Kei aku whakateitei ki te whenua kei aku tamarahi ki te rangi. Whakapiri mai ki Te Hui. Ko Mihingarangi tenei. E mihi atu nei kia koutou katoa. Welcome to The Hui ` Maori current affairs for all New Zealanders. E taro ake nei ` a haircut and a heart-to-heart... - And I'm sure all of us will really feel like shit, man. But in that moment when you're getting your hair cut, you feel like a king, even if it's only for 5 minutes. - A lot of the brothers that were coming through were, yeah, just unhappy. A little bit of depression, turning to alcohol, and so I just opened up my shop after hours for them to come through for a coffee and just sit and chat. - We check out the kaupapa, supporting men's mental health one haircut at a time. - It's nice to hear other people's problems because then you know you're not alone. - Then, it's the story creating news headlines and political headwinds. Bad news for businesses being ram-raided, crime is now the second biggest concern for Kiwis. - It is quite worrying actually. - The big driver of this is also absence from school. Need to get kids back to school because I think it's very strongly linked to this stuff. - Our panel discusses what's driving the ram-raids. Captions were made with the support of NZ On Air. www.able.co.nz Copyright Able 2022 As ram-raids and concerns about youth crime continue to dominate headlines, an older generation of South Auckland men are quietly transforming attitudes towards discussing the everyday struggles tane face. Barbershop talk is a concept of Manurewa Marae mentor and barber Tony Stowers, and a simple idea that's taken root in his community. Kei a D'Angelo Martin te roanga ke o nga korero. - Sup, uso, how are you? - I'm good. - My man. - How are you? - Good, yeah yeah, good, good. Jump up. - It may seem like a casual chat between a barber and his client... - How's the family ` all good? - Yeah. - ...but it's these small conversations that are making a big difference. - So your conversations can start from them having a crap day, to one of the kids is run away and they don't know how to deal with it, or 'I'm having a bad week with my wife.' I remember him telling me that when he's going through some pretty dark times, that's what he likes to do, eh? - Yeah. - Or when he just needs to realign his mental state, eh? - Owner of Groove Kuttz, Tony Stowers, is changing the narrative for men in Tamaki Makaurau, one haircut at a time. - The barbershop's a powerful place, eh? It's more than just the haircut. - This is a safe place for men to come and korero without the fear of being judged. - Yeah, it's a struggle, eh? The struggle's real, man. I can tell in the first couple of minutes how the haircut or the conversation's going to go. You can get clients that just want to get in and get out, but the ones that want to talk ` yeah, you know straight away. - Prior to becoming a barber, Tony worked as an engineer for 22 years. - Awesome, brother. - And during that time, he was struck by a tragedy that changed his life. - I buried my son seven years ago, and, uh, took me to some pretty dark places. My barber at the time, he just had a way of talking to you, and helped me through my grief that I was going through at the time. - Tony fell into a dark depression and began drinking heavily to numb his pain. - But, you know, I was able to have, you know, one of my close bros just be there, just be present and we'd sometimes sit there and not say a word, but because he was there, that was healing. - Inspired by his own barber, Tony Stowers threw in his engineering job and picked up the clippers. He's now created a safe place for men to korero. It's called Barbershop Talk, and the kaupapa came to fruition during the first COVID lockdown in 2020. - I don't think we were prepared for what COVID bought. I don't think anybody was prepared. You had all these whanau who were used to being apart for the week and then boom ` the dynamic just changed. - During COVID, Tony noticed his clients were facing a new kind of stress ` the long lockdowns had taken their toll on everyone's mental health. - A lot of the brothers that were coming through were just unhappy ` a little bit of depression ` turning to alcohol. And so I just opened up my shop after hours for them, to come through for coffee and just sit and chat. - Earlier this year, Manurewa Marae jumped on board to help fund the kaupapa. It's attracted men of all ages ` the youngest just 17 and the eldest 62. They all come from different walks of life? - All different walks of life, you know, got a Greek guy, Filipino, you know, a couple of Pakeha boys and then obviously Maori and Pasifika. - Since its inception, more than 450 men have been part of Barbershop Talk. A lot of the brothers been carrying their mamae for a long, long time, not knowing of any space. But I guess what we do makes them feel comfortable, and allows them to express themselves, eh? Well done, bro. - The talks have proved so popular Tony needed a bigger venue. He's moved to this gym ` run by his league legend cousin Rueben Wiki ` adding health and wellness to their kaupapa. - I think it was really important