Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 Tonight on Sunday ` how one doctor's mistake changed the course of an entire life. - So, are we filming now, or...? - Yes. - Right, time to behave. He's cheeky and charming. - I can act like an adult. I find it too boring. Way, way too boring. - But he's also furious. - The most evil thing has just happened to me. I had everything taken away, and he gets away with it scot free. - Now he wants justice. - I trusted a doctor, because, you know, why would I not trust a doctor? - It's about accountability. - And the unintended consequences of a smoke-free future. - For people who are otherwise going to smoke, vaping is a revelation. - Use of e-cigarettes in that younger age group isn't about giving up smoking. It's about a completely new habit. Are we creating a new generation of addicts? - They just love the flavour, I reckon. And then the nicotine gets them addicted, and they just can't stop. - What she's saying is that at 16 years old, I have an addiction. - And is smoke-free really smoke-free? - How involved is big tobacco in the vaping industry? - Big tobacco is in the thick of it. - Kia ora, I'm Miriama Kamo. A simple life was Josh Linder's only wish. He was happy with his job at Farmers and his passion for Warhammer, a game using miniature figures that Josh would build. It's a war game, but Josh was to find himself in a war of his own. A routine doctor's appointment changed the course of his life in the most dramatic and ultimately tragic way. This cheeky, wisecracking personality became angry and disillusioned. Last month, Josh and his family asked our reporter Tania Page to help him tell his story. (BROODING MUSIC) It's dawn, still dark. Invercargill is just waking up. - I like Invercargill because it's nice, quiet. It was lovely. It was my world. A city flickering into life. - (SCANNER BEEPS) - Yep. That's the right price. I don't think there's a single person in this whole building that doesn't love Josh. - Josh Linder worked here for 10 years, part of the furniture. - Yeah, Farmers was a lot of fun. - He started in our menswear department and would fit out guys in suits. Because he was always immaculately presented. Immaculately. - Jan Burns was his manager. - He is an absolute character. He will joke around with you. He's got a very dark sense of humour at times. - Funny and... On a Friday, he'd go to the shop and buy a heap of lollies for the girls and there'd be a bag of Pineapple Lumps on my desk. (LAUGHS) - So thoughtful. - Yeah, very thoughtful. He is a very thoughtful young man. And we wish that he was still part of our team. - I used to dress in just pure suits, just... just for the hell of it, you know? It was my thing. Trying to get a suit on now is just... nah. - Hi. - Hey, Josh. - Yeah, not bad today. OK. Can I help in any way? We've really turned the weather on for you. - That they have. - Yeah. - That's Invercargill. - Yeah. Good to meet you. - Yeah. - All right, let's get inside, eh? 'From three-piece suits to dressing gowns every day.' It's been like this all day as well. A bit miserable. It's a lot warmer in here. - Do you want to comb it? Do you want me to comb it? - I'll let you, since you can get more reach-around, unlike my arm. - Like a personal assistant, Rebekah. - Yeah, that's me, eh. - Rebekah is his cousin. - How does this even happen? He shouldn't be stuck sitting in a chair at the moment, wrapped up in a blanket, just trying to get through the day. - CAMERAMAN: Perfect. - So, are we filming now, or...? - Yes. - Right, time to behave. - And this is his story. Why did Josh go to the doctor? - Because he had a mole that needed to be looked at. - Pretty much went in, lifted my shirt and just immediately went, 'Is this cancer?' - That was in 2019. His aunt Eileen says it was Josh's first time going to the doctor by himself. - So, Josh, has ASD. He was diagnosed with Asperger's, which is now classed as ASD. And so sometimes communication can be an issue for him. - How would you describe your personality? - Chaotic. Really chaotic. Like, I have no filter. Blunt as a sledgehammer. The problem with me is, like, I can't act like an adult. I find it too boring. Way, way too boring. - Can he say some inappropriate things sometimes? - Sometimes, yep. He always has me laughing. Sometimes he shocks me with the things he says. - We often have that conversation with him about, 'Filter, Joshua.' Yeah. - As well as ASD, autism spectrum disorder, Josh is hearing impaired, which he told the medical centre when he got his mole checked. - He was 28 years old, and that was the time that it was like, OK, Josh is an adult now and needs to be allowed