TENA TATOU KATOA. I'M REBECCA WRIGHT. AND I'M SIMON SHEPHERD. E NGA IWI O TE MOTU, NAU MAI ` WELCOME TO NEWSHUB NATION. ON THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` THE NEW HEALTH MINISTER ON BLOWN-OUT HOSPITAL WAIT TIMES AND THE PSYCHOLOGICAL SCARS OF A CYCLONE. COULD THE GOVERNMENT MINIMISE FLOODING BY PROTECTING OUR WETLANDS? AND WHAT DO POST-ARDERN POLITICS LOOK LIKE ` ONLINE? FIRST IN THE PROGRAMME TODAY ` IT'S BEEN A BUSY MONTH FOR THE NEW HEALTH MINISTER. SHE TAKES OVER A HEALTH SYSTEM IN TRANSITION, FRONT-LINE SERVICES BARELY COPING, AND THE ADDED PRESSURE OF MULTIPLE DISASTERS. THIS WEEK, SHE HAD TO DEAL WITH SOME SPURIOUS DATA ON EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT WAIT TIMES FROM TE WHATU ORA. SO I ASKED THE MINISTER WHETHER SHE WAS SATISIFIED WITH ITS PERFORMANCE. I'M NOT HAPPY ABOUT THE WAIT TIMES. FROM DAY ONE, WHEN I CAME INTO THE PORTFOLIO, I SAID HOW WE MANAGE ACUTE DEMAND, PARTICULARLY WINTER, AS ONE OF MY THREE PRIORITIES, AND THAT INCLUDES THIS AREA. I'M ALSO UNHAPPY ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE DATA THIS WEEK, BUT TE WHATU ORA HAVE OWNED THAT AND APOLOGISED FOR THE PUBLICATION ERROR IN THE DATA ON THEIR WEBSITE. ARE WAIT TIMES GETTING WORSE? THEY'RE NOT GOOD ENOUGH, AND THERE HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT TRENDS AROUND THE COUNTRY, BUT OVERALL, THEY'RE NOT IN THE RIGHT PLACE. WE HAVE SEEN THAT THERE IS A LOT OF PRESSURE ON OUR EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS AT THE MOMENT. MY EXPECTATION IS THAT TE WHATU ORA PRIORITISES ACTION ON THIS AREA, AND THAT INCLUDES` LOOK, THERE'S NO SINGLE SILVER BULLET TO TAKE THE PRESSURE OFF OUR EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS. WE'RE GOING TO BE NEEDING TO ACT ON A VARIETY OF THINGS. THAT INCLUDES ALL THE GOOD PREVENTIVE MEASURES OF KEEPING PEOPLE WELL IN THE COMMUNITY ` THE NEW COVID VACCINE WILL BE ROLLING OUT; MAKING SURE WE HAVE ACCESS TO R.A.T.s AND ANTIVIRALS, WHICH ARE STILL FREE IN NEW ZEALAND, UNLIKE OTHER COUNTRIES; THE INFLUENZA VACCINE OVER OVER THE WINTER. WE ALSO NEED TO COLLABORATE BETWEEN HOSPITALS AND COMMUNITY HEALTH SERVICES TO MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE KEEPING PEOPLE WELL AND OUT OF HOSPITAL TO UNBLOCK OUR EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS. UNDERSTAFFING IS ALSO A CRITICAL ISSUE THAT YOU HAVEN'T MENTIONED THERE, MINISTER. INDEED IT IS. WE NEED TO` WE'VE BEEN MAKING GOOD PROGRESS WITH OUR WORK` UH, OUR WORK TO SUPPORT OUR VALUABLE HEALTH WORKFORCE. WE'VE BEEN ABLE TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF DOCTORS IN OUR HEALTH SYSTEM BY 1700 ACROSS THE TIME THAT WE'VE BEEN IN GOVERNMENT, AND WE'VE NEEDED` AND WE'VE INCREASED THE NUMBER OF NURSES BY 4000. BUT THEY'RE STILL CRITICALLY UNDERSTAFFED, AREN'T THEY, MINISTER? WE'RE HEARING THAT EVERY WEEK FROM DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE HEALTH SECTOR, AND 1700 MIGHT SOUND A LOT AS A NUMBER TO SORT OF BE ABLE TO SAY HERE, BUT THE EXPERIENCE OF OUR DOCTORS IN OUR EDs IS THAT THEY ARE SUFFERING CRITICAL SHORTAGES OF STAFF. THERE'S A COUPLE OF THINGS IN THAT. ONE IS THE OVERALL NUMBER OF STAFF ` WE'RE MAKING EXCELLENT PROGRESS, ALSO HELPED BY THE FACT THAT OUR NURSES ARE NOW PAID EQUIVALENT` IN TE WHATU ORA ARE NOW PAID EQUIVALENT TO AUSTRALIA BECAUSE OF OUR PAY EQUITY` BUT IT'S NOT ENOUGH, IS IT, MINISTER? AND THE OTHER DIMENSION OF THAT PROBLEM IS THAT WE HAVE PROBLEMS WITH STAFF ILLNESS OVER WINTER, AND THAT DOES MAKE IT HARD FOR THE PEOPLE ON THE ROSTER WHO HAVE TO CARRY THE WORK WHEN SOME OF THEIR CO-WORKERS ARE SICK. BUT WE'VE MADE THAT CHANGE DURING COVID THAT PEOPLE, WHEN THEY'RE SICK, DO NEED TO STAY HOME, AND WE HAVE TO SUPPORT THEM WITH THAT. AND HOW ARE YOU SUPPORTING THEM WITH THAT? BECAUSE THERE'S NOT MORE STAFF TO PICK UP THAT SLACK, IS THERE? WELL, OVERALL, THERE HAS BEEN AN INCREASE IN STAFF, AND WE'VE TAKEN IMPORTANT STEPS TO MAKE SURE NURSING IS REMUNERATED BETTER IN OUR HOSPITALS, AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO TAKE THOSE STEPS ACROSS THE SECTOR. SO, AS YOU KNOW, WE'RE ALSO WORKING ON THE PAY OF NURSES IN THE COMMUNITY, AND THAT MATTERS TO EMERGENCY DEPARTMENTS TOO, BECAUSE IT'S THE BEDS IN PLACES LIKE AGED RESIDENTIAL CARE THAT NEED TO BE STAFFED SO THAT PEOPLE MOVE THROUGH THE HOSPITAL, DISCHARGE WHEN THEY RECOVER, AND THEN OUR EDs CAN FLOW MUCH MORE FREELY. SO... YEAH. ...REALLY COMPLEX SYSTEM. ALL OF THESE ISSUES ARE CONNECTED, BUT STAFF ARE AN ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL PART OF IT. YEAH, ABSOLUTELY. AND WE'RE HEARING THAT THERE ARE 4000 VACANCIES IN NURSING RIGHT NOW. 4000. THE NUMBER OF VACANCIES IN NURSING, UH, NEEDS` IS AN IMPORTANT AREA OF FOCUS FOR TE WHATU ORA. YOU CAN'T BE HAPPY WITH 4000 VACANCIES, MINISTER. I AM NOT HAPPY. BUT WE ARE MAKING REALLY IMPORTANT PROGRESS. WE HAVE GROWN THE NUMBER OF NURSES ACROSS THE COUNTRY REALLY SUBSTANTIALLY` ARE YOU DOING IT FAST ENOUGH? WE CLEARLY NEED TO DO MORE, BUT I THINK WE'RE MAKING ALL THE IMPORTANT STEPS THERE. WE'VE HAD LARGE NUMBERS OF NURSES COME THROUGH OUR, UH... OUR POLYTECHS AND UNIVERSITY COURSES RECENTLY, AND NOW I THINK WE CAN TURN AROUND TO NURSES AND SAY` TO THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE CONTEMPLATING A CAREER IN NURSING AND SAY, 'WE'VE TAKEN A REALLY IMPORTANT AND HISTORIC STEP 'IN TERMS OF VALUING NURSES AND THE WORK THAT THEY DO 'THROUGH THE INTERIM PAY EQUITY PAYMENTS.' WE KNOW THAT A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF