- And I'm Simon Shepherd. Nau mai. Welcome to Newshub Nation. Ructions ahead of election year ` the latest from parliament on the Green Party leadership upset. - Digital editor Finn Hogan reveals the significant power shift in New Zealand politics online. - And from Beijing to North Shore to parliament ` the latest in our Backstory series. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 First up today ` upheaval in the Green Party, as James Short fights for his political survival. - Our senior reporter in parliament, Conor Whitten, has been there all week, and he joins us now. Morena, Conor. So far, only James Shaw has put his hand up. Is there anyone else in the race? - Well, Oriini, the field is getting smaller and smaller by the day. Julie Anne Genter is the latest MP to publicly rule herself out of the running. It means, right now, Green MP Teanau Tuiono is the only one publicly considering a run. And I can tell you that, behind the scenes, the activist wing of the party is very much pushing for him to do just that. But that was only after their top two candidates, Chloe Swarbrick and Elizabeth Kerekere, decided they weren't going to put their hand up this time round. One by one, all week, Green MPs have been publicly ruling themselves out of the running, but there is still one more name to watch ` Jan Logie hasn't said anything all week. She still hasn't commented publicly since the vote at the AGM, and until she comes out and says it publicly, she is still one to watch. She could satisfy that activist wing of the party. She is from the left of the caucus. And until she says anything about it publicly, well, you can't rule her out of this leadership race. - All right, Conor. What are you hearing around parliament, especially amongst your Green Party sources? - Yeah. Well, among the caucus and among their staffers here at parliament, there was a state of shock last weekend when James Shaw wasn't re-elected at the AGM, although one MP told me that they had heard whispers of the campaign against James Shaw ahead of that vote at the AGM. I asked them whether they were involved in that campaign. ahead of that vote at the AGM. I asked them whether they were They told me, 'Absolutely not.' Now, the delegates who voted against Shaw also say no one from caucus was involved. You can kind of see that in the fact that there isn't any challenger stepping forward. And the question is ` if nobody does run against him, has Shaw done enough to silence his critics? We saw him this week admit that he hadn't got the balance right between being the Greens co-leader and being a minister. I asked one of the delegates who voted against him whether they had seen enough from Shaw. They said they still haven't made up their mind. - Conor, the Green Party - Conor, the Green Party leadership has been quite stable for several years. What's suddenly happened? - Well, this is two really influential factions in the Green Party flexing their muscle. They are the GreenLeft Network and the Young Greens. They were instrumental in helping Marama Davidson get elected to the co-leadership in 2018, and they have been growing in influence ever since. They are from the far-left, radical side of the party. They see James Shaw as too close to the government, too afraid to criticise Labour and not doing enough on climate change. There are even some in the party who are considering whether they should rip up their agreement rip up their agreement with Labour and walk away from government altogether. Now, that raises serious questions about stability going into an election in 2023. Now, that raises serious questions Labour will almost certainly need the Greens to govern next year, and you can bet that National and Act will be asking serious questions about stability in 2023. - OK, so what's the process from here? - Well, nominations close on Thursday. There's still time for anyone to put their hand up until then. And don't rule out someone from outside of parliament putting their hand up to run for co-leader. Russell Norman did that in 2006 and successfully won that contest then. The worst of all worlds for everyone is really if nobody runs against James Shaw in this next vote. For his critics, it means there's no chance for a change of direction, and, for Shaw, there's no chance to beat out another candidate, to really put these leadership questions to bed. Oriini, if that happens, well, these leadership questions will probably still linger, and we could do all of this again in 2023. - Mm. Conor Whitten live there from parliament. Tena koe. - So, a party divided ` former Green List MP Kevin Hague knows that party well. - He was in parliament from 2008 to 2016, and he ran against James Shaw for the leadership in 2015. - Well, Kevin joins us live now from Greymouth. Tena koe, Kevin. Thanks for your time. You stood against James Shaw in the past. Is he the right person to be co-leader? - You know, some people might be surprised to hear me say it, but I think James absolutely is the right person to be the leader, and he has my support, - Why do you say that? - Look, I think he's actually done a really good job of taking the party into government and achieving things while in government. You know, I think he's been a good minister. He's been able to achieve some things that are really difficult to achieve, such as that consensus of parties such as that consensus of parties around climate change, establishing the Climate Change Commission. That's really necessary architecture for the kind of climate response that we need to make as a country, and it's really James who deserves the credit for that. You know, he has actually achieved more as a minister than every previous minister, every previous government put together before him. - So if he's done such a good job, why is a faction out to get him? - Look, I wouldn't` I wouldn't describe what's going on as being a faction out to get him. I think there is` there is a disagreement going on here, and disagreements are normal human things. And the Green Party has a culture of being able to resolve disagreements in a healthy way, and that's really what should be going on here. They` They have as one of their core principles good decision-making, and that means that when the Greens set out to make a decision, they try and do so by consensus, by minimising and resolving disagreements, and the same applies to other kinds of disagreements about political direction or particular issues. And that's, I think, what James is alluding to in the comments that he's made this week about not perhaps having quite got the balance right. I think, you know, those who do have some dissatisfaction with political direction or something that James has or hasn't done, you know, they have an onus to raise their concerns in a healthy way with a view to having them resolved. And equally, the party leadership ` and I don't just mean James have a responsibility to create good processes, where disagreements can be aired and resolved, and that's what I think we really need to see now. - Right. I mean, is this a good process, I guess? Because this was supposedly a surprise to all the caucus members, and we don't have anybody putting Because this was supposedly a surprise to all the caucus members, and we don't have anybody putting their hand up to take on James in that co-leadership position. - Yeah, I think` I think that's right, Simon, that` that` Um... I'm` I'm certainly disappointed that concerns were raised in this way. This is not the kind of healthy way I would expect to see disagreements aired in the Greens, and so I think what we need to do now is take a step back and say, 'OK, well, there are there are people who have concerns,' and