to do this stuff on his own. - The doctor excised the mole and sent it off for testing. When the results came back... - He said I was perfectly fine. He said it was just a lesion. - But that was wrong. The results from the lab said it was an invasive melanoma and a larger area needed to be excised. Josh should have been referred to a specialist. But despite multiple follow-up visits, a large area was never excised. Josh was never referred. He believed he was fine. - Josh has a good memory, eh? - Yeah, he does. Yeah. - One thing that when you have ASD, there's some things that stay in your mind. He was really clear about what he remembered, that it was no cancer. - I trusted a doctor. Because, you know, why would I not trust a doctor? - So Josh just got on with his life, until six months later. - I was having a shower and I found a lump and my armpit there. - He saw a different doctor this time, who sent him straight to hospital. - I had a surgeon tell me that I have stage four melanoma. - How did you feel when that diagnosis was delivered? - I was confused at first, until she told me what the doctor did. Then I was pissed. Beyond angry. Because the most evil thing has just happened to me. I had everything taken away. I can't go to work. I can barely walk. It's... I just lost my independence, really. And he gets away with it scot free. - We're all sad and we're angry and we're frustrated. - They complained to the Health and Disability Commissioner, which found that, although the doctor said he had no doubt he would have told Josh about the seriousness of the lesion, that the doctor had breached Josh's right to be fully informed. And although this Dr B also said he vaguely recollects Josh declining a specialist referral, that there was no evidence of that, and that Dr B breached Josh's right to an appropriate standard of care. - I guess that validated to our family that this wasn't OK, and that this shouldn't have happened. - Seeing him like that last night was pretty upsetting. - It was pretty hard, eh? - Josh and his family are now waiting for the outcome of a Health Practitioners Disciplinary Tribunal, where the doctor is facing a charge of professional misconduct. The medical practice was cleared of any wrongdoing. What was your plan for life before this happened? - OK, plan for life was to pretty much have a quiet life. It was to work at Farmers, come home, build miniature models and play video games. - Both passions he shared with his older brother, Daniel. - Josh made all these, and I bought them off him. He painted them. - These are miniatures for the game Warhammer. - Does he have a favourite among these ones? - This one. - (PART CLATTERS) - (GASPS) Woops! - It's all right. Don't tell him! - Where's that other bit of gaffer tape? - We could cut that bit out. - LAUGHS: Oh no! - No, no, it's not` - Cut. - There you go. - Oh, there we go. OK, take two. - Josh and I would play all the games. We were trying to find a game that would suit us both. Like the pirate game we played, Sea of Thieves, he'd play that for hours. - There was one day where he played 48 hours non-stop. - Oh my goodness! - Oh, my hand. - What's up? - It's... (SIGHS) - It needs massaging. That's the problem. - Partway through our korero, Josh reveals the difficulties of living with ASD, and as he'd say, talking like an adult, with his filters on. - Yes? - No. - Maybe? - No, it's not good. Not enough pressure. - Oh, you want more pressure now? - Yeah. I have to really restrain myself. It feels like a stress on the back of my head. - So through this whole interview, you've had, like... - Like a burning sensation. - It hurts your head? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it's like... I've had it forever. It's... It's a weird sensation. I can't explain it. But if I have to restrain myself, it kinda burns, like a stress. And if I... once I be myself, boom, it's gone. I'm relaxed. - Josh just being Josh means plenty of laughs. - Hello, world. How are you? - But recently there are strange, new unfamiliar feelings. - I've never seen Josh cry. You know. We put it down to the autism that he, you know, was mostly robotic and, like, kinda closed in, in that way. - And he is now starting to have, or starting to recognise that he has feelings. The first time I saw that was when he said to me that he needed to resign from Farmers. And he said to me, 'I actually might cry.' and I said, 'You know what? That's OK.' Because you're allowed to feel sad about this. You're allowed to be sad. Yeah. But it's all very new for him. Yeah. And for those of us who haven't seen that side of him. - I have to hold back tears a lot of the time, because it's