- And I'm Simon Shepherd. Nau mai, and welcome to Newshub Nation. On the show today ` pulling the anti-mandate vote; senior report Conor Whitten's special report on the minor parties courting Tauranga. - Former Nation reporter Mike Wesley-Smith on his years-long investigation into Alan Hall's murder conviction and what should happen next. - But first, here we go, the top candidates vying for the seat of Tauranga clash in our feisty Thursday by-election debate. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 Tena koutou katoa. I'm Simon Shepherd, and nau mai, welcome to Newshub Nation's Tauranga by-election debate. With me are the three leading candidates ` National's Sam Uffindell, Labour's Jan Tinetti and ACT's Cameron Luxton. Thank you so much for your time. OK, let's get straight into it, and let's start with some numbers. Here is our poll from last week in the battle for Tauranga. And if you look at that, Jan Tinetti, I'm going to start with you ` 21.9%. That's down from 38.5% at the election. Tell me why you are still campaigning. - Well, I'm still campaigning because I'm out there getting our message across, getting the message of the wonderful things that this government has been doing and is doing, particularly for Tauranga. I mean, I would say that, on those numbers, Simon, that that's not unexpected in a by-election. It is hard to motivate the vote and to get our vote out, so I'm not taking anything by that, and I will be campaigning right up until the last minute. - I would point out, though, that Labour's party vote dropped by 14% in that poll, so what is the message that Tauranga voters are sending your government? - You know, I think, at the moment, that that would not be unexpected with how people are feeling post-COVID or in the middle of COVID for some people. People are feeling the pinch at the moment with the global pressures on the cost of living and also with how they're feeling tired from the COVID experience. - Right. Are they tired of your government? - Tired of the COVID experience, Simon. - OK. Let's move on to Sam Uffindell. 56.9%. That's massive, but is Tauranga really just a golden National Party ticket to parliament, no matter who gets selected? - No, I don't see it that way. Look, the only poll that matters is the one on the 18th. And that's why I'm working every day, all day, and will be right up through until the end of the campaigning period. - So you're not resting on your poll laurels? - Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I've been out there in the pouring rain, knocking on doors. I'm working as hard as I can. - OK. Let's talk to you, Cameron Luxton. 7.4% in that poll. But you're running because ACT commissioned a poll which found that you were the most effective opposition party, right? - Well, that's not the only reason I'm running. I'm running because I think Tauranga needs a chance to send a message to this government. - Yeah, sure. But on these numbers, 7.4%, I mean, if you don't win it, are you going to ask for your money back on that poll? - Oh, hell no. I mean, we've doubled my polling since the 2020 election. So I'm very happy with the direction of travel, and I think it's showing that the people of Tauranga are sick of the representation that we've been subjected to for many decades from both sides of the house. And they're saying that we want to see a real change, and they can see in me, as a builder and a business owner who grew up in Tauranga, that there is someone who will stand up and represent them. And that's why the vote is coming to ACT in this election. - All right, well, let's start to talk issues, and the first one, law and order. And we spoke to some of your prospective constituents on the street. - So my question to the candidates is ` what are you going to do about law and order issues in this country? They've just been let loose. We're letting all our criminals out of our jails. What are you going to do to make people feel safe again? - OK, let's come to you, Sam Uffindell, first. So, concern about law and order. The Bay of Plenty has 1461 gang members, more than anywhere else in the country. That's the Bay of Plenty. You want to issue fines if they cruise en masse through town. Do you really think that gang members are going to pay attention to traffic fines? - Well, they can also have their bikes confiscated for 28 days, and we'll give the police the powers to do that. And when I talk to people, you know, young families and people whose houses have convoys driving past, they're intimidated. So this is a way to take back the streets from the gangs and give it back to the law-abiding public. - Won't that raise tensions? Aren't you really advocating confrontation on the street? - No, no, it's not about that. It's about saying, 'Look, it's not appropriate to drive through the streets intimidating people.' The police can use it at their discretion. - Jan Tinetti, in the past week in Tauranga, a bus driver has been attacked. Nurses have had their cars broken into. A meth shipment, again, seized at the port. Is crime getting worse under Labour in Tauranga? - I would say, first and foremost, that my sympathies go to those people and anyone that feels scared by crime. And that's one of the reasons why this government is putting more resourcing into policing and more funding into fighting crime as we saw in the last budget. But that is only one solution, Simon. There is a multifaceted approach that needs to be taken across government. - I saw you shaking your head before about Sam Uffindell's policy. Are you saying that there would be an escalation on the streets of Tauranga if something like that was put into place? - I honestly think that that's a very short-sighted policy, because that sort of policy is not looking at the big picture and is coming from a lack of understanding of how gangs operate. - Yeah, Sam. - Simon, can I comment on that? It's only one piece of the puzzle, really. - Yeah. - You know, we had other things around firearm prohibition orders, setting up a specialist gang unit. And then there's all the work that Nicola Willis is going to do in the social investment port. - All right, OK. But I do want to raise the point that crime in Tauranga has increased in the year to April, but they are more minor crimes, like theft and burglary, less assault. Cameron Luxton, I mean, you want to go hard on gangs, but those kinds of crimes are not really what the gangs are into. - Look, minor crimes need to be prosecuted. ACT's got a policy that we want to introduce burglary into the three strikes regime. So, you know, if someone's committed three burglaries they've been caught for, the chances are they've committed