certainly the ones I've heard and not particularly concerns about James but about, you know, the political stance of the party, you know, whether the government is moving fast enough on climate change issues that are broader than James. And the fact that those disagreements. - But on that` - Yeah. - Oh, sorry. Just on that` - I was just going to say Simon` - Yeah. - Yeah. - (CHUCKLES) Sorry. Do you know what` - What I was going to say is that means that the Greens really have got to set up a process for hearing what those grievances are and resolving them if they possibly can be resolved. And it just seems to me that the, you know, the co-leadership is being seen as a proxy for that process, and I'd rather deal with those disagreements or grievances more directly, and that's Green culture. - Is it impossible for James to come back from this? Even if he gets the nod for this co-leadership this year, does it mean that he's tainted for next year and the party really has to move on? - Oh, no, I don't think so. I mean, I think` I mean, as I say, I think James clearly is the person who has the attributes for the co-leadership. You know, he's been a great performer, actually, I think James clearly is the person who has the attributes for the co-leadership. for the Greens as part of government. And I think the fact that there have been disagreements about political direction and speed of` of` of change, tho` those disagreements don't necessarily need to taint James. I mean, I` as I say, I think they're only indirectly related to him. - But` - And what really has to happen is the Green Party has to create that forum for resolving those. - Sure. - And then James will be free of them. - But is it an unrealistic expectation on behalf of, say, the Young Greens and the GreenLeft Network that James hasn't done enough while in government, and yet, you know, Labour has this huge mandate, I mean, and it's by the grace of Labour that the Greens actually around the table? - Yeah. I think the grace of Labour is probably the operative phrase there, right? So` So, in the last term of parliament, Labour needed the Greens votes, and so the Greens, I think, were clearly able to demonstrate that they had achieved an awful lot as a government partner, and a lot of Green policy was implemented. In this term of parliament, Labour doesn't need the Green votes, and so the leverage that James and Marama have been able to bring to that cabinet table, to the business of government, has been so much less, so it's to be expected that their ability to implement Green policy from that position is so much less. - Yeah. - So there is a real question ` should the Greens have accepted the deal? I'm not sure. But the fact is that the Green Party as a whole agreed to accept that deal. It wasn't some backroom deal that James made, and it seems unreasonable to now pin the responsibility for that solely on James. It's a collective responsibility. - Sure. You're saying that the Green Party has to find a way to not really air its dirty laundry. That's what you're saying. You want a process which doesn't really involve the co-leadership about the grievances of the way that the Green Party is behaving in parliament at the moment about the grievances of the way and in government. Does all this damage their credibility with voters, and is it a risk going into election year? - I think, yeah` I mean, I think that, in another party, that this would largely have occurred either behind closed doors or in a way that was entirely expected by voters. I think the fact that it's the Greens probably is attracting public attention in this way, I mean, other parties don't And I think voters will see this disagreement and assume that it's a sign of some fundamental schism in the party, whereas, actually, disagreement whereas, actually, disagreement and the resolution of disagreement is a normal thing in the Greens, whereas, actually, disagreement and it's important that the Greens actually communicate that to voters to explain that, of course, people have different views, and it's really important that all of those views are heard and that the party tries to find ways of reconciling them. So I think there is an image problem there, because that isn't how most voters are used to understanding disagreement. But I think the longer this drags on, so a contested co-leadership or another co-leadership where we open nominations, is a` is a big factor. You know, those are damaging for the Greens. The best outcome for the Green Party is to see James reconfirmed in his role, with a strong mandate, and that's certainly what I support. - Kevin Hague, thank you so much for your time this morning. Right. If you've got a news tip, get in touch ` we're on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram, or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. - E whai ake nei ` does he really have the horsepower for his hefty portfolios? Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister David Clark joins us live. Plus ` Finn Hogan, he joins us to reveal a significant power shift in New Zealand politics online. From reining in the supermarkets From reining in the supermarkets to airline refunds and growing the digital economy, Minister David Clark has a lot on his consumer affairs plate and he joins us now. Tena koe, Minister. Thanks for your time. Let's start with supermarkets. You're proposing huge penalties for them. $10 million or 10% of turnover for an effective period if they break this new code of conduct that's being drafted. What would they have to do to incur a $10 million fine? - Look, the detail of all of those kinds of things are being carefully worked through, I can assure you. We're looking at` Obviously, we've put in place a` We've announced that we going to have a Grocery Commissioner who will have responsibility for the sector, much like the Telecommunications Commissioner currently in place, that people know where they can go to if they've got a concern. - Sure. - And we want to make sure that there's a robust regime in place. In the UK, they have turnover-based penalties and we think that it's well worth digging into. - Right. OK. So, you're not committing to that? I mean, that's what you're proposing in your Cabinet document. - We certainly` It's- It's there for a reason. We are digging into when which particular payment will be the appropriate one, what kinds of breaches` You know, it's important to have a regime that has lighter penalties for things that are not intentional, and firmer penalties if it's clear someone in the market is behaving in a completely irresponsible way. - When you're looking at those overseas jurisdictions, like, Australia has a $10 million consumer affairs fine, you're talking about the UK ` you're talking about the UK ` what kind of grievances or what kind of, sorry, offences incur that? - Well, I think deliberate and repetitive breaches. - All right. Could that accidentally deter competition? If you've got a small local start up here and they're looking at a $10 million fine, are they going to say, 'That's too risky for me?' - Well, in the legislation we're pulling together, it's going to be very clear that the two that are designated in the first instance are going to be the Woolworths crowd and the Foodstuffs, and those two will be the supermarket duopoly. If others become bigger in the marketplace in the future, they could be designated` - They would be specifically named, those two particular` - Yes, in the law. - In the law? OK. - They will be in a schedule at the outset. - In the law? OK. So this law is designed to apply to the majors. - Right. And so, a start up won't be named, as you say, in the law. OK. Have you