like, it's devastating, you know? But yeah, Josh will never stop being Josh ` in my eyes, anyway. There's this tribunal coming up. - You're now on palliative care. - Mm-hm. - So your time is limited. - Yep. - How are you coping with that realisation? - Well, I don't know how much time I have left, so the best that I'm gonna get is his name out there. (POIGNANT MUSIC) - Josh died 13 days after he spoke to us. His memorial service was on Monday. The doctor Josh went to see has interim name suppression. What we can tell you is that shortly after treating Josh for the last time, he went on annual leave, left the country, and hasn't returned to the medical practice. Josh died not knowing the final outcome of his case, but his family will attend the disciplinary tribunal hearing next month. - Doctors are human, and I get that. But even to, you know, to get to this place and to still not have apologised ` there's no remorse. - What I want and what Josh wants are the same things. We don't want this to happen to anyone else. We will do everything we can as a family to hold him accountable and, yeah, to follow that process through for Josh. - Josh, can you think of anything else that you wanted to talk about? - Let's see. So, am I allowed to shit on the doctor as much as possible? - This is for you. - OK. So if it's going to make you feel ` because I know that it's been... your brain's been burning, effectively, is what you've told me ` if it's gonna make you feel better, then let it rip. - (BLEEP) this guy. Like, the pain that he's put me through. - He is a (BLEEP). - (LAUGHS) A piece of (BLEEP). - A (BLEEP, BLEEP). - OK. (LAUGHS) - Does it feel better? - Yeah, I do. - Good. - That was nice and relieving. - Yeah, a real character. At his memorial service on Monday, Josh's casket was painted with images from his beloved games, and those there to celebrate his life placed Warhammer figurines on top. Meanwhile, the doctor at the centre of our story will be represented at the Health and Disciplinary Tribunal in early August, where his name suppression will be discussed again. Up next, the alarming rise in teen vaping. How did it happen? - Like, you can't even really go to the bathroom at lunch any more, cos they're just all hogging the bathrooms, vaping. - It's no wonder this product appealed to young people so much. It was designed for them, it was marketed to them, and it was available to them. - You know it's bad, but you don't care, because your brain is hooked on it. - What is it actually doing to them? It can affect memory, concentration and learning. But it also sets the foundation for future addiction. - The day doesn't begin until we've got our coffee order in. Yup, we've become a nation of coffee snobs, which is why Z's trained baristas use Hoki mai ano. Supporters argue they're a safe and effective way to transition away from smoking. But the jury is out on the long term effects of e-cigarettes and vaping. This multibillion dollar global industry is growing in popularity among teens and young adults, and that's raising serious concerns we're fuelling a new generation of nicotine addicts. In this confronting special report, Grace Tobin looks at the rise and risks of vaping among schoolkids and a marketing machine that seems to be straight from the big tobacco playbook. (BROODING DANCE MUSIC) - Do you vape? - Only when I'm drinking. (CHUCKLES) - Like, socially. So, like, when I'm out. So, like, maybe, like, once a week. - I do have friends that are actually addicted to vaping. I do think that it is legitimately disruptive to some people's lives. - How often would you vape now? - Oh, way too often. Yeah, yeah. Um, every day. Yeah, I probably go through one disposable vape a week. - I would say I was at a light level of addiction. The easy thing about vaping is you can almost vape anywhere these days. - Hey, yo! Nicotine addiction check. - Vaping was hailed as a new way to quit smoking. Instead, it's become a craze among young people. - It's no wonder this product appealed to young people so much. It was designed for them, it was marketed to them, and it was available to them. - You are inhaling a cocktail of chemicals, particularly the flavouring chemicals, We have no idea what the long-term consequences of that are going to be. - How involved is big tobacco in the vaping industry? - Big tobacco is in the thick of it. (BROODING MUSIC) - You know it's bad, but you don't care, because your brain is hooked on it, and it's like a physical addiction. You have your phone and your vape. Like, it's just an accessory that you constantly have. It's the last thing you do before you go to sleep. It's the first thing you do when