CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN AND STEFFI DRYDEN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023 TENA KOUTOU NAU MAI HAERE MAI. WELCOME TO Q+A. I'M JACK TAME. TODAY ` CHRIS HIPKINS' VISION FOR AOTEAROA. CONGRATULATIONS, PRIME MINISTER HIPKINS. HIS FIRST Q+A INTERVIEW SINCE BECOMING NZ'S PRIME MINISTER. THEN, A Q+A EXCLUSIVE ` AN INTERNATIONAL AND SUPER RUGBY STAR SPEAKS OUT ABOUT ABUSE AT ONE OF NZ'S OLDEST SCHOOLS. I DO NOT CONDONE ANY OF THAT ` YOU KNOW, THE ABUSE, THE MILITARY STYLE; YOU KNOW, THE BRUTAL BEATINGS. AS THE FORMER MINISTER FOR THE COVID-19 RESPONSE, CHRIS HIPKINS KNOWS A CRISIS. THE SEVEN WEEKS SINCE HE BECAME PRIME MINISTER HAVE SEEN HIS GOVERNMENT LARGELY IN RESPONSE MODE, WITH WIDESPREAD FLOODING IN OUR BIGGEST CITY AND WIDESPREAD CYCLONE DAMAGE ACROSS MULTIPLE REGIONS. THE PRIME MINISTER GRANTS Q+A TWO INTERVIEWS A YEAR. THIS IS OUR FIRST FOR 2023. TE PIRIMIA, CHRIS HIPKINS IS HERE LIVE. TENA KOE. I WANT TO START THIS INTERVIEW BY FOCUSING ON CRISIS RESPONSE. YOU'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME TOURING THE STORM-AFFECTED REGIONS ` TELL ME ABOUT AN IMAGE OR A MEMORY OF THE DAMAGE THAT REALLY BROUGHT HOME THE HUMAN COST OF THESE DISASTERS. WHEN YOU SEE THE IMAGES ON THE NEWS IN THE PAPER, THAT SHOWS THE SCALE OF THE DAMAGE, BUT WHEN YOU SEE IT UP CLOSE, IT IS MORE COMPELLING. GOING AND VISITING THE ORCHARDISTS, SEEING THE SILT PILED UP SO HIGH, SEEING CARS IN THE TOPS OF TREES THAT HAVE BEEN WASHED THERE BY THE WATER, THAT BRINGS HOME THE FORCE OF THE WATER, THE FORCE OF WHAT THEY DEALT WITH. EVEN SPEAKING TO PEOPLE, I HAVEN'T SPOKEN TO PEOPLE DIRECTLY WHO WERE ON ROOFTOPS, BUT I SPOKE TO PEOPLE WHO WERE FISHING PEOPLE OF ROOFTOPS, WHAT A TRAUMATIC SET OF EVENTS TO BE PART OF! I WANT TO FOCUS ON SOME OF THE POLICIES IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS I HAVE A SIMPLE QUESTION. DO YOU ACCEPT YOUR DECISION TO EXTEND THE FUEL EXCISE TAX CUT FOR A FOURTH TIME WILL LEAD TO GREATER GREENHOUSE GASES? IN MOST CASES, PEOPLE WILL BE FILLING UP THEIR CARS, DRIVING TO WORK, DRIVING THEIR KIDS TO SCHOOL ANYWAY. WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO WORK TO REDUCE OUR GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS, AND TRANSPORT IS A HUGE CONTRIBUTOR TO THAT. FORCING PEOPLE TO PAY HIGHER PRICES FOR FUEL THAT THEY HAVE NO CHOICE TO BUY IS NOT THE WAY. I AM PART OF A GOVERNMENT THAT HAVE SEEN THE FASTEST COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD UPTAKE ELECTRIC VEHICLES. THERE IS MORE THAT WE CAN DO IN THE AREA. WE WILL BRING OUR GREENHOUSE GASES DOWN. TO YOU ACCEPT THAT YOUR DECISION TO EXTEND THE FOOL EXCISE TAX CUT FOR A FULL TIME WILL LEAD TO AN INCREASE IN GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS? PEOPLE WILL BE DOING THAT DRIVING ANYWAY. THIS MEANS THEY ARE PAYING A SLIGHTLY LOWER COST. TO HAVE OFFICIAL ADVICE TO THAT EXTENT? NO. DID YOU SEEK ANY OFFICIAL ADVICE AS TO THE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS AFFECT OF THE POLICY? FROM MEMORY, THERE WAS CERTAINLY SOME ADVICE OF THE IMPLICATIONS ON PAPER. YOU DIDN'T, PERSONALLY ASK ANYONE ANY OFFICIALS ANYWHERE WHAT WOULD BE THE EFFECT ON OUR EMISSIONS PROFILE BY EXTENDING THIS? IF YOU ARE A MUM AND DAD, DRIVING YOUR KIDS TO SCHOOL YOU ARE GOING TO BE DOING IT ANYWAY, REGARDLESS OF THE PRICE OF FUEL. THIS WILL IS THE BURDEN OF THE PRICE. THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WE ARE NOT FOCUSED ON LOWERING OUR GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS. WE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO DO THAT. YOU WILL HAVE SEEN IN THE PAST, WHEN PEOPLE DON'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, I COME BACK TO IT. YOU DIDN'T SEEK ADVICE ON THE EFFECT? THAT WAS NOT THE DRIVER OF THE POLICY. JUNE OF LAST YEAR, THERE WAS A CABINET PAPER ABOUT THE GREENHOUSE GASES IMPACT? I SAW IT AT THE TIME. IT WON'T HAVE ANY EFFECT ON THE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONSL THAT IS NOT WHAT THE OFFICIALS TOLD. CABINET THEY SAID IT WOULD LEAD TO A 2% INCREASE BY HAVING THE TAX CUT AND PLACE. THAT IS 2010 AND 20,000 TONS OF ADDITIONAL EMISSIONS PER MONTH. WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT AND YOU LOOK AT POTENTIALLY TALKING ABOUT FAMILIES NOT BEING ABLE TO TRAVEL THOSE DISTANCES BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO PUT FUEL IN THEIR CARS. THAT IS NOT THE WAY THAT WE ARE GOING TO BRING OUR OVERALL GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS DOWN IN A SUSTAINABLE WAY. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT GREATER CARBON EMISSIONS WILL LEAD TO GREATER WEATHER EVENTS? ABSOLUTELY. WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT YOUR LEADERSHIP THAT DAYS AFTER THE WORST FLOODING EVENT IN OUR BIGGEST CITY IN HISTORY, YOU INTRODUCED A POLICY THAT WILL ULTIMATELY MAKE THESE KINDS OF EVENTS WORSE? OUR DRIVE TO REDUCE GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS IS UNDIMINISHED. THIS IS DEALING WITH THE HERE AND NOW CHALLENGE IN FRONT OF NEW ZEALANDERS, WHICH IS THE COST OF LIVING. THE COST OF LIVING CRISIS IS A GREATER CRISIS? THERE ARE OTHER WAYS THAT WE CAN BRING OUR GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS DOWN THAN HIKING UP THE PRICE OF FUEL. THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT WE CAN DO. OUR ACCELERATION OF ELECTRIC VEHICLE UPTAKE IS MAKING A DIFFERENCE. OTHER THINGS, WE HAVE INCREASED OR EXTENDED THE HALF PRICE SUBSIDIES FOR PUBLIC TRANSPORT. WHAT IMPACT WILL THAT EXTENSION HAVE ON EMISSIONS? I CAN'T RECALL THE EXACT FIGURES. I HAVE LOOKED UP THE CABINET PAPER. THEY SAY IT IS GOING TO HAVE A MINIMAL EFFECT. MICHAEL WOODS AND MEGAN WOODS SAID OFFICIALS CONSIDER THE IMPACT OF HALF PRICE PUBLIC TRANSPORT IS LIKELY TO BE MINIMAL. IT DEPENDS ON THE UPTAKE. THAT IS THE ADVICE FROM YOUR MINISTERS. THE MOTOR SHIFT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN OVERNIGHT. WE WANT TO GET PEOPLE OUT OF CARS AND INTO PUBLIC TRANSPORT. DO YOU DISAGREE WITH THE SENTIMENT? HALF PRICE PUBLIC TRANSPORT POINTS TO A MODE SHIFT. IT IS A REMARKABLE PIECE OF LEADERSHIP THAT FOUR OR FIVE DAYS AFTER A WEATHER EVENT UNPRECEDENTED IN OUR BIGGEST CITY, YOU EXTENDED A POLICY THAT WILL MAKE THESE KINDS OF EVENTS WORSE. OUR COMMITMENT TO REDUCING OUR GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS IS UNDIMINISHED. I DO NOT ACCEPT INCREASING THE PRICE OF GAS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST WAY OF REDUCING EMISSIONS. 10 TO 20,000 TONS OF EMISSIONS PER MONTH AS SIGNIFICANT. THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO REDUCE OUR GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS. I DON'T ACCEPT THAT THIS IS ONE OF THEM. WHAT ROLE DID THE ELECTION PLAY IN YOUR DECISION TO EXTEND THAT TAX? THE FORTHCOMING ELECTION? WE HAVE ONLY EXTENDED UNTIL JUNE. WE HAVE DECISIONS TO MAKE IN THE BUDGET ABOUT THE OVERALL FUTURE PLANS AROUND THAT. THE THING THAT WAS THE BIGGEST IMPACT WAS THE OVERALL COST THAT FAMILIES ARE FACING. THEIR COSTS HAVE GONE UP A LOT. YOU HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, SOME FAMILIES ARE FINDING IT HARD TO MAKE ENDS MEET. THE ELECTION IN OCTOBER DIDN'T PLAY ANY ROLE IN THE DECISION? NO. 80% OF THE PUBLIC POLLS WANT THE TAX CUT TO CONTINUE, OF COURSE. NO ONE IS SURPRISED BY THAT. IT IS NOT CREDIBLE THAT AN ELECTION YEAR, YOUR DECISION TO EXTEND IT FOR A FORTH TIME, GRANT ROBERTSON INTRODUCED A TAPERED SCHEME BEFORE YOU TOOK PRIME MINISTER, ULTIMATELY YOU HAVE PRIORITISED, IN THE EYES OF SOME, RE-ELECTION AND A POPULAR POLICY OVER THE FUTURE. NOT AT ALL. INFLATION HAS STAYED HIGHER FOR LONGER. IF YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBERS, WE MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT TAPERING OFF FUEL DISCOUNT TAX AT A TIME WHEN WE WERE EXPECTING INFLATION TO TAPER OFF AT A SIMILAR TIME. IT DIDN'T; IT STAYED HIGHER. YOU HAVE TO RESPOND TO THAT. YOU HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT WE HAVE TO HELP FAMILIES THROUGH THIS. CLIMATE EVENTS PLAY A SIGNIFICANT ROLE IN INFLATION. YES. THAT IS WORTH CONSIDERING. I DON'T THINK ANY OF THE WEATHER EVENTS THAT WE HAVE HAD IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS WOULD HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THE DECISION THAT WE TOOK AS A GOVERNMENT TO CONTINUE THE FUEL TAX REDUCTIONS. THAT IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF ATTITUDE THAT HAS LED TO THESE KINDS OF EVENTS. OVER TIME, THERE ARE MANY OPPORTUNITIES AS A COUNTRY TO PRODUCE EMISSIONS. THERE ARE OTHER THINGS THAT WE CAN DO TO CONTINUE TO HONE IN ON THE. TAKE ME BACK TO THAT FIRST THOUGHT, THE RESCUERS PLUCKING PEOPLE OFF ROOFTOPS BECAUSE THE WATERS WERE SO HIGH THAT THEY WERE FEARING FOR THEIR LIFE. GO FORWARD FIVE, . , 510 OR 15 YEARS THIS KIND OF POLICY THE DECISION THAT YOU HAVE MADE TO CONTINUE OMITTING 10,000 TO 20,000 TONS OF EMISSIONS PER MONTH WILL LEAD TO AN INCREASED SEVERITY OF THESE KINDS OF WEATHER EVENTS. THE HELICOPTERS PLUCKING PEOPLE OFF ROOFS WERE EMITTING CARBON AT THE SAME TIME. I WOULDN'T SAY THEY SHOULDN'T DO IT BECAUSE IT WAS CONTRIBUTING TO CLIMATE CHANGE. ARE YOU COMPARING HELICOPTERS RESCUING TO FILLING UP A TOYOTA COROLLA? IT IS NOT A REASONABLE COMPARISON. TO TRANSITION, GETTING MORE PEOPLE INTO ELECTRIC VEHICLES IS ONE OF THE THINGS WE CAN DO. SWITCHING COLD BOILERS INTO SUSTAINABLE BOILERS, WE HAVE BEEN DOING THOSE SORTS OF THINGS. THAT IS HOW WE CAN REDUCE OUR EMISSIONS. USING SUSTAINABLE ELECTRICITY. THESE ARE AREAS OF FOCUS FOR US. YOU HAVE SOME EMISSION TARGETS THAT YOU HAVE TO HIT BY 2025. UNDER LEGISLATION INTRODUCED BY LABOUR, IF YOU HAVE INCREASED OR EXTENDED THE FUEL CUT, YOU HAVE READ PRIORITISED OUR TRANSPORT STRATEGY; HOW WILL YOU MAKE UP THE GAP? WE ARE WORKING THROUGH THAT PROCESS AT THE MOMENT. YOU DON'T HAVE POLICIES. THERE ARE A RANGE OF THINGS WE CAN DO. IF YOU LOOK AT THE WORK INTO GOVERNMENT EMISSIONS AND SUPPORTING INDUSTRY TO REDUCE EMISSIONS, THERE IS MORE THAT WE CAN DO. OVERALL EMISSIONS, ARE TRANSPORT IS A EMITTER. THE UPTAKE OF NEW TECHNOLOGY PROVIDES