many more, and a lot of the driver of that is drugs, which is driven by gangs. And the fact that gangs have increased` gang membership's increased by 50% since Labour came in, this just shows that, you know, this fluffy duck approach is not actually working. We need to hit them where it hurts, and that's their pocket. And ACT has been pushing a policy for this,... - And how did punitive work? How did punitive work for years? - ...and it was gang control orders which Labour has voted down, but apparently, I'm hearing again from Jacinda Ardern in the media this week, saying that they're going to start looking at gang control orders. - OK, Jan Tinetti, do you want to jump in there? - Yeah, I do, because they talk about the fact that they don't want a long-term solution` - I've never said that at all. - That's exactly what you're saying. Because you are saying` - We don't want a long-term solution? We want to punish crime` - Hang on, Cameron, hang on. Cameron. - You are saying you don't want a long-term solution, because all you are saying is what we have done for years ` a punitive approach. We need to be working on a long-term solution. We want a better future for our young people, and that means working with community, working across government, working with gangs as well for that solution. - OK, so you all agree that you want a safer community. But I just wonder, are you, Sam` Sorry. Are you, Cameron, and you, Sam, using the gangs as a fearmongering political grab? - Of course not. The people of Tauranga are seeing gangs on the streets more and more. And the reason for this is we have a hub in the centre of our city for the importation of drugs. It's no wonder that the gangs are trying to win dominance in our area. And we're being` the people of Tauranga are being intimidated. - I want to talk about safety, and I want to talk about racism next. Te Pati Maori isn't standing because it says Tauranga is unsafe, and it points to white extremists' leaflet drops as evidence. So, in our poll last week, we asked residents whether Tauranga is a racist city, and overall, they disagreed ` 52%. But if you drill down into these numbers ` Cameron Luxton first ` 71% of ACT supporters said, 'No, Tauranga is not racist.' 71%. Do you agree with them? - Well, that would line up pretty decently with the population of Tauranga. What I think the worrier here is, this is another way of dividing us, and, you know, I approach everybody based on how they come across as an individual. We shouldn't be` Nobody should be subject to racism, and we shouldn't be using racism as a card in a political environment. - Sam Uffindell, 66% of National supporters in that said Tauranga isn't racist. Do you agree with them? Is that a yes? - I'm aware of those leaflet drops, and I condemn those, and I think what we can all agree on here is that we don't, you know, support racism in any form. - Right. OK. - No. Yeah. - It's despicable. - Jan Tinetti, the Labour supporters were, like, split 50/50. Which side of the camp do you fall? - I think there are elements of racism within the city. I've seen it first-hand when I was principal at Merivale School. I definitely have seen racism first-hand. I've had those leaflets pasted on to the front of my parliamentary office in Tauranga. It's` I agree, though, with what Sam has said. We have to stand up as leaders within the city and say it is not OK. We can't say that it doesn't exist. It does exist, but we have to stand up and say it is not OK. - OK. - Yup. The constituents of Tauranga ` 18% of the population are Maori. OK. So I want to ask you, each of you, why do you feel that you can represent them? I am going to ask you, Sam, first. - Well, I've got out there twice and spoken to Ngai Te Rangi. I will continue to work closely with them. I know they do a lot of good work. Look, I have a part-Maori wife and part-Maori children. I'm also trying to learn te reo. I'm not very good. My eldest daughter, Lily, is beating me hands down at the moment. But I'm making a concerted effort to learn about Maoridom and connect with them, and I will look at doing all I can to make sure their needs are met. - Cameron Luxton, how could you represent Maori in the Tauranga electorate? - Look, Maori are individuals just like everybody. I've grown up in this town, and I've grown up around the 18% Maori population. I'm friends with many people across many walks of life, not just Maori and not just Pakeha. What people in Tauranga need are safer communities and a better education system than what we have. - Do they need targeted policies, though? - Targeted based on what? Targeted based on what, need? - On their need. - Yeah. People need policies` they need support targeted` everybody needs support targeted on their needs. - Don't they need targeted policies based on race? - Well, no. If you've got an issue, then that's your issue to be dealing with, and other people of other races have the same issues. I mean, we're a multi-ethnic liberal democracy. We can't be walking our way towards an ethnostate. It's just not safe. It's been proven through history to be a bad idea. - Jan Tinetti, how could you represent Maori in Tauranga? - By listening, to start with. As I've said to you, I've already been in a Maori environment within Tauranga. I shifted there in 2006 and was principal at Merivale School, which is a predominantly Maori school, with Rumaki unit and mainstream, but over 80% of the pupils identify as Maori. I found it was really important to connect with the iwi, listen to the iwi. But I will say, Simon, that if we expect to keep doing the same or having the same Eurocentric approach towards lifting Maori from the bottom of all stats, where they sit, particularly, I'm talking about education and health, if we expect that same Eurocentric approach to have better results, then we are kidding ourselves. - So you are advocating targeted support not only on need but on race? - Absolutely. - OK. All right, I just want to move on. We've almost finished this section of the debate. But, before we go, there's a question to you all and that is ` who is your political hero and why? First up, I'd like to ask you, Cameron. - Well, you know, being a classical liberal that I am, I'd say Margaret Thatcher. Tamati Waka Nene for what he said at Waitangi when the Treaty was being signed. You know, that speech that he gave is a truly inspiring speech, and people should read it, so they can see why we came together as a country. Because we want to be, you know` At the bottom of the world, we've got to look after each other. We can't be separating ourselves. - OK. - And we shouldn't be doing that on race; we shouldn't be doing it on