- TENA TATOU KATOA. I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. - AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. NAU MAI, WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` THE PRIME MINISTER FLIES TO SOUTH-EAST ASIA FOR APEC AND THE EAST ASIA SUMMIT; WILL SHE SECURE A MEETING WITH PRESIDENT XI? - NEW MINISTER KIERAN MCANULTY ON A QUEST TO WIN THE TRUST OF RURAL NEW ZEALAND. - WITH HATE SPEECH LAWS ON THE WAY, DR CHRIS WILSON ON WHAT SHOULD BE IN THEM ` AND WHAT MUST BE LEFT ALONE. - AND A SPECIAL REPORT ON THE ANCIENT MAORI TREATMENTS BEING TRIALLED IN THE FIGHT AGAINST KAURI DIEBACK. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2022 AND FIRST IN THE PROGRAMME ` THE PRIME MINISTER HAS JUST TAKEN OFF FOR A JAM-PACKED TRIP TO SOUTHEAST ASIA. LEADERS FROM AROUND THE GLOBE ARE BEING PULLED TO THE REGION FOR SUMMIT SEASON AS TENSIONS RISE. - JACINDA ARDERN WILL SPEND ALL OF NEXT WEEK OUT OF THE COUNTRY AFTER A VERY BUSY YEAR OVERSEAS. HAS IT BEEN TOO MUCH? OR HAVE THE GAINS BEEN WELL WORTH HER TIME? HERE'S POLITICAL REPORTER AMELIA WADE. - I WANT TO MAKE A BRIEF STATEMENT. - AMELIA WADE: PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT XI JINPING AND PRIME MINISTER JACINDA ARDERN ALL HEADING TO THE SAME PLACE ` SOUTHEAST ASIA ` AT THE SAME TIME. - REGIONAL TENSIONS UNDOUBTEDLY HAVE INCREASED. TENSIONS RISING AS THREE MAJOR LEADERS' MEETINGS ARE HAPPENING IN THE SPACE OF A WEEK. FIRST IS THE EAST ASIA SUMMIT IN CAMBODIA THIS WEEK. BIDEN WILL BE THERE, BUT ARDERN ISN'T AFTER ANOTHER SIT-DOWN. PRESIDENT BIDEN I HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET AT LENGTH EARLIER IN THE YEAR. I EXPECT WE'LL CATCH UP IN THE MARGINS, BUT FOCUS FOR US ON THIS OCCASION WILL BE MEETING THOSE WHO MAY BE NEWER TO THOSE FORUMS. - BIDEN WILL THEN BOOST TO THE G20 MEETING OF THE 20 MOST POWERFUL NATIONS IF THE WORLD, HAPPENING IN BALI. THERE, BIDEN AND XI WILL MEET FACE-TO-FACE AS THEY STAND OFF OVER THE SOUTH CHINA SEA. LITTLE NEW ZEALAND ISN'T INVITED TO THAT G20 MEGA MEETING; INSTEAD, ARDERN WILL HEAD TO VIETNAM FOR A TRADE MISSION. - IT'S AN AREA OF CONSIDERABLE OPPORTUNITY. WE'VE SEEN, FOR INSTANCE, A 43% INCREASE IN OUR TRADE IN VIETNAM IN JUST FIVE YEARS. - AND THEN AT THE END OF THE WEEK IS APEC ` IN THAILAND, IN BANGKOK. NEWSHUB UNDERSTANDS A MEGA MEETING COULD BE ON THE CARDS ` PRESIDENT XI JINPING. - WE'LL CONFIRM BILATERALS CLOSER TO THE TIME. - IT HINGES ON THE SCHEDULING OF THE THREE-MEETING BONANZA, ONE OF WHICH IS A VERY MALE LINEUP. - I'M NOW THE ONLY WOMAN AT THE EAST ASIA SUMMIT, SO THAT WEIGHS ON MY MIND. - ALSO WEIGHING ON HER MIND IS THE STUMBLING STATE OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONSHIPS, ESPECIALLY IN A REGION THREATENED BY NORTH KOREA'S NUKES AND CHINA'S INCREASING AGGRESSION. ARDERN WANTS NEW ZEALAND TO BE PEACEMAKER. - OUR JOB WILL BE ` HOW DO WE DRIVE CONSENSUS TOWARDS SOLUTIONS IN THESE TROUBLE TIMES? - TROUBLED BY WAR, PROTECTIONISM AND COVID. THE WORLD THIS YEAR OPENING UP, SEEING THE PRIME MINISTER RACK UP THE AIR MILES ` VISITING SINGAPORE, JAPAN, THE UNITED STATES, AUSTRALIA, FIJI, THE EU, UK, AUSTRALIA AGAIN; THEN BACK TO THE UK AGAIN FOR THE QUEEN'S FUNERAL; AND THEN BACK TO THE STATES ` AGAIN; ANTARCTICA; AND, NOW, SOUTHEAST ASIA. - WE HAVE A VERY CLEAR MESSAGE FOR THE WORLD RIGHT NOW ` NEW ZEALAND IS OPEN FOR BUSINESS. WE'RE OPEN FOR TOURISM; WE'RE ARE OPEN FOR INTERNATIONAL EDUCATION AND TRADE. I SEE MY JOB AS REALLY LEADING THE CHARGE IN SHARING THAT MESSAGE. - NEWSHUB NATION HAS TALLIED UP ALL THOSE DAYS OUT OF THE COUNTRY ` 62 DAYS. THAT'S JUST OVER EIGHT WEEKS. - I DON'T TAKE ANY DECISION TO TRAVEL OVERSEAS LIGHTLY. FOR ME, I HAVE TO HAVE THE ABILITY TO DEMONSTRATE THE VALUE TO NEW ZEALAND BEFORE I TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY. - A MAJOR FACTOR IN THE PRIME MINISTER'S DECISION NOT TO GO TO THE COP CLIMATE SUMMIT WAS HOW LONG SHE'D BE AWAY FOR. - IT MEANS I WOULD BE GONE FOR A CONTINUOUS... LONG PERIOD; I WOULD NOT BE CHAIRING CABINET THROUGH THOSE PERIODS. I'M VERY MINDFUL ON THE LENGTH OF TIME I SPEND OUT OF NEW ZEALAND AT ANY GIVEN TIME. - THE PRIME MINISTER HAS SPENT TWO MONTHS OF THIS YEAR OUT OF THE COUNTRY, BUT IT'S NOT BEEN WITHOUT ITS FRUITS. SHE SECURED FREE TRADE DEALS WITH THE EU, UK; WON KIWIS IN AUSTRALIA CITIZENSHIP RIGHTS AND SECURED THAT HALLOWED WHITE HOUSE VISIT. AND SO IT'S WHEELS-UP YET AGAIN TO CONTINUE THE RECONNECTION MISSION. - AMELIA WADE THERE. AND SHE'S ON A PLANE TO CAMBODIA RIGHT NOW TO COVER THOSE MEETINGS FOR US ACROSS THE WEEK. - CLOSER TO HOME ` FOLLOWING MONTHS OF SILENCE ON HATE SPEECH LAWS, JUSTICE MINISTER KIRI ALLAN HAS PROMISED THAT THEY'LL BE INTRODUCED TO PARLIAMENT THIS YEAR. SHE'LL JOIN US HERE LIVE ON THE PROGRAMME NEXT SATURDAY. AND DR CHRIS WILSON IS A HATE SPEECH RESEARCHER WHO RUNS THE MASTERS OF CONFLICT AND TERRORISM STUDIES AT AUCKLAND UNIVERSITY, AND HE JOINS US NOW. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, CHRIS. I'M INTERESTED ` WHAT DOES HATE SPEECH LOOK LIKE IN NEW ZEALAND? WHAT HAVE YOU FOUND IN YOUR RESEARCH? - I THINK WE'RE PROBABLY SEEING UNPRECEDENTED LEVELS OF VILIFICATION AND ABUSE OF PEOPLE` I THINK THE EASIEST WAY TO PUT IT IS, UM, OF PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THEIR IDENTITIES, WHETHER THEY BE ETHNIC OR RELIGIOUS OR GENDER IDENTITY, SEXUAL IDENTITY. SO... AND I THINK IT'S PRETTY CLEAR THAT THOSE LEVELS ARE GROWING. IT'S QUITE HARD TO GET` BECAUSE THERE'S NO REAL RECORD OF LEVELS OF ONLINE HATE SPEECH. BUT I THINK IT'S PRETTY CLEAR THAT THOSE LEVELS ARE INCREASING. YOU KNOW, WE` I THINK WE ALL SEE IT. I'VE SEEN SOME STATISTICS. STUDIES SHOW THAT ABOUT` APPROXIMATELY 45% OR 50% OF YOUNG PEOPLE COME ACROSS HATE SPEECH ONLINE. SO THE LEVELS ARE HIGH. UM, NEW ZEALAND IS NO EXCEPTION. I THINK, YOU KNOW, OVERSEAS... I THINK WE'VE FOLLOWED OVERSEAS TRENDS; THE LEVELS ARE HIGH. MOST MINORITY COMMUNITIES ` SO THOSE GROUPS THAT I JUST MENTIONED, THOSE IDENTITIES I JUST MENTIONED ` ARE SUBJECT TO ABUSE, QUITE REGULAR ABUSE, ONLINE. - AND DOES IT JUST LIVE ONLINE, OR WHERE DOES IT LIVE IN AOTEAROA NEW ZEALAND IN REAL LIFE? - SO, THE WAY I THINK OF IT AND THE WAY I TRY AND EXPLAIN IT IS I THINK HATE IS A PROCESS, RIGHT? SO YOU'VE GOT ONLINE HATE ` VERY HIGH LEVELS OF IT ` AND ALMOST UNREGULATED VITRIOL AGAINST PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THEIR IDENTITIES. BUT THAT OFTEN SPILLS OVER TO OFFLINE HATE CRIMES ` VIOLENCE AND INTIMIDATION, HARASSMENT. STUDIES HAVE SHOWN` QUITE SOPHISTICATED STUDIES HAVE SHOWN HIGHER LEVELS OF ONLINE HATE LEAD TO HIGHER LEVELS OF HATE CRIME, PARTICULARLY HARASSMENT. IT OPENS THAT` IT MAKES PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEY ARE JUSTIFIED IN ABUSING PEOPLE FACE-TO-FACE, BUT ALSO OTHER LEVELS OF HATE CRIMES, INCLUDING ASSAULT. AND THEN, OF COURSE, THOSE LEVELS OF THAT FORM OF HATE AND VIOLENCE ALSO PLAYS A ROLE IN CREATING THE LARGER FORMS OF POLITICAL VIOLENCE SUCH AS TERRORIST ATTACKS, AS WE SAW IN CHRISTCHURCH. I MEAN, THERE'VE BEEN A NUMBER OF TERRORISTS WHO HAVE EXPLICITLY STATED BEFORE THEIR ATTACKS THAT THEY ARE SICK OF TALKING ONLINE AND THEY ACTUALLY NEED TO PUT THEIR WORDS INTO ACTION, SO IT'S` THESE THINGS ARE CONNECTED. I THINK PEOPLE IN AOTEAROA AND ACROSS THE WORLD NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT THESE THINGS ARE A PROCESS, AND IT'S A CYCLE. THOSE FORMS OF VIOLENCE OFFLINE THEN FEED BACK INTO WHAT'S BEING SAID ONLINE, AND THE PROCESS CONTINUES TO ESCALATE. - WILL NEW LEGISLATION STOP HATE SPEECH? - SO THIS IS THIS IS THE TRICKY QUESTION, RIGHT? IT'S DIFFICULT TO SAY WHAT WILL STOP IT, BUT BECAUSE IT IS A PROCESS AND BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF IT, I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF INTERVENTIONS THAT CAN BE MADE AT A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT PLACES. AND I COMMEND THE GOVERNMENT FOR TRYING SOMETHING. SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE. YOU KNOW, THE LEVELS OF ARE INCREASING ` LEVELS OF HATE CRIME, PHYSICAL ABUSE ARE INCREASING, BOTH IN NEW ZEALAND` YOU KNOW, OUR STATISTICS ARE FAIRLY RUDIMENTARY AT THE MOMENT, UNFORTUNATELY, WHICH MAKES IT DIFFICULT FOR RESEARCHERS TO GET A GRIP ON THE SCALE OF THE PROBLEM HERE. BUT CERTAINLY OVERSEAS, WHERE THE DATA IS BETTER ` EVERY YEAR, YEAR ON YEAR, THERE IS AN INCREASING LEVEL OF HATE CRIMES. SO SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE. THE LEGISLATION ` UM... IT'S DIFFICULT TO SAY WHETHER IT WILL HAVE AN IMPACT, BUT IT CERTAINLY IT'S PART OF` AND I COMMEND THE GOVERNMENT FOR TRYING, YOU KNOW. WHETHER THE LEGISLATION'S QUITE GOT IT RIGHT YET ` FROM WHAT WE KNOW OF IT SO FAR AND WHAT WE KNOW OF WHAT WAS ATTEMPTED A YEAR AGO, WHETHER IT'S QUITE RIGHT. UM, BUT AT LEAST THEY'RE TRYING SOMETHING. - I WANT TO TALK TO YOU MORE ABOUT THAT LEGISLATION IN JUST A SECOND. BUT I'M ALSO INTERESTED ` YOU KNOW, WHAT ARE WE EXPERIENCING? WHAT GROUPS ARE EXPERIENCING HATE IN NEW ZEALAND? IS IT RACISM? IS IT SEXISM? IS IT ISLAMOPHOBIA, FOR EXAMPLE? WHERE DO YOU SEE IT DIRECTED WITHIN OUR SOCIETY? - ALL OF THE ABOVE. I THINK... GENERALLY, IN AOTEAROA AND OVERSEAS, THE HIGHEST LEVELS ARE RACIAL` WHAT ARE GENERALLY CATEGORISED AS RACIAL AND RELIGIOUS. UM, ABUSE AND VILIFICATION ALONG GENDER AND SEXUAL IDENTITY IS ALSO INCREASING ` PROBABLY INCREASING AT THE HIGHEST RATE, ALTHOUGH THE NUMBERS ARE PROBABLY NOT QUITE AT THAT LEVEL AT THE MOMENT. SO, UH` MAORI AS WELL. PRETTY MUCH ALL MINORITIES ARE SUBJECT TO ABUSE. AND ONE THING THAT I FOUND THROUGH MY RESEARCH WITH HATE AND EXTREMISM INSIGHTS AOTEAROA ` WHICH IS A RESEARCH TEAM I LEAD AT THE UNIVERSITY OF AUCKLAND ` IS THAT THE RESEARCH` OUR RESEARCH SHOWS, IN THE NEW ZEALAND CONTEXT, THE MORE OF THESE GROUPS THAT PEOPLE ARE VILIFYING ONLINE, THE HIGHER THEIR LEVELS OF EMOTION BEHIND THE POSTS, SO THE ANGRIER, THE MORE FRUSTRATED AND THEREFORE THE MORE POTENTIAL FOR VIOLENCE ON THE PART OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HATING MORE GROUPS. - BECAUSE IT'S A CYCLE. RAGE SEEMS TO BE SORT OF EVERYWHERE THESE DAYS, DOESN'T IT? BUT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME IS THAT IT'S PART OF A CYCLE ` THAT ANGER AND THAT RAGE, THAT IT BUILDS UP. - ABSOLUTELY. IT IS A CYCLE. AND IT'S DIFFICULT TO KNOW HOW TO BREAK IT. ALL THESE THINGS FEED INTO EACH OTHER. THEY WIDEN THE` YOU KNOW, WE REFER TO IT IN ACADEMIA AS THE OVERTON WINDOW OF ACCEPTABLE DISCOURSE. THEY MAKE PEOPLE START ALMOST TALKING ABOUT` AS WE'VE SEEN IN THE UNITED STATES RECENTLY, THE DISCUSSION OF VIOLENCE ALL OF A SUDDEN HAS BECOME SOMETHING THAT'S ACTUALLY LEGITIMATE. A LOT OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY THINK THAT THE USE OF VIOLENCE IS LEGITIMATE. ALL OF THESE THINGS CHANGE OVER TIME. YOU KNOW, WE'VE SEEN SO MUCH PROGRESS IN SOCIETY ACROSS THE WORLD OVER A NUMBER OF DECADES. BUT THEN, OF COURSE, IT'S NEVER INEVITABLE THAT WE'RE GOING TO KEEP PROGRESSING IN A POSITIVE WAY. IT CAN ACTUALLY` WE CAN ACTUALLY START TO GO BACKWARDS. - REGRESS, I SUPPOSE. - YEAH. - WHAT DRIVES PEOPLE TO THESE PLACES, TO THAT HATE? - YEAH. AGAIN, YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE MILLION-DOLLAR QUESTION, I GUESS. IT'S A HUGE QUESTION. SO... IT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION BECAUSE THE HATE SPEECH IS PART OF WHAT LEADS TO THE VIOLENCE OFFLINE, BUT IT'S NOT ALL OF IT, OBVIOUSLY. BUT IT IS ONE PART OF IT. AND SO THAT'S WHY IT'S GOOD TO TRY AND ATTEMPT TO RESOLVE THAT. BUT IT'S ALSO DRIVEN BY ALIENATION, FRUSTRATION, A SENSE OF MARGINALISATION, A SENSE OF NOT BEING PART OF SOCIETY, POVERTY, INEQUALITY; POLARISATION IS VERY, VERY IMPORTANT. THAT'S WHY THE UNITED STATES, I BELIEVE, IS SEEING MANY OF THE PROBLEMS THAT IT IS AT THE MOMENT. AND AOTEAROA IS NOT QUITE AT THAT STAGE YET. WE HAVEN'T GOT SIMILAR LEVELS OF POLARISATION, BUT WE ARE SEEING MOVEMENT TOWARDS THAT. SO THOSE ARE, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST SOME OF THE KEY ISSUES. - YEAH. NOW, WHAT THAT TELLS ME IS THAT LEGISLATION IS NOT GOING TO FIX ALL OF THOSE THINGS, THAT IT HAS TO BE A BIGGER RESPONSE THAN THAT. BUT LEGISLATION, AS YOU'VE SAID, IS A PIECE. WHAT ARE YOUR HOPES FOR THE LEGISLATION? - SO, THE HOPES FOR THE LEGISLATION... WHEN I USED TO WORK IN PEACE BUILDING, WE USED TO BASE OUR APPROACHES ON THE DO-NO-HARM PRINCIPLE, YOU KNOW, WHICH IS FROM` WHICH IS... YOU CAN TRY AND FIX THINGS, BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS THAT YOU DON'T MAKE THINGS WORSE. I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE KEPT IN MIND. AND THIS IS IMPORTANT LEGISLATION, AND IT'S GOING TO POTENTIALLY HAVE A VERY POSITIVE IMPACT. BUT THERE IS A POTENTIAL` THERE IS POTENTIAL FOR IT TO MAKE THINGS WORSE, CREATE A` - HOW? - ...CREATE A BACKLASH AGAINST IT IN TERMS OF PEOPLE CRITICISING A 'WOKE' GOVERNMENT AND` YOU KNOW, AND SO ON, AND POTENTIALLY GENERATE MORE RHETORIC` HATEFUL SPEECH THAN IT ACTUALLY PREVENTS ` IF IT'S NOT DONE CORRECTLY, IF IT'S NOT DONE VERY, VERY CAREFULLY. SO I WOULD` WHILE I COMMEND THE GOVERNMENT FOR ATTEMPTING THIS TYPE OF LEGISLATION, IT'S SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE DONE VERY CAREFULLY, I BELIEVE. - THEY NEED TO GET IT RIGHT, AND THEY NEED TO TAKE PEOPLE WITH THEM. - THAT'S RIGHT. YEAH. - WELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US