DOCTORS AND NURSES CONTINUE TO EXPERIENCE BURNOUT. ONE IN TWO SENIOR DOCTORS ARE AFFECTED. HOW WILL TE WHATU ORA BETTER SUPPORT ITS PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THESE BURGEONING WAITING LISTS AND ONGOING STAFF SHORTAGES? THAT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT AREA OF WORK. I WAS A SENIOR DOCTOR BEFORE I CAME INTO THIS ROLE AND KNOW` I'VE SEEN HOW BURNOUT IMPACTS COLLEAGUES. I THINK IT IS A MATTER OF, IN EACH WORKPLACE, WORKING SYSTEMATICALLY THROUGH THE ISSUES THAT ARE IMPACTING, WHETHER THAT'S SHORT-STAFFING OR OTHERS. THAT IS THE WORK OF THE MANAGERS IN OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, TO DO THAT AND TO PRIORITISE PRIORITISE THAT. IT IS ALSO, I THINK, IMPORTANT FOR BURNOUT FOR THE WORKERS TO FEEL THAT THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO RAISE ISSUES AND HAVE THEM ADDRESSED IN THEIR WORKPLACE, AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE MORE OF A FOCUS. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD LIKE MORE OF A FOCUS ON? MM-HM. IS NEW ZEALAND GOING TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF PLACES AT MEDICAL SCHOOLS? WHAT IS THE PLAN TO GROW MORE OF OUR OWN SPECIALIST DOCTORS? DR BRYAN BETTY, FOR EXAMPLE, SAYS THAT WE NEED DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OF GPs TRAINED. THE GOVERNMENT'S TAKEN ACTION TO SUPPORT THE COLLEGE OF GENERAL PRACTITIONERS BY TAKING THE NUMBER OF FUNDED GENERAL PRACTITIONER SPOTS FROM 200 LAST YEAR UP TO 300. WE'VE ALSO RAISED THE AMOUNT THAT THOSE GENERAL PRACTITIONERS ARE` GENERAL PRACTITIONER SPECIALIST TRAINEES ARE PAID DURING THEIR TRAINING, BECAUSE IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT WE SEND THE MESSAGE THAT GENERAL PRACTICE IS A SPECIALITY AND THAT THAT WORK IN OUR` IN COMMUNITY MEDICINE IS INCREDIBLY VALUED. NOW, I WANT TO WORK WITH THE COLLEGE OF GENERAL PRACTICE TO MAKE SURE THAT ALL OF THOSE SLOTS ARE TAKEN UP AND THAT WE GET THE PIPELINE OF TRAINEES THAT THE GOVERNMENT'S NOW FUNDED. WELL, THAT'S GOING TO BE CRUCIAL TO YOUR STRATEGY OVERALL, ISN'T IT, TO GET MORE PEOPLE GOING FOR THEIR PRIMARY HEALTH CARE AND TO GPs? MM-HM. TO CONNECT PEOPLE WITH A LOCAL GP TO TRY AND ALLEVIATE PROBLEMS ELSEWHERE IN THE SYSTEM. MM-HM. THAT'S RIGHT. SO IT'S CRUCIAL YOU GET THAT RIGHT? THAT'S RIGHT. IT'S BEEN A REALLY HELLISH START TO THE YEAR FOR LOTS OF NEW ZEALANDERS, YOU KNOW, FROM THE HAWKE'S BAY RIGHT UP TO NORTHLAND, AND I WANT TO KNOW ` IS THERE A PLAN FOR THERE FOR SUPPORTING MENTAL HEALTH? LIKE ALL EMERGENCY RESPONSES, WE DO THIS IN TWO PHASES. THE EMERGENCY RESPONSE ` WE'RE WELL INTO THAT. I REPRIORITISED $3 MILLION WORTH OF FUNDING TO MAKE SURE THAT WE COULD MAKE A START. THAT INCLUDES SUPPORTING THE MENTAL HEALTH FOUNDATION'S ALL SORTS CAMPAIGN, WHICH IS GETTING THAT MESSAGE OUT TO COMMUNITIES VIA A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT MEDIA THAT IT IS NORMAL TO FEEL ALL SORTS OF EMOTIONS FOLLOWING THESE TRAUMATIC EVENTS, AND THEN TO ENCOURAGE CONVERSATIONS WITH EACH OTHER AND DIRECT PEOPLE TO HELP IF THEY NEED IT. WE'VE ALSO FLOWN IN SPECIALIST MENTAL HEALTH` SPECIALISTS INTO SOME OF THE MOST AFFECTED AREAS AND TRYING TO BUILD THAT SUPPORT, PARTICULARLY FOR ISOLATED COMMUNITIED. PARTICULARLY FOR ISOLATED COMMUNITIES. BUT I'M ASKING ABOUT A POST-CYCLONE PLAN FOR MENTAL HEALTH. AND THAT'S THE RECOVERY PHASE. I HAVE ASKED OFFICIALS TO BRING TOGETHER THAT PLAN. IT DOES NEED TO LEARN THE` TO MAKE SURE THAT WE, UM, BOTH HAVE THAT WIDER SOCIAL RESPONSE AND THE SERVICES. WHY ARE`? BUT WE'RE NOT IN THE SAME POSITION` BUT WHY AREN'T WE DOING THAT ALREADY? WE SHOULD HAVE A PLAN IN PLACE BY NOW. LET ME TELL YOU WHAT WE DO HAVE IN PLACE. WELL, I'M ASKING ABOUT THE PLAN. WHEN THE CHRISTCHURCH EARTHQUAKE HAPPENED, WE DIDN'T HAVE A PRIMARY MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM. OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS, THIS GOVERNMENT HAS BUILT A PRIMARY MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEM FROM NOTHING. WE NOW HAVE OVER 1000 PEOPLE LOOKING AFTER PEOPLE WITH MILD TO MODERATE MENTAL HEALTH NEEDS IN THE COMMUNITY, INCLUDING IN THE AFFECTED REGIONS. SO ARE YOU SAYING THAT IT'S NOT NECESSARY? NO, I'M SAYING IT IS NECESSARY, BUT WE ARE IN A MUCH BETTER POSITION THAN WE WERE, SAY, FOLLOWING THE CHRISTCHURCH EARTHQUAKES, BECAUSE WE HAVE THE SERVICES IN PLACE. AND I VISITED A SERVICE IN NAPIER THAT MEMBERS OF THAT GENERAL PRACTICE CAN CALL IN. THEY'LL USUALLY HAVE A HALF HOUR WAIT TO BE ABLE TO SEE SOMEONE. THOSE WORKERS. AND AT OTHER TIMES, THEY WERE ALSO CALLING THE COMMUNITY, VULNERABLE PEOPLE, AND MAKING SURE THEY WERE OK. THIS IS DIFFERENT. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT DIFFERENT THINGS HERE. WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT TREATMENT WITHIN THE COMMUNITY, WHICH YOU'RE SAYING HAS BEEN SCALED UP SINCE THINGS LIKE CHRISTCHURCH. BUT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A BROADER PLAN HERE ` A POST-CYCLONE MENTAL HEALTH PLAN, WHICH THE MINISTRY HAS A DESIGNATION FOR AND AFTER EMERGENCIES. WHICH THE MINISTRY HAS A DESIGNATION FOR AFTER EMERGENCIES. YES. AND SO THAT PULLS TOGETHER MULTIPLE AGENCIES. IT CREATES A FRAMEWORK. IT IDENTIFIES THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN AFFECTED AND WHAT THEIR NEEDS ARE. YES. AND WE DON'T HAVE THAT. YEAH, SO THAT WORK IS WHAT IS BEING DONE NOW, AND THE COSTINGS AND THAT NEED TO BE DEVELOPED AND COME FORWARD. BUT I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR THAT THERE ARE CONSIDERABLE OUTREACH GOING ON AT THE MOMENT. THERE ARE SERVICES IN PLACE. AND THERE ARE PROFESSIONALS ON THE GROUND HELPING. DO YOU THINK IT'S QUICK ENOUGH? YES, I DO, BECAUSE THERE WAS A PSYCHOSOCIAL RESPONSE GOING ON IN THE WEEK OR TWO AFTERWARDS. THE PEOPLE THAT WE'VE SPOKEN TO WITHIN THE SECTOR ARE REALLY SURPRISED THAT THIS WORK IS NOT GOING ON FOR PEOPLE IN MURIWAI AND PIHA, FOR EXAMPLE, WHO ARE MAYBE CUT OFF FROM THEIR GPs AND IN THE HAWKE'S BAY AND TAIRAWHITI, THAT THERE IS NOT A COHESIVE PLAN, POST-CYCLONE MENTAL HEALTH PLAN. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT'S THE CASE. IT'S JUST` THERE IS A PHASED RESPONSE. THERE ARE SERVICES THAT ARE ACCESSIBLE. THEY HAVE BEEN BROADCAST OUT IN A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT WAYS. WHEN THE COMMUNICATION WAS OFF, WE EVEN DROPPED LEAFLETS INTO THOSE COMMUNITIES. ARE THOSE NEW SERVICES OR ARE THEY EXISTING SERVICES WHICH YOU ARE DIRECTING PEOPLE TO? SO, THERE'S` THEY'RE NOT TARGETED? THERE'S A MIX. WELL, THEY ARE TARGETED THERE'S A MIX. WELL, THEY ARE TARGETED, BECAUSE THE MAIN WAY WE TARGET IN THIS SITUATION IS BY GEOGRAPHY, BECAUSE IT'S AREAS THAT ARE AFFECTED. SO OF COURSE, THE SERVICES ARE ON THE GROUND IN MANY OF THOSE PLACES. SO APART FROM THE 3.25 MILLION, ANY ADDITIONAL FUNDING YET? WHEN THE COSTINGS COME, WE WILL TAKE A LOOK AT THOSE AND ASSESS WHAT WE CAN DO. WE ARE GOING TO STAND BY THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN IMPACTED IN THOSE COMMUNITIES. BUT EQUALLY, WE NEED TO GO THROUGH A PROPER PROCESS TO MAKE SURE THAT WE FUND THE CORRECT THINGS. AND HOW LONG IS THE PROCESS? WELL, JUST TO BE CLEAR, THERE IS A RESPONSE ALREADY UNDERWAY, AND THERE ARE SERVICES IN PLACE. AND` BUT JUST TO BE CLEAR, THIS IS THE POST-CYCLONE PLAN, WHICH WE'VE TALKED ABOUT, IDENTIFIES AND CONNECTS ALL OF THOSE SERVICES FOR PEOPLE. YEAH, I THINK JUST A KEY THING HERE, THOUGH, IS THAT WE ALREADY HAVE SIGNIFICANT SERVICES THAT WE DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE. SO PART OF THE OTHER WORK WE HAVE TO DO IS DIFFERENT FROM WHAT WE MIGHT HAVE HAD TO DO FOLLOWING CHRISTCHURCH BECAUSE WE HAVE A SUBSTANTIAL NEW PIECE OF INFRASTRUCTURE, THIS NEW HEALTH SYSTEM YEAH, I AM VERY CLEAR THAT WE HAVE BUILT AN AMAZING SERVICE, ACTUALLY, FROM NOTHING TO THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE AROUND THE COUNTRY HELPING PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH PROBLEMS IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS. I DO, HOWEVER, WANT TO BE CLEAR THAT THERE IS PRESSURE ON PEOPLE'S MENTAL WELLBEING. THE DISASTERS ARE PART OF THAT, BUT SO IS COST OF LIVING. A NUMBER OF OTHER FACTORS. AND SERVICES WILL BE PART OF THE SOLUTION TO THAT PROBLEM. BUT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO FIND IT TOUGH BECAUSE WE ARE IN A TOUGH SITUATION. WELL, WE'RE GOING TO DIG DEEPER INTO POST-CYCLONE MENTAL HEALTH NOW. BECAUSE EARLY INTERVENTION IS KEY FOR THE WELL-BEING OF KIWIS ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO HAVE SUDDENLY LOST EVERYTHING. THE HUGE SLIP COMING DOWN THE BACK OF THE HOUSE, WHICH TOOK THE HOUSE OUT, AND, UM... (SIGHS, SOBS) YEAH. YEAH, ITS TOUGH. THEY'VE LOST... THEY'VE LOST EVERYTHING. YOUNG FAMILY. THAT'S OUR GRANDPARENTS, OUR GREAT-GRANDPARENTS. THEY BUILT THIS FOR US. YOU KNOW, WE ARE IN THIS LIMBO LAND, WHERE NO ONE IS REALLY RESPONSIBLE. WITH GOT MONTHS, POTENTIALLY, AHEAD BEFORE WE CAN EVEN ACCESS PROPERTIES. I'M A TOUGH RUGBY PLAYER, YOU KNOW, BIG DEAL. BUT I'VE BEEN CRYING EVERY DAY, YOU KNOW. AND IF YOU'RE NOT CAREFUL, YOU WILL PUT ME INTO TEARS. (WEEPS) COS THESE PEOPLE DON'T DESERVE IT. (SPEAKS TE REO MAORI) I PUT MY HEART AND SOUL INTO THESE FARMS, AND IT'S BEEN RIPPED OUT. WHERE DO WE GO FROM NOW? WITH GONE THROUGH THAT GRIEF CYCLE OF SHOCK AND ANGER AND ALL THAT SORT OF THING, SO WE JUST HAVE TO TAKE A BREATH AND MAKE THE RIGHT DECISIONS. THEY WANT REASSURANCE. THEY WANT REASSURANCE THAT SOMEBODY'S GONNA WORK SOMETHING OUT. WITH ME NOW IS DR IAN SOOSAY. HE IS A PSYCHIATRIST AND HONORARY SENIOR LECTURER IN THE DEPARTMENT OF PSYCHOLOGICAL MEDICINE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF AUCKLAND. HE'S ALSO WORKED IN A NUMBER OF POST-DISASTER SETTINGS, INCLUDING ACEH, EAST TIMOR, CHRISTCHURCH AND KAIKOURA. HE IS CURRENTLY A TECHNICAL ADVISOR TO THE W.H.O ON MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES FOR DIFFICULT-TO-REACH POPULATIONS. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM. WE HAVE SEEN FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH THESE DISASTERS, BUT WHAT PSYCHOLOGICAL SYMPTOMS DO WE SEE ARISING AFTER THAT? PEOPLE HAVE BEEN THROUGH A TERRIBLE EXPERIENCE, LOSING THEIR HOMES, THEIR INCOME; SOME PEOPLE HAVE LOST LOVED ONES. SO IT IS EXTREME YOU COMMON TO SEE A RANGE OF SYMPTOMS. FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHAT I WERE NORMAL RESPONSE TO A DANGEROUS SITUATION IS, THAT IS THE SORT OF EXPERIENCE THAT PEOPLE HAVE. SO THEY MIGHT FIND IT DIFFICULT TO SLEEP, THEY ARE HYPERAROUSAL, WHICH MEANS THEY ARE MORE SENSITIVE. I KEEP LOOKING AT THE WEATHER FORECAST. THEY HAVE BEEN WORRIED ABOUT EVERY SINGLE STORM. WITH THEY MAY FIND THAT THEY ARE A BIT MORE WITHDRAWN AND THEY MAY IN, IF THEY HAVE BEEN THROUGH A SCARY EXPERIENCE, THEY MAY HAVE FLASHBACKS WHERE THEY MAY FIND THEMSELVES RELIVING SOME OF THOSE EXPERIENCES THEY HAVE HAD. WE CALL THOSE POST-TRAUMATIC SYMPTOMS, AND THEY ARE INCREDIBLY COMMON. AND THAT IS THE POINT OF A POSTER CYCLONE