vaccination; we shouldn't be doing it on anything. - OK. All right, well, let's move on to Sam. Political hero. - I really respect Bill English for what he's done. I think the social investment piece that he was rolling out as prime minister had huge potential, and, hopefully, when we get back in, Nicola Willis can take that on. Very hardworking; very, very smart; very humble ` all great qualities. - And, Jan, finally to you. - Yeah, I've actually got a couple. And they're all women. So I've got Kamala Harris for the work that she's done in breaking the glass ceilings that she's gone through, and the other two prime ministers in New Zealand that have been amazing, in my mind, being Helen Clark and Jacinda Ardern for the glass ceilings that they've broken through as well. - Well, you've got to like the boss, right? - Yeah, absolutely. But I also just want to say that my absolute political hero is not a politician or was not a politician, and that's Helen Kelly, and that is because she fought for the underdog, and she was relentless in that fight. - All right. Plenty of debate to come, so stay with us. We'll be back after the break. With me, the candidates ` Sam Uffindell, Jan Tinetti and Cameron Luxton. Let's talk infrastructure. It's crucial down there, and we talked to the constituents on the street again. Here's what they had to say ` - What is most important to me is the traffic ` trying to get through the traffic quickly, so that we can build up the CBD. What are you going to do about that? - What are you going to do to help the city grow outwards as far as infrastructure for roading and housing? - Yeah, I'd like to know what you're going to do about traffic, infrastructure and housing for the people who live in Tauranga. - So the big questions ` infrastructure; Tauranga needs better roads. If you win, what's the first thing that you would immediately sort? Jan. - So, this government has already put quite a bit of funding into infrastructure in Tauranga. Successive governments have really struggled to get traction on the ground around infrastructure just because of various reasons that we've had in the city. But now we're seeing a confidence that we haven't seen before. So it's to ensure that that continuum keeps moving, that we get that momentum keeping on going. And I think that that's incredibly important. Really excited about the Infrastructure Assistance Fund that we've had announcements made recently through to the next stage. Tauranga's getting a fair whack of that ` about 20% of the entire fund. So really excited to see that come to fruition. - So you're saying that Labour's got it under control. - Absolutely. Cameron, has Labour got it under control? - I don't think the people of Tauranga agree with what Jan has just said about Labour having it under control. Clearly, from the people you've spoken to, it's a big issue, and I agree with them. Look, I'm a builder, and I understand how hard it is to get some housing built for us. And so what ACT's proposing is a GST-sharing scheme, which would actually share the GST on new builds ` hear me out ` which would help fund the infrastructure and encourage councils to actually sign some consents through. - I want to bring in Sam here. Tauranga has been forgotten in this. Basically, it's been a National Party seat for a very long time. - So who's responsible? - I'm asking the questions here. (LAUGHTER) Sam, who is responsible? To quote Cameron. - Look, there's a lot of investment that needs to go in here. We're the fastest-growing city in the country. We've got the largest port in New Zealand, and we need to develop the highways that feed into that. - And we are. And we are. - We had we had State Highway 2 funded, ready to go and out for tender` - Not fully funded. - Hang on, Jan. - And they cancelled it, and they know that. And they've re-committed to Stage One, which is good, but National will commit to Stage One and Two, all the way up to Omokoroa. - All political promises that will fall over at change of government. - You've had your say. Hang on. - We're actually the only party sitting up here that's made any policy announcements around infrastructure. - 10 bridges were promised to Northland. What are we going to get? - Cameron, just let Sam talk, please. - Sorry. Go. - - He's noisy, isn't he? - Yeah. Well, it's because I think Tauranga needs a voice. - Cameron, come on. - (CHUCKLES) - We have committed to that. We are the only party that's committed to build a new road, and we'll be building that all the way up to Omokoroa. And the other piece ` you know, we recognise that State Highway 29 over the Kaimais needs some love. - There's a big issue in Tauranga, and that is cost of living and, in particular, rates. We had another chat to the people on the streets. Here's what they said ` - How are you going to help us with rates? The rates, at the moment, are astronomically high, and they seem to be getting higher. - I'd like to know what the candidate might do to help families in need, because I see that as a huge problem. And if I were not earning a reasonable income, I'd be really quite worried about living here. - So, rates are predicted to rise 12% to 13% to pay for everything that you need. Cameron, is that justified? - Yeah, well, I mean, what I've just said before ` we need to fund infrastructure with a GST-sharing scheme like ACT is proposing. But I think another problem that we're facing in Tauranga is we've lost our democracy. We need to get that back. Because what's happening now is we've got commissioners that are proposing multi` hundreds of millions of dollars worth of spending which will add $200 to the average ratepayer without anyone who's a ratepayer having a chance to vote on it. - But you need infrastructure, right? - I think, the commissioners, if they think that this` Well, it's not infra` It's infrastructure in the broad sense of the word, but it's not going to improve people's day-to-day lives as they travel to work and to activities. - OK. Jan Tinetti, I mean, you're shaking your head at that. But 12% to 13% hikes in rates is extraordinary, isn't it? How are the people of Tauranga going to be able to afford that? - One of the issues that we have had, which has been highlighted here, is that we've not had the infrastructure go into the city that has been needed for the mere fact that it is New Zealand's fastest-growing city. - So the ratepayers have to pay for it. - It has to be a mixture of local government and central government coming to the party, which is why this government is putting so much funding through the Infrastructure Assistance Fund. - Sam, 12% to 13%, do you agree with that? - Look, it's a big rate increase, and that's gonna be a year on year. And when I'm out there, knocking on doors ` and I've knocked on thousands of doors ` a lot of people have said, 'These rates are really steep. 