THIS MORNING, CHRIS WILSON. - YEAH, THANKS FOR HAVING ME. - E WHAI AKE NEI ` WE DISSECT, DEBATE AND ANALYSE THE WEEK IN POLITICS WITH OUR PANEL, MARIA SLADE, ELLA HENRY AND BEN THOMAS. BUT FIRST ` IS THE GOVERNMENT LOSING RURAL NEW ZEALAND? THE NEW MINISTER TRYING TO MAKE SURE IT DOESN'T. - HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. WELL, FROM THREE WATERS TO FARMING EMISSIONS, RURAL NEW ZEALAND IS PUSHING BACK AGAINST BIG GOVERNMENT REFORMS. - NEW MINISTER KIERAN McANULTY IS THE MAN TASKED WITH TURNING THAT AROUND. HE'S MET WITH 54 RURAL AND PROVINCIAL COUNCILS ` BUT CAN HE DELIVER THE POLICY CHANGE THEY WANT? - HE SAT DOWN IN PARLIAMENT WITH SENIOR REPORTER CONOR WHITTEN, WHO ASKED WHAT HE'S DOING TO WIN THEM BACK. - WELL, I MEAN, I'M A PRODUCT OF RURAL NEW ZEALAND ` BOTH SIDES OF MY FAMILY ARE FROM EKETAHUNA, AND THEY HAVE BEEN FOR GENERATIONS. I CARE VERY DEEPLY ABOUT RURAL NEW ZEALAND ` ALTHOUGH, ACCEPTED, SOME PEOPLE DON'T BELIEVE ME SOMETIMES, BUT I DO, VERY MUCH. AND ULTIMATELY, IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT IS DRIVING THE REFORMS, IT IS ABOUT THE LONG-TERM SUSTAINABILITY OF OUR RURAL COMMUNITIES. IN ESSENCE, THE ISSUE WITH THREE WATERS IS THAT OUR RURAL COUNCILS CAN'T AFFORD TO DO THE WATER WORK THEY NEED TO BY THEMSELVES, AND THEY SAY THAT THEMSELVES, AND ULTIMATELY, HE WAKA EKE NOA WAS A PROPOSAL THAT CAME FORWARD FROM THE SECTOR ITSELF, AND WE WERE GOING OUT ON CONSULTATION ON TWO AREAS WHERE THERE'S A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION. BUT THE WHOLE POINT OF THAT IS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE A SUSTAINABLE FARMING SECTOR MOVING FORWARD. - SURE. BUT YOU NEED TO BRING THEM WITH YOU. THAT'S WHY YOU'VE BEEN OUT TO VIRTUALLY EVERY RURAL AND PROVINCIAL COUNCIL ACROSS NEW ZEALAND. WHAT'S THE FEEDBACK YOU GOT THERE? WHAT ARE THE ISSUES THEY BROUGHT UP WITH YOU? - THE REASON I DID IT, FIRST AND FOREMOST, IS FOR` TWOFOLD. ONE, I WAS FOUR YEARS BEHIND OTHER MINISTERS IN BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS ` I KNEW THAT STRAIGHT AWAY; AND TWO, I WANTED TO GET MY HEAD AROUND THE PORTFOLIO AS QUICK AS POSSIBLE. AND IN AREAS WHERE I'M FROM, IF YOU WANT TO INTRODUCE YOURSELF, YOU DO IT FACE TO FACE. AND HONESTLY, IT WAS THE BEST THING I DID. SO 54 COUNCILS, WITH NO AGENDA, NO SET MESSAGE. I MADE THAT CLEAR RIGHT FROM THE GET-GO ` I'M HERE TO LISTEN TO THEM ON WHATEVER THEY WANT TO TALK ABOUT. - AND THAT WENT DOWN WELL WITH THE COUNCILS. WE'VE SPOKEN TO SOME OF THE MAYORS THAT YOU MEET WITH. THEY TELL US THAT YOU WERE GENUINE; THEY TELL US THAT YOU WERE LISTENING, BUT THEY'RE WORRIED THAT THERE'S A DISCONNECT AT THE CABINET LEVEL. SO YOU'VE TAKEN IN ALL OF THAT FEEDBACK; YOU'VE PASSED IT ON. IS THE LEADERSHIP LISTENING? - I THINK SO. I MEAN, WE'VE ALR` WE CAN POINT TO A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT HAVE COME OUT OF IT ALREADY. SO, IT WAS AFTER 21 COUNCILS, IF MY MEMORY SERVES ME RIGHT, THAT WE WERE LEADING INTO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT NEW ZEALAND CONFERENCE IN PALMERSTON NORTH. BY THAT STAGE, I'D GOT A PRETTY CLEAR FEEL THAT THERE WAS A LOT OF REFORM HAPPENING IN THE SECTOR AND THAT WAS PUTTING STRAIN ON THEIR WORKFORCE, AND SO THEY WANTED A BIT OF HELP WITH IT. SO AT THE CONFERENCE, WE WERE ABLE TO ANNOUNCE $44m TO HELP COUNCILS ATTRACT AND RETAIN STAFF. THAT CAME OUT DIRECTLY FROM THE FEEDBACK I WAS HEARING. WE'VE SET UP A MINISTERIAL OVERSIGHT GROUP JUST FOCUSED ON LOCAL GOVERNMENT REFORM ` THAT'S COME OUT OF` AS A RESULT OF THE TOUR; AND JUST LAST WEEK, I ANNOUNCED $10m TO HELP THOSE RURAL WATER SUPPLIERS THAT AREN'T AFFECTED BY THE THREE WATERS PROPOSALS TO HELP THEM MEET THE STANDARDS ` AGAIN, A DIRECT RESULT OF THE FEEDBACK I HEARD. - OK, BUT LET'S TAKE AN ISSUE LIKE WATER REFORM. ONE MAYOR TOLD US, 'OUR COMMUNITY SEES THREE WATERS AS A SWEAR WORD.' THAT CAN'T PROCEED IN ITS CURRENT FORM, CAN IT? - WELL, (SIGHS) THREE WATERS HAS BEEN USED AS A LABEL FOR WATER REFORM IN GENERAL. IF YOU BROKE THAT UP, I THINK YOU'D GET TWO ANSWERS. ONE ` IS WATER REFORM NEEDED? THE ANSWER WOULD BE YES. DO YOU LIKE THE GOVERNMENT'S THREE WATERS PROPOSAL? WELL, I GOT A MIXED RESPONSE WITH THAT ONE. BUT I THINK` - MIXED RESPONSE? I MEAN, 66 MAYORS WERE ELECTED IN OCTOBER ` NINE SUPPORT THREE WATERS; 43 ARE OPPOSED. SO YOU HAVEN'T BROUGHT THE COUNTRY WITH YOU ON THIS. ARE YOU OPEN TO CHANGING THAT? - WELL, THE PRIME MINISTER SAID SO HERSELF. AND SO THEY POINTED TO THE SELECT COMMITTEE PROCESS, AND CHANGES HAVE COME OUT OF` RECOMMENDED FROM THAT, AND THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE MINISTER HAVE SAID THAT THEY'RE GOING TO LOOK AT THOSE. - WHAT KIND OF CHANGES? - WELL, ULTIMATELY, I THINK IT BOILS DOWN TO A CONCERN ABOUT A DISCONNECT, OR A POTENTIAL DISCONNECT, BETWEEN LOCAL COMMUNITIES AND THE ENTITIES. THAT WAS CERTAINLY A COMMON THEME. UM, AND THE... THE WEIGHT IN WHICH THEY PLACED ON THAT VARIED BETWEEN COUNCILS, BUT THAT WAS CERTAINLY A COMMON THEME, AND I'VE FED THAT BACK. - SO WILL COUNCILS HAVE MORE SAY IN HOW THESE WATER ASSETS ARE MANAGED? - WELL, AS YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT MY PORTFOLIO, SO I CAN'T REALLY COMMENT SPECIFICALLY, BUT I HAD A SPECIFIC ROLE THAT I PRETTY MUCH GAVE MYSELF ` IS TO GO OUT, LISTEN TO THESE COMMUNITIES AND FEED THAT BACK, AND I'VE DONE THAT. I'VE MADE IT CLEAR THAT THESE COMMUNITIES NEED REASSURANCE THAT THEIR NEEDS WILL BE MET BY THESE ENTITIES. AND IF IT HASN'T BEEN BY CLEAR, THEN WE'VE GOT TO MAKE IT CLEAR. WE'VE GOT TO SPELL IT OUT. - IS IT ALSO YOUR ROLE TO TRY TO CONVINCE YOUR CABINET COLLEAGUES` WHO DO HOLD THE POWER HERE; YOU'RE OUTSIDE OF CABINET ` - (CHUCKLES) - IS IT YOUR ROLE TO CONVINCE THEM TO LISTEN TO RURAL NEW ZEALAND? - WELL, I CERTAINLY WANT TO PROVIDE THAT RURAL, PROVINCIAL PERSPECTIVE, BUT I DON'T ACCEPT THAT A RURAL, PROVINCIAL PERSPECTIVE IS AT ODDS WITH THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT. PART OF THE REASON I PUT MY HAND UP TO BE A LABOUR MP WAS BECAUSE I GENUINELY BELIEVE IT'S THE PARTY FOR RURAL NEW ZEALAND. BUT IN THIS INSTANCE, IT'S CLEAR THAT THERE IS A DISCONNECT BETWEEN THE OBJECTIVES OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS PUT FORWARD. BUT I DON'T THINK THAT` THAT'S NOT UNSURMOUNTABLE. I THINK THAT WE CAN FIND A WAY FORWARD HERE ` PARTICULARLY IF YOU RECOGNISE THAT OF THE 54 COUNCILS I VISITED, NONE OF THEM SAID THEY CAN DO THIS BY THEMSELVES AND THEY ALL AGREE THAT SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE. THAT'S A PRETTY POSITIVE START. - I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK OF THE STATE OF THAT