- TENA TATOU KATOA. I'M REBECCA WRIGHT. - AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. NAU MAI KI TE MOTU, WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` WE SPEAK WITH TRACEY MARTIN AS SHE SETS THE SCENE FOR OUR BIGGEST MEDIA REFORM IN DECADES. - ANNOUNCEMENTS AND TENSIONS IN IMMIGRATION ` MICHAEL WOOD JOINS US LIVE. - DEBI EDWARD IN BEIJING AHEAD OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY CONGRESS ` WHAT WILL IT TELL US ABOUT THE SUPERPOWER'S NEXT MOVES? - AND DYLAN REEVE ON HIS NEW BOOK AND WHAT THE SPREAD OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES COULD MEAN FOR OUR POLITICS. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2022 FIRST IN THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` AN UPDATE ON THE WAR IN UKRAINE. WE'RE CROSSING NOW TO OUR COLLEAGUE LISETTE REYMER IN KHARKIV, IN THE EAST OF THE COUNTRY. LISETTE, WE HAVE SEEN A MAJOR ESCALATION THIS WEEK; HAS THE AGGRESSION CONTINUED WHERE YOU ARE OVERNIGHT? - IT HAS. BUT I GUESS IT IS PART OF THE REASON WHY WE ARE INSIDE. THERE ARE STRICT CURFEWS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY. BUT PARTICULARLY HERE IN THE EAST. IT IS A VIRTUAL BLACKOUT ACROSS THE CITY. EVEN EARLY THIS EVENING, WHEN WE ARRIVED, I ACTUALLY THOUGHT OUR HOTEL WASN'T OPEN BECAUSE IT WAS THAT DARK. THEY DON'T LIKE TO DRAW ATTENTION TO ANY OF THE BUILDINGS AT THIS TIME OF THE EVENING WHEN THE SIRENS ARE GOING CONSTANTLY. WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN SOME STRIKES HERE IN KHARKIV, THIS TIME HITTING ENERGY INFRASTRUCTURE ` POWER STATIONS. WE ARE SEEING A LOT OF THAT AT THE MOMENT ` A CHANGE IN TACTICS AS WE APPROACH WINTER BECAUSE THE RUSSIANS WANT TO MAKE THOSE COLD MONTHS AS UNCOMFORTABLE AS POSSIBLE FOR THE UKRAINIANS BY CUTTING OFF THE ELECTRICITY AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. UNFORTUNATELY, IT HASN'T JUST BEEN THE INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE'VE SEEN BEING TARGETED THIS WEEK. THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE, THE LATEST THAT THEY HAVE SAID JUST TODAY ` THAT THERE HAVE BEEN HUNDREDS OF STRIKES ON THIS COUNTRY JUST THIS WEEK. MAJORITY OF THOSE HAVE BEEN ON CIVILIAN TARGETS. VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS SAID HE DOES NOT REGRET TARGETING THE CIVILIAN RESIDENTIAL AREAS, BUT HE HAS MADE THE COMMENT THAT AT THE MOMENT, FOR NOW, HE DOES NOT SEE THE NEED FOR ANY FURTHER MASSIVE STRIKES. WHETHER OR NOT WE CAN BELIEVE HIM IS ANOTHER MATTER. THE UKRAINIANS HERE CERTAINLY DO NOT. - WE'RE HEARING FROM MOSCOW THIS MORNING THAT PUTIN'S MOBILISED 220,000 CIVILIANS IN HIS DRAFT AND BELARUS IS ALSO MOBILISING ITS FORCES ALONG THE BORDER WITH UKRAINE. - THE LATEST ON THAT PARTIAL MOBILISATION IS THAT PUTIN HAS INDICATED IT WOULD WRAP UP IN TWO WEEKS' TIME. HE'S HIT AROUND 220,000 ENLISTING SOLDIERS JOINING THE ARMY. HE WANTED AROUND 300,000. HE IS CONFIDENT HE WILL HAVE THAT BY TWO WEEKS TIME. THE PARTIAL MOBILISATION WAS CONTROVERSIAL. HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF YOUNG RUSSIAN MEN FLED THE COUNTRY. IT WAS DONE BECAUSE OF THE STRONG COUNTEROFFENSIVE THAT THE UKRAINIANS WERE CONDUCTING IN THE EAST, NOT FAR FROM WHERE WE ARE, PUTTING PRESSURE ON PUTIN. THE COMMENTARY REMAINS THAT HE WAS NOT ONLY RUNNING OUT OF MISSILES BUT MEN AS WELL. THAT IS WHY HE HAD THIS MASSIVE DRAFT TAKE PLACE IN RUSSIA. SIMILAR STORY FOR BELARUS ` IN THAT CASE, WHERE COUPLE OF DAYS AFTER A MEETING WITH PUTIN, THE PRESIDENT OF BELARUS CAME AND SAID YES, HE WOULD BE AMASSING HIS TROOPS ON THE BORDER WITH UKRAINE AS WELL. HE HAD DETAILS, WARNINGS THAT UKRAINE AND THE WEST WAS SUPPOSEDLY POSING A THREAT TO BELARUS AND THAT IS WHY HE WAS GETTING HIS TROOPS TO THE BORDER THERE. THERE ARE CONCERNS THAT BELARUS COULD BE ABOUT TO JOIN THIS WAR. THE WEST AND UKRAINE ADAMANT THAT THEY HAVE NO MOTIVATION TO HEAD IN THAT DIRECTION. - YOU'VE BEEN IN THE COUNTRY FIVE TIMES THIS YEAR. HOW ARE THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE COPING AFTER SEVEN MONTHS? - CERTAINLY AS DEFIANT AS EVER. I DON'T THINK THAT IS EVER GOING TO CHANGE. IT'S PROBABLY JUST RAMPING UP AS THE MONTHS GO PAST. IT WOULD BE UNTRUE TO SAY THAT PEOPLE HERE ARE NOT GROWING TIRED. YOU CAN SEE THE EXHAUSTION OF EVERYDAY UKRAINIANS. EVEN FACES THAT WE HAVE GROWN FAMILIAR WITH OVER TIME, YOU CAN SEE THAT THIS IS TAKING ITS TOLL ON THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES. MEN HAVE BEEN AWAY FROM THEIR WIVES AND CHILDREN FOR UP TO EIGHT MONTHS NOW. AND THOSE WHO HAVE HAD THEIR CHILDREN AND WIVES COME BACK WHO HAVE CONSIDERED IT SAFE ENOUGH, THEY LIVE IN THIS VERY TENSE ENVIRONMENT. THERE ARE SOME NERVES AND ANXIETY AS WELL AS JUST THAT ` SUCH STRONG DETERMINATION AND FOCUS ON ONE CAUSE IS JUST SO DRAINING. WE ARE APPROACHING WINTER, WHICH WE KNOW THAT IS GOING TO BE DIFFICULT AGAIN. AT THE MOMENT, IF YOU ASK PEOPLE HOW WORRIED THEY ARE ABOUT THE CONCEPT OF A NUCLEAR WAR OR ADDITION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS INTO THIS FIGHT, THEY KIND OF SHRUG AT YOU AND SAY, 'LOOK AROUND. 'WE'VE GOT SO MUCH ON OUR PLATE ALREADY. 'WE CANNOT DEAL WITH WORRYING ABOUT THE HYPOTHETICALS AT THE MOMENT. 'WE HAVE TO GET THROUGH THE DAY.' THEY'RE CERTAINLY DETERMINED AS RESILIENT AS EVER. - LISETTE, THANK YOU. LISETTE REYMER IN KHARKIV. CLOSER TO HOME NOW, WHERE WE'RE WITNESSING THE BIGGEST MEDIA REFORMS SINCE THE 1980S. TVNZ AND RNZ ARE MERGING NEXT YEAR ` THE LEGISLATION IS WORKING ITS WAY THROUGH PARLIAMENT NOW. AND LEADING THE REFORMS IS FORMER NZ FIRST MP TRACEY MARTIN. TENA KOE. WELCOME. WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT THIS FOR A WHILE. WE'VE BEEN TURNING IT ALL OVER, AND I KEEP COMING BACK TO THE QUESTION ` WHY ARE WE DOING THIS? BECAUSE WE DON'T SEEM TO KNOW. - WHICH IS INTERESTING, SO WE HAVE TO KEEP REPEATING THE WHY. I CERTAINLY UNDERSTAND THAT. THOSE IN THE MEDIA WILL KNOW THAT THERE HAS BEEN A MASSIVE CHANGE INSIDE THE INTERNATIONAL AND DOMESTIC ECOSYSTEM IN THE LAST DECADE ALONE. AND THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE NOW THAT ARE PLAYING INSIDE THE MEDIA SPACE THAT WE DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO. SO THERE'S BEEN A DISRUPTER. PART OF THE REASON FOR DOING THIS IS THE FACT THAT THAT DISRUPTOR INTERNATIONALLY IS HAVING AN IMPACT ON WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE IN NEW ZEALAND. WE'RE SEEING A DROP IN LINEAR AUDIENCES. WE'RE SEEING A DROP IN SORT OF AM-FM RADIO AUDIENCES. OUR PEOPLE ARE GOING OTHER PLACES, AND WE NEED OUR PUBLIC MEDIA TO BE IN THOSE PLACES SO THAT OUR PEOPLE, ALL OF NEW ZEALANDERS, CAN HEAR AND SEE THEMSELVES ACROSS THOSE MULTIPLE PLATFORMS. - SO DID RADIO NEW ZEALAND COME TO YOU AND SAY, 'WE NEED HELP,' OR DID TVNZ COME TO THE GOVERNMENT AND SAY, 'WE NEED YOUR HELP WITH THIS PROBLEM'? OR IS IT A GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION HERE? - NO, I THINK IF YOU ACTUALLY GO BACK TO JUST BEFORE COVID, THE WHOLE OF THE MEDIA SECTOR ACTUALLY CAME TO THE GOVERNMENT AND SAID, 'WE HAVE GOT A PROBLEM. 