUES WITH THE SOLOMON ISLANDS AND THEIR ENGAGEMENT WITH CHINA IN A WAY THAT IT MAY ADD TO THE MILITARISATION OF THE PACIFIC. I THINK EVENTS THAT YOU'VE SEEN MOST RECENTLY, I THINK, ONLY HIGHLIGHT THE CONSTANT PRESSURE AND THE CONSTANT` CONSTANT PUSH THAT IS COMING INTO THE REGION FROM INTERESTS THAT ARE NOT ALIGNED WITH AUSTRALIA'S AND NOT ALIGNED WITH THOSE OF THE PACIFIC MORE BROADLY. THIS LAST WEEK, PRIME MINISTER SOGAVARE RESPONDED TO THE OLD REGIONAL PARTNERS. I FIND IT VERY INSULTING, MR SPEAKER, TO BE BRANDED AS UNFIT TO MANAGE OUR SOVEREIGN AFFAIRS. AND THEN THIS FROM BEIJING ` TRANSLATOR: COUNTRIES SHOULD EARNESTLY RESPECT SOLOMON ISLANDS SOVEREIGNTY AND ITS INDEPENDENT DECISIONS INSTEAD OF DECIDING WHAT OTHERS SHOULD AND SHOULD NOT DO, SELF IMPORTANTLY AND CONDESCENDINGLY FROM A PRIVILEGED POSITION. THE SIGNED PACT HAS NOT ONLY HEIGHTENED GEOPOLITICAL TENSIONS IN THE PACIFIC, BUT ALSO UNCERTAINTY AT HOW IT WILL UNFOLD FOR SOLOMON ISLANDERS AT ITS EPICENTRE. THE SOLOMONS DEAL IS YET ANOTHER PLAY IN AN ESCALATING GEO-POLITICAL CONFLICT BETWEEN THE U.S. AND CHINA. FORMER AUSTRALIAN PRIME MINISTER AND CHINA ANALYST KEVIN RUDD SAYS THERE'S A RISK THE U.S.`CHINA COMPETITION COULD BOIL OVER INTO A SERIOUS MILITARY CONFLICT. I ASKED HIM TO ASSESS THE DEAL BETWEEN THE SOLOMONS AND CHINA. I THINK FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF AUSTRALIA'S AND NEW ZEALAND'S LONG-TERM SECURITY INTERESTS IN THE WIDER REGION AND THAT OF THE OTHER PACIFIC ISLAND STATES, I THINK IT IS A DISTURBING DEVELOPMENT. BUT HAVING SAID THAT, WE'VE GOT TO BE RESPECTFUL OF THE SOVEREIGNTY OF THE GOVERNMENT OF THE SOLOMON ISLANDS. PREACHING A LESSON FROM CANBERRA AND WELLINGTON IS NOT GOING TO HELP, BUT I THINK A MUCH MORE PROACTIVE INTERVENTION BY THE AUSTRALIANS, IN PARTICULAR, IS IMPORTANT, BECAUSE MELANESIA, WHICH IS WHERE THE SOLOMONS ARE LOCATED, HAS ALWAYS BEEN AN AREA OF PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY FOR AUSTRALIA, JUST AS WE IN AUSTRALIA HAVE ALWAYS SEEN POLYNESIA AS A PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY OF NEW ZEALAND. YOU USE THE PHRASE 'DISTURBING'. WHY IS THIS DEAL DISTURBING? WELL, I'VE BEEN A STUDENT OF CHINESE FOREIGN SECURITY POLICY FOR THE LAST 30 OR 40 YEARS. THAT'S WHY MY HAIR IS WHITE. THE... AND THE BOTTOM LINE IS, IF YOU LOOK AT CHINA'S FOREIGN SECURITY POLICY INTERESTS IN VARIOUS OTHER PARTS OF THE REGION AND THE WORLD, THESE ARE NOT DRIVEN SIMPLY BY PHILANTHROPIC CONCERNS. TAKE, FOR EXAMPLE, THE ESTABLISHMENT IN DJIBOUTI, IN THE RED SEA OF A CHINESE NAVAL BASE SOME YEARS AGO, WHICH CAUSED MANY PEOPLE IN THE WIDER REGION TO SCRATCH THEIR HEAD AS TO WHY CHINA NEEDED AN OVERSEAS NAVAL BASE IN A REMOTE COUNTRY LIKE DJIBOUTI NEAR THE HORN OF AFRICA. OF COURSE, THE ANSWER IS THAT CHINA WANTS LOGISTICAL SUPPORT FOR ITS OWN NAVAL FORCES ACROSS THE INDIAN OCEAN. IN THE CASE OF THE SOUTHWEST PACIFIC, CHINA'S STRATEGIC INTERESTS I THINK ARE OF A DIFFERENT NATURE, PROBABLY THREEFOLD. ONE IS THE ABILITY TO... IN A CRISIS, TO POTENTIALLY INTERDICT THE AUSTRALIAN NAVAL LINES OF COMMUNICATION AND MARITIME LINES OF COMMUNICATION WITH THE UNITED STATES AND WITH JAPAN. THE SECOND IS, OF COURSE, THE PROXIMITY OF CRITICAL UNDERSEA CABLES, WHICH SERVICE BOTH THE AUSTRALIAN AND NEW ZEALAND TELECOMMUNICATION SYSTEMS, INCLUDING SECURE ONES. AND THEN, THIRDLY, OF COURSE, THERE'S AN ECONOMIC