- Nau mai, I'm Simon Shepherd, and welcome to Newshub Nation. On the programme this week ` The house is on fire. Are we feeling the force of climate change early? - Sky-high inflation ` the highest rate since the 1990s. Is relief coming? - And what toy company Zuru's US court ruling could mean for anonymous review sites. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - First up ` They were temperatures not predicted to be seen until 2050. But this week, the UK broke records by hitting a scorching 40 degrees. - The summer heatwave has wreaked havoc, not just across the UK, but also Europe, where crews are battling wildfires, and more than 1000 heat deaths have been recorded. - The climate change crisis is here. - Wild fire in London. The city turned into an oven. - Very, very hot. - Home after smouldering home lying in ruins. - Fighting on the front line in France. Forest fires have now burned through an area twice the size of Paris. - This is us. This is here. This is now. - I hope that these kind of events are going to be a wake-up call. - Flames raced up the hillside. - It's excruciatingly hot. - It's the only place where we can hide. - The transformer at the Hoover Dam exploded as power grids tried to meet record demands for electricity to run air conditioners. - The only road in and out of Lake Ohau ` washed away. - There was no cruising on the Interislander this morning. Mother Nature smashed this catamaran to smithereens in Eastbourne and turned this person's commute into a wave-dodging exercise. - Yet another night of wild weather in the south meant parts of Christchurch woke up under water. - Found my car like this. - Large slips closed roads and power cut to hundreds of Canterbury homes. - I think we're gonna move house after this. - Cos Mother Nature doesn't always make a great houseguest. - Joining us now from Birmingham is Newshub's Europe correspondent, Lisette Reymer. Lisette, some scary scenes there, but is the record heat enough to spark serious debate and action across the UK and Europe on climate change? - Well, absolutely ` it's enough to spark debate, and there has been plenty of that. Whether or not it is enough to result in actual action remains to be seen. But as is always the case, when things close to home, that is when people really start to pay attention. And across Europe, at the moment, over the last couple of weeks with this intense heat, millions of people have been forced to face up to the facts. So many people have been hit by that intense heat. Thousands, tens of thousands of people have had to evacuate their homes because of the wildfires. At the moment, there are six countries across Europe who are battling out-of-control blazes. Even in London, we experienced wildfires, which is incredibly uncommon. 41 properties completely destroyed. President Macron, the president of France, visited the worst affected areas in the southwest of France to show some, or share some` try and offer some comfort to those residents who had been affected by the fires. And he said that he would be building back better with a promise to invest more in climate change prevention. But certainly in the UK, a lot of people sitting up and saying if we don't make significant contributions to emissions reduction, then we're going to be seeing this more and more often. And quite frankly, the infrastructure cannot survive it. - And in the middle of all of this, Lisette ` a typical Boris Johnson farewell in parliament amidst a hotly contested leadership battle. Tell us about that. - Yes. 'Hasta la vista, baby,' were his final words to Westminster. Boris Johnson kind of half clapped out, half not. He had missed several emergency meetings on the heatwave this week, so they were just quite desperate to get him out of the parliament by the end of it. As you say, now marks the start, really, of this leadership debate. Things are really kicking off now between Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak. They have it down to those final two. The former chancellor taking on the foreign secretary. So far, it has just been the MPs who have been voting to get it down to the final two. Now it will be opened up to the entire Conservative Party. So 160,000-odd people will have a say in who will be the next Prime Minister of the UK. And we're expected to know that by the 5th of September. - And what are the chances that Rishi Sunak could become the UK's first leader of colour? - It really depends who you ask. At the moment, the major polls here in the UK actually have Liz Truss in front by quite a commanding amount. She has registered 62% approval in the polls versus Rishi's 38%. So she is out in front in that regard. But traditionally, Rishi has been the front runner. The former chancellor ` he has a very strong reputation, although he did run into a bit of trouble in the last couple of months when it was revealed he actually still had a US green card while he was chancellor, and his wife wasn't paying tax on her overseas income. So a few issues there for him that he's still really working through. Ultimately, it's going to come down to the public's taxes. Tax cuts are the real sticking point of this race. At the moment, Rishi Sunak saying it is not the time for tax cuts. They're going to add to the living costs crisis that the UK is currently dealing with. Liz Truss saying, 'It's now I will introduce tax cuts immediately.' So that's the real point that is going to separate these two when it comes to who is prime minister. - All right. Finally, Lisette, has the focus on who will become Britain's next prime minister overshadowed the serious weather crisis going on there? - No, I think it's actually been the opposite. The heat has been so all-consuming and overwhelming that it's all really anyone's been talking about. And it's only really now that things are starting to cool off in terms of the temperature that people are paying more attention to the leadership race. And it's starting to get, you know, the attention that you would expect of the race to be the next prime minister. I think, all in all, the country is so disillusioned with the Conservative Party. They have been feeling that way for a year. Liz Truss, Rishi Sunak were both close members of Boris Johnson's cabinet. They only stopped supporting him at the very last minute, and I think a lot of people are just not wanting to engage in that any more. And that, again, has been a huge part of the campaign for these two, is who is actually going to be able to beat the Labour leader, Sir Keir Starmer, when it comes to the election? So that is really, I think, what a lot of people are waiting around for now. - Really appreciate your time and analysis, Lisette. That's our Newshub Europe correspondent ` Lisette Reymer live from Birmingham. - While Europe battles this record-breaking heatwave, winter storms have caused havoc across New Zealand, including damage to coastal areas and disrupted flights. - With extreme weather events becoming commonplace, do we need to reduce our emissions much sooner? - So I spoke to chairperson for the Climate Change Commission, Rod Carr, and asked him if the Government's emissions reduction plan is already out of