Nau mai. Welcome to Newshub Nation. On the show today ` - our special report into Oranga Tamariki care homes. Will they close? Minister Kelvin Davis fronts live. - Simon Henry is nowhere to be seen, but his 'Eurasian fluff' insults are reverberating among New Zealand investors. We speak to the first company to put DGL on its exclusion list. - And with COVID cases hovering at 7000 to 8000 a day, we ask Chris Hipkins for the next phase of the government's plan. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - Ata marie. First up this morning ` a series of reports from the Children's Commissioner show dangerous problems at children's homes run by Oranga Tamariki. - The care and protection residences are for tamariki with nowhere else to go. - Inspections last year revealed high risks of suicide and tamariki, children, in danger from each other and from staff. Senior reporter Conor Whitten has more. - They house the country's most vulnerable children ` Kiwi kids with no place to call home. - The mokopuna that go there have high and complex needs, and it's a last resort. - Oranga Tamariki care and protection residences house young people with no other options, who can't live with whanau or in foster care. Facilities like Epuni in Lower Hutt are supposed to offer them support and stability. But reports from the office of the Children's Commissioner reveals some facilities risked doing more harm. - The concerns were serious. They related to safety, not just of the mokopuna there, but also the staff. - An unannounced inspection in May last year found urgent problems at Epuni ` children at risk of harming themselves and each other. Mental health needs going unmet. A series of reports released to Newshub Nation reveal new detail about the problems, saying young people felt unsafe at Epuni, with staff unable to protect them from assault. Suicide attempts and self-harm had never been so serious ` so bad, one staff member described their daily goal as being no deaths on their shift. - No mokopuna at Epuni should be feeling that way. - And this was a follow-up visit. The residents had been warned by the Children's Commissioner about many issues only months before. Instead of improving, they became worse. - We've got to get it 100% right. And it's clear from that report that we haven't got to 100% right. So we've had to make a lot of changes, Conor, to address that. - An inspection of another facility in Christchurch revealed further problems there. Te Oranga was shut down in July after video was leaked to Newsroom showing children being tackled and placed in a headlock. The report reveals before the incident, staff raised concerns with Oranga Tamariki about how unsafe the environment was and the closure of the residents was poorly managed. The report found the announcement went badly and was traumatising for mokopuna and staff. - That video was a surprise, and we had to move very quickly to be confident that tamariki were safe in that residence. - The facility's now set to reopen again. - I'm very confident that since that most recent report, things have improved significantly. - As Children's Commissioner, I will be making sure those changes are made, and I'm confident in my discussions with Oranga Tamariki that they are very much of the same view. - In the long run, both the Children's Commissioner and Oranga Tamariki want the residences closed. - It's not where we want to be. It's not our destination. We very much want to have smaller, more home-like capability in the community. - I would like to see them close. I would like to see us not need to have care and protection residences. And if we really refocus, reframe, rethink about how we do things, I think that's possible. But in the meantime, where are these mokopuna going to go? - I'm joined now by Children's Minister Kelvin Davis. He's also in charge of Oranga Tamariki. E te minita, tena koe. Thank you for joining us. - Morena, Oriini. - Let's start with that patai there by the Children's Commissioner. If key residences are closed, where will the tamariki go? - Yeah, first of all, I want to make it clear that there is no long term future for that model of care. I agree. I believe that these residences need to be closed, but it isn't a simple matter of just closing. As we've heard, these young people have extreme needs. They've had lives full of trauma, abuse and mental health issues. So it's not just a matter of shutting things down and believing that anybody anywhere in the community is able to care for them. So we have to really make sure the transition meets the needs of those young people. - We're a year out from the election, Minister. Why is it taking so long? - This isn't an election issue. This is a safety of these young people issue. We have to make sure that we do things right and that the transition is well thought out, because like I say, just not anybody and not anywhere can cater for the needs of these young people. - OK. So you agree that they should be closed down. Do you have a timeframe? When can we expect that to happen? - It's got to be done properly. And it will take as long as it needs to take to make sure that we are able to` - Another three years? Five years? - Well, I would hope not. But, you know, the facilities that these young people need, and they spoke about more homely, smaller areas. Like, you can't just put them in a Keith Hay home out in the community. They've got to be purposely built. - What would they look like? Tell us a bit more about what that sort of infrastructure would look like ` post-care residences. Are we talking about homes ` building new ones? - Well, they've got to be more homely rather than institutional, but they still have to have appropriate security measures. They also need recreational facilities. So, you know, there are issues around the planning and consenting and the design. So it does take time, but we have to make sure that we do it right. These children deserve the best. But also there's another group of people too, who I believe that Oranga Tamariki haven't looked after as well as we should have. - Who are they? - And it's the staff of these facilities that I don't think that they've had the support, the supervision or the ongoing training that they really need in order to look after the needs of these young people. As we've seen in the report that these children` these young people are hurting themselves and others. And so the staff also need to be supported in the most appropriate way. - How many children and staff would be accommodated under this` in this new direction that you're pushing towards? - Well, at the moment, across the remaining residences, there are about 20 young people. So, you know, we would like to have the residences cater for maybe four young people at a time. So we need, you know, at least half a dozen. But, again, it all takes time. The process, the transition takes time. And we've got to do it right so that the young people don't experience what we've heard they've experienced in the past. - You speak of time. Do you have that time? Is time on your side? - Well, this is about the young people. It's not about the time that I have. I would hate to rush something