MENTAL HEALTH PLAN, ISN'T IT? IS TO GET THAT SUPPORT TO THOSE PEOPLE EARLY? YES. YOU WANT TO DO A NUMBER OF THINGS, AND THE MINISTER WAS QUITE RIGHT THAT WE OFTEN SEE PEOPLE WHO RESPOND TO DISASTERS ARE QUITE ORGANISED, SO WE SEE A RESPONSE AND RECOVERY PHASE, AND THE REASON WE HAVE THAT IS THAT WE DON'T WANT TO SEND IN COUNSELLORS WHILE PEOPLE ARE STILL RESCUING PEOPLE FROM BUILDINGS AND THINGS LIKE THAT. SO A PHASED APPROACH IS A VERY SENSIBLE APPROACH. HOWEVER, EVERY DISASTER IS A BIT DIFFERENT, AND THEREFORE WHAT WE OFTEN RECOMMEND IS THAT GOVERNMENT SERVICES ADAPT TO THE DISASTER IN FRONT OF THEM, AND IN MY VIEW, THE CYCLONE IS QUITE A COMPLEX DISASTER. WE ARE SEEING THE TIMELINE HAS BEEN SPREAD OUT, SO WE HAD THE AUCKLAND FLOODS, AND THEN THE CYCLONE. GEOGRAPHICALLY, IT IS SPREAD OUT. THE TYPE OF COMMUNITIES AND THE TYPE OF SERVICES THEY HAVE ARE ALSO VARIED. AND SO MY RECOMMENDATION AS IT IS ALWAYS GOOD TO HAVE A PLAN. ONE OF THE PROBLEMS OFTEN GOVERNMENTS FACE IN THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS EVERYBODY WANTS A REALLY GOOD PLAN, AND WHAT WE SAY IS YOU NEED A GOOD ENOUGH PLAN TO BEGIN WITH, AND YOU NEED A PLAN THAT EVOLVES. THE MINISTER HAS SAID THAT SHE HAS GOT TO THIS WORK GOING ON WITH OFFICIALS AND IT WILL BE ABOUT A MONTH. IS THAT ADEQUATE?> SO, UM... IF I WAS ADVISING THE MINISTER, I WOULD SAY THAT YOU WOULD WANT A PLAN A BIT EARLY ON. SO GOVERNMENTS HAVE CONSTRAINTS. THEY HAVE TO GO TO TREASURY, GET MONEY, SO ELEMENTS OF THE PLAN WILL BE LONG-TERM, BUT RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING, THERE ARE LOTS OF THINGS YOU CAN DO. FOR EXAMPLE, SOME OF THOSE SYMPTOMS WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER DON'T NECESSARILY NEED MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS. YOU HAVE PEOPLE MOVING AROUND IN INSECURE HOUSING, THERE IS A LOT OF INTERVENTIONS THAT CAN BE DONE EARLY ON WHICH ARE QUITE SIMPLE. THE OTHER THING THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT TO DO IS TO UNDERSTAND WHO IS BEING AFFECTED AND IDENTIFY GAPS, BECAUSE DISASTERS TEND TO SHOW UP WEAKNESSES IN OUR SYSTEM. SO EARLY ON, IF WE ARE EXAMPLE, IN KAIKOURA, PEOPLE ON THE GROUND WERE REALLY GOOD. WE REALLY QUICKLY IDENTIFY THE WORKERS FROM THE PACIFIC WERE NOT INCLUDED, HAD PARTICULAR BARRIERS TO ACCESS. YOU WANT TO TRY AND ADDRESS SOME OF THOSE THINGS. TO FIGHT THOSE GAPS, AND THEN YOU CAN PLAN RESOURCES AROUND THEM. THE MINISTER TALKS ABOUT THE PRIMARY SISTER MEETING THE NEED RIGHT NOW, BUT WILL THEY NEED BACKUP FOR MORE SPECIALISED SERVICES? LIKE TAIRAWHITI, WITH PSYCHIATRISTS AND PSYCHOLOGISTS? FIRSTLY, I WOULD SAY THAT PLACES LIKE THAT HAVE SOME PRETTY INNOVATIVE AND INTERESTING SERVICES, AND I HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF THE PRIMARY MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES, AND THEY ARE GREAT. I THINK WE HAVE DONE REALLY WELL AND INTRODUCING THEM. WHAT I WOULD SAY IS FIRSTLY, DO WE HAVE UNIVERSAL COVER? SO THE EXAMPLE I GAVE EARLIER YOU MAY HAVE FAMILIES WHO ARE RELOCATED FROM AUCKLAND, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT THEY WILL HAVE TO MOVE AROUND TOWN. MANY OF THESE SERVICES, FIRSTLY, THEY ARE NOT, HENCE OF, SO THEY DON'T EXIST IN EVERY SERVICE, AND THERE ARE RESTRICTIONS ` YOU HAVE TO BE AN UNROLLED PATIENT. SO IF SOMEBODY IS MOVING AROUND, THEY MAY NOT BE UNTITLED TO THE SERVICES. SO THESE ARE THE SORT OF THINGS, WHEN I SAY YOU WANT TO STRESS TEST THE SERVICE, THAT IS WHAT THE MINISTER SHOULD BE LOOKING OUT FOR. AGAIN, WHO TALK ABOUT UNIVERSAL HEALTH COVERAGE, AND WHAT IS A UNIVERSAL MENTAL HEALTH COVERAGE? THAT IS THE FIRST ELEMENT. THE SECOND IS THAT IF YOU HAVE GAPS, THEN THE ONLY KIND OF SHOW IN TOWN AS SPECIALIST SERVICES. SO YOU WON'T END UP PUTTING PRESSURE ON THEM, BUT DISASTERS CAN INCREASE THE PREVALENCE OF SEVERE DISORDERS, AND WE SEE THAT OVER THE COURSE OF 10 YEARS. UNLIKE VACCINATIONS, WHERE YOU VACCINATE PEOPLE AT THE BEGINNING AND YOU ARE DONE, WITH MENTAL HEALTH, WHAT WE TEND TO SEE AS IT EMERGES OVER TIME, WAXES AND WANES. SO YOU NEED SERVICES THAT ARE STOOD UP TO SUPPORT THE COMMUNITY. IN BOTH THE SHORT AND LONG-TERM. DR IAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US. THANK YOU. PLENTY TO UNPACK THERE WITH OUR POLITICAL PANEL, SARAH SPARKS, ANDREA VANCE AND JENNY MARCROFT. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK. THE FLOODING AND CYCLONES HAVE BROUGHT INTO FOCUS THE FLOODING AND CYCLONES HAVE BROUGHT INTO FOCUS HOW VITAL OUR WETLANDS ARE AS SINK HOLES FOR WATER. BUT IN AOTEAROA, WE'VE ALREADY DRAINED OR LOST 90% OF THEM. NEW REGULATIONS IN 2020 PROVIDED STRICTER PROTECTIONS, BUT THE GOVERNMENT RECENTLY LOOSENED THEM. WHY? NICOLA TOKI IS THE CEO OF FOREST AND BIRD. SHE HAS ALSO WORKED FOR FONTERRA PROJECT-MANAGING WETLANDS. TENA KOE. WELCOME TO THE SHOW. HOW IMPORTANT OUR WETLANDS AS A NATURAL FLOOD DEFENCE? THEY ARE VITAL. IT IS THE PERFECT TIME FOR US HAVING THIS CONVERSATION. YOU CAN SEE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN AUCKLAND AND FOR THE COMMUNITIES ON THE EAST COAST. THEY DO A LOT OF THINGS. THEY HOLD WATER DURING INTENSE RAIN EVENTS, SO THEY PROTECT US FROM FLOODING; THEY ALSO ALLEVIATE THE IMPACT OF DROUGHT, BECAUSE THEY CAN RELEASE WATER DURING DRIER PERIODS, AND THEY ARE SIGNIFICANT WHEN IT COMES TO CARBON SEQUESTRATION. SO I SUPPOSE THE FRUSTRATION WITH US AT FOREST AND BIRD AND ALL OF OUR SUPPORTERS AS WE HAVE A GOVERNMENT ON THE ONE HAND SAYING THEY ARE ALL ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE AND MAKING SURE WE ARE REDUCING CARBON, AND WE HAVE SOMETHING SITTING THERE THAT NATURALLY DOES IT FOR FREE. BUT THE GOVERNMENT WILL ARGUE THAT IT MOVED TO PUT IN STRICT REGULATIONS ABOUT NOT CONSTRUCTING ON WETLANDS. IT DID WALK BACK THAT POLICY SLIGHTLY AT THE END OF LAST YEAR, OR THEY SAY SLIGHTLY. WALK BACK IS REALLY SIGNIFICANT. I IMAGINE MOST OF THE PUBLIC DOESN'T KNOW. JUST TO WALK BACK FROM THE WALK BACK, 90% OF ALL NEW ZEALAND'S WETLANDS HAVE BEEN DESTROYED IN THE LAST 200 YEARS, SO OF THE 2 1/2 MILLION HECTARES OF WETLANDS, WE ONLY HAVE 10% LEFT. WHAT THE WALK BACK DOES, AND IT WAS BECAUSE 21 INDUSTRY GROUPS PRESSURE THE GOVERNMENT TO ALLOW FOR HOUSING DEVELOPMENTS ON WETLANDS, LANDFILLS ON WETLANDS, EXPANSION OF COAL MINES, WHICH FLIES IN THE FACE OF OUR CONTRIBUTION TO CLIMATE... THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING, BUT THOSE SECTORS WERE SAYING THAT THE RESTRICTIONS ON WETLANDS HAVE NOW BEEN SLIGHTLY WALKED BACK. BASICALLY, CUT OF INDUSTRY FROM DOING THINGS LIKE RESTRICTING POSSIBILITY OF URBAN DEVELOPMENTS. THERE NEEDS TO BE A COMPROMISE. I THINK THE COPYRIGHT HAS OCCURRED. WHEN YOU HAVE 10% OF THE REMAINING HABITAT LEFT, AND THAT MEANS YOU HAVE THE REMAINDER OF THE COUNTRY TO FIND THE BITS FOR THE QUARRIES, I GUESS MY QUESTION WOULD BE, HOW WOULD THE PEOPLE OF TE TAIRAWHITI FEEL ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE GOVERNMENT WAS GOING TO OPEN UP CONSENTING PATHWAYS TO PUT HOUSING ON WETLAND? SO YOU ARE SAYING THAT IF THE PROJECT WAS OF NATIONAL SIGNIFICANCE WOULD YOU STILL BE OPPOSED TO THAT GOING AHEAD ON AN EXISTING WETLAND? THE PREVIOUS STANDARDS FOR FRESHWATER BACK IN 2020 DID MAKE ALLOWANCES FOR NATIONALLY SIGNIFICANT PROJECTS. WHAT THIS DOES, THOUGH, AND IT IS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT HAS BOWED TO PRESSURE, IS IT SAYS THAT YOU CAN NOW HAVE A CONSENTING PATHWAY, SO IF YOU WANT TO DESTROY SOME MORE WETLANDS, YOU APPLY FOR A CONSENT. THE CHALLENGE WITH THAT IS THAT THE COST IS GOING TO BE SIGNIFICANT IN TERMS OF FLOODING, IN TERMS OF DROUGHT, IN TERMS OF CARBON SEQUESTRATION. FOR EXAMPLE, PEAT WETLANDS WORLDWIDE HOLD CONTRIBUTED 6% OF OUR AGRICULTURAL EMISSIONS. THESE CHANGES WERE NEEDED BECAUSE THE THRESHOLD WAS SO HIGH, RESTORATIVE WORK ON WETLANDS COULDN'T GO AHEAD, SO THEY NEEDED TO CREATE A PATHWAY FOR THAT. I DON'T BUY THAT AT ALL. THAT IS A NONSENSE POINT. IF YOU HAVE STILL GOT A FRACTION OF A FRACTION OF EXISTING HABITAT REMAINING, WHY WOULD YOU BE TALKING OUT BOTH SIDES OF YOUR FACE ALLOWING FOR THE DESTRUCTION` AND SAYING ON ONE HAND IT DOESN'T ALLOW RESTORATION, JUST DON'T DESTROY IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. IF THEY ARE DESTROYED, CAN THEY NOT BE RESTORED? BECAUSE WE HAVE ONLY GOT 10% LEFT, IS THAT ALL WE ARE EVER GOING TO HAVE? NO, THEY HAVE BEEN RESTORED. WE HAVE SOME GREAT EXAMPLES, PARTICULARLY FOR OUR FARMING COMMUNITY. FONTERRA HAVE PUT IN SIGNIFICANT MONEY TO TRIALING VARIOUS... THE PROBLEM IS THAT WE ARE HAVING THE CONVERSATION ABOUT COST TO THE COMMUNITY AND ECONOMIC PROGRESS; THE COST OF RESTORING A WETLAND IS EXPONENTIALLY HIGHER THAN JUST LOOKING AFTER IT IN THE FIRST PLACE, LETTING IT FILTER NUTRIENTS, PROTECT YOU FROM FLOODS, HELPED YOU IN DROUGHTS. PEOPLE LOOK AT WETLANDS AND DON'T SEE A THING OF PARTICULAR BEAUTY. YOU ARE A SPECIAL CASE. BUT FOR OTHER PEOPLE, THE CONSENSUS WOULD BE IT IS A SOGGY SWAMP THAT ISN'T DOING ANYTHING USEFUL. HOW DO YOU CHANGE THAT MINDSET? I FIND THIS REALLY FRUSTRATING. YOU ARE RIGHT SOMEONE LIKE ME THINKS THAT WETLANDS ARE GREAT. WE HAVEN'T HAD GREAT MARKETING SWAMPS, BOGS, WE HAVE ENCOURAGED PEOPLE TO DRAIN THEM AND EVEN PAID PEOPLE TO DO THAT. BUT WE WERE THINKING ABOUT BOTH SIDES OF THE LEDGER AND FOCUSING ABOUT AN INVESTMENT MINDSET, AND WE WERE EVEN LOOKING TO OUR POLICY TOOLS, WE HAVE AN ENTIRE CHAPTER IN THE PLAN FOR NATURE-BASED SOLUTIONS. WETLANDS ARE NATURE-BASED SOLUTIONS, THEY PROTECT OUR COMMUNITIES AND HELP PUT PEOPLE'S HEALTH, WELL-BEING, AND FOR THE MAORI COMMUNITY, THEY HAVE BEEN THE SUPERMARKETS FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS, AND WE HAVE TAKEN IT AWAY. WE HAVE TO SHIFT OUR MINDSET. IF YOU ARE A CITY DWELLER, YOU ARE GOING TO SAY, WHAT RELEVANCE IS A WETLAND TO ME IN THE MIDDLE OF AUCKLAND WHEN I HAVE A FLOOD? THAT IS RIGHT. FOR CITY PEOPLE, IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT. WE HAVE A COUPLE OF EXAMPLES HERE IN NEW ZEALAND. IN WELLINGTON, THE REGIONAL COUNCIL INVESTED SIGNIFICANTLY INTO WETLANDS. INVESTING AND WALKING TRACKS... THE BEST EXAMPLE THAT I CAN THINK OF AS COLUMBA, IN SRI LANKA. THAT CITY GOT PRETTY MUNTED IN AN INTENSE RAINFALL IN 2010. SO WHAT THEY HAVE DONE AS THEY HAVE INVESTED SIGNIFICANTLY IN ABOUT 20 KM OF WETLANDS THROUGHOUT THE CITY, WHICH THE POORER COMMUNITIES ARE ABLE TO GET FOOD FROM, BUT IT IS PROTECTING THEM FROM FLOODS, TO THE EXTENT THAT WHEN THEY HAVE THOSE SAME EVENTS NOW, THAT WETLAND, OR THOSE INTERCONNECTED WETLANDS, ARE STORING 27,000 OLYMPICS WINNING POOLS WORTH OF WATER, AND THEY HAVE NOT HAD` SO USA MATTERS AND WE COULD LOOK AT? THE RESEARCH HAS BEEN DONE. WE JUST NEED TO GRIP IT UP AND GET ON WITH IT. WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE. ANCHOR SO MUCH. AND ENVIRONMENT MINISTER DAVID PARKER TOLD US THE REGULATION CHANGES WERE AT THE MARGINS AND WERE MADE BECAUSE THERE WERE UNANTICIPATED IMPACTS, LIKE PREVENTING QUARRIES FROM PRODUCING AGGREGATE FOR CONCRETE. HE ALSO SAID THE NEW RULES REQUIRE THERE TO BE NO NET LOSS OF WETLANDS. A