Is it a new dawn for health? One day into their new jobs, we meet the two women in charge of a system in crisis. Green Foreign Affairs Spokesperson Golriz Ghahraman critiques an historic week for New Zealand in global affairs and trade. And overstretched and burned out ` are we about to see a circuit breaker in the bitter dispute between firefighters and their bosses? On Friday, the biggest transformation to New Zealand's public health system took place. 20 DHBs were dissolved and replaced by one centralised entity, Health New Zealand. Working alongside it will be the new Maori Health Authority. The upheaval comes as COVID and the winter flu overwhelm a seemingly exhausted workforce. One day into their new jobs, the CEOs of Health New Zealand and the Maori Health Authority, Margie Apa and Riana Manuel, join me now. Tena korua. Thank you for your time. So, here we are, the two wahine with the task of overhauling our lumbering health system. Margie, do you regret taking the job already? - Absolutely not. Absolutely not. It's a privilege, and we're really humbled by how many people in the system are telling us, you know, 'It's tough, but we need to get on with it.' - Right. Riana, it's a new job. - Brand new. - Brand new job, OK. - Building it from the ground up. - OK. So are you daunted by the challenge? - No. And I'm like Margie. Um... You know, we have a saying, 'Noku te whiwhi.' It's my honour to be able to take this job on for the first time. But more importantly, I'm excited by what we can do in this space and, you know, creating an opportunity that we haven't got currently. - All right. Margie, how would you describe our health system right now? - Oh, it's a tough time, Simon, for our health system. You know, but going into COVID, we were already challenged by workforce demand growing from our populations, and so COVID has exacerbated some of the challenges that we were dealing with beforehand. So` - OK. It's a tough time. Andrew Little has stopped short of calling it a crisis, but I would suggest to you, Riana, that, for Maori, it is a crisis. - I think, for Maori, we've been a long time in this space, and so the Maori Health Authority is an opportunity to really make a difference. And that's what I kind of keep coming back to. Maori health has been in a poor state for decades. It's not a new thing. So this is a really intentional move now to make sure that we deal with that. - So would you use the word 'crisis' for Maori health? - I would use the word that` yeah, that we've got work to do in Maori Health, and this is the start. - That's a very diplomatic answer. Are you the right person, are you the right champion for the job? - Absolutely. I come from the community. I come from` You know, I've been on the front line nearly all my working career. I know how to manage spaces, to drive innovation and to make sure that we push equity to the front of the table. - Why don't you think it's a crisis, then? - Because I think that, you know, if we get caught up in the semantics of what is a crisis, what is not, I think I've made it clear that for decades our people have been in a poor state of health and well-being, and I don't tend to focus solely on the presence of disease. I want to focus on the presence of well-being. So` - OK. Well-being is a long-term project. This is a long-term project. I think we'd both agree on that. What is your first priority? First to you, Margie. - Well, our priority will be to work on workforce ` you know, the staff shortages and how we can take advantage of being one organisation that can coordinate activity, support shifting of resources to support workforces, while we are building a pipeline of more people coming into our system. - Right. So, Riana, is that your first priority or what is yours? - Yes, so, I believe we've got some really good things we can do quickly around workforce development. So, for instance, during COVID, we saw the kaimanaaki workforce really rise up and take on some of those tasks that I think will be helpful for us in terms of lightening the loads. - Are you talking about vaccination programme roll-out? - Absolutely. The PCR roll-ups. So that was an opportunity to micro-credential a specific workforce to bring in additional help. So it's not trying to replace anything. It's actually trying to put some additional hands in the game, to say, 'Well, what else could we do with a workforce like it?' Childhood immunisations might be an opportunity ` a whole range of tasks. - Yes. Margie, Andrew Little, I think I saw you quoted as saying he's given you some immediate targets, and he's going to hold you accountable. What are they? - Well, workforce is one of those important initiatives. The Minister has said to us we need to improve workplace culture, and, you know, we know our staff and our management and leadership need to create workplace environments that make it easy for our front-line staff to do the right thing and do their jobs. Innovation is a really big agenda item for the Minister. We know that, you know, with 20 District Health Boards, and Riana and I have been visiting, we've covered almost half of the districts around the country, and there are gems of innovation and improvement that we need to lift up and get much more quicker at spreading across the country. - So let's just talk about innovation and the disparate nature of the previous structure. I mean, doctors want one electronic patient management system. It seems crazy, in a population of five million, that we don't have that. - I agree. - Good. - And there are jurisdictions around the world with populations about our same size that have electronic patient record systems. It might take us some time, because we are going from a number of fragmented systems. Some regions have managed to do quite well in having them talk to each other, but not to the extent that we need for a country our size. - In terms of data and Maori, Riana, I mean, is that a real black` Sorry. Sorry. I'm really sorry I used that phrase. But a real gaping hole is what I'm trying to say there. Is there a system where Maori data is just not accessible? - I think that there's a lot of data, even for Maori. The problem is the health analytics or the analytics and intelligence we now have to apply to it. So making sure that we get that data, that we understand what it's telling us, and, actually, we do something about it. So, you know, that's going to be our big focus moving forward is that we don't just want to gather data; we want to be mindful that the data is telling us something and get on with the job. - Margie, you're a specialist in local solutions, previously ` hard-to-reach communities. Is that where your focus is going to be in service delivery, that's hyperlocal? - Yes. And it's about tailoring and having a diversity or a range of ways that we reach into local communities without having` We need the right balance of national and regional settings that are enabling those models. Every community is different, and so we need to be able to respond to that. - Can you do that? I mean, you're centralising everything, but you're proposing a decentralised delivery model. Can the two exist? - So, that's the trick for us. We need to centralise the right things that make it really efficient for us. So there are a number of things; for example, finance systems ` we don't need 20 of them. We need one across the country. There'll be a whole range of things. Data-digital we've just talked about. We don't need 20 different clinical systems ` we need maybe one, maybe four of some things. And what that will do is free