that in years to come is found to be an inappropriate place for the young people to be in and an appropriate model of care. So it is important that the Minister for Children gets this right. - Minister, the Te Oranga facility in Otautahi Christchurch, it was shut down in July last year after video of tamariki being allegedly assaulted was leaked. Why are there now plans to reopen it? - Well, I hope it doesn't come to that, because we want to move away from that model of care. The decision was made by the CE at the time to close it. It was a fast decision, but the process of moving those young people out of there actually took some time. In fact, it was, you know` every couple of months we're asking for 'what's the update?' Because it's just not easy to find somewhere to house the young people with the needs that they have. So that was taken` That took some time to actually find the appropriate place for these young people. - So why is it being reopened? - Well, like I say, I hope it doesn't come to that. But we are engaging with iwi as to how these residences might be used in the future. Like I say, the model of care would be different, even if the same place is used for maybe different young people. So, you know, there's still` - So there's no confirmation. Can you confirm today that they will be reopened? Te Oranga will be reopened or won't? - If it is to be reopened, it will be using a different model of care. And hopefully I would like to bring in more of the community and iwi to have a say in how they think it could be more appropriately used. - An overhaul of Oranga Tamariki is on the cards. It's happening. It's in process. In the process. You've said you expect a plan to be set up within` well, to be divulged or in front of you in three to five months' time, another plan? - No, no. We have the plan. The future direction plan is in place. It is being worked through. It's three to five years before it is fully implemented. So there is a lot of work going on. We have identified four communities where we will pilot the devolving of resources in decision-making. I firmly believe that communities have the answers for how to look after our young people Within three or so months I would hope to those pilots who have been enacted and that we're looking to spread a similar model across other parts of the country based on the, you know, sort of the feedback from the from the pilots. - Mm. Malachi Subecz, a 5-year-old boy killed by his caregiver just six months ago. Oranga Tamariki was involved. You've been briefed. What did they tell you? - Yeah, well, first of all, and this is after the fact, but I do want to say that my heart goes out to Malachi, to his mother, to his family, the way he was treated. No child, no person should ever be treated like that. I have been briefed by Oranga Tamariki. This is a complicated case that involves more than one agency, but it does deserve a deeper look. And Oranga Tamariki have asked The Chief Social Worker to do a practise investigation. And that practise investigation will have independent oversight. - Ka pai. - But, you know, it's too soon for me to jump to conclusions. But if the practise has not been good enough, then I expect those agencies, and I don't care who they are, and I'm sure my ministerial colleagues will agree with me that those agencies will be expected to change what they've done. - Can we expect heads to roll for it? Well, we have to wait for the Chief Social Worker's investigation to be completed. and like I said, I'm not going to jump to any conclusions. It is a complicated case and it involves a number of agencies. - The thing is, Minister, his mum was in prison and the wider whanau, his wider whanau contacted Oranga Tamariki worried that his carer was abusing him. Why didn't Oranga Tamariki save this boy's life? Yeah, and that's what the Chief Social Worker is going to look at, to see if Oranga Tamariki should have done and other agencies should have done more. And like I say, it's a bit early for me to jump to conclusions. But, you know, this is why I became the Minister for Children ` to stop this sort of behaviour going on. You know, we have a terrible record as a country in looking after some of our young people, and we've got to stop it, and you know, there is no magic bullet. But look, I take the point of one of the providers in Tauranga community who said it's easy to point the bone at Oranga Tamariki, but this happened in their community. It happened by a person that this provider knew since she was a young woman and yet they didn't know. And it does take all of us, government agencies and communities working together to stamp this out. - There's also the support for the whanau, for the carers as well. So we're not just talking about the safety and the well-being of the tamaiti, we're talking also about the extended whanau to raise these tamariki. My last question, Minister, there's a gap in our system. When a parent goes to prison, no one checks on who will look after the tamaiti, the children, the child ` not courts, not Oranga Tamariki. Is that OK with you? - No. No, it's not. We've got to make sure that we plug these gaps. And like I say, this is why I became the Minister For Children, because I want to plug these gaps to make sure that our children are safe, that they are loved and cared for and looked after. - Tena koe, Minita. Thank you so much for joining us on the programme this morning. - Kia ora, nga mihi. - If you've got a news tip, get in touch. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. E whai ake nei, you might be over COVID, but it's not over you. I sit down with COVID response minister Chris Hipkins. Plus, Simon 'Eurasian Fluff' Henry isn't returning calls, but Rhiannon McKinnon is. She's the CEO of the first investment company to add DGL to its exclusion list, with us after the break. about entrepreneur Nadia Lim have caused ructions in investment circles. - The Shareholders Association labelled his comments 'An insult to investors and investment managers.' Kiwi Wealth put his company DGL on its exclusion list, citing racism, misogyny and other governance red flags. So I asked CEO Rhiannon McKinnon what she thought of the phrase 'Eurasian fluff.' - For me, it's extremely offensive. I think it's both misogynistic and it's racist and it really demeaning of a really successful businesswoman on the on the basis of some pretty awful biases which I wouldn't expect to see in 2022. - Can you exclude a company from possible investment because of that type of terminology? Or was there more to it? - I think the issue is really about` partly about that governance as well. So Simon's CEO, he's the major shareholder. He's also on the board. And so I think if we see comments like that from a CEO, I think that's very disturbing in itself. It's disturbing to think he thinks them privately, but I suppose that's his own business. To put them on the public record deliberately, I think, shows sort of a lack of judgement. And then the concerns really are there will be no potential change, because really he is the controller of that company. So I don't see how we're going to sort of effect positive change. So that sort of