MURI AKE NEI ` OUR POLITICAL PANEL IS COMING RIGHT UP. BUT FIRST ` THE POST-ARDERN SOCIAL MEDIA POWER RANKINGS. What's this? Authentic street food. Dig in. (WHOOSH!) Uh-oh. Party's over, folks. VOICEOVER: With added Germ Kill, Mortein PowerGard's All In One spray eliminates insects and 99.9 percent of the germs they carry. WELCOME BACK TO OUR FIRST DIGITAL POWER RANKINGS OF THIS ELECTION YEAR. WHERE HAVE JACINDA ARDERN'S MILLIONS OF SOCIAL MEDIA FOLLOWERS GONE? IS THIS THE OPPOSITION'S CHANCE TO DOMINATE ONLINE DISCOURSE? TO GUIDE US THROUGH THIS PARTICULAR POLITICAL LANDSCAPE, I'M JOINED BY DIGITAL EDITOR FINN HOGAN. WELCOME, FINN. HOW IS OUR NEW PM COMPARING TO THE OLD ONE, ONLINE? UNSURPRISINGLY, CHRIS HIPKINS ISN'T THE SUPERNOVA OF SOCIAL MEDIA ENGAGEMENT THAT JUST AND I DON'T WAS. WINSTON PETERS HAS ACTUALLY TAKEN THE TOP SPOT, FOLLOWED BY DAVID SEYMOUR. MAUREEN PUGH IS THIRD. WAY DOWN AT NUMBER 10 IS FORMER PRIME MINISTER JACINDA ARE DOING. IT'S SO INTERESTING. CHRIS HIPKINS HAS HAD A FEW MEMORABLE MOMENTS ON SOCIAL MEDIA. EXACTLY. A GREAT EXAMPLE WAS THAT JUST AFTER HE TOOK THE TOP JOB AND HE WAS TRAPPED IN HIS TRACK PANTS AND SUNNIES. OBJECTIVELY FUNNY FOR ONE. BUT IT SPEAKS TO THIS THING THAT HIPKINS HAS. HE IS DEFT AT WALKING THE LINE BETWEEN BEING THE BUTT OF THE JOKE WITHOUT IT SERIOUSLY AFFECTING HIS CREDIBILITY. THAT A TRICKY LINE TO WALK. HE HAS HAD RELATED ABILITY ADVANTAGE SO FAR OVER LUXON. IF I WAS TRYING TO BUY THE REACH THAT THOSE MEMES GOT, IT WOULD COST THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS, AND HE GOT IT FOR FREE AND ITS ALL BEEN SO FAR POSITIVE. OVERALL, THE TRENDLINE IS TOWARDS MORE MONEY BEING SPENT ON SOCIAL MEDIA ADVERTISING. EVEN IN THE PAST 90 DAYS, WHICH IS TYPICALLY A CHILL TIME IN CAMPAIGNING, LABOUR HAS DROPPED HALF OF WHAT ECHOES DONE. GREENS NOT SPENDING MUCH, AROUND 3000. BUT FOR A RELATIVELY QUIET TIME, IT'S A LARGE AMOUNT OF MONEY. ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THE ELECTION IS ALWAYS ON. IT'S 365 DAYS A YEAR, 24 HOURS A DAY. IT'S GREAT FOR PEOPLE LIKE ME. IT KEEPS ME IN THE JOB. IF WE LOOK AT THE ENGAGEMENT OF THE PARTY PAGES, ACT ARE ACTUALLY FIFTH IN RECENT TIMES, WHICH IS NOT PAYING FOR BUT FOR THAT KIND OF MONEY. THE PARTY THAT IS GETTING THE MOST ENGAGEMENT SO FAR IS OFP. THEY ARE POSTING ABOUT FOUR TIMES AS MUCH THEN OTHER PARTIES DO. IT GOES TO SHOW THAT THE ANTI-GOVERNMENT, ANTI-MANDATE AREA IS THERE. TIKTOK HAS BEEN BACK. IT HAS. IT'S THE MOST POPULAR SOCIAL MEDIA APP AMONG USERS AND LEAST POPULAR AMONG POLITICIANS. WE HAVE SEEN MANY JURISDICTIONS MOVE TOWARDS BANNS. HERE, WE DON'T HAVE THAT. THERE IS NO TOTAL BAN IN NEW ZEALAND. BUT WITH THE TRENDLINES, MAYBE WE COULD SEE MORE OF THAT. THE FEARS ARE OVER TIKTOK'S PARENT COMPANY AND THE DATA THAT IT IS COLLECTING. YES, IT HAS TIES TO THE CCP. THEY SAY THAT USER DATA IS COMPLETELY SILO AND ONLY WOULD BE ACCESSED IN THE MOST EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES. A MORE SCEPTICAL CRITIC WOULD SAY THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A PRIVATE COMPANY IN CHINA. THE ONLY THING WE KNOW FOR CERTAIN IS THAT AS THESE GEOPOLITICAL TENSIONS RAMPED UP, THESE TIKTOK BANDS WILL BE THE EARLY SHOTS ACROSS THE BOW. IF WE ARE ENTERING A NEW COLD WAR, THE EARLY BATTLELINES COULD BE DRAWN ON TIKTOK. THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. E HAERE AKE NEI ` COMING UP ` OUR POLITICAL PANEL SARAH SPARKS, ANDREA VANCE AND JENNY MARCROFT. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK. IT'S TIME FOR OUR PANEL. WITH US TODAY ` SARAH SPARKS, ANDREA VANCE AND JENNY MARCROFT. TENA KOUTOU. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAMME. THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. LET'S GET STRAIGHT INTO IT. IT HAS BEEN A TESTING WEEK FOR THE NEW HEALTH MINISTER. DID SHE GIVE YOU CONFIDENCE SHE IS ON TOP OF THE CHALLENGING PORTFOLIO? UM... THAT'S A KNOW ALREADY. I DIDN'T GET A LOT FROM THAT INTERVIEW. SHE MADE ALL OF THE RIGHT NOISES. I SUPPOSE, IF YOU ARE BEING CLEAR, SHE IS NEW TO THE JOB. HOWEVER, THERE IS A COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY AND CABINET. A LOT OF THESE PROBLEMS ARE LONG-STANDING AND HAVEN'T BEEN SOLVED. JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE A NEW MINISTER, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE IMMEDIATELY SOLVED. A LOT OF WHAT SHE SAID, SHE HAS A GOOD HEART AND HER HEART IS IN THE RIGHT PLACE, BUT IF YOU ARE WAITING FOR SIX OR SEVEN OR EIGHT HOURS IN THE EMERGENCY DEPARTMENT AND YOUR CHILD IS SICK OR IF YOU ARE STRUGGLING TO ACCESS MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES, NONE OF THE THINGS THAT SHE WILL HAVE SAID WILL BE HELPFUL FOR YOU OR INSPIRE CONFIDENCE. IS SHE CONNECTING TO THE AUDIENCE? IS HER RESPONSE MORE BUREAUCRATIC? I THINK SHE IS RIGHT ACROSS HER PORTFOLIO. SHE COMES FROM A REALLY SOLID BACKGROUND IN HEALTH, SO SHE KNOWS THE MACHINERY OF HEALTH. SHE HAS ALSO TAKEN ON THIS PORTFOLIO PARTWAY THROUGH THE HEALTH REFORMS. IF WE THINK ABOUT THE WORKFORCE ISSUE THAT HAS BEEN PLAGUING THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS, PARTICULARLY THROUGH THE PANDEMIC, WE HAVE A NATIONAL DEFICIT OF HEALTH WORKERS. THAT SURROUND THE WORLD TO. WE ARE NOT ISOLATED IN THAT. BIGGER COMPANIES ARE FIGHTING FOR THEIR WORKFORCE. WE CAN'T COMPETE DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR FOR THEM. ALL WE GOT IS, NEW ZEALAND IS A GREAT PLACE TO LIVE. COME HERE. SHE DID PUSH BACK ON THAT. SHE SAID WE HAVE 1700 DOCTORS