OPPORTUNITY FOR US. POTENTIAL FOR HYDROGEN IS BIG FOR NEW ZEALAND. WE EXPLORE HOW QUICKLY WE CAN UPTAKE THAT NEW TECHNOLOGY. THERE IS A LOT THAT WE ARE DOING AND WHAT WE CAN DO. SHOULD THE OWNERS OF RED AND YELLOW STICKERED HOUSES WHO CANNOT RETURN TO THEIR HOUSES RECEIVE COMPENSATION FOR THE FULL VALUE OF THE LAND? WE HAVE TO WORK THROUGH THIS ON A PRINCIPAL BASIS. WE HAVEN'T MADE DECISIONS ABOUT WHO WAS GOING TO BE COMPENSATED FOR WHAT. IT WILL TAKE US SOME TIME TO WORK THROUGH THAT AND MAKE SURE WE HAVE A CLEAR AND TRANSPARENT AND FAIR CRITERIA FOR HOW PEOPLE ARE TREATED. AFTER THE SEPTEMBER EARTHQUAKE IN 2010, THE RED ZONING DECISIONS AND THE DECISIONS AROUND THE UPTAKE IN JULY THE FOLLOWING YEAR, THERE IS A LOT WE DON'T KNOW. WE DON'T HAVE GEOTECHNICAL ADVICE ON THE LAND AND THE FUTURE OF THE LAND. WE HAVE ALSO GOT TO MAKE SURE WE ARE CONSISTENT ACROSS THE COUNTRY. IF SOMEONE IS HOUSE IS AT THE TOP OF THE CLIFF AND WE ARE OFFERING THEM COMPENSATION, WE HAVE TO OFFER COMPENSATION ON SOMEONE FACING THE SAME THING LOCALLY. WE HAVE TO DO MAKE SURE WE ARE BEING CLEAR AND TRANSPARENT AND HOW WE ARE DOING THAT. AT THE MOMENT, YOU DON'T HAVE A POSITION AS TO WHETHER THOSE HOMEOWNERS SHOULD RECEIVE COMPENSATION FOR THE FULL VALUE OF THE LAND? WE HAVE TO LOOK WORK FOR A PROCESS TO MAKE SURE WHO PROVIDES COMPENSATION AS WELL. I AM NOT EXPECTING YOU TO HAVE THE PERCENTAGE BREAKDOWN FOR WHICH GOVERNMENT, BANKS, BUT I AM INTERESTED IN THAT CENTRAL PRINCIPLE; SHOULD THEY GET FULL COMPENSATION FOR THE VALUE OF THE LAND? IN AN IDEAL WORLD, YES. THERE IS LIKE YOU HAVE TO WORK THROUGH ABOUT WHO PAYS AND IN WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES. CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER JAMES SHAW IS HANDLING LONG-TERM MANAGEMENT, BUT IS NOT IN THE STORM RESPONSE TASK FORCE BECAUSE HE IS NOT IN CABINET. IS THAT A MISTAKE? JAMES SURE IS NOT A CABINET ENVIRONMENT COMMITTEE MEMBER BUT HE ATTENDS MEETINGS BECAUSE IT IS RELEVANT TO HIS PORTFOLIO. SHOULD YOUR CLIMATE CHANGE MINISTER BE IN CABINET? IT IS THE NATURE OF THE ARRANGEMENT THAT WE HAVE WITH THE GREEN PARTY. THEY ARE NOT FULL MEMBERS OF THE GOVERNMENT. JAMES SHAW OR DAVIDSON WILL ATTEND THE RELEVANT MEETINGS. WHEN WE ARE DISCUSSING THESE MATTERS, I EXPECT JAMES SHAW TO BE ENGAGED. IN THE WAKE OF CYCLING GABRIEL, WE FOCUSED ON THE FRAGILITY OF THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS NETWORK. THE CELL PHONE NETWORKS WENT DOWN AND COULD ONLY LAST FOR HOURS. THOSE ARE PRIVATELY OWNED COMPANIES, BUT YOU HAVE THE POWER TO REGULATE. ARE YOU CONSIDERING THAT? WE WOULD LIKE TO WORK WITH THE INDUSTRY TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE A SUSTAINABLE SOLUTION. WE CAN DO THAT BY WORKING WITH INDUSTRY. WE WOULD PREFER TO DO IT THAT WAY. IF WE CAN'T, REGULATION REMAINS A BACKSTOP. WE NEED TO BUILD MORE RESILIENCE INTO THE COMMUNICATIONS NETWORK. WE LEARNED MORE ABOUT HOW WE CAN BE BETTER PREPARED FOR THESE SORTS OF EVENTS. STAR LINK PROVIDED A LIFELINE FOR COMMUNITIES. WE CAN MAKE SURE WE HAVE A BETTER MECHANISM TO DEPLOY THOSE QUICKLY, MUCH FASTER AND TO THOSE COMMUNITIES NEED THEM. WE NEED TO DO THOSE THINGS. DO YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE AS TO WHAT WOULD BE AN APPROPRIATE LENGTH OF TIME FOR CELL PHONE TOWERS TO LAST ON BATTERY POWER IN THE EVENT WHERE THEY LOSE MAINS POWER I WON'T WANT TO PUT A HARD NUMBER ON THE. WE WANT TO PROLONG THAT AS LONG AS WE CAN. IT WASN'T JUST THE BATTERY LIFE; IT WAS BROADBAND CONNECTION. YOU MIGHT EXPECT TO LOSE ONE BUT NOT THE OTHER. AS THE CELLULAR NETWORKS WERE COMING BACK ONLINE, YOU NEED A BROADBAND. THAT HAD AN IMPACT ON COVERAGE. IT IS DIFFICULT TO MAKE THOSE KIND OF HARD AND FAST RULES, BUT ONE THING ON REFLECTION I FEEL STRONGLY IS FEEDBACK FROM PEOPLE. WE CAN DEAL WITH THE POWER BEING OFF, BUT WHEN TELECOMMUNICATIONS ARE BEING OUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE CAN'T TELL PEOPLE WE ARE OKAY AND IT IS STRESSFUL. THEY CAN DEAL WITH ONE BUT NOT THE OTHER. WE NEED TO HAVE SOMETHING WITH MORE RESILIENCE. THE OLD COPPER LINES WAS STILL WORKING AT THE POWER WAS OUT IN THE PAST. PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THAT CONDUCTIVITY ANY MORE, SO WE NEED ALTERNATIVES. THE FINANCE MINISTER HAS INDICATED THAT HE IS CONSIDERING OPERATING ALLOWANCE. ARE YOU SUPPORTIVE OF A BIGGER BUDGET TO RESPOND TO EVENTS? WE WILL NEED TO SPEND MONEY ON THIS FOR EVENTS. IF YOU LOOK AT THE SCALE OF THE DAMAGE AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE, THE GOVERNMENT IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ABOUT $8 BILLION FOR INFRASTRUCTURE. YOU HAVE HOUSING, BUSINESS ON TOP OF THAT. GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO BE ONE OF THE BIGGEST CONTRIBUTORS TO THAT BECAUSE WE NEED TO CONTRIBUTE. WE ARE IN A GOOD POSITION. IF WE NEED TO BORROW MORE TO MAKE SURE WE ARE MEETING OUR CONTRIBUTION TO THAT, WE ARE ABLE TO. WE ARE GOING TO HAVE A LONGER TERM IMPLICATION ON THE FINANCES. EVERY ECONOMIST IN THE COUNTRY WILL BE SCREAMING AT THE TELEVISION. CAN YOU GIVE