had any interest in setting up, or indicated to you, in setting up another chain, either from overseas or locally? - What I` What` I can describe a number of people who are interested. So, Costco is setting up here. We know that. They're already` They've had, in fact, they say, the biggest interest in their sign ups in Auckland for any of their ones they've set up in the world. So they're going to come in, I think, we will notice them coming. Aldi across the Tasman there, they have made no commitments but, you know, they've entertained the conversation. - Right. - We'll watch with interest. We've also seen, within New Zealand, The warehouse have starting to put some, some offerings out there and they have gone into the space before. I know that they're looking at their options, and the likes of Night and Day, Circle K, those smaller outfits, certainly, there have been conversations about what their plans are, because they see an opportunity now that wasn't there before. - The government has been touting its supermarket reforms as a way of answering the cost of living. But the cost living crisis is now. Is it a bit misleading to say that you are using supermarkets as a weapon to tackle cost of living crisis, which is happening right now, because these reforms won't take` well, will take many years? - You know, we're not saying that this is going to fix the cost of living overnight. You know, that pressure is on You know, that pressure is on New Zealanders from the global inflationary environment, in the fuel area, there's a wide in the Budget, you know, the 1st of April changes for students, for pensioners and so forth. - But I did see the Prime Minister saying that the supermarket reforms are` - This is part of it. This is part of it. But there's a wide range of things we're doing - This is part of it. This is part to help ease the burden, the pressures on Kiwi families. - How will it actually bring down the shopping bill? - One of the things we've observed already, interestingly, is that the supermarkets have signed up to a whole lot of things they didn't sign up to before. And with the market studies going on, they've voluntarily started to get rid of the restrictive covenants that were blocking competition, they've signed up to price rollbacks. Now, those are short term. We're interested in fixing this longer term, but they have signed up to them. They've signed up to a grocery` a watchdog. - OK. So, the pressure is on. - The pressure is on them. And so, that is having an effect already. But actually, they still, you know, the analysis says they're making $1,000,000 a day in super profits, every single day. That's the most conservative estimate the Commerce Commission put out there. 365 million a year in super profits, beyond what you'd normally expect. So there's plenty of room for improvement. - All right, let's talk about another area that you're responsible. This is buy now, pay later. It's taken off in the last couple of years. Budget advisers have told me that people are choosing between putting kai on the table or making their buy now pay later commitments. Are you addressing that? - It is something that I'm hoping to make announcements on in the next month or two. It is` We've consulted on it and we've got strong feedback from the public. Buy now, pay later ` I understand the Australians have taken a decision that they are going to regulate it as a credit contract. And that's the question in front of us ` what kind of regulation is appropriate around this? You exactly right. It has You exactly right. It has taken off and it's challenging the other credit cards, right? So, it's got an innovative place in the market. It's putting some competition out there. But actually, if it's causing harm, it may take more robust oversight. - MB did, you know, do consultation on this last year in December. You said earlier this month you'd be taking it to Cabinet in July. Are you taking it to Cabinet in July? What are you recommending? - As I say, I'm hoping to make announcements in the coming period. We're not far away. We're not far away. - Would you be incorporating it into the new triple CFA, the Credit Consumer Finance? - That's certainly one of the leading options. - Because, they say` Because it seems to be a loophole, at the moment, in the current credit laws for these organisations. They don't have to do anything in terms of addressing whether I can afford what I'm signing up for. - Yeah, and let's remember that a lot of these are quite small purchases in the first instance. I think where it gets concerning is where people, for example, take out several of these cards or they start to build up the amounts quickly. And so those are exactly the problems we're working through, because what we want to do is make sure we have a robust response that doesn't have a loophole. - Yes. So what about, you know, could you restrict what people are putting on these buy now, pay laters, like a liquor store recently or that like a liquor store recently or that was an example of where they were offering liquor on an Afterpay, or a buy now, pay later scheme. - Yes. - I mean, is that acceptable? - Some in the market are saying that's completely unacceptable. And I said at the time you know this does nothing to buy social licence for these products and I'm very glad that that particular store said they're going to take another look at that because I'm very uncomfortable with that kind of thing. - OK. Could that be` Could you suggest a range of products and services which are not going to be allowed to be a part of this? - Again, I think we need to be very careful how we do it. Credit cards, for example, at the moment can be used for exactly this purpose, and they have quite high interest rates on them, credit cards. I think we need to be thoughtful and we need to get this right. - All right, let's talk another part of your portfolio. It's between you and the Minister of Transport, but it's airline refunds. So civil aviation laws are before parliament right now, they're in their second reading. But there's no change on making airlines refund tickets for all cancellations within that legislation. Why not? - It's a matter of striking a balance. Obviously, there's commercial contracts. If you put certain commercial obligations on a company, that'll increase prices overall. If you put certain commercial Right? So there's a balance being struck there. That, as you say, strictly sits in the Minister of Transport's bailiwick. But I'm very interested in it. We've seen, through the COVID period, a whole lot of people who face a situation where they lost their flight opportunities and we put up a scheme where half a billion dollars has been refunded or sits there in credit for Kiwi consumers. Really proud of that. It was before my time, but I think we did the right thing there. We do need to look out for consumers who are at risk here, and we need to make sure the rules are clear and that they are stuck to. - OK. I mean, your predecessor, Kris Faafoi, said that these rules need to be made more consumer friendly. I mean, surely this is one way to do it, and the reason I say that is that because in the EU and the US, you can get a refund for no matter what the cancellation is. - Yeah. And again, that legislation is going through right now and being debated. It does sit with the Minister of Transport, but I agree. - But there's nothing in that bill right now. The second reading of that bill has nothing about changing this, does it? - No. We've still got the committee stages ahead, where these things will be picked apart in the parliament, and I trust that democratic process to get it right. - Yeah, but would you be advocating for it to