- And I'm Simon Shepherd. Nau mai and welcome to Newshub Nation. On the program today ` low wages, sterilisation and imprisoned by Covid. Will the new minister deliver for disabled New Zealanders? - With President Xi seeking a third term amid a teetering property market, heat wave and drought, we cross live to Beijing. - Following a damning - Following a damning UN report on the treatment of Uyghur Muslims in China, a Uyghur-New Zealander shares the story of his family in Xinjiang. - And which political party is dropping election year budgets on social media already? Digital editor Ben Hogan reveals all. on social media already? Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 Up first on the program today, the government has established a brand new ministry of the disabled, a decision that has been praised and welcomed as long overdue. But has it already blundered? - Poto Williams is the Minister for Disability Issues and I asked her why the Ministry this week gave disabled communities just 24 hours to feedback on proposed mask mandate reductions. - The ministry was asked to collect feedback earlier this week, - The ministry was asked to collect feedback earlier this week, which they have done so and it's really important that we acknowledge that the disability community that the disability community is impacted and they certainly have a view and it's important that that view is provided to Cabinet before Cabinet makes the decision. - Do you think that 24 hours on such a crucial issue for the disabled community is respectful? - I personally would have preferred more time to make sure that the views were widely canvassed. In saying that, Whaikaha, the Ministry of Disabled People, went to key stakeholder groups, given the time frames that were required, and we'll provide that and we'll provide that information and advice to ministers for discussion. Can I just say that the mask mandate and the use of masks is very important to people with disabilities. They have concerns and they certainly have a very strong view about that. - Exactly. And for some - Exactly. And for some of them it can be life or death for them, can't it? Because a lot of these people are immunocompromised. - And that's why it's important to get their views. - Disabled people have told us they feel isolated, even imprisoned, because Covid restrictions have been removed. If more go, even everyday tasks like supermarket shopping will be unsafe. - And I completely concur with their views and support them in expressing those views directly to Cabinet so that Cabinet can consider that when we're looking at the mask restrictions and that use. - This is their ministry, this is a new ministry. It's something the government is proud of. But do you concede that this is not really a good start, just giving them 24 hours for feedback on such a crucial issue? - It is an important issue. Views have been sought... - You say that, but do you concede... - ...but it would be better to have wide` - ...it's not really a good start? - It would be, you know, beneficial for everybody to have wide consultation. This is a view though` This is a particular issue where I know that the views have been expressed in the past, and that's consistent with the view that disabled communities are presenting to us. I think the issue here is, and what you're alluding to, Simon, is the appropriateness of consultation on any issue for the disabled community needs to be fulsome and it needs to be fulsome and it needs to be appropriate and it needs to be wide-ranging. It didn't happen in this case. - As the new Minister for Disability Issues, you've just returned from presenting progress in New Zealand to the United Nations. What do you think the United Nations committee would have thought about this kind of feedback sort and the time frame? - Well, it's pretty robust as a process, and I'm sure that in the context of consultation, this would not have stood up in terms of what we would see as best practice. The idea of going, you know, The idea of going, you know, the whole process of going to the UN is to... ensure that the convention is embedded in all parts of government. - Well, OK, let's talk about those. First of all... Maori and Pasifika have higher disability rates, but there were no Maori at the UN with you. Why is that? - The IMM, the Independent Monitoring Mechanism, were there as the civil society representation and they had within their cohort people speaking the views of Maori disabled direct to the committee. Our response was the government response in terms of how government responds to tangata whaikaha Maori. - The head of that delegation, the IMM that you're talking about, did travel with you and he outlined areas where he believes New Zealand is not performing. One of those is employers can pay disabled people less than the minimum wage. So why is it that disabled people are regarded as less valuable in the workplace? - That's an area we have been working on for a little while and it's an area of absolute priority to us. We have to work alongside those providers of that particular mahi, to ensure that we have a process in place to deal with it. There is some thinking about what we do in that space. It's a government response to a piece of work that is clearly unfair. It, in my view, shouldn't continue... - So you don't agree with that practice. OK. - ...but we do need to talk to... the providers of` I don't agree with the practice. But we do need to talk But we do need to talk to the providers because what they are also doing is providing opportunities for our disabled community. So we have to make sure that the provision of that activity continues, but that they are paid` - Fairly. - ...you know, an appropriate wage, just like anyone else who has employment. - Let's talk about another issue that was raised by Dr Godfrey at the UN. He said that sterilisation of disabled women without informed consent is still happening in New Zealand. Can you explain that to us? - I cannot, because it was the first time that I had heard that... - So it doesn't mean that you were shocked by that? - ...and I was not aware` I was. Absolutely, and it's something that I have asked for