'And when are we going to get to vote for our council again?' Look, we acknowledge the previous council was dysfunctional and central government stepped in, appointed commissioners, but that was to end in October '22. So, under a National-led government, the people of Tauranga would be electing their own council this year. - Right. So we're talking about social cohesion there, like providing services and giving the people who have less what they deserve. Cameron, I just want to pick up something that you said before about social cohesion. You said, 'We shouldn't divide by vaccination.' What do you mean by that? - Well, we shouldn't be dividing by vaccination, generation, race. I mean, there's so many things right now` - Well, we've talked about race and generation. What do you mean by vaccination? - Well, look, if people are` you know, if we're going to mandate people to partake in society, we need to be clear about what we're doing in that situation. And we've got to have defined timelines for that sort of thing to be removed. And ACT's been saying for this entire COVID response` You know, we've been putting out COVID response strategies every six months and, you know, Labour just picks them up six months later. I mean, it's always too late, and we're really suffering economically as a result of that. - So, to be clear, were you saying that the mandates shouldn't have been in place or they should have been taken` - No. We` ACT was saying at the point that we should have mandates or negative tests. You know, this is what we're saying. And, now, I mean, it's time mandates were gone. - OK. All right. I just want to move on, because you talked about Tauranga, Cameron, you mentioned that, you know, it's a port that helps the rest of the country. And as you all know, Tauranga is the fastest-growing city in New Zealand, so a couple of quick questions. First of all to you, Jan Tinetti ` what is the median house price in Tauranga? - It's about 875,000. - 1.178 million. - MUTTERS: God. Yeah. - And that was in May 2020. Sam Uffindell, what is the population of Tauranga city? - 155,000. - That's probably right, because in 2018, it was 136,000. Cameron Luxton, what is the median age of a Taurangian? - I'm picking it's older than the standard age, because we've been a retirement capital because of our beautiful beaches and infrastructure` you know, and formerly infrastructure, but now it's starting to be encroached on. And so we might not get these people that want to live out their golden years in our city any more. - And do you have a number? - No. As a number, no, I don't, sorry. - All right. So, it's 40.4 years of age, and that was in 2018. And it's dropping ` it was 41 in 2013. So it's younger than you think. - Should have had a punt. - (CHUCKLES) All right. One local that I spoke to said that attracting staff to Tauranga with house prices at the moment is impossible. House prices are falling somewhat. Should they fall further? This is a yes or no, Sam. - I mean, I can't determine whether they should fall up and down, but we need to make sure that we can build them and build them faster than we are at the moment. - Jan Tinetti, yes or no? - Yes. And increase supply. - Right. Cameron. - It's not up to politicians to say where the market should be, but we should be making sure that houses that me and my industry which I'm a part of, that we can actually get these things built without having to run through the unbelievable amount of red tape. - One quick yes-or-no question ` should Aucklanders be banned from moving to Tauranga? Sam. - Of course they shouldn't. - (CHUCKLES) Jan. - No! - No. - No? You all like Aucklanders? Cos a lot of them have come down, right? - Absolutely. - OK, so, one of the reasons they have come down is because of the lifestyle and because the area is beautiful. But not one of you really seems to be talking about climate change. I haven't really heard much. So can you tell me one specific, Tauranga-based policy of yours to battle climate change? Sam. - Well, if we're going to have EVs on our roads and buses on our roads, then we need to make sure that our roads are fit for purpose. So that's why we'll be pouring investment into that. And, you know what? Once you get that happening, all that traffic that's sitting there idling, throwing carbon into the air, well, it'll be moving from A to B a lot faster. - So more roads. OK. Jan Tinetti. - So, on the Tauranga Northern Link, it's a four-lane highway, and two of those lanes either way will have dedicated public transport lanes and also transit lanes there as well ` and/or transit lanes. But making sure, an eye to the future, that we do have good public transport, making certain that those corridors are being protected. - So increasing public transport. Cameron. - Yeah, look, I agree. We need to have better roading infrastructure, so that people aren't spending their time idling in traffic. - So it's all about roads in Tauranga, isn't it? - Well, we have a huge problem right now. I mean, I want to send guys to work on the other side of town, and it just can't be done because the price to actually pay someone to sit in traffic makes some jobs unaffordable. - We're going to wrap up really soon. And as you've seen today and you see generally, politics is an adversarial game. But I want you to be kind for a moment. (CHUCKLING) So it's time to give some compliments. So starting with you, Jan ` what is one compliment you would give to Sam? - I've only just meet Sam in this campaign cos he's new to Tauranga, but I really like his confidence, and I really like the fact that he does have Tauranga at heart. - Thank you. - A nice backhanded compliment there. Sam, what compliment would you give to Cameron? - He's got a great dad, and Cam looks wonderful in his make-up today. (LAUGHTER) - All right. And, Cameron, could you please compliment Jan? - Jan and I have known each other for a few years now. I mean, we both stood in the 2020 campaign. We get along wonderfully. We're both very kind to each other, and I like that. - (CHUCKLES) OK, very good. This is your final question and your final moment. You've each got about 20 seconds to look down the barrel of this camera here, OK? And you need to tell the voters of Tauranga why they should choose you. And I'm going to start with Sam. Take it away. - I'm working as hard as I can for this, knocking on doors, talking to people and businesses. I'm putting out policies around roading and infrastructure, putting out