led us to that decision. - Right. So he would have to go for you to be interested in that company? I think` Put simply, I think if it was just an apology, it's hard to believe that might really run true. So I think there would have to be some pretty major changes in the governance and the shareholding, which I don't think is likely to happen in the short-term. - But DGL is a successful company, so are you denying your potential investors some good returns? - We potentially are denying investors good returns, but I think we also need to put our capital in in the right places. I mean, we're not allowed as part of default provide to put our money into fossil fuels, for example. You know, oil prices have gone up recently. And so a lot of those companies related have gone up. But we don't believe that our capital should be supporting those companies. - Milford Asset Management is a big KiwiSaver fund and it says it's going to try and drive change within DGL Is that a valid stance? - I think it's totally valid stance. So, you know, in the ordinary course of business, what we do if we already own a company is to try and engage with the board and try and effect change. As I said, I think we have a likelihood of effecting change in the case of DGL is quite small, but they are an existing shareholder. Had we been an existing shareholder, we would have got on the phone to the board and sort of asked for some feedback and to push for change actively. So a very valid way of going about things. - But you've made your stance very public. That's unusual within the corporate world, isn't it? - I think we were reacting to the circumstances and making sure that these sorts of behaviour will not be tolerated by people who are really kind of looking after public money. - In your experience of the New Zealand corporate world, is this a common kind of event? - Not in my experience, no. Not comments of that nature so blatant, I think is most unusual. I think most people I've spoken to really surprised whether a male or female, they're really surprised that someone would say these things and go on the record quite specifically. - Right. And in terms of response from your investors over this decision, what has it been? It's been broadly very positive. I've been contacted by people I don't even know, sort of saying thank you for making a stand. - You're currently researching the KiwiSaver gap, the gap in equity or savings between men and women. What are you finding there? - The gap is over 20% between men and women. - So isn't it doubly important that we have successful female entrepreneurs like Nadia Lim? - Absolutely. - And so what's happening this week is an outrage, in your view? - I think, yes. I think it is an outrage in my view that someone would say something so derogatory about a very successful business woman. - Rhiannon McKinnon there. E haere ake nei, coming up, our tribute to departing long-time MP and former National Leader Simon Bridges. - Plus, she wants to be Social Development Minister. Can she convince you she would be better than Carmel Sepuloni? Louise Upston gets five minutes to try. - And cases are sitting around 7000 to 8000 a day, so I asked the Minister for COVID Response if these levels of illness and death are what the government expected. - The case numbers have been trending down, but we've seen in the last two weeks or so that maybe things are starting to plateau a little bit. That's not to say that the overall trajectory is not still getting down, but, certainly, the decline in case numbers has slowed in the last couple of weeks. - Yeah. I mean, Christchurch Hospital, though, has said it's got more cases now than at the peak. Does that concern you? - It's very variable around the country. Christchurch does, for some reason, seem to have been hit hardest a bit later in the outbreak compared to some of the other DHBs. So that's something, certainly, to keep an eye on. But, yeah, there's no question that they do seem to be under quite a lot of pressure there. - Yeah. Are you expecting the trajectory to go up or to go down? I mean, because the rolling average seems to have ticked up a little bit in the last week. - All of the forecasting is suggesting that we should still, you know, trend down based on the current outbreak. What we don't know yet is, you know, reinfection rates and how we` generally, the view is that you'll get at least three months before you get a round of reinfection. - Yeah. - But the international evidence on that is still emerging as well. - Yeah. Just on the reinfection rates, there seems to be some opinion out there that it's not three months any more and that, in fact, you could get reinfected a lot earlier. - There's certainly anecdotal reports of people being reinfected earlier than three months, and so we'll certainly be keeping a very close eye on that. - Are you actually tracking that? - Yeah, but I haven't seen any` there's no data yet, you know, confirmed data yet has come through about rates of reinfection. - Do you think people are a bit more lax about the fact that, you know, 'If I get COVID, I'm OK for three months,' and so they're out and about, and they're not mask wearing, and that's causing, perhaps, this long tail of higher case numbers? - I think people are still being quite sensible in their approach to COVID-19. That's not to say that there aren't some people who are not being careful. But we're still seeing good levels of compliance with mask use and various other restrictions that are in place. - You're happy with how people are responding? - Overall, yes. You know, we're seeing examples of people wearing masks when they don't have to, because doing that is an extra protection for other people, and that's certainly a very welcome development. - A lot of rules have been relaxed recently ` moved to orange, reduced masking, opening borders ` I mean, but the death rate's about 20; did you relax too soon? - No, not at all. I mean, if you look at our excess mortality, so how many people would we normally expect to see die in a year and how far above that are we now, we are above that, but we're monitoring that closely, and it's not a huge leap above that. Now, it is above. There's no question about that. COVID-19 is having an impact. But, you know, we're keeping a close eye on that. - So the level that we are above, the normal rate of death, is acceptable for the settings that we are in. - I don't think I would ever say that, you know, COVID-19-related deaths are acceptable, but there is a reality about the fact that, as we move from an environment where we were completely eliminating the virus and not having it circulating at all to one where we are seeing COVID-19 circulated in the community, it was going to have an impact, and it is having an impact. - Yeah. I mean, you talked about, you know, the long-term trajectory ` it's still going to be going down ` do you have any prediction as to when these death rates are going to come down? - That's very hard to model. We know that our rates of hospitalisation are starting to trend down. That's a good sign. That does indicate that, you know, we could see a decline in mortality rates some time after that. But