further advice on, to understand the nature of that. - Because I was told that such sterilisation was made illegal in 2000. That's 22 years ago. And it seems shocking and backward that something like this is still happening in New Zealand. - And that's obviously something that we will be` will come out in the concluding observations as something` as the recommendation for government to deal with. But as I say, Simon, it was something that came as a huge surprise to me that it continued. But as I say, Simon, it was - Is it embarrassing to stand before the United Nations and hear that? - It is important that we hear that. That's the reason we go to the United Nations, - It is important that because we want to know the areas that we need to improve in. We are wanting to embed the principles of the convention across government. So we need to know these things. - OK. One other area that you are addressing is accessibility laws. They're currently before Parliament, but it seems all they will do will allow you to make recommendations, but not regulations. They are essentially toothless. Everyone in the area doesn't like it. Will you revisit this or are you pushing ahead with it? - The bill is actually before select committee and we're encouraging people and we're encouraging people to make representations to select committee, make submissions, and we're encouraging people and in fact, we've opened up the process so as many people can and will have the opportunity to do that. If that's a view, we will certainly` We would look to what submissions are being made. - Do you know how many disabled people there are in New Zealand? - We quote somewhere in the region of 1.1 million. There are lots of people who come to disability either through accident or through age, for example. It's a lot of people who... are captured by that definition. - That 1.1 million figure that you quote dates back to a 2013 disability survey. So statistics, you would acknowledge, would be out of date. - Potentially, but it is a lot of people that we would say are part of the wider community. - But isn't this part of the reason that some people in the disability community feel invisible because they don't think that there is sufficient data collected on their community? For example, we don't know how many disabled people have died with or as a result of Covid. - Yeah, that's absolutely right. It's one of the things that we raised and that was raised at the UN examination. It is one thing that we are wanting to do more of and it's one thing that's being driven by the new ministry, by Whaikaha, is an ability to capture much is an ability to capture much more information about people in the disability community, what impacts them and how best and how much more we can do for them. what impacts them and - OK, Minister, just moving on quickly. Just one quick question on one of your other portfolios. In 2017, the Prime Minister promised to ban mining on conservation land. Reiterated that in about 2020. You are the Conservation Minister. When will you fulfil that promise? - Simon, to be very clear, we've been engaged in a process of reclassifying stewardship land for 12 months now. We were very clear about the process, which will see far more land protected. So we've... started the process. What you're describing, what you're talking about, is a Members Bill... - No, no, I'm talking about the 2017... the 2017... - ...that has been drawn from the ballot. - Yeah, but I'm talking about the 2017 promise from Jacinda Ardern. And since that promise, there has been access granted to conservation land by mining companies, maybe for scoping works, that kind of thing. Why not just put a moratorium on all of that until you have completed this reclassifying work? - This reclassifying work will protect thousands and thousands more hectares than currently. And we are engaged in that process. We've set it out, we've started 12 months ago with reclassifying large tracts of the West Coast. It's important that any future decisions are based on good information It's important that and the classification will allow us to ensure that we know the values ` the cultural values, the conservation biodiversity values, the historical values ` of that land. And that's important. That's a piece of work that has been talked about for 30 years, Simon. So we've started that... - But you will not be able to deliver - ...that's 12 months into the process. - ...will you, by the next election? - Simon, that is incorrect. The reclassification will protect far more land, and it's important that we do that so that we know what biodiversity, cultural, historical values... - But we don't know when that's going to be finished, do you? I mean, so you don't know when that's going to be finished. - Look, 12 months it's not too bad to actually be dealing with the classification of a big tract, you know, large tracts of the DOC estates, so we're working through this steadily. - All right, Conservation Minister and Minister for Disability Issues, Poto Williams. Thank you so much for your time. - Kia ora. Thank you, Simon. - Well, Dr Huhana Hickey is a lawyer and disability advocate who joins me now. Welcome to the program. You have seen the Minister's interview just now. She admits consultation on mask mandates was not fulsome, appropriate, wide-ranging or best practice. It is not a great start, is it? - It's not a great start and a really big concern because we have consistently argued that masking is the one thing that keeps immune compromised people and disabled seniors, children, safe from a pandemic, a virus. We haven't left the pandemic. It hasn't yet become endemic and until it does, we still need masking. It hasn't yet become - Yeah, well, going to green will have huge implications for the disability community, won't it, Huhana? - This is eugenics and I thought we dealt with that years ago, centuries ago. But it's the 'Let's just let it rip. Let's open it up.' And disabled, immune compromised will just have to run the gauntlet. If they survive, they survive. If they die, they die. We can't get protected, even in hospitals ` visitors are not mandated to wear masks. Or they are, but they're not