up time and automate it, and what we're aiming for is to make it much more efficient for our front-line staff to get the tools they need to do that work on the front line. - Right. So we're talking about front-line staff, but we're also talking about remote provision here, Riana. Is that where you come in as an organisation? Are you the service buyer, the service provisioner for those remote services to tie in to Health New Zealand? - So, the Maori Health Authority will have both a commissioning and a co-commissioning function, as well as partner commissioning functions. So our aim is to make sure that, wherever our people are, we're going to get services closer to them. And I think you've heard quite a bit about this recently. We saw it during COVID ` mobile services that go back out into those rural and remote communities. There's actually a lot, like Margie says, that we could do if we were doing things smarter ` so using wearables, using innovation, using digital technology to make sure that when we send those mobile vans out there, they're kitted up with everything they need, as well as the workforce to be able to go to our people and not have them lining up outside clinics. Because at the moment we've got people waiting for hours on end, either inside primary care practices and/or ED, and we want to get our people out of there to take the pressure off the front line at ED. So we could do a lot more mobile-y, and this is something we can do fairly fast. - A mobile workforce. Mobile delivery. - That's right. And it's already happening. We saw it happening during COVID. I know that for most of the kaupapa Maori providers, they now have vans and services that can go further. They're out in car parks. They're doing drive-through settings. So let's just build up on some of that, because it'll take the pressure out of those other areas. - Margie, you're responsible for the other end, though ` the other end of the spectrum ` that is the specialists, the doctors and the nurses and the shortages that are being displayed all the time. I mean, how can you get those people on board reasonably quickly? Because it is urgent. We have people waiting more than four months ` it's double the wait time, four months ` for their first specialist appointment. - Mm. And, look, that's going to need much more collaboration across regions than we've ever had before. You know, every hospital runs their specialist services. Some have tried to build regional clinical networks, and what that does is help us have more greater visibility over what access a population across a region is having. So if we just take an example ` - Yup. - In a region ` I won't call them out, but in a region ` there'll be a couple of districts whose people will almost have to lose their licence before they get an ophthalmology or a cataract, and other districts in that same region are getting care earlier in their disease. And so we need to look at regions as a whole... - Right. So` - ...and share those resources across hospitals to get equity of access across the regions. - OK. So will the equity access come with the same amount of resources and same staff you have, or are you going to have to employ a lot more people? - We need to do a bit of both, um, but it takes time to grow doctors, and it takes time to bring our specialist services together to work. But certainly, the immediate opportunities we've got is to get regions working together. - Right. So you want to streamline the service. Let's talk about postcode lottery of health. That's what you're referring to there. Got an example which came to us. It's an anorexic child in Hamilton ` can't get specialist care in the eating disorder unit in Starship in Auckland because they're from a different DHB. What will change under you? - Well, certainly we have a number of national services like that, where we have very poor national planning to support the growth and growing a workforce for those specialist services. These are services that have a very, very small workforce, highly specialised, but what we've had to date is a very fragmented way of planning them. We've relied on DHBs or regions to do that. And, again, the opportunity of being a unified system is we can look at those services and be intentional about growing them for the country. - The Chair of Health New Zealand, Rob Campbell, has said that some of the new approach will be a shock internally and externally. What does he mean by that? - Well, we are a system that's` uh, before yesterday had 30 entities, from district health boards, shared services, subsidiary companies who've all worked with independent boards and focused on their very` their individual purpose. The shock for some` And, look, I want to acknowledge that there have been lots of efforts over time to try to work collaboratively, but actually sharing resources, having visibility of what each entity has ` that will be a shock to people, cos some people might realise that they may be less needy than others when they see other districts or other populations'... - Right. - ...need become more visible. - The Health Minister on this programme has said that it could mean bureaucracy is going to go. And so that means jobs, doesn't it? Is that what's going to happen? - We'd like to see` We've` We would, uh` We do want to see some efficiencies in the way that` Again... - So that's a yes, isn't it? - ...there are functions that we don't need to do 20 times that we'll bring them together and do them once for the country. - So when will you identify those? - What's the timeframe? - We're working through that with the people who have the expert knowledge at the moment. - Right. OK. Starship ` will that become a national service? - Starship already is a national service. So it does provide... - Already is a`? It already is. - ...some services. - So it does accept from the South Island already? - Yes. Yes. - OK. - There are some sp` very, very specialised areas. - And is that the model that you want? Where you have those regional` they're in the regions, but they are national services, whether they be in Auckland or Wellington or Christchurch? - Yes. And there are` there are national services that are provided by other district health boards. And, again, we've planned them in a very fragmented way, and we need to bring them together and look at how... - Right. - ...we can intentionally support those` the growth of those services. - Right. Let's talk funding. I'm not going to talk your funding ` you've got billions. You've got $168 million over four years to purchase Maori health services. Is that correct? - Um, no, because we have 350 million of existing contracts that we commission as well for the Kaupapa Maori providers. So collectively, there's about 535 million that the Maori Health Authority will be working with. - So was that additional in the budget, was it? - That was already existing contracts, yeah. - So the 168 million is additional to that over four years? - Yes, correct. - OK. So is that enough? All of it ` is that enough? - There's never enough money in health, but there's also not a never-ending pool of it either. So what we've got to do is get what we've got and start getting on with how we can be really effective, make the most impact. But I just want to caution too that there is also Health New Zealand, or Te Whatu Ora, and our job is to co-commission and reach into those spaces, because about 85% of the Maori population access services through Te Whatu Ora. And so our job is to make sure that we get in there and make sure that prioritisation, equity and that Te Tiriti