then, you know, there's still a lot of water to flow under the bridge yet. We've still got winter coming, for example. We've still got the potential for another peak as we head into winter. And so, you know, the pandemic is far from over. - Epidemiologists like Michael Baker are saying, 'Look, we need to do something to dampen down these infection rates as we head into winter.' Is there any chance that you would change settings? - We are doing a lot to dampen down infection rates now. I mean, we still have some rules around mask use. You know, we are still within the COVID-19 Protection Framework. We've got people clamouring on one side, saying, 'Just get rid of all of the rules; let's just get on with life,' and then people on the other side saying, actually, we need a much firmer approach. I think we have got the balance about right here. - But there's no plan to, say, increases settings, seeing as we are` got this rolling average of 7000 or 8000 cases a day? - We're absolutely monitoring it on a daily basis. I get a daily update on all of the statistics around COVID-19. We keep that under close watch. And we do have to be prepared for the fact that, as we head into winter, we could see a resurgence, and we could see that we have to take additional measures in response to that. - Is that being predicted? - It's a possibility, and a strong possibility, I think it would be fair to say. - A strong possibility. - Yeah, that we will see another increase in case numbers as we head into winter. - Right. And are you predicting the current variant or are you predicting a different variant? - Well, that, of course, is the big unknown. - All right. At the moment, school kids under 12, only 23% of them are double-dosed, and yet` Like, schools last term, 51% of them still had COVID cases. Do you think that you've relaxed mask wearing in schools too soon? - We've left it over to the schools to make decisions about mask wearing, so those schools where they think it's still justified are still adding, you know, a layer of protection that they need. They can continue to have a mask-wearing policy, and many schools are doing that, and they have our full support if they make that decision. Schools are in the best position to be able to determine what they think is the need within their community. - So school has just come back under orange, borders open, no mask wearing ` are you concerned that there could be an uptick there? - I've certainly been monitoring that very closely. - The third booster is probably waning; the immunity is waning from the third booster now. So what about a fourth booster? - I think it's likely that we'll see the need for ongoing protection against COVID-19, particularly for more vulnerable communities. So we're working our way through that at the moment. It might not be that we have a fourth dose for everybody, but it might be that it's available, and I think it's likely that it'll be available for our elderly population, those who are immunocompromised and so on. We're working through that now. We're, obviously, following the international evidence around that very closely. Not many countries have been doing it yet, so the evidence there is still quite light, but we're looking at it pretty close. - But isn't there urgency now? Because that booster` third-booster immunity is waning, especially for people at the front line ` health and border workers ` they got theirs back in December. - Oh, look, we do view it as a matter of urgency. - Right. So can you give us an idea of when you will make a decision about that? - Look, it really depends on what the evidence starts to tell us, and the evidence at this point is it's still quite light. - There's one other thing that you're adjusting, and that's the current vaccine passes ` they expire on June the 1st, don't they? Are you developing a new system? - Yeah, we said when we removed the compulsory nature of vaccine passes that we would issue new vaccine passes on a voluntary basis. - But why do that if they're not required domestically? - Well, for those who want to be able to prove that they have been boosted, for example, they'll be able to download a new vaccine pass that shows that. It does mean that it's there in reserve in the event that we needed to use a system like that again in the future. Now, there are no current plans to do that. - Will you have to have a booster to get this new pass? Because, currently, it's a double-dose pass. - We've got to work through that to make sure that that we're not unfairly treating people or penalising people who can't get there. - Who can't get a booster. So it's unlikely that you will have to have a booster to get this new vaccine pass. - If you're an adult, over the age of 18 years, yes, likely that you'll need to be boosted in order to get the pass. But we have to have a system in place where, if you can't get a booster, that there's another way that we can make sure that you're properly supported. - OK. So we've opened up to the world almost totally. But airlines and airports really want you to drop the requirement for pre-departure negative tests for travellers to New Zealand. Will you do that? - We're looking at the evidence pretty closely on that. We're looking at what the rest of the world is doing around that. It is something, again, that's under active review. We haven't made a decision on that. - But the rest of the world, countries like Australia, UK, Canada, they've all dropped them, and we're competing with them for tourists, aren't we? - Yeah, so it is something that we're looking very, very closely at. And, yes, what the rest of the world are doing is having a bearing on our decision-making. - OK. Soon? - Within the next few weeks, I think we'll be able to give people some more certainty around what's going to happen there. - Just finally, on the COVID fund, so the Auditor-General is concerned you haven't been transparent enough with $74 billion of the fund. Do you accept that Labour has been spending it on some pet projects that are not COVID related? That's what the opposition alleges. - No, I don't. I mean, it's a COVID-19 Response and Recovery Fund. The vast bulk of that spending has gone into response, so doing things like the wage subsidy, making sure that we're properly supporting the health system, rolling out the biggest vaccination movement we ever have. - Granted, yeah. But what about projects` - It's also about recovery. We didn't want the economy to collapse whilst we're going through this. So, yes, we've spent it on` We've had shovel-ready projects that we have been supporting. We've upgraded school classrooms` - Jobs for Nature ` I mean, is that a COVID recovery fund? - They keep people in work. They make sure that the economy keeps moving. - Electric ferries. - These are things that are going to leave a legacy for New Zealand from the COVID-19 response. - Cameras on fishing boats. Cameras on fishing boats. Do they qualify as COVID response? - Oh, look, like I said, it's a response and recovery fund. So it's also about making sure the economy bounces back from the challenge of COVID-19. This has been one of the biggest global economic shocks that we've experienced