- And I'm Simon Shepherd. Nau mai ki te motu ` welcome to Newshub Nation. On the programme today ` Kelvin Davis faces confronting questions about the murder of 5-year-old Malachi Subecz. - Thousands pardoned ` Chloe Swarbrick responds to President Biden's cannabis law reform. - Behind the scenes with MP and mother of eight Barbara Edmonds. - And Kiwi-Iranian Dr Negar Partow on the political earthquake that is shaking Iran. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - First in the program today ` the murder of 5-year old Malachi Subecz could have been prevented by Oranga Tamariki, according to his family and the Chief Ombudsman, Peter Boshier, who says OT still hasn't explained how it got it so wrong. - They were warned by Malachi's family about the woman who would go on to kill him, yet the Child Protection Agency did nothing. - Children's Minister Kelvin Davis will join us here in a moment. But first, Senior Reporter Conor Whitten sat down with Malachi's family to bring us this special report. And a warning ` it contains confronting evidence of violence against a child. - CONOR WHITTEN: Behind the glass in his aunt's living room are all of Malachi's favourite things. - Those there are his socks and shoes. This was his favourite movie. - He came here often to play with his cousins; birthdays, Christmas, special occasions. - They had a good bond. Yep, they had a real good bond. - In a way, he's still here. He always will be. And in the middle... - ...is Malachi. - His ashes lie in an urn in the cabinet... - Mainly for the kids. - Mm. - The cousins that are left behind, eh. - ...where a joyful little boy once loved to play. - He was happy; he was kind; he was fun-loving; he was a gentle soul. - Malachi and his mother bounced around often. For a time, they lived with his aunt Leanne. - Yeah, it was really, really good. It was nice to have my sister with me and Malachi running around being Malachi. - But at Tauranga District Court last year, when his mother was sent to prison, Malachi didn't leave with family. Instead, she sent him to live with a friend. How disappointing was it for all of you that` that he wasn't with family? - Heartbreaking. Yeah. - Because Malachi then ended up going with the woman who would go on to kill him. - Yep. - Michaela Barriball became Malachi's carer the day his mother was sent to jail. In a sleep-out at the back of this Tauranga property, she put him through what the judge called torture ` neglected, malnourished, burned and beaten. Five months later, he was taken to Starship, weighing 16kg at 5 years old. - WOMAN: - By November 12th, Malachi was dead. - Oh, brings me to tears. It was just so upsetting looking at him like that ` from what he was when he was at my place to how he was in hospital. Wasn't` Doesn't even look like Malachi. - Um, numb. I was walking like a zombie. I was just a zombie. But it was my brain saying, 'See? I told you so.' - Because Malachi's death could have been prevented. His family had warned the authorities. They were ignored at every turn. - Oh, I'm still angry, because the fact is that he could... (SWALLOWS) could have been saved. - Malachi's cousin had been fighting for custody. We've agreed not to use her face or name. She reported her concerns to Oranga Tamariki immediately ` the day after he entered Barriball's care. - FEMALE COUSIN: - But they never did that? Six days later, she sent them a photo ` already, there was evidence of suspected abuse. - How worried were you when you saw those photos? - I was worried that I knew that... I had said` which is ` gut instinct is really strong ` I said, 'He won't be here at the end of the year.' - And what did they do? - But the day after receiving the photo, OT decided no action was needed. The Chief Ombudsman says OT didn't follow the law. - It was bound to tell the Police about that, and it failed even to do that. This is one of the most severe failures I've ever encountered. - The only action OT took was to call Malachi's mother in prison. She told them she didn't have any concerns. But OT wasn't the only authority who could have stepped in to save his life. Malachi's cousin told his kindy she suspected he was being abused. Staff at Abbey's Place Childcare Centre did notice Malachi had been injured ` a black eye, bruises, scratches, swelling. They photographed his extensive injuries but never reported them to OT or Police. A colossal failure. When you put it all together... who failed Malachi? A preventable death. - We should have done everything in our power... to keep Malachi safe, and we did not. And the impact of that will live with the whanau forever. - The Ombudsman's slammed Oranga Tamariki. - Oranga Tamariki needs to answer to this, and in my engagement with Oranga Tamariki, it's been less than forthcoming as to why there was such a monumental failure. - And two more government investigations are due back in the next few months. Malachi's family still searching for justice... ...and, most of all, fighting for change. What do you hope happens out of all of this? - Change. Yeah. 100% change. They've got a` They've got a lot to answer for. - Conor Whitten with that report. Well, Children's Minister Kelvin Davis was watching it with me. Welcome to the programme, e te Minita. Thanks for your time. Some very confronting images there. Uh, for` questions for you and your Ministry ` I mean, the Ombudsman says this is one of the most severe failures he has ever encountered. It's happened on your watch. What do you have to say? - Well, uh, what happened to Malachi is horrible, and no child should ever have to experience that sort of treatment, that sort of abuse. - Mm. - We do have a very dark history in New Zealand of child abuse, and I wish I could snap my fingers and make it just all go away, but it` uh, it's gonna take a... quite some time. Since I've been the Minister, we have implemented ` or started to implement ` the future direction plan that will address a number of these issues. But, look, this is` this is the history of New Zealand. It is a stain on our history. And that's why I asked for this role ` to be the Minister for Children ` - Yeah. - because I believe that we can turn this around. - OK. But this is happening again and again and again. And in this particular case, I mean, family members followed the protocols ` they were worried ` but OT didn't follow the protocols. They didn't refer it to Police. There was a photo. And advocates like Merepeka Raukawa-Tait are saying OT is actually now complicit in murder. Are they? - No. I-I think that's very