policies to tackle crime and gangs. We recognise that cost of living is a massive problem. And we will give you back your local democracy. I would love your support. - All right. Let's move on to Jan Tinetti. - I'm passionate about Tauranga. I moved here in 2006. It is my home. I love the place. I am working really hard every single day to make it a better city to live in, and I will continue to do so around the cabinet table. - All right. And finally, Cameron Luxton. I'm a father, and I'm a husband and a builder and a business owner. I've been an award-winning dairy farmer, and I know the issues that we have in Tauranga, because I have been a part of experiencing the growth that we've had and the pain that has come with that. I think, you know, I want to say this ` my career is for Tauranga. Tauranga is not part of my career. I want to make a difference so that my children love the city as much as I did growing up. - OK. Thank you very much for your closing statements, and that is a wrap. Thank you to our candidates, National's Sam Uffindell, Labour's Jan Tinetti and ACT's Cameron Luxton. Best of luck on June the 18th. And thank you for watching our Tauranga by-election debate. - And what a fiery debate it was, Simon. Ka pai. - Yeah, kia ora, Oriini. It's your turn next. We'll be returning after the break with all the analysis from our political panel ` Mike Williams, Tania Tapsell and Dr Lara Greaves. Here in the studio with us is former Labour Party President Mike Williams, senior lecturer in New Zealand politics at Auckland University, Dr Lara Greaves, and former National Party candidate Tania Tapsell. Tena koutou. Morena. - Morena. - Mike, let's start with you. What did you make of our Tauranga debate? Who do you think came out on top? - Well, I thought it was very interesting, but I think you missed the point. This is one of the safest National seats in New Zealand by far. Labour has won it once in the last 87 years, and that was in 1935, and they won it by 32 votes. That poll actually shows National not doing very well. 57% of the vote. Well, Bridges got 61%. Peters, in 1995 as a National Party, got 65%. The average Labour vote over the last eight elections is 15%, and Jan Tinetti's getting 22. So it's actually a good result for Labour, and not a great result for National. - Don't you think we're all a bit scarred by the 2015 Northland by-election, with Winston Peters coming through and taking what was viewed as` I guess that's the closest seat, but I think that the major parties are potentially a little bit more hesitant now to just necessarily think, 'Oh, that's a safe seat.' - Yeah, I think you're looking at apples and pears. Northland was pretty well a three-way split. - History aside, this is a really exciting opportunity for Tauranga have a refresh, and they do have the current list MP in Jan. - Mm. - And I was very impressed with her, actually, in this debate. But I think, Sam ` we can't underestimate him. He came in swinging, and he was the only one that actually provided local solutions and policies for Tauranga. - Yeah, he couldn't seem to crack a smile, though, could he? He was all a bit serious, I thought. - Yeah, but based on our poll results for Sam, he is leading by 56.9%. - Yeah. - Do you think he's a rising star for National? - No, he didn't strike me as a rising star. What's happening is` - Because he didn't crack a smile? - Well, that was one reason. He also talked quite a bit of nonsense. I mean, the northern approach to Tauranga is one of the most dangerous roads in the country. And National had nine years to fix that, and Bridges was Minister of Transport controlling one of the biggest budgets, and they did nothing in that period. So I think he's got a bit of defending to do. - OK. Dr Lara Greaves, what did you make of Cameron Luxton? Quite fiery, quite strong, actually, in that debate. Do you reckon he's earned the right to move up the ladder in terms of ACT's... - Yeah, one of my take-homes from this debate was just a shout-out to you guys for even running it, because it's so good to see unpolished candidates in there. They're not like the Labour Party leader or, I guess, Jan Tinetti is a Cabinet minister, so it was great to see more from her, but it's just great to have more different people in politics. You know, him playing up his building construction background. It's really important to make sure we do have that representational diversity in politics in terms of educational background and skills. - Tania, what did you think, though, of their responses to how they can support Maori in the community in Tauranga? Did you agree with how they'` How did you think? - I think Maori in Tauranga may have found it a little underwhelming. You know, Jen's response of, 'Well, first of all, listen.' Well, that's great. But what people want is they actually want action. So, you know, good on Sam. He's the new kid on the block, but he's already gone to seeing Ngai Te Rangi, one of the mana whenua there, twice already. And I actually thought it was awesome that he's learning te reo. So it's that not only doing it from a political approach, but also a personal approach. And obviously Cam already has strong connections there in Tauranga. - What struck me is both right wing candidates talked up their connections with Maoridom. Now, that wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. That is definitely a step in the right direction. - OK. All right. None of them, though, had anything quite strong or prioritised climate change, Lara. - I don't necessarily think we'd expect that from them as candidates in a by-election where they would come forward with a climate policy. I feel like that's more for their party leadership specifically, and I don't know if I necessarily expect them` for that to be like a huge thing that they had a handle on at this point, especially, yeah` - Speaking of expectations, did you expect the response from Cameron Luxton, Tania, in terms of who has political idols where? - Yes. So his one, and he went way back. - Tamati Waka Nene? - Yes, Tamati Waka Nene, and I thought, good on him. He was the only person that did actually acknowledge Te Tiriti or Waitangi. But his points, I think, were we actually need to work together. We need to stop that division. So, you know, good on him for that. But if we can go back to the climate change one, I did think that all of the candidates response was hugely disappointing, because Tauranga, as an electorate, it's an ocean city, and they've got significant coastal erosion in a harbour erosion issue. So I think that people who associate with Tauranga, with the moana and with the Mt Mauao, actually, like the environment