you wake up. Sometimes you wake up a couple of times during the night to hit it and then go back to sleep. Like, it's... it's totally got a hold of you, and it's the only thing you think about. - In her final year of high school, Ruby is battling an addiction to nicotine. When did you first try vaping? - Like,... I'm gonna say 2018, 2019. Really young ` so when I was 14 or 15, I'm gonna say. Super young. At the time, everyone was like, 'It's healthier than smoking, 'cos you're not getting, like, the tobacco and all the, like, carcinogens in your lungs.' And it just felt cleaner, cos you didn't have the cigarette smell and the taste and they're, like, flavoured with, like, fruity stuff, so it just feels like you're taking a lolly or something. - Do you remember how it felt the first time when you did try it? - Um... I wanna say it felt like you were dying, but in a good way. Like, (CHUCKLES) you get a head rush. I don't know how to explain. You get super light-headed, you get, like, shaky. Like, it's this wave that just comes over you. (CURIOUS MUSIC) - Vaping is a multi-billion-dollar global industry. In Australia, It's now estimated about 400,000 people vape. - The majority of use is actually in younger age groups, and it's particularly common in teenagers and young adults. We are seeing quite rapid increases. - What is vaping? How does it actually work? So, e-cigarettes heat an e-liquid, which usually contains nicotine, to a very high temperature, and that creates an aerosol, which the user then inhales, and that gives them a dose of nicotine as well as the flavouring and other chemicals. One of the issues with nicotine addiction at young ages is not only the problem that goes with being addicted to a substance, but it has effects on the developing brain. So we can see that it can affect memory, concentration and learning, but it also sets the foundation for future addiction. - Did you vape today? - It's OK. I don't mind` You better tell me the truth. - Yes. Yes. - You did? - Yeah. And how did you feel about that? - Irritated. - A few months ago, Ruby confessed to her mum, Nicola, she was vaping and needed help giving up. - So, did you buy the vape, or did someone give it to you? Everyone just has one. So it's like, you just go to the bathroom. It's like a thing, like, 'Do you wanna go to the bathroom?' - Oh, right. She came to me and said that she had been vaping and it had got a bit out of hand, and she was doing it a lot, and she'd tried to quit and she couldn't. She'd had these really unpleasant symptoms that she didn't like, that confused her, and she wanted me to help her find a way out of it. - You know when you're having withdrawals. It's miserable. You just feel grumpy and you get anxious. Like, you're literally like, 'I need... I need a vape right now.' And you get headaches, like, dry mouth, shaking sometimes. It's... It's not fun. - How did you feel, as a parent, hearing that sort of news from a 16-year-old? - Oh, devastated, because what she's saying is that, at 16 years old, I have an addiction. That's what she was saying ` I have an addiction that I cannot control. And I was... I was really upset. I was really fearful for her health. I felt really angry that this product existed that seemed almost designed to appeal to kids, and now she couldn't stop it. I was upset. I was angry. Yeah, it was a horrible feeling. (CURIOUS MUSIC) (SCHOOL BELL CHIMES) - The bell rings, you want to go to the bathroom, and you just literally see tens of kids, like sitting in a circle, just all sharing one, and it's crazy. - Why do you think people like it so much or do it so much? - They just love the flavour, I reckon. And then the nicotine gets them addicted, and they just can't stop. - High school is a lot of people trying to fit in. And also it's colourful, it smells nice, and they just want to be cool. I feel like that's why it could be really popular. - Like, you can't even really go to the bathroom at lunch any more, cos they're just all hogging the bathrooms, vaping. - Why do they go to the bathrooms to do it? - To hide from the teachers. Cos they don't wanna get caught, cos they'll confiscate the vape if they find out. - In Australia, schools are only just coming to terms with how popular vaping has become with kids. In New South Wales alone, one in 10 16- to 24-year-olds now vape. It's more than doubled in the space of a year. - We see it consistently. It is an ongoing, consistent situation that we deal with at a school level. I am hearing from colleagues nearby that it's the same in all of the school contexts, and we are hearing that it's happening across a range of age groups as well, which is quite