focus is being worked on. - So, let me be really clear, Simon. - Yeah? - Um, the Maori Health Authority funding is in addition to the resource that Te Whatu Ora applies, because Maori access services across our whole system. And while it's not a tidy, elegant unbundling things for the Maori Health Authority, we have an accountability and a responsibility to deliver to Maori wherever they turn up in the system. - Right. So it's not going to be streamlined for` on ethnicity, which has been the common sort of, you know, allegation from some political parties. Is that right? - The` That` What`? - So` What I'm saying is that you're not going to separate health care based on race cos it's the Maori Health Authority? - No. - No. - We're going to prioritise where we see` And it's not just for Maori; for our Pacific population, for people with disabilities ` there are a whole range of communities that we need to prioritise and focus on at the same time. But the Maori Health Authority is a very deliberate Te Tiriti function that sees us in partnership, which means we've got to share... - I` - ...the services, share the putea and share the opportunity. - But, again, Maori turn up to pharmacy... - Yeah` - ...to general practice, - to community services and hospitals... - I understand that. So how` - ...so the whole system. - So how will it benefit someone who's Maori from turning up to a health care system under you guys? How is it gonna be different? - Well, we'd like to think that through the Maori Health Authority, they're going to have a choice to access care through the providers... - Yes. - ...and services that we strengthen and support and grow under the Maori Health Authority. But our job as Te Whatu Ora is to, um, grow the responsiveness and our ability to connect up that care and make it easier for Maori to access. And there are lots of opportunities for us to do that now. In fact, many of our providers and workforce are already sending us ideas on how they think we could do this better for their communities. - And our job is to monitor that that is happening... - Mm. - ...so that we can measure that accountability. So, you know, the Maori Health Authority is interesting, because we've got a commissioning function; we've got a co-commissioning function; we've got policy setting with` and partnership with Te Manatu Hauora... - Yeah. - ...and then we've got monitoring function. - So it sounds complicated. But you've got a monitoring function; how will you know that you are a success? - How` How will we know that we are a success is that we'll be able to see the data, we'll be able to see that Maori are being prioritised inside those systems to make sure that we can see that the outcome has been` You know, that's measur` It's always been measurable. - Mm. - So it's about making sure that we get in there, monitor for that success, and where we can see that we're not moving in the right direction, we have to be able to turn the waka around and get it moving. - Is there any chance that if the Ministry wants to monitor you in the same way that it monitors, say, Health New Zealand or the DHBs, that you could be pushed into sort of like a Pakeha format of health? - Um, I-I wouldn't know how to answer that. I just know that from our` our point of view, we have a direct whakapapa up to` being built from the ground up from a very Ao Maori focus. We've got Ao Maori solutions, and we've been really intentional about that. So I don't believe we'll be pushed into, um, anything. However, it would be fair to say that we're here in a partnership. We're here` You know, we live in this country, and Te Tiri` We're Tangata Te Tiriti, and then we're tangata whenua. Those are the two kind of areas that we fall into. Our job is to make sure that tangata whenua have better services today, tomorrow and` you know` - OK. - I think one of the opportunities we've got, Simon, is... we` we're set up with different settings as` under the old district health boards. We've got a` The Government has created an environment where we can be much more flexible about the way we use funding ` including, you know, moving providers from 80 different service specifications... - OK. - ...to one that serves the whanau. Um, looking at how we can get into relationships... - Right. So you` - ...that have a longer tenure... - Yeah. - ...so providers have time and can have confidence to invest in their organisations. - So` OK. Just quickly, before we go ` do you feel the political pressure in these` taking up these appointments? Because it's a political hot potato. Margie? It's` - You go first. - It's political, but it's actually also the expectations of our workforce and our staff and our communities, who are really hungry to see some change. So on balance, we're here to serve all those stakeholders but, importantly, our communities, to see a difference. - Riana? - Yeah, and` and I` My intention here, or our aspiration, is to make sure that our mokopuna inherit a better system than we did. And so, there'll always be political pressures, but the pressure I feel mostly is to make a difference for our people, to make sure that` you know, that we have lives that are full of, you know, opportunity for good jobs, for better housing; to make sure that we partner up with all of those sectors that affect those` those kind of areas that actually really improve health. - All right. - So there's some transitional stuff, and then there's some transformational stuff, but we're on the` you know, we've made the right start. - And everybody will be watching you very closely. - Very. - Thank you very much for your time today, Margie Apa from Health New Zealand and, uh, Riana Manuel from the Maori Health Authority ` the new Maori Health Authority. - Can we just put a little bit of a tag out there to make sure everybody under` knows our new names as well? - Yep. - Te Whatu Ora for Health New Zealand and Te Aka Whai Ora for the Maori Health Authority. - Kia ora. Thanks for your time. - Kia ora. - Right. Well, if you've got a news tip, please get in touch ` we're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram; or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz E whai ake nei ` there'll be no shortage of opinions from our political panellists, Patrick Gower, Shane Jones and Maria Slade. And Green Foreign Affairs and Trade Spokesperson Golriz Ghahraman critiques the PM's trip to Europe. This week, the Prime Minister secured a free trade deal with the EU worth $1.5 billion annually, ending four years of tough negotiations. The deal comes off the back of a trip to Madrid, where Ardern was the first New Zealand leader invited to speak at the NATO leaders meeting ` a speech that did not go unnoticed by China. Joining me now to talk about the fast-changing diplomatic landscape is Green Party's spokesperson on foreign affairs and trade, Golriz Ghahraman. Thank you for coming in. - Morena. - Let's talk trade first, in your old trade. Is it a relief to finally see a trade deal signed with the EU that has binding climate targets? - Well, we haven't seen the text of the deal, and it hasn't been signed, but we have an agreement. It's a huge relief to see climate targets recognised in trade. We know that trade impacts our ability to meet those targets in every way. - Yeah. - You know, there'll be fisheries, there's dairy, there's all sorts of chapters in this deal, and as in every free trade deal, that impacts the climate. - Sure. OK. So you just mentioned dairy and meat. They didn't get what they wanted. Is that a failure of this particular deal? - We're hearing