'THERE IS A MASSIVE DISRUPTER COMING FROM FACEBOOK AND GOOGLE AND SO ON AND SO FORTH.' THAT LEAD TO WORK AROUND HOW DO WE MAKE SURE THAT OUR PUBLIC MEDIA IS SUSTAINABLE INTO THE FUTURE AND THE PLACES WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE? AND THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL CABINET PAPER IN 2020, WHICH LED ON TO THE BUSINESS CASE, WHICH LED ON TO THE PIECE OF WORK THAT WE'RE DOING NOW. - RIGHT. I WANT TO TALK TO YOU JUST A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT, TOO, BECAUSE WE ARE SPENDING $370 MILLION ON THIS. AND AS MELISSA LEE POINTS OUT, THAT KIWIS ACTUALLY HAVE` WE CAN TALK ABOUT THE NUMBERS` NO IDEA WHAT THEY'RE GETTING FOR THAT MONEY BECAUSE THERE WAS NO COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS DONE. WHY NOT? - THAT'S NOT QUITE CORRECT, ACTUALLY. SO FIRST OF ALL` - THE DOLLARS? - WELL, BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ACTUALLY. SO FIRST OF ALL, THERE'S $40 MILLION OVER A THREE-YEAR PERIOD BEING INVESTED ON THE CHANGE IN TRANSITION. AND SOME OF THAT IS AROUND ALIGNING ADMINISTRATIVE SYSTEMS, ALIGNING JOB DESCRIPTIONS AND PAYROLL AND SO ON. THE $309 MILLION` OR $327 MILLION, WHICH WAS MADE UP OF $109 MILLION EACH YEAR FOR THE NEXT THREE YEARS, IS AROUND THE INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT THAT BOTH RNZ AND TVNZ WOULD NEED INDEPENDENTLY, IF THEY WERE REMAINING INDEPENDENT, TO BE ON THE PLATFORMS WHERE NEW ZEALANDERS ARE. SO IT'S NOT COSTING $370 MILLION TO DO A MERGER. THIS IS NOT A MERGER. THIS IS CREATING SOMETHING NEW. THIS IS NOT RNZ AND TVNZ ON STEROIDS. THIS ENTITY HAS TO DO MORE. - BUT IT IS COSTING $300 MILLION, AND WE HAVEN'T DONE A COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS FOR THAT. - WELL, ACTUALLY THE BUSINESS CASE ` TREASURY SAID THERE WAS NO NEED TO DO A COST IMPACT STATEMENT BECAUSE THE BUSINESS CASE HAD A STRATEGIC CASE, A FINANCIAL CASE, A COMMERCIAL CASE, AND ALSO EXPLAINED THE WHY. SO TREASURY SAID IT'S ALL BEEN COVERED IN THE BUSINESS CASE. - SO DID YOU LOOK AT IT` BECAUSE A REGULATORY IMPACT STATEMENT WOULD LOOK AT THINGS LIKE THE IMPACT ON THE MARKET AND MULTIPLE MODELS. WAS THE IMPACT ON THE MARKET LOOKED AT IN THAT BUSINESS CASE? DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE IMPACT ON THE MARKET WILL BE WITH THIS MERGER? - WELL, IT'S NOT A MERGER. IT'S CREATING A NEW ENTITY. AND BECAUSE I HAVE TO KEEP SAYING THAT, BECAUSE THE COMMERCIAL SECTOR, I SUPPOSE, IS LOOKING AT THIS AS TV AND ON STEROIDS. THAT'S REALLY WHAT THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT. AND THE FACT IS THAT WE ARE CREATING A PUBLIC MEDIA ENTITY THAT IS PARTIALLY SUPPORTED BY COMMERCIAL REVENUE. IT HAS TO DO MORE FOR THE UNDERSERVED AND UNDER-ENGAGED. - AND I WANT TO GET TO THAT. - IT'S NOT TVNZ ON STEROIDS. - BUT HAVE YOU LOOKED AT WHAT IMPACT THIS WILL HAVE ON THE MEDIA INDUSTRY? - WE HAVE. THAT'S WHY WE'VE PUT IN THE COLLABORATION CLAUSE. THAT'S WHY WE'VE HAD CONVERSATIONS WITH EVERY PART OF THE SECTOR, BOTH AS WHEN WE WERE DOING THE BUSINESS CASE AND ALSO IN THIS WORK OF THE ESTABLISHMENT BOARD. I'VE BEEN AND SPOKEN TO ALL OF THE MAJOR PLAYERS OUT IN THE MEDIA SECTOR TO MAKE SURE WE KNEW WHAT THEIR CONCERNS WERE AND HOW COULD WE DEVELOP IN THE FOUR PIECES OF WORK. THE LEGISLATION'S JUST ONE PIECE OF WORK. WE'VE GOT OTHER PIECES GOING ON. - YES. SO WHAT COULD THE IMPACT BE ON THE MEDIA LANDSCAPE OF THIS NEW ENTITY? - WELL, THE PURPOSE OF THE NEW ENTITY IS ACTUALLY TO SUPPORT THE OVERALL NEW ZEALAND MEDIA ECOSYSTEM, TO SUPPORT IT, TO BE ABLE TO COUNTER WHAT IS THE INTERNATIONAL THREAT FROM THE MAJOR INTERNATIONAL CONGLOMERATES. - BUT WHAT COULD THE IMPACT BE ON THE OTHER PLAYERS HERE ` THE LOCAL PLAYERS HERE? - SO THE OTHER LOCAL PLAYERS, FOR EXAMPLE, CONVERSATIONS THAT WE'VE HAD WITH STUFF, FOR EXAMPLE, WHERE THEY HAVE LOCAL REPORTERS ` THEIR FEAR IS THAT THIS ENTITY WOULD OPEN AN OFFICE NEXT DOOR TO THEM AND WIPE THEM OUT BECAUSE THEY'RE BIGGER, WHEREAS THIS ENTITY IS REQUIRED NOT TO GO AND OPEN AN OFFICE NEXT DOOR TO THEM; IT IS REQUIRED TO GO AND TALK TO THEM AND SAY, 'WHAT IS A PARTNERSHIP THAT WE CAN DO THAT WOULD SUPPORT YOUR PEOPLE IN YOUR REGIONAL OFFICES TO DO MORE?' IT'LL BE A FINANCIAL RELATIONSHIP BECAUSE IT'S A COMMERCIAL RELATIONSHIP. BUT THEN HOW DO WE ACTUALLY PERHAPS TAKE SOME OF THE NEWS THAT YOU'RE PRODUCING IN GORE AND SPREAD IT ACROSS SOME OF OUR PLATFORMS SO THAT THE PEOPLE IN AUCKLAND KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE PEOPLE IN GORE? - BUT CAN YOU RULE OUT, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT THIS WILL NOT NEGATIVELY` THAT THIS WILL NOT NEGATIVELY IMPACT OTHER MEDIA ORGANISATIONS AND THAT NOBODY WILL GO TO THE WALL AS A RESULT OF THIS? CAN YOU RULE THAT OUT? - WELL, ALL I CAN SAY` - BECAUSE THERE COULD BE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES, COULDN'T THERE? WHICH IS WHAT A REGULATORY IMPACT STATEMENT LOOKS AT. - WELL, AND THAT'S WHY WE LOOKED AT IT AS PART OF THE BUSINESS CASE ` WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE ECOSYSTEM AND WHERE THE GREATEST THREAT WAS. THAT'S WHY THIS ENTITY NOT ONLY HAS COLLABORATION IN ITS CHARTER; IT'S GOT` WE ARE DEVELOPING THE MONITORING FRAMEWORK BY WHICH THIS ENTITY WILL BE HELD TO ACCOUNT ON ITS BEHAVIOUR. THAT'S WHY THE COMMERCE COMMISSION STILL HAS OVERSIGHT OVER THIS ENTITY ONCE IT IS FORMED. - SO CAN YOU RULE OUT THAT THIS WILL NOT NEGATIVELY IMPACT OTHER MEDIA ORGANISATIONS OR THAT NOBODY WILL GO TO THE WALL? - THAT IS NOT THE GOAL. - BUT YOU CAN'T RULE IT OUT? - SO I CAN'T PREDICT THE FUTURE, BUT THAT IS NOT THE GOAL, AND WE ARE PUTTING IN AS MUCH OF THE PROTECTIONS AS WE CAN IN THE MONITORING AND FUNDING WORK STREAM AND THE TRANSITION AND CHANGE WORK STREAM AND IN THE OTHER WORK STREAMS WE ARE DOING. - BUT THAT MUST WORRY YOU, YOU KNOW, IF THAT IS EVEN A POSSIBILITY, BECAUSE WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR IS GREATER PLURALITY OF VOICES AND A DIVERSE MEDIA SYSTEM. AND IF ONE OF THE UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES COULD BE THAT THAT REDUCES PLURALITY, THAT MUST CONCERN YOU. - IT WOULD IF THAT WAS WHAT I THOUGHT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. BUT AT THE MOMENT, RNZ AND TVNZ ARE COMPETING WITH WHAT ARE THESE COMMERCIAL ENTITIES. AND THIS IS ACTUALLY CHANGING ONE OF THEM FROM A FULLY COMMERCIAL ENTITY THAT IS FULLY COMPETING TO A PUBLIC MEDIA ENTITY THAT IS PARTIALLY FUNDED BY COMMERCIAL REVENUE. SO IT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO BE LESS COMMERCIAL. - OK. I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT WHAT IT IS ALL GOING TO LOOK LIKE. I JUST WANT TO BRING UP VERY QUICKLY HERE STUFF'S SINEAD BOUCHER. SHE IS CALLING IT A 'CHILLING PROSPECT AND A SERIOUS THREAT'. IS ANYONE LISTENING TO THAT AS WELL? - WELL, I'VE READ SINEAD'S FULL SUBMISSION. I'VE HAD AT LEAST TWO OR THREE CONVERSATIONS WITH SINEAD. I UNDERSTAND WHAT HER CONCERNS ARE. THEY ARE PREDICTING FUTURE BEHAVIOUR ON PAST BEHAVIOUR OF ONE OF THE ENTITIES. I