date. - Kia ora, Simon. It's a great opportunity. No, I don't believe it is already out of date. It was arguable. We should have been getting on with this 10, 20, even 30 years ago. To that extent, we are late to this party, but the work that needs to be done to set us on a pathway towards a low emissions economy is now underway. We just need to accelerate it. It's certainly not the case that the emissions reduction plan is out of date, but it will become out of date if we don't take action now. - So the International Panel for Climate Change's latest report said that if governments do all the carbon cutting that they pledge, the world would still warm by 3.2 degrees this century. So the IPCC seems to be casting doubt that we're doing enough. - What they've said is, very clearly, a call to action that not only do nations have to deliver on their pledges, and a number are not, but in addition, we need to strive harder sooner to move faster. But to get this done, we need to sustain action for the decades to come. And a quick-fire quest for a silver bullet that alienates the community is almost a sure-fire way to not get the sustained action that is critical for us to be able to address this issue before the middle of this century. - In 2024, you're tasked with reviewing our emissions reductions target for carbon and methane. Should you be reviewing that earlier? - Simon, I don't think an earlier review is necessary. What we need to do, and the commission is charged with the responsibility, for now ensuring that the government` and that means all of us, not just them` the government and its plan is executed, and we need to monitor progress and report on that progress to New Zealand to hold governments accountable. - OK. Our biggest emitter is agriculture. And you agree that they should calculate their own emissions at the farm gate. Do you believe the industry is going to follow through? - We've got a number of things where we entirely agree with the industry partnership. We agree that, given we have a split gas approach, and that means a separate quantitative target for biogenic methane, then emissions pricing has a part to play in achieving the target of a 10% reduction on 2017 emissions by 2030. But that quantity reduction can be assisted by a price on methane that is consistent with that statutory target, and we believe that, that can be measured at the farm gate. He Waka Eke Noa formed the same view, and we think there is a way to make a price that rewards low emitting farming practices and land use. And we think a simple form of that, a basic form, can be introduced by the 1st of January 2025. - You say it's going to be a basic system by 2025. Is that going to be good enough? - No, we need to leave room to improve the granularity, or refinement, of the system as new science and new measurement technologies become available. But the starting proposition is that if farmers face a price that rewards them for taking up lower emitting farming practices, technologies and land use, then they will do so, because they will have an incentive to do so. - OK, let's talk transport emissions. Cars, trucks ` they make 21% of our emissions and growing. Now, you want the Government to ban new fossil fuel cars by 2030, possibly 2035. So far, nothing is happening. Is that frustrating? - It's not quite nothing, Simon. The government has introduced clean car standards, so we have stopped becoming the absolute dumping ground for the highest emitting, second-hand vehicles in the world, which is something that we had become. The government has introduced a fee-based system to provide incentives and rewards for those who can afford to move to move towards lower emitting vehicles. So we have started taking steps. - On that particular point ` I mean, you know, UK ` 2030, Germany ` 2030, even the US ` 2035, no more new fossil fuel cars. But our government is not buying into that. - Well, we have to remember that what the government has laid down is the First Emissions Reduction Plan, which is the plan for the period from now until 2025. - But you've also provided that advice, haven't you? You've already provided that advice. That's what you'd like to see happen. - Yes, we have provided that advice. And in light of decisions taken and emerging new technology and behaviour change, we may repeat the same advice; we may develop that advice further. - OK. - But just because of a piece of advice doesn't taken doesn't mean that suddenly it is never going to be taken. - What did you make of the government's reducing the fuel tax on petrol and diesel until next year? Is that a setback? - We know that the price of fuel affects household budgets significantly. What we saw is the underlying oil price surged dramatically to levels that could have never been put in place by an emissions trading scheme price. And as a consequence, the oil companies have done some of the price work that might otherwise have had to be done. As part of a just transition, we need to be mindful of the burdens we expect people to bear as they transition to a lower emissions economy. - But does that set us back in terms of reducing emissions from the transport sector? - I don't believe in the short term it does, because the overall impact of the much higher price will push us in the right direction. - So New Zealand accounts, globally, just 0.17% of the world's gross emissions. But we have a higher per capita rate. I think we're sixth in the OECD. Is that the responsibility of individuals, or is it just the sort of main 15 companies that are responsible for three quarters of our emissions? - Well, Simon, you're quite right. New Zealand's emissions are about 16 tons per capita. So gross emissions ` about 80 million tons. 5 million of us ` 16 tons per capita. Even if you set aside all of agricultural emissions and say that that's a different type of emission and we don't want to have to fight about how you estimate it's equivalence, you're still left with 8 million tons for each of us. And that compares with China` If you count everything, including their energy emissions for manufacturing, for export, they're at 5 tons per capita. - So we are bad emitters in New Zealand, aren't we? - We have lifestyles which have become dependent on high emitting technologies, and we need to take responsibility for the change over the next 30 years that will move us to much lower emitting lifestyles and much lower reliance on high emitting livelihoods for the way we earn our income and earn and pay our way in the world. - Just finally, the United Nations secretary general shoulder tapped you to help develop standards that will make business and regions follow through on their carbon cutting pledges. Is there a real concern that everything is all talk and no action? - Indeed, there were 18 of us, so it's not a sole act ` 18 of us from all around the world to provide advice by COP27 of what has become known as greenwashing. And that is the increasing plethora of claims of net zero products and services or net zero companies or local governments. So it's not sovereign nation state claims, and the emerging reality that there is some concern that there are no global standards of what constitutes