change in that process? - I've got an ongoing conversation with the Minister of Transport on this to make sure that we get that right. - Because a lot of Kiwis have had a lot of disruption over the last two and a half years, and it's ongoing right now, and it's ongoing right now, especially with weather-related events. You know, we're seeing so-called climate change events ` you know, they are climate change events ` disrupting everybody, and yet, you know, people have no recourse in terms of refunds. - There are` I mean, there are certainly rules around this. The conditions on the tickets have to be clear. You know, we have seen the airlines, you know, Air New Zealand and so on, step up, do the refunds and so on, where it's appropriate. So` - But they don't do refunds for weather cancellations. They provide credits or a refund if you paid for a refundable ticket. - Correct. And I think that's why we're having a look at it, and we need to make sure we get it right. It does strictly sit with the Minister of Transport. I'll come back to that. But I think we do need to be really careful around this and consumers need to be really careful to be sure exactly what they've signed up for. - All right. One of the of your other portfolios, digital economy ` and this is a big opportunity for New Zealand. In 2020, the digital technology sector contributed 7.4 billion to the economy. In the last budget, you just got $20 million over four years to help grow the economy. Is that enough? - Look, I think one of the really important things that's under development is the digital ITP, the Industry Transformation Plan, a much closer working relationship with industry to set out priorities. Industry will be really clear ` certainly in my visits with them over recent years ` skills, availability of skills, accessibility of skills is their first priority; so, you know, the changes we've made in immigration to have a clear pathway for senior talent to come into New Zealand to coach and support the development of talent in New Zealand; the changes that are being made around how we train our young people and retraining opportunities ` those are the critical things. But the work that we've done in the budget, I would say, is also very important. The support for software as a service that's gone in ` that's part of that 20 million you mentioned ` and the New Zealand story, telling our story overseas to attract capital. We've gone and worked with the industry and their priorities. - Yeah. Are you doing enough, though? And I'm going to bring in the tourism analogy here. Tourism, to get it back on its feet, has a $200 million reset plan, and earlier this year, your colleague Stuart Nash announced 49 million of that just for South Island businesses, to get back on their feet. And while tourism is a major export earner, tech is forecast to be even bigger than that by 2030. - Yeah. - Are you prioritising it enough? - I will certainly be advocating as we go into the next budget. We're coming up to the finalisation of our digital strategy. We'll have, then, the first New Zealand ever digital strategy, so we will have a clear plan for where we want to take that sector. The ITP is now maturing. We're working with industry to prioritise the actions in that. So I think, you know, we're at the start of this journey, and we will see more investment over time. - Well, if you're at the` - But also, let's see` these companies are succeeding. They are doing very well. - But they could do better, and they could go offshore. So if you're` You say we're at the start of this plan; other countries are further down this track with AI strategies and other such, but in the gaming sector in particular, as you know, Australia's tax incentives, which are up to 40%, launched on July 1. We were sitting here a year ago We were sitting here a year ago saying you are closely looking at all those settings; are you just still closely looking at them? - Well, we're having conversation with the industry. The industry is very clear that what's needed is a package of support. They're very supportive, for example, of the code initiative in Dunedin, where you've got support for emerging talent. That Australian tax incentive that's been announced is not yet into law ` they're still finalising the detail of it ` and it's important that we look at that. The industry itself says the answer is not necessarily matching it, but it's making sure we've got the right package of things. Industry development is really key. We're going to look at whether the screen production grants are a viable way into this or whether there's another way that would get us there quicker and better for the interests of the industry. - And while you're looking at that, are we going to lose companies overseas? You know, they report that they are` You know, they report that they are` some of the major game player developers are looking at going to Brisbane or going to Melbourne to have those kinds of discussions. - Yes. They` I mean, the ones I've spoken to have been very clear; they're not about to shift their New Zealand operation, but they are looking at whether there's opportunity in Australia, and that's why we're absolutely taking this seriously. - Are we going to lose talent? - I'm hopeful that we will continue to build talent here. We've got a rapidly growing industry. You know, this industry is just` it's great from sustainable jobs, high-value, low-carbon, and the scale` - When can that industry` Just finally, last` When can that industry expect some announcement around this? Give us a time. - I am going to struggle to give you an exact time. That's a conversation with my colleagues. But I can tell you it's happening. - Hopefully soon for them. OK, Minister, thank you very much for your time. Thanks for coming in the studio. - Thanks, Simon. Up next ` Dan Bidois, Dr Lara Greaves and Sue Bradford; our panel dissects the political week. Plus ` when good online politics go bad. Digital editor Finn Hogan with who's up, who's down online. The Green Party leadership contest has played out less on camera and more online, with MPs turning to Facebook and not the media to communicate with voters. - I caught up with digital editor Finn Hogan and started by asking him, who's up and who's down online? - Well, Simon, I never thought I'd see the day, but the reigning queen of Facebook, Jacinda Ardern, has been deposed and not just to second place, all the way down to fourth. That puts Christopher Luxon, Winston Peters and Simon O'Connor ahead of her. But if we look at the top ten overall, it's still all opposition. So not a pretty picture for government currently. - Alright, simple question. What happened? - Well, look, spiking crime and soaring inflation are only ever good for the opposition. There's a lot of difference between Winston Peters and Christopher Luxon, There's a lot of difference but they're fundamentally selling the same thing. We're going to sort the economy out and we're going to be tough on crime and in the current climate, voters a very receptive to that. There's also a more simple explanation. Ardern's been lot more quiet on Facebook over the past two weeks, but that is in of itself quite notable because she's usually one of the most online MPs. - All right, but the PM's been so dominant for so long on social media. Is this a way or a sign of the way things are trending for her? Well, I mean, there's important context here. This is a measure of overall engagement, which is basically likes, comments, which is basically likes, comments, It's not necessarily a measure of support. Just because someone clicks on your content doesn't mean they're going to vote for you. And if we look at the year to