a lot from the meat side of the industries that they haven't gotten what they needed or wanted. We don't quite know what the agreement, again, looks like, but I mean, from our perspective, the real win is that we have an understanding in this trade deal that everything is interconnected and our climate targets should be protected while we talk about dairy and meat. (LAUGHS) - Right. OK. I understand that. But dairy and meat, obviously, huge exporters, backbone or bedrock, as Damien O'Connor said, of our economy. Should they have pushed harder for concessions for them? - I'm sure they pushed pretty hard. - From a Green perspective, you wouldn't really want that, because, you know, you want to see dairy reducing. - What we would like to see is a recognition that New Zealand has a lot more to offer and that our economy, in fact, needs to transition to a sustainable economy. So those` The brain side of our economy, the digi side, the kind of number eight wire stuff that New Zealand's really good at, could have a bit more focus and attention and take us into the next century. - Rather than commodities. OK, let's talk diplomatic relations and NATO. The prime minister made a speech. She was critical of China's assertiveness. Is she moving us away from our largest trading partner? - Well, New Zealand's always done best when we stand as an independent, principled voice on the world stage. My concern would be that, with the war in Ukraine, we're kind of going backwards into those old Cold War allegiances rather than focusing on Asia-Pacific. - OK. - It's OK to have those connections with Europe. We have to have them. We have to have our connections with the US and the like, as well as China. But NATO is a military alliance. So we're kind of` we are really going back into that old world thinking. - Old world thinking, isn't that just the current world of thinking, but it just gets brushed over? We already are Five Eyes members. We have alliances. - We shouldn't be. (CHUCKLES) - Well OK. So you don't want us that aligned with, like, NATO, Europe and the US? - Aligned is one thing. But I think once we start to appear on the stage at a NATO summit, we have to ask ourselves what allegiances we're undermining as well. And we are a Pacific nation. We're in Asia-Pacific nation. It's OK to be in contact with NATO because there is a war happening in Ukraine that impacts us. - Yes. - But there's a meeting happening with the, um,... with our Commonwealth partners as well right now that the prime minister's not at. So there's choices we're making. - Should she have gone to the Commonwealth meeting instead of going to NATO? - I think it's important to have conversations about whether we want to be part of a military allegiance or a diplomatic one. And that's the question when it comes to NATO. - So in the Green world view, it's not an allegiance with, say, the US; it's not allegiance with China or Europe. It's specific focused? - It's specific focus, and it's military focused. And I think, in part, our response to the Ukraine war has been more militarised than the Green Party would have liked it to be. The focus on the humanitarian relief would have been stronger. - We're not joining NATO, and Helen Clark said you can have an independent foreign policy and still be aligned with somebody. - Yeah, that's right. But we do have to then weigh that up against what other relationships we're upholding or undermining. - We're a small nation just aligning ourselves with Pacific nations. Surely that just leaves us out in the cold when the big players are doing their thing. - We can't` No, we can't just align ourselves with one or the other. I think it's about that maintenance of our independence. So NATO, again, is a military forum. We also have the United Nations; we have our ASEAN allegiances in our region; we have the Pacific Forums here. So there are other forums. It's the prioritisation of a militarised European old world focus. - Right. - That is a concern for us. - And so you're concerned that we're joining sort of proxy war between Russia and the US and Ukraine? - Well, I think what's happened` We have, actually, because we have` you know, and that happened without much debate at all. We have actually sent military aid. So we are part of a war. - But we are supporting Ukraine's right to sovereignty. - Yes. And we have to ask ourselves, how best do we do that? So there are millions displaced. Are we better to be working out those aid corridors as an independent state that can negotiate them? Or are we better to become part of a war effort that then means we don't have those access points? It's a value judgement that the Government has made. But I think part of what we're talking about here is, actually, that fear of China becoming more prominent in our region. So that's the big elephant in the room. And whether we focus on empowering Pacific nations to be less dependent on aid by the big powers... - Right. - ...or whether we take sides is what's at stake. - Golriz Ghahraman from the Green Party, thank you so much for your time. - Thank you. - All right. Up next ` our political panel, Patrick Gower, Shane Jones and Maria Slade. Plus ` our firefighters are defying their employer Fire And Emergency New Zealand. But could a circuit breaker be imminent? I'm joined now by our panel ` Newshub Nation's` Not Newshub Nation's, Newshub National Correspondent. You should be with us, Patrick Gower. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Used to be. - Former New Zealand First MP Shane Jones. Welcome back to the show. Kia ora. And senior National Business Review journalist Maria Slade. - Good morning. - Good morning. Thanks for coming on to the program. All right, let's talk health. What did you think of the two CEOs who are tasked with overhauling our health system, Paddy? - I thought they were fantastic. That was a fresh, new face for health that I hadn't seen before. I actually hadn't seen either them before at all, let alone talk. And regardless of what happens in the future, whether it turns out to be a gigantic bureaucratic morass that can't deliver or not, what we saw today was a fresh face, a fantastic new face and new ideas. And I'm actually` I'll tell you what, when I saw the end of the DHBs, I said one word ` hallelujah. - (LAUGHS) - And I kind of doubled down on that today when I saw those two new leaders. - Shane Jones, was Riana clear about how the Maori Health Authority is going to` - No, no, no, and we shouldn't expect her to be. It's a big transition they're going through. What they've got to do is step away from this cosmic sort of language that's in their document. Their document says that they've got a 16-point wind compass. (LAUGHTER) Now, I don't know what that means. - I haven't read that. - But I'm telling you that's what it says. Maoridom has got to step away, and she must abandon that cultural filigree and get down to the brass tacks, because there is a crisis out there... - Yeah. - ...in mental health with our rangatahi, and look, people presenting far too late to the health system. So I would say to her, make that your focus and stop borrowing terms from Te Papa. (LAUGHTER) - Maria, it seemed to be that the first priority for Margie Apa was to streamline everything. So we're not talking about extra resources that she probably can't find, because the doctors aren't being trained, but she's saying that the resources that they need are going to be streamlined. - Yeah. - That seems to be the key. - The coordination that is obvious between the two of them already is heartening, because I came across