RELATIONSHIP, THOUGH. I MEAN, FARMERS ARE TELLING US THAT THEY FEEL LIKE` THAT THEY ARE THE ENEMY; COUNCILS ARE TELLING US THEY FEEL LIKE THEY CAN'T BE TRUSTED. YOU ARE A RURAL GUY. - MM. - YOU'RE FROM THE WAIRARAPA. DO YOU THINK THAT RELATIONSHIP IS BROKEN BEYOND REPAIR? - NO, I DON'T. AND I CAN PROUDLY SAY THAT THIS GOVERNMENT HAS DONE SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS FOR THE RURAL SECTOR. IF YOU JUST TAKE AGRICULTURE ` I KNOW THAT WE GET LABELLED AS` YOU KNOW, THAT WE HATE THE SECTOR OR WE DON'T CARE ABOUT RURAL NEW ZEALAND; IT'S JUST` DOESN'T STACK UP. IF WE DIDN'T CARE ABOUT RURAL NEW ZEALAND, WE WOULDN'T HAVE EMBARKED ON A WORLD-FIRST PLAN TO GET RID OF MYCOPLASMA BOVIS ` HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO ACHIEVE THAT, AND WE'RE ON THE VERGE OF DOING IT. NO OTHER COUNTRY HAS DONE THAT. IF WE DIDN'T CARE ABOUT THE SECTOR, WE WOULDN'T HAVE DONE IT; WE WOULD'VE JUST ACCEPTED THE FACT THAT EVERY OTHER TRADING NATION THAT WE'VE GOT HAS MYCOPLASMA BOVIS, SO, 'ALL WE'RE DOING NOW IS BEING JUST LET THE REST OF THE WORLD.' WE DIDN'T. WE SAID, 'NO, WE CAN DO THIS,' AND WE BACKED THE SECTOR TO DO IT. - I WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR ROLE AS RACING MINISTER NOW. YOU'VE GIVEN THE GREYHOUND INDUSTRY AN ULTIMATUM ` THEY NEED TO IMPROVE ANIMAL WELFARE OR THEY COULD BE SHUT DOWN. HOW MUCH PROGRESS HAVE YOU SEEN? - OH, THERE IS SOME PROGRESS. NOT AS MUCH AS I'D LIKE. UM, BUT THEY WERE PUT ON NOTICE ROUGHLY 17 MONTHS AGO; I'M EXPECTING THE FINAL REPORT FROM THE RACING INTEGRITY BOARD IN A MATTER OF WEEKS, AND THE DECISION... WELL, ULTIMATELY, THE RECOMMENDATION THAT I PUT TO CABINET WILL BE HEAVILY INFLUENCED BY THAT REPORT. - COULD THE GREYHOUND RACING INDUSTRY STILL BE SHUT DOWN? - YES, IT COULD. IT IS AN OPTION, AND IT` THERE'S REALLY TWO OPTIONS. THE STATUS QUO IS JUST NOT GONNA BE ACCEPTABLE TO NEW ZEALANDERS, I DON'T BELIEVE, UM, AND I DON'T BELIEVE THE STATUS QUO IS GONNA BE ACCEPTABLE FOR MANY OF THE PARTICIPANTS WITHIN THE GREYHOUND INDUSTRY EITHER. - BECAUSE THE STATUS QUO IS` IT'S ALARMING, RIGHT? - YEAH. - WE'VE SEEN INSTANCES OF ANIMAL ABUSE ` WE'VE SEEN EXTENSIVE INJURIES; WE'VE SEEN GREYHOUNDS BEING GIVEN METHAMPHETAMINE. DO YOU THINK THERE IS A FUTURE FOR THAT INDUSTRY HERE? - THERE COULD BE. I'M NOT GONNA PRE-EMPT ANY DECISIONS HERE. I'D` LIKE, THIS IS A GENUINE PROCESS ` THEY'VE BEEN GIVEN 18 MONTHS, AND IT WOULD ONLY BE FAIR THAT WE LET THEM SEE THAT 18 MONTHS OUT. BUT WHEN I SEE THAT REPORT, I'LL BE LOOKING AT IT REALLY CAREFULLY. THIS IS A MASSIVE CALL. LIKE, BANNING ANY INDUSTRY IS A MASSIVE CALL, AND I REALLY FEEL SORRY FOR THE GOOD, DECENT PEOPLE THAT ARE PARTICIPATING IN THIS WHO'S` WHO'RE GONNA POTENTIALLY BE LET DOWN BY THE ACTIONS ` OR, INDEED, INACTION ` OF SOME OF THE PLAYERS IN THE INDUSTRY. BUT` I'M A MASSIVE RACING FAN; HUGELY PASSIONATE ABOUT IT, BUT ULTIMATELY, NO SPORT THAT USES ANIMALS CAN OPERATE WITHOUT A SOCIAL LICENCE, AND GREYHOUNDS ARE AT RISK OF LOSING THAT. THEY HAVE TO SHOW THAT, ONE, THEY RECOGNISE THAT AS IT CURRENTLY STANDS, IT'S NOT SUSTAINABLE; THEY NEED TO CLEARLY OUTLINE WHAT THEIR PLANS ARE AND WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO TO FIX IT, AND THAT WHEN THEY GET THERE, THAT GREYHOUND RACING CAN OPERATE IN A WAY THAT MEETS THEIR SOCIAL LICENCE. - I WANT TO GO BACK TO LOCAL GOVERNMENT FOR A MOMENT. IT IS LOSING ITS RELEVANCE. THAT'S CLEAR. TURNOUT IS GOING DOWN EVERY SINGLE YEAR. WE SAW THAT AT LAST MONTH'S ELECTIONS. WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN TO TURN THAT AROUND? - WELL` (SIGHS) LOCAL GOVERNMENT WILL ALWAYS HAVE A SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BUT WE ALSO NEED TO BE ABLE TO WORK WITH THEM, AS BOTH CENTRAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT, TO BE ABLE TO SHOW PEOPLE HOW IMPORTANT IT IS ` COS IT'S CRUCIALLY IMPORTANT TO THE COMMUNITIES. - CIVICS EDUCATION ` IS THAT THE ANSWER? - OH, PERSONALLY, I'M A MASSIVE FAN OF THAT. I THINK THAT, UM... - THAT WAS THE LABOUR POLICY IN 2017, THOUGH. SHOULDN'T THERE BE BETTER CIVICS EDUCATION BY NOW? - WELL, I-I REMAIN A FAN. I CAN'T SPEAK TO THE PRIORITIES OF THE EDUCATION MINISTER, AND THEY'VE BEEN` DONE A LOT OF STUFF IN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, AND OBVIOUSLY, YOU'VE GOT TO WORK THROUGH THE PRIORITIES LIST. BUT I HOPE TO SEE THAT COME IN, BECAUSE WE NEED EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY TO UNDERSTAND HOW IMPORTANT DEMOCRACY IS FOR US. WE'VE SEEN WHAT HAPPENS WHEN PEOPLE LOSE FAITH IN DEMOCRACY, AND IT'S GOT SOME PRETTY SEVERE RESULTS AROUND THE WORLD. WE DON'T WANT TO GO DOWN THAT TRACK. - YOU'VE HAD NEARLY SIX MONTHS IN THE ROLE OF MINISTER NOW. HOW WOULD YOU RATE YOUR PERFORMANCE IN THE JOB? - WELL, I HAVEN'T BEEN TOLD OFF YET, SO THAT'S GOT TO BE A GOOD THING. - IT'S A GOOD START. - YEAH, I` YEAH, IT IS. BUT, UM, THIS IS A HUGE PRIVILEGE. MASSIVE PRIVILEGE. I MEAN, LOOK, I REALLY WANTED TO BE MINISTER OF RACING. LIKE, HONESTLY, THIS IS AN INDUSTRY THAT'S SO IMPORTANT TO THE COUNTRY AND SO MISUNDERSTOOD AS WELL; PEOPLE JUST THINK THAT IT'S GOING DOWN TO THE RACETRACK AND HAVING A PUNT, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY A SIGNIFICANT EXPORT INDUSTRY, AND I WANT TO PLAY MY ROLE IN TRYING TO RAISE AWARENESS OF THAT AND SECURING IT FOR THE FUTURE. BUT I HAD NO AMBITIONS OF BECOMING A MINISTER, REALLY. THAT'S NOT` THAT'S OUT OF MY HANDS. SO TO HAVE BEEN ASKED TO BECOME ONE WAS MASSIVE. AND THEN OF EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT ` I DIDN'T EXPECT THAT, AND NOW THAT I'VE GOT IT, I'VE JUST QUICKLY BECOME REALLY PASSIONATE ABOUT IT, BECAUSE SEVERE WEATHER AND EARTHQUAKES AND TSUNAMIS, ETC., THEY CAN IMPACT ON ANY DISTRICT IN THE COUNTRY. AND WE'VE GOT A WORLD-LEADING CIVIL DEFENCE ORGANISATION IN THIS COUNTRY, AND SO TO BE THEIR MINISTER IS` IS` YEAH, IT BRINGS ME A LOT OF PRIDE, ACTUALLY. - YOU'RE ALSO A BIT OF A RISING STAR IN THE PARTY. THERE IS A CABINET RESHUFFLE COMING UP; ARE YOU THE NEXT MINISTER FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT? - WELL, I` (SIGHS) I WOULDN'T CONSIDER MYSELF A RISING STAR. I` IT... I THINK IF YOU'RE IN POLITICS AND YOU THINK OF YOURSELF LIKE THAT, YOU'RE NOT GONNA GET VERY FAR. - WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE? - I'VE` I'LL TAKE WHATEVER'S GIVEN TO ME. YOU KNOW, JUST TAKE EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT, FOR EXAMPLE ` I DIDN'T EXPECT THAT, I'VE BEEN GIVEN IT, AND NOW I'M REALLY PASSIONATE ABOUT IT, IN THE SPACE OF A FEW MONTHS. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, (SIGHS) YOU DON'T BUY A HOUSE AND THEN START LOOKING AROUND FOR ANOTHER ONE; YOU SETTLE AND YOU ENJOY YOURSELF, AND THEN IF THE OPPORTUNITY COMES UP, IT COMES UP. BUT AT THE MOMENT, I'M QUITE HAPPY. - ASSOCIATE MINISTER FOR LOCAL GOVERNMENT ` FOR NOW ` KIERAN McANULTY. - (CHUCKLES) - KIA ORA. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME. - CHEERS, MATE. - CHANGES TO THREE WATERS WERE ANNOUNCED LATE ON FRIDAY, AFTER THAT INTERVIEW WAS FILMED. THOSE CHANGES INCLUDE MORE SAY FOR RURAL COUNCILS, AND CO-GOVERNANCE WITH MAORI HAS BEEN RETAINED. - UP NEXT ` THE TRUMP-SUPPORTING AMERICAN EVANGELIST WHOSE STADIUM TOUR OF NEW ZEALAND STARTS TODAY. BILLY GRAHAM'S EVANGELICAL SON SAYS HE'S HERE TO SAVE THE UNSAVED. BUT DOES AOTEAROA WANT TO BE SAVED? HE IS AN AMERICAN EVANGELIST, A DONALD TRUMP SUPPORTER, AND HE HAS COME TO NEW ZEALAND TO 'SAVE THE UNSAVED'. - REVEREND FRANKLIN GRAHAM STARTS HIS THREE-STADIUM 'GOD LOVES YOU' TOUR TODAY IN CHRISTCHURCH. - IT RUNS IN THE FAMILY ` HIS FATHER WAS THE REVEREND BILLY GRAHAM, THE FAMOUS EVANGELIST WHO FILLED STADIUMS AND HAD THE EAR OF PRESIDENTS. - BUT FRANKLIN GRAHAM'S CRITICS SAY HIS PREACHING IS NOT RELEVANT TO AOTEAROA NEW ZEALAND. I ASKED HIM WHY HE HAS COME HERE. - (CHEERING, APPLAUSE) - WOW. WHAT A CROWD TONIGHT. AND SO WE'RE HERE WORKING WITH THE CHURCHES TO TELL PEOPLE ABOUT GOD. - FRANKLIN GRAHAM HAS ARRIVED TO CONVERT NEW ZEALAND. HE IS NOT THE FIRST. HIS FATHER, BILLY GRAHAM, AN IMMENSELY POPULAR EVANGELIST, PREACHED HERE IN THE '50s AND '60s TO PACKED VENUES. DO YOU THINK NOWADAYS THAT YOUR PREACHINGS ARE CULTURALLY UP TO DATE FOR AOTEAROA IN 2022? - UH, WELL, I'M NOT TRYING TO` TO BE UP TO DATE WITH CULTURE. I'M TRYING TO PREACH A MESSAGE THAT IS A 2000-YEAR-OLD MESSAGE, AND IT DOESN'T GO BY CULTURE. IT'S GOD'S WORD. - GRAHAM'S TOUR HAS BEEN COORDINATED BY 600 LOCAL EVANGELICAL CHURCHES. - AND I HONESTLY BELIEVE THAT WE WON THE SPIRITUAL LOTTO WHEN HE CHOSE US, BECAUSE HE'S COMING HERE; HE'S PAYING FOR EVERYTHING; HE'S NOT EVEN ASKING FOR AN OFFERING ` WE'VE GOT EVERYTHING TO GAIN AND NOTHING TO LOSE. - PROGRESSIVE CHRISTIANS NOT SO IMPRESSED. - I DON'T THINK HE HAS ANY RELEVANCY TO THE NEW ZEALAND CONTEXT. I DON'T THINK WE NEED SOMEONE COMING HERE WITH AMERICAN POLITICS DRESSED UP IN RELIGION. THAT'S JUST NOT THE KIND OF PEOPLE WE ARE AND NOT THE KIND OF RELIGION WE WANT TO FOLLOW. - FRANKLIN GRAHAM TRAVELS THE WORLD WITH HIS 'GOD LOVES YOU' TOUR. HE CALLS THAT HIS MESSAGE, BUT HE ALSO HAS PERSONAL VIEWS MANY DON'T AGREE WITH. SO, YOUR VIEWS ON ISLAM... I MEAN, YOU KNOW, AFTER 9/11` WHICH WAS AN HORRENDOUS ATTACK, BUT YOU CALLED ISLAM 'WICKED' AND 'EVIL', AND THEN IN 2010, YOU SAID TRUE ISLAM COULD NOT BE PRACTISED IN THE U.S. BECAUSE ` AND I QUOTE YOU ` 'YOU CANNOT BEAT YOUR WIFE OR MURDER YOUR CHILDREN.' I MEAN, DO YOU STILL HOLD THOSE VIEWS? - WELL, YOU'D HAVE TO ASK THE MUSLIMS IF THEY PRACTICE THOSE THINGS. I DON'T KNOW, UH, WHAT THEY DO HERE IN NEW ZEALAND. BUT MY MESSAGE IS NOT AGAINST THE MUSLIMS, AND WE LOVE THE MUSLIMS, AND WE INVITE THE MUSLIMS TO COME, AND I WORK IN MUSLIM COUNTRIES ALL OVER THE WORLD. - BUT USING THAT KIND OF DESCRIPTION OF TRUE ISLAM COULD BE SEEN AS OFFENSIVE TO THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY IN CHRISTCHURCH, WHICH DID SUFFER AN HORRENDOUS TERRORIST ATTACK. - THEY DID, AND` AND MY HEART GOES OUT TO THEM AND BREAKS FOR THEM. THAT WAS A TERRIBLE THING THAT HAPPENED HERE. - DO YOU STILL HOLD THOSE VIEWS, OR WOULD YOU RESCIND THOSE VIEWS? - WELL, NO, THERE'S SOME IN SOME PARTS OF THE WORLD THAT TRUE ISLAM CANNOT BE` (STAMMERS) MULTIPLE MARRIAGES, HONOUR KILLINGS AND THOSE KINDS OF THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN SOME COUNTRIES. - THE MUSLIMS IN CHRISTCHURCH WOULDN'T SAY THAT THAT IS TRUE ISLAM, WOULD THEY? - I` LISTEN, I'M NOT HERE TO DISCUSS ISLAM. - IS THERE ANY PLACE IN NEW ZEALAND FOR THAT KIND OF RHETORIC, GIVEN WHAT HAPPENED IN CHRISTCHURCH? - OH, NO. OF COURSE NOT. AND I'VE READ SOME OF THE KIND OF VALUES ON HIS` ON HIS WEBSITE FOR SAMARITAN'S PURSE, AND HE SAID` THEY SAY THERE THAT ALL PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT CHRISTIAN ARE CONDEMNED TO HELL. WELL, THAT'S JUST A RIDICULOUS MEDIEVAL OR EVEN PRE-MEDIEVAL KIND OF VIEW. I MEAN, NO ONE IN THE` IN THE PROGRESSIVE CHURCH WOULD EVER PREACH ABOUT HELL OR THAT ANYONE'S GOING THERE. AND I, UM` I OFTEN SPEAK WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE EXITING FROM THOSE CHURCHES AND WHO` IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO GET YOUR MENTAL HEALTH BACK WHEN YOU'VE BEEN TOLD THAT YOU ARE CONDEMNED TO HELL IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE CERTAIN THINGS. - FRANKLIN GRAHAM'S 'GOD LOVES YOU' TOUR IS NO STRANGER TO CONTROVERSY. IN THE UK, RAINBOW PROTESTERS CONVINCED VENUES TO CANCEL HIM. GRAHAM TOOK THOSE VENUES TO COURT AND WON. THEY DON'T FEEL INCLUDED IN YOUR PREACHINGS. YOUR PREACHINGS SEEM TO EXCLUDE THEM... - I-I` - ...BECAUSE YOU CALL THEM SINNERS. - I DO NOT MENTION THE LGBT COMMUNITY, AND I DON'T MENTION MUSLIMS IN MY PREACHING. NEVER HAVE. OK? BUT WHAT I DO IS PREACH THAT GOD MADE US MALE AND FEMALE AND THAT, UH` THAT GOD GAVE US SEX AND IT'S TO BE USED IN MARRIAGE BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN. THAT'S WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES. - WHAT DOES THE PROGRESSIVE CHRISTIANITY CHURCH SAY ABOUT THAT? - WE SAY THAT WE DON'T AGREE WITH THAT AND THAT WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT'S WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS, AND WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS, WHO WE FOLLOW, IS SOMEONE WHO'S ULTIMATELY INCREDIBLY INCLUSIVE AND EMBRACES EVERYONE AND WOULD NOT CONDEMN ANYONE TO A LIFE LACKING IN THEIR OWN HUMAN RIGHTS. - FRANKLIN GRAHAM IS ALSO NOT AFRAID TO GIVE HIS POLITICAL VIEWS. HE IS ANTI-ABORTION BUT SAYS IT'S UP TO EACH AMERICAN STATE TO DECIDE. - MY PERSONAL VIEW IS I BELIEVE LIFE BEGINS AT CONCEPTION. THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE. AND I THINK I HAVE A RIGHT AS A` AS A MINISTER OF THE GOSPEL TO SPEAK OUT ON THE MORAL ISSUES. - HE ALSO SUPPORTED DONALD TRUMP AND BELIEVES HE WAS TREATED UNFAIRLY BY THE MEDIA ` BUT ISN'T AN ELECTION DENIER. - I-I DON'T SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP'S BAD BEHAVIOUR. I DON'T SUPPORT HIS NAME-CALLING OF PEOPLE AND THOSE TYPES OF THINGS. BUT I DO SUPPORT HIS POLICIES. - SO IS HE RELEVANT TO NEW ZEALAND? LOCAL ORGANISERS HOPE GRAHAM SPARKS A POST-PANDEMIC BUMP IN NUMBERS. - I THINK THE CHURCHES ARE GETTING EXCITED ABOUT THAT. THEY SEE THAT AS AN OPPORTUNITY TO DRAW PEOPLE BACK INTO THE BUILDINGS, AS OPPOSED TO PEOPLE STARTING TO ENJOY CHURCH IN THEIR PYJAMAS, IN