strong. Um, like I say, what happened to Malachi` uh, no` should not happen to anybody. - Mm. - Uh, OT does need to answer to what happened. There is a practice review that is ongoing. There was an agreement between OT and the family that they wouldn't contact the family until after the Ombudsman's report, but that practice report should be out in the next couple of weeks, as well as the system report. We need to get to the bottom of what happened... - Yeah` - ...and where the failures were. - But` But, look` Just in that report then by Conor, you saw that OT is not acknowledging that if they'd done their job, Malachi could well be alive. Do you agree with that? - Well` - I mean, that's what the Ombudsman's saying as well. - Yeah, and that's why we had to wait for the Ombudsman to complete his report before they approach the family. - Mm. - That's why there is a practice report that is looking at` in-depth at failings, and we` - Sure. Yeah, we're gonna come to that. But, I mean, the Ombudsman, again, said that OT has been 'less than forthcoming'. It seems like there's a siege mentality within OT and that could be to the detriment of kids and kids in their care. - So, the practice review needs to, um, happen, right? - Yup. - So` And that is what is happening. We're going through making sure that they look in-depth at what` where the failings were. So when the review is finished, that's when... - OK. - ...decisions about where accountability lies. I mean` - All right, let's talk` Have you seen a draft of that review? Because that review has been going on since May. - No, I haven't seen a review yet, because it hadn't been completed. Like I said, they` there was an agreement to wait until after the Ombudsman's report. - OK` Wh`? - The last parts of that report are being finished. - Sure. What about the staff involved? Have they been stood down while that review is being undertaken just in case this happens again? - So, what happened immediately after Malachi's death was that there was a look at what needed to change immediately at that site. Uh, after the practice review, Oranga Tamariki... - But` - ...will be making the decisions as to what needs to go on, and if it gets better` - OK. So have those staff been stood down? - Well, there has been supervision, uh, but we need to go through the practice review and make sure... - Yeah. But would you not stand`? - ...we know exactly what happened. - Yeah, I know, but would you not stand those staff down while the review is going on? Has that happened? - Uh, not to my kn` - Can you take that risk that the staff that were involved in that decision-making process, you know, are not up to it and so therefore, they need to be stood down while the review is happening? - Yeah. So, not to my knowledge, but` - So they haven't, to your knowledge. So` - But there has been, at that site, a look at what needed to happen immediately... - Yeah. - ...post-that, and changes have been made there, as well as looking across all other sites as well. - Yeah. So` On that ` there's the other review, being done by Dame Karen Poutasi, on that multi-agency response. While we wait for these reports, are you confident that another child is not going to suffer the same fate as Malachi? - That's why there were immediate changes made after what happened to Malachi, and that's why we have to go through the practice review ` to make sure that the practice is` uh, is perfect. But` - But it has been going since May, that practice review. Can you understand the frustration of not only the public but, especially, the family that this is taking so long? Malachi died last year. - Yeah. And like I said, we had to wait for the Ombudsman's report to be finished, OK? - Yeah. - But, uh... you know, I... Oranga Tamariki are... are working to improve their practice. We've put in place the future direction plan, and part of it is` of that future direction plan is the social work practice ` making sure that social workers do have the skills, the knowledge, the supervision to make sure that they are doing their job properly. - OK` - The other part of it is make` is the transfer of resources and decision-making to communities. Communities have said they know how to look after their children, and so we are passing on the responsibility and decision- making to communities. Uh, combined, all the elements of the future direction plan will keep children safer... - OK. - ...but, look, it is not an easy job. If it was easy, it would have been, um, achieved long before I was Minister. - Yeah, I appreciate that. This is, like, the most difficult issue to have to deal with. Um, I just wanna go back to the nitty-gritty of this case, though, because it is, as you say, a multi-agency review going on; a multi-agency failure. Police and Corrections knew Malachi's mother was going to prison. Why was nothing done to check whether he was going to a safe environment? - Well, look, yeah, there are` (SIGHS) This is why there is the, um, system review. That is why they are looking at all the agencies and the parts that they played, because, as was said by the whanau... - Mm. - everybody let Malachi down. So we need to look at what everybody's role was and how we can improve practice so that this doesn't happen. - OK. So when a parent goes to jail, do you think OT should be notified as a matter of course? - Uh, that's probably something that will come out of the system review. I mean, we want to make sure that all children are safe. Um, also, we've got to respect the parents' view. - Sure. - Unfortunately, Malachi's mother said that she wanted her friend to look after him. - Yeah, but nothing` No checks were made. OK? No checks were made in this instance. I mean` And the last time you were on this programme, you did say to us that you` there is a gap there that needs to be plugged. That was the last time you were on this programme. What have you done since then? - Yeah, so, this is about making sure that those reviews are completed, and then the decisions can be made with the full facts. - Mm. - I mean, look, it is urgent ` we understand. - Yes. - And it` You know, and it is a tragic situation, but we wanna make sure that we get things right, and we have to make sure that those reviews are full and they are complete. - Under the law, it's not mandatory for OT to investigate a report of concern at the moment. They have discretion. Should it be mandatory? - OK, so, to give a scale of the, um, problem ` the abuse that occurs in New Zealand ` every year, there are 70,000... - Yes. - ...reports of concern. - Mm. - So that's