enforcing. And it's become dangerous. Can't even go to a dentist without any guarantee of safety. And it's become dangerous. Can't go to get procedures without guarantees of safety. Where can we go? We are seeing more and more disabled now, talking about being imprisoned in their own homes. That's not our future. That's not going to be good for our country. And it is time they started to recognise ` health policy's mean good masking until such time as a virus has started to weaken, dissipate or becomes endemic at least. - Yeah, absolutely, Huhana. As we heard as well, the Minister has been to the UN recently and she came in for criticism for a lack of any direct Maori representation there. She defended that this morning. What do you think of that? - I've argued this for over 20 years. I said to them, where is the partnership with our Maori. Everyone always came up with excuses. I have personally been asked by the international indigenous community, where is the indigenous voice? Even during the development of the convention, I was appointed by the international community, not by Aotearoa. I was appointed by the international community to be the indigenous people's rep. Why is it we don't have our partnerships set up to have us represented? We've got a lot of issues that we need to address because Maori have a higher rate of disability and we're not equal to other disabled yet. So until we have that true Tiriti arrangement, the true partnership, Maori need to be sitting at least at the UN level, speaking with the UN around what's going on. So there's a real disappointment around that. Big disappointment. - Absolutely. Are you satisfied that the Maori view would have been heard there, Huhana? - Yes, I am, because again, I've been working with the UN for a number of years - Yes, I am, because again, and a lot of them are asking where the Maori voice is because Maori have been recognised as being some of the biggest voices in the development of UNDRIP, in the development of indigenous work in there, and yet they're absent from the indigenous disability work and that is a concern. But it also shows, because we don't have even a tran` pantribal, pan-disability DPO, equal to all the other DPOs. We do have one. We had the first one in the country, Te Ao Marama, but yet it's not given equal status. Until we are seen as equal partners, we are not and Maori disabled are struggling because of that. - I want to talk to you about the minimum wage, something else that came up in the Minister's interview. I didn't hear much of substance from the Minister on that. What do you think needs to happen there with the minimum wage for disabled workers? - There's been a subsidised approach for a number of decades. Came out from the Disabled Persons Employment Promotions Act in the 1960s. I wrote a Master's paper on it. Lianne Dalziel actually utilised that to try and repeal the DPEPA, but we're still seeing subsidies within sheltered employment environments and they should not be existing. Disabled people are either working or they are in an apprenticeship of some kind. An apprenticeship can allow An apprenticeship can allow for a lower wage, but if they're deemed to be working, they should at least have the minimum wage, not a subsidised $1.50 an hour or a day to do your work. They're out there doing work, they're working hard, and some of them actually do quite high levels of work where it's of very good quality. It's just an excuse. There's always been this assumption disabled people do not have the same work values, cannot work to the same level. Well, we've got our first disabled CEO running a ministry. We are capable, give us a chance, develop our skills and stop trying to devalue us, but put us into an area where you start to see what we can do because these jobs out there, we want to work, let's make it work. We just have to adapt them slightly. - Absolutely. let's make it work. We just Huhana, I wanted to mention to you as well, I was surprised as well that the Minister didn't have more recent statistics on just how large the shape, I suppose, of the disabled community that the Ministry is serving. She's relying on numbers from 2013. Does the Minister need to get to know who it is representing better? - Stats New Zealand does not do regular checks on data for disabled people. The Washington report is not done. We've had resistance for decades again, and that has now shown, when we can bring up the statistics ` I do research in Covid right now ` we can bring up Maori statistics, Pasifika statistics, most others ` gender, age ` but we cannot find out how many disabled have died with Covid. And that is a travesty of injustice to disabled people because it will prove to you that when Omicron came, it opened the door of danger to disabled people. By not collecting the statistics, you can't be challenged on it, can you? So it's a false comparison. We need those statistics. But we have been told we're not to get them. We were not consulted. We were not consulted. For the green` to the move to the green. We were not consulted around the masks, we were not consulted around the data. It is time we have a brand new ministry. The brand new ministry will be making sure all of that information starts to become the norm. Why exclude us when you include Maori and Pasifika? Or is it that the Maori-Pasifika disability stats are going to come out with some pretty appalling answers. Us researchers want to know, because we need those statistics to be able to prove our points. - Well, you need good information - Well, you need good information as well, Huhana. That ministry... - We do. - Certainly. I want to ask you one last question, just very quickly ` election year is coming up and just a few weeks ago, Christopher Luxon was on this program. He was talking about sanctioning those who have a health condition or disability and aren't meeting their Jobseeker requirements. What are your thoughts on that? - People that are on Jobseeker support are people who are going through cancer. Would you expect your whanau member, family member, who's going through chemo, to be working? I don't think so. Some have to go on benefits because you cannot` there's