fascinating for me. - How young are we talking? - Look, I've heard stories of children as young as year three and four. (STUDENTS CHATTER) - In Sydney's Western Suburbs, Principal Brenda Quayle can't remember the last time she dealt with a smoker, but she tackles vaping on an almost daily basis. How difficult was it to actually detect or even catch out kids who were vaping? - The scent that is attached to some of the vapes that students are able to purchase now are quite sweet, so strange smells that we thought initially were perfume and a few jokes here and there about, 'That's a bit of a sickly smell for a perfume,' and trying to piece together what it was that were now using as deodorants really made us start to stop and think and go, 'No, this doesn't seem like a scent.' - When we're talking about addiction in children, e-cigarettes may actually be more dangerous than smoking, because they're much easier to access, they're much more discreet. You can hide them. And they also have these multiple flavours, so they're much more appealing to children, and they're marketed to children. Use of e-cigarettes in that younger age group isn't about giving up smoking. It's about a completely new habit. - Research shows kids who vape are actually more likely to start smoking cigarettes. - Young people who use e-cigarettes and are non-smokers have around three times the probability of taking up smoking as young people who don't use e-cigarettes. - Come on in, Grace, and I'll show you what we've collected over the last few months. You can see here samples of how innocuous some of these look. In this case, this was a collection of things where students were on-selling them. But you can see, some of them look like USB hard drives. Some of them certainly look like highlighters. And the palm size of them is quite a concern. - So, how often are you having to confiscate vapes? - Oh, we'd be confiscating vapes a couple of times a week at the moment. We do spend a lot of time in long conversations with young people about, are you aware of how dangerous this is? - So, why is vaping so attractive to young people? Next, the ad campaign that many say laid the groundwork. - Initially, it was to help people to quit smoking ` a very noble thing to want to do. But that's not how the product was rolled out. - This is a new device, so it had to feel... contemporary. How marketing created a monster. - I think that this company saw a hole in the market and went for it. - Lawyer after lawyer has been through every email I have ever written to anyone at that company. (CURIOUS MUSIC) - So, for the Juul,... it's like this. - I picked me up one of these bad boys right here. - You have the pods. So, this one is mango. - E-cigarettes have been around for 15 years, sold as an alternative to smoking. But the company that made vaping cool is a Silicon Valley start-up called Juul. - Nicotine Addiction check. - There's 38 million Americans that still smoke. There are a billion people who still smoke globally. But 70% of those people want to quit. - Juul launched in 2015. Its founders claimed their mission was to disrupt the tobacco industry with a device that delivered at least three times more nicotine than its rivals. - I would tell people, anyone who would listen, 50 years from now, nobody is gonna be smoking cigarettes. They're gonna look back and think, 'Oh, my God, I can't believe people used to do that.' And now I think it's actually gonna happen much faster, in large part because of the progress that we've made. - And so Juul comes up with this product. And initially, I mean, I don't know people's intentions ` I can't read people's minds. But supposedly, initially, it was to help people to quit smoking ` a very noble thing to want to do. But that's not how the product was rolled out. (UPBEAT MUSIC) - Juul's first advertising campaign featured young, glamorous models, vaping the company's sleek, stylish device. - Well, I think that, just looking at the device, it felt really disruptive. It was, to me, a beautiful piece of industrial design. And so we kind of talked and had conversations about like, you know, how do you sort of present that? This is a new device, so it had to feel... contemporary. Great. Gorgeous. Amazing. Wow! - Steven Baillie was the campaign's creative director. - I think when my clients come to me, they have a very specific demographic in mind, in terms of the audience they're trying to reach and appeal to. - Did Juul have a demographic in mind when they came to you? - Um... I... Yeah, I mean, I believe it was millennials. I don't have that paperwork in front of me. It's certainly been a number of years. - I think the impact of