UNDERSTAND THAT. I HAVE GIVEN AS MUCH GUARANTEE AS I CAN, AND INSIDE THE WORK STREAMS THAT WE ARE DOING, WE ARE WORKING WITH THEM TO TRY AND GIVE THEM AS MUCH TRANSPARENCY AS WE CAN AS DECISIONS ARE MADE. BUT ULTIMATELY, THEY WON'T BELIEVE ME TILL THEY SEE THE WAY THAT THIS ENTITY BEHAVES. AND I CAN'T PROVE IT TILL WE CAN DO IT. - OK. I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE WAY THIS ENTITY IS GOING TO BEHAVE NOW. WHAT WILL VIEWERS SEE THAT IS DIFFERENT` OR AUDIENCES, I SUPPOSE, ON THE RADIO OR ON TELEVISION THAT IS DIFFERENT IN THIS NEW ENTITY? - SO ON THE 1ST OF MARCH, WHICH IS THE DATE THAT TECHNICALLY THE ENTITY COMES INTO PLACE, NOTHING. SO THE RADIO NEW ZEALAND STAFF ` THEY'RE ALL LIFTING AND SHIFTING ACROSS, AND THEY WILL GO TO WORK AND DELIVER JUST THE WAY THEY HAVE. SAME FOR TVNZ STAFF, RIGHT? THE NEW ENTITY DOESN'T GAIN ANY OF ITS NEW FUNDING UNTIL THE 1ST OF JULY 2023. THERE NEEDS TO BE A NEW ENTITY BOARD THAT HAS STATUTORY POWERS TO MAKE DECISIONS. THEY'LL HAVE TO EMPLOY A CE. SO, IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, NOTHING. WHEN THE NEW` WHAT WE ARE DOING IS WE ARE WORKING ON WHAT WE HOPE TO PROVIDE THE ENTITY BOARD WHERE THERE'S THREE OR FOUR OPPORTUNITIES WHERE WE SEE YOU CAN PUT QUICK RUNS ON THE BOARD TO DELIVER ON THE CHARTER AND SHOW THE NEW ZEALAND PUBLIC WHY THEY ARE FUNDING THIS. - WHAT ARE THEY? - WELL, THAT MIGHT BE CHILDREN. IT WOULDN'T BE A SURPRISE TO ANYBODY THAT I'VE GOT A PARTICULAR FOCUS ON CHILDREN. IT'S NOT AN AREA THAT WE COMPETE WITH MANY IN THE COMMERCIAL SECTOR, BUT IT IS AN AREA WHERE NEW ZEALAND CHILDREN ARE GETTING LESS AND LESS OF THEIR OWN VOICE AND THEIR OWN STORIES UP ON THE SCREEN. ANOTHER AREA MIGHT BE` AND THE ENTITY DOESN'T HAVE TO DO ALL THIS ITSELF. SO THE ENTITY CAN PARTNER, LET'S SAY WITH PASIFIKA RADIO TRUST, WHO ARE ALREADY DELIVERING WONDERFULLY IN 14 PACIFIC LANGUAGES ` HOW CAN WE PARTNER WITH THEM AND SAY, 'WHAT RESOURCING MIGHT YOU NEED FROM US FOR YOU TO BE ABLE TO DO WHAT YOU DO MORE?' AND WE CAN USE THAT. THEY CAN USE THAT RELATIONSHIP TO SAY, 'WE'VE DELIVERED ON THAT CHARTER OUTCOME THROUGH OUR PARTNERSHIP HERE.' - RIGHT. SO MORE PERHAPS PASIFIKA PROGRAMS, MORE CHILDREN'S PROGRAMS. - AND THEN I WOULD SAY THERE'S GOT TO BE A GREATER RELATIONSHIP WITH WHAKARURUHAU ` IWI RADIO, FOR EXAMPLE. HOW CAN WE SUPPORT THEM TO DO MORE? IT'S ALL ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS. EVERY SECTOR LEAD THAT I WENT AND SAW USED THE TERM 'PARTNERSHIP', USED THE TERM 'RELATIONSHIP'. - BUT YOU DON'T NEED AN ENTITY TO DO THAT, DO YOU? BECAUSE YOU COULD EASILY ACHIEVE THAT IN THE CURRENT SYSTEM VIA NEW ZEALAND ON AIR. - NO, YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY. - WHY NOT? - WELL, FIRST OF ALL, NEW ZEALAND ON AIR DOESN'T HAVE A PLATFORM SPECIFIC, AND WE ARE TALKING TO THE ABC AND BBC AND CANADIANS AND THE FRENCH AND SO ON` - WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT ` PLATFORM SPECIFIC? - WELL, THEY HAVE A CONTENT MANDATE. THEY DON'T HAVE A REQUIREMENT THAT THE NEW ZEALAND CONTENT HAS TO BE SHOWN ON A NEW ZEALAND PLATFORM. - ALL RIGHT? SO THEY CAN` - BUT YOU COULD DO THAT. YOU COULD EASILY DO THAT WITH NEW ZEALAND ON AIR. YOU COULD SAY, 'THIS NEEDS TO BE SHOWN ON A NEW ZEALAND PLATFORM.' - WE ABSOLUTELY COULD. AND THAT IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE WERE HOPING THAT WE WOULD HAVE THIS CONVERSATION IN THE SORT OF A TRIANGULAR CONVERSATION WITH TE MANGAI PAHO, NEW ZEALAND ON AIR AND THE ESTABLISHMENT BOARD AROUND THE RELATIONSHIP BY WHICH ALL OF THOSE THREE ENTITIES CAN GET VISIBILITY OVER THE COMMISSIONING, BECAUSE THIS ENTITY WILL DIRECT COMMISSION IN SOME WAYS, VISIBILITY OVER THE COMMISSIONING, WHERE SHOULD WE PARTNER SO THAT IF WE NEED ANOTHER DRAMA AND WE'VE ALL GOT A BIT OF MONEY IN A DIFFERENT POT, HOW DO WE PUT THAT TOGETHER SO THAT NEW ZEALANDERS CAN SEE NEW ZEALAND DRAMA? - I SUPPOSE WHAT I'M SAYING THOUGH IS THAT YOU COULD HAVE ACHIEVE THESE OUTCOMES VIA NEW ZEALAND ON AIR AND THEN OPEN IT UP TO THE WHOLE MEDIA SECTOR AS IT IS. YOU COULD EASILY SAY, 'I WANT MORE CHILDREN'S PROGRAMMES. I WANT THEM ON THAT PLATFORM. I'M GOING TO RING-FENCE THAT FUNDING.' AND THE PRODUCERS WOULD CHASE THAT MONEY. - BUT THAT'S ONLY ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS. YOU WOULD STILL HAVE RNZ TVNZ NEEDING MASSIVE INVESTMENT TO ACTUALLY LIFT THEMSELVES INTO THESE OTHER PLATFORMS. WHY WOULD THE NEW ZEALAND TAXPAYER PAY TWICE FOR EXACTLY THE SAME THINGS, WHEREAS BY CREATING THE NEW ENTITY, BRINGING THOSE ENTITIES AND THE BEST OF THEM UNDERNEATH, YOU CREATE` YOU DO THAT SPEND ONCE. - I WANT TO ASK YOU TOO, ABOUT PUBLIC INTEREST PROGRAMMING. WOULD FBOY BE PUBLIC INTEREST PROGRAMMING? - WELL... - IT'S CAPTURED THE IMAGINATION OF A NATION. - YES, IT HAS. IT CERTAINLY HAS. THAT'S NOT FOR ME TO SAY. THAT IS FOR THE ENTITY TO SET A STRATEGIC DIRECTION FOR THE CE TO THEN TAKE THAT STRATEGIC DIRECTION AND FOR THOSE WHO ARE INSIDE THE ENTITY TO DECIDE WHETHER THEY BELIEVE THAT MEETS ITS CHARTER OBLIGATIONS. THEY HAVE TO MEASURE IT AGAINST ITS CHARTER OBLIGATIONS. DOES IT DELIVER ON THAT? AND IS IT THE BEST THING TO DELIVER WITH? - BUT IT COULD BE, THEN. CELEBRITY TREASURE ISLAND. - CELEBRITY TREASURE ISLAND ` THOSE ARE NEW ZEALANDERS, AND THEY ARE NEW ZEALANDERS THAT OTHER NEW ZEALANDERS WISH TO SEE. - SO ARE THE FBOYS, I SUPPOSE. WHAT ABOUT SPORTS? COULD THE ANZPM GO AND SPEND THEIR MONEY ON THE OLYMPICS OR THE ALL BLACKS? - COULD THEY CHASE THOSE? - IN THIS, AGAIN` - WOULD THAT BE PUBLIC INTEREST? - WELL, IT IS. I WOULD SAY THAT NEW ZEALANDERS PARTICULARLY HAVE A REAL INTEREST IN SPORT. THEY ARE THEIR HEROES. THERE IS A LOT TO BE SAID FOR YOUNGER WOMEN SEEING THE SILVER FERNS AND SO ON. SO THERE'S A LOT TO BE SAID FOR THAT, BUT IT'S MORE LIKELY BECAUSE OF THE PRICE OF CONTENT AND THE PRICE OF THESE THINGS THAT RELATIONSHIPS WILL BE FORMED WITH OTHERS BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT CONTENT PRICES ARE RISING. - I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE EDITORIAL INDEPENDENCE AS WELL. THIS HAS COME UP FROM SIMON POWER AT THE SELECT COMMITTEE. HE SAID` SIMON POWER SAYS THERE'S A RISK OF A RETURN TO A MULDOON ERA BECAUSE THIS WILL BE ANSWERABLE DIRECTLY TO A MINISTER. SO WHY IS THAT? - WELL, I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM. SO THAT'S THE FIRST THING. SO THE BUSINESS CASE GROUP, WHICH I WAS THE CHAIR OF, SPENT A LOT OF TIME LOOKING AT THE ENTITY SHAPE. SO YOU'VE GOT AN ICE, AND ACE, OR A CROWN COMPANY. NOW TVNZ WISHES TO REMAIN A CROWN COMPANY. I UNDERSTAND IT. THEY LIKE WHAT THEY'VE GOT. THEY DON'T WANT TO SHIFT FROM THAT MODEL. THEY BELIEVE, AND THEY'VE ARGUED FOR THAT. THE BUSINESS CASE BELIEVED THAT AN AUTONOMOUS CROWN ENTITY FOR A NEW ENTITY` NOT TVNZ AND RNZ SMASHED TOGETHER` FOR A NEW ENTITY, WAS THE BEST WAY TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYBODY UNDERSTOOD THIS IS A PUBLIC MEDIA ENTITY PARTIALLY SUPPORTED BY COMMERCIAL REVENUE. ITS GOALS MUST BE THE DELIVERY OF PUBLIC MEDIA IN THE FIRST