not very good sick leave for people with medical disabilities. People with health conditions long for people with medical disabilities. People with health conditions long term, a lot of people on mental health can't get on the SLP, so they have to go on Jobseeker support. Jobseeker support is the sickness that we used to have. It is nothing more than cruel, inhumane and discompassionate make people who are unwell work. I had a friend who did work when he was going through chemo. He's dead now, OK? He worked. He got past the first stage, but he relapsed quicker and died earlier than what he needed to if he was able to heal, recover, without the stress of the finances. We need to have a better approach in making people on Jobseeker work. We already have youth coaches ` they're already doing that work. We already have the themes that the Welfare Expert Advisory Group put in. Earning, learning, volunteering and working. A lot of those people on Jobseeker are on two or three jobs already, but because of part-time work, because 50% of employment is going to end within the next decades, we are actually looking at the way jobs are now and it's not as it was and it's not as it was 20 years ago, 10 years ago. - Well, Huhana, thank you... and it's not as it was - The way we're gonna be looking at jobs is worse. - Huhana Hickey, thank you so much for joining us here on The Nation this morning. - Huhana Hickey, thank you If you have got a news tip, get in touch. We are on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram or you can email us at nation@tv3.co.nz. - E whai ake nei, we dissect the week's political news with our panel Tim Wilson, Ella Henry and Sue Bradford. - But first, we cross to Beijing following a damning UN report that says China has committed serious human rights violations against Uyghur Muslims. In 2019, we brought you the story of Shawudun Abdulgofur, a Uyghur Muslim living in New Zealand since 2010 and desperate for news of his mother and three brothers in Xinjiang. Here's a reminder of that investigation by reporter Mike Wesley-Smith. (PENSIVE MUSIC) (PENSIVE MUSIC) His memories of a family disappeared kept alive by small, poignant reminders ` memories, photos and his collection of roses. Well, three years later, Shawudun joins me now, with support from Sam Vincent from Uyghur Solidarity Aotearoa. Tena korua. Welcome back to the programme, Shawudun. Your mother and three brothers still living in Xinjiang? - Yep. - What's life like for them now? - I don't know about much, because... really risky to contact with them, and they can't get any information about. - Why is it risky for you to contact them? - If I call them or if they contact with me, straight ahead, they will find themselves in a jail or concentration camp. - Because they have made contact with you? - Overseas. - Is anyone in a concentration camp at the moment? - At the moment, no, but in the jail still. - In the jail? - Yeah. - Who is in jail? - My big brother. - Your big brother? How long has he been in jail? - Since 2017, I heard. - Right. When we spoke to you in 2019, um, you went public and you said that once you'd spoken, the Chinese embassy was harassing you. Has that stopped? - I can say... at the moment, yes. - At the moment, yes? - But` - But you still have fear for your family should you make any should you make any contact with them? - Yes. - The United Nations put out a report yesterday which has found crimes against humanity may be happening in Xinjiang. What do you think of that? - That report is too... weak. And the` - Too weak? - Yes. And then` Because it's already genocide is happening. - Sam, you support the Uyghur community here in Aotearoa. What do you make of that report? - I think it's` it's an important step and that it formalises on the UN level that massive atrocities are taking place and, as you said, that they may amount to crimes against humanity. Um... We need to go further. And like Shawudun has said, it doesn't go far enough, because it's clear that a genocide is happening, and that does come through from the report ` the Chinese Government is trying to destroy the Uyghur people and leave only Chinese culture in the Uyghur Region. They're doing this through concentration camps, through a massive programme of forced labour, through forced birth control, which has resulted in the plummeting of Uyghur birth rates; through the outlawing of Uyghur culture through the outlawing and the separation of families, including children being sent away from their parents and into` into state-run facilities. This is genocide. And when is our government gonna do something about it? - Yeah. So, our government hasn't put that label of genocide on it, but Foreign Affairs Minister Nanaia Mahuta has been... forceful in her statements. How has that been received by the Uyghur community in New Zealand? Shawudun? - Uh, for... I didn't see any meaningful action. - No meaningful action? - No. Not really. - What would meaningful action look like for you? - (INHALES DEEPLY) For example, (SIGHS) taking refugees. Even as... some of the New Zealand citizens still in the... Uyghurs still in the overseas. Yes. - Right. So taking more Uyghurs? - More than four or five months now. - Right. - Yes. - OK. Sam, what else should the Government be doing? - The Government promised... The New Zealand Government promised the international community after the Holocaust to work to prevent and to punish genocide. It is clear that a genocide is taking place. It's not good enough for the Government to... to just see what happens on the UN level and hope for more progress when that progress is being held up through the influence and the pressure of the Chinese Government. Our government has a responsibility to take whatever action it can. - Yeah` And what action should it be taking? - Well, I think the first step is that the Government has to say, has to` well, make its determination on the question of genocide. - Mm. - That would be` That would be the first thing. - Chi` What about trade with China? Because China is our biggest trading partner. Should we be sensitive about that? Should that be taken into account? - Well, I think` I think a particularly