the Vaporized campaign can't be underestimated. So, you had ads in teen magazines. You had ads on children's cartoon websites. It's no wonder this product appealed to young people so much. It was designed for them, it was marketed to them, and it was available to them. - Becky Freeman has spent her career studying how tobacco companies try to influence public health. She tracked the success of Juul. - Their rise was unstoppable. Vaping has come in and just completely been taken up by young people, including, you know, men, women, 18- to 24-year-olds. I think that this company saw a hole in the market and went for it. - It just kind of happened so fast. It's in kind of every 7-Eleven, Winn-Dixie across the United States. It's in my local sort of corner store in New Jersey. And that's when the real negative kind of publicity started to catch on. It just felt like ` again, from my perspective ` a little blip in the radar in the beginning, but then it was like, again, like a huge explosion later. Um, and there was, you know, clearly a lot of outrage from angry parents. - By 2018, more than three million American high schoolers were vaping, and the backlash against Juul began. - Mr Monsees, I will begin by swearing you in. - Alarmed there was a youth nicotine epidemic, Congress grilled the company at public hearings. - We never wanted any non-nicotine user, and certainly nobody underage to ever use Juul products. Juul Labs isn't big tobacco. We are here to eliminate its product, the cigarette. - In fact, at the time of this testimony, the parent company of tobacco giant Philip Morris USA already owned a third of Juul. - Philip Morris buying such a large share in Juul was incredibly cynical, because this is a company who, in their early marketing materials, was touting how they were going to be some sort of big tobacco adversary, that they were gonna push big tobacco out of the market and be the new, safer player in town. And then you have big tobacco just swooping in and going, 'Huh? This company operates just like us ` 'they target young people, they don't care about health, 'and they are quite savvy with product design and savvy with marketing materials. 'Well, that fits right in with our company.' - Juul denies it marketed to children, but has so far paid $77 million to settle court cases with several US states. Steven Baillie has been repeatedly questioned over Juul's creative brief. - There's tons of litigation. Are you kidding me? I've been deposed so many times. I've been sitting around with lawyers talking about this for... feels like the last three years. I think there's a lot of misconceptions about that campaign, like there's some smoking gun. I mean, lawyer after lawyer has been through every email I have ever written to anyone at that company. Right? So it's kind of a disconnect for me to, like, sort of, like, say that that campaign is responsible for a teen smoking epidemic. I just don't buy it. - Yep, responsibility aside, though, teen vaping is a genuine concern. But next, could going after vapes scupper anti-smoking efforts? - I think they're actually costing lives by campaigning against vaping. - I wish that e-cigarettes didn't have the harms that they do, but I have to present the evidence. - Evidence that's getting hard to ignore. - Have you fully quit vaping, or is it hard to stick to that? - It's very hard to stick to it. Nau mai ano. The rise of electronic cigarettes and vaping comes with its own catch-22. On the one hand, they're seen as an effective means to help smokers quit. But as we've heard, slick branding and sweet scents have created a whole new generation of addicts. This conflict goes to the heart of public health. Is it better to embrace vaping or stamp it out altogether? - Very little is known about the long-term risk of inhaling the chemicals found in vapes, including the variety of flavours. - The bottom line, I think, from our review, is actually that for the major health outcomes that most people are concerned about, like cancer, cardiovascular disease, mental health, reproductive outcomes, we actually don't know what e-cigarettes do to those outcomes. So the safety for those outcomes hasn't been established yet. - Professor Emily Banks is a world-renowned epidemiologist at the Australian National University. - There's quite a lot of interest in what the implications are for regulation. - The federal government tasked Professor Banks and her team with investigating the harms of e-cigarettes. Her report is the most comprehensive review of the global evidence so far, and found vaping poses a serious public health risk. - They cause addiction, they can cause poisoning, toxicity