a net zero pathway and no real understanding about whether these claims are actually hiding or acting like a veil of virtue that will keep gross emissions higher for longer and consequently make things worse later. - We're seeing a lot of, you know, bad images from around the world, but there is progress on climate change. Emissions are coming down in some countries, maybe not New Zealand, but is there a case for optimism? - I believe there's a great case for optimism. I think, particularly for New Zealand, there is no doubt that for New Zealand, it is in our interests to move to a lower emitting society. A lower emitting society will be a healthier society than the combustion fuels in the open air. A lower emitting society will have new opportunities for more sustainable and renewable forms of both agriculture, energy production and mobility. And those are going to be good for our children and our grandchildren. They're also going to be good for us. - Dr Rod Carr from the Climate Change Commission. If you've got a news tip, get in touch. We're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. - E whai ake nei ` Are searing heatwaves the new normal? A climate specialist says extreme summer temperatures could be here to stay. - Plus, is this week's high inflation rate just the beginning? One Kiwi economist says the government could help ease the pressure. Is the heatwave in Europe a freak occurrence or an ominous sign of what's to come? And what can it tell us about New Zealand's fate? Joining me now, a senior lecturer in climate change at the University of Waikato, Luke Harrington. Tena koe, thanks for coming in. - Thanks for having me. - Luke, I just want to bring your attention to what we've got on the wall over here. So that is a MetService prediction done a couple of years ago` sorry, a Met Office prediction in the UK about what would happen in 2050. You can see, down the bottom, London, Norwich, 40 degrees, Newcastle, 38 degrees. OK, so that's what they predicted for 2050. If you look at what happened this week, this is actually what happened. It was predicted on Tuesday, this week. 40 degrees in London, 38, Norwich, Newcastle, 38. They look very similar, don't they? But one of them is 28 years earlier than the prediction. How concerning is that? - To be honest, it kind of depends on the choices that are made to come up with this graphic. For this heatwave, more generally, we know, without a shadow of a doubt, that it's been made more intense and more likely due to climate change. What we need to figure out is the specific numbers for this event. So the easy one to start with is intensity. Basically, we start` The world has warmed by 1.2 degrees, due to climate change. Land is warming a bit faster than the oceans, and very dry land, so places like the Sahara is warming a bit faster again. So that's where this hot air mass has come from, right? So we've had a low pressure system spinning off the coast of Portugal, it's swung all of this very warm air up from the Sahara. And as it's reached the UK, that's passed` passed over Western Europe and it's actually been very, very dry there as well. And when there's a drying signal, which there is in the Mediterranean, that cranks up these hottest temperatures even more. - OK. - So we would expect, probably, for a heat wave like this, once we do the analysis, I wouldn't be surprised if this heat wave was probably... 3 degrees, 2-3 degrees more intense than it would have otherwise been if the same weather system happened in a world without climate change. - OK, so, 2-3 degrees more. And is that why you say record smashing? - Yes. So, I mean, 40 degrees, right. Exceedances, again, that this was probably something that's happened a little bit earlier than what we're anticipating from the models. So the climate models that we're using, we're seeing increases in trends, probably, where we are now with warming, probably about 2 to 3 degrees now in, sort of, at the moment. With the observations, if we look at what's been happening over the last, sort of, 50, 100 years in Western Europe, we're actually seeing an intensification of these hottest extremes, probably nearer 3, three and a half degrees. So, there's something a little bit more there that's happening that's probably not quite being captured in our global climate models. Having said that, it's worth pointing out that the weather forecast models that we use to talk about the forecast for this event were spectacularly excellent. They caught this event probably about five or six days in advance. - OK. But that's a short term forecasting. But I mean, are` are we getting heatwaves that are more intense and more frequent than we expected? - Possibly, for Western Europe. - Yep. - So there's a few reasons that this could be happening. We need to look into the details a bit more. It could be something to do with how temperatures are warming in response to these really dry soils because it's been a very, very dry summer for Europe, so far. - Right, OK. So, there could be some other factors in there apart from just global warming. - Yeah. - All right. If we flip it to down here, we've had extreme wintry weather, a lot of rain down here. Can we expect more of those? - Heavy rainfall? - Yeah, heavy rainfall events. - Yeah, so` So, generally, we've looked at past events of the Canterbury flooding event last year and we saw that the amount of rain that's falling is about 10% more intense, more or less, than if that same weather system happened in a world without climate change. - Right. - So what that translates into ` how much more frequently are we seeing these events ` it's roughly about a doubling in the increase of frequency. - Oh, right. Doubling in frequency? - More or less. I wouldn't want to talk about this specific event. You have to look into each event. - Sure. Each event has got its own criteria, but overall, you're talking about a doubling in frequency. - About that. And what I would say is, that's heavy rainfall. When we talk about heat waves, heat waves have the largest signal from climate change. So I would actually be talking about a tenfold, or even a fiftyfold increase in the frequency of these types of very hot events. - A fiftyfold increase in these kinds of events? - Possibly. - That sounds very alarming. - Uh, I don't think it's alarming. These are the changes that are happening, and` but what we've got to remember is that with every additional .1 degree rise in global temperatures, these heatwaves are getting worse, right? But what that means is that every .1 degree of global temperature rise that we avoid, we avoid additional impacts from these heat experiences. - OK. I'll get to that in just a sec, but can the infrastructure at the moment, like, the cities in Europe, the cities and our towns here, do we have the infrastructure in place to be able to cope with this? - Well... yeah. We are adapted to the temperatures that we're used to, in the recent past. Right? So any time a relatively extreme heat happens, that's when the impacts start to` start to emerge. - Right. - So health impacts, particularly, you know, in the UK, in Europe, we saw, I think it was a thousand deaths from the