averaging 200 a day. - Yeah. OT says they take 10 phone calls an hour on this. - That's right. And that just highlights the scale of the problem we have in New Zealand. So... - Yeah. - Oranga Tamariki staff, they have thousands of successes a year; we hear about the failures. And it` And staff I was talking to yesterday said, 'We wish we could tell more of our success stories, 'but everyone remembers the failures.' And we've got to make sure that there are no failures... - Mm. - ...because we have to understand that's how they will be judged. - Is that the problem? Yes, that is how they will be judged, because, you know, this is life and death of our most vulnerable. - That's right. - Is this the problem? Do you need to put more resources into OT? If they're taking 10 phone calls an hour about reports of concern` and they said last year, they decided to investigate half of those. I mean, these are unsafe workloads that staff are striking over. Is this where you are falling down on the job in terms of resourcing these people? - Well, there are 50,000 children and their whanau every year that don't go into care and don't need to go any further because Oranga Tamariki keeps them safe. So we're getting down to, you know, those really` uh, you know, the worst cases. - Mm. - And Oranga Tamariki... does a great job in looking after many of them. Sadly, we are` or they are judged on the one or two failings, but that's not` - You are judged too. You are the Children's Minister. - Correct. And like I said, I asked for this job because I believe I can make a difference. It is not easy. It is difficult. We are dealing with, you know... - Yeah. - ...some of the worst cases, but Oranga Tamariki ` the changes that are being implemented are starting to make a difference. - You say that they're making a lot of wins that we don't hear about. OK. But if you end up in OT care ` and this is their own statistics ` they can't guarantee a child's safety. In the year to June '21, 8% of children in care were harmed. This is not the Malachis who didn't make it into care. These are the ones that did make it into care. Are you still committed to keeping the agency that has 8% of its children harmed under care? - Uh, so, Oranga Tamariki does a good job for many children. We have to make sure all children are looked after. Now, people have said to me, 'You just need to burn the agency to the ground.' - Mm. - And I say, 'OK, so what then? 'What replaces it?' There has to be a transition from what we have into a better... you know, safe` - Are you confident that that transition that you're overseeing is actually getting any results? We're still having, you know, one in five children` uh, one in five child deaths ` unaccidental deaths ` a year. Well, one in five` one every five weeks, sorry, I should say ` one every five weeks, a child is dying. - So, there are, um... there has been a 73% reduction in the number of uplifts. There are a thousand fewer children in care since I've become Minister. So we are making a difference. But like I say, this is tough stuff. - Mm. - And this goes back to the problem that New Zealand has with child abuse that's been for generations. And like I said, if it had been easy, someone else would've fixed it a long time. - Yeah` Yeah. I mean, you came in and you said you wanted the job and that you would be ` to quote you ` a bulldozer. Are we actually seeing you as a bulldozer in this area? Are you forcing through the change that these children need? - Yes. The answer is yes. I mean, the change is happening. There has to be a transition. Like I say, if you just burned Oranga Tamariki to the ground, what would replace it? There has to be a transition, and that transition is occurring. The resources and the decision-making is starting to go to communities. The social work practice is being looked at and improved. The culture of the organisation is being improved and looked at. The` We're starting to use more research and data to make decisions. - OK. - So there is a lot that's` - So you are confident you are on the right path? - We're on the right path, but like I say, it's not easy. And if it had been easy, someone else would have done it a long time ago. - Because` Seven children killed so far this year; 11 last year - as I said, one every five weeks. You asked for the job. How are you feeling about it? - Oh, the challenge is still there. I mean` But I'm committed to making these changes. They are changes that are necessary. They're changes that didn't happen` When Oranga Tamariki came into existence in 2017, they changed the letterhead and the` and the structure, but they didn't actually change the practice, and that's the big part ` is changing the practice to make sure our children are safe. - All right. Children's Minister Kelvin Davis, thank you very much for your time today. - Kia ora. - E whai ake nei ` coming up ` the news of the week with our political panel, Sarah Sparks, Jenny Mycroft and Liam Hare. Plus ` Chloe Swarbrick on Biden's overhaul of US cannabis law and what it could mean for New Zealand. - Hoki mai ano. Welcome back. US President Joe Biden took to Twitter yesterday to announce he's pardoning thousands of Americans convicted of simple possession of cannabis under federal law. And it's reigniting the decriminalisation debate here in New Zealand after the failed referendum to legalise cannabis in 2020. With me now is Green MP Chloe Swarbrick. Welcome, Chloe. - Morena. - So we've just seen the US pardoning thousands of people federally. Do you have any idea of the number of people who have cannabis convictions for possession or use here? - Yeah, we do. So the Ministry of Justice stats tell us that since 1980, 120,000 New Zealanders have been convicted for possession or use of cannabis in this country. So that's 120,000 New Zealanders who are currently walking around who have those convictions for a drug that 80% of New Zealanders will use by the time that they out of their teenage years. And if that is not an indication of just how broken this law is, then we'll get into it. - And what limitations does that place on those people? - Yeah, so, I mean, obviously, those who are in favour of the status quo will say, 'Oh, well, those people aren't going to prison.' Well, yeah, sure, not all of them are. But the reality is that those convictions are an impediment to employment, to housing, to travel and to future opportunities. We heard from the Minister yesterday saying that, 'Oh, well, you know, the Clean Slate Act exists.' Yeah, sure. But again, it's a rigmarole that