through inhalation, which can lead to seizures, trauma and burns, lung injury. And we found that they are harmful overall. - But vaping advocates claim any harms caused by e-cigarettes pale in comparison to the dangers of smoking. - It's important to remember that there are 21,000 deaths from smoking every year, eight million deaths from smoking worldwide every year. It's a big issue. - Dr Alex Wodak has campaigned on drug law reform for 40 years... - I'll do whatever is necessary. It needs to be done. It has to be done. It can't be postponed. - ...particularly around illicit drugs. - Heroin users are much better off getting clean heroin of known concentration from doctors and the health system generally. The parallels between the battles we've fought for methadone treatment, needle syringe programmes, drug consumption rooms and so on, and the battle over vaping, it's exactly the same battle. - Dr Wodak is part of a vaping advocacy group called the Australian Tobacco Harm Reduction Association. - So, how long have you been vaping now, completely, without smoking? - ATHRA was founded by Dr Colin Mendelsohn, a GP who helps smokers quit. - It's been about eight and a half years since you quit smoking? I've seen a lot of patients who have tried and failed repeatedly with traditional remedies, and many of them have given up on quitting. So they've said, 'Look, I expect to die like my father from lung cancer. 'I never thought I'd be able to quit.' And for many of them, vaping is a revelation. - Do you think vaping is harmless? - Certainly not harmless. No credible authority says vaping is harmless. Nothing is as good as fresh air. But for people who are otherwise going to smoke and have that level of risk, vaping is substantially less harmful. - These products are really being targeted as being useful for quitting smoking, and there is limited evidence ` the jury is kind of still out as to whether they're really effective for that ` but for some people, they do help them to quit smoking. - Dr Mendelsohn and Dr Wodak describe e-cigarettes as a threat to big tobacco's profits. But ATHRA has previously accepted $8000 from an organisation called Knowledge Action Change, which receives funding from tobacco giant Philip Morris. ATHRA has also accepted donations from vaping businesses. - We declared that funding right from the beginning. So the donations from the vaping industry were declared at the time. It was on our website. I declared it at an international conference. - You did, though, in several interviews, deny taking funding or donations from e-cigarette companies, vaping companies. So why would you do that in interviews, then? - Why I did that was that I denied taking any personal donations, as I have to you. So, people have asked me, 'Do you take any donations? 'Have you had any funding from tobacco or e-cigarette companies?' And I've said, 'No, I haven't.' We've been very transparent about the support that ATHRA's had from e-cigarette companies. - Do you really think there's that much of a difference taking funding personally or as the founding chairman of ATHRA? - I do. I have no personal benefit in any of this. - Big Tobacco's evolution from cigarettes to vaping is accelerating. Last year alone British American Tobacco earned nearly $1 billion from e-cigarettes. - I think big tobacco is actually more trustworthy and more... more pro-health in this than many of the public health bodies in Australia. - They're producing credible research. They're producing products which save lives. Public health in Australia is opposed to that, and I think that's... that's wrong. I think they're actually costing lives by campaigning against vaping. - Are you undermining confidence in official public health bodies? - I think official public health bodies are undermining confidence in themselves. - What do you think of that kind of statement? - Um, I don't know what to say, really, because I just think it's untrue. I think tobacco, the tobacco industry, has the interests of its shareholders at heart. It's not interested in public health. It's interested in maintaining profits. And I also think they have shown themselves repeatedly that they cannot be trusted, and it's a mistake to trust them. - A Senate committee inquiry into e-cigarettes was held in 2020, where pro-vape MPs took on public health authorities. - It seems you've got a lot of book smarts. There's a lot of studies, and there's a lot of science. There's not a lot of street smarts. That might be a starting point. - I think the Department of Health, and this year more than ever has shown that it is entirely science, health, medical based in relation to the health of