heat. Not` nothing to do with the wildfires, just the temperatures themselves. And there's an initial estimate of about 800 excess deaths from the UK event. When temperatures are relatively extreme, that's when we see these things happening and that can totally happen in New Zealand, as well. - OK. So, final question, then. I mean, we've pledged to reach net zero by 2050. Is that going to be enough? I mean, you're talking about reducing .1, and it helps out, is that going to be enough to prevent or slow down these weather extremes? - So, where the temperatures stabilise at 2, two and a half, or 3 degrees of warming depends on when we reach net zero. But temperatures don't stop warming until we reach net zero. Right? - Right. - So net zero has to happen for warming to stop. How long it takes us to get there is what determines how much more warming there is. So when we're talking about net zero by 2050, that was aligned with 1.5 degrees, back when we were talking about these targets back in Paris 2015. Now, though, we're in 2022. For us to actually get to 1.5 degrees and stay below there, we probably need to be net zero by 2040, or something like that. - 2040. - Yeah. - It's all coming closer and more forward. - Yeah. But` but what I would say is that, even if we don't manage to succeed with 1.5 degrees, right? 1.6 degrees is still fantastic. 1.6 degrees is a lot better than 2 degrees. 2.1 degrees is a lot better than 3 degrees. So, every increment that we can avoid, by omitting as fast as possible, is really, really important to reduce the impacts of these extreme heat events. - Luke Harrington, thank you so much for your time today. - Thank you. - All right. Up next, will inflation get worse? Economist Cameron Bagrie on why we need this economic pain. Plus, is that review you posted really anonymous? A case in the US could have implications here for Kiwis. and there are warnings it will stay there until the end of next year. - So what does that mean for our back pockets? Reporter Finn Hogan spoke with economist Cameron Bagrie and started by asking what got us here and how much of it was in our control? - It's fair to say that central banks have had the pedal to the metal. The foot has been firmly on the accelerator over a very long, extended period in regard to inflating the global economy. Now, each time we had a pretty big economic accident, the bank interest rate lever came out, gonna wave that magic wand, at some point, you're gonna hit that sort of tipping point, and lo and behold, when you throw together an awful lot of demand stimulus, from the central banks, historically, yeah, an awful lot of stimulus, what can only be described as kitchen sink style economics from central banks and governments, in response to COVID. - But just quickly, How much stock do you put in National's claim that a lot of this has been driven by government spending? - Sure, yes, the government has contributed. $60 billion COVID relief package and poured an awful lot of money on an inflationary bonfire things such as lifting the minimum wage, while admirable, if you're not seeing productivity growth on the other side, that's gonna add to costs, it adds to that additional $0.50 you end up paying for your cup of coffee. - What is it going to take to get us out of this? What has the government going to do? What have reserve banks gotta do? - Some pretty bold and bigger picture thinking. Now the Reserve Bank is doing the right job here in regards the, yeah, they overcooked things the kitchen sink style economics. Yeah they've over-egged the omelette, so now they've got to turn things down on the other side and that's got to hurt. You know, there's a whole lot of first-time buyers that have purchased properties in the last 12 months that are in a fair bit of pain at the moment. But that's what happens when you need to get cut back on the demand, you need to offer in some economic pain across the jib. If you have a look at non-covid related expenditure in the coming 12 months, it's going to be up 13.8% compared to 2022. That is an absolutely eye-watering number considering the economic environment we are sitting in. And they're saying that 2023, the 2024, the 2025 budgets are gonna be pretty lean affairs. Well, I hope they are lean affairs, because if they're not the Reserve Bank's gonna be lifting it straight from the other side. They're overlooking economics 101. We've got a mismatch here between demand and supply, and the thing in the middle is called inflation. We need to get the bottom line up as the top line comes down, and I know which one is the more economically friendly one for society. Yeah, so, it's a pretty simple message here. Let's focus, whether it be government` But businesses need to be doing a lot of heavy lifting here as well. They need to be focusing on being more productive, more dynamic. They can't just be pointing the finger at the government in regard to expecting the government to do all the heavy lifting. We're all in this sort of stuff together. - What does next year look like for small businesses and for Kiwi's back pockets? - To get inflationary feedback in jail, you do need to have some economic pain. You do need to see firms margins start to contract. You need to see people stop spending. Asset prices do need to down on the other side, and we are going through the economic adjustment. But you some of this is a bit of yeah, there's an optimistic view here on the other side because we've got to look back and think about things that came fundamentally out a whack for a long time in regard to central banks using their interest rate levers far too much and it was a big contributor income inequality or wealth inequality, but it just turbocharged asset prices. You know, there are some basic things that are gonna take place going forwards, that we've gotta get reintroduced for Mr and Mrs C. Ash. You know businesses actually make real money as opposed to talking about capital gains and the prospect of exponential growth. Yeah, now the rubber tends to meet the road, you get to see the good businesses are going to do well over the next 2-3 years. Why? Because they're just good businesses. Investors now need to take real risks to make real money. - So there is a case for optimism here. It's not all doom and gloom? - When we go through proper economic times, ironically, it tends to be a lot more appetite for a bit of change. And what we're doing on a whole lot of areas, is we've sort of been kicking the can down the road in areas such as education. Does it look really right that we now spend more on New Zealand superannuation from what we do in terms of operational spend on education? But probably the most important thing that the Government could shift their focus to is away from demand stimulus fiscal policy, things such as subsidizing fuel. They need to get into the ins and outs of the New Zealand economy, which is supply-side capacity. you know, how do we make the New Zealand economy able to grow faster consistently year after year? - Cameron Bagrie there. New Zealand toy company Zuru has won a court case in the US which forces review website Glassdoor to reveal the identities of anonymous reviewers. - Zuru