certain people who end up getting these convictions have to go through, which is fundamentally inequitable when you look at the stats, particularly disproportionately when it's Maori being prosecuted ` those who do end up being prosecuted for a substance that the majority of New Zealanders use. 635,000 Kiwis were using cannabis last year alone. - So I just want to talk to you really briefly before we get into the nitty-gritty of how what Joe Biden is doing in the US may translate here, but the Clean Slate Act, for example ` would that solve this problem for many of those people? - Well, yeah, when you're talking about, again, simple possession, but things obviously get a little bit more muddied when you're talking about the fact that possession offences are often being paired with other offences. However, we do know that in the last two years, when you are pairing possession and use offences of substances, particularly cannabis, with those other offences, that possession is the highest drug offence that they are being charged for. So again, when you're muddying the waters and pairing all of those offences together, again, it gets a little bit difficult to disentangle. So sure, there are some ways that people can have those issues resolved through likes of the Clean Slate Act. And then you'll hear from the Minister saying that the 2019 legislation that we got through, amending the Misuse of Drugs Act, which entrenches police discretion ` something which I thought really hard for and the Greens fought really hard for in the wake of the synthetics crisis ` sure, that goes some way to addressing the reality of what was already happening on the front lines and saying the police are allowed to use their discretion and divert people. But again, what we're seeing is that that discretion enables and opens the door to discrimination. What we need is a law that says this is the baseline approach that we're going to take to all cannabis offences, to all drug offences, and particularly to possession, because right now, who is benefiting from criminal prosecution of those with simple drug offences? - Well, I want to get to Andrew Little, because he was quick on to Twitter yesterday. - (LAUGHS) We were all on Twitter yesterday ` Biden and... yeah. - (LAUGHS) It exploded. That's right. And he was saying that the government here in New Zealand can't pardon people in the same way that Joe Biden can. So don't expect a similar move here in New Zealand. Which is technically true, isn't it? - Look, technically, there are kind of two ways that the government could go about it if they wanted to. One is a royal prerogative, and sure, that is a little bit complicated, but we do have precedent for its application. The other is an act of Parliament. We have a sovereign parliament that is able to pass any legislation that it wants to and regularly does. You know, we're the fastest lawmakers in the West. So it very much is the case that if the government's kind of refrain is, 'Hey, look, this is kind of already the practice,' and we also heard from opposition members throughout the cannabis legalisation debate that even they think that decriminalisation should kind of be the status quo. - Yeah. - Then let's entrench that in law because, right now, nobody is benefiting from this ad hoc approach and this very discriminatory approach to cannabis prosecution. - But there is just no political will for that, is there? - (LAUGHS) We're rallying. We're trying our best. I mean, look, I'm talking to my colleagues and Te Pati Maori, it appears as that we've got some consensus there. So I think there's at least 12 votes in our parliament that are keen on it. And it's been no secret that for the past few years subsequent to the referendum` because obviously the referendum` look, I'm the first to admit ` yeah, if 34,000 people voted differently, then we would have had legal, regulated cannabis in this country. They didn't. So let's grapple with that reality. So that means that that specific niche prescription of how we could legally regulate cannabis failed. - Yes. - That doesn't take off the table harm reduction, evidence-based approaches to substances across the board, especially when dealing with the fundamentally broken Frankenstein of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1975. So we can do that. - But it does take off the table law changes, politically, for Labour. - It takes off in a very prescribed way that we could go about legally regulating cannabis. It doesn't take off the table broader drug law reform. It would be nonsense for us to say that` you know, for example, the largest petition that was ever tabled in Parliament prior to this term was actually against homosexual law reform. Times change. - Mm. - But also, we can take different approaches where it's found out that people are not in favour of, again, a very specific, proposed way that we could regulate something. - Yeah, did we miss an opportunity there to decriminalise it? Was it too black and white ` legalise? Should there have been a decriminalised option in there as well? - Look, it was the best that could be negotiated at the time. I wasn't in the room. There were three parties in Government, and what I do know is that there was a logjam. And I think people, understandably, can forget just how much we've moved on this issue in the last five years. You know, five years ago, when I first came into Parliament and inherited the Medicinal Cannabis Amendment Bill from my colleague Julie Anne Genter, that was wild! That was radical! - (LAUGHS) - And then we had the government block voting that` sorry, we had National and New Zealand First block voting that down and a number of Labour MPs deciding to also vote it down. Then we had the Government passing their own, and again, we saw that by virtue of taking that really pharmaceutical approach that we have a status quo now that means that 94% of medicinal cannabis patients are still getting access through the black market. - Yeah. - Whichever way you look at it, this is not working for anyone. - I want to quickly talk to you` very briefly, because we're running out of time. But it's important to` your bill on harm reduction for alcohol, banning advertising around it. It is due to come up soon. How are you going getting the votes for that? Because it's a conscience vote for Labour, right? - It is. It should be a conscience vote for all parliamentarians. So I guess just to lay it out actually for the public because it's a really interesting insight into how a democracy can or should work, and that's