INTEREST, WHICH IS THE FUTURE OF FISHERIES. AND THIS IS A HUGE ECONOMIC INTEREST TO CHINA, GIVEN THE PRESSURE ON THEIR OWN FISHERIES RESOURCES IN THE SOUTH CHINA SEA AND ELSEWHERE. IF INDEED THIS PROCEEDS, WHAT WILL BE THE IMPACT IN THE PACIFIC? WELL, I THINK LET'S NOT SPECULATE ON THE HYPOTHETICALS AT THIS STAGE. AS YOU CORRECTLY POINTED OUT IN YOUR INTRODUCTION, THIS IS A DRAFT ONLY. I WOULD ENCOURAGE THE AUSTRALIAN FOREIGN MINISTER, MARISE PAYNE, TO SPEND SOME TIME ON THE GROUND IN HONIARA WITH THE SOLOMON ISLANDS COUNTERPART AND WITH THE PRIME MINISTER JUST WORKING THIS THROUGH CALMLY AND CORRECTLY. YOU SEE, IT DOES COME OFF THE BACK OF WHAT I WOULD DESCRIBE AS A PERIOD OF SOME CONSIDERABLE NEGLIGENCE ON THE PART OF THE CURRENT CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT OF AUSTRALIA IN TWO PARTICULAR AREAS. SO ONE IS THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT, AFTER MY GOVERNMENT LEFT OFFICE AT THE END OF 2013, SIGNIFICANTLY CUT BACK ITS OVERALL AID FLOWS TO THE PACIFIC ISLAND COUNTRIES BY HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS. THESE WERE ONLY REALLY RESTORED, FRANKLY, IN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS. BUT THERE WAS A LOSS OF A CONSIDERABLE AMOUNT OF DIRECT SUPPORT FOR THE FINANCES OF MICRO ECONOMIES, WHERE WITHDRAWING $50M OR $100M FROM THE REGION ACTUALLY MATTERS IN BUDGET BOTTOM LINES. THE SECOND WAS THE AUSTRALIAN CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT'S, SHALL WE SAY, RETROGRADE VIEW ON CLIMATE CHANGE. PACIFIC ISLANDS FORUM A LONG TIME AGO DECLARED THAT CLIMATE CHANGE WAS THE LARGEST SECURITY CHALLENGE IT FACED IN THE WIDER REGION. AND YET YOU HAD THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT, AS IT WERE, JOINING THE BANDWAGON WITH THE CLIMATE CHANGE DENIALISTS INTERNATIONALLY, RATHER THAN ACTING AS A VOICE FOR THE ISLAND STATES IN INTERNATIONAL FORUMS WHICH GOVERNMENTS LIKE NEW ZEALAND, UNDER PRIME MINISTER ARDERN, AND AS WELL AS GOVERNMENTS SUCH AS MY OWN WHEN WE WERE IN OFFICE, TOOK SERIOUSLY. I WANT TO PICK UP ON SOMETHING YOU SAID IN THE FIRST PART OF THAT ANSWER. YOU SUGGESTED THIS ISN'T A DONE DEAL. ALTHOUGH THE DEAL HAS BEEN INITIALLED, THERE IS STILL SOME HOPE, AT LEAST, FROM THE AUSTRALIAN AND NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT'S PERSPECTIVE THAT THEY CAN INTERVENE AND STOP THIS FROM ACTUALLY COMING INTO FRUITION. WELL, AGAIN, LET'S JUST SEE WHAT PATIENT DIPLOMACY, NON-HECTORING DIPLOMACY ACTUALLY DELIVERS. YOU SEE, WHEN MY GOVERNMENT WAS IN OFFICE, WE HAD A FULL-TIME PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY ANSWERABLE TO THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE FOREIGN MINISTER RESPONSIBLE FOR PACIFIC ISLAND COUNTRIES. THEY SPENT THEIR ENTIRE TIME ON AN AEROPLANE WITH 13 PACIFIC ISLAND COUNTRIES BUILDING AND MAINTAINING RELATIONSHIPS WITH THESE STATES, WHICH HAVE HISTORICALLY HAD THE CLOSEST OF RELATIONSHIPS WITH BOTH WELLINGTON AND WITH CANBERRA. SO I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF WORK TO BE DONE IN REBUILDING THAT. I CAN'T PREDICT THE OUTCOME OF THE AUSTRALIAN ELECTION, WHICH WILL BE HELD IMMINENTLY, BUT I DO KNOW FOR A FACT THAT THE PERSONALITIES OF THE MOST SENIOR LEVELS OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOUR PARTY TAKE THIS REGION DEEPLY SERIOUSLY. FOR EXAMPLE, THE CURRENT DEPUTY LEADER OF THE AUSTRALIAN LABOUR PARTY, AND IF