took the case against the US-based site after former employees left scathing reviews. Now Zuru wants to sue those reviewers for defamation right here in New Zealand. I asked barrister Chris Patterson whether this is an unusual case. - Ordinarily what would happen is you'd have a plaintiff in a defamation claim would issue proceedings in New Zealand, and then if they needed more information they'd ask the New Zealand Court to make the orders, even if it's against a third party like Glassdoor. And then they would then go to the US and see if they could get that order. They've bypassed that process and gone straight to an American magistrate judge and said, we want these orders for subpoenas, documents subpoenas requiring Glassdoor to hand over this information because we intend to sue. They haven't done it. They just say they're gonna do it. - I mean, why would they do that? I mean, how can an American judge rule on something that affects a New Zealand defamation case? - Okay, so the centre point here is that Glassdoor is a Californian company. - Okay. - And presumably the information they've got access to, at least in California, I mean, I don't know where the servers are, but they'll have access to it. And what the American laws provide for it is a committee kind of reciprocal judgement idea. Where they go we'll help in effectively giving information for the purposes of litigating in foreign territories, in this case New Zealand, and hope that countries like New Zealand would return the favour. - Quid pro quo. - Quid pro quo. - OK. So these reviews, if they were written anonymously, but if it was an honest opinion held by the reviewer of Zuru, doesn't that protect the writer? - Well, it could as a defence. Okay. So it's what I call an affirmative defence. So it would take a step back here, OK? The step's this, in New Zealand, unlike` Like, the U.S. isn't plaintiff-friendly when comes to defamation. - OK. - Because they've got a constitutional first amendment freedom of speech. - So is it easy to sue for defamation in New Zealand than in` - Much easier. OK. Alright. So Glassdoor, the review company, if they are forced to reveal the identities of who wrote those reviews, Zuru then comes here and launches the defamation proceedings here, So what does Zuru have to prove here to make a successful defamation? OK. Well, I guess the first thing is we've got to assume that these reviewers actually exist, that they're not fake reviews. - Well, that would make it hard, wouldn't it? - Make it pretty hard. And of course, you know, the issue with us is that the whole process of setting up an account on Glassdoor or any of these review sites doesn't require any real solid form of authentication. So they don't know if these people, A, actually exist, B, are actually here in New Zealand, you know, and they're actually not a competitor of Zuru of, you know, just engaged in smear campaign. But they don't know. And until there there's an attempt to identify, and there's only so much that Glassdoor can do and they can say, here's the account information that was set up. We can't say that true or not. And maybe they might even be able to provide some IP addresses which allow you to trace through where the user was at the time they set up the account and made the review. - Is it really worth pursuing that given that these could be fake reviews and given that there may not be a real person at the end of that IP address? - Well, let's think about what they're trying to achieve here. Well, what we'd like to think they're trying to achieve, and that is they've got a reputation that they say is of value, and that reputation has been, in their mind, unjustifiably attacked, and it's and it's costing them money. In the judgement, one of the founders stated or provided an affidavit saying, we tried to recruit a senior manager and they don't want the job because they had read the reviews, and that's a loss to them. - So is that enough of a loss? Because they have to prove like a monetary loss as part of the defamation proceedings. Is having to find another employee enough of a loss to justify defamation? - Well, I guess this is when the forensic accountants might come in. - Oh, OK, yeah. - And say this is what the cost is, because they've lost an opportunity. I mean, it's getting a little bit speculative, the loss of a chance. And of course, they've got the onus of proving loss. Zuru have to prove loss. You have to prove loss. But under our laws, which are very plaintiff-friendly, all that Zuru need to do is say there's been a publication, which there has on Glassdoor, it's defamatory, and those reviews, anyone reading them would say, 'Oh yeah, they're not very positive, you know, they're defamatory.' And then to be able to point to a defendant, and this is the idea of getting the information from Glassdoor, who the defendants would be, and then showing a loss. At that point, they've established everything, they need to do to get to get over the hurdle. - OK. - Then the onus shifts to the defence to make out a defence, if they can. - Do you think that Kiwis will be more worried about posting on these kinds of things? Should they take a step back and say, should I really type that in? - Well, my own view is, is that for a long time now, decades, the Internet has created a Wild West bastion with the keyboard warriors sitting in front of a screen thinking, I can say whatever I like and I can't be touched. It's cases like this that actually, I think, serve a good message out there that, well, you aren't actually necessarily that safe, so make sure that you're able to back up what you were going to say. Because if it turns out that it's not true or not your honest opinion or you don't have some other legal escape mechanism, then you should be held to task because the damage that these sorts of reviews can do to ` I mean, Zuru is a large international business. But for small New Zealand businesses, you know, I'm thinking of the one-person plumber who gets an unfair review and then that's the end of their livelihood. - So, you know, if you're posting out anonymous reviews, there needs to be more accountability, perhaps. - Well, absolutely. And he needs to be a more of a mature attitude where people go, if I'm not prepared to front up to someone and look them in the eye and say what it is that that I believe, then don't say it online. - Chris Patterson, thank you very much for your time. - Thank you. - All right. In a statement, Zuru co-founder Nick Mowbray said the reviews on Glassdoor were fraudulent and fake and, they believe, written by the same person. He said Zuru tried to work with Glassdoor to have the reviews removed, but it wasn't until they took legal action that it happened. Nick Mowbray did not confirm whether defamation action would now go ahead in New Zealand. - E whai ake nei, panellists Trish Sherson, Jason Walls and Khylee Quince dissect the political news of the week. - Plus, Green MP Ricardo Menendez March on why he thinks he'd be a better social development minister than Carmel Sepuloni. Trish Sherson, director of Sherson Willis PR, Khylee Quince, Dean of Law at AUT, and Newstalk ZB's deputy political editor, Jason