is a really important part for them, so I would have thought there'd be more aspiration. - All right, Mike, to you, our poll was a week ago. The election isn't until next week. Could there still be a surprise result? - No. No, this is an absolutely safe National seat. - It's a done deal, you reckon? - Uffindell will win it by country mile. He won't do as well as Bridges. Labour, if they get 22%, that's a very good result for Labour, and they should be pleased with that. But there will be no surprises. What will be interesting is the level of turnout. - Yeah, that's what I'm watching too. Yeah. - That's what will tell you the level of engagement and will be a comment on Christopher Luxon. - All right, we'll pick the korero up later on. There you have it. We'll come back to our panel after the break. But before that, senior reporter Conor Whitten's special report on the anti-mandate vote in Tauranga. are also on the ballot this by-election with several candidates who supported the protests now vying for the Tauranga seat. - An exclusive Newshub Nation Reid Research poll reveals more than a fifth of Tauranga voters would consider voting for a party with anti-mandate views, and a number of those in the race are considering joining forces for the general election in 2023. Senior reporter Conor Whitten has this exclusive report. - Sue Grey's new to the streets of Tauranga, but many already know her by name. - Are you Sue Grey? - I am, yes. - Hi! - A lawyer and leader in the anti-vax movement. - The masks ` I'm just over it. - And a prominent figure at the parliament protests. But Grey is just one of several candidates running in Tauranga with similar views. Former city councillor Andrew Hollis... - A true Tauranga local... - And the ONE Party's Alan Cawood. - Hi, I'm Alan Hayward. I'm standing in the by-election. - Each have a range of values and policies, but they're united by COVID-19. Do you consider yourself part of that anti mandate movement? - Absolutely. Without a shadow of a doubt. - Do you believe in the COVID-19 vaccine? - No, I don't support the COVID-19 vaccine at all. Behind National, Labour and ACT, Hollis, and Cawood are next in line; together, accounting for more than 9% in our exclusive poll of Tauranga voters. But the trio believe they can do better, and our poll shows there could be room for more support. We asked voters ` you will recall the anti-mandate protests outside Parliament. Would you consider voting for a party that supports those views? Two-thirds of Tauranga voters said no, but more than 20% said yes. Would you vote for a candidate who supported those parties? - Yes. - I don't think I would have supported them. I supported the mandates 100%. - And now those parties are considering joining forces to run together in next year's general election. - And we've had a couple of meetings or several meetings about that. - And in behind the scenes, we are who we are talking extremely heavily. - For us to be able to get into Parliament as individuals, we're not going to make it. We need to` We need to unite. - Life isn't easy for a minor party. The campaign event for Hollis on Wednesday took place in a mostly empty room. - The one and only Andrew Hollis. (SCATTERED APPLAUSE) - But the parties claim to be gaining attention. - We are pulling some very good donations through. - And with that comes greater scrutiny. Grey in particular has come under fire for false claims about COVID-19. - Should politicians always tell the truth? - Of course. - Do you believe that everything that you've said about COVID-19 is true? - I believe so. I don't think I've said anything that's not true. - You said extending the vaccine roll out to teenagers was, quote, 'government mandated genocide.' What's your evidence for that? - Genocide is an unwanted death. - It's more than one. - Why would you even` - How many deaths do you think there have been? - Well, in New Zealand is close to 500 post-vaccine deaths, and that's on the people's register that's been very carefully followed through. There's been quite a lot of information about that from doctors and people` - Three deaths in New Zealand have been linked to the vaccine. - No, no. Nearly 500 deaths have followed the vaccine. 160 deaths have been recorded in New Zealand within 28 days of a COVID vaccination. All are investigated by National Drug Safety Authority, Medsafe. And after more than 10 million doses, only three deaths have been linked to the vaccine. Cawood is promoting unproven treatments. - There's medications like the ivermectin and the hydroxychloroquine and those sort of products that actually work. - Health experts say there's no evidence for ivermectin being a cure for COVID-19. What is your evidence for that? - My wife and I had COVID, and we took some ivermectin that we had that was` You know, that we had in in our drug cabinet. We took it and within four or five days, we were back up again. - According to Medsafe, there is no evidence to support the use of ivermectin for treatment or prevention of COVID-19, but this campaign is about more than COVID. The parties share a range of other theories too. - And this government is in focus, and just looking out for themselves. And I believe that they've got an agenda. They've absolutely got an agenda. - What do you mean by that? What is their agenda? - Well, if you're going to have a look at Jacinda Ardern herself, she's a student from the World Economic Forum. Her photograph is there. So I believe that there's something going on in there with the United Nations. - There are people who believe the United Nations and the World Economic Forum control the world. Is that what you're saying? - Yeah. - The World Economic Forum and United Nations feature in conspiracy theories about an unfounded plot to take over the world Many other issues are more straightforward. - Top priorities are ending Three Waters. Top priority would be the economy, looking at the at the cost of living issue. - And the parties don't always agree, but they're exploring coalition options so they can campaign together in 2023. - I'd say there'd be a very good chance of 2023 of the freedom, democracy, voice, getting a platform, getting elected. - The first test of its strength on the ballot next week in Tauranga, where an anti-mandate anti-government movement hopes to prove it's here to stay. - Senior reporter Conor Whitten with that exclusive report. Back to our panel now, Mike Williams, Dr. Lara Greaves and Tania Tapsell. So more than 20% of potential voters would consider voting a party that supports those anti-mandate views. What do you make of that, Lara? - Yeah. So my PHD student Luke Oldfield had an editorial in Stuff