to try start something with my cousin and just make more men aware of speaking out as it's safe to do. - As a former hard man of the Warriors, Reuben says he was taught to never show emotion and to hide his feelings. - I played in the 90s, and the men that I was involved with were hard Kiwi men, back in those days just said 'get up, harden up, 'don't worry about sharing your feelings' kind of thing. - That perspective has changed and Reuben says that spaces for men to come together are very much needed now more than ever. - Internally, you bottle it up, it's just going to explode one day and probably won't be a nice one. - Currently, I'm out on bail, because of a assault charge, and I'm here to share my story and get myself better, I don't want to be a violent person any more. - Some of the issues discussed here are things that these men usually keep to themselves. - I'm sure all of us will agree you feel like shit, man, but in that moment when you're getting your haircut, you feel like a king, even if it's only for 5 minutes. You're feeling fresh, you're feeling, 'I can face the world,' and that's what I get from here. - Just looking for something but I just couldn't` I didn't know where to look, I didn't know who to turn to, or what I was looking for ` I just needed some advice from somebody to talk to. - Tony says Barbershop Talk has been empowering for the tane who attend. - What I love about this group is even though we do have our struggles, we've got each other checking in, eh? And, man, that's second to none, priceless, you know? - Why do you think tane always turn up on Tuesday? - I believe it's because of the space that we've created. - I never thought in my wildest dreams that I would be in a group of men who look like me and feel safe talking about, you know, what we share. - So we normalise crying, we normalise that it's OK to be vulnerable, and what happens in that space, you're not judged, and it stays there. - It's nice to hear other people's problems because then you know you're not alone. - It's a big mental shift for these tane learning that it's OK to talk about their feelings... - There's no point getting angry at her. - ...something that wasn't second nature for Tony. - I'm not saying that there was a lot of bad things that happened in my upbringing, there wasn't. It just wasn't those kind of conversations that took place. - Do you think the momentum's changed and switched out now? - Definitely. But I still think it could be more work done. - That mahi includes extending the Barbershop Talk to rangatahi. - Some of the kids that come through seen too much, way too much for their time, you know ? They come to the barbershop because, one, they feel safe, two, they can openly and freely express themselves and know that they're not going to be judged. - Yeah, a lot of things going on around here, you know, ram raids and gangs and stuff like that, but we're just kinda trying to get our backyard in check first. - We're here for you... - And Barbershop Talk is a powerful example of a mental health model for tane that's working. Where do you hope to see your kaupapa in the near future? - I would like to see us become better versions of ourselves ` better fathers, better husbands, you know, better brothers, partners, just better men. Kia kaha ra, tane ma. After the break, we discuss what's causing the recent spate of ram-raids. No reira, kia mau tonu mai ra te titiro. - Hoki mai ano. While, generally, youth crime has been steadily decreasing for the past decade, ram-raids have been ramping up over the past 12 months. In Tamaki Makaurau and Kirikiriroa alone, 347 offenders were responsible for 2000 charges since May this year. Opposition MPs are critical of the way these youth are being dealt with, while others say we must look at the wider picture ` New Zealand is experiencing record high inflation and a cost of living crisis. So to discuss ram-raids, young people and solutions, we're joined by a panel of matanga Maori ` AUT Dean of Law, Khylee Quince, former police inspector and chair of Te Puea Memorial Marae, Hurimoana Dennis, and Manurewa Marae CEO, Takutaimoana 'Tasha' Kemp. Tena koutou. - Kia ora, tena koe. - Kia ora. - Kia ora. - Let's just jump right into it ` what do we know about this group of youth, this cohort? - So they're young, they're predominantly Maori, and they are young people and children for whom life is very tough and has been tough for a long time, as it has been for their wider whanau, not just in this generation but for generations before them. - Yeah, when you look at some of the latest stats on them, so those kids would have been around 7 and 11 at the time that Te Puea Marae opened their door to the homeless back in 2016. Should we have expected this? Should we have seen it coming? - You know what, Mihi, the New Zealand Police, Oranga Tamariki, MSD, MoE, MoH, and even us on the coalface, we know who these kids are ` we know their siblings, we know their parents, we know all their cousins, we even know where they live, what they do, so on and so forth, and the sad thing about it is they still follow the mentality of reactive