US AN ESTIMATE? I AM NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU THE BUDGET RIGHT NOW. WHERE WE LAND ON THAT WILL BE ANNOUNCED IN JUNE. HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OR BIGGER? I AM NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU THAT ANNOUNCEMENT TODAY. STAY WITH US ` CHRIS HIPKINS IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. HOKI MAI E TE IWI. SEVEN MONTHS FROM THE ELECTION, WE WANT TO KNOW WHERE CHRIS HIPKINS STANDS ON SOME OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUES OF OUR TIME. THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO EXPLICITLY DEFINE THE POLICIES AND AREAS THAT HE SEES AS AN ABSOLUTE PRIORITY FOR NZ. WHY DO YOU WANT TO BE PRIME MINISTER? I THINK WE CAN BE A BETTER COUNTRY. WE CAN DO MORE TO PROVIDE OPPORTUNITY TO YOUNG NEW ZEALANDERS. WE CAN DO MORE TO ENSURE THAT THOSE WORKING HARD CAN GET AHEAD AND MAKE PROGRESS. THERE IS A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO DON'T FEEL THAT AT THE MOMENT. DOES THAT MEAN IN TERM OF POLICIES? IF WE TAKE IT HIS LIST TICKLY RATHER THAN SPECIFIC, I WANT TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING HARD AND GETTING OUT THERE AND DOING MULTIPLE SHIFTS IN A DAY CAN BENEFIT FROM THAT, FEEL LIKE THEY CAN GET AHEAD, BY A HOME, CREATED A LIFE FOR THE KIDS. THAT IS ONE OF THE OBJECTIVES I WANT TO SEE. I TALK TO PEOPLE ON LOW INCOMES WHO SOLUTION HAS BEEN TO INCREASE THE HOURS EXPONENTIALLY TO THE POINT WHERE THEY ARE WORKING WHEN THEY ARE AT NOT ASLEEP. I WANT TO MAKE SURE THEY ARE SEEING BENEFIT AND DON'T HAVE TO WORK SUCH LONG HOURS AND SPEND TIME WITH THEIR FAMILIES, ENJOY THE QUALITY OF LIFE THAT ALL NEW ZEALANDERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO ENJOY. CHINA. CHINA IS CONSIDERING PROVIDING ARMS TO RUSSIA FOR THE WAR IN UKRAINE. AS THE US INTELLIGENCE CREDIBLE? I DON'T WANT TO SPECULATE ON THAT, BECAUSE IT IS HYPOTHETICAL. THERE IS AN HARD EVIDENCE THAT IT HAS HAPPENED. NEW ZEALAND, WE ARE OPPOSED TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE. WE WILL TAKE A DIM VIEW OF ANYONE SUPPORTING THE WAR IN UKRAINE, WHETHER IT IS THROUGH THE PROVISION OF ARMS OR OTHER MEANS. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WE HAVE HAD SANCTIONS ON OTHER COUNTRIES WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN SUPPORTING THE WAR. SUPPORTING THE WAR. THE US INTELLIGENCE SAYS THAT CHINA IS CONSIDERING OR HAS BEEN CONSIDERING PROVIDING ARMS. IF CHINA ARMS RUSSIA, WOULD NEW ZEALAND CONSIDER ECONOMIC SANCTIONS? THAT IS A HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION. WE WILL DEAL WITH IT WHEN IT IS REALITY IF IT HAPPENS. THE INTELLIGENCE IS REAL FROM US OFFICIALS. THAT IS A HYPOTHETICAL AT THAT POINT. I AM NOT GOING TO MAKE OUR FOREIGN POLICY BASED ON HYPOTHETICALS. WE WILL CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THE UKRAINIAN PEOPLE IN THEIR FIGHT FOR FREEDOM. WE WILL CONTINUE TO CONDEMN RUSSIA AND THOSE SUPPORTING RUSSIAN AGGRESSION. THE HERALD SAID A WORKER AT THE CAR CHINESE CONSULATE HAS BECOME THE FIRST DEFECTOR SINCE THE COLD WAR. HE WOULD FEAR FOR HIS LIFE IF FORCED TO RETURN. HOW CAN WE MAINTAIN OUR TRADING RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA IF WE BELIEVE CATHOLICS ARE AT SERIOUS RISK WITH CHINA? I AM RELUCTANT TO COMMENT ON ANY INDIVIDUAL CASE. THOSE DECISIONS ARE MADE WITH A CLEAR SET OF CRITERIA AND I AM NOT WHO MAKES THOSE DECISIONS. NEW ZEALAND SUPPORTS FREEDOM OF RELIGION. WE VALUE OUR TRADING RELATIONSHIP WITH CHINA, BUT WE CONTINUE TO HAVE FOREIGN POLICY DIFFERENCES AND APPROACH WITH CHINA AND WE CONTINUE TO EXPRESS THOSE. WE HAVE MADE STATEMENTS DISAGREEING WITH CHINA, AND SOMETIMES HE WILL DO THAT PRIVATELY. WE CONTINUE TO BE INDEPENDENT COUNTRIES. NEW ZEALAND'S FOREIGN POLICY CONTINUES TO BE INDEPENDENT. YOU ARE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO BE ON THE COVER OF VOGUE, MAYBE. THERE'S ABOUT TIME THEY HAD A GINGER ON THE COVER. IS NEW ZEALAND'S FOREIGN POLICY WORSE OFF THAN NOT HAVING JACINDA ARDERN AS PRIME MINISTER? JACINTA AND I ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE. NEW ZEALAND BENEFITED ON JACINTA'S PROFILE. IT WAS A BENEFIT WHEN SHE TRAVELLED ABROAD. WE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE, IN MY PROFILE WILL BE DIFFERENT TO HERS. I DON'T THINK THAT IS NECESSARILY A BAD THING. WE ARE MATERIALLY WORSE OFF IN THAT SENSE? I WOULDN'T SAY SO. WE ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE. WE HAVE DIFFERENT APPROACHES. WHAT YOU BRING THAT SHE DOESN'T? I DON'T WANT TO COMPARE MYSELF TO JACINDA. SHE HAS A GOOD FRIEND OF MINE AS YOU KNOW. SHE IS EXACTLY THE PRIME MINISTER WE NEED A DRINK OVER 19 IN THOSE DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES. WHAT DO YOU BRING TO FOREIGN POLICY THAT JACINDA ARDERN DIDN'T? THE CONTINUITY OF OUR FOREIGN POLICY IS GOING TO BE QUITE PREDICTABLE. OUR FOREIGN POLICY HASN'T CHANGED BECAUSE THERE IS A CHANGE OF LEADER. IT DOESN'T CHANGE WITH A CHANGE OF GOVERNMENT. FOREIGN POLICY IN NEW ZEALAND THERE IS OFTEN A LOT OF