INSTANCE, NOT COMMERCIAL REVENUE. WHILE YOU STILL NEED SOME, THAT IS NOT ITS MAJOR GOAL. WITH REGARD TO EDITORIAL INDEPENDENCE, THERE HAVE BEEN` I HAVE READ ALL OF THE 920 SUBMISSIONS THAT WENT TO THE SELECT COMMITTEE. THERE ARE SOME GOOD IDEAS IN THERE. THERE ARE SOME GOOD IDEAS IN THERE. AND I DON'T BELIEVE WE NEED TO CHANGE THE ENTITY SHAPE. BUT I THINK THERE ARE WAYS THAT WE CAN STRENGTHEN THE EDITORIAL INDEPENDENCE IN THE LEDGE. I DON'T HAVE CONTROL OVER THAT, BUT I THINK SOME GOOD IDEAS IN THERE. - BUT YOU THINK THERE'S VALUE IN THAT? - I THINK THAT, CERTAINLY` - NOT BEING ANSWERABLE TO A MINISTER BECAUSE THAT TRUST IS CRUCIAL, ISN'T IT, IN A MEDIA ORGANISATION? - AND NOT BEING ANSWERABLE TO A MINISTER ` I DON'T BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT THE LEGISLATION SAYS NOW. WHAT IT SAYS` THE BIT THAT EVERYBODY'S FOCUSSED ON IS THEY'RE FOCUSED ON THAT THE MINISTER CAN ASK THE BOARD TO HAVE REGARD FOR GOVERNMENT POLICY, AND HAVING BEEN ON A NUMBER OF BOARDS, THE BOARD CAN GET THE LETTER` WHICH IS OIA-ABLE. SO IT'S ALL TRANSPARENT FROM THE MINISTER. THEY CAN CONSIDER IT. THEY CAN WRITE BACK TO THE MINISTER AND SAY, 'THANK YOU, WE GAVE REGARD TO IT, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT.' - 'WE'VE DISREGARDED IT.' - ALL OF THAT IS OIA-ABLE. - TRACEY MARTIN, THERE'S SO MUCH MORE I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT, BUT WE JUST DON'T HAVE THE TIME. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US HERE ON THE NATION. - THANK YOU. - E WHAI AKE NEI ` WE DISSECT THE WEEK'S POLITICAL NEWS WITH OUR PANEL ` DITA DE BONI, MARK JENNINGS AND BRIGITTE MORTEN. PLUS ` ANNOUNCEMENTS AND TENSIONS IN IMMIGRATION. MICHAEL WOOD JOINS US LIVE IN THE STUDIO. - HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL, NBR SENIOR JOURNALIST DITA DE BONI, DIRECTOR AT FRANKS OGILVIE LAW BRIGITTE MORTEN AND CO-EDITOR OF NEWSROOM MARK JENNINGS. WELCOME TO YOU ALL. I WANT TO START WITH YOU MARK, DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW WHY? - NO. NO, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY. I THINK TRACY TALKED UP A BIG GAME, TALKED ABOUT CHILDREN'S PROGRAMMING AND INVESTMENT AND INFRASTRUCTURE, BUT SHE STILL HASN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTION WHY. SHE TALKED ABOUT THAT THERE WAS CONCERN IN THE INDUSTRY ABOUT A SLUMP, AND THAT IS TRUE, BUT IF THIS IS THE ANSWER TO THAT, YOU KNOW, SHE SHOULD HAVE COME TO THE MEETING, BECAUSE THIS IS NOT THE ANSWER. - THIS LOOKS LIKE A GOVERNMENT INTERVENTION. IT IS, ISN'T IT? - IT ABSOLUTELY IS. IT IS NOT ACTUALLY FOR TRACEY TO TELL US WHY. IT IS FOR THE GOVERNMENT, WHO HAS DECIDED THIS IS GOVERNMENT POLICY, TO TELL US WHY. WE HAVE SEEN FROM THE MINISTER OF BROADCASTING WILLIE JACKSON, THE ONLY REASON WHY HE CAN GIVE US IS BECAUSE HE WANTS TO HAVE SOME INTERFERENCE IN WHAT TVNZ IS DOING, WHICH IS HIGHLY CONCERNING. - DOES IT SEEM IDEOLOGICAL TO YOU? - I THINK WHAT HAS HAPPENED BEHIND THE SCENES PERHAPS IS THAT TVNZ HAS SIGNALLED IT WON'T BE ABLE TO GIVE A DIVIDEND IN THE YEARS TO COME AND THE GOVERNMENT HAS TAKEN THIS PATH BASED ON BBC, ABC AND OTHER COMPARATIVE COUNTRIES. I THINK IN THEORY IT IS A GOOD IDEA, BUT AS SOMEBODY WHO HAS WORKED IN BOTH ORGANISATIONS, RNZ AND TVNZ, THE DNA OF THOSE ORGANISATIONS ARE SO DISPARATE THAT IT'S HARD TO UNDERSTAND HOW THAT IS GOING TO WORK. IF WHAT THEY ARE SAYING THAT THEY WANT PUBLIC SERVICE BROADCASTING TO LEAD, I JUST DON'T KNOW` THE DNA FOR THAT IS JUST NOT EXISTENT IN TVNZ, EVEN THOUGH THEY DO SOME PUBLIC INTEREST BROADCASTING, BUT IT IS NOT QUITE THE SAME THING. - IT IS A COMMERCIAL BEAST OVER THERE. CAN YOU COMPETE AND COLLABORATE AT THE SAME TIME? - TVNZ IS A COMMERCIAL BEAST. IF YOU LOOK SEVEN TO EIGHT YEARS AGO, KEVIN KENRICK, WHO WAS CEO, ACTUALLY STARTED A VERY VISIONARY TRACK FOR TVNZ, HE INVESTED HEAVILY IN THE ON DEMAND PLATFORM MOVED THE ORGANISATION TOWARDS DIGITAL. HE ACTUALLY IS WAY AHEAD OF THIS GOVERNMENT. HE IS ALREADY DOING IT. IF THEY ARE WORRIED ABOUT RNZ, GIVE IT A BIT MORE MONEY. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPEND HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS ON THIS. TVNZ IS ALREADY GOING DOWN THIS TRACK. - HE MOVED FAR AHEAD, BUT I THINK HE LOST ANY KIND OF IDEA OF PUBLIC SERVICE BROADCASTING, WHICH WAS CONTAINED WITHIN TVNZ UNDER THE CHARTER. - SO YOU CAN BRING BACK A CHARTER` - BUT THE CHARTER DIDN'T WORK. - BUT THERE IS THE NUB OF THE PROBLEM, ISN'T IT? - THE IMPACT ON THE INDUSTRY, IT SEEMS INCREDIBLE WE ARE GOING UNDER THIS PATH BUT THERE HASN'T BEEN A ROBUST ANALYSIS OF WHAT THE CONSEQUENCES MAY BE ON THE MARKET. - ABSOLUTELY. I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF THE STARKEST THINGS THAT CAME OUT OF THE INTERVIEW ` THERE HAVEN'T BEEN THOSE ANALYSES OF WHAT THIS IS GOING TO DO TO THE REST OF THE MARKET. YOU SAW THE STUFF CEO HAS SAID THAT THOSE THINGS THAT THEY SAY THEY ARE PUTTING IN AND COLLABORATION, THE LEGISLATION DOESN'T ALLOW FOR IT; IT SETS IT UP THAT THAT COULD POSSIBLY COME AS A BREACH OF THE COMMERCE COMMISSION` COMMERCE ACT, I SHOULD SAY, SO THAT WILL CAUSE THEM A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER PROBLEMS. THEY DO NOT HAVE THE SAFETY IN THERE THAT TRACEY MARTIN WAS SAYING. - THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, DO THEY, WHEN THE NEW ENTITY ENTERS THE MARKET. - NO. BY THE WAY, IT IS A MERGER. THE SAME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE PUT TOGETHER. THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE A LOT OF NEW PEOPLE UNLESS THEY ARE GETTING RID OF A WHOLE LOT OF PEOPLE. YOU KNOW, I THINK... I THINK THAT THE OTHER THING THAT CAME` THE THING THAT CAME OUT WHEN YOU SAY, THERE WAS NO COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS, TRACEY TRIED TO SAY, 'OH, WE DIDN'T NEED TO DO THAT BECAUSE THAT WAS IN THE BUSINESS PLAN.' THAT IS NOT TRUE. IT IS NOT IN THE BUSINESS PLAN. IF TREASURY THINK THAT THEY NEED TO POINT IT OUT VERY CLEARLY TO THE MEDIA WHERE IT POINTS OUT THE COST. THIS COULD COLLAPSE SOME OF THE MEDIA INDUSTRY. WE NEED A PROPER COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS. HOW HARD IS IT TO DO? THEY HAVE HAD EVERY BIG FIRM IN HERE. WHY CAN'T ONE OF THEM DO IT? - THEY MIGHT NOT LIKE WHAT THEY FIND IN THOSE NUMBERS. DO YOU THINK IT IS MADE DECISION ON THIS AND IS FORGING AHEAD REGARDLESS OF THE COST OF THE BENEFIT? - TREASURY LOOKED OVER IT, BUT I DISAGREE THAT OTHER MEDIA NEED TO BE CONSULTED, SO PERHAPS I TAKE A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT VIEW. - THAT IS WHAT WE'RE HERE FOR. - IN BRITAIN, BBC HAS NOT STOPPED RUPERT MURDOCH BECOMING ONE OF THE WORLD'S RICHEST MEN. MEDIA IS VERY WELL SUPPORTED IN NEW ZEALAND BY THE GOVERNMENT THROUGH VARIOUS MEANS THROUGH PUBLIC MONEY. WHY CAN'T NEW ZEALAND TAXPAYER HAVE ITS OWN ENTITY THAT IS NOT` ONLY CONCERNED WITH PUBLIC BROADCASTING. I DON'T SEE WHY THE PRIVATE SECTOR ARE CRYING SO MUCH ABOUT IT. THEY ALREADY GET A LOT OF HELP. - BUT YOU NEED TO THIS HUGE MERGER TO CREATE THAT? WE HAVE RNZ, WHICH IS AN