that you need 61 votes of 120 parliamentarians to pass any law. We have 12 guaranteed from the Greens, which means that` from the Greens and Te Pati Maori, which means that we need 49 more. Labour have 65, so we could lose 16 of them. And also, you know, it'd be great if National decided to work with their consciences. And I know I've been talking to a number of them who potentially we could see some movement, but I have been really encouraged by the engagement, particularly with the Labour Party backbench, who see this harm in their communities. This is one of the most straightforward things that we could do, the lowest-hanging fruit, what I thought was going to be the least controversial, the most evidence-based. Give back local democracy to create local alcohol policies and restrict marketing for one of the most harmful substances, legal or illegal, that we know of. - OK. Well, thank you so much for joining us here on The Nation this morning, Chloe Swarbrick. - Thank you. - E haere ake nei ` coming up on our panel on the politics of the week ` Sarah Sparks, Jenny Marcroft and Liam Hehir. Plus ` getting to know our MPs inside the home and childhood memories of MP for Mana and mother of eight Barbara Edmonds. - Hoki mai ano ` welcome back. I'm joined now by our panel, PR consultant Sarah Sparks, former New Zealand First MP Jenny Marcroft, and lawyer and National Party member Liam Hare. Welcome to you all. I'm going to start with you, Liam, on Chloe Swarbrick there. Do you think there's` is there any political will left outside of the Greens for a decriminalisation or a law change in the way the US is done on cannabis? - Well, we won't be doing it in the way that the US has done, and you explained why in the interview. I think you would find that there's broad support in New Zealand generally for decriminalisation. If the campaigners had gone for decriminalisation as an option, that almost certainly would have would have passed. But I don't think that means the political will there, and certainly not in this Parliament, and really what it comes down to is that this is one of those issues where, despite having broad support, there is such intensity of opposition that political parties and governments in particular don't want to poke the bear on it and have to deal with the controversy. So really, a referendum gives you the cover to be able to do it. We had a referendum. They were a bit too ambitious in terms of the referendum proposal. - Yes. - And I think that, for the time being, anyway, I would be surprised if we see any action. - So we've missed the moment for decriminalisation, you think as well, Sarah? - Yes, but I think the Chloe's being very courageous in terms of keeping this going, because, I mean, I think in terms of Maori and how many are impacted with convictions, and it ruins lives, so, you know, we've also got to think about common-sense approaches and compassion. She's very courageous, compassionate, common-sense, and I really hope that there's more support and appetite for it. - Well, Jenny, if the US, which is where we have modelled a lot of our drug laws on ` the war on drugs, for example ` if the US is rethinking this, should we also be thinking rethinking it here in New Zealand? - Well, I think we've got a very clear mandate from the referendum which said` most of New Zealand said, 'No, we don't want to reform...' - Legalise. - Well, to legalise marijuana. So that's that, really, and from a political perspective, as mentioned already, why would the government want to go there? Grant Robertson has already indicated in terms of some changes, maybe, coming around sports and advertising of, for example, alcohol. They could be making their own changes in some of that space, which is clearly one of Chloe's kaupapa, which is about reduction of harm, which, you know, she should be acknowledged for that ` she's been very passionate about that over the five years that she's been in Parliament. - Well, another super interesting interview this morning about Malachi Subecz's death, which` You will have all seen Conor Whitten's story and the Minister's interview. What did you think of what you heard from the Minister, Liam? - I mean, I was pretty frustrated. I mean, I guess it's the case that he had to front up, but I mean, nothing really interesting or insightful to saying that, you know, to say, 'Right, wait for the report. Wait for the report. Wait for the report.' - We're sick of waiting for reports. - But the Ombudsman said they` OT failed to do the bare minimum. You don't need a report to be able to issue meaningful comment on that, and to describe yourself as a still being a bulldozer when you are just playing, you know, playing for time in terms of waiting for the report all the time, it's really, really frustrating. I read that report last night. I had my 5-year-old son sitting on my lap as it did it. It was really, really hard, and any parent would feel the same way, and I think anybody who was upset ` which is every civilised person would be upset by what's happened ` would feel much comfort about this in any way at all. - Yeah, it is a really wrenching report. They all are. And it is` Isn't it` It is very frustrating, isn't it, to have to wait for this process to play out with the multiple reviews? What did you think, Jenny? - Well, you know, OT should not be let off the hook over this, absolutely not. But at the same time, I think the Minister should be congratulated for fronting up. It would have been quite easy for him to say 'not available' until after his reviews have been conducted, so big ups to Kelvin on that. When you think about the number of calls of concern coming into OT ` you know, 70,000 a year ` that's a phenomenal amount of pressure going on to that organisation which indicates that the extent of the problem of children being harmed in our society. One of the things that I think the Minister could perhaps spend some more time explaining is what are those changes going on inside Oranga Tamariki? For example, I understand that there is a programme of cultural development being undertaken that's rolling out right across this entire Ministry of 5000 staff ` getting the change on the ground inside that system so that you get rid of that or people become aware of their own cultural` or unconscious bias ` that will change how people are operating on the ground. Getting closer to working with community ` he indicated that. Puao-te-ata-tu, which is a report written 30 years ago ` the previous minister, my former cabinet` Caucus colleague, I should say, Tracy