AND 4000 NURSES. SHE ACKNOWLEDGES THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH. I FOUND THAT SHE DID PUSH BACK A BIT IN THAT INTERVIEW ABOUT THOSE KINDS OF THINGS AND SHE ALSO TALKED ABOUT THE MENTAL HEALTH RESOURCES, SAYING THEY HAVE AN EXCELLENT PROGRAM NOW. SHE HAS A PHD IN PUBLIC HEALTH. SHE HAS THE OVERVIEW. IT WILL SHE CONNECT TO THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND WHO NEED SERVICES ON THE GROUND? FIRSTLY, I THINK SHE HAS A GRIP OF WHAT IS HAPPENING, AND SHE HAS ONLY BEEN IN THE DRIVING SEAT FOR A VERY SHORT TIME. WE HAVE TO BE FAIR. SHE IS TRYING TO WORK AT PACE. I AM LOOKING AT HER, AND IT NEEDS SURGERY BEFORE REHAB. SHE IS MAKING SOME SURGICAL DECISIONS. AT THE END OF THE DAY, SHE IS ONLY AS GOOD AS THE ENGINE AROUND HER. THERE IS HUGE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE STRATEGY HAPPENING AT HEALTH NEW ZEALAND. WHAT ARE THE PRIORITIES? LET'S GET PRAGMATIC. THINGS DOVETAIL. WHAT IS THE STRATEGY? IT NEEDS TO FLEX. IT NEEDS TO BE ADAPTABLE TO THE CONSTANT CHANGING CONDITIONS. ARE THEY BEING QUICK ENOUGH IN TERMS OF ROLLING OUT A PLAN TO SUPPORT KIWIS WHO HAVE BEEN THROUGH THESE MULTIPLE DISASTERS? NO, CLEARLY NOT. I THINK, ULTIMATELY, IF YOU LOOK AT IT FROM A POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW, THERE IS A VERY SHORT RUNWAY TO THE ELECTION. I CAN'T IMAGINE ANYTHING SHE IS GOING TO DO, GOING INTO WHAT IS GOING TO BE A TO MULCH WAS WINTER FOR THE HEALTH SERVICE, IS GOING TO MAKE MUCH DIFFERENCE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE THINKING ABOUT THE VOTING PRIORITIES IN OCTOBER. IS THIS GOING TO BE A WEAK POINT FOR THE GOVERNMENT? IT'S A SHORT RUNWAY INTO THE ELECTION. MULTIPLE DISASTERS AND A BAD WINTER COMING. ABSOLUTELY. IT HAS TO BE FRONT OF MIND FOR THE MINISTER. BECAUSE WE HAVE THESE REFORMS AND LEGISLATION IN PLACE. ENTITIES HAVE BEEN ESTABLISHED, BUT WE HAVEN'T SEEN YET WHAT IS THE MODEL OF CARE. WE HAVE RESTRUCTURING DOCUMENT THAT HASN'T LANDED YET. THAT HASN'T BEEN MADE PUBLIC YET. ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE STILL TO PLAY OUT. WHEN WE GET THAT MODEL OF CARE, THEN WE WILL KNOW, HOW IS PRIMARY CARE GOING TO BE INTEGRATED AND SUCKING UP MORE OF THESE PATIENTS TOPPING THEM GOING INTO SECONDARY CARE? BUT WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IS IT GOING TO HAPPEN. THIS IS WHAT IT HAS BEEN LIKE ` A HOLDING PATTERN FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS. WE WILL HOLD ON IN WAIT-AND-SEE WHAT HAPPENS. KEEP THE HOLDING GOING. MOVING ONTO WETLANDS, WHEN WE WERE DOING REPORTING ON THE ROLLBACK OF WETLANDS, WHAT DID YOU MAKE OF THAT? ON ONE LEVEL, IT WAS SHOCKING TO ME BECAUSE I SORT OF LEARNED ABOUT IT IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE AUCKLAND FLOODING AND WHEN THE CYCLONE WAS BEARING DOWN ON US. I WAS VERY AWARE OF THE RISKS OF BUILDING IN CERTAIN PLACES AND THE DAMAGE THAT FLOODING CAN DO. ON THE OTHER HAND, I WASN'T SURPRISED, BECAUSE ANY TIME THE GOVERNMENT TRIES TO DO ANY TYPE OF GOVERNMENTAL PROTECTION, THE SHEER WEIGHT OF INDUSTRY LOBBY COMES DOWN ON THEM. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT GOVERNMENT IS IN OFFICE. THIS WEEK, FOR THE SUNDAY STAR TIMES, I SPENT THE WEEK LOOKING AT SUBMISSIONS ON THE NEW BILLS THAT WILL REPLACE THE RMA. QUITE A TEDIOUS WEEK FOR ME. GRITTY STUFF. YOU ARE ALREADY SEEING THE SAME PATTERN EMERGING. PEOPLE ARE UNHAPPY THAT THE ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION IN THAT BILL IS NOT CLEAR ENOUGH AND IS SUBJECT TO LOTS OF EXEMPTIONS AND TRADE-OFFS. WHAT WAS REALLY INTERESTING IS THAT A LOT OF THE INDUSTRY SUBMISSIONS MENTIONED THIS WETLAND ISSUE. THEY USED AN EXAMPLE OF, YOU GOT IT WRONG, WE DON'T WANT TO SEE IT HAPPEN AGAIN. WE DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT TO PUT IN PROTECTIONS THAT MAKE LIFE UNWORKABLE FOR US. WHEN IT COMES TO PROTECTING NATURE IN THE CRITICAL INFRASTRUCTURE THAT WE HAVE, IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE. INDUSTRY IS USING WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE WETLANDS AS A REASON FOR NOT CONTESTING THE RMA REPORT. NICOLA WAS TALKING ABOUT MAORI WHENUA WHERE LIVELIHOODS AND KAI OPEN TAKEN AWAY. THEY ARE OUR LUNGS OF PAPATUANUKU. WE NEED LEADERSHIP TO MAKE THE HARD CALLED TO SAY WE ARE NOT GOING THERE. IT'S TOO HARD TO TALK ABOUT IT IN COURT. MY HAPU OPEN WORKING HARD ON THIS. IT'S TOO HARD AND IT'S TOO LATE. THEY NEED TO LISTEN TO LOCAL COMMUNITY AND DO IT PROPERLY THE FIRST TIME. THAT IS PRIORITISING MOTHER NATURE. I WAS LISTENING TO YOU IN THE INTERVIEW AROUND WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE CITY, HOW RELEVANT IT IS FOR PEOPLE IN THE CITY FROM THEIR PERSPECTIVE. YOU JUST HAVE TO LOOK FOR WHAT HAPPENED WITH PEOPLE IN CHRISTCHURCH WITH LIQUEFACTION. PLACES COP IT. WE NEED TO GET PRAGMATIC IN THAT AREA AS WELL. LET'S TALK ABOUT THE POLITICS OF THE PEOPLE. NATIONAL FRONT AND CENTRE THIS WEEK, TARGETING CONSULTANT AND CONTRACTOR AND WASTE. IN BY THE GOVERNMENT. THAT STRUCK A CHORD? NOT WITH ME. I FELT THAT IT WAS... WE DO KNOW THAT WHEN YOU HAVE GOT A MASSIVE CHANGE PROGRAMME IN GOVERNMENT, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE MORE CONSULTANTS. IF YOU LOOK AT THE HEALTH SECTOR, HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN POURED INTO THAT TO WORK THROUGH THESE REFORMS? PERSONALLY, YES, MAYBE THERE COULD BE A BIT OF TINKERING AROUND THE EDGES. BUT NOT WHEN THEY ARE PUTTING OUT WHAT WAS QUITE A GOOD POLICY AND TERMS OF THE EARLY CHILDHOOD. PUTTING