in any of our lifetimes. - So the government's quite proud of its COVID response ` agreed? - Oh, absolutely. Look, I think we've had one of the best economic recoveries in the world. We've had one of the lowest mortality and case number rates in the world. - Sure. So why are you suffering in the polls then? - I think it's been a bumpy start to the year. There's no question that the cost of living is having a massive impact. That's an international phenomena. - I mean, the shine is coming off Jacinda Ardern finally. So if she says, 'OK, I'm going to pack it in,' who's going to be leader? Is it going to be you or is it going to be Grant Robertson? - Oh, look, I have complete confidence in Jacinda. I think she's doing an outstanding job, and she's led New Zealand through a really, really challenging time. I know that she's intending to stick around for the next election. - You know that for sure? - Absolutely. And I fully intend to support her in that endeavour. - So you're ruling out ever wanting to be a leader. - Oh, absolutely. Look, it's` Jacinda Ardern is the Prime Minister of New Zealand. I think that she's the right person to be the Prime Minister of New Zealand, and I'm absolutely confident that we can, you know, the election` We're only halfway through the parliamentary term; there's still a lot of water to flow under the bridge, and we'll be going into the next campaign to win it. - Chris Hipkins, thank you very much. - Thank you. - Taro ake, up next ` there was no post-recess glow in parliament this week. Insults flew thick and fast in the house. - Plus ` Louise Upston gets five minutes to convince you she'd make a better Social Development Minister then Carmel Sepuloni. It was curtains former National leader Simon Bridges in Parliament this week. His valedictory speech ended a 14 year political career with more than a bit of texture. (JACINDA AND SIMON SPEAKING OVER EACH OTHER) - ...Jacinda B- J- (LAUGHS) Simon Bridges and Labour MP Jacinda Ardern. Excuse me. - There'd never be a Jacinda Bridges. - Bridges is clearly up to the challenge and isn't afraid of taking on Peters. - I'm here full-time trying to earn the support of the people of Tauranga. ...banned oil and gas exploration as well as mining on conservation land. - Whatever that industry called 'moining' is, I'm having difficulty trying to understand it. Jami-Lee Ross has had a gross breach of trust. - Simon Bridges as a corrupt politician. - $6000 slushy machines. Slushies! Well, Grant Robertson drank them all. ...10. I love how your hair shines. - Thank you. See, I don't get serenaded by nearly enough MPs. - I am husband to Natalie and a dad to Emlyn, Harry and Jemima. And I've enjoyed the people and the drama, those who've been grateful, even those who've been hateful, at least they felt something about me and politics. Keep firm hold of the baton, I now let go from my grip, and run boldly and hard. - All right, time now for our panel. I'm joined now by former Labour Party president Mike Williams, former National Party staffer and director of Franks Ogilvie Law, Brigitte Morten, and Victoria University politics lecturer Bryce Edwards. Thank you so much, guys, for coming into the studio. It's fabulous to have you here. Mike, I'm going to ask you first, are you going to miss Simon Bridges. - Yes, I am. But I speak as a rusted-on Labour Party supporter. We're pleased to see him go. (LAUGHTER) - My view is he was an extremely effective politician. I met him at a Rutherford College prize-giving over a decade ago. I found him warm, intelligent and gracious. And I remember saying to a colleague, he's got Prime Minister all over him. Wow. - I think that luck comes into a great deal into politics, luck and timing, and he had neither. He encountered one of the worst betrayals in politics in Jami-Lee Ross, and then when he'd come back, look, inevitable, Judith Collins brought up some ancient myths spoke of him. I understand exactly why he's gone, and I wish him well. - Yeah. - But it is a great loss to the National Party. - Brigitte, is it a great loss to the National Party? - Yeah, absolutely. And I think National has had a really strong tradition of strong electorate MPs, and Bridges really embodied that you know, Tauranga is my hometown. I can see, you know, the investment he, you know, personally delivered there and really advocating throughout his 14 years for that city, and you can see that city going leaps and bounds ahead. - And as a minister, Bryce, I mean, was he effective? Will we be remembered for any major Simon Bridges initiatives? - I don't think so. I mean, his legacy is really one of failure. And, you know, that's sad. That's how politics is. It's tough at the top. - That's a tough call. - He failed. He was the leader of the National party and he was destined, it seemed, to be the next Prime Minister. He lost back in 2020, mainly due to and disunited party and COVID. He then tried to make a comeback this year, failed on that. So, I mean, he's really talented guy. He's probably, I think, probably the best National Party leader of the last four or five. - Including the present? - Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think it's too early, really, to talk about his legacy, because I think he's actually, my sources say he's only going on a sabbatical. He's pulled out politics for maybe five, maybe ten years. He'll be back. He's got unfinished business. - OK. - He'll go away and do something else for a while. His kids grow up. He'll be back. - Here's a premise. Do you think that Simon Bridges would want to be the mayor of Auckland, Brigitte? - I think Simon Bridges' ambition is limitless. I think there's no doubt that, you know, he probably puts everything as a possibility going forward. I think Bryce's, you know, to count all of this as a failure really misses out actually what MPs are there for is actually to serve people. I think, you know, these the outside people think everyone wants to be prime minister when you want to be an MP any differently did. But that completely undermines what he actually delivered for a lot of people, And it's a lot of infrastructure, a lot of individual advocacy. And that's what's important as an MP. - And his leaving, though, delivers a bit of a dilemma for National, doesn't it? They had four candidates down in Tauranga to replace him, all of them white dudes in suits. Mike, is that a problem in terms of diversity? - It is. The National Party desperately need a renewal. One of their` Several of their best and brightest bailed out in the last election or were defeated. They have left with a rump of really untalented people, including Maureen Pugh, who Simon Bridges` - Well, we know what he said, apparently. - OK. Brigitte, would you agree with that sort of rationale? I mean, so that summary of diversity in terms of National at the moment. - I think, of course, they've got a smaller caucus. So having a diversity of experience is always going to be difficult. I completely disagree that there's an untalented rump. You can see the new generation coming through... - What, both of them? (LAUGHTER) - ..at the next election, when, you know, if the polls deliver what they're saying they