an example just this past week, a story that I've been working on that will be published early next week, regarding the psychology services. We're short something like 1000 psychologists in this country, and I was amazed to discover there was no central coordination of the internships that they must do in order to become registered psychologists. It's all very piecemeal by DHB or by the ACC who fund some of the private placements, etc. - Right. - And so the courses, there'd be something like 80 psychologists coming out of university, only about 20 of them getting into the professional placements that they require. There's no shortage of people that want to be psychologists, but... - It's just the... - ...there is a complete bottleneck in terms of the professional training, and that is a coordination issue. - Who would want that job? I mean, would you want Margie's job? Uh, no? - It's huge. - It's huge, isn't it? - Yeah, it is. It is massive. - But, you know, someone's got to take it on. - Right. - And I think, you know, these examples that we saw there, they talked about postcode lottery. We know about a bit through cancer. They talk about ophthalmology, people who can't get cataract surgery in this country. That is Third World stuff. It's a terrible job. Someone's got to take it on, and a co-ordinated, streamlined whatever ` that's what we need. - There's no shortage of examples of failure. I recall when we originally set up the government, we had the measles rollout for vaccination and what was an absolute dog's breakfast. And Paddy's right. There's no shortage of problems, but it's got to have a laser forensic focus on what actually works and strip away the consultants and ensure that the bureaucracy does not triumph over the political architects of the policy. - OK. Speaking politics, are some of Labour's fortunes in 2023 riding on this, Maria? - Well, yes. I mean, obviously they're the architects of it, so it's got to start working. But the trouble is, we've got an election next year. This is going to take a decade... - Yeah, that's right. - ...to bed in. So I don't know that we're going to see any kind of miraculous results out of this restructure in the next 12 months. - OK. - I'm going to move on to some national and related politics that sort of made headlines. National, the party, made headlines this week over its MPs' stances on abortion, particularly Simon O'Connor. Well, is that going to cost them, Paddy? - Yeah, I think it is. I mean, if you look at Christopher Luxon` I mean, let's look at the election that's coming up. You've got a drag race between the centre-right and a drag and the centre-left on the other side. There is one way to win that kind of election ` It's with the centre voter. And particularly with the female centre voter. The worst possible thing that you could have in that situation is a leader that wants to control their bodies or criminalise them. It is actually terrible for Christopher Luxon. If I was him, I would lie awake at night worried about it. - Did he act quick enough, Maria, on Simon O'Connor's post, which celebrated the Roe V Wade? - He did what he had to do. He had to come out and make that statement. But I think that a lot of women are just going to be a little bit suspicious of him. We know he's pro-life, for want of a better way of putting it. - Yeah. - You know, he assures us he won't change the law or make any attempt to change the law while he's prime minister. But we don't know what he might do. It's not a big issue for New Zealand. There isn't a groundswell, I don't think, of people who want a law change. But, yeah, I think there is just a general feeling of unease, particularly among women, about what he might do. - And I'll tell you something else I saw from him this week is this bizarre waffle. He waffles. And it's a cross between political waffle, which we see a lot of from Jacinda Ardern, but he's got this corporate waffle as well. And you know, I've never seen someone talk so much. The guy voted to keep abortion criminalised. That's the end of it. And as for Simon O'Connor, he looked weak on that. I mean, he believes in it. Simon O'Connor actually has more honour and integrity in some ways. I completely disagree with his views, but at least he stands up for it and comes out and says it. This guy, Christopher Luxon, is all over the show. - But` And, Shane Jones, on this, Luxon is not the only one walking a tightrope on this, because Nanaia Mahuta called the US decision 'draconian', but she voted against legalising abortion. - These are conscience issues. - Yeah. - And we've got to stop cancelling people in Parliament who exercise their judgement of conscience. I voted the same way as Nanaia that it should go to a referendum, and when I'm in Parliament, I deeply resent this cancel culture telling me that my conscience can't be exercised. - Yeah, but what you've got is a situation where Chris Luxon cancelled someone for having the same view as him. That's not leadership. - But that's my point. - That's not leadership. - But he is undermining a key tenant of parliamentary life ` Your conscience. If you don't like my conscience, vote me out. Sadly, you did. - (LAUGHS) OK, Speaker 2023. Sorry, Shane, I'm going to move on. So does that mean you want to stand again for New Zealand First? I've got to ask you that while you're here. - Yeah, well, we're having our meeting later in the year. - Yep. - The AGM, and decisions, no doubt, will be announced around about that time. - And what about the rumours that you've been having chats to other minor parties to plan for next election? - Um, that was written up by Trevor Mallard's wife, Jane Clifton, and she is a very able and incisive writer, but there she got that horribly wrong. - You know, I look at Shane Jones, and the last time that I was on this programme over five years ago, actually over 200 shows was the last time that I was sort of sitting in here. This guy was in the Labour Party back then. (LAUGHS) This guy was in the Labour Party back then. - Suffering David Cunliffe. - You know, but the thing is, if Shane Jones wants to get back into politics, New Zealand First is not the way to go. You know, a lot of journalists, and I used to do this, saying, 'Oh, you know, you can't rule out Winston.' You can rule out Winston. He will not make it back. - So, Paddy... - Mark my words. - ...are you cancelling Shane Jones here? - No, I'm telling Shane Jones if he wants get back into Parliament, he needs to go through the Maori Party. He needs to repent on a lot of the things that he's said... - (LAUGHS) - ...and start siding up to John Tamihere. - The last time I saw Paddy, he was larger than he is, and he's lost a lot of weight. (LAUGHTER) And in the loss of his weight, his brain has shrunk. - Oh, OK. All right. Can I just ask this, though? We did a poll in Tauranga, just quickly, just recently, and in that, Sue Grey from the Outdoors and Action Party` Action and Outdoors Party, 4.7% in Tauranga. (CLEARS THROAT) Do you think, Shane Jones, that and anti-mandate party is going to get anywhere in the next election? - Oh look, I think there's a vote out there that is swirling around, and it resents what happened through COVID, but whether or not Sue and her crowd can pull that together, I have deep doubts about that. But I do believe that on issues to do with co-governance, on issues to do with overreach, in relation to cancel culture and elements of that nature, there's a market that can be tapped into. - Yeah, there's a market, and it's about it's 4% max, and that's not enough for New Zealand. - The actual