good measure that the Government could take would be the one that the US Government has taken, whereby products that come from the Uyghur Region are banned from being imported because they are assumed to have been made with forced labour, given the scale of Uyghur forced labour in the region. They are allowed to be imported where there is proof that they do not come from forced labour. That is the sort of the gov` the measure they should take. - Uh, the foreign affairs spokesperson for National, Gerry Brownlee, - Uh, the foreign affairs yesterday talked about the UN report and said that` sort of explained that it was China combating terrorism in the Xinjiang area. What do you think about that response, Shawudun? - I feel... really, it's irresponsible. Irresponsible. Because of` You see, why my mum and my brother in the` taken to the jail and the concentration camp because of... (INHALES DEEPLY) I didn't provide what the Chinese Government asked me to provide in New Zealand citizen. Because... they` China ` CCP ` uh... traded my mum and my brothers... - Mm? - Cross-border interrogated me to provide a New Zealand citizens information. I refused. So they are in the concentration camp and the jail. - So, to be clear ` the Chinese Government asked you to provide some information from within New Zealand to them and you did not and so your relatives are in jail? - Yes. - Is that what you're saying? - Yes. That is active terrorism. That Chinese Government, they're the terrorist. We are not terrorists. My mum is not terrorist. - OK. You` It` A lot of Uyghurs in - OK. You` It` A lot of Uyghurs in New Zealand don't stand up publicly about this, but you have. Why are you doing that? - I can't... mer` I can't take` ask mercy from the CCP; I can ask New Zealand Government, as has a little bit democracy, wish to help me to find them, my family. So I am in front of... the public. - Do you hold out hope of seeing your family again? the public. - Do you hold out hope of - Yes. the public. - Do you hold out hope of - Always hope? - Because of the hope, I am still alive. - OK. Shawudun Abdulgofur, thank you so much for your time. Sam, thank you for your time as well today. - Thank you. - All right. Thank you very much. Staying on China ` we'll cross shortly there to talk more about that UN report. I believe Rebecca has that all in hand. - And also about President Xi seeking an historic third term at the Chinese Communist Party Congress in October. He will almost certainly capture the necessary vote, but he faces strong headwinds to realise his ambitions for China. Let's take a look. - KIWI REPORTER: Half of China is now in the grip of the country's worst drought on record. - AMERICAN REPORTER: Dry, cracking riverbeds like this... - Industrial shutdowns causing problems for some of the world's leading manufacturers. - AUSTRALIAN REPORTER: Beijing sees Taiwan as its territory. (MISSILES FIRE) - KIWI REPORTER: a warning shot to China and its growing influence in the region. - BRITISH REPORTER: Under American law, it's committed to defend Taiwan's democracy if it's attacked. - IRISH REPORTER: And every day, another part of the city has been sealed off. The draconian measures deployed in Shanghai have shocked the world. When this is all over, it will be the people, not the economy, who have suffered most. - Well, I'm joined now by Patrick Fok in Beijing. Welcome to the programme, Patrick. It has been a really tough year there, from COVID lockdowns, the US-Taiwan crisis, a slowing economy, the property market teetering on collapse, now a heatwave and a drought. Is alarm beginning to spread there, Patrick? (BIRDS TWITTER IN DISTANCE) - Yeah. Well, it really has been a turbulent year. And when you talk about, you know, things that are happening right now ` I mean, Chengdu, a city of 21 million people, has just been put under lockdown. It's the largest city since Shanghai went under a bruising two-month lockdown to go through this, and authorities haven't said how long it's going to go for. And, you know, on the points about the heatwave ` people are saying that this is related, because it was so hot in Chengdu` I mean, parts of Southwest China were hitting daily temperatures of above 40 degrees Celsius, and people were therefore going to pools, hanging out in malls. And so that is possibly something that's contributed to this rise in cases there. The heatwave is starting to subside, but it's also exposed a lot of problems to do with power sources in China. A lot of Southwest China is powered by hydro energy. And, of course, you know, there's this huge drought. And so there was no water` So no water, no hydropower, and so, you know, parts of Southwest China suffered serious power shortages for a period of time. - Yeah. We're also looking at, um, Patrick, Kevin Rudd, a keen observer of China ` the former Australian prime minister, of course ` is ringing alarm bells too about the property market, saying that it is` prices have slumped 40% and it would be the biggest` if it crashed, it would be the biggest crash the world has ever seen. - Yep. Well, it is certainly concerning, because, you know, if you go around many, many cities in China, you can see that there are lots and lots of unfinished homes, and, you know, there are lots of desperate homebuyers. And people in China tend to pour their money into property as a security and, you know, lots of people have paid for these unfinished homes; there are some people considering moving into these ramshackle buildings because they've got nowhere else to go; and then there are other people also that are choosing just not to continue their mortgage payments. So, you know, that puts pressure not just on developers but also on the entire financial system, because it affects banks as well. So it is a critical moment, and it is essential that the government tries to find a way out of it. - I want to talk to you more about that in a moment, Patrick, but I was also just wondering ` you know, what impact is all of this having on Chinese people? - Well, you know, it is really interesting, because, you know, the problem is huge, it's systemic, it's structural; but the other thing is that, you know, there