Martin, she started that project, operationalised that. That is working directly with iwi so that if there is a call of concern coming into OT, iwi become involved right away. They have the networks going out into the community to wrap around the whanau. Those changes, we need to see more of that and hear more about what is happening in there. - Sarah, do you think`? The Minister has vowed to fix Oranga Tamariki. Do you think that's possible? - Well, I don't think that it falls on the shoulder of just the Minister. This is not just an all-of-government problem; this is an all-of-nation problem, all-of-community problem. When we operate in silos` Like, how many people would have known what was going on with that little boy? I mean, I cried reading the case report. You know, he was in hospital, 16kgs. It's just devastating. So, you know, good to see the Minister` but the system is broken, and also, what has happened with the practising certificates of the caseworkers involved? There should be censuring. There's a whole lot of operational things that should have been done straight off the bat; there should have been transparency to show the public to give us confidence, but there is no confidence, and that is the issue. But it's also around what's happening in our communities. The Minister was right ` he was talking about partnering and even` and I know that there's a devolvement into community, but I can tell you if this was Whanau Ora, it wouldn't happen. - Can I just say` - Liam, I can tell you're itching over here! - All that's really true, but let's just remember the Ombudsman said the government` the Minister's department failed to do the bare minimum. We're not talking about a marginal case. We're not talking about anything overly complicated ` failed to do the bare minimum. And one thing I'm really sick of` It's a bit like, you know, when you hear 'thoughts and prayers' ` I am sick of hearing politicians respond to these cases by saying, 'No child should ever have to go through`' I mean, it's a given, all right? There's nothing` You're adding nothing to it. It's trite. We've got the highest rate of child abuse in the OECD. Let's get past the pleasantries and saying that no child should have to go through it. It's just` We all know that. - Yeah, and the minister did say child abuse is a complex problem, didn't he? You know, and I think we can all agree on that. - And any of us that have been` That have lived experience of family violence, we understand how silencing it is for those children in that situation, and I speak from personal experience. So a minister who's prepared to take on the worst portfolio in government... Because at the end of the day, if a child dies, that is a tragedy, we all have to look in the mirror and say, 'How was I responsible in any part for that?' - Sarah. - Well, you know, there's been a death, so it's like death in the workplace in terms` You know, if you look in the commercial sector if that happens, from an OSH perspective, there are always criminal charges. So, you know, I know our kuia are calling out for criminal charges as well. So there needs to be some accountability, because that will build the trust and faith and confidence and also the responsibility that we have in society as members, as individuals ourselves, as families, as well as those that operate within the agencies. - You know, I think we all can agree we need to do much, much better, don't we? - Absolutely! - Thank you so much for joining us and being a wonderful panel. We never have enough time on these things, but thanks so much for joining us here on The Nation. E whai ake nei ` hijabs, high schoolers and hardliners ` insights into the Iran protests from Kiwi-Iranian expert Dr Negar Partow. Plus ` behind the scenes with MP and mother of eight Barbara Edmonds. - Welcome back. To international politics now, and the political upheavals in Iran. - Sparked last month when 22-year-old Mahsa Amini died in the custody of the morality police, accused of violating Iran's mandatory headscarf law. Since then, according to Amnesty International, at least 52 people have been killed. - And more than 1000 people arrested, including journalists and artists. Let's take a look. - Mass protests have continued across Iran as more and more young people take to the streets in defiance of the country's hard-line Islamic government. - Iran knows very well the power of its women. (CROWD CHANTS) - For years, young, especially urban woman have been pushing the limits of a mandatory dress code. (CROWD CHANTS AND APPLAUDS) - Schoolgirls across the country flouting the law, many even chanting, 'Death to the dictator.' (CROWD CHANTS) (CROWD CHANTS) - But at the United Nations this week, President Ebrahim Raisi made no mention of the protests. - They need to know that they're not alone. - Iranian woman should be allowed to wear what they want to wear. - We are going to stand with you. Women, life, freedom! - Well, Dr Negar Partow is a Senior Lecturer in security studies at Massey University in Wellington, and she grew up in Iran and has lived in New Zealand since 2002. Her areas of expertise include religion and politics, gender politics, the Middle East, and Islam and politics. So you're perfectly positioned to talk to all of this. Welcome to the programme. - Morena. - What's your feeling when you see the protests erupting and these young women and girls protesting in Iran? What are you feeling when you're seeing that? - Oh, this is fantastic. After such a long time, I can talk about` speak about something transformational that is led by woman. This is` This is actually the blossoming of the seeds that the previous generations of Iranian women have been seeding. So if you if you look at Iran's structure since 1979 ` Iranian women have lost a lot of their political power as well as their freedoms, but they never gave up, so they pushed for education. Now you can see over 60% of Iranians, the younger generation of Iranian women, have tertiary education. They are educated in universities, they are in the job market. They have very good positions. And all of a sudden, over two or three generations of fighting, civil society, particularly Iranian women, understood that you cannot push when you have a system that has quite a lot of military power as well as quite a lot of financial abilities. So the only way to do it is to think about it long-term through education and just kind of push from civil society part. But also now they're in the position that they can actually negotiate from above. So all of a