THEY'RE ELECTED, THE DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER, RICHARD MARLES, WAS IN PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY FOR PACIFIC ISLAND COUNTRIES. HE KNOWS THE REGION LIKE THE BACK OF HIS HAND. IT'S THAT SORT OF, FRANKLY, INTIMATE DIPLOMACY WHICH IS NOW NEEDED TO FIND A WAY THROUGH. I APPRECIATE THAT THE SOLOMON ISLANDS ARE GEOGRAPHICALLY MUCH CLOSER TO AUSTRALIA THAN NEW ZEALAND. BUT NEW ZEALAND HAD PEACEKEEPERS IN THE SOLOMONS JUST LAST YEAR. HAS NEW ZEALAND DONE A MEANINGFULLY BETTER JOB AT NURTURING DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH THOSE PACIFIC STATES THAN AUSTRALIA? I'M NOT REALLY IN A POSITION TO COMPARE COUNTRY BY COUNTRY BY COUNTRY, BECAUSE I NOW HEAD AN AMERICAN THINK TANK IN NEW YORK, WHERE I'M SPEAKING TO YOU FROM. IT'S THE ASIA POLICY INSTITUTE, HEADQUARTERED IN THE UNITED STATES. SO WE LOOK AT THE BROAD DYNAMICS OF THE U.S.-CHINA RELATIONSHIP ACROSS THE WIDER REGION AND GLOBALLY. BUT I WOULD SAY, MORE GENERALLY, THAT I'VE FOUND OUR COLLEAGUES IN WELLINGTON HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE ATTENTIVE OVER THE YEARS, DEALING WITH THE GRANULARITY OF RELATIONSHIPS ACROSS THE PACIFIC ISLAND COUNTRIES IN GENERAL. AND I HAVE FOUND, IN FACT, THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT FROM TIME TO TIME TO HAVE BEEN, FRANKLY, HIGH-HANDED IN THE WAY IN WHICH THEY'VE HANDLED THE ARTICULATED CONCERNS OF THE FOREIGN COUNTRIES. FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN YOU HAVE SENIOR MINISTERS OF THE CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT LAUGHING PUBLICLY ABOUT THESE GOVERNMENT'S EXISTENTIAL CONCERNS ABOUT RISING SEA LEVELS AND COASTAL INUNDATION, IT CREATES A BAD TASTE IN THE MOUTH ACROSS THE REGION. WE NEED TO, AS IT WERE, FIND A CIRCUIT-BREAKER FOR THAT FROM THE AUSTRALIAN ANGLE. I THINK THE KIWIS, BY AND LARGE, HAVE KEPT UP THEIR END OF THE BARGAIN. BUT ACROSS THE WIDER REGION, IT HAS ALWAYS REQUIRED AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND TO WORK LIKE THAT ACROSS THIS VAST SLICE OF THE SOUTHWEST PACIFIC. YOUR NEW BOOK, THE AVOIDABLE WAR, CONSIDERS THE IMPLICATIONS OF A POORLY MANAGED GEOPOLITICAL CONFLICT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA. WHAT ARE PRESIDENT XI'S ULTIMATE ASPIRATIONS WHEN IT COMES TO GEOPOLITICAL INFLUENCE? WELL, IN WRITING THIS BOOK, WHAT I'VE TRIED TO DO IS TO GO BACK AND READ A LOT OF THE PARTY'S INTERNAL DOCUMENTS. THESE ARE NOT CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS. THESE ARE ONES CIRCULATED DOMESTICALLY WITHIN CHINA, USUALLY WITHOUT TRANSLATION, ON HOW THE PARTY UNDER XI JINPING VIEWS ITS FUTURE IN THE REGION OF THE WORLD. AND THE CONCLUSION THAT I REACH AND MANY OTHER ANALYSTS REACH IS THAT XI JINPING'S AMBITION FOR HIS COUNTRY, I BELIEVE, IS TO DELIVER CHINA INTO THE POSITION OF BEING THE DOMINANT MILITARY, ECONOMIC AND TECHNOLOGICAL POWER IN THE WIDER REGION, LET'S CALL IT THE ASIA-PACIFIC REGION OR THE INDO-PACIFIC REGION, AND OVER A SLIGHTLY LONGER PERIOD OF TIME, TO DO SO GLOBALLY. AND IT'S FOR THOSE REASONS THAT CHINA AND THE UNITED STATES NOW FIND THEMSELVES INTO A SUSTAINED PERIOD OF STRATEGIC COMPETITION. THEY MAY NOT USE THE LANGUAGE THAT THEY ARE STRATEGIC COMPETITORS ALL THE TIME, BUT, FRANKLY, IF YOU LOOK BENEATH THE SURFACE OF ALL THE DIPLOMATIC LANGUAGE, THAT'S THE REALITY OF WHAT'S GOING ON. THE PURPOSE