Walls. Tena koutou katoa, nau mai, welcome to the show. Trish, let's start with you on climate change. We've heard from the experts ` climate action is urgent, but why are we so slow to act? - Well, I think it's human nature, isn't it? Until we see a clear and present danger, we just kind of kick the can down the road. It's interesting, there's a whole confluence of things coming together at the moment. We've seen this morning, the heatwaves in Europe, but we also have what's been described as sort of improvised chaos from governments across Europe who are also dealing with the energy crisis out of Russia. And the question there is, will that tip them into finally getting better at renewable energy? Is it a tipping point that` that will be useful there? In New Zealand, I think the one headline that we've all missed in the last few weeks was a study about how many of us are being killed prematurely because of air pollution. So it's not just the weather events that are impacting humans now in New Zealand, it's actually air pollution. So we need to get on and do some things. Whether we're going quickly enough will always be the question, I think. - Jason, do you think the direct impact Kiwis are experiencing right now, in terms of extreme weather, will speed up the process or the response? - Well, it's the argument that we all have, all the time. It's all political, right? And I think the government's done really well with He Waka Eke Noa, to get farmers on board, and actually, this process that they're doing, I think it's one of the best things that the government has done. They've actually not just used the stick for farmers. They're actually saying, here's the carrot, you need to figure this out yourself, because, at the end of the day, you know, you can't deny that agriculture is a massive part of the New Zealand economy and just slapping farmers over the head and saying you need to comply with what we've decided, as bureaucrats in Wellington, it just might not work. So having them decide as an agricultural unit, I think is something that they've done incredibly well and we've seen the genesis of that. It's going to be interesting to see where it lands, but I think that's a good start for New Zealand. - Khylee, climate change impacts Maori a lot more ` a little more, or a lot more, depends on who's looking ` but with regard to taonga, whakapapa, and of course wahi tapu, are current responses informed by matauranga Maori? And if they are, do they go far enough? - Well, good point. As Jason and Rod Carr have mentioned already, you know, we have terminology, like naming the plan He Waka Eke Noa, but we're not all in the same waka. We're not` We don't have the same foundational principles. We don't have the same long term view of protecting te tai ao for our uri, our mokopuna, our descendants and children and those in generations to come. But I think that those do need to come together because, as Dr Carr said, what we need is consensus for long term sustainable change. So I don't know whether it is currently informed or particularly informed by matauranga Maori, but, given not just the treaty partnership but also the demographic change likely to occur within the next two generations in Aotearoa, it's absolutely necessary. - Ka pai. Trish, there's some relief at the pump for Kiwis, but has the Government dug itself a hole on this issue? It's a really tricky one, isn't it? I think the government is desperately trying to one, say, do whatever they can to ease pressure on people's budgets. But they are also desperately trying to say that inflation has peaked, and it's` and it's` we're on the way down. I don't think that is the case. And in fact, if you look around at businesses at the moment, the next six months are going to be incredibly challenging. The big pressure release valve that the government is adamant it won't go near is actually letting in more workers. So, you know, the` the petrol ` holding the price, I think there was also a naive view from the Transport Minister. It's going to lower, he said, lower the prices of things like food. That is absolute nonsense. Prices are at record highs. Holding them there is not going to mean that price reductions flow through. It is the biggest issue for this government heading into the next election and it is also the issue that is the toughest for them to tackle. They've got the foot on the accelerator, putting more money in, whereas the Reserve Bank has got its foot on the brake, trying to, you know, hold things down with higher interest rates. But yeah, it's going to be very challenging. - Yeah. Jason, let's talk` go through the whole inflation korero. Have we been living in a cheap money dream for too long, do you think? - Oh, yeah. Well, when I started as a business reporter, many, many years` well, not too many years ago, but long enough ago, I was living in a world where inflation was well below the Reserve Bank's 1-3% band and basically, I thought that was normal. And I think a lot of people my age thought that was normal as well. And now we're seeing interest rates start to creep up. We're seeing the Reserve Bank having to respond to high inflation with higher interest rates. And I think a lot of people are discovering this for the first time. I mean, my parents will talk about, you know, when inflation was back up around, you know, in the early to late teens, and buying a house, you had an enormous interest rate bill. So it's as Cam Bagrie said, you know, this is something that we might have to learn to live with. But, you know, for the government, as Trish said, there is nothing that is going to be more of an election winner or an election loser than cost of living. And I do think it's sort of ironic that we're having this conversation about cost of living and climate change, where the government is saying, on one hand, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern has said it's her generation's nuclear free moment, but then the government turns around and whacks a $0.25 ` essentially, a subsidy ` on petrol. So you have to look at those two things and say, well, how much is a priority for climate change for the government or how much is a priority for cost of living? Because at the moment, I mean, yes, there is the argument around the subsidisation of public transport. But, you know, it pales in comparison to what we're seeing at the pump. - Kylie, is inflation and attempts to manage it getting in the way of the government's reform agenda? - I think it should be part of the Government's reform agenda and I think you flagged the right thing there, which is, it's not about controlling inflation, necessarily, but managing who bears the brunt of it. And there are there are sectors of our community, vulnerable people, Maori, Pasifika people, people on low wages and low household incomes, that are bearing the burden of this. And the fact that things like the fuel discount is` is popular, and` but it's not targeted and it's targeted, you know, targeted support that needs to happen and be part of that reform agenda, because it's reforming for a better Aotearoa for more flourishing communities, for a broader sector of the population. - Trish, do you agree