date, the Prime Minister is still very far ahead of the competition overall. And I think it's also interesting if we drill down on her main rival, Christopher Luxon's actually lost a Christopher Luxon's actually lost a significant amount of followers over the past two weeks, which makes me suspect some of the enthusiasm and the wind in the opposition's sails is more about dissatisfaction with the Government than it is excitement about Luxon as a candidate. -Could Luxon's Hawaii via Te Puke gaffe have anything to do with that? - Yeah. I mean, look, I don't think it's going to do any serious damage to him long term. Every MP takes holidays and it seemed like an honest mistake at his end. But I do think it's worth dwelling on why the story so quickly took on a life of its own. I think Luxon's trip to Hawaii during a time where so many Kiwis are struggling to make ends meet during a miserable winter, struck a sour note with some voters, particularly because he's been pressing so hard on the economic pain being experienced by average, everyday Kiwis. And this was kind of a public reminder that multi-millionaire former Air NZ CEOs aren't necessarily sharing in that pain. - All right. Let's look at the party dynamics. It can't have been a good few weeks for the Greens. - Well, actually the Green Party is - Well, actually the Green Party is doing better than most times we've checked in on them. They're actually in third place overall and engagement. If there's one thing leadership drama is good for Simon, it's clicks. Just ask National about that. But social media has actually been pretty central to the way this all played out. Chloe Swarbrick didn't go to media, went straight to Facebook to say that she wasn't going to contest the leadership. James Shaw posted a lengthy statement to members directly to Facebook and even talked in that status about how he needed to use social media more. And I think it's because social media allows MPs to bypass us in the media completely and speak directly to the public. Like, for all of its faults, Social media and Facebook are very democratic methods of communication. And the Green Party, as we can see, takes democratic concerns extremely seriously. - All right. Just before we go, a quick honourable mention. - OK. I've gotta shout out, Chris Penk, for some very effective, playful attacks on social media, particularly using memes. And it's really easy to have big boomer kind of cringe energy on Facebook as a politician. But Penk is quite good at dodging that, though, to be honest, I really hope he makes another tweet gaffe where he uses a particular four letter word and Winston Peters in the same tweet because it makes political Twitter a lot funnier for a weekend. And to be honest, gaffes like that keep me in a job. - Absolutely. Digital editor Finn Hogan, thanks very much. - Thanks very much, Simon. - Hi. I'm joined now by our panel, former national MP Dan Bidois former Green MP Sue Bradford, and senior lecturer in New Zealand politics at the Te Whare Wananga o Tamaki Makaurau, Auckland University, Dr. Lara Greaves. Tena koutou, nau mai, welcome to the show. - Kia ora. - So we will start with all of you. - So we will start with all of you. And on the topic of the Green Party, obviously. Sue, at the start of the week you said the Green Party has lost it's way under Shaw. Does that extend to Marama as well? - Well, it's hard not to say that. Actually there is a co-leadership, and the leadership responsibility does lie with both of them, and it's horribly patronising to say it doesn't. But I think it's really unquestionable that James Shaw has taken the leadership position` the leading position within that pairing ever since he became leader in 2015. the leading position within that pairing ever since he became leader in 2015. That's certainly my apprehension from outside the party, that he has really been the leader. And Marama does a lovely job, but not in quite the same way. - Yeah. - And he's a very dominating character. OK. Some positive words earlier from Kevin Hague, Dan, in terms of` Quite strong, in terms of actually supporting James Shaw, and went as far as to say he's actually delivered more than any other minister in government on the issue of climate change. You agree with that? -Well, look, I agree that James is certainly he's got wide appeal and he's worked very, very hard on the issue of climate change. So it's really interesting to see Kevin come out and say that. Hey, look, all of this really doesn't look good for the Green Party. This is not really what they want heading into an election year, and certainly this is not what Labour wants either. Of course, on current polling they will need the Green Party to get back into government. So this is a little bit of a mess. I think there is an opportunity of course for other parties like National with the Blue Greens to, you know, possibly depending on the outcome of this, to appeal to some of those Green voters in the centre that wants a James Shaw approach. They want action on climate change but just don't want the far left stuff that goes with it. - Right. Lara, is he too soft on climate says, you know, or are the green members being too rigid? - It's a tricky one because I've been thinking more about the work that we've done. Some work profiling psychologically, who Green voters are, and National will always go, 'Oh, well they're a bit unstable.' And kind of harking back to that 2014 ad that we all remember for the Eminem music, but actually at the end it depicted Labour in a boat rowing in a whole bunch of different directions with minor parties. And I always teach that in my classes as this is how people view any infighting on the left and within the Greens. But I'm not sure that actually Green But I'm not sure that actually Green voters are that concerned about that. And the kind of people who would And the kind of people who would vote for the Greens I think are a little bit more open to there being a bit more conflict and a little bit more fragmentation than what people on the right are, just from a political perspective. - Yeah, Sue, so who do you back for the role? I mean, we heard earlier also from Connor Whitten saying that the only person who hasn't actually said anything at all in terms of her intentions or not, you know, in not wanting to run for the role, is Jan Logie, who are you backing? - (LAUGHS) Well, I'm an outsider. I've got no right to pick anyone. I mean, I think it was a terrible tactical mistake for the green left in the Young Greens not to have had a candidate ready. I can't understand a political party where there's such a lack of will to take leadership, and how you can try to mount a and how you can try to mount a leadership coup when you don't have someone standing ready to go and how you can try to mount a who's got credibility inside and outside the party. There's plenty of people in the Greens it could have taken that position, including Jan Logie, and Teanau Tuiono, and, you know, I await like everyone else with interest. But I just` you can't help but wonder if people haven't already stepped into the ring, But I just` you can't help but how committed they are and how there is a certain push you have to have to go after leadership and to take it, and the Greens actually need that, but I wait with interest and it may still happen, but it was certainly a great tactical mistake made. But at the same time, I think the party has been shaken in a way and I hope it will help in the future for them to understand that doing things like going into a cooperation things like going into a cooperation agreement with a party that has all the power and you have none, that's not actually a very good