will at the moment, that course is going to increase, so that means that they're going to bring more and more people in. - Sure. At the moment, Shane Reti and Harete Hipango are the only diverse faces within the party, isn't that right, Bryce? - Yeah, and it's a disaster for National. And it really does show what a dysfunctional organisation National is. - Isn't there Melissa Lee? - Oh, sorry, Melissa Lee, apologies to Melissa Lee as well. Absolutely. And you know, in our time we have a heightened sense of looking at the focus of needing that diversity, and National keep stuffing up. I think it's the party organisation, it's not the caucus. We can't blame the person that's been chosen as the candidate, but it's astonishing. OK. I'm going to leave the talk about it` - Can I make a point though? - Sure. - You know, one thing that Luxon has gotta do is get rid of the president of the party. He's the one` - He doesn't choose who gets rid of the President. It's actually completely the lay-party. - It's not Luxon's` - If Luxon leant on Peter Goodfellow and said to him look, next time we're in office, we'll give you a knighthood. He'd go tomorrow. - All right. - I don't think the National party's that kind of crooked. - OK, I think I'm going to move on to another question of diversity. Let's talk Eurasian fluff. OK? So this week, Simon Henry from DGL made those comments to NBR. He has since apologised, and couriered an apology to Nadia Lim. Brigitte, what do you think would be in that apology? - I think maybe, you know, somewhere in the vicinity of the $70 million that he wiped off his company's valuation. But I mean, just how ridiculous. His poor judgement in making those comments, and then the 9.30pm press release from the company where he'd said he'd apologised, it turns out he's just couriering it. Like everything about this just shows poor judgement from the leadership within this company. - Yeah. - So in terms of this kind of behaviour within the corporate world in New Zealand, is this an outlier, do you think, Bryce, or is it something that is simmering still below the surface? - Well, isn't it interesting just seeing how universal the condemnation has been, and rightly so. Across society, there's no one defending him. And it's actually the business community that's been almost the most vociferous, blacklisting him. - Well, that's right. ` It shows just how much business in New Zealand has changed. - Rhiannon McKinnon right there, she was she's out of the blocks quickly in terms of Kiwi wealth. Absolutely. Business today is kind of socially progressive, anti-racist, anti-sexist. And this episode has been useful for illustrating how society has changed in New Zealand. - There is another, now, Kiwi investment company, KiwiSaver company, Milford Asset Management, which has decided that it's going to work with DGL and try and drive change within that. Is that, like, a valid stance do you think, Mike? Or do you just stand out? - Yeah, I think it is a valid stance, but the point I'd make is that putting aside the misogyny and the racism, which you really shouldn't put aside, this is an act of extreme stupidity. And that's what I would be wondering if I was a board member, how did this man rise to the top? And I would say` - Well, he owns the company. - It was a bit Trump-like, wasn't it? - Absolutely. And I had the conspiracy feeling that maybe he deliberately sunk the value of his company. Maybe he wanted to buy back shares ore something? - I would just warn you, Bryce, that his man is worth lots and lots and lots and lots of money. - Yes. Yes. And I'll point out his name used to be Simon Whimp. He changed his name. - What? - From 'Whimp?' - That is true! - I didn't know that. - That's just a reality. - It's fact. All right. OK. Alright, Let's move on. Just before we finish up, Winston Peters has been very vociferous this week about Trevor Mallard. Bryce, Winston is using Trevor Mallard as a staging point. - Well, he's been handed the staging point to, you know, Mallard has given it to him and this could be the perfect platform for him to fight that by-election in Tauranga. I think he's actually had a chance because of it. - Really? Well, he likes to be able to, you know, blame the establishment for persecuting him. He is actually being persecuted in this case. So, you know` ` Persecuted is a big phrase for - Well, when you get threatened with arrest if you come onto parliament, that's a real clampdown on dissent by an authoritarian Speaker of the House. I mean, Trevor Mallard is really trying to be the worst speaker in living memory, which is quite a hard task. - All right. So it could be a platform for Winston to go back into Tauranga. Do you think that might happen? - Yeah, I think the chances of that are reasonably low. But of course, Winston's going to jump onto this opportunity to get as much airtime as possible. But I think it really shows that Trevor Mallard doesn't have the confidence not only of, you know, the people outside Parliament, but the people inside Parliament. If Labour had confidence in them, they would allow Chris Bishop's motion of no confidence to be debated. But I guarantee that they don't want that to happen because no Labour MP wants to stand up and defend what has happened last week and multiple times. - So what is the feeling like within Labour about Trevor Mallard's behaviour? - Well, I think the general feeling is that he overstepped the mark, that he was really` - I think that's an understatement, but` - He really` It was very upsetting, the trashing of parliament, which` He takes the job of Speaker very seriously and I think he went too far. The trespassing should have been much more nuanced and I don't see Winston walking through the crowd as warranting that. Although Matt King, of course, stood there for hours at a time waving a placard. What happened is the Prime Minister yanked on Trevor's lead and he behaved himself. You won't see that kind of behaviour. And the point I'd make` - (LAUGHS) Is that guarantee? I think we'll see exactly this kind of behaviour again. - I have been looking` - Do you think a duck doesn't change it's feathers? I have been looking at political research for the best part of 40 years and I've never seen anyone change their vote on the basis of who the speaker is. - Right. - So I think they can just let the water go under the pike. - So Mallard stays. - No. - No? - He'll be gone. Look, the same thing that happened to Louisa Wall will happen to him. He will have a brokered departure. Whether it will be this term` - Brokered departure? - Yeah, whether it's Ireland or something. You know, that's I don't know how much trust the Labour Party will in him have as a diplomat. But, you know, that will be what they're looking at. - Right. - We've got an ambassador in Antarctica. - Do you have a quick prediction for Trevor Mallard? Look, I definitely think that this is his last term in parliament, without a doubt. There's no way that they can continue, particularly with falling polls, to carry him on the list. They need to bring the refresh in. But also, there's no doubt that if they do another Louisa Wall there, and give him a brokered deal, that