THEIR LOUNGE. - BUT HELEN JACOBI IS CONCERNED ABOUT THE MESSAGING'S EFFECTS ON THE WIDER CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY. - WE ALL GET BRANDED WITH THAT SAME IMAGE, YOU KNOW? I KNOW SOME PEOPLE IN MY CONGREGATION WOULD CAUTIOUSLY SAY TO SOMEONE NEW THAT THEY MET THAT THEY ARE A CHRISTIAN BECAUSE THEY FEEL THAT WHEN THEY SAY THAT WORD, PEOPLE ARE GOING TO ASSUME IT'S THE FRANKLIN GRAHAM BRAND OF CHRISTIANITY ` WHICH, OF COURSE, IS VERY TINY IN NEW ZEALAND, AND THERE'S PLENTY OF US WHO ARE PART OF A MUCH BROADER, MORE INCLUSIVE CHURCH. BUT WE` YEAH, WE GET BRANDED WITH THAT, UNFORTUNATELY. - FRANKLIN GRAHAM SAYS HE IS JUST SPREADING THE WORD OF GOD. THE CYNICS MIGHT SAY, 'ARE YOU COMING HERE TO MAKE MONEY, TO`?' - NO, I DON'T` I'M NOT PAID A... DO YOU HAVE PENNIES IN THIS COUNTRY? I DON'T KNOW WHAT` - NO, WE HAVE CENTS. - CENTS? OK. I DON'T GET A CENT ` NOTHING, FROM NOBODY. - SO YOU'RE HERE TO SAVE THE UNSAVED? - I'M HERE, UH, TO GIVE GOD'S MESSAGE, AND IT'S FREE OF CHARGE. - E WHAI AKE NEI ` ANCIENT MAORI HEALTH TREATMENTS, KNOWN AS RONGOA, ARE MAKING A COMEBACK. THEY'RE ALREADY FUNDED BY ACC. NEXT ` COULD THEY HELP FIGHT KAURI DIEBACK? A SPECIAL REPORT FROM OUR MAORI AFFAIRS REPORTER TE RINA KOWHAI. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. ANCIENT MAORI HEALTH TREATMENTS KNOWN AS RONGOA ARE MAKING A COMEBACK. - SINCE 2020, RONGOA HAS BEEN FUNDED BY ACC, WITH 110 REGISTERED PRACTITIONERS FROM KAITAIA TO RAKIURA, STEWART ISLAND. - MUCH MORE RESEARCH NEEDS TO BE DONE. BUT AS THE FIGHT AGAINST KAURI DIEBACK CONTINUES, PRACTITIONERS CLAIM THEIR INDIGENOUS TREATMENTS AREN'T JUST HEALING PEOPLE; THEY'RE CURING THE ANCIENT TREES. - OUR MAORI AFFAIRS REPORTER TE RINA KOWHAI HAS THIS EXCLUSIVE REPORT, FILMED BY NICK ESTELRICH. - TE RINA KOWHAI: THIS RARELY SEEN RITUAL IS THE FLENSING OF A WHALE, OR TOHORA, AND IN TE AO MAORI, ITS PASSING IS CONNECTED TO ANOTHER ANCIENT TAONGA ` THE KAURI TREE. (PUTATARA BLOWS) - SPEAKS TE REO MAORI: - ONE HOUR NORTH-WEST OF WHANGAREI, IN NORTHLAND, IS MOEREWA, AND AT ITS HEART IS OTIRIA MARAE, WITH ITS NEW CLINIC, HOHOU TE RONGOA. IT'S ONE OF THREE GOVERNMENT-FUNDED CLINICS IN THE MID-NORTH OFFERING RONGOA MAORI ` TRADITIONAL MAORI HEALTH CARE ` TO WHANAU IN THE AREA. THE MAN BEHIND IT IS TOHE ASHBY, ONE OF MANY TOHUNGA ` RONGOA EXPERTS ` REVIVING THESE ANCIENT PRACTICES IN MODERN AOTEAROA. - SPEAKS TE REO MAORI: - LOST THROUGH COLONISATION AND THE TOHUNGA SUPPRESSION ACT, AN ACT INTENDED TO STOP PEOPLE USING TRADITIONAL MAORI HEALING PRACTICES. - TOHE SPEAKS TE REO: - FROM CHILDHOOD, ASHBY WAS TAUGHT THE RIGHT PLANTS TO HARVEST AND HOW TO USE THEM TO TREAT SICK WHANAU. HIS OWN ANCESTOR WAS THE LAST TOHUNGA TO HOLD SACRED TEACHING SESSIONS NEAR WAITANGI BEFORE THE SUPPRESSION ACT MADE IT ILLEGAL IN 1907. OVER FOUR DECADES, ASHBY HAS SHARED HIS RONGOA MAORI KNOWLEDGE WITH HIS COMMUNITIES AND IWI ` SONG MASSAGE AND PLANT-BASED MEDICINES TO HELP MAORI RECONNECT AND RESTORE THEIR WELLBEING. - TOHE SPEAKS TE REO: - UNDERSTOOD THROUGH WHAKAPAPA ` GENEOLOGY ` THE GOD OF THE FOREST, TANE MAHUTA, CREATED THE FOREST AND BIRDS. TOHORA ` OR WHALES ` WERE THEN CREATED. THE WHALE REGARDED AS A YOUNGER BROTHER TO THE KAURI TREE. FOR MAORI, KAURI LIKE TANE MAHUTA, BEHIND ME, ARE REGARDED AS AN ANCESTOR. THIS ANCESTRAL TRADITIONAL BOND GOING BACK THOUSANDS OF YEARS, WITH MAORI HAVING AN INTERCONNECTED RELATIONSHIP WITH THE NATURAL WORLD AND ITS RESOURCES. PART OF WHY KAITIAKITANGA ` GUARDIANSHIP ` IS SO IMPORTANT FOR MAORI. - MAN SPEAKS TE REO: - THIS KAURI, BENEATH MOUNT MANAIA AT WHANGAREI HEADS, IS ESTIMATED TO BE A THOUSAND YEARS OLD, AND IT'S ONE OF 100 THAT ASHBY AND HIS COLLABORATOR ` TOHUNGA HORI PARATA OF NGATI WAI ` HAVE TREATED WITH RONGOA FOR FOUR YEARS, AND THEY CLAIM THE ANCIENT MEDICINE IS WORKING. - IN ENGLISH: - LIKE A TRADITIONAL FORM OF BLOOD AND BONE, OR SEAWEED FERTILISER, THE PAIR APPLIED A TOPICAL CREAM MADE OUT OF SPERM WHALE BONE AND SPERMACETI OIL TO THE BARK OF THE TREE. THEY COMPANION-PLANTED AND SPRAYED A TRADITIONAL MANUKA AND KANUKA RONGOA ON THE SOIL AROUND THE SICK KAURI. SCIENTISTS HAVE FOUND THAT FLAVONOIDS FROM KANUKA DO INHIBIT PHYTOPHTHORA, WHICH CAUSES KAURI DIEBACK. - EVERYONE TENDS TO THINK MANUKA IS THE MAGIC, BUT THAT WAS ACTUALLY KANUKA THAT WAS THE, UM` I GUESS THE DIRTY LITTLE SECRET. - THE RESULTS EMPHASISING THE VALUE OF USING MATAURANGA MAORI IN THE RESPONSE TO KAURI DIEBACK. (PUTARATARA BLOWS) AND THE GOVERNMENT IS LISTENING. THIS YEAR, BIOSECURITY NEW ZEALAND'S KAURI PROTECTION AGENCY, TIAKINA KAURI, ALLOCATED 32% OF ITS FUNDING DIRECTLY TO MANA WHENUA, AND FOR THE FIRST TIME, THE GOVERNMENT HAS ALLOWED THEM TO LEAD THE ON-GROUND SURVEILLANCE OF ALL KAURI LANDS. - WE BELIEVE WE HAVE THE RONGOA TO HEAL OUR KAURI. - JAYCEE TIPENE-THOMAS IS THE RONGOA MAORI LEAD FOR KAURI ORA, A NORTHLAND MANA WHENUA GROUP AIMED AT ERADICATING KAURI DIEBACK. - A FUNDAMENTAL PART OF KAURI ORA IS THE MATAURANGA AND RONGOA ASPECT OF IT, AND SO WE'VE HAD WANANGA ON EVERYTHING FROM, YOU KNOW, TE TIMATANGA RIGHT THROUGH TO TREATMENT AND MONITORING OF OUR KAURI USING RONGOA MAORI. - SO, IF THE CURE COMES FROM MATAURANGA, WELL, KEI TE PAI, YOU KNOW? IT'S GREAT. I DON'T` PERSONALLY, I DON'T CARE WHERE THE CURE COMES FROM. - MATAURANGA MAORI, OR INDIGENOUS KNOWLEDGE, HANDED DOWN INTERGENERATIONALLY ` KNOWLEDGE STEPHEN SOOLE SAYS WAS RECENTLY GIVEN EQUAL WEIGHTING BY BOTH DOC AND BIOSECURITY NEW ZEALAND. HE'S DOC'S OPERATIONS MANAGER FOR THE KAURI COAST. - I FEEL QUITE PRIVILEGED AND GRATEFUL TO ACTUALLY BE PART OF THE JOURNEY AND ACTUALLY TO HAVE, UM, IWI LEADING IN THAT SPACE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE INTRINSIC, UM, GENERATIONAL KNOWLEDGE, HAVING LIVED IN THE FOREST, AND UNDERSTAND THE FOREST INTIMATELY. (PUTARATARA BLOWS) - IT'S NOT JUST KNOWLEDGE OF THE FOREST THAT MAORI KNOW INTIMATELY, BUT THE SEA TOO. THIS IS A PRACTICE RARELY SEEN ` THE ANCIENT SUSTAINABLE TRADITION OF HARVESTING A DEAD WHALE FOR ITS BONE AND OIL. - MAN CALLS: TANE WHAKAPIRIPIRI, TANE TE WANANGA... - A PRACTICE SHROUDED IN MYSTERY THAT ` JUST LIKE THE KAURI AND TOHORA ` WAS ONCE COMMON BUT NOW FACES THE THREAT OF EXTINCTION. (PUTARATARA BLOWS) REMEMBER THE TRADITIONAL WHAKAPAPA STORY AND THE LINK BETWEEN KAURI, TOHORA AND PEOPLE? BROTHERS ON LAND BEFORE THE WHALE MOVED INTO THE SEA. MILLENIA ON, PARATA SAYS IT STILL FEELS LIKE LOSING A FAMILY MEMBER. - SPEAKS TE REO MAORI: - ALL IN TE REO: - PUHIWAI RANGI ` THE NAME GIVEN BY LOCAL IWI NGATI HEI, OF MERCURY BAY, NAMED AFTER THE LANDS ON WHICH THE 16m SPERM WHALE WASHED ASHORE ` THE FIRST ONE SEEN ON THESE TRIBAL LANDS IN A CENTURY. REGARDED