fundament for going into the next parliamentary term. - Right. Dan, how much damage will this do to the Green Party at next year's elections and in terms of votes? - Yeah, well, I agree with Sue that that was the decision that the Green Party made to go into coalition with Labour at the last election. Labour didn't need the Green Party, so it was a big boon for Labour to have that. But it may in fact come back to bite them in next year's election when they'll need the Green Party to be strong. And there will be some narrative out there that'll say that actually they're not ready to and they can't sort themselves out. So I think it will hurt them. And but I wish, you know, certainly James is well-respected in the business community, and that's where the rubber hits the road when you're talking climate change, that's where businesses need to make the transition, just as government does, too. So, you know, certainly I think it will be good for the country if James stays in that role. - Right. Lara, what calculations do you think Jacinda Ardern will be making over all of this? - It's tricky because like we can clearly say based on the polls right now for 2023, that it's either going to be like Labour, Greens, maybe Te Pati Maori, National Act, like those are National Act, like those are the clear blocs that people are voting for. There's a small chance someone will come from outside or Winston Peters will somehow like revive New Zealand First. But that's the political landscape. revive New Zealand First. So the idea is that you want to make sure that you go into that election and you've communicated to the voters, this is this is what's happening, This is who Labour could pair with, would pair with. It's tricky because, yeah, those left-leaning voters are always going to be a bit more anti-establishment, but you've somehow got to get them into a tent with centrist voters that you've somehow kept from National. So it's like figuring out how you fit everyone in that tent under that umbrella and whatever, and have them all work together, especially in light of the memorandum of understanding, and have them all work together, the cooperation agreement that they have had. - Yeah. Before we move on, Sue I want to ask you, why does the Green Party constitution allow a co-leader to be kicked out if only 25% of delegates don't want them? I mean that hands the power over to the minority. - Well, ultimately, not because the co-leadership contest opened up again. You've got to have at least two candidates to contest it, otherwise James would automatically become leader again. Secondly, the voting is not on 75/25 for co-leader. It's a straight vote, as far as I'm aware. And the majority, whoever gets the most votes, will win. And it's any party would do it that way, I'm sure. So it is an evidence of the Greens attempt to be more democratic inside their party structure to allow this to happen, but I do think that tactically the people making this move have made a real mistake in not being able to follow through and it has shaken the party. There's no question. I think I think the James is damaged, whatever happens. - Do you reckon they can recover from it? - I think the party can recover, but I don't think James's credibility as a leader will last. Even if he outlasts what's happening Even if he outlasts what's happening right now, I think that there is a big shift inside the Green Party and inside the caucus. And I think you've got to ask yourself, where are the people either inside caucus or outside, who are coming out to really strongly speak for James at the moment? And I think that might tell us something. - Kia ora. Let's move on to David Clarke now. Big penalties, Dan, proposed for supermarkets, $10 million fines or 10% of turnover if they breach a new code of conduct. That's a big change, isn't it? - Well, look, there's some really good things that have come out of this review. The code of conduct is one of them. You've got to ask yourself, I mean, what is the point of this review is to bring down consumer prices. And, you know, will this will all these changes actually make a difference to consumer prices? Probably in the long run, but certainly not in the short to medium term. And I think there's one big thing on the table that can make a difference, and that is getting a third player like an Aldi, like an Amazon go, and that is getting a third player like an Aldi, like an Amazon go, and, you know, talking reflecting on the minister's comments, yes, he's approached them and chatted with them, but it needs to be a bit more aggressive on that, yes, he's approached them and and say what would it take for you to enter the New Zealand market? And countries like Costa Rica are really good at speaking to foreign companies, and saying what is it going to take to bring it down? And guess what? Costa Rica has got a very low inflation rate right now. - Yeah, let's talk about the buy now, pay later korero or they just came out before with David Clark. Like some announcements are on the way. But is the government too slow in their approach, Like some announcements are on the and is a thoughtful approach about this? really good enough. - Yeah, I think that David Clark got - Yeah, I think that David Clark got a number of portfolios that are incredibly technical and incredibly hard to get across. I mean, even data and statistics is such a niche area. So he's got like have coverage of a lot of these technocratic areas. I think that the buy now pay later thing is actually quite terrifying, and actually terrifying from an equity perspective in the way that it's marketed and something that obviously clearly needs quite fast regulation in order to not just compound existing inequities. - Hmm. So Labour says - Hmm. So Labour says it's part of a battle to bring down the cost of living. Is that spin? As these changes won't be in four years. - Yeah, I mean, it's totally not gonna` If either the supermarkets or anything else David's been talking about, it's not going to affect anything in the immediate future. I do with the supermarkets, worry about what's happening with the suppliers, and whether anything's being done within what the government is doing to actually help the suppliers who have also been over as big a barrel as consumers have with the supermarket duopoly. And I think the Fair Pay Agreements legislation has a big role here. Well, will we actually get to a position where supermarkets have to bargain with workers and their unions, or can they get away with refusing to bargain? And those sort of changes would And those sort of changes would really make a difference, so wait and see. - You agree with that Dan? - Not on the fair pay agreements, but in the code of conduct, there are there are you know, I think covered in that is the way that supermarkets treat their suppliers. And I think Sue, within that and it was telling the minister still was working through that, which is telling that there's still a lot to be worked through. But yes, absolutely, the relationship with suppliers needs to be worked on, and I know coming from that sector that it has been a focus, but it needs to be more at the forefront in the future. All right. Thank you very much for your time. Appreciate you being here on the show this morning. Tena koutou katoa. Kia mau tonu mai, e te iwi, our latest backstory retraces steps from Beijing to Te Raki Paewhenua, the North Shore, on to parliament. Plus, a raucous return to parliament following the long recess. And now for Backstory, a segment where we take you inside the homes and personal lives of the MPs who represent us. From Beijing to Te Raki Paewhenua, the North Shore and now to Parliament ` Labour MP Naisi