this week that was based on the New Zealand election study. Basically we're analysing those results now ` bit delayed because of COVID ` but we're analysing them now, and basically there's not really any evidence to show that those groups are going to unite and that there's enough of a voice there to get to that 5% threshold. - Tania, you live in a regional centre. What did you make of those numbers? Did they surprise you? - I suppose really there's two things that we're talking about. There's the anti mandates, which is mandating the rules, but then there was the anti-vax. Now there was some real radical comments made in those interviews just then that I think are more focused on the anti-vax. But there's still the portion of people that thought that mandates on where you could do` Oh, where you could go, what you could do, who you could see was in some cases a bit unfair. - Okay, Mike, those smaller parties are looking, though, at joining hands for the next election. Could they get over the 5% threshold? - Very unlikely. If you look at vaccination rates, they are around about 97%, 98% ` 99% where I live. That's a measure of the tiny minority we're talking about. But I have to say that there does seem to be an overrepresentation of right-wing nutters in Tauranga. I can recall arriving for a meeting early and killing a couple of hours in a coffee bar and I picked up a giveaway newspaper and it was full of climate change denier letters, which I'd never struck anywhere else. So I think there's sort of groups that work on each other, but it is a tiny minority, and I can't see them getting together. - So maybe you can't extrapolate this out to the entire country? - Probably not. I mean, I think that if we really did have a group that were going to come together and be that minor party, that anti mandate type, anti-covid mandate party, I think we would be able to see them somewhere in data. At the moment, we're not` Like no one's really picked up much on them except for social media analysis. They do show in some polls, yeah. - And it would have happened by now. - But I think, to stick up for the region, though, Tauranga has been getting a really bad rap on the racism on the climate change deniers, remember this is just a portion of people. And when we're focussing on one place and we're giving them lots of voice, it does seem like that, but Tauranga in general is very respectful and a great place to live. - Well, maybe they're a bit noisier in Tauranga than they are elsewhere. But I mean, I think it's a very pleasant place and I don't agree that it's racist in any way, shape or form. I've been there often, but it does seem to be this vocal right wing group and several of them in Tauranga that you hear quite a bit about. - OK. What's the likelihood that that anti-mandate sentiment will carry on into the next election? Tania. - The next election is quite some time away, and I think by there, in another year and a half, people are going to feel a lot more confident, because we will actually know what the future's going to look like. Right now, we're still waiting to see what that is from the government, I suppose. So I think by then people will feel a lot more comfortable. - Do you agree with that, Mike? - Yeah, I do. I think this is already becoming ancient history. - OK. Are there dangers, Lara, in extrapolating` you know, go back to extrapolating it out from Tauranga nationally. Do you think these dangers, though, that still are prevalent? - Yeah, I think that a lot of my colleagues that study political extremism would point to the context of` the anti-mandate context creating extremists, and creating people that are willing to be violent. And that was what was most concerning about the parliament protest, because a lot of people, I think, were supportive of there being a protest and people's right to protest, and as Tania had said, you know, people's views in that space and being and anti-lockdown, but when it kind of turned into violence, I think that that is concerning. And it then becomes a question of, OK, how do you like make those people feel listened to and reintegrate those people? So then you don't get that pocket that going more and more extreme and get separated from society. - Yeah. How do you do that, Mike? - Well, I'd make the point that, you know, what descended into violence was a tiny minority of a minority. And it's really not` I don't think it's a big threat. - OK We'll leave it there. Thank you very much for your time this morning and for joining us on Newshub Nation this week. Tena kotou. U tonu mai, stay with us. We're back after the break. The Supreme Court this week quashed his conviction for the death of Arthur Easton. In 2018, the miscarriage of justice began to be championed by former Newshub Nation reporter Mike Wesley-Smith, and it's now being investigated by the Solicitor-General. - After 36 years of fighting to clear his name, Alan Hall's murder conviction has been quashed by the Supreme Court. - His mum, Shirley, persevered for 27 years. - In her final weeks, we said, you know, 'We are going to fight on.' - Former Newshub journalist Mike Wesley-Smith started looking into the case six years ago. - This is what a family's endeavours look like when they're trying to get a conviction of a loved one overturned. - And along the way, we had Mike Wesley-Smith come along and do a wonderful podcast... - Mm-hm. - ...with his team from Newshub Nation. - A miscarriage of justice is a miscarriage of justice, but I've never seen as clear-cut a case in my career as this one. - 36 years of it, and here we are, final moments. And we got a` got what... we needed. - The Police will review its original investigation. Solicitor-General has launched an investigation to find out how the Crown's role in this miscarriage occurred and why the criminal justice system failed to remedy it earlier. - There's still a surviving body of evidence from the case, and there are lots of unanswered questions. There is no reason that this case cannot be reinvestigated. The Easton family deserve that. - Yesterday was yesterday. Today's today. But right this very second, I'm` I'm gonna be in the moment. - Well, Mike Wesley-Smith joins me now. Mike, you investigated the case for many years and there was little progress until January this year. Can you tell us what changed? - Yeah, look, I think a huge amount of that was down to the Crown's approach, which, really, was a stark difference from 36 years prior. And a lot of credit go out to the Deputy Solicitor-General Madeleine Laracy and her colleague Emma Hoskin who just` their conduct of this case was exemplary, you know. They really helped pave the way