OF THE BOOK IS TO TRY AND FIND A WAY THROUGH THIS STRATEGIC COMPETITION, BECAUSE I THINK IT'S DANGEROUS TO HAVE UNMANAGED STRATEGIC COMPETITION WITH NO GUARDRAILS, NO RULES OF THE ROAD, NO NOTHING, BECAUSE THEN YOU RUN THE RISK OF CRISIS, ESCALATION, CONFLICT AND WAR. I'VE ARGUED IN THE BOOK IN THE PRINCIPLES OUTLINED THERE FOR A JOINT FRAMEWORK OF MANAGED STRATEGIC COMPETITION BETWEEN THESE TWO POWERFUL COUNTRIES. I KNOW THAT IN YOUR POSITION NOW, YOU CONSIDER BROAD GEOPOLITICAL TRENDS. BUT I WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT NEW ZEALAND AND ITS POSITION AS IT TRIES TO MANAGE ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA. CHINA IS NEW ZEALAND'S BIGGEST TRADING PARTNER. AT THE MOMENT, WE PURSUE AN INDEPENDENT FOREIGN POLICY TRYING TO WALK THAT DELICATE LINE IN CALLING OUT CHINA FOR HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AT TIMES, BUT ALSO PROTECTING OUR TRADE INTERESTS. IS THAT A SUSTAINABLE APPROACH GOING FORWARD? WELL, YOU KNOW, THIS KIND OF WALKING AND CHEWING GUM ON CHINA'S STRATEGY FOR ALL THE DEMOCRACIES, NOT JUST NEW ZEALAND AND NOT JUST AUSTRALIA, IS A REALLY TRICKY BUSINESS. SO NEW ZEALAND IS NOT ROBINSON CRUSOE, BUT FRANKLY, TO BE FAIR, WITH THE CURRENT CONSERVATIVE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT, NEITHER IS AUSTRALIA. NOW THEY'VE PURSUED SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT COURSES. BUT IF WE WERE TO BE IN TOKYO RIGHT NOW IN A DISCUSSION WITH THE GOVERNMENT OF JAPAN, THEY WOULD BE HAVING EXACTLY THE SAME DISCUSSION, THE SAME IN SEOUL, WHERE THEY JUST RECENTLY ELECTED A NEW PRESIDENT, AND SO TOO ACROSS ALL OF SOUTHEAST ASIA AND SO TOO ACROSS THE COUNTRIES OF NORTHERN EUROPE AND BROADER WESTERN EUROPE. AND THE TENSIONS ARE ALIVE IN AFRICA AND LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN, AND AS WE'VE JUST DISCOVERED, IN THE PACIFIC ISLAND COUNTRIES AS WELL. SO MY ARGUMENT IS, LOOK, FOR THOSE OF US WHO ARE DEMOCRACIES, THERE ARE FOUR OR FIVE PRINCIPLES FOR US ALL TO BEAR IN MIND. ONE, BE VERY CLEAR WITH THE CHINESE THAT WE ARE ADHERENT TO UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS ANCHORED IN THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION IN '48. NUMBER TWO, WE'RE ALLIES OF THE UNITED STATES, IN THE CASE OF AUSTRALIA, STRATEGIC PARTNERS IN THE CASE OF NEW ZEALAND. AND IN BOTH OUR CASES, THAT'S BEEN THE CASE SINCE THE SECOND WORLD WAR AND ARGUABLY SINCE THE FIRST WORLD WAR. THIRDLY, LET'S PROFIT AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE THROUGH AN EXPANDING TRADE AND INVESTMENT RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN US, FORCING US TO COLLABORATE IN THE INSTITUTIONS OF GLOBAL GOVERNANCE, PARTICULARLY IN CRITICAL CHALLENGES SUCH AS CLIMATE CHANGE. AND FIFTHLY, IF WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A DISAGREEMENT WITH BEIJING, MY PRACTICAL ADVICE TO WELLINGTON, CANBERRA, ELSEWHERE, IS IT'S FAR BETTER WE DO SO TOGETHER RATHER THAN BE PICKED OFF BY BEIJING INDIVIDUALLY. THAT'S KIND OF THE APPROACH WHICH I WOULD RECOMMEND TO DEMOCRACIES AROUND THE WORLD. THAT'S FORMER AUSTRALIA PRIME MINISTER, KEVIN RUDD. HIS NEW BOOK IS THE AVOIDABLE WAR: THE DANGERS OF A CATASTROPHIC CONFLICT BETWEEN THE U.S AND XI JINPING'S CHINA. AFTER THE BREAK, HAVE YOU EVER HEARD A JUDGE SPEAK LIKE THIS? WHEN A CULTURE LOSES THEIR IDENTITY, THEIR LANGUAGE, THEY'RE DISPLACED, IT'S HARD. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE. AN INTERVIEW YOU'VE GOTTA SEE WITH THE NEW CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER. JUDGE FRANCES EIVERS HAS SPENT A LOT OF TIME WITH YOUNG PEOPLE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HEAP. IN THE SPACE OF A FEW DAYS, SHE WENT FROM PRESIDING OVER THEM AS A DISTRICT COURT JUDGE IN MANUKAU TO ADVOCATING FOR THEM AS NEW ZEALAND'S NEW CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER. BUT NOW, THE GOVERNMENT IS PROPOSING TO SCRAP THE CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER ROLE TO REPLACE IT WITH A BOARD, AS PART OF THE ORANGA TAMARIKI REFORMS. I SAT DOWN WITH JUDGE EIVERS AND ASKED HER WHY SHE TOOK THE ROLE. I COME FROM A SMALL RURAL COMMUNITY IN THE EASTERN BAY OF PLENTY CALLED TE TEKO, AND I CAME FROM A LOVING FAMILY. AS A LAWYER AND THEN A JUDGE AND ALSO A MOTHER, I'VE ALWAYS BEEN INVOLVED WITH CHILDREN, AND I SUPPOSE, PARTICULARLY AS A JUDGE IN SOUTH AUCKLAND, MAINLY IN THE MANUKAU COURT, I COULD SEE THAT THERE WERE SO MANY CHILDREN THAT WERE` MOKOPUNA THAT WERE MISSING OUT, THAT DIDN'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITIES THAT OTHERS HAD. AND SO WHEN THIS JOB CAME UP, I JUST THOUGHT, 'MAYBE I CAN USE MY SKILLS AND MY KNOWLEDGE AND MY LIFE EXPERIENCE 'TO TRY AND HELP OUR CHILDREN.' WHO ARE THOSE MOKO? WHO ARE THOSE CHILDREN, AND WHAT IS LIFE LIKE FOR THEM? I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THE YOUTH COURT, AND MOST OF THEM ARE BOYS. THERE ARE A FEW YOUNG GIRLS COMING THROUGH THESE DAYS. MOST OF THEM HAVE NOT BEEN IN SCHOOL SINCE THEY WERE ABOUT 10, MAYBE 12. THEY GET... THEIR PARENTS ARE OFTEN STRUGGLING. DAD COULD BE IN PRISON. THEY DON'T HAVE MUCH FOOD IN THEIR CUPBOARD. THEY END UP GETTING INVOLVED IN GANGS OR JUST WANDERING THE STREETS AND GETTING INTO TROUBLE BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE USUAL SUPPORT, LOVE AND GUIDANCE THAT OTHER CHILDREN HAVE. EVEN THOUGH` IT'S NOT TO SAY THEIR PARENTS DON'T LOVE THEM. THEY DO; THEY'RE JUST STRUGGLING TOO. BUT WHAT ALWAYS AMAZED ME ABOUT THESE KIDS WAS HOW MUCH ENERGY AND... HOW INTELLIGENT THEY WERE AND HOW THEY STILL SEEMED TO HAVE AN OUTLOOK ON LIFE THAT INSPIRED HOPE. SO THEY MIGHT COME IN FROM THE CUSTODY SIDE OF THE COURTROOM, TAKE ONE LOOK AT ME AND GO, 'HELLO, MISS,' AS IF I'D GO, 'DON'T YOU "HELLO, MISS" ME.' 'WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THERE?' AND YOU END UP HAVING A REALLY GOOD KORERO WITH THESE KIDS. MOST OF THEM HAVE CARE AND PROTECTION BACKGROUNDS. AND IT IS TO ME, IN ALL MY WORK, REALLY ` AS A LAWYER GOING WAY BACK, AND A JUDGE ` I'VE ALWAYS THOUGHT IF ONLY WE COULD WRAP AROUND WHANAU WHO ARE STRUGGLING; IF ONLY WE COULD SUPPORT THEM SO THAT THEY HAVE THIS... THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO THEN SUPPORT THEIR CHILDREN WHO THEY LOVE. WHY DO WE HAVE SO MANY CHILDREN IN THIS POSITION IN AOTEAROA? WELL, THERE'S LOTS OF THEORIES ABOUT IT. I HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT... AND IT IS HIGH AMONGST MAORI, AS WE ALL KNOW ` IS THAT COLONISATION'S HAD A HUGE IMPACT. I ALSO THINK THAT IT'S NOW INTERGENERATIONAL. WHEN A CULTURE LOSES THEIR IDENTITY, THEIR LANGUAGE, THEY'RE DISPLACED, IT'S HARD. YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE. SO, MY PREDECESSORS IN THE COURT ` ACTUALLY JUDGE BECROFT AND THE PRESENT JUDGE, CHIEF HEEMI TAUMAUNU ` THEY STARTED THE PACIFIC` UH, RANGATAHI COURTS, WHERE WE HAVE COURTS IN THE MARAE FOR YOUNG PEOPLE SO THAT THEY CAN GO BACK AND FIND OUT WHETHER THEY ACTUALLY CAME FROM. 