BIPARTISAN AGREEMENT. WHAT DO YOU BRING THAT SHE DOESN'T? MY PRIORITIES IN THE FOREIGN-POLICY SPACE, WE ARE A TRADING NATION. WE HAVE OPPORTUNITIES TO LOCK IN OUR TRADE AGREEMENTS WITH THE UK AND EUROPEAN UNION. THAT IS AT THE TOP OF THE AGENDA. CONTINUING TO IMPROVE OUR RELATIONSHIP WITH AUSTRALIA. THEY ARE A SIGNIFICANT. RELATIONSHIP WE CAN CONTINUE TO STRENGTHEN THE. WE HAVE THE PACIFIC. WE HAVE AN IMPORTANT ROLE TO PLAY WITH THE PACIFIC. THEY WANT TO SEE US PLAYING MORE OF A LEADERSHIP ROLE. THOSE ARE THE AREAS OF FOCUS FOR ME. IN ADDITION TO CHINA? IN ADDITION TO CHINA. MAKING SURE THERE IS MORE POTENTIAL FOR US TRADING IN THE OCEANA REGION. IF YOU LOOK AT WHERE OUR INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS ARE COMING FROM, MOVING BEYOND WHAT WE HAVE CONVENTIONALLY REGARDED TRADE IN LOOKING AT INTERNATIONAL EDUCATION, CHINA, INDIA, RIGHT THE WAY THROUGH THE REGION, REAL POTENTIAL FOR US TO CONTINUE THE PEOPLE TO PEOPLE EXCHANGE IN THOSE AREAS. , GOVERNANCE. AT THE MOMENT, AS THE LEGISLATION STANDS, AS NON-MAORI, DO WE HAVE THE SAME LEVEL OF LEGISLATION FOR THREE WATERS AS MAORI? . WE HAVE THE SAME HOW DO WE HAVE THE SAME? UNDER THE MODEL AS IT EXISTS, IT IS A CO-GOVERNANCE MODEL, SOUGHT AS 50-50. ARE NON-MAORI 50-50? NOT AT THE MOMENT. WE ARE LOOKING AT THAT, AND WE HAVE NOT MADE DECISIONS ON THE ARRANGEMENT. IF WE DON'T HAVE THE SAME LEVEL OF REPRESENTATION, IS THAT DEMOCRATIC? CO-GOVERNANCE IS A TERM THAT MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS IN DIFFERENT CONTEXTS. THERE ARE LOTS OF NATURAL RESOURCES. WE PUT CO-GOVERNMENT IN PLACE. IN SOME PLACES, NOT 50-50 AND DON'T INVOLVE TWO PARTIES; IT MIGHT INVOLVE A WIDER RANGE. AS A DEMOCRATIC IF YOU AND I DO NOT HAVE THE SAME LEVEL OF REPRESENTATION AS MAORI? YOU ARE DEALING WITH A HYPOTHETICAL. DO I THINK THE THREE WATERS MODEL IS DEMOCRATIC? YES. AM I COMMITTED TO KEEPING IT THE SAME AS IT IS? NO. EVERY LOCAL AUTHORITY WILL BE REPRESENTED. MAORI WILL BE REPRESENTED. 50-50, ISN'T IT? CAN I CONTRIBUTE TO SELECTING SOME OF THE MAORI REPRESENTATIVES? THROUGH YOUR LOCAL AUTHORITIES, YOU CONTRIBUTE. I CAN'T ON THE MANA WHENUA? ONE PERSON, ONE VOTE IS THE MEASURE OF DEMOCRACY; IT CANNOT BE DEMOCRATIC. A CO-GOVERNANCE ARRANGEMENT GIVES MAORI A SEAT AT THE TABLE FOR DECISION-MAKING. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SIGNED UP TO WHEN THE TREATY WAS SIGNED. AS IT DEMOCRATIC? THERE IS NOTHING UNDEMOCRATIC ABOUT CO-GOVERNMENT. WE DON'T HAVE THE SAME LEVEL OF REPRESENTATION. IF WE WERE GOING TO HAVE A CO-GOVERNMENT PARLIAMENT, IT IS A DIFFERENT SITUATION. THIS IS AN ADVISORY BOARD THAT SELECTS A BOARD TO GOVERN THE ENTITIES. WE HAVE SOME DECISIONS TO TAKE ON, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT CO-GOVERNANCE IS INHERENTLY UNDEMOCRATIC. THE TREATY. THE LEADER OF THE COUNTRY, AND NEW ZEALANDERS DESERVE TO KNOW. AS A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE, A CO-GOVERNANCE STRUCTURES FOR THE DELIVERY OF PUBLIC SERVICES NECESSARY TO GIVE EFFECT TO THE TREATY? NOT ALL CIRCUMSTANCES. THERE IS A RANGE OF DIFFERENT WAYS. WE HAVE CO-GOVERNANCE OR DEVOLVED RESPONSIBILITY, WHERE MAORI CAN MAKE THEIR OWN DECISIONS; THAT IS NOT CO-GOVERNANCE. IN DIFFERENT CASES, DIFFERENT MODELS CAN APPLY. THE MAORI HEALTH AUTHORITY IS A BIT OF BOTH; YOU CAN MAKE YOUR OWN DECISIONS. AND EDUCATION, WANANGA ARE ENTITIES ADOPTING BY MAORI, FOR MAORI. PUBLIC SERVICES. EDUCATION AND HEALTH OF PUBLIC SERVICES. CAN YOU CHOOSE TO SEND A CHILD TO WANANGA? CAN YOU CHOOSE DO NOT DRINK WATER? OF COURSE YOU CAN'T. MAORI, WHEN THEY TURN ON THE TAP THEY CAN'T DRINK THE WATER. THE ANALOGY IS NOT REASONABLE. IT IS A RIDICULOUS ANALOGY IN COMPARISON. YOU COMPARED WATER TO THE OTHER SERVICES. EDUCATION, TEACHERS ARE STRIKING THIS WEEK. WHY DIDN'T YOU DEAL WITH THE EDUCATION MINISTER? I DID REACH A DEAL AS EDUCATION MINISTER. I GAVE THE TEACHERS ARE A BIG PAY INCREASE. WE HAVE NEGOTIATIONS THREE YEARS LATER, AND THERE IS BACKWARDS AND FORWARDS. ARE THEY GOING TO STRIKE? I WOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO GO TO THE NEGOTIATION TABLE WITH THE MINISTRY. I ENCOURAGE THEM TO GO BACK TO THE NEGOTIATION TABLE WITH THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION. YOU TALKED ABOUT REPRIORITISATION. WE ARE AWAITING YOUR FINAL PLANS ON THE CHANGES AROUND THREE WATERS POLICY. WHAT ELSE IS HAPPENING ON THE REPRIORITISATION FRONT? WE HAVE A PAPER NEXT WEEK THAT WAS SET OUT FURTHER CHANGES. THE LAST LOT THAT WE HAVE ANNOUNCED IN THIS LOT, WE HAVE IDENTIFIED ABOUT $1 BILLION OF SAVINGS. THAT IS MONEY THAT WILL BE FED BACK INTO THE BUDGET, SO I CAN BE ALLOCATED TO MORE PRESSING PRIORITIES INCLUDING THE RECOVERY FEFFORT AND COST OF LIVING. THERE WILL BE MORE ANNOUNCEMENTS NEXT WEEK. THERE IS REPRIORITISATION THROUGH THE REGULAR BUDGET PROCESS. INTEGRITY. THE INCIDENT WITH ROAD WORKERS HELD UP IN THE HAWKE'S BAY THAT YOU DISPUTED. THAT WAS THE SIXTH OCCASION IN RECENT TIMES THAT YOU HAVE PRESENTED AN ACCURATE INFORMATION. THE COMMENT ABOUT EMISSIONS AND PEOPLE NEEDING TO DRIVE COULD BE