for a very expeditious hearing in this week just gone. But, yeah, I think they saw all the problems the way everyone else did and the Supreme Court ultimately` - Yeah. I mean, as somebody who was reporting on it and then, as an observer, you were watching what was the hearing down there, and you thought it was strange, cos it seemed like two defence lawyers. - Well, yeah, in a way, there was a real obvious sense of common purpose and a meeting of minds as to the really egregious, obvious aspects of the case that just stood out as being completely wrong. And so it was` Yeah, in terms of the legal process, it was quite` quite impressive to witness. - So why did it take so long to get to this point? Why didn't Alan Hall's case hit the spotlight like David Bain and Teina Pora's? - You know, it's a really good question, Simon. I've reflected on it a lot. I think, in part, it was maybe because, like, with David Bain, he had some very, you know, vocal supporters who were always in the media. Alan and his family are, you know, are quite quiet people, you know. Yes, they would speak out and things, but, you know` And a lot of that time, Alan was in prison, so, obviously, it was very difficult for him to, kind of, tell his story. But, yeah, it remains to me a bit of a mystery as to... - Does it point to a broader problem within police and within, say, Crown Law of not wanting to acknowledge their failings, what's happened with this miscarriage of justice? - Yeah, I think there's part of that. I mean, you know, between 2018 and 2020, I made lots of communications with those agencies. I literally went everywhere I thought I could. And I was appealing not to` I was not asking them to say, you know, Alan's innocent or guilty. I was pointing out there's this clear abuse of the court process with respect to his trial that was obvious to anyone that` that saw them. And I thought that anyone who had a belief in maintaining the integrity of the justice system would recognise that, and, unfortunately, it wasn't until this year that that actually happened. - So you were not only frustrated but surprised by that sort of attitude and that brick wall mentality? - Yeah, definitely, because it wasn't about Alan's guilt or innocence. This was about the court process. And as the Supreme Court laid out, it was abuse, really clearly. And anyone who has any belief in the court system or wants to defend its processes, I would have thought would have seen that, and, you know, I wanted to jump into action, but it was so slow for that to happen. - It takes a long time, obviously, for Alan Hall to get that recognition, even during the process, even during the hearing this week. Can you tell me about that? - Yeah. So, I mean, the indignity kind of continued right up until the last moments. I mean, Alan was denied funding to come fly down to the hearing, so Legal Aid wouldn't pay for that. - So he had` Sorry, he had to pay for his own flight to go down to his own hearing? - Yep. And even during the hearing, his brother was contacted by probation services to say, 'Look, when Alan flies up, we're gonna have to put his monitoring bracelet back on his ankle,' even though, you know, the Supreme Court was gonna quash his conviction, and it only took some last-minute actions from his lawyer to make sure that didn't happen. But it just speaks to the inflexibility of some of these processes. And, you know... Yeah, again, I was just astonished that that was even conceived as being a possibility. - OK. So if Alan Hall is innocent, the murderer is still out there. So what should happen now? - Well, look, I think the Solicitor-General's announcement of an inquiry is certainly a really positive step in the right direction. I think the police have announced a review into their investigation. In my personal belief, having reviewed the police file, I think there's more than enough evidence to commence another investigation that points very firmly in the direction of a particular person or people. You know, I have a pretty good awareness of the case, and I don't see there being any reason not to progress it. - Right. And so, I mean, you've also been involved with Tim McKinnel who was involved with Teina Pora, and he said something similar. Is that right? - Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, he has probably even more familiarity with the evidence. And there's no doubt that there is enough to at least have another look. - Right. Doesn't it have to wait until the Solicitor-General has to conclude there? Do you believe that they could action that now? - Absolutely. You know, I don't see there being any reason to. You know, what that Solicitor-general inquiry is looking into is something distinctly separate. That's looking at the conduct of Crown lawyers. The investigation of that murder is really separate. And Arthur Easton's family, who also should be remembered in all of this, they have also called on the police to, you know, conduct that inquiry, because they've been denied justice as long as Alan has. - OK. Alan Hall cannot get back those years, but can he get compensation for this? - Well, look, that's the next thing. And, you know, hopefully, if the Crown's approach to the appeal is to continue in a similar spirit, the compensation process should hopefully be one that's very quickly resolved. I don't think there's any doubt that Alan has, you know, proved his innocence, even though he's kind of not required to. That's this quirk of the compensation process that the burden of proof is put on the person claiming the money. But, I think, in this case, with the clarity of the Supreme Court's hearing, that should be, kind of` that should just follow as a matter of course. - Right. Just quickly ` do you think that this case could highlight other similar ones? - You know, you always hope. I mean, I entered into the Alan Hall investigation post the Teina Pora case, and I never thought that I would come up against some of the institutional barriers that Tim McKinnel and Teina, um,... came across in their case. So you can never say that there won't be another one like this out there. So it just` it just` it's incumbent upon all of us ` crown lawyers, journalists, defence lawyers, anyone ` to be vigilant. - Mike Wesley-Smith. Thank you so much for your time. - Thank you very much, Simon. - Welcome back. (CHUCKLES) - Thank you. - And that's all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching. Nga mihi nui. And we will see you again next weekend. Captions by Sophie Pearce, Jessie Puru and John Gibbs. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - This show was brought to you by the NZ On Air Public Interest Journalism Fund.