AS A GIFT FROM TANGAROA, THE GOD OF THE SEA, THE SPERM WHALE RETURNING TO HIS PATERNAL HOMELAND, TO HIS BROTHER KAURI AND TANE MAHUTA, THE GOD OF THE FOREST. - TANGAROA HAS GIFTED US THIS. YOU KNOW, WE CAN SORT OF... YOU KNOW, CARRY ON CUSTOMARILY AND CULTURALLY. HUGELY SIGNIFICANT FOR US ALL. - THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT` OUR TWO PARADIGMS. TO THEM, IT'S JUST A WHALE; TO US, IT'S A WHANAUNGA. - THE BLUBBER IS FLENSED DOWN INTO WORKABLE PIECES TO BE RENDERED DOWN TO OIL; THE SPERMACETI ` OR WAXY SUBSTANCE INSIDE THE SPERM WHALE'S HEAD ` COLLECTED AND RENDERED INTO A HIGH-GRADE OIL, LIQUID GOLD, CLAIMED TO HAVE MEDICINAL PROPERTIES AND USED IN RONGOA. - I MAKE CREAMS AND UTILISE OTHER RONGOA, AND IT PRESERVES MY RONGOA LONGER. - THE SPERMACETI IS MIXED WITH CRUSHED WHALEBONE AS THE TOPICAL CREAM USED TO TREAT SICK KAURI. BLAKE TE KATA IS A NEW GENERATION OF MATAURANGA MAORI AND RONGOA PRACTITIONERS. GUIDED BY BOTH PARATA AND ASHBY, HE SAYS HE HAS FOUND HIS CALLING. - IT'S` YOUR CHEMIST IS YOUR NGAHERE. YOUR NGAHERE IS YOU. - SINCE 2017, THE GOVERNMENT HAS COMMITTED $100m TO COMBAT KAURI DIEBACK. BUT FOR THESE RONGOA MAORI PRACTITIONERS, IT'S NOT ABOUT RESOURCES; IT'S ABOUT RESTORING THE KAURI THROUGH ANCIENT PRACTICES AND KAITIAKITANGA ` GUARDIANS OF THE KAURI AND THE WHALE. - WHALE OIL IS NOT THE SUM TOTAL OF THE MEDICINE; THE MEDICINE IS WHANAUNGATANGA. THE MEDICINE IS AROHA. YOU KNOW, ALL OF THOSE THINGS THAT WE'RE MEANT TO BE PRACTISING ` THAT'S KAITIAKI O NGA TAONGA TUKU IHO. - TE WHATU ORA ` THE MINISTRY OF HEALTH ` IS CONSIDERING AN INCREASE IN FUNDING FOR NORTHLAND RONGOA CLINICS AND EXPANSION INTO AREAS NOT SERVICED. IT IS ALSO WORKING WITH THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY ON A THERAPEUTIC PRODUCTS BILL THAT IT SAYS WILL PROTECT RONGOA MAORI FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS. - TOHE SPEAKS TE REO: - STAY WITH US. WE ARE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. - WAIHAPE MAI ` WELCOME BACK. I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL ` NBR SENIOR JOURNALIST MARIA SLADE, AUT ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR DR ELLA HENRY AND FORMER NATIONAL STAFFER ` NOW WORKING IN PR ` BEN THOMAS. TENA KOUTOU. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. HATE SPEECH ` LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT. CHRIS WILSON'S INTERVIEW ` HE SAID THERE ARE UNPRECEDENTED LEVELS AND SPILLING OVER INTO THE REAL WORLD. BUT THIS IS REALLY TRICKY, ISN'T IT? - YEAH. - TRICKY FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO DO THIS. - YEAH. LOOK, PEOPLE ARE GETTING CRAZIER AND WORSE. THERE'S NO ARGUING THAT. THAT'S... YOU KNOW, DENYING THAT REALITY IS NOT THE REASON TO NOT PROCEED WITH HATE SPEECH RULES. THE REASON TO BE VERY, VERY CAUTIOUS IS THAT THERE IS POTENTIAL FOR MASSIVE OVERREACH. THERE IS SO MUCH VAGUENESS ABOUT WHAT WOULD BE USED AS` YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD QUALIFY AS INCITING HATRED. WHAT WE DESPERATELY WANT TO AVOID IS SITUATIONS OVERSEAS WHERE WE'VE SEEN, BASICALLY, SOCIAL MEDIA TRENDS BECOME ENFORCEABLE POLICE MATTERS. - BUT SO, THAT BALANCE, THOUGH, ELLA ` VERY TRICKY. AND I THINK CHRIS WILSON SAID, 'GOOD ON THE GOVERNMENT FOR TRYING TO DO IT,' BUT OUR PROBLEM LAST TIME WAS THAT IT WAS SO VAGUE THAT THEY'VE HAD TO COME BACK AND HAVE ANOTHER GO AT IT. - I DO THINK CONSULTATION IS IMPORTANT, BUT` AND RECENTLY, I'VE RAISED THE IRE OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE BECAUSE I DARED TO SUGGEST THAT, UM, PROFESSOR RICHARD DAWKINS MIGHT BE INACCURATE IN HIS ASSUMPTION MATAURANGA MAORI IS MYTH... - RIGHT. - ...RATHER THAN SCIENCE. AND I MADE A COMMENT, AND, UM... AS I SAID, RAISED THE IRE OF A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF PEOPLE. WHAT WAS INTERESTING` - SO YOU'RE SAYING YOU GOT A LOT OF HATE, RIGHT? - TEENY TINY LITTLE BIT OF HATE. - (LAUGHTER) - ONLINE? - ONLINE, OBVIOUSLY. THIS SO I DO GET A SENSE THAT IS A REAL AND TANGIBLE THING IF YOU HAPPEN TO BE THE VICTIM OF PEOPLE EXPRESSING THAT ANGER YOU SPOKE OF, BEN, BUT I THINK ALSO THE CONSULTATION'S GOING TO BE A CRITICAL COMPONENT MOVING FORWARD. WE CAN'T ACT QUICKLY ON THIS, BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT TRANSFORMING SOCIETY. - THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS HERE. I MEAN, ONE IS` SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE THE EXISTING LEGISLATION ALREADY PROHIBITS HARASSMENT AND INCITEMENT, AND NOW ARDERN IS SAYING SHE WANTS CONSENSUS, AND NATIONAL ARE SAYING, 'WELL, WE DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THEY'RE NECESSARY.' SO IS THERE A WAY FORWARD? - I THINK ONE OF KIRI ALLAN'S BIGGEST CHALLENGES IS GOING TO BE COMMUNICATING EXACTLY WHAT IT IS THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO DO. I MEAN, IT ALL WENT BADLY WRONG WHEN KRIS FAAFOI WAS OVERSEEING IT, AND THERE WAS THAT WHOLE DISCUSSION ABOUT IF YOU CALLED SOMEONE A KAREN, COULD YOU BE POSSIBLY CAUGHT UNDER THE NEW LEGISLATION? AND HE SORT OF PREVARICATED AND SAID, 'WELL, MAYBE.' YOU KNOW, AND THAT BRINGS IN ALL YOUR FREE-SPEECH SORT OF BRIGADE AND THE OVERREACH THAT BEN IS DISCUSSING. - YEAH. - SO` - OVERREACH COULD LEAD TO A BACKLASH. - OF COURSE IT COULD. - CHRIS WILSON TALKED ABOUT THAT AS WELL. - YES. WE HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN ENOUGH DETAIL OF EXACTLY WHAT IT IS THEY WANT TO DO. BUT WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE CURRENT LEGISLATION DOESN'T COVER RELIGION, DOESN'T COVER GENDER, DOESN'T COVER, YOU KNOW, SEXUAL ORIENTATION, THAT WOULD SEEM TO ME, AS AN ORDINARY NEW ZEALANDER, TO BE QUITE AN OVERSIGHT. - AND THAT COULD BE WHERE THEY'RE GOING WITH THIS LEGISLATION. WE'LL HAVE TO WAIT AND SEE UNTIL THE DETAILS COME OUT NEXT WEEK. LET'S TALK JACINDA ARDERN, THOUGH ` SHE'S OFF TO THE EAST ASIA SUMMIT AND THEN APEC. SHE HAS BEEN OUT OF THE COUNTRY A LOT. HAS IT BEEN WORTHWHILE FOR THE NEW ZEALAND TAXPAYER? - OF COURSE. - IT HAS? - SHE IS THE PRIME MINISTER. SHE IS WITHOUT A DOUBT THE NUMBER ONE AND THE BEST AMBASSADOR FOR NEW ZEALAND TO THE WORLD. YOU WOULD NOT BE WANTING TO SEND SUBORDINATES. YOU KNOW, SHE'S THE FRANCHISE. THIS IS HER JOB, AS PRIME MINISTER, WHERE` AS SHE SAID IN HER INTERVIEW, OUR REGIONAL INTERESTS ARE VERY UNSETTLED RIGHT NOW. THE AREAS WHERE WE TRADITIONALLY OPERATE, THE THINGS THAT WE DEPEND ON, WHICH IS A RULES-BASED WORLD ORDER, ARE UNDER MORE THREAT THAN EVER BEFORE. YOU KNOW, IT'S ABSOLUTELY PROPER. YOU KNOW, I THINK EIGHT WEEKS IS A SMALL INVESTMENT. - A SMALL INVESTMENT. THE ONE THING THAT COULD HAPPEN, ELLA, IS THAT SHE COULD MEET PRESIDENT XI OVER THERE. THAT WOULD BE AN INTERESTING CONVERSATION. - WELL, WE'VE, OBVIOUSLY, HAD SOME TROUBLE IN RECENT MONTHS IN TERMS OF THE PERCEPTIONS OF NEW ZEALAND AND CHINA. SO IT WOULD BE GREAT, I THINK, IF THEY WERE ABLE TO SIT DOWN EYE TO EYE AND HAVE A CONVERSATION. BUT TO ECHO BEN'S SENTIMENTS, I THINK IT'S REALLY CRITICAL ` MANA, THE MANA THAT SHE BRINGS TO THESE GATHERINGS AS OUR PRIME MINISTER... - BUT DOES THAT`? - ...AND HOW WELL-REGARDED SHE IS. - DOES THAT MANA TRANSLATE TO DOLLARS, MARIA? - WELL, SHE HAS MADE THE COMMENT HERSELF THAT WITH THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS THAT SO MANY COUNTRIES ARE NOW EXPERIENCING, PROTECTIONISM IS NOW BECOMING A THING ` WHICH WOULD BE BAD NEWS FOR A COUNTRY LIKE NEW ZEALAND, WHO'S A MAJOR FOOD EXPORTER. SO WE DEFINITELY NEED HER OUT THERE, BANGING THE DRUM. AND SHE IS THE STAR. LOOK, I HEARD A STORY JUST RECENTLY OF A BUSINESS MISSION TO NEW YORK ` OCCURRED JUST WHEN THE QUEEN DIED. SO THE PRIME MINISTER WAS SUPPOSED TO ATTEND ALL THESE EVENTS BUT HAD TO GO TO LONDON. THEY HAD ALL THIS MEDIA LINED UP; THEY ALL PULLED OUT WHEN JACINDA WASN'T GOING TO BE THERE, BECAUSE SHE'S THE STAR OF THE SHOW. - OK. WELL, LET'S MOVE ON TO THE POLLS THIS WEEK, THEN. JACINDA ARDERN WAS SAYING THE NEWSHUB-REID RESEARCH POLL, WHICH SHOWED LABOUR GONE DOWN TO 37%, SHE'S SAYING, 'I'M TAKING THAT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT.' SHOULD SHE? - YEAH, LOOK, FAIR ENOUGH IN THIS CASE. THERE WERE` THEY SAID THEIR INTERNAL POLL DID NOT LINE UP. THERE WAS A TAXPAYER UNION POLL THIS WEEK, LATER THIS WEEK, WHICH SHOWED THINGS A BIT CLOSER. WE'VE REACHED A BIT OF A HOLDING PATTERN WHERE NATIONAL AND ACT ARE NUDGING HEAD OF LABOUR AND THE GREENS ` UM, CERTAINLY WON'T BE COMFORTING FOR THE GOVERNMENT. THEY'LL BE LOOKING TO BREAK OUT OF THE TROUBLES THEY HAVE HAD AND REALLY GET SOME KIND OF FOCUS ON COST OF LIVING ` WHICH IS BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE TO VOTERS. - IT SEEMS TO BE THE ONLY PHRASE JACINDA ARDERN IS UTTERING AT THE MOMENT ` 'COST OF LIVING'. - (CHUCKLES) - YEAH, I JUST WONDER WHETHER, MARIA, THAT CHRIS LUXON SHOULD BE THINKING, 'I SHOULD BE A LITTLE BIT FURTHER AHEAD THAN I AM,' GIVEN THE CURRENT ECONOMIC SITUATION. - YEAH, I COULD SEE THAT THEY WOULD BE FRUSTRATED. YOU KNOW, THE POLLS HAVE BEEN CONSISTENT IN RECENT TIMES. THEY` UM, NATIONAL, ACT ` HOWEVER YOU WANT TO PUT THE PAIRING TOGETHER ` THEY'RE JUST INCHING FORWARD AND INCHING FORWARD, BUT DOESN'T SEEM TO TRANSLATE TO CHRIS LUXON'S POPULARITY. IT` I DON'T KNOW WHAT HE NEEDS TO DO. I THINK HE` HE JUST NEEDS TO, I DON'T KNOW, GET A BIT MORE FORCEFUL SOMEHOW, JUST SAY A FEW MORE INTERESTING THINGS, JUST BE A BIT OUT THERE. I MEAN, THE PRIME MINISTER` - DO YOU THINK HE'S A BIT BLAND? - A BIT BLAND, MAYBE. - A BIT BLAND? - THE PRIME MINISTER IS VERY CLEVER AT THIS GAME OF POLITICS, AND CHRIS IS IN CHIEF EXECUTIVE MODE, SHALL WE SAY. - RIGHT. SO, ELLA, WHAT WOULD CHRIS LUXON HAVE TO DO TO GO FROM CHIEF EXECUTIVE TO POTENTIAL PRIME MINISTER? - I MEAN, THE REALITY IS HE IS WHAT HE IS. YOU KNOW, HE IS A WHITE MAN WHO PROJECTS A VERY SPECIFIC IMAGE OF A CERTAIN AGE, AND THE REALITY IS OUR ELECTORATE, OUR CONSTITUENCY, IS GETTING YOUNGER, AND SO IF YOU CANNOT FIND A WAY TO SPEAK TO THAT GENERATION ` WHICH I THINK JACINDA DOES VERY WELL, BECAUSE SHE IS PART OF IT ` THEN MAYBE HE NEEDS TO BRING IN THE TEAM THAT HELPED... I DON'T KNOW, TRANSFORM PREVIOUS PRIME MINISTERS FROM BEING MORE BLAND CHARACTERS. - I THINK AT THE SAME TIME, YOU KNOW, HE SHOT UP TO VERY` PRETTY HIGH PREFERRED PM RATING FOR AN OPPOSITION LEADER. TRADITIONALLY, THE OPPOSITION LEADER WILL BE MAGNITUDES LOWER THAN THE PRIME MINISTER, JUST BECAUSE PUBLICITY, STATUS QUO, BIAS. BUT IN THE ELECTION YEAR, THERE WILL BE MUCH MORE FOCUS ON THE TWO OF THEM. NOW, THAT WILL BE WHAT LABOUR IS COUNTING ON ` THAT JACINDA WILL BE ABLE TO PULL CLEAR OF LUXON... - RIGHT. - ...IN A TWO-HORSE RACE. LUXON WILL THINK, 'WELL, 'I'LL BE GETTING THE SAME KIND OF LEVEL OF MEDIA ATTENTION, 'ACTUALLY, THAT WILL, AS IT TENDS TO DO, 'IMPROVE MY STANDING IN THE PREFERRED PM RATINGS.' - RIGHT. OK. SO HANGING ON FOR NEXT YEAR. THERE ARE COUPLE OF THINGS LABOUR IS TRYING TO GET OUT OF THE WAY BEFORE NEXT YEAR. WE'RE GOING TO TALK THREE WATERS. BEN, I CAN'T TALK TO YOU BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT A CONFLICT OF INTEREST, BUT, MARIA ` KIERAN McANULTY HAS BEEN OUT THERE TRYING TO WOO THE COUNCILS. THREE WATERS HAS CHANGED A LITTLE BIT, BUT THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING ABOUT THE CO-GOVERNANCE ISSUE AND THEY'VE GIVEN RURAL COUNCILS MORE OF A SAY. IS THAT GOING TO WOO THE RURAL CONSTITUENCY BACK TO LABOUR? - I WOULD HAVE TO SAY NO. THEY HATE IT. THEY REALLY DO. AND I THINK THE CHANGES THAT WERE ANNOUNCED YESTERDAY ARE NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH. RIGHTLY OR WRONGLY, THE CO-GOVERNANCE IDEA IS JUST NOT WASHING WITH THAT RURAL HEARTLAND, IF YOU LIKE, AND THE GOVERNMENT IS HELLBENT ON IT. THEY ARE IDEOLO` AND, LOOK, WE ALL AGREE THERE NEEDS TO BE WATER REFORM, DEFINITELY, BUT THEY ARE GOING FOR THE ROLLS-ROYCE SOLUTION, AND YOU DO WONDER IF THERE COULDN'T BE SOME MORE PRACTICAL STRUCTURES THAT THEY COULD BRING INTO PLACE TO GET IT ACROSS THE LINE. - OK. ELLA, I'VE NOTICED THE GOVERNMENT HAS STEERED AWAY FROM THE PHRASE IN RECENT CONVERSATIONS ABOUT IT. WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THAT? I MEAN, IT'S STILL THERE IN THE PROPOSED LEGISLATION, BUT THEY ARE NOT USING IT IN TERMS OF THEIR LANGUAGE. - I'M MAORI, SO I HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN CO-GOVERNANCE... - YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. YEAH, SURE. - ...BECAUSE I THINK THIS COUNTRY AS A NATION WAS FORMED ON THE IDEA OF CO-GOVERNANCE. THAT'S WHAT THE TE TIRITI SPOKE ABOUT. AND THERE ARE NUMBER OF EXAMPLES OF IT WORKING VERY EFFECTIVELY ` CROWN FORESTRY RENTAL TRUST; THE RACING INDUSTRY WORKING WITH GOVERNMENT ` HAS ITS OWN MINISTER. I WORRY THAT THE REASON PEOPLE FEAR CO-GOVERNANCE IS BECAUSE THERE IS AN UNDERLYING FEAR STILL OF MAORI, AND THAT SADDENS ME A GREAT DEAL, BECAUSE UNLESS WE CAN WORK OUT HOW TO OPERATE MORE EFFECTIVELY TOGETHER, THE FUTURE BEGINS TO LOOK BLEAKER FOR ALL THOSE ANGRY PEOPLE OUT THERE. - BACK TO HATE SPEECH, WHICH WE'LL HAVE MORE ON NEXT WEEK. THANK YOU SO MUCH TO OUR PANEL ` MARIA SLADE, ELLA HENRY AND BEN THOMAS. AND THAT IS ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING ` NGA MIHI NUI. WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY JESSIE PURU AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. 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