SEVENTH. WHY DO YOU KEEP MAKING THESE FACTUAL ERRORS? I DON'T MAKE ANY MORE THAN ANY OTHER POLITICIAN, BUT I OWN THE MORE. IF I GET SOMETHING WRONG, I WILL OWN THAT AND BE UPFRONT. ; I DON'T HAVE A PERFECT MEMORY NOR DOES ANYONE ELSE. AS PRIME MINISTER, I HAVE A STACK OF PAPERS THAT BIG, AND IF YOU ARE ASKING ME TO MEMORISE EVERY ONE OF THEM, SOMETIMES I WILL GET THAT WRONG. I WILL OWN THAT. I HAVE SEEN PLENTY OF POLITICIANS OVER THE YEARS CONTINUE TO BOX ON FORWARD AND PRETEND THEY NEVER MAKE MISTAKES. I AM A HUMAN BEING, AND IF I GET SOMETHING WRONG FROM TIME TO TIME, I WILL OWN IT. LIKE YOUR PREDECESSOR, WILL PRIME MINISTER CHRIS HIPKINS COMMIT TO A POSITIVE CAMPAIGN? NEW ZEALAND HAS A LOT TO LOOK FORWARD TO. WE CAN RUN A POSITIVE CAMPAIGN THAT IS FOCUSED ON THE ISSUES. THERE ARE GOING TO BE DIFFERENCES IN OPINION AND DISAGREEMENTS. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH DEBATING POLICY IN THE AREAS WE DISAGREE, BUT WE DON'T NEED TO BE IN A DRAG EACH OTHER DOWN RACE TO THE BOTTOM. WE CAN DO THAT IN A WAY THAT LIVES NEW ZEALANDERS SITES TO FOCUS ON THE BETTER FUTURE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. BIG GAY OUT TODAY. MY FIRST TIME. IT WILL BE MEMORABLE. IT ALWAYS IS. IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT Q+A TEAM, PLEASE, KORERO MAI. THESE ARE OUR MAIN PLATFORMS ` HIT US UP ON EMAIL, TWITTER, OR IF YOU REALLY MUST, FACEBOOK. COMING UP ` WHAT WOULD A BANKING INQUIRY TEACH US THAT WE DON'T ALREADY KNOW? BUT NEXT, THE WESLEY WAY ` A TOP RUGBY STAR SPEAKS OUT ABOUT BULLYING AND ABUSE AT ONE OF NZ'S OLDEST SCHOOLS. BARGING THROUGH DEFENSIVE LINES, SMASHING INTO RUCKS AND MAULS. ANYONE WHO'S WATCHED THE WALLABIES AND MOANA PASIFIKA RUGBY STAR SEKOPE KEPU KNOWS HE'S TOUGH. BUT THIS MORNING ON Q+A, YOU'RE ABOUT TO SEE TOUGHNESS OF A DIFFERENT KIND. SEKOPE KEPU IS SPEAKING OUT ABOUT THE BULLYING AND ABUSE HE SUFFERED AT ONE OF NEW ZEALAND'S OLDEST SCHOOLS. HE SPOKE EXCLUSIVELY TO INDIRA STEWART. (LAID-BACK HIP-HIP MUSIC) (LAID-BACK HIP-HOP MUSIC) WESLEY COLLEGE IS NEW ZEALAND'S OLDEST REGISTERED SCHOOL, MADE FAMOUS IN THE '90s WHEN LATE RUGBY LEGEND AND FORMER STUDENT JONAH LOMU PUT IT ON THE MAP. (ALL SING WAIATA) THREE QUARTERS OF STUDENTS ARE PASIFIKA, AND THE SCHOOL HAS A HISTORY OF SHAPING SPORTS STARS, PACIFIC PRIME MINISTERS AND TWO SOVEREIGN LEADERS. A PROUD HISTORY OF THE 180-YEAR-OLD SCHOOL, BUT ONE THAT'S BEEN CLOUDED IN ALLEGATIONS OF ABUSE AND SECRETS FOR DECADES. ON A TOUR OF THE SCHOOL, WE SEE ANTI-BULLYING POSTERS PLASTERED ON THE WALLS. FORMER STUDENT AND RUGBY STAR SEKOPE KEPU IS FRONT AND CENTRE OF THE CAMPAIGN. 20 YEARS AFTER BEING A STUDENT HERE, HE REMAINS STAUNCHLY LOYAL TO THE WESLEY BROTHERHOOD. BUT HE'S BREAKING A CODE OF SILENCE. I LOVE THE SCHOOL SO MUCH, AND SO DO THE STUDENTS THAT ATTENDED WESLEY, BUT.... I DO NOT CONDONE ANY OF THAT. YOU KNOW, THE ABUSE, THE... THE MILITARY-STYLE... YOU KNOW, THE BRUTAL BEATINGS. SEKOPE IS AMONG DOZENS OF SURVIVORS WHO HAVE SPOKEN UP ABOUT ABUSE AT THE SCHOOL. THE SCHOOL ADMITS IT'S LIKELY THERE ARE HUNDREDS MORE VICTIMS. ...THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH? I DO. THOSE WHO REGISTERED WITH A NATIONAL ROYAL COMMISSION OF INQUIRY CAME FORWARD WITH ALLEGATIONS OF ABUSE BETWEEN THE 1960S UP TO AS RECENTLY AS LAST YEAR. WHEN THE ROYAL COMMISSION APPROACHED ME, AGAIN, I DIDN'T REALISE HOW MASSIVE IT WAS. AND AS IT GOT CLOSER AND AS IT... I READ THE STATEMENTS FROM THE SURVIVORS, TO ACTUALLY HEAR AND SEE WHAT THEY WERE GOING THROUGH AND, UM... THE HURT, THE TRAUMA, YOU KNOW, THE EXPERIENCES... JUST SAD THAT IT HAPPENED TO THEM AND MYSELF INCLUDED. THE STORIES PREDOMINANTLY DETAIL PHYSICAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL AND EMOTIONAL ABUSE WITH SOME INCIDENCES OF SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND SEXUAL ABUSE. MOST INCIDENTS INVOLVED SENIOR STUDENTS AGAINST JUNIOR STUDENTS. SOME STAFF ABUSED STUDENTS, TOO. MY PARENTS DIDN'T REALLY KNOW ABOUT THIS WHOLE ORDEAL THAT I WAS GOING THROUGH AT WESLEY, SO` UNTIL YOU RECENTLY SPOKE` RECENTLY, YEAH. UNTIL THE ROYAL COMMISSION CAME ABOUT. IT WASN'T TILL A PHONE CALL THE NIGHT BEFORE THAT I ACTUALLY SPOKE TO MY MUM ABOUT IT AND SHE WAS LIVID, AS I MENTIONED IN THE ROYAL COMMISSION. JUST UPSET AND DISAPPOINTED THAT SHE DIDN'T KNOW AT THE TIME. AND SHE SAID THAT HAD SHE KNOWN, SHE WOULD HAVE ADDRESSED IT AND POSSIBLY PULLED ME OUT. AT A PUBLIC HEARING, SEKOPE SHARED THIS EXPERIENCE. IF I'M BEING HONEST, AND BRUTALLY HONEST, ABOUT MY FIRST YEAR AT WESLEY COLLEGE, IT WAS GRUELLING AT TIMES. AND TO PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE, EVERYONE WOULD GO TO BED AT NIGHT ` 8.30, LIGHTS OUT. A CHIP PACKET WOULD RATTLE OR SOMEONE WOULD WHISPER AND THE DORM PREFECT AT THE TIME WOULD CALL OUT MY NAME ` 'SEKOPE, GET TO THE MIDDLE.' SEKOPE SAYS HE WAS FORCED TO STAND IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DORMITORY AT NIGHT WHILE EVERYONE WOULD SLEEP. HE FOUGHT TO STAY AWAKE BECAUSE HE KNEW THE CONSEQUENCES COULD INCLUDE BEATINGS. BUT THEN IT