Chen's journey Naisi opened the doors of her whare in Tamaki Makaurau Auckland to our kairipoata, Finn Hogan. - So, I came to New Zealand when I was 5 years old. Naisi opened the doors of her whare in Tamaki Makaurau Auckland to our kairipoata, Finn Hogan. Dad really wanted to choose Milford Primary, because apparently that was the because apparently that was the only school that Princess Diana had visited, when she came to New Zealand. He said, 'If a princess comes, He said, 'If a princess comes, it's good enough for my daughter.' (LAUGHS) And it was a public school, you know. My dad came here with $200 in his back pocket, so we really literally started from nothing. Both him and my mum are Chinese doctors, and so they had a acupuncture clinic on the shore, one of the very first. There's like almost 100 now, but they were one of the first ones there. I asked myself to blend in, for sure. I wasn't the student leader. I wasn't putting up my hands for anything. I just kind of, you know, chugged along. And then I think there was probably And then I think there was probably by the time I got to year four was my` the very first time that another Chinese student had come in and` to join me. The only other one before that was a Malaysian student. And, obviously, we got paired together on the first day of school, despite the fact that she doesn't speak any Chinese. But I'm very thankful, because she's still my friend to this day. So Mum and Dad came to New Zealand without actually knowing much English at all. And so they came in and I think they found it really hard to integrate into the mainstream kind of society. And so they came in and I think they And so everything that you needed, your life here in New Zealand, you could almost live without speaking a word of English and anything that they needed to speak English for, I was their translator, so I ended up kind of, you know, the internet account in my` in our household was always under my name, because I had to be the one who called up the company to say, hey, our internet's down or, you know. because I had to be the one who So I do think that migrant kids have` are forced to mature faster, because they have to go on that journey, they have to carry some of their parents' burden as well, just because of that culture and that language barrier as well. So my parents are very much proud of that. I've retained both languages, right? So I can speak English, obviously, and then, I can still speak fluent Mandarin. And then it's that being able to, I guess, translate, but not translate just the language, but translate the culture, right? I've actually found a lot more affinity with Maoridom than maybe in British culture, you know, I've actually found a lot more in the sense that, for instance, Maori, the word hui is a meeting. In Chinese, it's hui. It's spelt exactly the same, H-U-I. You know, the way that we respect our elderly, that we love having grandparents live with us. I've realised lots of my Maori colleagues share the same view and the same practices and so I actually feel a lot more closer to the Maori culture sometimes, in some of these practices. (XYLOPHONE DINGS) Music has been so enriching for me, and that's the place that I started my leadership journey, as well. It's to be able to work in a team. Everyone is just` You have to work together. It was that common purpose, that we want to make this piece work, we wanted our audience to enjoy it and we were chasing after excellence. It's just one of those things that I was able to kind of really find my identity. And people would point to me, like, Oh, she's the double bass player. And I think, in a school like that, and being a migrant and an Asian, having those kind of points where you can anchor your identity to is` was really important for me. (PLAYS PIANO) High school, I really got into music and so I was like, 'I'm going to be the first female Asian conductor 'that makes it on the world stage.' Conducting was always going to be my goal. And so my parents were just like, No, you're going to die of starvation. You do music, don't` You know, they were like, trust us. We know you're not that talented at music. I know that sounds really cruel, but now that I look back at it, I'm actually really thankful they said that to me. And then they are amazingly wise parents who actually know their child, and have a lot of love for their child. I ended up being a court appointed interpreter for four years, and so I did all of the big drug cases. I did a lot of family court, a lot of Tenancy Tribunal, everything you can imagine under the sun. And that really got me really into criminal law. I was at this event and then Raymond Huo, one of the Chinese MPs, happened to be in the audience. And then, so he said to me, you know, come over to my law firm. And, you know, I thought he was going to offer me a job. So I had my CV ready in my bag, thinking I'm going to go into litigation. And then he` I still remember really vividly, he was like, 'Leave your career up to fate, 'but I want you to run in this year's election.' Two weeks after meeting him for the very first time, he was like, I want you to come and try running. I had just gotten home. I was I had just gotten home. I was walking between my nail` (LAUGHS) the manicurist. I was walking back from her house to min, it was only like a five minute walk. And so, I was on the streets of Forrest Hill, still living at home with my parents, and the phone call came from a and the phone call came from a regional rep who said, 'Naisi, hey, I'm so happy to tell you 'that you got 40 on the list.' I'm like... 40? So, you know, at that time, the poll and everything, you know, 40 was quite a safe spot. I was just jumping up and down, ran home, you know, right into my dad's arms, I was like, I'm gonna (INDISTINCT) So, it was quite the moment. I think my whole neighbourhood heard me that day. But on the first day, you can imagine, it's really overwhelming. 65 colleagues, and you're like, who do I talk to, who I sit next to, all of that kind of stuff. and you're like, who do I talk to, It is like the first day of school. You try to find your friends. But I'm so proud to say that I've managed to find some friends in the caucus that I think will be lifelong friends. I'm really lucky. I am the tech support to the whole entire caucus, so anytime they couldn't get, like, a PowerPoint up and running, someone's phone ` I remember Trevor Mallard ` 'How do I set up Bluetooth tracking on my phone?' I'm like, Trevor, you need a new phone. This is too old. You've got an iPhone 6. So, so moments like that have really` I think I've found my place in caucus. I'm really privileged to come into politics so young, but I think that's something that I would really like to retain, in that I can bring my own perspective of my generation. Being a third culture kid, a 1.5 generation migrant, I walk in both worlds. I walk in two worlds, and so I think that complexity comes with who I am as well. - Taihoa e haere, we're back after the break. Parliament is back from recess and our MPs return, ready to lob bombs across the debating chamber. - Anei ano, Finn Hogan with the week that was in Te Whanganui-a-Tara. - The long recess is over and a refreshed Opposition is raring to go. They even had a brand new opening question. - Does she stand by all of her government's statements and actions? - Does she stand by all her government's policies and actions? - Does he stand by all of her statements and actions? - Just kidding, same question, but new hunger to press the advantage over the cost of living crunch. - When should Kiwis struggling with record increases in the cost of living expect inflation to be back below 3%? - But