with Cameron Bagrie that to get the inflation thief back in jail we need to cause some pain across New Zealand? - Well, I think that's right. We have been on a massive sugar rush and I saw Arthur Grimes, the former chair of the Reserve Bank, came out this weekend and he was highly critical of the Reserve Bank, that they were way too slow last year to pick this and to start moving interest rates up to try and get inflation under control. Showing my age, but I grew up in a time when, you know, inflation in the '70s got totally out of control and there were wage and price freezes. There were carless days, where you couldn't drive your car because of the oil shocks. And it feels to me like some of the, thinking now back to that thought about improvised chaos, we're back in that kind of reactionary mode and, to Khylee's point, we are not thinking about the structural reforms that are needed to really address this. - Thank you very much for your time and for joining us here on Newshub Nation this week, and that is our panel. Taihoa e haere, e te iwi. We'll be back right after the break. where our politicians get just five minutes to convince you of their best ideas. The government's unveiled new immigration settings this week, but according to the Green Party, it's just special power for the uber rich to purchase residency. Kairipoata Finn Hogan sat down with immigration spokesperson Ricardo Menendez March and asked him what he would do differently. - The rejigging of the investor visa category effectively retains the principle that residencies are there for purchase for the super wealthy. And I think, in the face of so many migrant workers have been here for many years still having no real pathways to residency, it is a bit of a slap in the face for those who are underpaid, have made really meaningful contributions, continue having no pathways. We would like to see a much more comprehensive auditing of the investments that are made, so that they past checks that means that they're ethical, complying with human rights, and that people are kept in a provisional visa until that audit has finished. - Won't adding more hoops to jump through. just stop investors coming to the country at a time when we do need them? - If we want people to be investing in productive and ethical businesses or avenues, we should have checks. - Just moving on to the cost of living payment that kicks in on August 1st. You say the criteria should be broadened. How much exactly? - We put an amendment on budget day to include superannuants and people on the benefit. The truth is that many people on the benefit, because of the debts that they have to the agency that is supposed to help them, there's about 50,000 people who are missing out on almost the winter energy payment amount. The rationale by the government to not include them was that they already get the winter energy payment. But we know that people on low incomes are facing massive cost of living pressures because the living payment isn't transformative, and it won't lift people substantially out of poverty. But if we're meaningful about supporting everybody, people on the benefit should have been included. - OK. But it's costing $814 million to reach 2.1 million people. If you broaden it in the criteria that you suggest, how much would it cost? - It would actually end up saving money on that amount people are, at the moment, requiring to go for things like hardship grants and debt. At the moment, people on the benefit ` because their benefits don't cover enough, they need to be` - You're saying might move money from one area to another. - Effectively, but you would end up saving money as well on all the time that staff at MSD are having to spend just delivering food grants. I think we should have a system that we're not pushing tens of thousands of people each month, just calling MSD just to get an extra top up to survive. I think we should be having incomes that allow people to live with dignity. And the cost of living payment ` it's a significant, but short-term intervention that should have been brought in to those who need it the most. - Just on benefits, benefit raises have kicked in this year, but you say they don't go far enough. Where would you set them? - Fair Futures did really good research where they show that a parent with three kids needs at least an extra $300 a week to survive. I think that's something that we should be exploring. And again, by lifting the benefits, what we're effectively doing as well is reducing the extra top ups that people need in order to survive. - They're being wiped out by inflation, which is 7.3% at the moment. Do you think we should go back to indexing them to inflation, for example? - I think the indexation could be about either/or, whichever means that the rise in benefits is higher. The indexation is not there to provide a meaningful lift. That's just the catch up, right? So this is what we need ` those additional increases to benefits to ensure that we're recognising that people still do not have enough. Half a million New Zealanders are in debt with the Ministry of Social Development because their income is not enough. I think we want to stop that. - Could you just tell me why you think rent controls are essential? - Despite house prices actually going down in places like Auckland, rents continue to be really high. Landlords shouldn't just be able to arbitrarily put up rents at the amount that they decide. We think that there should be policies set in place that dictates how much landlords should be able to put up rents by, and into a level that allows people's incomes to catch up so that no one is paying more than 25% or 30% of their income in rent. - But what evidence base are you working from that rent controls actually work? Because looking internationally, the evidence seems pretty overwhelming that they often backfire and don't deliver for people. - In some cities where rent controls have been introduced, there's been issues with the supply of housing. I think we need to focus both on supply and on having rent controls. We've been strong advocates and saying that we need far more public housing, and that we need to encourage density done well. So I think we need to do both. - OK, not to belabour the point, but the economist who chaired the Nobel Prize Committee described rent controls as 'the best way to destroy a city other than bombing'. Respectfully, why shouldn't we listen to him? - Respectfully, I would disagree with those statements, and I think rent controls are one tool in the toolkit. We need to be also addressing supply of public housing. We know that if we do both and we increase the supply of homes that actually have what we call income-related rent subsidies will ensure that no one is paying more than 25% of their income in rent. That should be what we should be gearing towards. - It's the AGM this weekend for the Greens. What can we expect? Any big announcements? - I think we're looking forward to some really robust conversations about remits going forward around, for example, future negotiations of the party. - Is James Shaw's leadership safe? We've got these persistent rumours that he's going to be challenged. - I