UP A GOOD POLICY BUT THEN THEY GO DOWN THAT. IS IT AN EASY HIT FOR AN OPPOSITION PARTY? HATS OFF TO NATIONAL THAT THEY DOMINATED THE CONVERSATION THIS WEEK. BUT I'D NOT SURE IF IT RESONATED WITH A LOT OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE COMFORTABLE WELLINGTON HOUSEHOLDS. IF YOU WANT GOOD OUTCOMES, YOU HAVE TO SPEND THE MONEY. BUT WE ARE IN THE CYCLE OF TRYING TO PROVE THAT YOU CAN COST SOMETHING AND AFFORDED. I DID THINK IT WAS AN ODD CHOICE FOR A STATE OF THE NATION SPEECH. YOUR BIG FLAGSHIP SPEECH OF THE YEAR. CHILDCARE IS A GOOD ONE, BUT CONSULTANTS? I'M NOT SURE. WE HAVE SEEN THE TWO CHRISES GO HEAD-TO-HEAD IN THE HOUSE NOW. YOU HAVE ANY FEELING ABOUT HOW THEY ARE SQUARING UP? (SIGHS) OK. ( THAT YOUR SILENCE A MORE THAN WORDS? CHU FOR ME, IT'S ABOUT LEADERSHIP. WHO IS COMING OUT ON TOP? DEFINITELY THE PRIME MINISTER. THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION THROUGH HIS STATE OF THE NATION SPEECH WITHIN TWO MINUTES, DOES HE CAPTURE NEW ZEALAND? NOT REALLY. CHRIS V CHRIS. THERE HAS BEEN A BUMP IN THE POLLS FOR LABOUR. IS CHRIS HIPKINS GOING TO GET IT OVER THE LINE? IT'S CLOSE. IT'S INTERESTING THAT JENNY'S GUT REACTION IS BUILT INTO THE POLLS. IF I WAS CHRISTOPHER LUXON, I WOULD BE WORRIED. KIA PAKU WHAKATA TATAU. STAY WITH US. WE'RE BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI ANO. WELCOME BACK. TENSIONS OVER TAIWAN ESCALATED EVEN FURTHER THIS WEEK WITH CHINA WARNING THE U.S. THAT IT FACES POSSIBLE 'CONFLICT AND CONFRONTATION'. MILITARY EXPERTS ACROSS THE TASMAN HAVE PREDICTED WAR COULD BREAK OUT WITHIN THREE YEARS. ONE OF THOSE EXPERTS IS RETIRED ARMY MAJOR GENERAL AND MILITARY STRATEGIST MICK RYAN, WHO JOINS ME NOW. EXTRA COMING ONTO THE PROGRAMME. WHY DO YOU THINK WAR COULD BREAK OUT IN THE NEXT THREE YEARS? IT'S CERTAINLY A POTENTIAL. WE PREFER PEACE NOT WAR. BUT THE STATEMENTS OF THE PRESIDENT AND HIS NEW FOREIGN MINISTER THIS WEEK ARE INDICATIVE OF A QUITE AGGRESSIVE CHINA THAT IS WILLING TO UNDERTAKE A NO HOLDS BARRED MILITARY EXPANSION TO GET WHAT IT WANTS IN THE WEST AND PACIFIC INCLUDING TAKING BACK TAIWAN. THEY HAVE BEEN CLEAR ABOUT THAT IN THE LAST TWO DECADES. ARE YOU BEING ALARMIST WITH THE TIMEFRAME? NO. SENIOR AMERICAN COMMANDERS HAVE WARNED THAT THE NEXT THREE YEARS ARE THE MOST DANGEROUS. FOR US TO TRAVERSE. THERE IS NOTHING ALARMIST. IT'S ABOUT INFORMING THE AUSTRALIAN PUBLIC THAT THE RISK THAT OUR COUNTRY FACES. AUSTRALIA IS PART OF THE ALLIANCE WITH AMERICA AND THE UK. THEY ARE GOING TO BUY SOME SUBMARINES. HAD YOU THINK CHINA WILL REACT? IT'S A TECHNICAL RELATIONSHIP, NOT A FORMAL ALLIANCE. IT'S A RELATIONSHIP WHERE WE WILL SHARE NUCLEAR SUBMARINE TECHNOLOGY AND CODEVELOP NUCLEAR SUBMARINES. THE CHINESE ARE CLEARLY NOT HAPPY ANY TIME TO COUNTRIES GET TOGETHER TO PUSH BACK ON THEIR COERCION. THEY WOULD CONTINUE TO BE UNHAPPY ABOUT ANYTHING THAT SEEKS TO STOP THE AGGRESSIVE EXPANSION IN OUR REGION. NEW ZEALANDERS ARE NOT PART OF AUKUS. IS IT A GOOD POSITION? ARE WE SITTING ON THE SIDELINES OR WILL WE BE DRAGGED IN? NEW ZEALAND IS NOT ON THE SIDELINES. THIS IS ABOUT INFLUENCE AND OTHER THINGS. BUT STILL, WE LIKE TO MAINTAIN AN INDEPENDENT DIPLOMATIC POLICY HERE. CHINA IS OUR LARGEST TRADING PARTNER. IS THERE A WAY THAT YOU CAN SEE THAT NEW ZEALAND COULD STAY AWAY FROM THIS CONFLICT? CHINA IS THE LARGEST TRADING PARTNER FOR MANY, BUT THAT HASN'T STOPPED US FROM PUSHING BACK ON THE FOREIGN INFLUENCE AGGRESSION, THE COERCIVE CAMPAIGNS. AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE TO TAKE A STAND FOR YOUR VALUES. CHINA'S VALUES ARE NOT ALIGNED WITH OURS. I WOULD SUGGEST THEY ARE NOT ALIGNED WITH NEW ZEALAND'S PROBABLY. OUR VIEWS ON 5G ARE SOMETHING THAT NEW ZEALAND MIGHT LIKE TO LOOK AT. WHY HAS TAIWAN BECOME THE FLASHPOINT IN THE PACIFIC? I WOULDN'T CALL IT FLASHPOINT, BUT IT'S A SMALL DEMOCRACY, NOT TOO DISSIMILAR FROM AUSTRALIA IN THAT REGARD. BUT CHINA HAS BECOME MUCH MUCH WORSE UNDER XI. THERE IS A LOT OF TALK ABOUT GOING TO WALK WITHIN THREE YEARS. BUT WHAT MEASURES ARE BEING TAKEN SO THAT WE CAN AVOID THEM? AUKUS AS FRONT AND CENTRE OF THOSE KINDS OF MEASURES. NO ONE WANTS A WAR ANYWHERE. ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR TIME TODAY. THANK YOU. WELL, WE LOST A TRAILBLAZER AND NATIONAL TREASURE THIS WEEK. FORMER LABOUR MP GEORGINA BEYER WAS THE WORLD'S FIRST OPENLY TRANSGENDER MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT FROM 1999-2007. SHE WAS BRAVE, FUNNY AND A BEACON OF HUMAN RIGHTS DECADES AHEAD OF HER TIME. (DIANA ROSS' 'I'M COMING OUT') # I'M COMING... # OUT. IT'S GEORGINA BEYER, EVERYONE. GEORGINA HAS BLAZED A TRAIL THAT HAS MADE IT MUCH EASIER FOR OTHERS TO FOLLOW. AND YES, I HAVE TO SAY IT, I GUESS, THE FIRST TRANSSEXUAL IN NEW ZEALAND TO BE STANDING IN THIS HOUSE OF PARLIAMENT. I WILL NOT ACCEPT THAT CHILDREN OF SAME-SEX COUPLES GO TO SCHOOL TODAY AND GET QUESTIONED ABOUT THE VALUE OF THE FAMILY FROM WHICH THEY COME. YOUR HATRED IS TOTALLY INTOLERABLE. # I'M COMING OUT. # I WON'T THE WORLD TO KNOW. # I GOT TO LET IT SHOW. # I'M COMING OUT. IT WAS THE PEOPLE, AT THE END OF THE DAY, WHO VOTED FOR ME, WHO PERSUADED ME TO STAY ON. # I'M COMING OUT. # I'M COMING OUT. # WHAT A FORCE. AN IRREPRESSIBLE CHARACTER IN THE LIFE AND POLITICS OF AOTEAROA. THAT'S ALL FROM US FOR NOW. ABSOLUTELY. WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEKEND. NGA MIHI NUI. TENA TATOU KATOA. THANKS FOR TUNING IN. CAPTIONS BY MAEVE KELLY AND KRISTIN WILLIAMS. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023