poll that we did said 20% of voters, Maria, would actually consider voting for an anti-mandate party. - What I'm a bit more interested in, actually, as an Aucklander, particularly living in the prime minister's electorate, is to see how Labour does following four months of lockdown in Auckland last year. That has all` they have now admitted was unnecessary, which we all knew was unnecessary at the time. I think there are a lot of Aucklanders who are changing their view about the current government as a result. - 100%. - You know, it really felt like they locked up Auckland and threw away the key. - Well, they did. - OK. Some and some people in the rest of the country say that's a good thing, but that's for another time. Thanks very much, Shane Jones, Maria Slade and Paddy Gower. - Thank you, Simon. - Thank you. - E whai ake nei ` as the government reviews genetic modification rules, GE-Free New Zealand tries to convince us that they are not the way forward. Plus ` is poor management in our fire service putting lives at risk? A special report from the front line. Our firefighters are defying their employer, Fire and Emergency New Zealand, running a high-profile campaign alleging that bad management and understaffing will soon cost lives. With talks deadlocked, Newshub Nation can reveal an independent mediator is being brought in. But for the moment, the strike action continues. We're on board the busiest fire truck from the busiest station, Auckland City. It's a morning filled with the most common call-out ` the fire alarm. - Received as a false alarm. But in this particular case, it was somebody cooking in the room. - Each one has to be treated like a fire just in case. - It's a confirmed fire until proven otherwise, yeah. - Auckland City is mainly staffed by long-term career firefighters. Sulu Devoe is a senior station officer with 44 years experience and president of the union's Auckland branch. - Well, there are fewer firefighters now than when I started. As an example, we used to have 21 ` 17 firefighters in here and four officers ` at City Central Fire Station. Now we're down to 10. - National figures obtained by Newshub Nation show career firefighter numbers are the same as 20 years ago. In 2002, there were 1680 career firefighters. That did increase, then dropped. As of June this year, there were 1678. The minimum number needed is 1730. Over the same period, New Zealand's population has increased by 28%. Ron Devlin is the manager for the Te Hiku region, which includes Northland and Auckland. Do you have enough career firefighters in Auckland? - We have 600 career firefighters in Auckland. - Do you have 600? - Yeah, 600 career firefighters in Auckland ` or just under. - Numbers provided to the union via the Official Information Act show Auckland staff should be at 547, and, in May, there were 522. So, 522 in May. - Yep. - Is that enough? - It should be enough to get by. I would suggest that the 522 in May was probably affected by the fact that we have a number of people off on the mandatory vaccinations. We have a number of people who are off on COVID leave and other such things. - The union claims staffing is so dire, stations like Onehunga and Parnell haven't been able to staff their trucks. - I've been in this job for 44 years, since the late 1970s. I have never, in that 44 years, seen fire stations shut down because of a lack of staff until this year. - One of the stations was covered from another district where we` - But that leaves that district uncovered, doesn't it? - Yeah, but there was the capacity to do that. Again, we've got a network of stations, and we can move appliances around to make sure that things are covered. - Firefighters also claim some staff are working up to 100 hours a week to plug the gaps. Newshub Nation has seen recent Saturday rosters for 11 Auckland Central stations. On June 18th, 56 people should have been on the daytime shift, But two stations ` Onehunga and Parnell ` had no staff, and of the 48 staff members rostered on, 14 were working overtime. Then, last weekend, June 25th, the Remuera and Onehunga trucks were not on the road. Of the 48 firefighters working, 24 were doing overtime ` 50% of the staff. FENZ admits that's too much. but, in a twist, claims when it tried to recruit more firefighters than the minimum staffing needed, known as the establishment level, the union wasn't happy. - Just a year ago, you know, when we were recruiting, sort of recruiting above establishment, to maintain establishment, that was not a popular decision of mine. - Right. So the union didn't want you to? - At that time. - Didn't want you to add numbers. Didn't want you to` - To hire above establishment. - And did they say why they didn't? - Um... We didn't really go into the detail of it, but I think, you know, if you can work it out, I guess it comes back down to the fact that, you know, overtime levels. - The Auckland union rejects any implication it did not want numbers increased, says overtime was never discussed, and that Ron Devlin was not part of the discussions. Far from the central city drama, near the beautiful beaches of Hibiscus Coast, north of Auckland, there's a different staffing issue. Where there was once farmland, there is now urban intensification. - So we go up to Hatfields Beach... - Former Black Fern, now Silverdale firefighter, Becky Wood says she is a lot busier now. - (SCOFFS) When there's a call-out, I probably` maybe a quarter of the time know where we're going. There's just` The growth in the area is just huge. It's insane. - With a population of 62,000, the area is served by two fire stations ` one run by volunteers, the other a mix of career firefighters on weekdays, with volunteers on a second truck, which also covers evenings and weekends. By comparison, Whanganui has a population of 45,000, and its fire station is crewed 24-7. Two weeks ago, this house burnt down at the end of Whangaparaoa Peninsula. Neighbour Roy McFarlane called it in. - Well, we found ourselves sitting here after the power lines came down, waiting for the fire brigade, thinking, 'What the heck? They're in Manly ` what's taking them so long?' Waiting, waiting ` like, 'Where are the fire brigade?' So, yes, it was a very long response time. - The nearest fire station at Manly is 6km away. It's crewed by volunteers, and it took them 27 minutes to get there. The career crew in Silverdale is usually 20 minutes away. By chance, they were nearby and got there in 12. But the goal is to arrive in eight. What's it like, as a career firefighter, knowing that when you go home, that's it for the area, there's no more career firefighters here? - It's a concern. I live in this area and, you know, the volunteers do the best that they can, but they can't always turn out. - This is not about whether the volunteer firefighters are doing a good job ` remember, they do it for free and they have to turn out from home or from work. It's about whether the level of resources in Hibiscus Coast actually meets the needs of a growing population. - I think what you've gotta understand when it comes to managing fire risk the population, albeit a small driver, is just one of the drivers. Risk is, kind of, I guess, assessed based on a number of different layers ` population being one of them, but it's just one of the small aspects. - So is there any plan to review the Hibiscus Coast? - Not immediately. - Fire and Emergency is funded through insurance levies on your car, house and property. Hibiscus Coast raises about $6.3 million in levies each year. The total budget for Silverdale and Manly fire