rather than preventative and always starting at the wrong place, Mihi, always starting at the wrong place ` Crown agencies in particular, they won't get out of bed until something happens. We're sitting at the front end of the business, looking at it before it happens and doing what we can do, But hey, you know, the resources, the funding, the mandate, and a whole lot of other things, we've had to sort of do it as we can with what we've got, so, not surprising at all, but by crikey, when are we going to wake up? They're all sitting there, it's not new. - When you just look at one of these families, or all of them, are you able to describe what might be going on in there? - Oh, definitely, and we see it on the daily, you know? Just of yesterday, I spoke with a whanau, and it's intergenerational ` it's been around for a long, long time, and... But what I see in these whanau is, actually, the want to be loved, they want to change their lives, they want to be able to reconnect with their whanau and with their tamariki, but there's just so many issues involved in the challenges of life, day-to-day life is hard and it won't change overnight. There's lots of work that needs to be involved from the ground up to be able to support these whanau, but you can see within these whanau, when you get to talk to them, you know, really what's happening and they're not afraid to tell you, but when they're in the system, you know, they back up. - How much of this can be put down to, you know, the blow off after the COVID lockdown? - Well, I think that's exposed things that were already there. So these are the whanau that the marae have been dealing with and that agencies have been dealing with for many, many years, so, probably a combination of media spotlighting, including social media, has really just exposed what, you know, people that are already well known, and so, yeah... - It was definitely always there, but COVID heightened it, you know, with the lockdown, people being at home, you know, as parents, they spent more time during lockdown with their tamariki, you know, being in that space ` it created more stresses at times, actually, how much of a parent we you know, we were and what we needed to do, and in that time of change and things got really hard for whanau, and there are resources out there, but it's just how they connected to those. - I think Tasha's quite right ` it actually brought on opportunities as well for us to do the things that we've been wanting to do, now we're able to do them, and the sad thing about it, Mihi, is all the resources that we have now, potentially for COVID, you know, there is a possibility that we might lose them. And I'm saying if we do that, we're going backwards by about two and a half years, three years even. Let us keep what we've got, let us use what we've got, we can vary pour services as we already are doing, don't take those things away, but let us provide the service in the way it needs to be provided rather than having systems and processes to sort of administrate and put it all in alphabetical order, which isn't what it is. - We're told by the reports that the vast majority of these tamariki are meeting in detention centres, like youth detention and the rest of it. So, you know, without putting blame on Oranga Tamariki ` but they are in their care ` what does it tell you about that kind of care? - Well, it tells you that that's not an appropriate place for children and young people. And so this is often, as Huri's already said, we're starting in the wrong point. So this is started ` well, the media narrative of this in the past couple of months has been a youth justice issue, where this is really an issue of justice for young people more broadly, the justice in their lives, the ability for them to have food security, to have appropriate parenting, to have safe and healthy housing, all of the things and services that these kind of heroes of our community are able to assist them with. - And can you just on the record, you know, tell us, the whanau that you're working with, do they have those issues? Do they have housing issues? Do they have food issues and all those things? - Definitely. And that's actually the main cause, eh? These kids are out there because they can't get what they, you know, what they want from home, you know, because their whanau, they're all struggling, eh? The priority for whanau, especially during COVID, was kai, and it's still there ` it hasn't changed since we're coming out of COVID ` there's such a huge need for kai. You know, petrol prices are increasing, when they're making a decision around what they want to do and spend their money on, it's not all these other things ` kai is always been the priority. But there is, you know, there's housing issues, there's the rent, there's all those kinds of things, and when tamariki or their rangatahi want something else, they can't do that. So they're going out to these other places to be able to get it. - But you know, they were the before COVID... - Yeah, yeah. - ...they there after COVID. We're doing the work already, Mihi, and nothing needs to change drastically other than