sudden, the whole relationship between Iranian women and the Islamic Republic have been transformed. So in the last two days, I can see photos of women who, for the first time after 44 years, can go to the banks and different places without hijab, and this is this is a form of resistance for equality. This is the first time we see this in the Middle East after a long time. Well, I want to acknowledge the bravery, actually, of some of these women, too, because they are taking real risks here, aren't they? Absolutely. I mean, there is a brutality; there is no limitations of the practice of violence. So when they go into that` Many of them are plain clothes-forces. They have no` In fact, they get promoted, they get quite a lot of praise if they make sure that these rioters, as they call it, are back into the streets. But also I wanted to mention that this is not only a pressure you can see in the streets. So street demonstration is only the manifestation of a much bigger push that women are doing. So, for example, some of my colleagues in Iran are now writing letters again and again to the ministry, to different parts in order to push for change. And to me, that's a very, very happy situation. - Absolutely. I wanted to ask you, just briefly, if you'd had any experience with the morality police. - Oh, many times, many times. (LAUGHS) So I was also in the` Part of the student demonstrations in 1997. So what you see in the streets happens quite regularly. The difference` There are a couple of differences between my generation's uprising and the new one. So in my generation, we still have that kind of fear instilled in us. So we would never, for example, show resistance, take our hijab off because we were not sure about how much support, how much international support, how much national support we would get. But now even the university students are supported by primary school students, secondary school students, mothers are outside ` so all of a sudden, I think, there is a major push. And the interesting part is that we, in our generation, when we're fighting, we could never connect to other feminist movements. Now the Iranian feminist movement is very closely connected to Afghanistan's feminist movement. I mean, the explosion of the Hazaras' school, have had a serious ramification, and they are` It's gonna be a major shift in the whole Middle East rather than exclusively in Iran. - And you've touched on two things there that I want to dive into a little bit more, which is ` you know, how did the men fit in? Because the men are standing behind this women's protest as well. It has got the support of men, too, doesn't it? - Yes. So there is a generational shift. - Yes. - So during the last two generations` And I think that's partly ` I give credit to men ` but also to mothers who raise those men of this generation who actually started to support equality, but also go beyond that, so that the movement we see today talks about environmental protection, talks about animal rights, talks about equality, talks about being a part of the world rather than being isolated and hijacked by a system that introduces them as violence and isolationist. So there's a quite a lot of dimension, different dimension, and it is a great opportunity to see that they are now caring about environment. It's not only about gender equality, but much more expansive. And so this is a feature, I suppose, of that generational change, and these protests seem spontaneous. - So` Though, what you're telling us is that it has been building behind the scenes for a while, but they are, for now at least, leaderless. Is that a strength or weakness, do you think? - Yeah, it partly is because of the structure of the government. So, when you do have a totalitarian system, they impose so much pressure on any form of civil society that you cannot have a political organisation that operates. So at the moment it is decentralised and it is a social movement, but, yes, that is a that is an issue that I think even the civil society understands that we need to address this issues ` not to have one leader, but to have a vision about what would a post-uprising government would look like and how are we going to live together? Because Iranians have` The religiosity problem in Iran, it comes through zealots who are very religious and very protective of religion, but also you have non-religious people and anti-religious people. So we need to kind of have a reconciliation plan that brings all of these factors` factions together and actually have an idea about how all these people are going to live together. - OK, I've got two questions for you. I know we haven't gone long left ` I'm gonna wrap them up together. We have seen the uprisings before, we've seen protests before. What do you think is going to happen this time? Is a crackdown looming, and what can New Zealand do to support those women and those people who are protesting for equality and human rights in Iran? - So, yes, the crackdown, yes, will continue. I personally, from personal experience, as well as my academic work, I know that the Islamic Republic is not going to give up. There's too much at stake. So they're gonna fall. And I believe that civil society of Iran kind of finds different methods and different strategies to deal with that. So we might see that the street protests kind of calms down a little bit, but something else comes up, you see different letters, you see all of a sudden a global support of Iranian woman. And I think that global support is significantly important. Before this event, we didn't have that. Now, what New Zealand can do, in fact, is to raise these issues in the international environment, particularly like the United Nations forums. We do have a quite a lot of credibility in the United Nations Security Council as well as different forums, and that would give us an option to raise the matters and celebrate the bravery of women who are fighting quite strongly. - Let them know that we see them. Dr Negar Partow, thank you so much for joining us on the Nation this morning. - Thank you very much, ka kite. - Ka kite. Kia u tonu mai, e te iwi ` stay with us; we are back after the break. - Welcome back. To Backstory, where we go inside the homes and childhood photo albums of our MPs to learn more about what motivates them to make the decisions they do for all of us. Today, the MP for Mana and mother of eight Barbara Edmonds shares her back story. - I am the youngest of four children. I've got an older brother and two older sisters. My parents came to New Zealand in 