'HE KAKANO AHAU, I RUIA MAI I RANGIATEA' ` 'EVERY CHILD IS A SEED BORN IN HEAVEN', AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT CERTAINLY DRIVES ME, BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THEY ALL CAME FROM, AND THEY ALL DESERVE TO REALISE THEIR LIMITLESS POTENTIAL. YOU WERE ABLE TO WITNESS... ALL OF THESE THEORETICAL INEQUITIES... IN A REAL-LIFE CONTEXT IN THE COURT. ARE THERE CASES THAT STICK OUT TO YOU? ARE THERE INSTANCES THAT STICK OUT TO YOU THAT YOU THINK BEST ILLUSTRATE THE DISCREPANCY BETWEEN THE KIDS AT THE TOP AND THE KIDS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HEAP? I THINK THE BEST WAY I CAN DESCRIBE THAT TO YOU, JACK, IS THAT I'M A MOTHER OF THREE SONS, NOW YOUNG MEN. AND AS THEY WERE` ONE OF THEM WOULD BE 14 OR 16 OR 17 OR WHATEVER, A YOUNG MAN WOULD WALK IN FRONT OF ME WHO WAS THE SAME AGE, AND I WOULD JUST THINK, 'THAT COULD BE MY SON.' AND HE WAS CAUGHT... OR FOUND RUNNING AROUND THE STREETS AT 4 IN THE MORNING. I MEAN, THAT SHOULDN'T BE HAPPENING TO A YOUNG PERSON. THEY SHOULD BE LOVED. THEY SHOULD BE NURTURED. THEIR WHANAU SHOULD BE IN A POSITION TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT FOR THEM. AND THEY END UP OFTEN PUTTING NOT ONLY THEMSELVES IN HUGE POSITIONS OF RISK, BUT ALSO THE PUBLIC. AND THERE WERE INSTANCES WHERE I WOULD SEE A YOUNG MAN ON A FRIDAY, AND THEN I'D PICK UP THE HERALD ON A SATURDAY, AND HE WAS GONE ` CAR ACCIDENT. STOLEN CAR. CAR ACCIDENT. SO THOSE ARE THE THINGS THAT REALLY STRIKE AT YOUR HEART WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH THESE RANGATAHI, BECAUSE THEY'RE RIGHT THERE. THEY'RE ONLY A COUPLE OF METRES AWAY FROM YOU, AND YOU'RE TALKING TO THEM, AND YOU'RE TRYING TO ENGAGE WITH THEM, AND THEY'RE JUST KIDS THAT WANT TO LIVE A GOOD LIFE. YOU ARE WAHINE MAORI WITH A DISTINGUISHED AND IMPRESSIVE CAREER. SO WHAT IS IT THAT DISTINGUISHES YOUR EXPERIENCES ` GIVEN YOU'VE BEEN SUBJECT TO THE SAME COLONISATION ` FROM THE RANGATAHI WHO APPEARED BEFORE YOU IN THE COURT? I HAD VERY LOVING PARENTS. MY FATHER'S PAKEHA, OF IRISH DESCENT. MY MOTHER IS MANIAPOTO, AND SHE GREW UP IN THAT REGION. SHE WAS A TEACHER. SHE WAS EDUCATED. I THINK PERHAPS THAT'S THE KEY. BUT HAVING SAID THAT, NOT EVERYBODY... SUFFERS, I SUPPOSE, OR DOESN'T GET PLACES. IT'S PROBABLY ABOUT 10% OF OUR MOKOPUNA. AND, YOU KNOW, WE REGRET, AND I KNOW BEFORE MY MOTHER PASSED AWAY, SHE WAS DESPERATELY TRYING TO FIND HER IDENTITY. SHE WAS LEARNING RARANGA. SHE WAS IN THE MIDST OF MAKING HERSELF` MAKING US A KOROWAI. SHE WAS VERY... THERE WAS EXTREME MAMAE ABOUT THE FACT THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE THE REO. HOWEVER, I GREW UP WITH SMATTERINGS OF IT. I THINK PERHAPS THE KEY IS EDUCATION AND A CONNECTION TO WHANAU, AND PERHAPS A LOT OF THIS IS ACTUALLY TO DO WITH URBANISATION, THAT SORT OF DRIFT THAT WE KNOW ABOUT FROM THE '50S WHERE PEOPLE WERE DISCONNECTED FROM WHANAU. THAT'S JUST MY THEORY, BUT I THINK THERE'S PLENTY OF LITERATURE OUT THERE TO SUPPORT IT. IN THE FACE OF CRISIS, OUR GOVERNMENT HAS SHOWN AT TIMES A CAPACITY TO ACT INCREDIBLY QUICKLY. THEY CLOSED THE BORDERS OVERNIGHT. THEY PUMPED OUT BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN BUSINESS SUPPORT IN THE FACE OF THE PANDEMIC. GIVEN THIS GOVERNMENT WAS ELECTED ON A PROMISE TO AGGRESSIVELY TACKLE CHILD POVERTY IN NEW ZEALAND, IS IT ACTING WITH THE SPEED AND AT THE SCALE THAT THE CRISIS WARRANTS? I'D HAVE TO SAY NO. I KNOW THERE HAVE BEEN REAL EFFORTS, AND I KNOW THAT COVID'S GOT IN THE WAY, BUT IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO TACKLE WITH THE SAME SORT OF SPEED AND EFFICIENCY. WE NEED TO LIFT THOSE CHILDREN OUT OF POVERTY SO THAT THEY HAVE THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES. AND IF WE DO THAT, THEN WE'RE GOING TO MAKE A HUGE DIFFERENCE, NOT ONLY TO THEM AND THEIR LIVES AND EVEN ONE INDIVIDUAL CHILD, BUT THE WHOLE COUNTRY. AND WE KIND OF WORK ON THAT. YOU KNOW, 70% OF THE MOKOPUNA ARE DOING FINE. 20% OF MOKOPUNA ARE NOT DOING SO WELL. BUT THERE'S 10% WHO ARE REALLY STRUGGLING, AND WE NEED TO GET RID OF THAT 10%. I JUST REMEMBER ALL THOSE BOLD CLAIMS ABOUT TACKLING THIS CRISIS. IT WAS SOMETHING THAT HAD A LOT OF SUPPORT WITH THE GENERAL PUBLIC, BUT WE HAVE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF KIDS LIVING IN POVERTY. WE HAVE RECORD NUMBERS OF PEOPLE ACCESSING SUPPORT FROM FOOD BANKS. WHAT SHOULD BE THE GOVERNMENT'S PRIORITY FROM THIS POINT FORTH TO TRY AND MAKE A MEANINGFUL DIFFERENCE IN THAT SPACE? THE GOVERNMENT DO NEED TO LOOK AT THE POLICIES THAT THEY'VE GOT IN PLACE. THEY DO NEED TO LOOK AT THE GOOD PROGRAMMES THAT ARE IN PLACE, AND IT NEEDS TO COVER ALL SPECTRUMS. SO, POVERTY, THERE ARE SO MANY ISSUES WITHIN POVERTY ` HOUSING, FOR EXAMPLE. AND IN COURT, SO MANY RANGATAHI AND WHANAU CAME BEFORE ME WHO WERE LIVING IN MOTELS, LIVING IN CARS ` REALLY DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES FOR THEM. EDUCATION ` GET CHILDREN BACK INTO EDUCATION. INCOME... IS A BIG, BIG PICTURE, IN MY VIEW. IT'S ABOUT GETTING PEOPLE BACK INTO WORK, GETTING THEIR DIGNITY BACK, LETTING THEM HAVE CONFIDENCE, SUPPORTING THEM IN THAT ROLE. AND ONE OF THE BEST REPORTS, IN MY VIEW, IS THE ONE THAT WAS DONE, I THINK 2019 OR 2020, WHICH WAS WHAKAMANA TANGATA, AND IT ENCOMPASSES` AND WAS LED BY DR TRACY MCINTOSH AND OTHERS, AND IT COVERS ALL OF THOSE ISSUES. THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO PUT THE SAME FOCUS IN, NOW THAT COVID IS PASSING THROUGH. I WOULD REALLY URGE THE GOVERNMENT TO GET BACK INTO LOOKING AT CHILD POVERTY AND ALL OF THE ISSUES THAT AFFECT OUR MOKOPUNA AND CHILDREN ACROSS AOTEAROA TO LIFT THEM OUT OF THAT POVERTY AND DEPRIVATION. I APPRECIATE YOU HAVEN'T BEEN IN THE ROLE FOR TOO LONG, BUT IN YOUR TIME AS COMMISSIONER, WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT AS TO HOW ORANGA TAMARIKI IS FUNCTIONING? IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION, BECAUSE I'VE OBVIOUSLY WORKED WITH ORANGA TAMARIKI RIGHT THROUGH WHEN I WAS A LAWYER. ORANGA TAMARIKI IS TRYING TO MAKE CHANGES, AND THAT'S A GOOD THING, BUT THEY'RE A LONG WAY OFF HAVING THOSE IMPLEMENTED. AND I SUPPORT ORANGA TAMARIKI IMPROVING ALL OF ITS PRACTICES AND PROCESSES SO IT CAN ACTUALLY BE ORANGA TAMARIKI. IT'S IMPORTANT THAT OUR CHILDREN AND OUR WHANAU HAVE A PLACE, HAVE A STATE CARE AND INTERVENTION THAT IS SAFE, THAT THEY TRUST, AND IN TIMES OF CRISIS, BECAUSE THEY WON'T NEED THAT FOREVER. AND I WILL BE SUPPORTING AND URGING ORANGA TAMARIKI TO KEEP THAT IN MIND. I HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT IF WE LOOKED AT