just undermines complete and utter the Prime Minister's judgement here. She shouldn't be using diplomatic posts to deal with her own political issues. - That hasn't been done before, hey? - But that doesn't mean we should do it again. - I'm just going to have to leave it there for time reasons. Thank you so much to our panel, Bryce, Brigitte and Mike. Kia mou tonu mai. Stay with us, we'll be back after the break. where we give MPs just five minutes to sell you on their ideas. In the hot seat this week ` National Social Development and Child Poverty Reduction spokesperson Louise Upston. Kairipoata Finn Hogan started by asking what her first action would be as minister to support our most vulnerable. - A lot of it is a clear focus on what the barriers are for that family. What we've seen, unfortunately at the moment is vast amounts of money being poured into employment initiatives that aren't actually doing the job. So if we're serious about lifting children out of poverty, we need to ensure that there are more households with a parent in work. - Isn't the easiest and most direct way to lift children out of poverty by raising benefit rates for families with children? - It might be for today and tomorrow. But, actually, I'm more interested in the life outcomes of that child. So what we do know is children who are raised in benefit-dependent homes have worse outcomes in health, in education and in income. So, at the moment in New Zealand, one in five of our children are being raised in a benefit-dependent home. - Very specifically, what are the pathways out of benefit dependency, as you say, and into work? - So, what we need to do is have local organisations who are` many of them are working with these families on the ground and actually have very focused, individual plans for that family. What are the barriers they are facing to employment? Have a plan, address their needs very practically. So, for some of them, it's childcare; for some, it's driver's licence; for others, it might be literacy or numeracy issues. - Would you, for example, bring back sanctions that have been scrapped? Would you take those punitive measures? - I'm looking at the sanctions regime. Part of my work over the next six to 12 months will be looking at are they fit for purpose, are they fit for the future? And particularly the ones that I'm focused on, the sanctions where there are children in those households, and looking at are there other ways other than financial sanctions where there's still a consequence ` so if someone who doesn't meet their responsibilities. But they're not financial. - National have been hammering the government over the cost of living crisis. But you would acknowledge that the cost of living crisis is disproportionately felt by beneficiaries right? - Yeah, which is why we've got to focus on supporting people off welfare into work. Now, right now, we have unemployment at 3.2% ` the lowest for, like, 30 years. There is no better time than now, when there are businesses everywhere crying out for staff, to support people into work. There's no better opportunity. - But it's not so simple as every beneficiary that wants a job can have a job, because not every job is suitable for everyone in every circumstance. - But these are stories everywhere. There are supermarkets who can't fill their businesses. There are hospitality businesses. One in my electorate that I think of straight away has to close or reduce their hours because they can't get staff. There is no better time to get people from welfare into work than now. - The point I'm making there, though, is that for the people who are unable to work, for whatever reason it is, and that is a sizeable portion of people through no fault of their own, they are being hammered by rising inflation, and any benefit gains and any benefit raises have been wiped out. Shouldn't benefits be raised for some people to get over the struggle of the cost of living crisis? - But, again, this is short term. So we've got to balance out what is happening today. And part of the equation is, OK, well, the government of the day should be dealing with the cost of living crisis, should be looking at the $6 billion of new spending they are proposing in the budget this year and actually provide assistance` - I'm sorry. I just want to come back to that point. Shouldn't benefits go up for some people? Aren't benefits too low for some Kiwis right now? - They've gone up recently. - That's wiped out by inflation. - Well, and that's, you know` that's part of the challenge. I've said before, it's not easy living on a benefit, you know? I know it's not. - But benefits are too low for some Kiwis right now to have a life. - So what the answer is, is to have much more of a focus immediately with urgency to support those people into work. And that's what the Government's not doing. And I think that's where this Government is cruel. They are definitely not kind, because more people are being stuck on benefits for longer. - More than 500,000 Kiwis owe a debt to MSD, and that's averaging $3400. Would you consider wiping some of that debt to help people get back on their feet? - I think we do have to look at how people are getting into debt with MSD and unpick it a bit. There may be scope to look at some of it, but I think it would be too simplistic just to say that all debts should be wiped. - And, finally, with the recent poll, there's some wind in National's sails. Say you are government in the next election ` is this the portfolio that you're going to be gunning for? - Yeah, absolutely. I'm clear that particularly working with families and children, and we want to ensure that more children have greater lives in New Zealand. - Louise Upston there. Now, our MPs were on fiery form in parliament this week, with Labour on the offensive after their tumble in the polls. - So here's Finn again with the week that was in Wellington. - Well, the MPs are back from a restful recess and are obviously ready for respectful debate. - Well, have a listen, Seymour, and you might learn something. You're so stupid, but... (EXCLAIMING) - OK, Maybe not Willie Jackson, but surely Deputy PM Grant Robertson will be keeping it classy. - Here was me thinking that the problem with the National caucus was that it has just two Maori members. But, no, according to Mr Luxon, it's just they're all a bit thick. That's all it is. - Yes, there were shots firing all over the house this week, and Trevor Mallard was having even more trouble than usual keeping everything in... - Order. - Probably didn't help that the speaker's sports metaphors weren't exactly a home run with the home crowd. - A bit of discretion around donkey drops ` when they come from the Opposition, I think there's more room... Order. - Mr Speaker, I wonder if you could just humour us all and explain what you mean by 'donkey drops'. I asked about a` - Oh, sorry, donkey drop's an old-fashioned expression about sometimes in cricket, like a lollipop, an easy throw, something which can be dispatched to the boundary. - So perhaps more pot shots than politics in the chamber this week. Maybe next time they'll think more about... - ...the degree, the volume and the` frankly, the