think that conversation happens every year, and ultimately, we do have the opportunity to discuss issues around the direction of the party, and for us as MPs to directly address our members. So I am looking forward to those conversations over the weekend. - Finn Hogan there with The Pitch. Wrapping up with more on our climate change theme this week, its impact is already being felt for many East Coasters as torrential rain hit the region this week, causing State Highway 35 to close. Maori communities living on the coast are all too familiar with how disruptive a change in climate can be on industries and communities living in those areas. Joining us now to talk about the impact this week's wild weather has had on his community is Opotiki District Councillor Louis Rapihana. E te rangatira, tena koe. Thank you for joining us. Let's start. What is the latest update or the situation there on the coast right now? - Yes, kia ora ra, tatou katoa. State Highway 35 is still closed at this stage. The team on the ground are working hard to stabilise it as much as possible so that we can start making traffic flow down on to one lane. But we still don't quite have a timeframe for that. We were hoping to have something done in post by today, but the team are working hard here. And I ask please, whanau, don't go to the sites. The last thing we need is congestion there, which has been occurring because there's misinformation that the road is open and that people are getting through. We need everyone to just stay calm and be reassured things are under control. - The response seems to be quite a well-planned one. I mean, there was statements from the Civil Defence days before the road actually gave way. But in terms of how the road is looking right now, I mean, an entire road eroded by the Motu River. Is that a result of climate change? - Absolutely. And it's also a result of how we are utilising the resources around us or the lack of looking after the resources. And that's something that we need to be looking at going forward once the road has been stabilised and re-tarred and all that stuff. - That's the thing` Louis, that's the thing, though ` how do you fix something like that when it's continuously eroded? It seems like patch up work. Is that a good enough response ` just patching up a road or re-fixing a road that you kind of know is going to continue to erode by a river, a raging river? - Absolutely not. You know, that's right. We can't do a patch up job, which is why in this situation, the job needs to be done properly. And that's why it's going to take a long time for this to occur. But, you know, we need to go back, once we have access to the coast. We want access for our people straight away or as soon as possible. And then we'll go down the track of finding who's accountable for this and why has this occurred and how do we stop it from happening in the future. I've spoken with Waka Kotahi. I've spoken with Regional Council. We've got plans in place to have those conversations and get work started to rectify all the damages for 35. - You talked about it coming down to climate change as a result of what we're seeing there in Te Tairawhiti and the Eastern Bay of Plenty Regions in terms of the weathering of the roads. But what evidence do you have to base that fact on? - Well, the amount of rain that we are getting these days is bigger than it has ever been. You know, we're used to hearing this is a one-in-100-year event. We're now having that this is a one-in-one-week event where there's so much rain coming down. On top of that, you know, our industries, forestry and everything else, impacted on that climate as well and the environment that we live in, because there's so much water that hasn't been able to be soaked up because of the pines that are growing in our forest. But, you know, these are the things that we all need to look at. On top of that, you know, the rising levels of the sea. You know, we've had a lot of storms over the 35 of late, in the highway area where the beach is actually coming on to the State Highway 35. So that's another place of interest we need to be looking at. How do we rectify these, and also how do we as a community, Te Whanau a Apanui and the wider Opotiki District, contribute to making a difference here for climate change? How do we also hold ourselves responsible for how we practice in our day-to-day lives and the things that we do? - Yeah, in terms of planning` future proofing and planning for communities on the entire East Coast and in the Eastern Bay of Plenty, how do you plan to deal with climate change when it's unpredictable, but also in terms of the impact climate change will have on whanau, whanaungatanga, whakapapa, you know, in the extreme of things, Maori values that we hold tightly to, and especially in those areas, Louis? - Oh, absolutely. You know, can I really answer that question? I don't know. But what we can do is continue having the conversations or engage with those people that we need to engage with, i.e, the government councils. We all need to come together on this. Iwi, hapu. Iwi and hapu know the area. They know the environment. Those are the most important people that need to be having conversations. The governments and the Council need to be listening to iwi and Maori on the environment and how we need to go forward with this. - Is there a likelihood that not having a road, a main highway, you know, a part of the future planning for climate change on the East Coast? Like actually being able to live without those key roads, those key routes in and out of Te Tairawhiti and the Eastern Bay of Plenty? - Well, absolutely. And, you know, that's what we need to be looking at in this ` is actually how do we` how do we make the coast sustainable? How do we ensure that there's services on the coast so that if these kind of things do happen, they don't need to worry? But we don't have those in place at this stage. We don't have any of, you know, shops or major shops or anything like that on the coast, where they can be self-sufficient and self-sustainable on the coast. And, hey, you know, Te Whanau a Apanui will be more than pleased to see the state highway going, but we still need to be accessing other services outside somehow. - Yeah. And do we have a timeframe on when the State Highway 35 will be reopened? - Not yet. The latest, or the last report we were looking at, was weeks ` seven to eight weeks. But, you know, we can change that, hopefully. But once we know after this weekend and then, of course, next week, we have another downpour of rain of 100mm, I think it was, expected in the eastern Bay of Plenty. So we need to see how that all pans out before we can actually give a timeframe on this. - E pari atu me nga whakaaro nui ki a koutou. We're sending our well-wishes to all of you. Brace yourselves and take care of yourselves down there on the East Coast. Louis Rapihana, tena koe. That's our show for this week. Thank you for joining us. Kia haumaru te haere, and we'll see you again next weekend. Captions by Able. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 This show was brought to you by the New Zealand on Air Public Interest Journalism Fund.