1976, and, like many Pacific families, they came looking for the milk and honey that New Zealand provided. When the Dawn Raids apology was given in 2021, some stories came out from my family, which were actually not really well known. And there's still a lot of intergenerational trauma in some sense from that. They settled in Ponsonby in a rat-infested place, and then as the Pacific tide moved down to South Auckland to where the housing was more affordable, my father, who was the only educated one out of his family of 19, he decided to move in the opposite direction and took our family to the North Shore. My earliest memories really are of my mother being sick. She was diagnosed with cancer. She passed away when I was 4, and then we buried her on my 5th birthday. I recall my aunty saying to me that, 'All your mum cared about 'was making sure you had a birthday cake on your 5th birthday.' So still, you know, emotional time thinking about it. But I think what the lesson that I've learnt growing up is that` and it's come out quite a bit during my politics and what I've done in the community` is that life's really short, and you've just got to take hold of the opportunities that you're given. My dad was amazing. He brought us up on the domestic purposes benefit. So he basically gave up the job to look after Mum for two years while she was sick, and then he brought us up on the DPB. On my mother's deathbed, she told my father that she wanted him to marry someone from her family, cos they would treat her children as their own. My stepmother, Lasela, or Rachel ` she is my mum. She basically brought me up from when I was 4. She was sent over from Samoa to come help my dad look after us because she is a family member. Lasela has been a huge influence in my life. My husband, Chris ` he is my cousin's best friend, and he came to my 16th birthday party. That's where I met him. So, you know, one thing led to another. And a number of months later, then we were going out. So we've been together since I was 16. He's amazing. He's the most humblest man. Doesn't like politics at all. (LAUGHS) But just the quiet supporter in the background. You know, he makes sure that I can focus on what I need to do. But his focus is on making sure our kids have a stable upbringing, making sure they get to their many sports or school commitments. And he's just solid. I fell pregnant in my second year of law school, and my husband, Chris, was working in low-paid timber machinist job in a timber factory. And so we had to make a decision whether I continued to study or whether I stopped and he basically find a better job sort of thing. We decided that I would continue to study. We knew it would be an investment in our family's future. By the time I finished my two degrees, in five and a half years' time, we had four children, and I was pregnant with number five. And it was tough times. You know, when we had our first couple of kids, we basically didn't have much money in our hand at the end of the week. We had about $8. I remember some nights sort of opening up the laptop at 10.30 after you've cleaned the house, put the kids to bed and being fully pregnant and having this baby squirming around while you're trying to do an assignment that was due the next day. It's really unusual to have a big family these days ` like, really unusual. We had a girl, a boy and two more girls, and we really wanted to have a boy for our older son, so we had to put a limit on it. We said, OK, no more than seven; no more after I'm 30. And then we kind of joke about it with people. We just say, 'Well, we lost the TV remote, and number eight came along.' So` But I'm done. Absolutely done. (CHUCKLES) We are here at Porirua Park. I've got really great memories here ` both of my kids playing on this field. When Jerry Collins, beloved club member` when he passed away, he was brought back here. I feel very much at home here. I've been involved in here since my children were playing rugby, and I was on their junior committee; I was on their senior committee, and I was also their lawyer. (CHUCKLES) Every winter, it's a challenge for me and my husband. One year we had 10 sports games in a weekend to get them to. Last year we had eight; this year, luckily, we only had five. So yeah, a real juggle. When we moved to Wellington, we didn't have any of our immediate family. We had to find our village. And that was the greatest thing about living here in Porirua ` was the village that surrounded us whenever we needed support for our family. And that village is still here supporting our family. Can I have a soy latte and a coconut latte? One of the normal things that people do when they finish law school is they get a summer clerkship. I had the choice between the IRD National Office or the clerkship to go to when I finished my degrees. We took the certainty; we took the permanent role, and that was the IRD National Office that was in Wellington. So we made the move down here. So I've got four, as you would say, Blues babies and four Hurricanes babies. So I joined the policy unit of Inland Revenue. I was their first Pacific policy analyst ever hired. And then I went to the Beehive, and I looked after two National Party ministers as the public servant ` the IRD private secretary for both Michael Woodhouse and Judith Collins. And then when Labour came in in 2017, I switched roles. I became a political adviser to Stuart Nash. Fast-forward to a few years later, to when I had to make the choice as to whether I stood for selection for Labour ` in my mind, I was just thinking of basically the impact on my family and the sacrifices they would have to make to allow me to be able to do my job. A lot of the time I have to remember why I'm here and remember the journey that the people that brought me here and the sacrifices that they made in order for me to have opportunities that I have now. Always hold that to heart and remember that there are people out there that might not have the same opportunities I have. And they're the reason why I'm standing ` is to make sure that they still have the opportunities that I had as a child and those safety nets that protected me as a child. - Wow. Eight and done. - I think that's a good number. (CHUCKLES) - Nga mihi nui. Kia ora tatou. Thank you so much for tuning in. Don't forget to vote today in your local body elections. You have until midday. - Nga mihi nui. We will see you again next weekend. Captions by Able. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 - He mea tona ki te hotaka nei na te Public Interest Journalism Fund.