EXCELLENT PUBLIC SERVICE BROADCASTER. IF YOU WANT A FEW MORE PROGRAMS WITHOUT ADVERTS ON TVNZ, YOU CAN ACHIEVE THAT. WHY SPEND ALL THIS MONEY WHEN WE NEED HOSPITALS AND ALL SORTS OF SPENDING IN OTHER AREAS? - BECAUSE YOU NEED TO SHORE UP SUCH AN ENTITY. STUDIES HAVE SHOWN IN COUNTRIES WITH A REALLY STRONG PUBLIC BROADCASTING WHICH COVERS DIGITAL BROADCASTING AND RADIO AS THEY DO AND OTHER COUNTRIES, DISINFORMATION AND THINGS LIKE THAT DON'T GAIN SUCH A FOOTHOLD. THAT IS IMPORTANT. - IT IS NOT JUST THE PRESERVE OF PUBLIC MEDIA COMPANIES, ISN'T IT? - IF YOU LOOK AT THE AUCKLAND MAYORALTY COVERAGE, WHAT PUBLIC SERVICE BROADCASTING WOULD DO IS PUT A PROFESSOR WHO HAS WRITTEN THREE BOOKS ABOUT IT WITH HIS PIPE AND HIS PATCHED JACKET TALKING TO YOU FOR AN HOUR ABOUT WHAT EKE PANUKU DOES. THAT IS NOT WHAT TV DOES AT THE MOMENT. THEY DO INTERESTING STORIES. THAT IS PUBLIC SERVICE BROADCASTING. - THE DIVERSITY PLATFORM ACTUALLY MEANS THAT` A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO AN HOUR OF THE PATCH PROFESSOR. WHAT THEY WANT IS SOMETHING DELIVERED ON DIFFERENT PLATFORMS, HAVING A DIVERSITY OF MEDIA MEANS THAT GETS UP TO A WIDE RANGE OF PEOPLE. WE HAVE SEEN HUGE NUMBERS OF PEOPLE UNDER 30 NEVER TURN ON AN ACTUAL TV ANYMORE OR EVEN HAVE A TV. EVERYTHING IS STREAMING. YOU HAVE TO BE CAREFUL THAT WHILST PUBLIC JOURNALISM MAY HAVE LOOKED LIKE THE PATCH PROFESSOR, YOU NEED A DIVERSITY OF PLATFORMS TO GET TO A DIVERSITY OF PEOPLE. - YOU NEED THE RNZ CONTENT GOING OUT ON ALL SORTS OF PLATFORMS. THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO ACHIEVE, WHETHER THEY WILL NOT. - I WANT TO TOUCH BRIEFLY ON ONE OTHER POINT AT THE END. THIS IDEA OF EDITORIAL INDEPENDENCE IS CRUCIAL, ISN'T IT? AND DISTANCE FROM THE MINISTER. WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN SOME PUBLIC SPARRING WITH TVNZ AT THE SELECT COMMITTEE, SAYING IT IS TO CHANGE ITS CULTURE. IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT, ISN'T IT? - ABSOLUTELY. IT IS REALLY INTERESTING THAT PAUL THOMPSON, WHO HAS BEEN PRETTY SUPPORTIVE OF THIS MERGER AND HAS PLAYED IT CAREFULLY AND KEPT HIS HEAD DOWN, THE BIG POINT HE MADE AT THE SELECT COMMITTEE WAS WE NEED SAFEGUARDS AROUND EDITORIAL INDEPENDENCE. I THINK THAT WILL BE HAS BIG PUSH, AND I THINK HE IS DEAD RIGHT. - DO YOU THINK THAT THAT WILL HELP REIN THE MINISTER IN? - ABSOLUTELY. TRACEY MARTIN MADE THE POINT THE CROWN ENTITY ACT HAS LIMITED POWER BUT IT STILL HAS THAT POWER. IF IT HAS NO POWER, WHY DID THEY SET IT UP IN THIS WAY? THEY COULD EASILY GET RID OF IT IF IT'S NOT THAT IMPORTANT. - DO YOU THINK IT IS GOING TO BE A SUCCESS? WHAT IS IN YOUR CRYSTAL BALL? - I THINK THAT THE DNA THAT IS BAKED INTO THIS ORGANISATION IS GOING TO BE SO DISPARATE UNLESS RNZ'S DRIVERS ARE THE MAIN DRIVERS, IT WILL NOT ACHIEVE WHAT THEIR HIGH-MINDED ASPIRATIONS ARE. - ANY CONCERNS OVER ITS FUTURE, CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT? - I THINK YOU HAVE A MASSIVE ISSUE THAT THIS IS GOING TO BE ESTABLISHED BEFORE WE GET TO AN ELECTION AND QUITE BEDDED IN. FOR ANY FUTURE GOVERNMENT TO UNWIND SOME OF THIS IS GOING TO BE VERY EXPENSIVE AND PROBABLY NOT WORTH THE MONEY. - IF THEY GET TO THAT SITUATION AND THEY CAN STARVE IT OF FUNDS AS WELL, THERE ARE TWO WAYS TO GET RID OF OUTFITS, AND THAT IS SCRAP THEM OR STARVE THEM. - WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. DITA DE BONI, BRIGITTE MORTEN AND MARK JENNINGS ON THE PANEL THIS MORNING. UP NEXT ` WHO'S IN AND WHO'S OUT? IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOOD JOINS US LIVE. THEN TO BEIJING, WHERE CHINA'S RULING COMMUNIST PARTY IS ABOUT TO LAUNCH ITS FIVE-YEARLY CONGRESS. WHAT WILL IT TELL US ABOUT THE SUPERPOWER'S NEXT MOVES? - WAIHAPE MAI ` WELCOME BACK. THE NEXT STAGE OF THE IMMIGRATION RESET IS HERE. BUT WHY SO LATE? THE SKILLED MIGRANT CATEGORY ` CLOSED FOR TWO YEARS ` HAS FINALLY BEEN RE-OPENED, PUTTING US MONTHS BEHIND AUSTRALIA IN THE BATTLE FOR TALENT. SO IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOOD JOINS ME NOW. TENA KOE. YEAH, LOOK` INTERNATIONAL FIGHT FOR TALENT THAT'S BEEN GOING WHILE WE HAVE SORT OF BEEN SITTING ON OUR HANDS. WHY HAS IT TAKEN SO LONG TO REOPEN THIS CATEGORY? - KIA ORA, SIMON, AND GOOD MORNING. THIS CATEGORY IS NOW REOPEN, AND WE'RE MOVING FORWARD RELATIVELY QUICKLY WITH IT, BUT IT'S NOT RIGHT TO SAY THAT WE'VE BEEN SITTING ON OUR HANDS. SO WHEN IT COMES TO RESIDENCY, FOR EXAMPLE, WE'VE NOW GRANTED 110,000 PEOPLE RESIDENCY THROUGH THE RESIDENCE VISA '21 PROGRAMME. - YEAH. - THAT'S ABOUT THREE TIMES AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU WOULD USUALLY GRANT PER YEAR UNDER THE SKILLED MIGRANT CATEGORY. - ARE THEY` BUT ARE THEY THE SKILLED MIGRANTS THAT WE NEED? THEY'RE THE PEOPLE THAT WERE HERE AND WANTED TO GET RESIDENCY WHEN THEY WERE ALREADY HERE, BEFORE THE PANDEMIC HIT. THIS IS SKILLED MIGRANTS THAT WE NEED FOR THE WORKFORCE SHORTAGES. - WELL, THAT'S RIGHT. WELL` THEY BOTH ARE. IN BOTH CASES, IT'S GENERALLY THE CASE THAT PEOPLE COME TO NEW ZEALAND, GET INTO WORK AND THEN PURSUE A RESIDENCY PATHWAY. AND I'LL JUST BE REALLY CLEAR. 110,000 PEOPLE THROUGH THAT CATEGORY GIVEN RESIDENCY ` FAR AND ABOVE WHAT WE WERE PROVIDING PRE-COVID. THAT'S BEEN A REALLY SIGNIFICANT RESPONSE TO RETAIN PEOPLE HERE IN NEW ZEALAND. - YEAH, BUT TO ATTRACT THE OTHER PEOPLE THAT WE DO NEED` I MEAN, AUSTRALIA REOPENED THEIR SKILLED MIGRANT CATEGORY AT THE END OF LAST YEAR. - YEAH. - SO WE'RE WAY BEHIND THEM, AND THEY ARE OUR BIGGEST COMPETITOR. - WELL, AS I'VE JUST EXPLAINED, WE'RE NOT BEHIND, BECAUSE WE HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN GRANTING MORE RESIDENTS VISAS THAN WE'VE EVER GRANTED BEFORE. - BUT ARE THEY THE SKILLED MIGRANTS THAT WE NEED? - YES. YES. THESE ARE PEOPLE ACROSS A WHOLE RANGE OF ROLES WHERE WE DO HAVE REAL SKILLS NEEDS. IT IS TEACHERS; IT IS NURSES; IT IS ENGINEERS ` IT IS PEOPLE IN THOSE SORTS OF ROLES. AND AT THE SAME TIME, OF COURSE, SINCE JULY, WE'VE OPENED UP THE ACCREDITED EMPLOYER WORK VISA, WHICH HAS ENABLED EMPLOYERS TO BE ABLE TO ACCESS PEOPLE ON A MORE TEMPORARY BASIS AS WELL. - OK. - THERE HAS BEEN A LOT GOING ON. WE'VE INCREASED THE RSE SCHEME; WE'VE INCREASED THE WORKING HOLIDAY VISA SCHEME IN THAT TIME AS WELL. THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF THINGS HAPPENING IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS. - OK, SO NOW YOU'VE REOPENED THIS PARTICULAR CATEGORY. BUT IN THE SHORT TERM, YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE IT HARDER FOR MIGRANTS TO COME IN ` YOU'RE RAISING THE POINTS FROM 160 TO 180. AT THE SAME TIME, AUSTRALIA HAS DECREASED THE POINTS THAT THEY NEED. WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT? - WELL, THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING WITH THE SKILLED MIGRANT CATEGORY THAT WE'VE REOPENED. ONE IS THAT WE ARE SHIFTING IT TO REALLY FOCUS IN ON THE SKILLS THAT WE NEED IN NEW ZEALAND. OUR IMMIGRATION REBALANCE IS ABOUT FOCUSING ON THE SKILLS WE NEED TO GROW AS A COUNTRY, AND IT IS ABOUT EXPLICITLY SHIFTING AWAY FROM A PREVIOUS MODEL, WHERE THERE WAS A LOT OF LOW-SKILL, LOW COST-LABOUR. WE DO NOT THINK THAT IS THE WAY FORWARD. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WHAT WE'RE DOING ` WE HAVE RAISED THE` WE WILL BE RAISING THE` - YOU'RE RAISING THE BAR, YEAH. - BUT THEN WHAT WE'VE ALSO DONE HAS BEEN THAT WE'VE REMOVED THE PLANNING RANGE. SO PREVIOUSLY, WE HAD A SLIGHTLY LOWER BAR, BUT ACTUALLY, ONLY 40% OF PEOPLE WERE ALLOWED TO GO THROUGH THE GATEWAY. WHAT WE'RE NOW SAYING IS WE REMOVE THAT CAP COMPLETELY ` AUSTRALIA STILL HAS A CAP, BY THE WAY; CANADA STILL HAS A CAP, BY THE WAY` - THEIR CAP IS 195,000. - WE WON'T` BUT WE WON'T HAVE A CAP. WE'LL SAY, 'HERE ARE THE SKILLS REQUIREMENTS. 'IF YOU MEET THOSE SKILLS REQUIREMENTS, WE WILL PROCESS YOUR APPLICATION.' - ARE YOU SURE YOU DON'T HAVE A CAP IN MIND? I MEAN, BECAUSE IF, SAY, YOU APPROVE ANOTHER 100,000, OR 100,000 EACH YEAR OF SKILLED MIGRANTS, IS THAT OK? - WELL, NO` THE WHOLE POINT OF THE SYSTEM IS TO GET THE MEASUREMENT IN PLACE FOR THE SKILLS THAT WE NEED IN NEW ZEALAND. IF PEOPLE MEET THAT MEASUREMENT, THEN WE WILL PROCESS THEIR VISA APPLICATIONS. THAT IS A VERY DELIBERATE SHIFT WE HAVE TAKEN TO MAKE SURE THAT WE ARE MEETING THE SKILLS GAPS. - SO IF THEY MEET ALL THE CRITERIA, YOU CAN'T SAY NO? - WELL, THAT'S RIGHT. YEAH. WE'VE PREVIOUSLY` - SO` - PREVIOUSLY, IT WAS ARTIFICIALLY CONSTRAINED BY A PLANNING RANGE. WE'RE NOW SAYING, 'IF YOU'VE GOT THE SKILLS THAT WE NEED, WE WILL PROCESS YOUR APPLICATION.' THAT'S AN IMPORTANT SHIFT. - THE SYSTEM IS ALREADY BACKLOGGED. HOW ARE YOU GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS? - YEAH, WELL, WE'RE PUTTING SIGNIFICANT RESOURCE INTO THE SYSTEM, AND IN FACT, WHEN IT COMES TO WORK VISA APPLICATIONS ACROSS THE SYSTEM, WE'RE GENERALLY NOW OPERATING WITHIN THE TIMEFRAMES THAT WE SET AT THE BEGINNING, SO THERE'S GOOD PROGRESS THAT'S BEEN MADE THERE. - OK. - THERE'S 100 NEW PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN BROUGHT IN TO PROCESS VISAS IN THE COMING MONTHS AS WELL. SO WE ARE REALLY FOCUSING ON GETTING THE PROCESSING TO WHERE IT NEEDS TO BE. - IT SEEMS LIKE A COMPLETE REVERSAL OF THE 2017 LABOUR POLICY WHERE YOU WANTED TO REDUCE IMMIGRATION BY 20,000 TO 30,000 BECAUSE OF FEARS OF THE PRESSURE ON INFRASTRUCTURE AND HOUSING AND JOBS AND SCHOOLS. ARE YOU HAPPY WITH THAT? ARE YOU NOT WORRIED ABOUT THAT PRESSURE ANYMORE? - THE IMMIGRATION REBALANCE THAT WE'RE MOVING FORWARD WITH IS ABOUT DOING A FEW THINGS, AND IT'S REALLY CONSISTENT WITH WHAT WE'VE SAID OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS. FIRSTLY, IT'S ABOUT REALLY FOCUSING THE SYSTEM, HARDEN ON THE SKILLS THAT NEW ZEALAND NEEDS. AND SO WHERE THAT'S THE CASE, WE'LL HAVE SUPPORTIVE SETTINGS. SO FOR EXAMPLE, WITH THAT SKILLED MIGRANT CATEGORY... - YES. - ...THERE'LL NOW JUST BE, KIND OF, ONE APPLICATION STAGE INSTEAD OF A COMPLICATED TWO-STEP STAGE. AT THE SAME TIME, WE ARE SAYING IN THE IMMIGRATION REBALANCE, WE WANT TO SHIFT AWAY FROM THAT OVERRELIANCE ON LOW-SKILLED AND LOW-WAGE LABOUR THAT WAS BAD FOR OUR ECONOMY AND BAD FOR MIGRANTS, OFTEN, AND OPENED UP EXPLOITATION AVENUES. SO FOR EXAMPLE, WITH THE ACCREDITED EMPLOYER WORK VISA, WE HAVE NOW SAID, 'WELL, THERE HAS TO BE A MEDIAN WAGE REQUIREMENT IN THE WELL.' AND THAT'S` - WELL, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT. SO THIS IS THE OVERHAUL THAT YOU'RE GOING TO` YOU'RE PROPOSING, YOU'RE RUNNING OUT FOR CONSULTATION AT THE MOMENT ON THE SKILLED MIGRANT CATEGORY NEXT YEAR, BUT IT SEEMS IT'S GOING TO FAVOUR WHITE-COLLAR WORKERS AND ACADEMIC QUALIFICATIONS. YOU HAVE A PHD, YOU GET SIX POINTS; YOU GET AUTOMATIC RESIDENCY. YOU'RE A TRUCK DRIVER, YOU'VE GOT 10 YEARS OF OVERSEAS EXPERIENCE; YOU CAN'T GET IN. WHY ARE YOU GOING DOWN THAT PATH? - OK. WELL, THE SKILLED MIGRANT CATEGORY IS ONE PART OF THE RESIDENCY PATHWAY MIX. SO WE'VE GOT THAT THERE. - SO A TRUCK DRIVER WHO HAS 10 YEARS' EXPERIENCE OVERSEAS MAY BE ABLE TO GET A JOB HERE FOR` TEMPORARILY, BUT THERE'S NO PATHWAY TO RESIDENCY, IS THERE? - YUP, OK, BUT OVER THE CURRENT 18-MONTH PERIOD THAT WE'RE IN THROUGH THE ACCREDITED` UH, SORRY, THROUGH THE RESIDENCE VISA '21 PROGRAMME, WE'LL BE ENABLING ABOUT 210,000 PEOPLE LIKE THAT TO GAIN RESIDENCY THROUGH THE GREEN LIST PROGRAMME. WE THEN ARE ABLE TO TARGET PARTICULAR PROFESSIONS OR ROLES WHERE WE'RE REALLY FEELING THOSE PRESSURES AND BE ABLE TO SUPPORT PEOPLE INTO RESIDENCY PATHWAYS. - WELL, LET'S SEE` - AND ACTUALLY, THOSE` THE GREEN LIST AND RESIDENCE VISA '21 WILL ACTUALLY TAKE UP THE MAJORITY OF THE SLACK IN TERMS OF RESIDENCY. - OK. LET'S` THE TRUCKING INDUSTRY IS REALLY ON YOUR CASE ON THIS. THEY SAY THERE'S 9000 DRIVERS SHORT, INCLUDING 400 WASTE TRUCK DRIVERS. ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU'VE ALREADY GOT ALL THOSE PEOPLE THROUGH THE RESIDENCE VISA ACCREDITATION TO PICK UP OUR RUBBISH? BECAUSE THEY'RE SAYING THEY DON'T HAVE THOSE PEOPLE. - YEAH, I'M SAYING A COUPLE OF THINGS HERE. THE FIRST IS THAT THERE ARE VERY CLEAR AND RELATIVELY SIMPLE PATHWAYS FOR SECTORS LIKE THAT ` ONE'S RECRUIT PEOPLE FROM OFFSHORE. - BUT YOU'RE NOT OFFERING` - IF I COULD JUST FINISH. SO, THE ACCREDITED EMPLOYER WORK VISA IS A RELATIVELY SIMPLE BAR. MAKE SURE YOU'RE ACCREDITED ` THAT IS, YOU HAVEN'T BEEN CAUGHT OUT RIPPING OFF YOUR WORKERS; ADVERTISE FOR TWO WEEKS IN NEW ZEALAND TO CHECK THERE ARE NO WORKERS, AND PAY THE MEDIAN WAGE. YOU CAN PRETTY MUCH GO AND RECRUIT OVERSEAS. NOW, ONE OF THE CHALLENGES THERE FOR THIS SECTOR AND OTHERS ` AND WE JUST HAVE TO BE AWARE OF THIS REALITY ` THESE SHORTAGES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, THEY'RE REAL IN NEW ZEALAND. - YES. - I ACCEPT THAT. THEY'RE REAL IN EVERY OTHER COUNTRY. YOU CAN OPEN UP THE NEWSPAPER IN AUSTRALIA AND THE UK AND YOU READ THE SAME STORIES. SO... - YEAH. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE RECRUITING HERE. - ...IT'S A CHALLENGING GLOBAL LABOUR MARKET. - WE KNOW THAT. - AND THESE SETTINGS ENABLE EMPLOYERS TO RECRUIT OFFSHORE` - WELL, THAT` YES` - BUT IT IS IN A LABOUR MARKET INTERNATIONALLY THAT IS CONSTRAINED. - NO, WE` YEAH` - AND NO ONE CAN CHANGE THAT REALITY. - BUT IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO` I MEAN, LIKE IF YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT TRADIES AND TRUCK DRIVERS, I MEAN, THEY'RE NOT CONSIDERED AS PART OF THE SKILLED MIGRANT PATHWAY TO RESIDENCY, ARE THEY? - WELL, NO, BUT IN MANY OF THOSE CASES, FOR EXAMPLE ` TRADIES ` THERE ARE KEY ROLES THAT ARE ON THE GREEN LIST. ELECTRICIANS, PLUMBERS, CONSTRUCTION MANAGERS... - WHO'S GOING TO DRIVE THE TRUCKS? ...ARE ON THE GREEN LIST WHO HAVE A CLEAR PATHWAY TO RESIDENCY BECAUSE WE'VE RECOGNISED A SHORTAGE IN THOSE AREAS. AUTO ELECTRICIANS ARE ON THAT LIST. - OK. SO THERE ARE SOME, BUT THE TRUCKING INDUSTRY IS REALLY ON YOUR CASE, AND THEY SAY THAT THERE'S GOING TO BE REDUCTION IN SERVICES IF THEY CAN'T GET THESE PEOPLE ACROSS THE BORDER. - YEAH. SO TWO IMPORTANT POINTS THERE. ONE IS THAT WITH ANY SECTOR EXPERIENCING THESE CHALLENGES, WE WILL WORK WITH