stations in 2021 was $744,000. - The whole part of being a national organisation is to build a` smooth that out across the country, so that you get an equitable service right across New Zealand. The risk, as assessed at the moment, in the Hibiscus Coast, what we have got there, the resourcing that we have got there is adequate to manage the risk that it's in. - There are two very different pictures being painted. FENZ says the public is not at risk. Response times and targets are being met both in Hibiscus Coast and in Auckland. Front-line firefighters don't buy it. - There's just no direction. There's no leadership. And it's at a point where we don't want to stand here and yell this out from the rooftops, because that's not what we're about, but, you know, communities have been short-changed, full stop. - Former all-Black Steve Devine loved being part of a rugby team, and that's why he wants to join a team, serving the community as a firefighter. But he is speaking out because he is worried. - Whatever we do, we're just` we're right on the brink, and I don't think it should take a death from someone in the community for some things to change. - Maybe something will break the deadlock ` a third party has been brought in to mediate between FENZ and the union, and there's a hint about staff numbers. - Both the union and Fire and Emergency have agreed that there's gotta be a discussion on what that staffing model looks like, the ratio, what it looks like going forward. - Right. Does that mean more firefighters? - I don't really want to get too far into that. If you're going to change the staffing ratios, that is how many people you need to staff for fire plans, then I would suggest that it would seem to me that it probably would alter the numbers. - But the industrial action is not just about staff numbers ` there are many other claims. But, for now, firefighters are still turning up to every call, even to the cat that's fallen six floors from an apartment. It doesn't want to be rescued. Firefighters say they deserve to be. All right. Stay with us. We'll be back after the break. but only in the health sector. This has disappointed some Kiwi scientists, who argue we must embrace gene technology in food production to fight back on climate change. Here are some highlights from that story. - The government is tiptoeing towards a line New Zealand previously said it wouldn't cross. - WOMAN: We want to be... - CROWD: GE-free! - We are looking at some of the regulatory settings around biomedical research and laboratory research ` are a bit outdated. - Fighting back on climate change requires technology. Gene editing is revolutionary for plant biology. - We're not changing the rules that would relate to the release of a genetically modified organism into the environment ` for example, a plant or an animal. - I struggle with... not being able to have the impact for New Zealand that we all desperately want to have. - I think we do need to have an intelligent conversation based on science and evidence and not based on emotion. - FINN HOGAN: But Greenpeace says genetic modification is no planet-saving silver bullet. - The dairy industry right now use science and technology as an excuse for not doing what the science tells us we need to do, which is lower dairy cow stocking rates and phase out synthetic nitrogen fertiliser. - Well, one person who believes we should go no further in deregulating gene technologies is Jon Carapiet from GE-Free New Zealand. He sat down with reporter Finn Hogan, who asked why New Zealand must remain GE-free. - New Zealand should stay GE-free. In terms of our food and environment is` that's part of our brand identity in the world. we've been well served by the rules` the strict regu` uh, regulate genetic engineering in New Zealand. - The technology has come a long way since the protests in the '90s and since the Royal Commission. Have your views changed because of the advances in technology? - Well, my views have changed because we know more. CRISPR, which is one of the new forms of gene editing ` that was developed around 2012, which is only 10 years ago. So we're talking about really powerful technology that is not that old. - CRISPR, as you mentioned, is a radically more advanced technology than traditional forms of GMO. If CRISPR can be used to just mimic selective breeding, why should we regulate it so strictly? - The scientific debate is about exactly how` how close to nature it is. Now, the reality is ` and there's lots of reports coming out; even the early versions that have come out of America ` like the hornless cows, which were a particular kind of gene editing ` they've discovered some mistakes after they launched it. - So, Peter Gluckman, one of our most esteemed scientists, says the science is as settled as it will ever be and this is safe. - And` And I would debate with Dr Gluckman about that. He actually was quoted as saying, yeah, that the science has proven that genetic engineering and GMOs are safe. Well, safe for what? Safe where? You have to look at each case by case. And I think to make blanket claims of safety, even for CRISPR, is absolutely wrong. - But by your own admission, you're not a scientist. - Mm-hm. - We have the Chief Science Advisor, the Productivity Commission and the Climate Commission all united saying this is an area we need to revisit. Why should people listen to you and not them? - Well, I guess revisiting the topic is not an unreasonable thing to do. In America, having been deregulated for many years ` and as I've said, CRISPR was developed in 2012 ` there's only been a couple of products launched on to the market, and as I say, some of those have had problems. So even in the most deregulated market, claims of these solutions, claims that these opportunities to actually make authentic change ` for example, climate change ` haven't been delivered. And the same` - But we see it` In the UK, we see tomatoes that are enriched with vitamin D to address vitamin D deficiency; in Japan, we see snapper that takes less resources from the environment and is available in fish markets now. Those innovations exist. - Well, they exist, but also there's several alternatives. - So what evidence are you working from that says our international brand and our trade would be really damaged by deregulation? - Well, I'm looking at the actual consumer response to... consumer response to Lewis Road Creamery. When they started to export our milk to America, um, the head of the company told me the first thing that they were asked was, 'Is it non-GMO?' - If we look internationally, as I say, our major trading partners are all moving, at least in part, to embrace some gene-editing tech. Are you fighting a losing battle here, and are we going to be left behind? - Well, I think it's a battle for a vision of our relationship with food and nature and the environment, and I think that the battle for New Zealand is to maintain our point of difference. We trade on being different from America, on being` Europeans don't use GMOs either, but that's why we export to the European consumers as well. And Japa` the Japanese consumer would be very against GMOs. - They have gene-edited fish in their markets. - Yes. How many are buying them? How many people know about them? - Well, it's brought it's brought to market and it's commercially viable, so someone's buying them. - Yeah. Well, you know, so` That's a choice. But unless you have regulation and labelling and traceability, that choice is removed. And I go back to the fundamental right of consumers to not have things done to them or the environment, to have liability assigned to these very powerful technologies. So regulation of that really powerful technology is really necessary at any level. And for New Zealand, I'd say protecting our GE-free food, our organic production, our exports and our natural environment has to be a priority. - Jon Carapiet there. We're back now with our panel. Patrick Gower, Shane Jones, Maria Slade, thanks again for your time. GMOs ` is it time for another debate in New Zealand, or is it an untouchable topic, sort of like our nuclear-free stance? Shane? - Hmm. No, no. It's not so tapu that we can't readdress it. I get the impression that we're talking about science and debates that really (SIGHS) are 15, 20 years old now. And, look, I'm not a great believer in all of this catastrophisation ` are we going to ruin international markets? 