maintain the resourcing, let us lead and do what we need to do and do it well. - You know, you're right, because when you look through the youth justice insights, I think it's called, you can see that actually it's been a steady decrease in almost every area of youth crime except for this one. And you have Opposition MPs calling for tougher punishment for them, but what's the fine line, Huri, in your policing experience? Are we going to lock them up, put a bracelet on their feet, or come up with a different solution? - You know, a common sense, common sense ` a good blend of L-A-W and L-O-R-E, a bit of aroha, is what's happening in the community at the moment, and it is a fine line, but, you know, you don't need to be a professor or somebody of high matauranga to understand, Hey, here are some of the things that we need to stop. if we can do all of that, all of these things will sort of fall into place, but you know what Mihi, just as I said before, this is not new stuff. I mean, the interviews and the korero we've had in the past around Maori youth ` next month it'll be carjacking, month after there it'll be graffiti... - Ten years ago it was robbery. - ...same people, so, you know, pull back ` the resources in the community just need to be maintained so that we can keep doing what we're doing, but do it well. Agencies have a role to play, but look, it's more administrative, it's more back office support, don't get involved with all the other stuff ` we can do that. - What about their education? What's happening for them in terms of education? - So like many young people who offend, they are disengaged from education, so this is just not really about the offending behaviour, it's about why they aren't at home at night time, supervised, why they aren't engaged in school. And those are things that are part of, you know, the positive experiences of young people's lives. So that's part of that justice for young people, not youth justice. so, we know these things and to be honest, our youth justice system is spectacularly effective for the vast majority of young people and has been for 30 years. But there has always been 10% to 15% hardcore offending, and when the people are filtered out that for whom it does work well, you are left with that hardcore, and they are the same with adult offenders, so they are high risk, high needs and they need early intervention before they get to that, so engagement with school... - Why are we not hearing this? And don't be worried about offending me because I'm in the media ` but why do you think we're not hearing these messages? - Well, there's an interesting, you know, the fact that youth court is private, you know, and rightfully so, because of what you've highlighted, is the contamination effect of once children and young people are in detention centres, they learn worse social behaviour from others that become their co-offenders effectively. And it works well partly because it is private ` and so Joe Public and the media tend not to place the lens on what actually happens. So the media, for example, yesterday or this week, has started to talk about the numbers of arrests of these young people ` they won't result in convictions ` that's not how youth justice works, as we know, they'll go to a family group conference and they should get wraparound support and services and a plan of action that will enable them to get a discharge ` they won't be locked up. So all of that is really just political game playing, but it's not actually what happens. - You know, sitting in front of all ` and look, I might depart from my two tuahine here, but look, for me, the axis and the tuara of this mamae ake, is the adult gangs, OK? And inside some of these families you've got their own adult siblings recruiting their nephews, their nieces, their friends, but directly or indirectly the adult gangs are involved because look, if you're talking about ram-raids of jewellery and stuff, I mean, really, does a 10-year-old really wake up one day and say, 'I'm going to go and do this,' 'I want to do this'? This is crime to demand, OK, so it's all very planned, so that's the axis of everything we've got here, Mihi. - And the whakapapa of our adult gangs, as we know, goes right back to state abuse and, you know, 1950s and urbanisation the rest of it. So here you are, in Manurewa, in the heart of actually where our people came from, those areas, you know, 30, 40 years ago, now, what are some of the programs that you're running to try and include the mamas and the uncles and the aunties? - Well, we've been recently looking at the way we engage with our whanau ` and our most vulnerable whanau, you know ` so we're putting in strategies and solutions actually, that come from the whanau, because I think that's what we miss sometimes ` here we are, we talk about the tamariki, we talk about, you know, what the system's going to do, but actually, no one actually talks to whanau. And so recently, the marae has been engaging and having conversations with whanau, and, you know, they actually want to see things like Mana Wahine days, days that are going to whakapiki wairua, those are the things they want to look for, they want hope, they want a change, but you've got to do that slowly, you know, you can't just force them into these little pockets, they need to be nurtured and mirimiri'd into different spaces. Having solutions such as rongoa Maori, having our matakite there, having our kaumatua and kuia around to be able to, you know, give a bit of guidance around what's happening and what they see. So those are some of the solutions from our mama and from the mothers of these tamariki that have wanted to see, and so they've just driven that, lately, at manurewa Marae. We talked to some rangatahi, eh? They actually just want things to do. You know, they want to be engaged, but they've got to be things that they want to be engaged in because, you know, sometimes as adults we sit there and go, 'OK, you're going to do A, B and C, you're going to do this, this and this.' They're like, 'Who cares?' - And this is why local and central government is so important. We just had a debate recently, we found out in our research that in South Auckland playgrounds, there is only one to three pieces of equipment, compared to the North shore that has the whole bougie stuff. So, I mean, if you've got a message for government, what is it? - Yeah, and look, first and foremost, just if I can, what Tasha was saying, having those conversations but having challenging ones as well, because some of our parents haven't been doing what they're supposed to be doing and we can't roll away from having both sides of the conversation, but at Manurewa, at Te Puea, at other maraes, that's the place to have them. But in answer to your question, Mihi, it comes back to the year 2022, OK, we're all loaded with some COVID related resources, let us keep them ` don't take them away. We've already strategized, as Natasha's saying, about what we're going to be doing with them. The other thing is the Crown ` they need to know their place inside of this, and it is not at the front, it's at the back ` more administrative, more back of the support. Let us get on with it. The other thing is keep the politics right out of the conversation, OK? It's not helpful, OK, trying to make statements and programs around voting ` not good. And this is what's been steering some of the conversations away from the real issues, as Natasha has been talking about, and Khylee ` they're real, keep the politics out of it ` don't need it. - Your advice if someone was listening? - Probably it's a matter ` I do think there are politics involved, this is a matter of distributive justice, but it's not politics in the sense of any particular government ` it's the Crown. It's a matter of equity, and it's a time of reckoning. You know, 2040 is not far away, the 200th anniversary of the signing of Te Tiriti, this is where, you know, the rubber hits the road and it's politics in the sense of funding ` the funding from whoever's in government. - Would you agree? - Yeah, I agree, and I mean Oranga Tamariki isn't the place for our tamariki to grow up in, you know, it is` the State shouldn't be looking after our Tamariki ` in fact, there's a role for whanau to be involved, for iwi and for hapu and those of us that are urban, to be able to take care and look after our tamariki and keep them connected. There's a place for marae. So we've been saying to Oranga Tamariki actually devolve that putea out to those of us that can do that, like Huri is saying, the money needs to be able to come back out, we do need that funding to be able to continue how we engage with our own mokopuna, and we've got to be able to find that, you know, keep having these challenging korero, but to be able to bring it back out - Korero rangatira. Tena koutou katoa. - Kia ora. - Kia ora, tena koe. - Kia ora. - Kia mau tonu mai ra te titiro, e hoa ma. Ka hui ano tatou akuanei. Auraki mai ano ki Te Hui. Coming up next week, John Boynton travels to the Bay of Plenty to meet a whanau still reeling from the senseless murder of their loved one, Jamaine Wharton. A 21st birthday held in the small valley of Waiohau, meant to bring whanau together, turned into gang fuelled chaos. - It almost felt like the devil was in the house, that's exactly what it was. - One of the party guests, 31-year-old Jamaine Horton, was surrounded, then chased from the club rooms. - I know my nephew's harmless. He doesn't like fighting, never has. - Beaten, stabbed to death, in the middle of the night, just metres from his whanau's urupa... - He would have been scared. He honestly would have been scared. - ...while his partner and their children were at home waiting for him. - He's dead. He died on me. What the hell am I going to tell or babies? - So how did a 21st birthday in the peaceful and quiet valley of Waiohau, end with the murder of Jamaine Wharton, on the whenua he loved? He was a family man with no known gang connections, he wasn't a fighter, yet he was targeted by men wearing Mongrel Mob red, some who would end up killing him. Kua hikina Te Hui, e hoa ma. Ka nui te mihi ki aku manuhiri i tenei po. Noho ora mai ra. Ko te reo te take. Na Te Puna Whakatongarewa Te Hui I tautoko.