THEM AND WE WILL BE PRAGMATIC. SO YOU'VE SEEN THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, IN` - ARE YOU BEING PRAG`? - CAN I GIVE YOU SOME EXAMPLES? OVER THE LAST MONTH, WE'VE MADE CHANGES TO THE WAY THAT CHEFS WERE ASSESSED BECAUSE WE HEARD MESSAGES FROM THE SECTOR. - SURE. - WE'VE DOUBLED THE NUMBER OF CAPPED WORKING HOLIDAY VISA PLACES TO SUPPORT THE HOSPO SECTOR. - SO` - WHEN I HEAR A CALL LIKE THAT FROM THE TRUCKING SECTOR, I'LL SIT DOWN AND WORK WITH THEM ON THOSE ISSUES. - SO YOU PROMISE TO SIT DOWN WITH THEM? - ABSOLUTELY. - OK. ALL RIGHT. WHAT ABOUT THE CALL FROM THE NURSES? I MEAN, YOU'RE NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT THAT. THEY STILL HAVE THE TWO-YEAR PATHWAY WORK-TO-RESIDENCY WHEN OTHER PEOPLE CAN COME STRAIGHT IN. - MM. SURE. SO WHAT` - ARE YOU GOING TO LISTEN TO THE PEOPLE ON THAT? - SO WHAT WE'VE DONE WITH NURSES HAS BEEN TO PROVIDE ALL 13 CATEGORIES OF NURSES WITH THAT TWO-YEAR PATHWAY TO RESIDENCY. THAT IS STARTING TO ATTRACT NURSES. WE'VE HAD HUNDREDS OF NURSES WHO HAVE COME IN OVER THE LAST FEW MONTHS. I WILL CONTINUE TO KEEP THAT SETTING UNDER REVIEW, AS I DO WITH THE OTHERS. - RIGHT. - AND AS I SAY, WE'VE SHOWN WHERE WE'VE BEEN WILLING TO BE PRAGMATIC WITH THE EVIDENCE IS STACKED UP TO MAKE ADJUSTMENTS WHERE WE NEED TO. - SO` - I DO JUST WANT TO COME BACK TO ONE REALLY IMPORTANT THING IN THE REBALANCE, THOUGH, SIMON ` WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DRIVERS, FOR EXAMPLE. ONE OF THE REASONS THAT WE HAVE LABOUR SHORTAGES IN SOME OF THESE SECTORS IS THAT FOR 20 OR 30 YEARS WE HAVE HAD POOR TERMS AND CONDITIONS IN THESE SECTORS. WE HAVE NOT HAD TRAINING PATHWAYS IN NEW ZEALAND. - AND YOU'RE WORKING ON THAT, RIGHT? - THE REBALANCE IS ABOUT WORKING` HAVING THE IMMIGRATION SYSTEM HERE BUT LINKED IN WITH BETTER SKILLS AND TRAINING AND PAY PATHWAYS TO BUILD UP THE DOMESTIC SECTOR. - OK. ALL RIGHT` - IN THE CASE OF BUS DRIVERS, FOR EXAMPLE, WE'VE PUT $61 MILLION IN THE BUDGET... - I KNOW THAT. ...TO HELP WITH THE ISSUE. - I KNOW YOU'RE WORKING ON THAT, BUT THERE'S SHORTFALL IN THE MEANTIME. LOOK, WE'RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. BUT CAN YOU GIVE A GUARANTEE THAT YOU'RE GOING TO KEEP AN OPEN MIND FOR NURSES AND DRIVERS? - ACROSS ALL OF THESE AREAS, I KEEP AN OPEN MIND. WHERE WE NEED TO BE FLEXIBLE AND WE NEED TO BE PRAGMATIC, WE WILL DO THAT. - IMMIGRATION MINISTER MICHAEL WOOD, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. - THANK YOU. - E WHAI AKE NEI ` ASIA CORRESPONDENT DEBI ELLIOTT EDWARD ON WHAT TO EXPECT FROM THIS WEEK'S CHINA COMMUNIST PARTY CONGRESS; PLUS, DYLAN REEVE ON HIS NEW BOOK AND WHAT THE SPREAD OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES COULD MEAN FOR OUR POLITICS. - HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK. TO BEIJING NOW, WHERE CHINA'S RULING COMMUNIST PARTY IS ABOUT TO LAUNCH ITS FIVE-YEARLY CONGRESS. PRESIDENT XI IS EXPECTED TO HAVE HIS MANDATE RENEWED, AND CHINA-WATCHERS WILL BE LOOKING CLOSELY FOR OTHER CLUES TO THE COUNTRY'S FUTURE MOVES. I ASKED ITV NEWS ASIA CORRESPONDENT DEBI EDWARD, IN BEIJING, WHAT SHE IS EXPECTING TO COME OUT OF THIS HISTORIC WEEK IN CHINA. - WELL, THESE NATIONAL CONGRESS ONLY COME AROUND EVERY FIVE YEARS, AND AT THIS POINT, AFTER HAVING SERVED TWO TERMS, PRESIDENT XI SHOULD BE STANDING DOWN AS PRESIDENT; BUT INSTEAD, AFTER A FEW YEARS AGO SCRAPPING PRESIDENCY TERM LIMITS, HE'S ABOUT TO TAKE ON AN UNPRECEDENTED THIRD TERM, POTENTIALLY FOURTH TERM AS THE LEADER OF CHINA, MAKING HIM THE LONGEST-SERVING LEADER SINCE MAO ZEDONG. AND OVER THE NEXT 10 DAYS AT THIS PARTY CONGRESS, WE EXPECT TO HEAR A LOT ABOUT WHAT HE HAS ACHIEVED IN HIS FIRST 10 DECADES IN CHARGE AND, POTENTIALLY, WHAT HE WILL GO ON TO DO IN HIS NEXT 10 YEARS. HE IS NOW BEING DESCRIBED AS 'THE CORE LEADER'. A PHRASE THEY LIKE TO REPEAT IS THAT EAST, WEST, NORTH AND SOUTH; THE PARTY IS AT THE CENTRE, AND XI JINPING IS VERY MUCH BEING PRESENTED AS THE EMBODIMENT OF THE PARTY, AND THIS CONGRESS WILL BE VERY MUCH A CELEBRATION OF HIM, THE DIRECTION HE HAS TAKEN THE COUNTRY IN SO FAR AND THE DIRECTION THAT HE IS GOING TO TAKE IT IN IN THE FUTURE. - SO, WITH ALL EYES ON XI JINPING, HOW DOES THE POPULATION FEEL ABOUT HIM HAVING ANOTHER TERM? - WELL, IT'S INHERENTLY HARD TO JUDGE THE OPINION OF A POPULATION OF 1.4 BILLION PEOPLE. THERE ARE NO OPINION POLLS HERE; THERE'S NO POPULARITY RATING FOR XI JINPING HIMSELF. AND WHEN WE DO SPEAK TO PEOPLE, WHEN WE DO ASK THEM THOSE KINDS OF QUESTIONS, IT'S VERY HARD FOR THEM TO BE HONEST BECAUSE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF GOING OFF MESSAGE. BUT JUST TO GIVE US AN INDICATION, THERE WAS A SMALL PROTEST IN BEIJING YESTERDAY ` A LONE PROTESTER HUNG TWO PROTEST BANNERS ON A MOTORWAY FLYOVER, AND IN ONE OF THOSE PROTEST BANNERS THEY DESCRIBED XI JINPING AS A DICTATOR AND A TRAITOR; THE OTHER PROTESTED AGAINST THE ZERO-COVID MEASURES, THE LACK OF FREEDOMS, THE LACK OF VOTE IN THE COUNTRY. THAT WAS JUST ONE MAN, SO HE DOESN'T REPRESENT 1.4 BILLION PEOPLE, BUT HE DOES SPEAK TO SOME DISCONTENT THERE IS IN THE COUNTRY AT THE MOMENT, PARTICULARLY DIRECTED TOWARDS THAT ZERO-COVID POLICY. - CAN WE EXPECT ANY CLUES ABOUT CHINA'S FUTURE FROM THIS CONGRESS? - WELL, I THINK IT'S VERY MUCH CONTINUATION OF THE SAME ` PRESIDENT XI IS THE CONTINUATION CANDIDATE, AND I THINK HE WILL CONTINUE HIS POLICY OF CONTROL, OF SURVEILLANCE, OF STABILITY HERE IN CHINA. 'ECONOMIC GROWTH', 'COMMON PROSPERITY' IS WHAT THEY SAY IS THE PRIORITY HERE. AND OF COURSE, ON THE INTERNATIONAL STAGE, WE'VE SEEN HIM PITCH CHINA AGAINST THE UNITED STATES AND ALIGN HIMSELF WITH RUSSIA. AND I THINK THAT IS GOING TO CONTINUE IN THE FUTURE, AND POTENTIALLY, FOLLOWING THIS CONGRESS, WE MIGHT SEE AN ACCELERATED MOVE TOWARDS REUNIFICATION WITH TAIWAN. - WOW. SO THE GLOBAL TENSIONS WITH CHINA, AS YOU SAY, HAVE GROWN ` WITH THE UYGHURS AS WELL, THE SOUTH CHINA SEA; ARE YOU SAYING THAT XI MIGHT BE EMBOLDENED WITH A FRESH MANDATE? - ABSOLUTELY. HE HAS A GREATER MANDATE. HIS POWER IS UNCHECKED, AND IT IS NOW UNLIMITED, SO HE IS FREE TO PURSUE THOSE POLICIES. AND WE'VE SEEN HIM REPEATEDLY IN MAJOR SPEECHES IN RECENT YEARS DECLARE THAT REUNIFICATION WITH TAIWAN IS A TOP PRIORITY. HE VIEWS TAIWAN ALMOST AS A MISSING PIECE OF THE JIGSAW. OTHER SO-CALLED RESTIVE PROVINCES ` TIBET, XINJIANG, HONG KONG, MACAO ` HAVE ALL BEEN BROUGHT BACK UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF THE MOTHERLAND, AND THE ONLY MISSING PIECE OF THE JIGSAW IS TAIWAN. AND AS WE SAW OVER THE SUMMER, TENSIONS THERE ARE RISING, AND THAT IS A WORRY NOT JUST FOR PEOPLE HERE BUT ACROSS THE REGION. - YOU MENTIONED BEFORE THE ZERO-COVID POLICY THAT XI JINPING HAS IMPLEMENTED IN CHINA REGARDS COVID. IS THERE ANY CHANCE THAT THAT'S GOING TO CHANGE AFTER THIS CONGRESS? - WELL, THE MESSAGING THIS MUCH` THIS WEEK HAS VERY MUCH BEEN THAT IT IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE. THE TOP COVID EXPERT IN THE COUNTRY HAS SAID THERE IS NO TIMELINE TO REMOVE ANY OF THE RESTRICTIONS. AND IN FACT, THEY SAY THE COUNTRY WILL NOT CO-EXIST WITH THE VIRUS. THEY LIKE TO SAY IT WILL NOT 'LIE DOWN', AS OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE, TO THE VIRUS AND ALLOW IT TO SPREAD UNCONTROLLED. SO I BELIEVE THAT THESE RESTRICTIONS ARE GOING TO CONTINUE INTO THE NEW YEAR, POTENTIALLY INTO THE SUMMER, DESPITE THE DEVASTATING EFFECTS THAT THEY ARE HAVING ON THE ECONOMY. THE ECONOMY IS CLOSE TO CONTRACTING FOR THE FIRST TIME, YOUTH UNEMPLOYMENT IS AT A RECORD HIGH, BUT THE COUNTRY SAYS THAT THE PEOPLE'S LIVES MUST BE THE PRIORITY, AND THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF HAS SAID THAT PERSISTENCE IS VICTORY. - DEBI EDWARD IN BEIJING. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. - THANK YOU. - STAY WITH US. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. - HOKI MAI ANO. YOU MAY REMEMBER DYLAN REEVE AS THE DIRECTOR OF THE FILM 'TICKLED'. WELL HE'S BEEN BUSY AGAIN, THIS WEEK PUBLISHING A BOOK ` 'FAKE BELIEVE: CONSPIRACY THEORIES IN AOTEAROA'. SO WHAT DO THE CONSPIRACIES MEAN FOR OUR POLITICS, AND WHAT STOPS HIM FROM FALLING DOWN THE RABBIT HOLE HIMSELF? DYLAN REEVE, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. JUST BRIEFLY, WHY DID YOU WRITE THE BOOK? - I'VE BEEN INTERESTED IN CONSPIRACY THEORIES FOR A LONG TIME. I'VE BEEN WATCHING FROM OUTSIDE FOR 20 YEARS, SOMETIMES DEBATING. OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, AND PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SEEING RELATIVES AND CO-WORKERS PRESENTING INTERESTING IDEAS, SHALL WE SAY, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN COMING TO ME AND SAYING, 'WHAT YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS?' AND I WROTE THOSE CONVERSATIONS SOUNDS KIND OF EXPAND ON THAT IN A BOOK. - WHAT STOPS YOU FROM GETTING IN INVOLVED? - I ACTUALLY DON'T KNOW. WE TEND TO ASSUME THAT PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN CONSPIRACY THEORIES ARE STUPID, AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S FAIR BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SMART AND A ANALYTICAL THINKERS. FOR SOME REASON, THEY HAVE SORT OF TAKEN IN SOME DIFFERENT IDEAS AND INFORMATION. - WHAT IS THE ATTRACTION? IS IT JUST BEING ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT? - EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT PIECE THAT HOOKS THEM IN. THERE'LL BE SOMETHING THAT APPEALS TO THEM, WHETHER IT'S A FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN LIKE A VACCINE OR WHETHER THEY'VE SEEN AN EVENT UNFOLD THAT THEY DIDN'T SEEM FELT RIGHT BECAUSE OF THE WAY IT WAS REPORTED OR SOMETHING. - THESE CONSPIRACY THEORIES CAN HAVE REAL CONSEQUENCES. AMERICAN CONSPIRACY THEORIST ALEX JONES JUST LOST A BILLION-DOLLAR COURT CASE BECAUSE HE SAID THE SANDY HOOK SCHOOL SHOOTINGS WERE FAKE. IS THIS THE FIRST TIME WAS IN SOME REAL-WORLD ACCOUNTABILITY FOR SOMEONE WHO SPREADS THIS KIND OF THING? - PROBABLY, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT ACT OUT ON THE THEORIES THAT THEY BELIEVE, SUCH AS THE GUY WHO WENT INTO A PIZZA PARLOUR AND FIRED SOME ROUNDS AND OBVIOUSLY FACED CONSEQUENCES. IN TERMS OF SOMEONE WHO PROMOTES THESE IDEAS, ALEX JONES IS THE FIRST BIG EXAMPLE. - AND IT TOOK A LONG TIME. SANDY HOOK WAS A LONG TIME AGO. - AND HE'S LOST ANOTHER CASE PREVIOUSLY ON THE SAME ISSUE. BUT I THINK THAT ONE WAS A TURNING POINT, AND A TURNING POINT FOR ME AND HOW I PAY ATTENTION TO THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES AND HOW SORT OF 'FUN' IT MIGHT BE. WE'RE NO LONGER TALKING ABOUT ESOTERIC ACTION, WE ARE NOW SEEING INDIVIDUALS, AND SAYING THIS PERSON WHO 'CLAIMS' THEY'VE LOST A CHILD IN A SHOOTING IS PART OF THIS GLOBAL CONSPIRACY. AND THEIR POINTING TO THEM, NAMING THEM. AND THAT'S A VERY DIFFERENT CONCEPT. - LET'S TALK ABOUT LOCAL POLITICS. LAST WEEKEND WE HAD FEWER THAN A DOZEN KNOWN DISINFORMATION CANDIDATES ELECTED. EVEN THOUGH THERE WAS MORE THAN` UNDER 200 PEOPLE RUNNING. WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THOSE RESULTS? - IT WAS REALLY INTERESTING TO SEE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN THERE. BECAUSE THERE ARE A LOT OF NUMBERS INVOLVED, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THINGS LIKE 'VOICES FOR FREEDOM' WHERE WE'RE ON THIS KIND OF DISINFORMATION SPECTRUM. THERE'S BIG NUMBERS THAT THEY CLAIM, 50,000, 60,000 MEMBERS. I THINK TURNING THAT INTO ACTUAL POLITICAL ACTION IS QUITE DIFFERENT FOR THEM. AND WHAT WE DON'T HAVE HERE COMPARED TO THE UNITED STATES IS THERE IS NO MAJOR POLITICAL PARTY HERE THAT IS CODDLING THOSE IDEAS. - HAS THERE BEEN SOME CREEP OF THESE IDEAS INTO THAT MORE MAINSTREAM POLITICAL DISCOURSE? - I DON'T THINK SO MASSIVELY. THERE IS A RISK HOWEVER I THINK THAT SOMETIMES POLITICIANS AND POLITICAL PARTIES CAN KIND OF ACCIDENTALLY STUMBLE IN OR BE TEMPTED TO KIND OF SLIGHTLY DOG WHISTLE. - ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT WINSTON PETERS? - WINSTON PETERS HAD A FEW MOMENTS WHERE HE DID THINGS THAT WERE PERCEIVED WITHIN SOME OF THOSE GROUPS AS BEING FRIENDLY TO THEM. AND SO OTHER POLITICIANS HAVE DONE THE SAME, SOMETIMES ACCIDENTALLY, SOMETIMES DELIBERATELY. - FLIRTING? AT THE 2020 ELECTION, THOSE FRINGE PARTIES GOT ABOUT 3% OF THE TOTAL VOTE. WE'VE HAD THE PARLIAMENTARY PROTEST SINCE THEN. WHAT ARE YOU SORT OF FEELING ABOUT THE NEXT ELECTION? - I DON'T KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF PEOPLE` THERE'S INHERENT DISTRUST OF THE SYSTEM WITH A LOT OF THESE GROUPS. IF YOU LOOK AT THE IDEA THAT THE ELECTIONS WERE STOLEN, WHICH IS SAID HERE AS WELL AS IN THE STATES, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE INCLINED TO VOTE FOR THOSE SMALLER NICHE PARTIES BUT ALSO DON'T BELIEVE IN THE SYSTEM OUT RIGHT OR DON'T PARTICIPATE. SO KIND OF BALANCES OUT. - COULD WE SEE THIS SPARKING ANY OTHER DISINFORMATION PARTIES? - BRIAN TAMAKI OBVIOUSLY WANTS TO BRING THOSE, BECAUSE THERE IS THIS IDEA THAT THEY NEED TO HAVE AN UMBRELLA PARTY. - FROM WHAT YOU SEE OF THOSE MANY DIFFERENT THEORIES AND ARGUMENTS OUT THERE, IS THERE ANY IDEA THAT AN UMBRELLA PARTY COULD ACTUALLY DO IT? - I'M SCEPTICAL JUST ON THE FACT THAT THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF PERSONALITIES INVOLVED IN DIFFERENT IDEAS. AND PEOPLE TEND TO BE SUSPICIOUS OF OTHERS, SO OTHERS WILL SUGGEST THAT BRIAN TAMARIKI IS GOVERNMENT AGENT. - A CONSPIRACY ABOUT THE CONSPIRACY. - EXACTLY. THEY ARE KIND OF PRONE TO THAT SORT OF BEHAVIOUR. - IS THERE ANY NEW CONSPIRACY THEORY ON THE HORIZON THAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING OUT FOR? - I'M SURE THERE IS. THERE COULD WELL BE ONE AFTER THIS INTERVIEW. WE KIND OF ANCHORED IN THIS WORLD WITH THE UKRAINE WAR AND COVID. - THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING IN. - THANK YOU. - THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANKS FOR WATCHING. NGA MIHI NUI, KIA ORA TATOU. SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU, SAM BAKER AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2022 HE MEA TONA KI TE HOTAKA NEI NA TE PUBLIC INTEREST JOURNALISM FUND.