ALL THE LEGISLATION AND THOUGHT ` WE PUT OUR MOKOPUNA, OUR CHILDREN AT THE CENTRE ` HOW DO THE POLICY CHANGES, RECOMMENDATIONS, HOW DOES THAT FRAME OUR LEGISLATION? WHAT DO THE CHILDREN SAY? WHAT DO THEIR WHANAU SAY? WHAT DO THEY SAY THAT THEY NEED? WE NEED TO LISTEN TO THEIR VOICES. WHAT'S YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THE OVERSIGHT BILL? THE OVERSIGHT BILL HAS GOOD INTENTIONS, BUT I AM CONCERNED, PRIMARILY, THAT IT REMOVES THE ROLE OF CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER. CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER IS A STRONG, INDEPENDENT ADVOCATE FOR CHILDREN. EVERYONE KNOWS THERE'S A CHILDREN'S COMMISSIONER OUT THERE WHO'S GOING TO STAND UP FOR THEM AND SAY WHAT NEEDS TO BE SAID. IT'S BEING REPLACED WITH A COMMISSION, A BOARD. WELL, THAT'S THE PROPOSAL. I'M URGING THE GOVERNMENT TO THINK VERY, VERY SERIOUSLY ABOUT THAT. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY'VE PROPOSED THIS CHANGE? LET ME ASK THIS ` AND THIS IS PERHAPS A LITTLE PROVOCATIVE ` BUT DO YOU THINK THAT... THERE IS CONCERN IN SOME QUARTERS THAT YOU AND PERHAPS YOUR PREDECESSOR ARE PERHAPS A LITTLE TOO VOCAL IN SOME OF YOUR CRITICISMS, AND THAT BY REPLACING THE COMMISSIONER ROLE WITH A BOARD, PERHAPS SOME OF THOSE CRITICISMS WOULDN'T BE PUBLIC IN THE SAME WAY? I'M HOPING THAT'S NOT THE REASON. CALL ME A CYNIC, JUDGE. (BOTH LAUGH) I'M HOPING THAT IT'S NOT THE REASON, BECAUSE THE WHOLE POINT OF A CHILD'S ADVOCATE IS TO SPEAK UP, AND THAT PROVIDES AN OPPORTUNITY, ACTUALLY, FOR ANY GOVERNMENT TO LOOK AT WHAT THEY'RE DOING AND THINK, OK, IS THAT OK FOR OUR MOKOPUNA? IS THAT OK FOR OUR CHILDREN OR NOT? IT SEEMS TO ME ` AND AS YOU SAY, I'M SORT OF FAIRLY NEW TO IT ` THERE SEEMS TO BE A MOVE ACROSS GOVERNMENT TO SET UP BOARDS AND COMMISSIONS, AND PERHAPS IT'S CONSIDERED THAT THIS IS THE BEST MODEL, BUT IT'S NOT. AND I SAY THAT BECAUSE A BOARD IS... A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO` ANY OF US WHO HAVE SAT ON BOARDS KNOW THAT IT TAKES TIME, IT TAKES ENERGY TO FORM COLLABORATIONS, TO FORM RELATIONSHIPS, TO WORK OUT HOW THAT BOARD CAN OPERATE EFFECTIVELY. OUR CHILDREN DON'T HAVE THAT TIME. THERE ARE ISSUES RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW THAT AN ADVOCATE NEEDS TO STAND UP FOR, AND INDEED, THE ORANGA TAMARIKI ACT ` ONE OF THE PRINCIPLES IN THERE IS THAT WE DO THINGS IN A CHILD'S TIME FRAME. A BOARD ISN'T SET UP... IT'S NOT A MECHANISM THAT CAN ADVOCATE. BEFORE WE LEAVE YOU, IT HAS BEEN A SAD WEEK, I KNOW. THE PASSING OF MOANA JACKSON, A RANGATIRA IN THE MAORI LEGAL SPACE IN PARTICULAR. I JUST WONDERED, AS A WAHINE MAORI WHO'S HAD A DISTINGUISHED LEGAL CAREER, IF YOU HAD ANY THOUGHTS ON HIS PASSING. OH, TENA KOE, JACK. MOE MAI RA E TE RANGATIRA. I'VE SAT IN ON MANY... ADDRESSES THAT MOANA JACKSON HAS GIVEN OVER THE YEARS, RIGHT FROM WHEN I WAS A YOUNG UNIVERSITY STUDENT MANY, MANY YEARS AGO. AND HE'S ALWAYS HAD ME IN AWE OF HIS FORESIGHT, HIS VISION, HIS STRENGTH OF CHARACTER AND HIS COURAGE. AND HE HAS LEFT A LEGACY FOR OUR COUNTRY, FOR ALL NEW ZEALANDERS, AND ESPECIALLY FOR OUR MOKOPUNA I THINK THAT WE WILL CHERISH AND WILL LOOK BACK ON AND BE EXTREMELY GRATEFUL. SO MY HEART GOES OUT TO HIS WHANAU AT THIS TIME. HEI AKUANEI. STICK AROUND! Q+A WILL BE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU. THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM.