TENA TATOU KATOA, I AM REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M FINN HOGAN. NAU MAI, WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAM TODAY, IS OUR EDUCATION MINISTER AMBITIOUS ENOUGH FOR OUR CHILDREN? SHAMUBEEL EAQUB ON THE 400,000 NEW ZEALANDERS BEHIND ON THEIR LOAN REPAYMENTS. AND IS QUEENSLAND'S FLOOD RESPONSE GOOD ENOUGH TO MODEL OUR OWN ON? CAPTIONS BY KITTY WASASALA AND MAEVE KELLY. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 OUR TOP STORY THIS MORNING ` WHAT IS GOING ON WITH ATTENDANCE IN OUR SCHOOLS? WELL, THE RESEARCH IS CLEAR THAT STAYING IN SCHOOL IS ASSOCIATED WITH BETTER HEALTH, BETTER MENTAL HEALTH, RELATIONSHIPS, JOBS AND INCOMES. SO WHY IS THE EDUCATION MINISTER'S STATED GOAL 70% OF KIDS GOING TO SCHOOL 90% OF THE TIME? I ASKED JAN TINETTI WHETHER WE HAVE AN ATTENDANCE CRISIS IN OUR SCHOOLS. WE KNOW THAT ATTENDANCE HAS BEEN DROPPING SINCE 2015, AND WE KNOW THAT WE HAVE TO PUT A STOP TO THAT, SO I... HAVE BEEN WORKING LEADING THE STRATEGY THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS PUT IN PLACE AROUND THIS. JUST COMING BACK TO THE QUESTION ` IS IT A CRISIS, MINISTER? WHAT I'M SAYING` YOU DON'T WANT TO CALL IT A CRISIS? BUT IT DOES LOOK LIKE ONE. I THINK WE WERE HEADING THAT WAY. BUT I'M EVEN GOING TO PUT A STAKE IN THE SAND AND SAY THAT WE'VE MADE IMPROVEMENTS, AND I FEEL THAT WE'RE BACK ON TRACK AGAIN. I THINK` I WILL SAY I DO THINK WE WERE HEADING THAT WAY... OK. ...BUT I THINK WE'VE STOPPED IT BEFORE WE GOT THERE. WE'VE HIT ROCK BOTTOM; WE'RE ON OUR WAY BACK UP? YEAH. YEAH. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE SIZE OF THE PROBLEM. THE DATA IS OFTEN REPORTED HERE IN PERCENTAGES, BUT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE RAW NUMBERS, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE CHILDREN, AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THE CHILDREN BEHIND EACH ONE OF THESE NUMBERS. ACCORDING TO THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION, WE HAVE TWO REALLY WORRYING GROUPS. THEY ARE 93,000 KIDS ATTENDING SCHOOL LESS THAN 80% OF THE YEAR AND A HARDCORE GROUP OF 95,000 CHILDREN WHO ARE ATTENDING SCHOOL LESS THAN 70%. SO THEY'RE MISSING OVER A TERM A YEAR. WHERE ARE THEY, MINISTER? FIRST OF ALL, THE NUMBERS CAN BE REALLY MISLEADING, BECAUSE THE WAY THAT THAT IS BEING REPORTED, THERE'S A WHOLE LOT THAT SITS UNDER THAT. SO WHEN YOU'RE` THESE ARE YOUR OWN NUMBERS. YES, AND THAT'S WHY I JUST WANT TO EXPLAIN THOSE NUMBERS, BECAUSE WHEN WE TALK IT, IT WORKS OUT` SO HOW MUCH IS IT? SO, LET'S WORK THAT OUT. IT IS, UH... THREE` WELL, IT WILL BE, ACTUALLY ` IT'S THREE WEEKS A TERM THAT THEY'RE MISSING. SO IT'LL BE` SO THAT IS 12 WEEKS? YES, SO IT IS OVER A TERM. SO IT'S THREE WEEKS OF TERM THAT THEY'RE MISSING. NOW, THINK ABOUT THAT WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CHRONIC NON-ATTENDERS... YEAH. AND YOU HAD TWO MEMBERS OF YOUR FAMILY THAT WERE ISOLATING FOR COVID, AND SO YOU ISOLATED WITH THEM IN THOSE INITIAL PERIODS LAST YEAR, AND YOU HAD ONE WEEK OF YOUR OWN ISOLATION ` THAT'S HOW YOU BECOME A CHRONIC NON-ATTENDER. NOW` HANG ON` BUT MINISTER, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT 12 WEEKS OF SCHOOLING HERE... YEAH` ...AND IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE DEFENDING... NO, NO, NO. I'M NOT. ...THAT LEVEL OF ABSENCE. I'M ABSOLUTELY NOT DEFENDING IT. WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT THE COVID YEARS HAVE ACTUALLY EXACERBATED THE ISSUE OF WHAT WE'VE SEEN. I KNOW THAT WE HAVE TO TURN THAT AROUND, BUT WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE FACT THAT WE'VE GOT JUSTIFIED AND NON-JUSTIFIED THERE, AND I WANT PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THAT ` THAT WHEN YOU GET PEOPLE WHO SAY, 'OH, IT'S OK TO TAKE KIDS AWAY 'FOR A HOLIDAY,' THAT'S A NON-JUSTIFIED ABSENCE ` LET'S PUT A STOP TO THAT; LET'S WORK TOGETHER TO PUT A STOP AROUND THOSE THINGS. WE CAN'T... WE CAN'T FIND THE ANSWER FOR THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE AWAY SICK, BUT WE CAN SUPPORT THEM IN THEIR LEARNING. YEAH, AND THOSE 95,810 KIDS WHO ARE ATTENDING LESS THAN 70%, MISSING 12 WEEKS OF SCHOOL A YEAR... YEAH. ...I DON'T THINK FALL INTO THAT CATEGORY, MINISTER. SO WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW FOR THOSE CHILDREN? WELL, I` AND IF WE PUT THOSE TWO GROUPS TOGETHER... CAN WE JUST STOP THERE FOR A MOMENT? BECAUSE AGAIN, THAT DATA IS CONFUSING. YOU'RE PUTTING THAT OVER THE WHOLE YEAR. WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 95,000, THAT'S OVER ONE TERM. SO OVER THE ENTIRE YEAR` SO THAT'S ONE TERM, BUT IT'S NOT THE WHOLE YEAR. THOSE FIGURES ARE FROM THE ONE TERM. SO HOW MANY ARE THERE MISSING OVER THE YEAR? SO THEY MIGHT BE JUST IN THAT 95,000 FOR THAT ONE TERM, BUT THE NEXT TERM, THEY MIGHT BE REGULARLY ATTENDING. THAT'S WHY THE DATA IS IMPORTANT, THAT WE DON'T JUST` WELL, THE DATA IS BAD, MINISTER. I KNOW. I KNOW. SO WHAT ARE YOU DOING ABOUT THAT? SO THAT'S WHY WE HAVE THE ATTENDANCE AND ENGAGEMENT STRATEGY, AND WE'VE PUT THAT IN PLACE ` WE'VE PUT A LOT OF RESOURCING INTO IT, WE'VE PUT REGIONAL RESPONSE FUNDS, WE'RE PUTTING MONEY INTO THE ATTENDANCE SERVICE, BUT WE'RE ALSO CREATING NEW POSITIONS AROUND GETTING YOUNG PEOPLE BACK AND ENGAGED IN THEIR LEARNING. AND WE ARE SEEING THE DIFFERENCE, BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT THE UNJUSTIFIED NUMBERS ARE TRENDING DOWN. FROM 2019, WE'RE NOW SEEING A LOWERING ACROSS ALL OUR MEASURES IN THE UNJUSTIFIED ATTENDANCE, AND THAT GIVES ME HOPE THAT WE'RE STARTING TO TURN THIS BIG SHIP AROUND. OK. AND I WANT TO TALK ABOUT TURNING THIS BIG SHIP AROUND, BECAUSE IT IS... YEAH. ...TRANSFORMATIVE WORK, IF YOU GET IT RIGHT. WE'VE HAD AN ANNOUNCEMENT LAST WEEK OF 82 MORE ATTENDANCE OFFICERS, WHICH, GIVEN THE SIZE OF THIS PROBLEM ` WHICH WE KNOW... YEAH. ...IS NOT GOOD. YEAH. LET'S AGREE ON THAT. THAT DOES NOT SEEM LIKE A LOT. THIS JOB IS WORKING WITH SCHOOLS TO WORK ON THE MODERATE ABSENCES SO THAT THEY DON'T FALL INTO THAT CHRONIC GROUP. GOT IT. SO WHAT HAPPENS`? SO HOW MANY KIDS ARE THEY RESPONSIBLE FOR, THESE 82 OFFICERS WORKING ON THE MODERATE GROUP? HOW MANY KIDS ARE THEY RESPONSIBLE FOR IN THAT CATEGORY? SO, THEY WON'T BE RESPONSIBLE DIRECTLY FOR KIDS ` ALTHOUGH THEY MIGHT; SCHOOLS MIGHT WANT THEM TO GO INTO HOMES AND WORK WITH THOSE HOMES ` BUT THEY'LL BE DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE TO THE SCHOOLS FOR HELPING THEM DEVELOP THEIR STRATEGIES AND ACCESSING THE RIGHT RESOURCES TO WORK WITH THOSE KIDS. THAT SOUNDS, MINISTER, TO ME, LIKE MORE BUREAUCRACY. DON'T WE NEED BOOTS ON THE GROUND HERE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES, GETTING TO THOSE FAMILIES AND THOSE CHILDREN? MANY OF THOSE SCHOOLS ARE TELLING ME THAT THEY'VE GOT BOOTS ON THE GROUND. AGAIN, I WAS TALKING TO A PRINCIPAL YESTERDAY WHO WAS TELLING ME ABOUT THE INITIATIVES THAT THEY'VE PUT IN PLACE, BUT THIS WILL HELP WORK WITH` THAT THEN` WITH THEM TO DECIDE THAT THOSE INITIATIVES ARE WORKING WELL OR WHETHER THEY ARE... WHAT ELSE THEY CAN BE ADOPTING. BUT HAVING SAID THAT, THAT'S NOT TO STOP THE FACT THAT THOSE PEOPLE CAN'T GO OUT. THEY ARE ATTENDANCE OFFICERS, AND SO THEY HAVE THE ABILITY THROUGH LEGISLATION TO BE ABLE TO GO OUT AND WORK DIRECTLY WITH THE FAMILIES THAT ARE NEEDED. BUT THIS, TO ME, SOUNDS LIKE MORE OF THE SAME, MINISTER. THIS DOESN'T SOUND TRANSFORMATIVE. THIS IS VERY TRANSFORMATIVE. SO, LOOK, I WAS A SCHOOL PRINCIPAL. PRIOR TO 2013, I USED TO BE ABLE TO CONTACT MY ATTENDANCE SERVICE AND SAY, 'I'VE GOT THIS YOUNG PERSON THAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT ` 'THEY'RE ONLY TURNING UP HERE` OR THEY'RE TURNING UP MOST WEEKS, 'BUT WE'RE STARTING TO SEE A BIT OF A FRINGE IN THEIR ATTENDANCE. 'WE CAN'T QUITE GET TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT'S GOING ON HERE. 'COULD YOU DO IT?' AND THE ATTENDANCE SERVICE WOULD BE ABLE TO BE PROACTIVE, GO THERE; WE COULD TURN IT AROUND WITHOUT ANY HASSLE, REALLY. YEAH. WHAT HAPPENED IN 2013? ALL GONE ` THEY COULD ONLY WORK WITH THOSE CHRONIC ABSENTEES. YEAH, BUT NOW WE'VE GOT TENS OF THOUSANDS OF KIDS THAT NEED THIS HELP, AND WE'VE GOT 82 OFFICERS. YEAH, SO THEY'RE NOT WORKING WITH THOSE KIDS. THOSE ARE THE CHRONIC ABSENTEEISMS. SO WHAT WE'RE ALSO` BUT THE NUMBERS ARE LARGER FOR THAT OTHER GROUPS. YEAH, SO WHAT WE'RE ALSO DOING ` AND WHAT PEOPLE HAVE MISSED IN THE ANNOUNCEMENT ` IS THAT WE'RE ALSO GIVING A SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN FUNDING TO THE ATTENDANCE SERVICE AS WELL, BACKED UP BY WHAT WE PUT INTO THE ATTENDANCE SERVICE LAST YEAR AS WELL. WE ABSOLUTELY KNOW THAT THE ATTENDANCE SERVICE HAS TO BE RESPONSIVE TO THOSE GROUPS. THEY ARE NOT THE ONLY GROUPS IN SOCIETY THAT ARE RESPONSIVE TOO. WE HAVE COMMUNITY CENTRES THAT HAVE CONTRACTS THAT WORK IN THAT AREA THROUGH OTHER ORGANISATIONS. WE HAVE` THIS IS A COMMUNITY RESPONSE. THESE ISSUES ARE SO COMPLEX, THAT WE'RE DEALING WITH, THAT WE NEED A WHOLE-OF- COMMUNITY RESPONSE HERE; IT'S NOT JUST ON THE ATTENDANCE SERVICE. BUT WE HAVE BROUGHT THAT ATTENDANCE SERVICE BACK CLOSER TO SCHOOLS. IN MANY CASES, WE'VE GOT THEM WORKING WITH THE ALTERNATIVE EDUCATION PROVIDERS.... YES. ...AND THAT IS MAKING A BIG DIFFERENCE. MINISTER, IS THE GOVERNMENT TOO SOFT ON THIS? BECAUSE IN OTHER COUNTRIES, A STUDENT WHOSE ATTENDANCE FALLS BELOW THAT 90%, THEY ARE CALLED CHRONICALLY ABSENT; THAT'S UNACCEPTABLE THERE, AND THERE ARE MANDATED SORT OF PROCESSES THAT KICK IN AT THAT TIME FOR THAT CHILD AND THAT FAMILY. WHY NOT HERE? WELL, WE ACTUALLY ARE DOING THE INTERVENTION, BUT IT'S A WRAP-AROUND INTERVENTION. WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT THE NON-ATTENDANCE CAN BE AS A RESULT OF MANY, MANY COMPLEX FACTORS. SO THERE'S NOT GOING TO BE ONE SOLUTION THAT'S GOING TO MAKE THAT DIFFERENCE, SO WE HAVE TO DO THAT. WE HAVE THE ABILITY... SO` ...TO BE PUNITIVE IF NEEDED TO BE PUNITIVE, BUT ACTUALLY, INTERNATIONAL RESEARCH AND LOCAL RESEARCH SHOWS THAT THAT DOES NOT SOLVE THIS ISSUE, SO WE HAVE TO HAVE A RANGE OF SOLUTIONS. SO WHAT HAPPENS RIGHT NOW IF I'M A KID AND I'M NOT TURNING UP TO SCHOOL OR I'M TURNING UP TO SCHOOL LESS THAN 70% OF THE TIME? WHAT HAPPENS WITH ME? SO, WHAT WOULD HAPPEN` LET'S GO BACK TO MY SCHOOL ` WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH THAT KID THAT HAPPENED` CAME INTO MY SCHOOL, AND WE KNEW THAT THEY WERE ATTENDING LESS THAN 70% OF THE TIME. FIRST AND FOREMOST, WE WOULDN'T GET TO THAT POINT. AND FIRST AND FOREMOST, MOST SCHOOLS WOULDN'T GET TO THAT POINT. THEY WOULD BE MAKING CONTACT WITH THE SCHOOL. IN FACT, THIS WEEK` BUT MINISTER, PLENTY OF KIDS ARE IN EXACTLY THAT POSITION. ABSOLUTELY. SO THEY WILL WORK REALLY, REALLY HARD TO MAKE CONTACT, AND WHEN THEY CAN'T MAKE CONTACT, THAT'S WHEN THEY WILL MAKE THE REFERRAL THROUGH TO THE ATTENDANCE SERVICE. AND WHAT DOES THE ATTENDANCE SERVICE DO, THEN? SO, THEY'RE` DO THEY GO AND KNOCK ON THOSE DOORS? THE ATTENDANCE SERVICE MIGHT GO AND KNOCK ON THE DOORS; THEY MIGHT GO AND SEE IF THEY CAN FIND OUT OTHER INFORMATION ABOUT THOSE FAMILIES; THEY MIGHT SEE IF THEY'VE` OTHER PLACES WHERE THOSE KIDS MIGHT HANG OUT; THEY MIGHT GO TO THOSE COMMUNITY CENTRES THAT ARE OUT IN THE COMMUNITY TO ASK WHAT THEY KNOW ABOUT THE YOUNG PERSON. THIS IS A WRAPAROUND. WE DO KNOW` WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU GET NO RESPONSE? WHEN THEY GET NO RESPONSE, THAT'S WHEN THEY RATCHET UP TO ANOTHER LEVEL. SO WE ARE PUTTING IN MORE FUNDING IN THIS LATEST ANNOUNCEMENT FOR A COMPLETE WRAPAROUND ` SO GETTING THE HEALTH SERVICES IN, GETTING THE DIFFERENT PARTS` SOCIAL WORKERS, ALL OF THOSE DIFFERENT SERVICES THAT CAN MAKE A WRAPAROUND RESPONSE TO THAT YOUNG PERSON. SO THAT HAPPENS RIGHT NOW? THAT'S WHAT WE'RE` IT DOES HAPPEN, BUT WE'VE ACTUALLY INCREASED THOSE NUMBERS RIGHT NOW. BECAUSE IT'S NOT HAPPENING ENOUGH? IT'S NOT HAPPENING ENOUGH. MINISTER, ARE YOU BEING AMBITIOUS ENOUGH IN THIS AREA, DO YOU THINK? YOUR STATED GOAL IS 70% OF KIDS GOING TO SCHOOL 90% OF THE TIME BY NEXT YEAR, WHICH IS STILL TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN MISSING OUT ON THEIR EDUCATION, AND WE KNOW THAT STAYING IN SCHOOL IS ASSOCIATED WITH BETTER HEALTH... YEAH. ...BETTER MENTAL HEALTH, BETTER RELATIONSHIPS, JOBS, INCOMES AND LIFE OUTCOMES. YEAH. DON'T WE NEED MORE THAN JUST ATTENDANCE OFFICERS AND BETTER DATA? SO, THE 70% OF THE TIME IS OVER A TERM, AND AGAIN, THAT'S WHAT IT WAS BEFORE IT STARTED TO SLIP. WE'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO 75% IS WHERE WE'RE HEADING TO. THAT INCLUDES SICKNESS. MINISTER, IT'S` SO` THAT INCLUDES SICKNESS. AND I KNOW THAT THIS IS` IT DOESN'T SOUND AMBITIOUS AT ALL, MINISTER. IT'S SO IMPORTANT. SO` CAN I JUST PUT THIS TO YOU? SO, IF YOU'VE GOT YOUR CHILD AND YOU WANT YOUR CHILD TO BE AT SCHOOL 100% OF THE TIME, BUT THEY'RE SICK AND THEY'VE GOT COVID, SO THEY HAVE A WEEK OFF, SO THEY'RE` AUTOMATICALLY, THEY'RE NOT REGULARLY ATTENDING SCHOOL. MINISTER, YOU SHOULD BE SHOOTING FOR 100%, 100% OF THE TIME. I WANT EVERY KID AT SCHOOL EVERY SINGLE DAY. BUT I ALSO` OR ENGAGED IN THEIR LEARNING, I SHOULD SAY. BUT` SO PUT THAT DOWN AS THE GOAL. BUT I'M ALSO REALISTIC TO KNOW THAT YOUNG PEOPLE GET SICK, YOUNG PEOPLE NEED TO STAY AT HOME WHEN THEY'RE SICK. AND WE WANT TO SEND THAT MESSAGE TOO, BECAUSE WE DO NOT WANT THEM ATTENDING` JUST LIKE WE DON'T WANT PEOPLE ATTENDING IN THE WORKPLACE WHEN THEY'RE SICK, WE DON'T WANT THEM ATTENDING SCHOOL WHEN THEY'RE SICK. BUT THE BIG... THE BIG WORD, AGAIN, THAT GETS MISSED IN THAT STRATEGY IS` IT'S ATTENDANCE AND ENGAGEMENT. LET'S GET THEM ENGAGED IN THEIR LEARNING 100% OF THE TIME. YES, BUT THEY HAVE TO ATTEND TO BE ENGAGED. NOT NECESSARILY. I DO WANT THEM ATTENDING ` I WANT THEM, ABSOLUTELY, ATTENDING ` BUT 'ENGAGEMENT' IS THAT BIG WORD, AND I WANT THEM ENGAGED 100% OF THE TIME. THAT MEANS WHEN THEY'RE AT HOME, THEY ARE EXCITED ABOUT LEARNING ` THEY WANT TO GET BACK TO SCHOOL; WHEN THEY'RE SICK, THEY WANT TO BE BACK THERE ` THAT'S THE PLACE WHERE THEY WANT TO BE. IT IS A GREAT PLACE TO BE. WE KNOW WE CAN DO IT. I KNOW I DID IT ON A MICRO-LEVEL AT MY SCHOOL; I KNOW WE CAN DO IT ON A MACRO-LEVEL ACROSS THIS COUNTRY. WELL, GREAT, BECAUSE I THINK THE COUNTRY IS VERY TUNED IN TO THE RESULTS OF THE WORK THAT YOU'RE DOING. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, MINISTER JAN TINETTI. THANK YOU. STAY WITH US FOR OUR POLITICAL PANEL ` EFESO COLLINS AND PAULA BENNETT IN THE STUDIO. PLUS ` CAN'T PAY YOUR RENT, MORTGAGE OR CREDIT CARD? SHAMUBEEL EAQUB ON WHAT TO DO IF YOU'RE STRUGGLING WITH DEBT, AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. OK, SO SOME NEW FIGURES THIS WEEK WHICH GIVE INSIGHT INTO HOW KIWIS ARE DOING AS THE COST OF LIVING AND PERSISTENT INTEREST RATE INCREASES CONTINUE TO BITE. CREDIT MONITORING BUREAU CENTRIX SAYS AROUND 430 NEW ZEALANDERS ARE BEHIND ON AT LEAST ONE LOAN PAYMENT, IT'S A FIGURE PREDICTED TO KEEP RISING THIS YEAR. SENSE PARTNERS ECONOMIST SHAMUBEEL EAQUB IS WITH ME NOW, AND SHAMUBEEL, THERE WILL BE SOME REAL STRESS AND ANXIETY BEHIND THOSE NUMBERS FOR THOSE PEOPLE, WON'T THERE? YEAH, I MEAN ` 430,000 NEW ZEALANDERS. THAT'S A HELL OF A LOT OF PEOPLE. AND WE'RE NOT EVEN COUNTING ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT IN THE NUMBERS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T ACCESS CREDIT. SO THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF STRESS, RIGHT? WE'VE HAD COVID, WE'VE HAD EXTRAORDINARY INCREASES IN THE COST OF LIVING, PARTICULARLY FOOD AND FUEL, AND THINGS LIKE RENT IN THE PROVINCES, AND NOW WE'VE HAD THE FLOODS AND THE CYCLONE, SO WE HAVE A WHOLE BUNCH OF STUFF THAT'S ALREADY HAPPENED, AND WE'VE ALSO GOT INTEREST RATE INCREASES TO COME OVER THE NEXT 12 MONTHS, AS PEOPLE RE-FINANCE. THERE'S A LOT OF STRESS IN THE COMMUNITY, AND WE KNOW THAT FINANCIAL STRESS COMPOUNDS THE STRESSES IN PEOPLE'S LIVES. AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A HUGE AMOUNT OF FINANCIAL TRAUMA THAT'S ACCUMULATING AND TURNING INTO PRESSURE COOKER. YEAH, WE'RE EXPERIENCING RIGHT NOW. AND, I SUPPOSE, ON TOP OF THAT, THIS IS A WHOLE GROUP OF PEOPLE EXPERIENCING FINANCIAL PRESSURE. THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE CREDIT, AS YOU SAID. TOTALLY. SO I MEAN, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE IN DISTRESS. AND UNFORTUNATELY, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT'S NOT SOLVED EASILY. THERE'S THE PEOPLE WHO ARE, YOU KNOW, STRUGGLING, AND THOSE PEOPLE ARE REALLY STRUGGLING A LOT. PREVIOUSLY, THE PEOPLE WHO WE'D HAVE THOUGHT THEY WERE DOING OKAY ARE NOW DOING IT TOUGH, TOO. BECAUSE THE SUPERMARKET SHOP IS SO EXPENSIVE, BECAUSE THE PETROL IS SO EXPENSIVE, BECAUSE THE MORTGAGE PAYMENTS HAVE GONE UP. THERE'S JUST NOT MUCH LEFT AT THE END OF THE WEEK ANY MORE. SO IF YOU THINK ABOUT, ALSO, THE INTEREST RATE INCREASES THAT ARE COMING AS PEOPLE RE-FINANCE, EVEN A HOUSEHOLD ON 200K WILL FIND THAT IT'S PROBABLY NOT GOT MUCH LEFT AT THE END OF THE WEEK. WHAT IS THAT LIKE FOR PEOPLE? BECAUSE IF YOU'RE IN A HOUSEHOLD WHICH HAS AN INCOME OF 200K, THAT IS A HUGE PSYCHOLOGICAL SHIFT, ISN'T IT? OH, I MEAN, IT'S A GOOD INCOME. THE AVERAGE HOUSEHOLD INCOME IN NEW ZEALAND IS 100,000. SO IF YOU GETTING 200,000 AND YOU'RE STILL STRUGGLING, IMAGINE WHAT IT'S LIKE WITH ALL THOSE OTHER PEOPLE THAT ARE DOING IT FAR HARDER THAN YOU. BUT ALSO, THERE'S THIS KIND OF LOSS OF DIGNITY, AND THERE'S THIS EXTRAORDINARY STRESS OF BEING ABLE TO KIND OF ADMIT THAT YOU'VE GOT A PROBLEM. IT'S REALLY, REALLY HARD. SO WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL THE RESEARCH, AND THE EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE POOR AND ARE EXPERIENCING CREDIT DISTRESS, THE MOST OVERWHELMING SENSE IS SHAME AND HOPELESSNESS. AND THE REALITY IS, IT'S NOT JUST THAT, RIGHT? THERE'S OTHER REASONS WHY YOU'VE GOT INTO THIS ISSUE. IT'S THE ISSUE OF NOT HAVING ENOUGH MONEY, BUT SOMETIMES IT'S ALSO BECAUSE YOU'VE GOT OTHER FAMILY EVENTS. FOR POOR PEOPLE, THE MOST COMMON REASON WHY THEY FALL INTO TROUBLE IS BECAUSE THE BLOODY CAR STOPPED. MM. AND NOW YOU HAVE TO GET A BIG LOAN, AT A VERY EXPENSIVE RATE, TO BUY AN OVEPRICED CRAPPY CAR. SO THE CYCLE COMPOUNDS, AND YOU FEEL HOPELESS BECAUSE YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF THIS TRAP. YOU NEED THE CAR TO WORK, YOU NEED THE CAR TO BE ABLE TO DO THOSE THINGS. SOCIETY'S TELLING YOU THAT THESE ARE THE THINGS YOU DO TO BE SUCCESSFUL. BUT THE MORE YOU DO IT, THE MORE IT HURTS. YEAH, IT IS, AS YOU SAY, IT'S A SPIRAL, ISN'T IT? A LOT OF PRESSURE, A LOT OF STRESS. AND THIS IS NOT HOW IT IS SUPPOSED TO GO, IS IT? I'M THINKING NOW ABOUT THIS GROUP ` MORTGAGE HOLDERS, FOR EXAMPLE, GETTING ON TO THE PROPERTY LADDER IS REALLY HARD. SAVING THAT DEPOSIT IS REALLY HARD. AND IT'S ALSO A WAY, ONCE YOU'RE THERE, THAT KIWIS BUILD WEALTH, BUT THAT IS NOT THE EXPERIENCE OF MANY OF THESE PEOPLE RIGHT NOW. YEAH, AND LOOK, IT IS THE PEOPLE WHO BORROWED VERY RECENTLY, AND VERY EXPENSIVE, VERY LARGE MORTGAGES ` SO NOT EVERYBODY. SO THOSE PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN ON THE MARKET FOR A LONG TIME ARE PROBABLY OK, BUT THERE IS A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT GOT INTO THE MARKET RECENTLY WHEN INTEREST RATES WERE 2.5%, HOUSE PRICES WERE EXTRAORDINARILY EXPENSIVE, AND NOW THAT THEY'RE COMING UP TO RE-FINANCE TWO YEARS LATER, THEY'RE GOING TO GO FROM 2.5 TO 6.5, AND YOU KNOW WHAT? IT'S GOING TO HURT LIKE HELL. MM. AND THERE IS THIS REAL SHOCK, RIGHT? YOU'VE STRUGGLED AND STRUGGLED TO MAKE IT ONTO THIS LADDER, AND SO ALL OF A SUDDEN THIS LADDER TURNED INTO A SNAKE. YEAH, IT IS EXTRAORDINARY, AND I'M JUST THINKING AS WELL THAT HOUSE PRICES, AT THE SAME TIME, IN MANY PLACES, ARE FALLING, WHICH IS A COMPOUNDING... PART. SO IT AFFECTS YOUR WEALTH AND YOUR WELL-BEING, BECAUSE YOU KNOW THAT YOUR FINANCIAL SITUATION IS GETTING WORSE ` NOT ONLY CAN YOU NOT AFFORD THE WEEKLY PAYMENTS, BUT THE ASSET THAT YOU PAID SO MUCH FOR IS WORTH LESS. SO IT MIGHT BE THAT YOUR EQUITY, YOUR SAVINGS, IN THE PROPERTY HAS VANISHED ALL OF A SUDDEN. IT'S THAT FINANCIAL STRESS, AND IT'S THAT SENSE OF DISLOCATION. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T TALK ABOUT MONEY IN NEW ZEALAND, RIGHT? I WAS GOING TO SAY, WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THIS STUFF, DO WE? YOU KNOW, REALLY, THAT'S NOT IN OUR CULTURE. IT'S NOT. AND WE'RE GENERALLY A REPRESSED CULTURE IN NEW ZEALAND ANYWAY. BUT CERTAINLY, WHEN IT COMES TO` WE DON'T KNOW THE FINANCIAL HEALTH OF EACH OTHER AT ALL. IT'S TABOO, RIGHT? WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT. AND SO THERE'S A REAL PROBLEM THERE BECAUSE THAT COMPOUNDS THAT REASON WHY PEOPLE FEEL SHAME AND HOPELESSNESS, BECAUSE QUITE OFTEN, IF YOU ASK FOR HELP EARLY ENOUGH, YOU CAN GET ON TOP OF IT. IF YOU GO AND TALK TO YOUR BANK, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, THEY WILL HELP YOU. IF YOU NEED REAL HELP, YOU CAN GO TO A BUDGETING SERVICE, YOU CAN GO TO YOUR FINANCIAL MENTOR, OR DEBT SOLUTIONS PROVIDER. THERE ARE LOTS OF WAYS YOU CAN MANAGE THIS. IT'S NOT WITHOUT HOPE, BUT QUITE OFTEN WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS PEOPLE WITH VERY SMALL AMOUNTS OF LOANS, BECAUSE THEY FEEL SO HOPELESS ` THEY'LL SHUT THE CURTAINS SO THEN THE DEBT COLLECTOR WON'T SEE THEM. THEY'LL GET ISOLATED, AND THAT FESTERS AND FESTERS AND FESTERS. I'VE TALKED TO PEOPLE WHO'VE CONSIDERED SELF-HARM FOR TINY AMOUNTS OF MONEY. IT MAY BE 5000 OR $10,000. YOU LIFE IS WORTH MUCH MORE THAN THAT. BUT IT BECOMES BIG, DOESN'T IT? SO HOW DO WE CHANGE THAT? PARTLY, I THINK, THIS IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY, IN THE SENSE THAT THERE IS A CRISIS, WE ARE GOING TO SEE MORE PEOPLE STRUGGLING, AND NOT JUST PEOPLE WHO FEEL LIKE THEY'RE AT THE BOTTOM OF THE HEAP. IT IS ALSO PEOPLE WHO WE THOUGHT WERE OKAY. AND IT'S OKAY TO ASK FOR HELP. ALL THE STUFF THAT WE'VE DONE WITH MENTAL HEALTH, YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOTTA SCALE IT UP. BECAUSE MENTAL HEALTH IS JUST ONE ASPECT OF ALL THE PRESSURES THAT WE FACE, AND FINANCIAL PRESSURE'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS. IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT FINANCIAL LITERACY. NO, YOU CAN'T TEACH PEOPLE JUST THE TOOLS. WE'VE GOT TO HELP PEOPLE, BECAUSE QUITE OFTEN, WE JUST NEED SOMEBODY TO SUPPORT US. YEAH, AND WE'RE NOT GREAT AT THAT IN OUR SCHOOLING SYSTEM. WE WEREN'T, ANYWAY, WHEN I WAS GOING THROUGH SCHOOL, SO WHAT CAN PEOPLE DO WHO ARE FINDING IT TOUGHER AND TOUGHER AND HARDER TO MAKE ENDS MEET? WHO ARE AT THE START OF THIS CYCLE, I SUPPOSE? LOOK ` ASKING FOR HELP. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW WHAT, PEOPLE WANT TO HELP. THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO CAN HELP. YOUR LENDER IS REQUIRED BY LAW TO HELP YOU, BUT ALSO, WE HAVE A LOT OF INDEPENDENT SERVICES THAT CAN HELP. YOUR LOCAL CITIZENS ADVICE BUREAU IS A GREAT PLACE TO GO, BECAUSE THEY WILL CONNECT YOU UP WITH THE RIGHT PLACE. WE KNOW THERE ARE DEBT SOLUTION SERVICES THAT ARE EXCELLENT IF YOU'RE IN REALLY BIG TROUBLE. WE KNOW THAT MOST OF THE BANKS HAVE DEBT RESOLUTION SERVICES. THERE ARE WAYS` GO TALK TO YOUR FINANCIAL MENTORS, BECAUSE THEY ARE REALLY GREAT. YES THEY ARE UNDER A LOT OF PRESSURE, WE SHOULD FUND THEM MORE, AND ALL THOSE THINGS, BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE DOING AMAZING WORK EVERY SINGLE DAY. BUT IT'S A SERVICE FOR EVERYONE WHO NEEDS HELP. AND PEOPLE, I SUPPOSE... IT'S NICE FOR THEM TO HEAR THAT THEY ARE NOT ALONE. IF IT'S OVER 400,000 NEW ZEALANDERS THAT ARE EXPERIENCING THIS IN A COUNTYRY OF FIVE MILLION PEOPLE, YOU ARE NOT ON YOUR OWN. WE KNOW THAT A LOT OF NEW ZEALANDERS TODAY NEED HELP, FOR EVERYTHING FROM THEIR HOUSING TO PAYING FOR THEIR KIDS, RIGHT? WHAT'S EXTRAORDINARY TO ME, THAT WE HAVE 1/4 OF NEW ZEALAND HOUSEHOLDS THAT RECEIVE SOME SORT OF HOUSING SUBSIDY, YOU KNOW, BASIC HUMAN RIGHT. 1/4 OF NEW ZEALAND HOUSEHOLDS REQUIRE SOME SORT OF HELP FROM THE REST OF NEW ZEALAND TO PUT A SHELTER OVER THEIR HEAD. WHAT AN EXTRAORDINARY SITUATION TO BE IN. YOU ARE NOT ALONE. AND YOU CAN ASK FOR HELP AND THE HELP IS THERE. THOSE SERVICES NEED TO SCALE UP A LOT, AND I MEAN A LOT, BUT THE HELP IS THERE. IT IS SO GOOD TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS. IT'S SOMETHING WE DON'T TALK ABOUT ENOUGH. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING ON THE PROGRAM, SHAMUBEEL EAQUB. PLEASURE. COMING UP NEXT ` IS QUEENSLAND'S FLOOD RESPONSE GOOD ENOUGH FOR US TO MODEL OUR OWN ON? AND YOU MIGHT NOT EXPECT THIS FROM NEWSHUB NATION, BUT TODAY, WE'RE DELIVERING A LOVE STORY. THAT'S IN BACKSTORY, AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK. OUR CYCLONE GABRIELLE RECOVERY TASKFORCE IS BASED PARTLY ON QUEENSLAND'S RESPONSE TO REPEATED FLOODS. SO HOW GOOD IS THEIR MODEL? ENVIRONMENTAL HISTORIAN MARGARET COOK IS AN EXPERT ON HOW HUMAN BEHAVIOUR CAUSES FLOOD HAZARDS AND AUTHOR OF A BOOK ON THE HISTORY OF FLOODING IN BRISBANE. I ASKED HER WHAT THE STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES OF QUEENSLAND'S FLOOD RESPONSE ARE TURNING OUT TO BE. LOOK, IT'S DONE REALLY WELL. IT'S BETTER THAN WE'VE HAD BEFORE. AFTER THE 2011 FLOOD WE HAD, WE DIDN'T HAVE ANY SUCH SCHEME TO THIS SCALE. SO THIS IS A REALLY ENCOURAGING START BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO BE LOOKING AT BUYING BACK 500 HOUSES ROUGHLY, AND WE'RE ALSO LOOKING AT SOME DESIGN DIFFERENCES. SO IT'S REALLY GOOD. THE PROBLEM IS IT'S A GREAT START, AND IT'S ONLY GOING TO MAKE A SMALL DIFFERENCE TO A SMALL NUMBER OF PEOPLE. BUT WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE. WELL, YEAH, ON THAT ` BECAUSE THE FUND, AS IT EXISTS, HAS FUNDING FOR 500 HOMES TO BE BOUGHT BACK, BUT THOUSANDS OF HOMES HAVE BEEN DESTROYED. IT SEEMS LIKE A MASSIVE SHORTFALL. YEAH, IT IS. BUT AS I SAID, WE HADN'T DONE IT BEFORE. SO WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO NOW IS MOVE THE MOST VULNERABLE. AND THAT'S A PROBLEM, BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE THE PLACES THAT GET FLOODED THE MOST FREQUENTLY AND THE WORST. SO IT'S A START, BUT THERE WILL BE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T QUALIFY, AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM FOR THE SCHEME, AND IT'S VERY DISAPPOINTING FOR ALL THOSE PEOPLE WHO MISS OUT. AND EVEN FOR SOME WHO DO EVENTUALLY HAVE THE HOME BOUGHT BACK, YOUR HOME HAS TO BE ASSESSED BEFORE IT CAN BE BOUGHT BACK. WHAT KIND OF CONDITIONS ARE PEOPLE LIVING IN WHILE THEY WAIT FOR THEIR HOME TO BE ASSESSED? WELL, SOME PEOPLE ARE LIVING IN AN ABSOLUTELY APPALLING CONDITIONS. AND THAT'S A REALLY BIG PROBLEM, BECAUSE PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THE SCALE OF THIS FLOOD. AS YOU MENTIONED, WE HAVE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AFFECTED ` A SCENARIO THAT NEW ZEALANDERS WILL BE, UNFORTUNATELY, EQUALLY FAMILIAR WITH. SO THE TASK OF GETTING AROUND TO ASSESS ALL OF THESE HOUSES TAKES A REALLY LONG TIME, AND PEOPLE ARE TRAUMATISED AND TRYING TO MAKE VERY DIFFICULT DECISIONS. THEY'RE TRYING TO NEGOTIATE WITH THEIR INSURERS, IF THEY'VE GOT THEM, AND THAT'S TAKING A REALLY LONG TIME. AND WE'VE GOT AN INCREDIBLE SHORTAGE OF BUILDERS, AGAIN, BECAUSE OF THE SCALE AND GETTING BUILDING MATERIALS. SO PEOPLE ARE LIVING IN SQUALOR IS THE REALITY. SOME PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY CAMPING IN THEIR HOUSES. SOME PEOPLE ARE SURROUNDED BY MOULD OR NO WALLS AT ALL. YOU KNOW, THEY'RE JUST LIVING IN SHELLS OF HOUSES, AND IT'S VERY BAD FOR YOUR MENTAL HEALTH. WELL, ON THAT MENTAL HEALTH ASPECT, IS THERE ANY MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT BEING OFFERED TO SUPPLEMENT THE ECONOMIC SUPPORT? YEAH, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THEY DID DO WITH THE QUEENSLAND RECONSTRUCTION AUTHORITY IS RECOGNISE THE HUMAN DIMENSION REALLY EARLY. SO THEY'VE GOT A WHOLE LOT OF SOCIAL SCIENTISTS AND PEOPLE WORKING IN THAT SPHERE, HELPING PEOPLE A LOT. BUT THAT, AGAIN, IS VERY TIME-CONSUMING AND REALLY DIFFICULT. SO I'M SURE THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING A LOT. AND AS CLIMATE CHANGE RAMPS UP, UNFORTUNATELY, THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN AGAIN IN BOTH OUR COUNTRIES. HOW DO WE STRUCTURE OUR RECOVERY PLANS IN A WAY THAT'S PROACTIVE AND AVOIDS JUST REPEATING THE SAME SITUATIONS? WELL, THIS IS SOMETHING I TALK ABOUT A LOT IN MY RESEARCH, BECAUSE WE ARE SO REACTIVE. THE AUSTRALIAN PRODUCTIVITY COMMISSION FOUND THAT WE SPEND 97% OF OUR FUNDS ON RECOVERY, AND I REALLY WANT TO CHANGE THAT DYNAMIC. AND WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, WE DO KNOW THAT THE COST OF THIS IS GOING TO GET WORSE, AND THE ECONOMIC AND EMOTIONAL AND PHYSICAL COSTS OF DOING ALL OF THIS. SO WHAT WE HAVE TO START DOING IS FIRSTLY, DON'T BUILD ANY MORE HOUSES IN THE FLOODPLAIN, IN THESE VULNERABLE AREAS, BECAUSE WE'RE MAKING THAT PROBLEM WORSE. AND THEN SCALE UP THIS PROGRAM SO WE MOVE MORE AND MORE HOUSES, BECAUSE THIS ADAPTATION PROCESS IS REALLY THE ONLY WAY THAT IN THE LONG-TERM WE'LL START MAKING A DIFFERENCE. ONE CONTENTIOUS ISSUE HERE, THOUGH, IS HOW DO YOU MANAGE PEOPLE WHO REFUSE TO LEAVE, WHO HAVE ALREADY BUILT IN THOSE FLOOD-PRONE AREAS? THAT'S A REALLY BIG PROBLEM. AND THAT'S THE ISSUE FOR US BECAUSE I THINK A STRENGTH OF OUR SYSTEM IS WE'VE MADE IT VOLUNTARY. SO THAT'S REALLY GOOD. PEOPLE HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO TAKE THEIR TIME TO WORK THROUGH THAT PROCESS. BUT WHAT DO YOU DO IF YOU'VE GOT A STREET WHERE SIX OF THE HOUSES HAVE MOVED BUT TWO HAVEN'T? THAT MAKES IT REALLY DIFFICULT TO REDEVELOP THAT SPACE. SO I THINK WE'VE GOT TO HAVE THAT ONGOING PROCESS SO THAT WHEN THOSE HOUSES GO ON THE MARKET IN THE FUTURE, WE STILL HAVE SOME FUNDS TO BE ABLE TO BUY THEM THEN. SO I SEE THIS VERY MUCH AS AN INITIAL STEP THAT NEEDS ITERATIVE PROCESSES AFTER THIS EVENT, BECAUSE THE PROBLEM'S NOT GOING AWAY. AND THE KIND OF PROACTIVE PROGRAMS THAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING ARE GOING TO BE IMMENSELY EXPENSIVE. HOW REALISTIC IS IT THAT GOVERNMENTS BOTH IN AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND ARE GOING TO SPEND THE MONEY NECESSARY? WELL, AGAIN, THIS IS COMING BACK TO THIS PROACTIVE THING, BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS ARE IF WE BUILD THE HOUSES PROPERLY IN THE FIRST PLACE, WE'LL SAVE SOME MONEY THAT WAY. AND THAT MEANS BUILDING CODES AND BUILDING MATERIALS AND SO ON. SO THERE'S THAT PART OF THE EQUATION. BUT YES, THE REALITY IS BOTH COUNTRIES ARE TALKING ABOUT THOUSANDS OF HOUSES, AND NONE OF US WANT TO INCREASE OUR TAXES TO PAY FOR THAT. SO WE'VE GOT TO TRY AND FIND A MODEL THAT ADDS INCREMENTAL MONEY TO THIS SYSTEM, BECAUSE THE INDIVIDUAL CAN'T WEAR THE COST, AND THE COUNCILS HAVE APPROVED SOME OF THIS DEVELOPMENT. SO I DO THINK THERE IS AN ONUS ON GOVERNMENTS TO HELP IMPROVE THE SITUATION. TO LOCALISE IT FOR OUR AUDIENCE A LITTLE BIT, MANY HOMES WERE RED-STICKERED HERE FOLLOWING THE CHRISTCHURCH EARTHQUAKE. DO YOU THINK THAT KIND OF TOP-DOWN APPROACH IS WORKABLE, OR SHOULD IT BE MORE BOTTOM-UP? LOOK, THE TOP-DOWN APPROACH IS NEVER REALLY GOOD FOR COMMUNITY BUY-IN. AND I THINK THERE WAS A PROBLEM IN CHRISTCHURCH. CHRISTCHURCH WAS A GOOD SYSTEM BECAUSE IT DID RESPOND PROBABLY QUITE QUICKLY, BUT IT PROBABLY DIDN'T TAKE THAT HUMAN AND INDIVIDUAL FACTOR IN SO WELL. QUEENSLAND ALSO HAD A SYSTEM HERE WHERE WE MOVED A TOWN AFTER THE 2011 FLOODS. IT WAS A LITTLE TOWN. AGAIN, THERE WAS AN ELEMENT OF BEING VOLUNTARY IN THAT, AND THAT WAS A GOVERNMENT BALLOT SYSTEM WHERE PEOPLE COULD MOVE. BUT THE NEW APPROACH THAT THE QUEENSLAND RECONSTRUCTION AUTHORITY IS TAKING IS A FAR MORE CONSULTATIVE PROCESS, AND I THINK THAT'S BEEN A BETTER VERSION THAN THE CHRISTCHURCH VERSION. WE DO EVENTUALLY LEARN FROM HISTORY, AND WE CAN LEARN FROM EACH OTHER A LOT IN THIS SPACE. AND FINAL QUESTION, MARGARET, DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD BE FOLLOWING IN YOUR FOOTSTEPS IN OUR RECOVERY PLANS, AND WHAT WOULD YOUR TOP ADVICE BE TO US? MY TOP ADVICE IS ` WE KNOW WHERE THESE VULNERABLE PLACES ARE; WE KNOW WHERE THESE VULNERABLE PEOPLE LIVE, AND THEY'RE OFTEN THE PEOPLE WHO CAN LEAST AFFORD TO BE ABLE TO SOLVE THE PROBLEMS FOR THEMSELVES ` SO TALK TO YOUR COMMUNITIES, WORK REALLY CLOSELY WITH YOUR COMMUNITIES, AND START FUNDING THE COMMUNITIES TO BE ABLE TO ADAPT TO THE CLIMATE CRISIS THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE FACING. WELL, I'M JOINED NOW BY OUR PANEL, FORMER AUCKLAND MAYORAL CANDIDATE EFESO COLLINS AND FORMER NATIONAL PARTY DEPUTY LEADER PAULA BENNETT. WELCOME TO YOU BOTH. I WANT TO TOUCH ON THAT INTERVIEW THAT WE'VE JUST SEEN. WERE YOU SURPRISED, EFESO, TO SEE PEOPLE STILL LIVING IN THEIR RUINED HOMES AFTER` A YEAR AFTER THOSE FLOODS? YEAH, NOT NECESSARILY SURPRISED, BECAUSE THESE ARE PLACES THAT PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SPENDING SO MUCH TIME ` IT'S PART OF WHO THEY ARE. AND I THINK IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE RESPONSES, PARTICULARLY IN WEST AUCKLAND AND MANGERE AND OTARA, WHAT WE SAW WAS THE COMMUNITY RALLIED AROUND THOSE PEOPLE, AND IT WAS THAT NEGOTIATION THAT GOT PEOPLE OUT OF THEIR HOMES. BUT THERE WAS MAJOR DEVASTATION. YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE SLOW TO MOVE. ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SHE COMMENTED ON WAS WE'VE GOT TO PLAN BETTER. WE'VE GOT TO SPEND THE MONEY UP FRONT RATHER THAN BE REACTIONARY. AND I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF PLANS WE HAVE, BUT WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF FUNDING AND A LOT OF, KIND OF, NOUS WHEN IT COMES TO BEING RESPONSIVE IMMEDIATELY. PAULA, DO YOU AGREE WITH MARGARET THAT A VOLUNTARY ELEMENT TO MANAGED RETREAT IS NECESSARY? OR SOMETIMES DOES THE GOVERNMENT HAVE TO GET TOUGH? YEAH, A BIT OF BOTH, REALLY. SO, YOU KNOW, WE` I LOVED THE INTERVIEW, AND I THINK IT'S JUST SOMETHING WE REALLY NEED TO HEAR MORE ABOUT, BECAUSE YOU CAN TAKE THE LEARNINGS FROM CHRISTCHURCH AND` CERTAINLY HOW THAT DID, AND FROM QUEENSLAND AS WELL. SO IF YOU LOOK AT THAT, I THINK THAT SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT IN THAT THE` YOU KNOW, THE CHRISTCHURCH` WE HAD TO MAKE SOME TOUGH DECISIONS AND SAY TO PEOPLE ` AND OFTEN IN OUR POORER AREAS ` 'SORRY, YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE BUILDING HERE AGAIN. 'HOW DO WE DO THIS? HOW DO WE MOVE YOU?' BUT AT THE OTHER LEVEL, YOU KNOW, COMMUNITIES LIKE MURIWAI AND` WHEN YOU LOOK AT THOSE COMMUNITIES, YOU KNOW, THEY WANT TO BE PART OF THE SOLUTION. AND IF YOU DON'T BRING THEM WITH YOU AND IF YOU DON'T COMMUNICATE WELL, I CAN TELL YOU MY STAUNCH WESTIES WILL STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES. I DO NOT DOUBT THAT. WE'VE SEEN A LITTLE BIT OF THAT ALREADY. I WANT TO MOVE ON TO ATTENDANCE NOW, BECAUSE THIS IS SUCH A HUGE ISSUE, ISN'T IT? ONE OF THE MOST PRESSING ISSUES, PROBABLY, FOR THIS GOVERNMENT. WHAT DID YOU THINK OF THE MINISTER'S INTERVIEW, PAULA? UM, I FEEL AWFUL, BECAUSE I ACTUALLY THINK IT WAS AN AWFUL INTERVIEW, TO BE QUITE BLUNT WITH YOU. WHY? AND I DON'T WANT TO SIT HERE AND RIP INTO HER, BECAUSE I THINK SHE'S A RELATIVELY NEW MINISTER WITH A HUGE PORTFOLIO, AND IT'S` AND I WANT HER TO DO WELL, BECAUSE, GOSH, WE ALL WANT EDUCATION AND OUR KIDS TO DO WELL, AND IF SHE'S GOOD IN THE JOB, THEN THAT'LL BE IT. YES. BUT TOO MUCH OVER-EXPLAINING WHEN IT COMES TO NUMBERS. THE 'MODERATE CHILDREN', JUST` I JUST COULDN'T GET PAST THAT. WHEN SHE TRIED TO CORRECT YOU ON, 'IT'S ONE TERM 'AND NOT THE WHOLE YEAR THAT THERE'S 95,000 CHILDREN'... THERE WERE KIND OF SO MANY DIFFERENT ELEMENTS TO IT THAT IT WASN'T CONCISE, AND IT JUST FELT LIKE THIS POLICY IS REALLY ILL THOUGHT OUT. WELL, YOU'VE RAISED A REALLY GOOD POINT, WHICH IS THAT WE NEED` AND I THINK THE MINISTER WOULD AGREE WITH THIS ` IS WE NEED BETTER DATA, DON'T WE, FROM THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION? WE NEED TO KNOW THE SIZE OF THE PROBLEM, EFESO, AND WE NEED TO KNOW EXACTLY WHERE IT IS IN ORDER TO MAKE GOOD POLICY, DON'T WE? YEAH, THE INTERVIEW GOT STRONGER TOWARDS THE END. I THINK SHE FOUND HER STRIDE AS SHE STARTED TO TALK MORE ABOUT HER EXPERIENCE AS A SCHOOL PRINCIPAL. I THINK WHERE WE CAN KIND OF WORK OUT WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE IS` SHE STARTED TO TALK ABOUT ENGAGEMENT AND ATTENDANCE. AND I THINK WE'VE GOT TO FOCUS ON DISENGAGEMENT. YOUNG PEOPLE ARE DISENGAGED, FOR ALL OF THE REASONS THAT YOU'VE EXPLAINED, BUT IF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY'RE WELCOME, THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE THEY'RE VALUED IN THE SCHOOLING SYSTEM, THEN THEY'RE GOING TO DISENGAGE. AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WE'RE SEEING THAT. IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THE COVID AND THE SICK CHILDREN ` YOU EXPLAINED THAT, AND WE CAN PUT THOSE PEOPLE TO THE SIDE. BUT WHAT WE'VE GOT IS A SCHOOLING SYSTEM THAT ISN'T ALLOWING OUR YOUNG PEOPLE TO BE CREATIVE AND COLLABORATIVE. THAT'S WHAT WE WANT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE TO LEAVE THE SCHOOLING SYSTEM WITH. INSTEAD, WE YOU KNOW, WE ALMOST EXPECT DOCILE LEARNERS WHO ARE JUST RECIPIENTS OF INFORMATION. WE'VE GOT TO BE MORE THAN THAT IN A SCHOOLING SYSTEM. DO YOU AGREE, PAULA? DO YOU`? BECAUSE THERE ARE` YOU WOULD HAVE COME ACROSS, IN YOUR TIME IN THE MINISTRY OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT, VERY DISENGAGED FAMILIES. SO HOW DO YOU BRING PEOPLE BACK INTO THE SYSTEM? WELL, IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE THIS POLICY IS GOING TO DO ANYTHING FOR THAT. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, IT FEELS LIKE THESE ATTENDANTS ` 82 PEOPLE ` ARE ACTUALLY FOR THE PARENTS IN SAINT HELIERS THAT ARE GOING TO FIJI FOR A WEEK IN TERM TIME. RIGHT. (SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) BUT THIS IS WHERE YOU GET A GOOD BOOST IN THE NUMBERS. YOU KNOW, AND I'D KIND OF ARGUE THAT THOSE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN THAT WE SHOULD BE MOST CONCERNED ABOUT AT THIS TIME AND WHERE WE SHOULD BE PUTTING` YOU KNOW, WE'VE GOT A MINISTRY OF EDUCATION UNDER THE CURRENT PRIME MINISTER, WHEN HE WAS MINISTER, 1500 NEW STAFF, YOU KNOW, MORE STAFF IN THE MINISTRY AND HEAD OFFICE, AND WE'RE SAYING 82 PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY FOR ATTENDANCE WHEN IT'S PROBABLY, EDUCATION-WISE, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT'S GOING ON THERE. IF THEY'RE NOT THERE, THEY CAN'T LEARN. WE KNOW ALL OF THAT. SO THIS FEELS LIKE THE` WHEN HE WAS STILL THE MINISTER OF EDUCATION AND THINKING OVER CHRISTMAS HE WAS GOING TO BECOME THE PRIME MINISTER, HE SAT THERE AND WENT, 'WHERE'S MY SHORTFALLS? 'OH, I'D BETTER MAKE SURE WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT EDUCATION.' AND IT FEELS ILL THOUGHT OUT, REALLY ON THE EDGE AND JUST ISN'T GOING TO MAKE THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE FOR THOSE MOST MARGINALISED CHILDREN THAT YOU MENTIONED. YEAH, AND THEY SHOULD BE THE FOCUS, SHOULDN'T THEY, EFESO? SHOULD WE JUST BE PUTTING THAT 75 MILLION STRAIGHT INTO THOSE SCHOOLS, WHICH WE KNOW IS THE BEATING HEART OF THOSE COMMUNITIES, AND SAYING, 'YOU USE YOUR NETWORKS. 'YOU KNOW THESE KIDS; YOU GET TO THEM'? YEAH, SCHOOLS KNOW THEIR COMMUNITIES REALLY WELL. THEY KNOW THE FAMILIES THAT ARE DISENGAGED. AND I WOULD BE COMMITTING ALL OF THIS RESOURCE TO YOUTH WORKERS OR SOCIAL WORKERS, BECAUSE THEY'RE THE ONES WHO ARE GOING TO WORK WITH FAMILIES. I'M REALLY TROUBLED BY THE IDEA THAT THEY MAY` THE TRUANCY OFFICERS, OR WHATEVER THEY'RE CALLED, MAY WORK WITH FAMILIES. YOU HAVE TO WORK WITH FAMILIES. THE PACIFIC EDUCATION PLAN SAYS THAT THE WHANAU WAS AT THE CORE OF THE LEARNING EXPERIENCE. SO WE'VE GOT TO BE WORKING ALONGSIDE FAMILIES AND SUPPORTING THEM. I WORK WITH OTARA HEALTH, WHICH IS SUPPORTING YOUTH WHO ARE DISENGAGED. A LOT OF THE YOUNG PEOPLE THAT WE'RE WORKING WITH ARE` COME FROM THE RAM-RAIDING FAMILIES. IF WE DON'T WORK WITH THE ENTIRE FAMILY, NO ONE'S GETTING SUPPORT, AND OTHERWISE WE'RE JUST GOING TO RECYCLE THE SAME ISSUE. WE'VE GOT TO LOOK AT THE SCHOOLING SYSTEM MUCH WIDER, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT WE WANT. WELL, THIS` PAULA? WELL, I WAS GOING TO SAY, SOMETIMES... EXCUSE THE LANGUAGE, BUT YOU'VE JUST GOT TO BE BLOODY- MINDED ABOUT GETTING THEM TO SCHOOL. YOU KNOW, LIKE` AND I AGREE WITH YOU 100% ` PLEASE DON'T GET ME WRONG ` BECAUSE I UNDERSTAND AS MUCH AS ANYONE THAT IT IS ALL THE WHANAU AND THAT WE'VE GOT TO DO IT. BUT SOMETIMES, YOU KNOW` I MET THIS AMAZING WOMAN IN KAWERAU I WAS TALKING ABOUT, AND SHE WAS A NAN, AND SHE SAID, 'MY JOB WAS TO GET THOSE KIDS TO SCHOOL, 'AND I WOULD STEP OVER DRUNK DAD AND I WOULD PULL THE KID OUT OF BED 'AND I WOULD GET THEM DRESSED, 'AND THEN I'D MAKE SURE I HAD A FEED FOR THEM IN THE VAN 'AND I'D GET THEM TO SCHOOL. AND WITHIN THREE DAYS, 'THEY'RE ACTUALLY WAITING FOR ME WHEN I TURN UP, 'AND THEN WITHIN A COUPLE OF WEEKS, 'THEY'RE ACTUALLY WALKING THERE BY THEMSELVES.' NOW, I'M SAYING` DRUNK DAD PROBABLY NEEDS A WHOLE LOT OF HELP AND THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF OTHER THINGS GOING IN THAT HOUSEHOLD ` I DON'T DENY IT. LET'S GET THAT SUPPORT. BUT SOMETIMES, LET'S JUST GET THESE KIDS TO SCHOOL, WHERE IT'S SAFE, THEY CAN LEARN, WE CAN REALLY GIVE THEM THAT KIND OF SUPPORT THERE AS WELL. YEAH, THAT IS THE PATHWAY, ISN'T IT? SO WHAT DO YOU THINK, EFESO? DO YOU THINK THAT THE MINISTER IS BEING AMBITIOUS ENOUGH? WE'VE GOT` SHE WANTS TO GET 70% OF KIDS GOING 90% OF THE TIME BY NEXT YEAR. THAT STILL FEELS LOW. YEAH, I'D LIKE TO SEE HIGHER TARGETS. AND WHAT SHOULD BE HAPPENING IS SCHOOLS SHOULD BE ABLE TO IDENTIFY WHEN A CHILD HITS 90% ATTENDANCE, THEN SOME KIND OF ALARM GOES OFF AND WE GET SOMEONE OUT WORKING WITH THE STUDENTS. WE SHOULDN'T BE GETTING TO 70% AND THEN THE ALARM BELLS ARE RAISED PUBLICLY, BECAUSE THAT SEEMS TO BE THE STANDARD. SO WE CAN DO MORE. AND THERE'LL BE EDUCATIONALISTS WATCHING THIS PROGRAMME NOW WHO WILL KNOW THAT FREIRE ` YOU KNOW, THE BRAZILIAN PHILOSOPHER ` HE TALKED ABOUT A SCHOOLING SYSTEM THAT ALLOWS PEOPLE TO BE LIBERATED, AND THAT LIBERATION COMES FROM HAVING A TRUSTED SYSTEM. WE'VE GOT TO HAVE GOOD TEACHER/STUDENT RELATIONSHIPS. THAT'S WHAT YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FEEL ENGAGED WITH. AND WE'RE GOING TO NEED NAN, WE'RE GOING TO NEED AUNTIE TO COME IN AND `JUST WALK IN AND SAY, 'RIGHT, ALL THE KIDS 'HAVE TO GET READY.' BECAUSE PARENTS NEED THAT SUPPORT TOO. SOMETIMES, IT'S THE NAN'S STORY THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE. I WANT TO SWITCH NOW TO ROB CAMPBELL, BECAUSE WE HAVE HAD A LITTLE BIT OF A SOAP OPERA AND A MINI DRAMA PLAYING OUT IN WELLINGTON THIS WEEK. ROB CAMPBELL WAS SACKED FROM HIS TWO POSITIONS AS CHAIR. PAULA, YOU ARE A FORMER STATE SERVICES MINISTER. WHAT'S YOUR VIEW? I LOVED THAT JOB, BY THE WAY, BECAUSE` WELL, IF YOU WORK ON THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND HOW THEY CONNECT BOTH TOGETHER AND THEN WITH COMMUNITIES AND WITH PLACES, THEN YOU'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO MAKE A LONGER-TERM DIFFERENCE THAN YOU CAN IN DOING ONE LITTLE POLICY AS A MINISTER. SO I ACTUALLY SAW THAT AS A HUGE PRIVILEGE. I AM THE BIGGEST ADVOCATE FOR A NEUTRAL PUBLIC SERVICE, YOU KNOW, AND` LET ME GIVE YOU THE ALTERNATIVE ` THE ALTERNATIVE IS AN AMERICAN MODEL WHERE THE PRESIDENT COMES IN AND ELECTS HIS MATES THAT HAVE FUNDED HIS CAMPAIGN INTO SENIOR ROLES, RUNNING HUGE MINISTRIES. AND I HAVE GOT SO MUCH RESPECT FOR OUR PUBLIC SERVICE. THEY ARE THERE, THEY ARE NEUTRAL, THEY CAN MOVE FROM ONE GOVERNMENT TO ANOTHER. SO THEY CAN` AND I THINK THAT THERE IS SOMETHING, ABSOLUTELY, IN THAT THAT GIVES US NOT A UNIQUENESS, BUT SOMETHING KIND OF SPECIAL, THAT THOSE EXPERTS CAN ACTUALLY STAY IN THEIR ROLES AND WORK WITH ANY GOVERNMENT OF ANY COLOUR. BUT IS IT UNREASONABLE FOR THEM TO EXPECT THEM NOT TO HAVE ANY OPINION? THEY ARE PROBABLY BETTER INFORMED THAN MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE FREE TO HAVE AN OPINION ON POLITICS OR ON POLICY. WHAT DO YOU THINK, EFESO? YEAH, YOU DEFINITELY WANT THE PUBLIC SERVICE TO GIVE YOU FREE AND FRANK ADVICE, AND I THINK THIS HAS OPENED UP A HUGE DISCUSSION THIS WEEK, EH, THE LINKEDIN POST THAT ROB PUT UP. LOOK, I'M REALLY SUPPORTIVE OF PEOPLE HAVING THE ABILITY TO HAVE THEIR SAY, BUT WE'VE GOT TO HAVE IT WITHIN THE CONFINES OF BEING TRUSTED BOTH BY THE MINISTERS THAT YOU'RE SERVING AS WELL AS THE GENERAL PUBLIC. AND SO FOR ME, I'M STILL PROBABLY ON THE FENCE, TO BE HONEST, BECAUSE I LIKE THE IDEA OF PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO BE FULL AND FRANK, BUT I THINK THERE ARE PARTICULAR RESTRICTIONS THAT WE'VE GOT TO PLACE ON OURSELVES. SO I HAVEN'T REALLY SETTLED ON A POSITION THIS WEEK OTHER THAN I CAN SEE THAT PEOPLE WANT US TO BE REALLY ROBUST IN THE WAY IN WHICH WE GIVE ADVICE, BUT THIS IS` THIS IS TEETERING ON THOSE EDGES A LITTLE BIT. WELL, YOU KNOW, CHRISTOPHER LUXON IS BIG ENOUGH, ISN'T HE, TO TAKE A BIT OF A CRITIQUE OF HIS THREE WATER POLICY? YOU KNOW, THAT'S` THAT'S NOT THE POINT. NO, BUT IT SHOULDN'T` SO WHY SHOULDN'T ROB CAMPBELL BE ABLE TO SAY WHAT HE THINKS AND STILL DO HIS JOB AT TE WHATU ORA WELL? BECAUSE HE'S WADING INTO POLITICS, AND THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SIGNED UP FOR WITH THE JOB. IT THEN GIVES A PERCEPTION, AND YOU WONDER IF` WELL, THE PERCEPTION IS IF WE HAVE A NATIONAL GOVERNMENT IN OCTOBER 15th, CAN HE WORK WITH THEM... WELL, THAT` ...IN A CLEAR AND PROFESSIONAL WAY? AND I'M` WELL, I'M` WHATEVER NATIONAL SAID, I'M SAYING TO YOU I WOULD QUESTION THAT. WHEREAS I LOVE THE FREE AND FRANK. SO, I CAN REMEMBER SO MANY TIMES TREASURY COMING OUT IN DISAGREEMENT WITH THEN FINANCE MINISTER BILL ENGLISH, AND BILL LOVED IT. LIKE, HE'D GO, 'YEAH, THEY THINK DIFF`' LIKE, 'THEY PRESENTED THIS INFORMATION 'AND SOME OF THE MEDIA WOULD MAKE THIS BIG THING THAT, 'YOU KNOW, YOUR TREASURY AND THE FINANCE MINISTER AT LOGGERHEADS.' IT'S LIKE, 'WELL, ACTUALLY THEY'RE DEBATING POLICY.' SO DEBATE POLICY. DISAGREE. GO FOR IT. BUT ACTUALLY, WHEN YOU'RE IN THOSE BIGGER JOBS, YOUR POLITICAL OPINIONS SHOULD PERHAPS STAY TO YOURSELF. - OK. NEVER SHORT OF A POLITICAL OPINION BETWEEN US ALL. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR COMING ONTO THE PANEL THIS MORNING. THANKS, GUYS. KIA ORA. E WHAI AKE NEI, COMING UP ` ACT MP KAREN CHHOUR SHARES HER BACKSTORY. PLUS, NATIONAL'S JOSEPH MOONEY TRIES TO CONVINCE YOU HE'D MAKE A BETTER FORESTRY MINISTER THAN STUART NASH. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK TO THE PITCH. IN THE HOT SEAT THIS WEEK, NATIONAL PARTY FORESTRY SPOKESPERSON JOSEPH MOONEY. I ASKED HIM WHAT HIS FIRST POST-CYCLONE MOVE WOULD HAVE BEEN HAD HE BEEN FORESTRY MINISTER INSTEAD OF STUART NASH. WE ACTUALLY HAVE TO GO BACK A LITTLE BIT` STEP AND SAY, 'WHAT HAVEN'T WE DONE YET?' AND THE PROBLEM IS THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT HASN'T ACTUALLY ACTED URGENTLY ON RECOMMENDATIONS THEY RECEIVED BACK IN 2020. FOR EXAMPLE, SLASH TRAPS. THERE WERE RECOMMENDATIONS ABOUT HOW TO IMPROVE THE REGULATORY ENVIRONMENT FOR THOSE; COUNCILS COULD HAVE SET THOSE BETTER. THERE WAS ALSO RECOMMENDATIONS AROUND ACTUALLY INCLUDING SLASH MANAGEMENT, SPECIFICALLY IN FOREST HARVESTING PLANS. OK, SO WHAT'S THE FIRST THING THAT YOU'D DO? WHAT'S THE MOST URGENT THING THAT YOU WOULD DO WERE YOU STUART NASH? I WOULD ENSURE THAT WE CHANGE THE REGULATIONS AROUND HARVEST MANAGEMENT PLANS TO ENSURE THAT SLASH MANAGEMENT IS SPECIFICALLY REQUIRED IN THOSE HARVEST PLANS. THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT HAS BEEN AROUND FOR DECADES. CAN YOU POINT TO SOMETHING THAT NATIONAL DID WHEN DAVID CARTER WAS FORESTRY MINISTER THAT ACTUALLY IMPROVED THE SITUATION? NO, QUITE FRANKLY, I CAN'T. BECAUSE... LOOK, I TOOK THIS JOB ON, ACTUALLY, THE SAME DAY THE PRIME MINISTER` SO THIS IS ON YOUR SHOULDERS AS WELL? WELL, THIS IS A LONG-STANDING ISSUE. AND, LOOK, I SUPPOSE THE... IF WE STEP BACK, THIS IS` WE'RE T-TALKING IN EAST COAST ABOUT THE MOST` SOME OF THE MOST RELIABLE SOILS IN THE WORLD, PLANTING DECISIONS THAT WERE MADE 30-ODD YEARS AGO. HOWEVER, THERE WAS A REVIEW AFTER THE 2018 TOLAGA BAY FLOODING AND SLASH EVENT FOLLOWING COMMUNITY PRESSURE TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. RECOMMENDATIONS CAME BACK IN 2020. THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS HAVE STILL NOT BEEN ACTED ON, AND I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH. FOR PEOPLE ON THE GROUND RIGHT NOW, REGULATORY CHANGES WILL TAKE TIME. WHAT'S ONE ACTION THAT YOU COULD TAKE THAT COULD HELP WITH THE CLEAN-UP IMMEDIATELY? IT'S ACTUALLY MAKING SURE THE FORESTRY COMPANIES ARE OUT THERE DOING IT, AND LOOK TO BE FAIR, UH... SO THIS IS ON THEM. THEY SHOULD BE GOING IN THERE AND DOING IT. I THINK` I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THEY ARE. AND TO GIVE THEM CREDIT, I'VE BEEN UP THE EAST COAST ACTUALLY, FOLLOWING CYCLONE HALE AND CYCLONE GABRIELLE, AND THEY HAVE BEEN POURING THEIR RESOURCES INTO THE CLEAN-UP. SO THAT'S A GOOD THING. SO THEY'RE DOING ENOUGH. THEY ARE DOING A LOT. WHETHER... WE NEED TO STEP BACK, AND THINK, ACTUALLY, HOW DO WE PREVENT THIS SLASH COMING DOWN THE STREAM? I THINK WE NEED TO HAVE A BALANCED CONVERSATION ` IT'S NOT JUST SLASH, IT'S ALSO FORESTED DEBRIS, IT'S OTHER WOODY DEBRIS FROM POPLAR WILLOW. BUT OBVIOUSLY FORESTRY SLASH IS A REALLY BIG COMPONENT. AND HOW DO WE STOP THAT HAPPENING? THERE WERE RECOMMENDATIONS MADE IN 2020. THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT, THEY HAVE NOT ACTED ON THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS TO DATE, WHICH I DON'T THINK IS GOOD ENOUGH BECAUSE THAT 2020 REPORT ALSO WARNED THEM THAT THERE WAS GOING TO BE INCREASED FREQUENCY OF EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS AND THE RISK OF THE DAMAGE FROM FORESTRY SLASH COMING DOWN THE STREAM. AND LATER THAT SAME YEAR, THE LABOUR GOVERNMENT DECLARED A CLIMATE EMERGENCY. THEY HAVE NOT ACTED URGENTLY, SO I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH. SHOULD HARSHER PENALTIES BE INSTITUTED FOR FORESTRY COMPANIES WHICH DON'T FOLLOW EXISTING REGULATION? WELL, THOSE ACTUALLY ALREADY EXIST IN THEIR OWN WAY AND A NUMBER OF FOREST COMPANIES WERE PROSECUTED PREVIOUSLY` BUT SHOULD THEY BE HARSHER? BECAUSE IT CLEARLY ISN'T CHANGING MUCH BEHAVIOUR. WE DO THINK THE PENALTY REGIME SHOULD BE LOOKED AT AND LOOK AT INCREASING THOSE PENALTIES. TO WHERE? WELL, CURRENTLY THE MAXIMUM PENALTY IS $600,000. I'M NOT GOING TO SET IN STONE WHAT THAT SHOULD BE, BUT THERE SHOULD BE A CLEAR SIGNAL THAT IF` IT SHOULD BE HIGHER, THOUGH. IT SHOULD BE HIGHER. BUT THERE IS AN ECONOMIC COMPONENT HERE BECAUSE FORESTRY REPRESENTS ABOUT 1.6% OF GDP. THIS IS TENS OF THOUSANDS OF JOBS. HOW DO YOU BALANCE PUTTING IN THESE REGULATIONS WITHOUT HURTING THE FAMILIES WHICH DO DEPEND ON THIS INDUSTRY? FORESTRY IS NEW ZEALAND'S THIRD BIGGEST EXPORT SECTOR, SO IT'S REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT TO NEW ZEALAND. AND` BUT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE WE'VE GOT GOOD STANDARDS IN PLACE THAT MAKE IT REALLY CLEAR FOR BOTH COUNCILS WHO MONITOR AND ENSURE COMPLIANCE AS WELL AS CONSENT FORESTRY ACTIVITIES. AND THE FORESTRY COMPANIES MAKE IT REALLY CLEAR WHAT IS REQUIRED FROM THEM SO THAT WE CAN ENSURE WE'RE NOT HURTING PEOPLE DOWNSTREAM, WE'RE NOT TAKING OUT INFRASTRUCTURE, WE'RE NOT DAMAGING OTHER LAND USERS AND SETTING SLASHING UP ON BEACHES. IS IT POSSIBLE TO INTRODUCE STRICTER REGULATION WITHOUT HURTING THE INDUSTRY'S BOTTOM LINE? IT SEEMS LIKE WE CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS. JUST MAKE IT REALLY CLEAR THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PLAN FOR SLASH MANAGEMENT AS PART OF ANY HARVESTING PLAN. LIKE THAT` IT'S JUST A SIMPLE FIX THAT CAN BE DONE. IT'S NOT` YOU KNOW, TO BE FAIR, IT WON'T BE SIMPLE TO ALWAYS MAKE DELIVER ON THAT BECAUSE WE'RE DEALING WITH VERY STEEP TERRAIN, DEALING WITH FORESTS THAT WERE PLANTED 30 YEARS AGO BEFORE WE HAD AN AWARENESS OF SOME OF THESE EXTREME WEATHER EVENTS. BUT LOOK, THERE'S THAT. THERE'S ALSO THESE SLASH TRAPS WHICH WE CAN STOP THIS WOOD COMING DOWN STREAM, IF IT GETS IN THE WATERWAYS. BUT WE WANT TO STOP IT IN GETTING THE WATERWAYS. BUT AT THIS STAGE, I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT WE ACTUALLY STOP IT IF IT DOES GET THERE, BECAUSE WE'RE DEALING WITH LONG-STANDING PRACTICES THAT HAVE BEEN GOING ON FOR SOME TIME. WOULD YOU COMMIT TO BEING BOUND BY THE RESULTS OF THE INQUIRY? THEY'VE GIVEN EIGHT WEEKS FOR THIS INQUIRY. WE'RE ONE WEEK INTO IT. WE DON'T YET KNOW WHO'S GOING TO BE` SO, NO, YOU WOULDN'T BE` WELL, I NEED MORE INFORMATION. AND I THINK I THINK THE WHOLE COMMUNITY NEEDS MORE INFORMATION. WE