HAPPENED NIGHT AFTER NIGHT. THE NIGHT WATCHMAN WOULD COME IN AND HE WOULD THEN... ASK ME, 'WHAT ARE YOU DOING? WHAT` WHAT ARE YOU DOING NOW 'THAT YOU'RE IN THE MIDDLE? YOU'RE HERE PARADING BY YOURSELF.' AND I COULDN'T SAY ANYTHING. SUNDAYS WAS THE BIGGEST DREAD FOR ME COMING BACK. AWAY FOR KEPU! KEPU! AND THE MAN OF THE MOMENT, SEKOPE KEPU. YEARS ON FROM ESTABLISHING HIMSELF AS A SPORTS STAR, SEKOPE SAYS THE MEMORIES STILL AFFECT HIM AS AN ADULT TODAY AND WANTS OTHER SURVIVORS TO KNOW THEY'RE NOT ALONE. I STAND WITH THEM. I EXPERIENCED THE SAME THING. MAYBE NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY DID. AND I... MY HEART GOES OUT TO THEM. I GOT YOUNG ONES NOW, AND TO SEE MY THREE BOYS ESPECIALLY AND THEIR VULNERABILITIES AND SEEING THE FEAR THAT THEY HAVE IN THEIR FACES SOMETIMES. AND YOU KNOW, I NEVER WANT TO SEE THEM EVER GO THROUGH WHAT I EXPERIENCED. THE CULTURE OF VIOLENCE HAS BEEN CALLED THE WESLEY WAY BY STUDENTS FOR DECADES, BUT HAS NOW BEEN CHALLENGED BY SURVIVORS AS A HORRIFYING TRADITION. HE WOULD WITNESS ABUSE NOT ONLY HAPPENING TO HIM, BUT TO YOUNGER BOYS. THAT'S LEAD COUNSEL TANIA SHARKEY, READING A SUMMARY OF SURVIVORS' TESTIMONIES AT A PUBLIC HEARING LAST YEAR. ANOTHER SURVIVOR ALSO CONFIRMS THAT THERE WERE A FEW` THERE WAS A LOT OF BULLYING AND GANG BASHINGS. THERE WAS SO MUCH PHYSICAL VIOLENCE, SEXUAL AND MENTAL ABUSE AT THE SCHOOL THAT HE AND OTHER STUDENTS WITNESSED EVERY DAY. JUNIORS WERE ASSAULTED DAILY. HE WITNESSED OTHER JUNIORS HAVING THEIR FINGERS BROKEN FROM THESE ASSAULTS. THE SCHOOL ACCEPTS WHAT SURVIVORS HAVE SHARED. IT ALSO ACKNOWLEDGED THAT, FOR MANY, ITS APOLOGY HAS COME DECADES TOO LATE. WELL, WE'RE ALL VERY SORRY FOR WHAT HAPPENED AND WE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT. AND IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE THAT IN THE FOREFRONT OF OUR MINDS AS WE MOVE FORWARD. THE YOUNGEST SURVIVOR HEARD BY THE INQUIRY REPORTED BEING GANG BASHED AT THE SCHOOL JUST LAST YEAR. THE SCHOOL HAS CONFIRMED THAT APPROXIMATELY 10 JUNIOR STUDENTS LEFT THE SCHOOL LAST YEAR AFTER EXPERIENCING BULLYING, VIOLENCE OR ABUSE. Q+A CAN ALSO CONFIRM TWO MORE STUDENTS HAVE COME FORWARD TO THE SCHOOL WITH ALLEGATIONS OF SERIOUS PHYSICAL VIOLENCE WITHIN THE PAST 12 MONTHS. IT'S ON THE DECLINE, AND HOPEFULLY THIS YEAR ` TOUCHWOOD ` THERE'LL BE NOTHING AT ALL. THAT'S THE HOPE. OBVIOUSLY, WE CAN'T CONTROL EVERYTHING. WE CAN'T BE EVERYWHERE AND WE CAN'T CONTROL IF STUDENTS ARE INFLUENCED BY OTHERS TO UPHOLD THESE OLD WAYS. BUT WE WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE THIS PLACE, YOU KNOW, POSITIVE AS POSSIBLE. Q+A RECEIVED A TIP-OFF ABOUT CLAIMS OF SERIOUS CONCERNS FOUND AT THE SCHOOL'S HOSTELS JUST LAST YEAR. WE WERE TOLD AN INSPECTION BY THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION FOUND SENIOR STUDENTS SLEEPING IN THE SAME HOSTEL AS JUNIOR STUDENTS WITH NO APPROPRIATE OVERNIGHT SUPERVISION IN PLACE FOR ALL THE SCHOOL'S HOSTELS. WE WERE ALSO TOLD STUDENTS HAD NO ACCESS TO DRINKING WATER, NO DESKS FOR STUDYING AND NO PHONE LINE TO CALL A STAFF MEMBER FOR ASSISTANCE IF NEEDED. THE SCHOOL HAS CONFIRMED THE MINISTRY BRIEFLY REVOKED ITS HOSTELS LICENCE IN DECEMBER LAST YEAR. IN A STATEMENT, ERO SAID IT WAS AWARE OF THE CONCERNS WE RAISED AND SAID THE SCHOOL HAD BEEN WORKING WITH THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION TO RECTIFY ANY POTENTIAL BREACHES OF THE EDUCATION HOSTELS REGULATIONS. THE MINISTRY OF EDUCATION ALSO CONFIRMED THIS AND SAID, AFTER A REINSPECTION IN JANUARY IT WAS NOW SATISFIED THAT THE SCHOOL HAD MET STANDARDS TO OPERATE FIVE OF ITS SIX HOSTELS. THE SIXTH HOSTEL REMAINS SHUT FOR RENOVATIONS. ACTING PRINCIPAL CHRIS WOOD SAYS, PREVIOUSLY, A STAFF MEMBER WOULD BE SLEEPING IN A BUILDING NEARBY BUT NOW THERE IS 24/7 OVERNIGHT SUPERVISION IN PLACE, WITH DORM PARENTS STAYING INSIDE THE HOSTELS AT NIGHT. HE SAYS STUDENTS CAN ACCESS WATER INSIDE THE HOSTELS' KITCHEN AND LOUNGE AREAS AND THAT ALL HOSTELS ARE NOW FURNISHED WITH DESKS. HE SAID THERE'D ALWAYS BEEN A WORKING PHONE INSIDE THE HOSTELS THAT STUDENTS COULD USE TO CONTACT A STAFF MEMBER. GIVEN THE HISTORY OF ABUSE THAT HAS BEEN KNOWN FOR DECADES OF THE SCHOOL, HOW WAS THAT ACCEPTABLE IN THE FIRST PLACE? I DON'T THINK IT WAS. IF I WAS A PARENT, I'D WANT... YOU KNOW, I'D BE... I WOULDN'T BE HAPPY IF MY SON OR DAUGHTER WAS UNSUPERVISED OVERNIGHT. AND I THINK THESE CURRENT CHANGES ARE REALLY, REALLY IMPORTANT. WOOD ALSO ADMITTED YEAR 13 STUDENTS WERE TEMPORARILY SLEEPING IN THE SAME DORM AS YEAR NINE STUDENTS WHILE ONE DORM WAS BEING RENOVATED. SO GIVEN THE ALLEGATIONS OF ABUSE THAT HAVE PREDOMINANTLY, BY THE SCHOOL'S ADMISSION, BEEN SENIOR STUDENTS ON JUNIOR STUDENTS, AND SOME OF THOSE INSTANCES OF ABUSE INCLUDE SEXUAL ABUSE ALLEGATIONS AS WELL, DO YOU THINK IT WAS ACCEPTABLE TO HAVE UNSUPERVISED SENIOR STUDENTS SLEEPING IN THE SAME DORM AS JUNIOR STUDENTS AT NIGHT? I THINK THAT WAS ABSOLUTELY FINE AT THE TIME. OUR YEAR 13 STUDENTS ARE AN AMAZING BUNCH OF STUDENTS. THEY'RE GREAT LEADERS. AND THAT WAS CAREFULLY