Australia. - We're not ashamed of that. - Yeah, all right, OK. - Professor Emily Banks was one of the key witnesses. - So I'm not sure exactly which document you are referring to` - I'm talking the Lee study, 2019. - Right. So... - And there were three lots of studies, and one of them` - That is one study` - But it's used as part` And listening to your opening statement, I've gotta say, Professor Banks, you don't sound like you're a big fan of e-cigarettes, and think they have much value, which is a little bit of a worry, since the report isn't finalised, and you seem to have a pretty predetermined view. - Was that true? - Well, what I say is that I'm here to present the evidence. And so that's what I do. And I wish the news was different. I wish that e-cigarettes didn't have the harms that they do. But I have to present the evidence. - What's the vape model of choice? Like, what's everyone using? - It changes. - Gunnpod? - iGet. - iGet XXL? - Yes, absolutely. - iGet King? - (ALL LAUGH) Here's a hot topic. Do we think there is non-vaper elitism? - I feel like people that, like, don't vape, they just look down on people who do vape. But, like, also, you don't know how hard it is to, like, stop vaping and like... - At 17 years old, Ruby is trying to stop vaping. She's now on nicotine patches to help her quit. What have you told your friends about trying to give up? - I told everyone at my school. I was like, 'Do not give me any vapes.' Like, I had to have other people hold me accountable. And it's like a monster that takes over you. I go up to people, and I'm like, 'Do you have a vape?' And they're like, 'We can't give it to you.' And I told them not to give it to me, but I get so angry. I'm like, 'You're not my friends.' Like, 'If you really, like, cared for me, you'd give me a vape.' - What do you think about Ruby giving up? - Honestly, I've seen Ruby giving up many times. It's been like a little not linear progression, but, you know, just like an up and down thing. And yeah, I just think it's great, because it is really hard. And if she does quit this time, if she doesn't quit this time, I think it's great that at least she's trying. - For a product that's meant to help smokers quit, Ruby's finding it's not that easy giving up vaping either. Have you fully quit vaping, or is it hard to stick to that? - It's very hard to stick to it. - When is it hardest? - Constantly. All the time. 24-7. It's ridiculous. Like, there is no rest. - Well, like it or not, vaping will be an important part of efforts to make Aotearoa smoke-free by 2025. The government's plan to end smoking says vaping has changed the possibilities for people who smoke, offering an alternative at much lower risk to health. So has it got it right? I'll be talking to commentators about this live on our Facebook page at 8.30 tonight. We would love for you to join in the conversation. Stay with us. We'll have more after the break. Kia ora ano. They were a group of friends, three teenage girls with everything to look forward to. But that was stolen from them by a boy from their school, someone they thought was a mate. In a special report next week, these brave and unashamed young wahine speak out to demand change. (BROODING PIANO MUSIC) - My name is Mia Edmonds. - My name is Rosie Veldkamp. - I am Ellie Oram, and I'm a survivor of sexual assault. - Three young women... - He was very popular and very, very well known. - I thought that he was such a lovely guy. - ...bound by the terrible actions of a teenage sex offender. - I asked him to leave me alone. I asked him to get off me multiple times. It just got to the point where I knew he wasn't listening. - A schoolmate... - I was very clearly, like, saying things like, 'No, stop.' But the more I said, the more aggressive he got. It was textbook rape. - Was there any way you were capable of consenting that night? - No. 100%, No. - What our young people are coping with... - We have what is essentially a pandemic of sexual violence in high schools. - ...and what these survivors are demanding. - Enough is enough. - This culture is not accepted, and it needs to stop. - (APPLAUSE) - I thought that I was in the wrong. I didn't realise that I didn't consent. That is an issue. And I don't think many people understand that. - All I want is to prevent this from happening to other people. That's all I want. - Yeah, these brave young women will be on our show next week. But thank you for joining us this evening. I'll be live on Facebook in just a moment discussing our approach to e-cigarettes and vaping. Love to hear your thoughts. As always, if you have a story you think we should investigate, contact us at sunday@tvnz.co.nz.