the Government was giving as good as it got. - Do I resile from the support that was provided to the New Zealand businesses who kept our people in jobs? No. And will I ever call them soft? Never. (SCATTERED APPLAUSE) - With Robertson on hand to deliver some tropical burns over Luxon's holiday. - It was obvious that, for whatever reason, Christopher Luxon wanted New Zealanders to think he was Te Puke and not Hawaii. And it is true, Mr Speaker. They are easily confused. - But the government did have to dodge some fire from its left. - It's time for the Labour Government to put their money where their mouth was, before the election. Ministers, the buck stops here, and 400,000 students are standing by. - And overseeing it all was Trevor Mallard, nearly finished with his time as Speaker, but I'm sure we'll get to hear him shout ` - LUXON: Does she agree with` - MALLARD: Order, order. - a few more times. I'll see you next week. - And we're back with our panel now. Dan Bidois, Sue Bradford and Dr Lara Greaves. Kia ora, nau mai ano. - Kia ora. - Now, let's start with Christopher Luxon, Dan. He says he got it wrong over the social media post saying he was in Te Puke when he was, in fact, in Hawaii. Misleading or intentional? - Unintentional. Look, hey, come on. He, he, he` He apologised. He` It was an earnest mistake and I just can't believe we're and I just can't believe we're talking about it, you know, seven days later or how many days later. So, you know, I think there are a lot more concerning issues facing New Zealanders, - Absolutely, there are, but what does that do to his image as the Leader of the Opposition when he's claiming to be, well, on social media, he's purporting to be somewhere in the country when he's, in fact, not. - Look, I think he` he opened up, he apologised, he fronted up. It wasn't even his mistake. That speaks volumes, in terms of` - Lara, you're chomping at the bit. - He didn't quite, like, just say, 'Oh, sorry, that was a mistake,' and just shut it down. This is the problem. He kind of switched the narra` like, if he just shut it down instantly and then moved on, that would be one thing, This is the problem. He kind of switched the narra` like, if he just shut it down instantly but that, like, exchange with Susie Ferguson, and it's just` he must know, and we all must know, that people are going to try to paint him that way. So these are the kind of things that I would expect some kind of strategy for, similar to the abortion debate. - Yeah, look, I think there's strategies around inflation, cost of living, education. You know, National is` There's some really big issues facing this country. And I think, to be honest, he probably didn't expect to be asked. - But we're in politics and communications and the media. So, it's one of those things where I think that voters or just people in the commentariat So, it's one of those things where would expect him to have conversations` - As I say, it's` He's apologised, he's been upfront about it. I think it's time to move on. - All right. So, the thing is, though, with Christopher Luxon, he has been campaigning very hard on the cost of living with Christopher Luxon, he has been campaigning very hard on the cost of and yet he's on holiday in Hawaii. with Christopher Luxon, he has been And I hear what you're saying, Dan, but the fact is, you know, we are going through a cost of living crisis. He's in Hawaii. Is that out of touch? - Yeah. Well, in terms of` he's got such a shallow policy approach and he's a very new MP, actually. And I think all of this is has revealed, once again, his lack of experience, lack of training maybe, and how he didn't deal well` I mean, when he got caught out, even if it wasn't his fault, as Lara said, he could have been a lot quicker to shut it down and to get past it. But he wasn't. And I think, the sort of stumbling way` and his whole focus on cost of living only makes it worse. It exacerbates it, when people are in dire poverty. No problem` I mean, I don't think anyone should resent MPs having holidays. Like, we all need them, and this job is a particularly difficult one, very stressful. And I know that well. And having a holiday is really precious. The problem was when the staffer put this` put this up online. So, yes, he should have apologised, explained and got over it very quickly. But the other thing, he keeps hammering on about cost of living, but I'm still waiting to see what National` I think, many of us are saying, what are they actually going to do about it? 'Cause you can say, 'Well, it's a terrible thing.' We all know this is difficult, but what is National's` What are your policies, Mr Luxon? And so for me, I'm much more concerned about that lack of depth so far. It's not` and so, when a surface issue, like this social media thing, comes up, people grab onto it. Because, I want to challenge Christopher Luxon and National. I want to know what their welfare, their housing, their employment policies are, but we're not getting that. - All right. Election donations. A not guilty verdict, sorry, last week, in the New Zealand First case. What does this say about our current donation rules? - Look, I can't talk about the specifics of that case. I don't know the specifics. I haven't been following it. But with regards to donations, look, there are some changes being proposed under this current government, and, look, I just` I don't think they're changes that are necessary. You know, if you look at our donations, we have very clear rules and in this case with New Zealand First and` - Labour and National, now. - Yeah, there has been some clear rules that have been broken and we'll see what happens from that. - What are your thoughts, Sue? - I think the more that can be done to make election donations visible and accountable, the better. I'm very` I'm worried by the legal effect of New Zealand First getting away with it, basically, with this trial, when it was very clear that the people giving the donations thought they were giving them to New Zealand First, and... there were legal subtleties. and... there were legal subtleties. I understand, legally, why the` why they got off. But actually, I think, in my mind, and the mind of many of us out here, we're saying, 'Oh, yet another political party has got away with a huge rip off.' Anything that can be done to tighten up is a good thing. - Yeah. Do you reckon the government is looking into making the law more transparent around this, but do they go far enough? - I don't know enough details of the legislation to be sure. I am a bit unsure` I've heard the Green Party calling for the donation declaration limit to go right down to a very low amount, maybe 1000, I think? - 5000. - 5000. I've heard 1000. Which` I think 1000 is very low. I think 5000, yeah. But there are people` Like, I do understand people's reasons for not wanting to declare. And I think that that up to a certain point, that's OK, but maybe a thousand ` 1000, is the one I'm talking about ` is a little low. But yes, they definitely should be declared, because there are reasons` I mean, sometimes people give across political parties, sometimes people have very good reasons why they don't want to be identified with the party, and it shouldn't stop them from contributing, but it should be set at a moderate level. - OK. It's been great to talk to you guys all again today. We have Sue Bradford, Dan Bidois and Dr Lara Greaves. Tena koutou katoa. That's our show for this week. Thank you for joining us. Nga mihi nui, and we'll see you all again next weekend. Captions by Able. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 This show was brought to you by the New Zealand On Air Public Interest Journalism Fund.