have been lots of pockets of protests going on. I mean, there is this social contract that you... you know, you stay in line under the Chinese system and you will be guaranteed that, you know, you have a, sort of, particular standard of living and you will be able to, sort of, improve your lives. But now this whole issue with` with the housing crisis has kind of shaken that up a little bit, and, you know, people are openly protesting as a result. There have been protests going on ` particularly in the city of Zhengzhou, in Henan Province, particularly in the city of you know, south of Beijing ` and these have been ongoing for really a long time. So, I mean, there is this enormous amount of unrest and sort of, you know, social unrest going on right before the Party Congress in the middle of next month, which` which is not a good thing for the government. - Absolutely. And would you`? You know, in any other country, Patrick, I think ` or a democracy, at least ` we would see a change of government, perhaps, in this situation. But do you think that these sort of cascading crises will have an impact at all on President Xi's political fortunes? - Well, people have been debating that point for several months now, but from everything that we've seen, it does appear as though President Xi Jinping has consolidated power to such an extent that it's unlikely that this is going to turn out any other way. But, you know, also, a lot of the things we're talking about are things that you may very well see President Xi Jinping use to say that China needs to have strong leadership under his guidance ` in particular, the issue on Uyghurs, for instance. China has repeatedly said that these are smear tactics being used by the US and other Western powers and they're designed to contain China. So, you know, there is a way that the Chinese leadership may put a spin on this to say that, 'This is the pathway that we need to go on. 'We need to keep going in this direction, 'and we need strong leadership to make sure that China can fend off all these challenges.' - Well, Patrick Fok, it is such an interesting time. Thank you so much for joining us this morning from Beijing. - And for three years, we have been asking the Chinese Ambassador to come on the programme. We will continue to press for that interview. Up next ` the political week dissected with our panel, Tim Wilson, Ella Henry and Sue Bradford. Plus ` which political party is dropping election year budgets on social media already? Digital Editor Finn Hogan reveals all. I am joined now by our panel ` executive director of the Maxim Institute, Tim Wilson; AUT Associate Professor Ella Henry; and former Green MP Sue Bradford. Welcome to you all. Plenty to discuss on this morning's programme. I want to start on China, just because we've just been discussing that with Patrick ` such a lot going on there at the moment ` and some commentary that China's sort of slow economic recovery could turn what is bound to be a global recession into a global depression. This could really affect us here in New Zealand, couldn't it, Tim? - Yeah, it is. And I think... What was the saying ` when America sneezes, it's New Zealand that catches a cold. What was the saying ` when America sneezes, it's New Zealand that catches a cold. Well, if China sneezes, I think the whole globe will catch... a lot worse than a cold. What was the saying ` when America sneezes, it's New Zealand that catches a cold. What is interesting for me is how these internal pressures will actually play out geopolitically. We saw the correspondent there discussing questions around the leadership. Will it make for firmer leadership, Will it make for firmer leadership, but also will it make for greater expansion in our neck of the woods? And that's concerning. - And it's interesting. It was interesting to hear from Patrick about growing discontent within China and protests, for example. It's extraordinary, isn't it? Not something that we're used to hearing happening within China. - I mean, I think the rise of social media has given the common people more of a voice, which is important. But at the end of the day, this Uyghur situation shows us that the Chinese regime has got complete control over what is going on in their country. And whilst I'm proud of the stand we've taken, it doesn't go far enough, as our Uyghur representative said today. But also, I mean, China doesn't really care what we think. - Well, it's becoming more and more clear, isn't it, Sue? It was so interesting to hear It was so interesting to hear from` from Shawudun, who we've just had on the programme. Does New Zealand` Can New Zealand be tougher on this? More direct, more forceful? - What I've picked up from seeing this this morning is really how... I think that Nanaia Mahuta and They are talking about human rights. They are condemning what's happening. But what they're not doing is taking any practical steps, like opening up a refugee quota for Uyghur people. And it sounds from what we heard that even letting immigrants with trades, you know, who would add to our economy ` why aren't we opening that up to people? There are many, There are many, many Uyghur refugees, and we should be opening that up, both to refugees and to migrants both to refugees and to migrants with skills. Why not? Very practical steps. - Well, we can even declare that a genocide is happening, as other countries have, as the UK parliament has, as France has. We could actually take a bit of a moral lead on that. I think, to your point, Ella ` China doesn't care what we think. They're a bully, so they do. Bullies always care what everyone thinks. So I would... contextualise that. contextualise that. - I was probably making a grandiose statement. They are expanding their influence in the Pacific, and that is having a direct impact on us in many, many ways. - And I don't want to jump in again, but Gerry Brownlee ` I'm sorry ` Gerry Brownlee, but to` - I was gonna ask. - You go ahead, Rebecca. - No, I was gonna ask ` what did you think of Gerry Brownlee's response this week? - Well, to equate the genocide - Well, to equate the genocide that China is perpetrating against the Uyghur people with our anti-terrorism measures ` I'm sorry, we don't enforce mass sterilisation through our anti-terrorism measures, as they do in China. We don't round up a religious and ethnic minority, confine them in concentration camps. I do not understand where Gerry Brownlee was coming from. I do not understand why he said it. I cannot see how it benefits New Zealand, and I don't get how it benefits the National Party. - Well, we probably should have been able to expect more from a former Foreign Minister. But I want to move on to Poto Williams and her interview this morning. 