20 billion of our dairy and primary sector goes to China. - Mm. - And unless` And basically, the Chinese want to know, 'OK, is it clean? Is there sanitation? I've never encountered great debates from that largest market... - Right. - ...about the dangers of GMO, and I'm sure in China they're doing it themselves. - (CHUCKLES) - CHUCKLES: Yeah. - Maria, are we relying too heavily on this idea of being 100% pure? - Yeah, I think the Government` the Minister ` I heard him commenting on that, and Jon Carapiet ` are sort of wanting to have a quid each way by saying that, you know, we need to preserve our international reputation. We've developed a whole space industry on the back of what Rocket Lab are doing, and the payloads that they send up into space are ` you know, let's face it ` military adjacent. - Yeah. - And nobody seems to get excited about what that's doing to New Zealand's reputation. They are lauded as the heroes of developing this whole sector. - Uh, yeah ` Paddy, is it untouchable, or we should be having this debate? - It's looking increasingly antiquated. There are things that we can use GMO for to` for instance, fight climate change. We've gotta` We've gotta move on. - Yeah. OK. Let's move on our topics. This is a short period of time. Prime Minister has been at NATO, Paddy. Is it a sign that we're moving closer to that alliance? - Yes, it is. It's a sign that we're virtually in it. We're moving closer every day, and this is a giant step closer. - Yeah. - Um... You know, Shane Jones is agreeing with me here... - Mm. - (CHUCKLES) Does that make you uncomfortable, does it? - ...and you know, we're` No. No, we're virtually in NATO. - Yeah. - You know we're adjacent to NATO. - Well, they say that we're a partner, not a member. - Yeah. I mean, I've never seen anything like it in my lifetime, covering politics in New Zealand ` us this close. You know, I came in after ANZUS and everything. We're heading back. And it's scary, you know, not just from what could happen to the world; but, you know, Shane's mentioned before ` $20 billion worth of exports to China. - Well, that's right. - What happens if that`? That is the clear and present danger to New Zealand, in my mind ` - Yeah. - if China starts to react by slowing down our trade with them. - Well, that's right. So, the PM was quite assertive about China` - She was. - ...well, calling them assertive in her speech. Is that a real risk to that $20 billion? - Look, I mean, it would've been a carefully calculated statement, and China, obviously, fired back, but they've said worse. So... - (LAUGHS) - You know, um, I` That would've been weighed up. I don't know. Is it just not pragmatism? You know, has the war in Ukraine changed the way we look at the world? The threats have changed. - Do you think that, Shane? Is this just normal` the normal argy-bargy of diplomacy? - No, I'm with Paddy. Without a doubt, the Prime Minister, without a mandate or a national conversation with the Kiwis, has decided that NATO and US security concerns are of greater significance than our trade. She has no mandate to do that. Going around the world, taking pot shots at China is speaking to a New Zealand voting base who recently in the Asia Foundation said they're more leery about China. So I think her and Nanaia are basically` - It's calculated? - No, what they're do` Yeah, they're calculated. They're reprising Phil Twyford's Chinese-sounding-names-out-of-the- telephone-book stunt. - (LAUGHS) Um, did... She` The Prime Minister was also over there signing the EU trade deal. Like` So, you know, something's good; something's not so good for the dairy and meat. But, Maria, are we rushing towards signing those deals because we might be, sort of, you know, annoying China too much? - Well, yeah, that will be a component, because we do need to diversify. We, you know, basically package up all our milk powder and ship it up to China. - Mm. - But` And the fact that they rolled the Prime Minister out... - Yeah. - ...for that deal ` I mean, that wouldn't normally be the Prime Minister's role. - Well, that's right ` it's Damien O'Connor's role, isn't it? Yeah. - Yes, exactly. So she's come in to be the, sort of, show pony at the finish. - I mean, this is hugely powerful political symbolism to actually sign the deal, sidle up to NATO and name China in that speech. - Yeah. - I'm telling you right now ` what happens if China reacts? We've seen what they can do before. The meat doesn't start getting into the ports ` that's one kind of little way they can do things. But if they slow down trade ` not just with us; imagine if they do it simultaneously with Australia as well and put the brakes on the money coming into this part of the world ` it's very dangerous territory. I'm not saying it's wrong. She is the Prime Minister of New Zealand. She is allowed to set our foreign policy. The tectonic plates of geopolitics are moving, and we have moved. We are now back with America, Western Europe and Britain, and we are increasingly ending up against China` - But are we`? Is it just the alliances that we've always had, they've been buried under the trade ` sort of, you know, cream parfait at the top ` and it's just rising to the surface? - Well, we've always had this heritage, over the last 30 years, of independent, non-aligned foreign policy. Now, some will say that was a pipe dream. What the Prime Minister has done ` and she has decided to bait and prod panda. And she needs to be very careful that she doesn't turn into a... well, essentially, someone who's antagonistic on a regular basis against our greatest trading partner. Get a mandate from New Zealand before you do that. - OK. - Yeah. And I'm not` I'm not I'm not saying you're wrong to call it cream parfait, but it's actually our economy, you know. - Oh, yeah. - And I'm not saying the Prime Minister's wrong either. Shane's suddenly coming across like he's cuddling up` wants to cuddle up to the panda. I think you should... - (SIMON, MARIA LAUGH) - ...go and talk to Winston about this. - All right. - Cos he made a career on the other side, mate. - We're` We're going` - Winston was the biggest panda-poker there's ever been, so what's happening there? - (LAUGHS) OK. All right` - We need the putea to pay our bills. - OK, we need the putea, and China could be the putea for the moment until we get all these deals done ` and we are done now too. Thanks very much. - CHUCKLES: Yeah. - (CHUCKLES) Shane Jones, Maria Slade, Shane Jones ` thanks for your time. - Awesome. - And that is all from us for now. Thank you so much for watching ` nga mihi nui. We'll see you again next weekend. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - This show was brought to you by the New Zealand On Air Public Interest Journalism Fund.