ARE ALREADY ONE WEEK INTO IT. THERE'S ONLY SEVEN WEEKS TO GO AND STILL DON'T KNOW WHO'S GOING TO BE CONSULTED ON IT. ALL RIGHT, THAT SOUNDS LIKE A NO. FINAL QUESTION, IS THIS THE PORTFOLIO THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE GUNNING FOR IF NATIONAL'S LUCKY ENOUGH TO TAKE THE NEXT ELECTION? OH, LOOK, I THINK THIS IS AN AWESOME PORTFOLIO. LIKE, IT HAS A HUGE AMOUNT OF OPPORTUNITIES, OBVIOUSLY HAS A LOT OF CHALLENGES AS WELL. BUT THIS FORESTRY IS A KEY PART OF THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY AND I'M EXCITED TO BE THE SPOKESPERSON FOR IT. YEAH, WELL, NOBODY WANTS TO BE BOUND BY THOSE RECOMMENDATIONS, DO THEY? HE HAS THAT IN COMMON WITH THE MINISTER. STAY WITH US. WE ARE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO ` WELCOME BACK TO BACKSTORY, ONE OF MY FAVOURITE PARTS OF THE PROGRAMME, WHERE WE DELVE INTO THE LIVES OF OUR POLITICIANS AND GET TO KNOW THEM A LITTLE AS PEOPLE. THIS WEEK, WE SPENT TIME WITH ACT MP KAREN CHHOUR AT THE BAYVIEW COMMUNITY CENTRE, WHERE SHE SPENT SOME OF THE BEST ` AND WORST ` TIMES OF HER LIFE. HERE IS HER BACKSTORY. SO, THIS IS THE CENTRE OF BAYVIEW ON THE NORTH SHORE, AND IT'S MY YIN-YANG SPOT. IT'S WHERE I HAVE SOME OF THE WORST MEMORIES IN MY LIFE BUT SOME OF THE BEST MEMORIES AS WELL. SO, I WAS BORN IN A TOWN CALLED ALBURY IN NEW SOUTH WALES. NEVER BEEN THERE SINCE` SINCE I'VE COME TO NEW ZEALAND, AND I CAME WHEN I WAS ABOUT 1. I ENDED UP LIVING WITH MY GRANDMA AND MY GRANDAD IN KAEO. I HAD GRANDPARENTS THAT REALLY, REALLY CARED FOR ME, AND SO I THINK THAT WAS A REAL... GOOD` GOOD FOR ME, BECAUSE IT TAUGHT ME FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE LOVED. I CAME TO AUCKLAND WHEN I HAD TO START SCHOOL AND WENT TO LIVE WITH MY MUM. SHE WAS GETTING MARRIED TO HER HUSBAND AT THE TIME, AND SO I HAD A STEPDAD AND A MOTHER THAT HAD JUST GOT MARRIED, AND SO IT WAS KIND OF A BIG CHANGE, UM... I GUESS, FOR ME AND FOR HER. I DIDN'T REALLY KNOW WHO SHE WAS. I REMEMBER MY GRANDMOTHER TELLING ME A STORY ABOUT HOW SHE SHOWED UP WHEN I WAS ABOUT 2-AND-A-HALF WITH PRESENTS AND WALKED IN AND SAID, 'HELLO', AND I SAID, 'WHO ARE YOU?' IT IS KIND OF TOUGH GOING AND LIVING WITH SOMEONE YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW. THERE WAS THINGS GOING ON BEHIND CLOSED DOORS THAT` THAT WERE WELL-HIDDEN. UM, A LOT OF THINGS WERE TAKEN OUT ON ME. THERE WAS A LOT OF ABUSE GOING ON, PHYSICAL AND MENTAL. YEAH. AND... ALTHOUGH I WOULD NEVER WISH THAT ON ANYBODY, IT'S KIND OF SHAPED ME TO BE STRONG, TO DEAL WITH THE HARD KNOCKS. I THINK I'VE GOT A BIT MORE RESILIENCE, UM, THAN` THAN MOST. THE FIRST TIME I RAN AWAY ` THE VERY FIRST TIME ` I TOOK MY LITTLE SISTERS WITH ME, COS I WAS ACTUALLY LOOKING AFTER THEM THAT DAY, AND WE WALKED AND WALKED AND WALKED AND WALKED FOR MILES, AND I SHOWED UP AT A FRIEND'S HOUSE WITH MY TWO LITTLE SISTERS HAND-IN-HAND AND TOLD THEM WHAT WAS GOING ON. AND THEY TOOK ME TO SOME OFFICE, WHERE I TALKED TO SOME PEOPLE, AND... AND THEN... NEXT MINUTE I KNOW, I'M GETTING STUCK IN A CAR AND SENT BACK THERE. AND WONDERING WHY NOBODY WOULD... LISTEN TO MY FEARS AND` WHAT I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT. UM, AND SENT ME BACK TO A HOUSE WHERE I JUST REALLY DIDN'T FEEL SAFE. I DON'T THINK THERE'S QUITE A WORD THAT CAN DESCRIBE IT. UH... PROBABLY 'DESPAIR'. IT'S KIND OF A NUMB FEELING. LIKE, 'I'M... I TRIED.' WHEN YOU GET TO THAT STAGE WHERE YOU DO FEEL NUMB AND` YOU'VE GOT NO FEELINGS ` YOU'RE NOT HAPPY, YOU'RE NOT SAD, YOU'RE NOT ANGRY; YOU'RE JUST NOTHING. UM... AT ONE STAGE, I DID ATTEMPT TO` TO END MY LIFE, AND I THOUGHT, 'OH, THIS'LL BE EASY.' NOT SO MUCH. (LAUGHS) YEAH. BUT, I MEAN... WHEN THAT DIDN'T WORK... I THINK IT... IT WAS... SOMEBODY WATCHING OUT FOR ME. (CHUCKLES) AND I LIKE TO THINK IT'S BECAUSE I HAD A PURPOSE. I WAS SENT TO LIVE WITH AN AUNTIE UP NORTH. I THINK THEY MUST HAVE HAD A FAMILY GROUP CONFERENCE, FROM WHAT I'VE BEEN TOLD. THE SOCIAL WORKER BASICALLY SAID, 'NONE OF YOUR FAMILY ACTUALLY WANT YOU. 'WE CAN'T FIND ANYWHERE FOR YOU TO GO, 'BUT THERE'S AN AUNTIE THAT'S... KINDA WILLING.' AND THAT HURT. THAT HURT ` BEING TOLD, 'YEAH, NO` NOBODY WANTS YOU.' I DID ASK TO GO LIVE WITH MY GRANDMA AGAIN, BUT THEY KIND OF SAID, 'SHE CAN'T COPE WITH YOU; 'IT'S TOO MUCH FOR HER.' UH, SO` YOU KNOW. AND I REALLY HATED MY GRANDMOTHER FOR THAT. SO FOR A LONG TIME, I DIDN'T SPEAK TO HER, COS I` I'VE... I WANTED TO KNOW WHY SHE DIDN'T WANT ME. BUT YEARS LATER, WHEN I REBUILT THAT RELATIONSHIP, WE ACTUALLY HAD A CONVERSATION, AND SHE SAID TO ME, 'I ACTUALLY BEGGED TO HAVE YOU, BUT I WAS TOLD I WAS TOO OLD.' (LAUGHS SHORTLY) UM... AND I HAVE A BIT OF RESENTMENT TO THAT... THAT RELATIONSHIP ` I LOST YEARS OF A RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEBODY THAT I ABSOLUTELY LOVE NOW AND WISH I COULD STILL HAVE HER AROUND NOW. I'M REALLY LUCKY THAT I HAVE A HUSBAND THAT IS PATIENT AND STUCK BY ME THROUGH THE HARD TIMES AND THE GOOD TIMES. WE KNEW EACH OTHER IN INTERMEDIATE. WE MET, UM, WHEN I WAS ABOUT 11. HE WAS MY COOKING PARTNER IN INTERMEDIATE, AND HE COOKS BETTER THAN I DO. AND HAVING SOMEBODY THAT WOULDN'T... LEAVE. BECAUSE I REMEMBER TELLING HIM, UM, 'THERE'S NO POINT IN US DATING, BECAUSE EVERYONE ENDS UP HATING ME,' AND` AND TRIED TO PUSH HIM AWAY A LOT, BUT HE JUST WOULDN'T ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN ` AND HE'S STILL HERE. I MEAN... DIDN'T FEEL LIKE I DESERVED... SOMEBODY WHO CARED. AND I THINK THAT'S` DESTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOUR IS QUITE COMMON. WE GOT MARRIED IN MARCH THE 16th, 21 YEARS AGO, (CHUCKLES) AND THE HALL WE'RE ACTUALLY, UM, HERE TODAY IS THE HALL I HAD MY RECEPTION IN. I'VE GOT MY OLDEST, ZAK ` HE'S 23 ` HE'S FINISHED UNIVERSITY; AND MY SECOND ONE DOWN IS JUST ABOUT TO TURN 21; AND I'VE ALSO GOT A DAUGHTER THAT'S IN HER LAST YEAR OF COLLEGE AND ONE THAT'S JUST STARTED HER FIRST YEAR AT INTERMEDIATE. THEY'RE REALLY GOOD KIDS, AND I'M REALLY PROUD OF THEM. AND I'VE TRIED TO BREAK THAT CYCLE OF, UM... TREAT THEM HOW I WANTED TO BE TREATED. '...IN THE YEARS TO COME.' NEVER IN MY WILDEST DREAMS WOULD I HAVE THOUGHT, A FEW YEARS PRIOR, THAT I'D BE DOING SOMETHING LIKE THIS. I THOUGHT, 'NO, I'M GONNA GIVE THIS A GO.' I DON'T LIKE TO BE TOLD JUST BECAUSE I'M OF MAORI HERITAGE THAT I SHOULD THINK ONE WAY, AND IF I'M NOT, I'M A TRAITOR TO MY RACE. AND I GET THAT A LOT. SO I'M HOPING EVENTUALLY, WHEN PEOPLE SEE MY JOURNEY AND SEE WHAT I'M ACTUALLY TRYING TO ACHIEVE, AND WHEN I DO ACHIEVE THOSE GOALS, THAT THERE WAS A REASON BEHIND THE THINGS I'M SAYING AND DOING. MY JOURNEY MEANS SOMETHING, AND IF I CAN USE THAT TO HELP OTHERS, MAYBE THIS WAS MY PURPOSE THAT DAY. (CHUCKLES) IF THAT MAKES SENSE ` THE DAY THAT I COULD HAVE BEEN GONE FROM THIS WORLD AND SOMEBODY DECIDED, 'NO, IT'S NOT YOUR TIME.' AND MAYBE THIS IS MY PURPOSE AND WHY... SOMEBODY LOOKED OUT FOR ME THAT DAY. (CHUCKLES SHORTLY) MM. SO YOU COULD HELP? YEAH. CHUCKLES: SORRY. YEAH, NO, AND... AND I'M GRATEFUL FOR IT. KAREN CHHOUR THERE. POWERFUL STORY, WASN'T IT? YEAH, YEAH, AND IT'S IMPORTANT TO HEAR ABOUT LIFE AND ALL OF ITS COMPLEXITIES. SO THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR STORY, KAREN CHHOUR. AND THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. THANKS FOR WATCHING. NGA MIHI NUI. WE WILL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. CAPTIONS BY MAEVE KELLY AND KITTY WASASALA. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 This show was brought to you by the New Zealand On Air Public Interest Journalism Fund.