24 hours of consultation, Ella, with the disabled community on what is a huge issue for them ` going to green. Is it a red flag? Should it be a red flag at the Ministry? - There is literally nothing that I could say which would expand on what Dr Hickey said. She was so articulate and so clear. The only thing that I can say is that this government is still wrestling with how it has a relationship with Maori, and this is simply another instance where there is work to be done. And just putting a Maori minister into a portfolio does not mean consultation. It does not mean partnership. It does not mean acknowledgement of Te Tiriti. - I want to talk just quickly about, you know, the Ministry of Disabled People is going to be about advocacy. But I wanted to ask you, Sue ` do we all need to do better? Do we need a culture change as well? We can't expect a ministry to sort of regulate for all of these things. - Yeah, we absolutely need a culture change across this country and just understand that, for those of us who don't identify as disabled people, that actually, we are temporarily able-bodied. - Yeah. The clock is ticking. - And that can happen to any of us at any time. But I just think that it's disgraceful where the government is on this at the moment. And true, the Minister is new to And true, the Minister is new to the area, but this legislation that was talked about that they've just brought in, it's hopeless. It's just not doing anything real. And so while you can have a ministry, this legislation seems to be about setting up a committee, not about actual government commitment to accessibility across housing, welfare and all the other areas Huhana talked about. - We love committees and reviews and task forces with this government, don't we? - So I fear very much, even if all the groups come and make incredible submissions to that select committee, it will end up just like the one round the Children's Commissioner that we've just seen, that despite nearly all the submissions saying we need a strong Children's Commissioner, the government just didn't give a toss, and I very much fear the same thing will happen with disability. - Tim, I want to ask ` well, I want to ask you all ` we saw some contortions, political contortions happening down at the Beehive this week, backflips from both parties. Luxon, he took far too long to rule out working with Brian Tamaki, didn't he, Tim? - Yeah, I think he did, and... perhaps he could have said, 'Oh, I wanna have a bit of a korero with my caucus before I jump in this,' perhaps he could have said, 'Oh, or something like that. But, yeah, he should have done it sooner. What I will note is something that does alarm me, which I could perhaps describe as Tamaki-ism, which is the desire by a certain class to jump on somewhat unacceptable groups and say, 'You don't have a seat at the table,' and that's just a wider sense of the erosion of our institutions. And I think democracy is an institution; we need to allow as many people to have access to it as possible. So I see that as a positive sign. - Yeah, absolutely. - Yeah, absolutely. It's participatory democracy. - It's what we do with dissent. - Yes. But, Ella, I also thought that Luxon's political instincts were lacking here. - Well, eventually, he read the room, which is always useful. - Feedback's a gift. - Feedback's a gift. Please don't use 'Tamaki-ism' as a thing. - I won't use it again. No, no. - Because it's 'Tamaki-ism' as a thing. - I won't use it again. No, no. - Because it's a beautiful Maori word. - Yeah. - But he is a practitioner of a very fundamentalist extremist perspective, which I think has gathered some very broken and hurt people. - And that's what I wanna emphasise, Ella, is the broken-ness and hurtness, and we need to include those people. - We, the great mass, need to figure out ways of actually building stronger and better bridges, rather than marginalising and naming them, of actually building stronger and better bridges, rather than and that's, I think... what I hope his feedback eventually what I hope his feedback eventually showed him was, you know, 'Boss, read the room.' - Labour ` we haven't got long left - Labour ` we haven't got long left ` but Labour did a backflip too. It was a stunning reversal. They ran a mile from their own policy to try and put GST on fund managers of KiwiSaver. It was toxic for them, wasn't it? A retirement tax. - Yeah. They clearly had not thought it through at all. It's a very odd thing for David Parker. He's actually one of their better I just don't understand how he let it go through and how they've got to pay zillions for all the advisers, and they still didn't understand what a tax on our KiwiSavers would mean to people. - Yeah. (INDISTINCT CROSSTALK) - Very unclear. - I'm curious whether ` did they not think it through, or did they think they could just sneak it through? - That's the question. - It's not clear to me. - Either way, it was a very bad look for them. That is all we've got time for this morning. I can see... I can see... - Ella's like, 'Give me more!' - Ella, we'll have you back. Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us this morning on the panel. E whai ake nei ` Digital Editor Finn Hogan with who's up and who's down online. Plus ` how did Adrian Rurawhe do in his first full week as Speaker? We'll be back with In The House. Well, we are still more than a year out from Election 2023, but that isn't stopping political but that isn't stopping political parties getting an early start on their campaigns by splashing the cash across social media. - So I caught up with Digital Editor Finn Hogan earlier to see who's spending big, what they're getting for their money to see who's spending big, what and who's up and who's down online. - Well, good morning, Simon. Look` Look who's back ` back again ` it's Mr Winston Peters. It's no longer a blip. He is far ahead of Jacinda Ardern in overall engagement on Facebook. Look, we all know he's not a social media native, but clearly he knows how to play the game. If we look elsewhere in the top 10, no massive surprises ` all Opposition MPs, except for Dr Gaurav Sharma, who is clinging into the top 10 for obvious reasons. But I don't think we'll be seeing him there for long, and he won't be there next time we talk. - Well, how is this playing out in the party pages? - If we check in on the top five ` Labour have reclaimed that top spot after dropping off a little bit, which` they're doing this because they're posting a lot more than last time we checked in, which means more engagement. I think it just shows that they've realised they've lost a bit of ground and they're now trying to gain it back. - Right. How much of that is bought and paid for? We haven't really checked on the spend for a while. - Mm. Yeah, this is interesting, Simon. The money tap has well and truly been turned on. ACT have spent over $100,000 in advertising in the last 90 days. Labour not that far behind ` they've spent $60,000. It just goes to show electioneering never stops when it comes to social media, even when it's not an election year. Now, in terms of bang for buck for all of that money ` ACT are hovering around third in terms of overall engagement, which is pretty impressive considering they have far fewer followers than some of their rivals. But overall engagement and interaction rate for ACT is also quite impressive. That basically means how likely people are to click on their content. Now, it has to be said ` if you're spending $100,000, you'd really hope you were at least getting these kind of numbers. And one other qualifier that I'd put on this ` I mean, this is the aggregated data from one social media company, Crowdtangle. Other aggregators may have slightly different numbers. - All right. Let's look at other social media drama this week. Marama Davidson ` is she regretting her chocolate choice? - Yeah, look, I think there's an element of a storm in a teacup here. Obviously, it's not great, and the Opposition have been piling into her for spending 'too much time' on social media. One point I'd make here is Chris Bishop actually posts to Facebook about three times as much as Marama Davidson does on average daily. Now, of course, it's not apples to apples ` she's a minister and he is not. But, as The Spinoff as also pointed out, there's actually quite a long history of employees enjoying, But, as The Spinoff as also pointed if not endorsing, particular products on social media. So I think this whole saga really is just a reminder that the lines between politics and commerce can get a little bit blurry when it comes to social media and it's important to draw that line very thickly. - All right. Just before we go ` as always ` an honourable mention. - Well, look, I've got to shout out David Seymour this week for some very effective attacks on Government - Well, look, I've got to shout out David Seymour this week for some by clipping together all the times Jacinda Ardern 'rejects the premise' of a question in the House, setting it to a jaunty tune and pumping it on social alongside some solid memes. - I've already rejected that premise. I utterly reject the premise of that member's question. Mr Speaker, I certainly reject the premise of the last part of the member's question. - It just goes to show Parliament TV is a goldmine for this exact kind of content. I mean, we'd know ` I do it almost every week for` in the House ` and I would expect much more of it as we head towards an election and I would expect much more of it from all parties. Now, I will say that does mean some poor social media staffers are going to have to watch like 50 hours of Parliament TV every week. But my hat goes off to them, and my heart goes out, because I know exactly how they feel. - Digital Editor Finn Hogan, thank you so much. - Thank you very much, Simon. - Stay with us. We are back after the break. Only a few days into the job, Adrian Rurawhe may be regretting putting his hand up for the speakership, with raucous MPs letting loose and dropping bombs in the debating chamber. - So here's Finn Hogan with the week that was in Wellington. - FINN HOGAN: A new speaker and a new age of peace and civility in the House of Parliament. - We are addicted to spending, addicted to spending, addicted to spending. - FORCEFULLY: Was convicted of crimes against humanity. - Because this is Labour's day of shame. - I'm kidding. Of course it's the same House, though the new speaker definitely brings a gentler tone to proceedings. - Consider yourself told off. - But that won't stop MPs pouncing when they smell blood in the water across the aisle. - Let's do a U-turn on this tired, helpless and useless government and kick them out of office as soon as we can. - However, the government was giving as good as it got this week. - It's that we've worked hard to target those who need support the most. The member believes in The member believes in universally wasting money at a time that we shouldn't. - And of course, it was U-turns on the agenda. But David Parker kept a sense of humour in a bruising week for government. - I would say the better saying, would` 'You've got to know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.' (LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE) - Well, it's recess next week. Hopefully when everyone comes back, they'll be ready to... - Do a lot better than that. - MAN: That's right! - But I'm not holding my breath. I'll see you then. - Consider yourself told off. - (CHUCKLES) That's all from us` (LAUGHS) Yes, I know. Thank you so much for watching. - Nga mihi nui. See you again next weekend. Captions by Sam Baker, Maeve Kelly and Alex Walker. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - This show was brought to you by the New Zealand On Air Public Interest Journalism Fund.