lack of wittiness of their interjections. - All right. We're back with our panel, Mike Williams, Brigitte Morten and Bryce Edwards. The phrase 'donkey drops' ` what does that mean to you, Bryce? - I thought it was, like, Winston Peters' favourite word 'bulldust', which he uses a lot, but no, completely different. - I mean, it confused me. I mean, is it in the Standing Orders, donkey drops (?) - I believe it's not. And it's also just questioning to me why the Speaker's making rulings on the quality of interjections. I'm not sure that's quite what his role is. - He did catch us all by surprise there. Let's move on to something` - Hang on. - Oh, sorry, you want` Yes, Mike ` donkey drops. - I'm the only one who knew what it was. - Oh, OK. - Look, it's a mildly abusive cricketing term. - Right. - It's a ball that is easily hit by a batsman, and it was actually an appropriate metaphor for Mallard to use under those circumstances. - But probably not to his audience that doesn't understand it. - No, that's true. - All right. Let's move on to Kelvin Davis there. So, like, some serious problems, obviously, with the residences. He wants them to be closed, but it's a process. How is he going, do you think, Mike, with that quite tricky portfolio? - I thought he had a very good grasp of the detail of what was going on. I was surprised just how few of these children there are. I think he said 20. - 20, yeah. - And I would look at something called 'specialing' under those circumstances, which is really putting one person in charge of that person 24-7. But I was impressed by his knowledge of the portfolio and where it was going. - Hmm. Bryce, you mentioned before that when Kelvin Davis came into that portfolio, he was going to be a bulldozer. Have we seen that? - Not exactly at all. No, no, no. He's been quite a competent minister, looking to do some quite, I don't know, slow reforms, I think. And I think he's judged that correctly, you know, that he's depoliticised what is a really fraught area that could explode easily, and he's managed to get consensus, slowly moving things forward. I mean, the whole area is one where OT has got a thankless task. They're blamed for so much that is often beyond their control. It's a bit like blaming St John's ambulances for, you know, what they're picking up often. And of course, a lot of this area is an outcome of the deprivation, inequality, poverty that's happened since the 1980s. We're about to have a lot more of that, and so we do need this portfolio sorted out. - All right, look, I'm going to move on to, just briefly, on COVID; Chris Hipkins there seems to be quite proud, Brigitte, of their response and also the transparency around $74 billion worth of spend ` justified? - No, not at all. And I think what the most concerning thing to me about that interview was that we've got this continued rhetoric of 'we'll make decisions when we make decisions', and we've seen a pattern in the COVID response and them making late decisions, particularly when it comes to new vaccines, restrictions, And I just look at, you know, some of the things he was saying ` he's clearly signalling that we could go further into restrictions, but lots of those frameworks around mandates and workforce guidelines, all of those things have actually been dismantled in the last month and are very questionable legally, and it doesn't seem like they're doing anything to make sure that, when we do get that next wave, that we're prepared for it. - Right. OK. Would you agree with that? - I wouldn't agree with that at all. I think we're very prepared. 10 days ago, I tested positive for COVID. I entered it in` - Glad to hear it was 10 days ago. - LAUGHS: Yeah. - I entered it in the Health Department website. I almost immediately got a call from a health official who gave me all the details ` stay hydrated, rest, et cetera, et cetera ` and prescribed the Paxlovid drug, which have arrived within hours. I was then followed up again and again. - But we only just got that drug in the country, whereas other countries got it much earlier, so the people who got COVID before you missed out. - The point is, in my experience, which is now a week old, we are very well prepared. - Right, OK. Well, will we be prepared in the future? I mean, are you confident about that, Bryce, from what Chris Hipkins was saying? - No, I don't think so. And it's a hard task he's had. They've got to take, you know, both the plaudits and the criticisms for things they've got wrong. I don't know. He was not looking humble enough, I think, especially when it came to things like the Auditor-General's report, which really was quite a stinging one, saying we've got to look carefully at the $72 billion that are being spent for high quality, for integrity. - Yeah. So a lot of that was wage subsidy, a lot of that was MSD response and those kinds of things. But there were some other issues around the side. - Oh, absolutely. There's been a lot of issues around the side. - (LAUGHS) - And they should be things we're debating, and they've been too easily brushed aside. So, I don't know, we're going to be, you know, with this debt for a long time. - We are. OK. - It needs more debate. - Right ` needs more debate. One last bit of debate ` the polls at the moment, Mike, not look that hot for Labour, are they? They're going for National. - Well, let me tell you, in my experience, a bad poll does miracles for a party that gets a bad poll. And I think you will see them react very strongly. I think, at the moment, there's exhaustion with COVID. There's a honeymoon period being granted to Luxon. You've got some big things happening, like water reform and health reform. - Yeah. - But my` They will bounce back. - They will bounce back. What do you think about that, Brigitte? - I think there was two clear signals that Labour in trouble. You look at those headlines about what the party support is, but actually, underlying it, those questions about cost of living, 77% of people not thinking they're doing enough, coupled with the fact that almost half of people didn't believe Jacinda Ardern should run again. And she was their popularity ticket. She has been the person that has delivered all these hard messages over the last couple of years. Those two things are major obstacles for them being re-elected. - Last word, Bryce. - I'm surprised that either party are doing so well in the polls. - Oh, are you? (LAUGHTER) - Neither Labour and National have done a lot to get people's confidence over the last four years, apart from the COVID response. Otherwise, this government's going backwards on all those major reforms they promised. National don't have any great alternatives. - Right. Well, they've got a bit over a year, year and a half to get it together. All right, Bryce Edwards, Brigitte Morten and Mike Williams, thanks so much for your time. - Pleasure. - And that is all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching. Nau mihi nui. And we'll see you again next weekend. Captions by Julie Taylor, John Gibbs and Sophie Pearce. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - This show was brought to you by the New Zealand Public Interest Journalism Fund.