PLANNED. AND LIKE I SAY, IT WAS ONLY TEMPORARY. DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THAT MIGHT BE A HARD PILL TO SWALLOW FOR SOME SURVIVORS TO HEAR YOU SAY THAT? GIVEN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE CULTURE IN THE SCHOOL, NO. IN THE PAST, I CAN SEE HOW SURVIVORS WOULD HAVE` WOULD REACT TO THAT. BUT GIVEN THE CURRENT STATE OF THE CULTURE IN THE SCHOOL AT THE MOMENT ` HOW REALLY POSITIVE IT IS ` IF` YEAH, IT'S ABSOLUTELY` IT WOULD BE FINE, YEAH, AND SAFE. WHAT ASSURANCE CAN YOU GIVE PARENTS TODAY THAT THE SCHOOL IS REALLY TRYING TO CHANGE THE DARK HISTORY OF ITS PAST? WE HAVE A NEW STRATEGIC PLAN, WHICH WE'VE JUST PUT OUT, AND PART OF` A SIGNIFICANT PART OF THAT IS THE POSITIVE CULTURE THAT WE'RE TRYING TO CULTIVATE AND GROW. SO WE WILL DISCUSS WITH PARENTS SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT WE CONTINUE TO DEAL WITH. AND I THINK THROUGH THAT CONSTANT DIALOGUE, YOU KNOW; HONESTY AND TRANSPARENCY, THEY WILL BE ASSURED THAT THERE IS A WAY FORWARD. ABOUT 60 PARENTS HAVE NOW SIGNED UP TO AN ANTI-BULLYING COMMITTEE, WITH SOME PARENTS VOLUNTEERING TO DO DAILY DUTY MONITORING AROUND THE SCHOOL. SEKOPE KEPU SAYS THE COMMUNITY NEEDS TO SEE THE SCHOOL MAKE REAL CHANGE. A SCHOOL THAT WE LOVE DEARLY, AND, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE GREAT THINGS THAT WESLEY TAUGHT US. BUT AGAIN, YOU KNOW, THERE'S NO PLACE FOR THIS ABUSE AND BULLYING AND EVERYTHING THAT GOES WITH IT. INDIRA STEWART WITH THAT REPORT. AND JUST SO YOU KNOW ` YOU CAN SEE MORE OF INDIRA'S REPORTING ON WESLEY COLLEGE AT 1NEWS.CO.NZ AFTER THE BREAK ` NZERS MIGHT BE DOING IT TOUGH, BUT OUR BANKS AREN'T FEELING THE PINCH QUITE SO MUCH. AS THE GOVERNMENT CONSIDERS A MARKET STUDY, ONE EXPERT QUESTIONS WHAT IT WILL ACTUALLY ACHIEVE. IT LOOKS INCREASINGLY LIKELY NZ BANKS ARE GOING TO SUBJECT TO SOME SORT OF INQUIRY AMIDST RENEWED CONCERN OVER THEIR PROFIT MARGINS. THE GOVERNMENT SAYS A COMMERCE COMMISSION MARKET STUDY WOULD BE APPROPRIATE, WHILE THE OPPOSITION BACKS A SELECT COMMITTEE HEARING. BUT WHAT WOULD WE ACTUALLY LEARN? MASSEY UNIVERSITY ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR CLAIRE MATTHEWS STUDIES BANKING IN AOTEAROA. KIA ORA. THANK YOU FOR BEING WITH US. DUMB QUESTION MAY BE, BUT WHY ARE BANKS SO PROFITABLE? THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION. I GUESS THAT IS THE POINT OF THE MARKET STUDY. FUNDAMENTALLY, THEY ARE PROFITABLE BECAUSE THEY ARE EFFICIENT. THEY HAVE DONE A LOT OF WORK TO REDUCE COSTS, AND THEY MANAGE HOW THEY OPERATE. THEY DO THINGS THAT ARE PROFITABLE AND ENSURE THE COSTS THAT THEY INCUR IN DOING THAT ARE KEPT AT THE LOWEST POSSIBLE LEVEL. THEIR PROFITS ARE IN THE SEVERAL BILLIONS OF DOLLARS RANGE. ARE NEW ZEALAND'S BANKS TOO PROFITABLE? THAT IS A HARD QUESTION TO ANSWER DEFINITIVELY. IT DEPENDS ON YOUR PERSPECTIVE. THE IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS THAT BANKS ARE HUGE ORGANISATIONS. WE FOCUS VERY MUCH ON THE $6 BILLION, AND IT IS A HUGE NUMBER, THERE IS NO QUESTION. BUT THEY HAVE $500 BILLION WORTH OF ASSETS. IT REPRESENTS A RETURN ON THEIR CAPITAL INVESTED AROUND 11, 12%, BASED ON THE MOST RECENT FIGURES. IF YOU COMPARE THAT, AND I USE THESE EXAMPLES THAT JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE THE ORGANISATIONS I LOOK AT, AT THE WAREHOUSE GROUP ` AND I USE A SPARK AS WELL ` THEY HAD A 27% RETURN ON CAPITAL. ON THAT BASIS, WHAT THE BANKS ARE MAKING IS QUITE LOW. YES, BUT THEN LET'S COMPARE THEM TO THE OPERATIONS IN AUSTRALIA. THE BIG FOUR BANKS ARE AUSTRALIAN OWNED. ADJUSTER FOR INCOME, THE BIG FOUR BANKS MAKE ROUGHLY 20% MORE IN PROFIT OF NEW ZEALAND CUSTOMERS THAN THEY DO IN AUSTRALIA. HOW IS THAT? ARGUABLY, THEY ARE MORE PROFITABLE IN NEW ZEALAND BECAUSE THEY HAVE MANAGED THEIR COSTS AND A BETTER WAY. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER IN AUSTRALIA, THE AUSTRALIAN BANKS HAVE THE COST OF THE HEADQUARTERS, THE OVERSIGHT OPERATIONS. PART OF THE WAY THE NEW ZEALAND BANKS CONTRIBUTE TO THAT IS THROUGH RETURNING A DIVIDEND. TO DO THAT, THEY HAVE TO MAKE PROFITS IN ORDER TO DO THAT. I DON'T THINK YOU NECESSARILY COMPARE IT DIRECTLY, BECAUSE IT IS A SUBSIDIARY OPERATION AND HAS DIFFERENT COSTS. WHAT WOULD BE MORE EFFECTIVE IN YOUR MIND ` A COMMERCE COMMISSION MARKET STUDY OR A SELECT COMMITTEE HEARING? WE WOULD WE LEARN MORE? IN MY MIND, THERE IS NO DOUBT THE COMMERCE COMMISSION ENQUIRY IS THE ONE WE NEED. IF WE HAVE A SELECT COMMITTEE ENQUIRY, IT IS VERY POLITICAL. YOU HAVE POLITICIANS ASKING THE QUESTIONS, WHEREAS IF YOU HAVE A COMMERCE COMMISSION DOING IT THEY CAN DO IT THOROUGHLY; THEY CAN USE EXPERTS AND THEY CAN DO A REALLY DETAILED INVESTIGATION. THE ISSUE IF WE HAVE A SELECT COMMITTEE ENQUIRY AS IT WILL BE A ONCE OVER LIGHTLY AND WILL NOT ANSWER QUESTIONS WE HAVE. ABSOLUTELY, COMMERCE COMMISSION ENQUIRY. WHAT WOULD WE LEARN FROM THAT ENQUIRY IN YOUR MIND? AGAIN, ANOTHER REALLY GOOD QUESTION AND I AM NOT SURE WE KNOW THE ANSWER. IN MY VIEW, I DON'T THINK WE WILL LEARN MUCH. POTENTIALLY, IT COMES DOWN TO EXACTLY WHAT QUESTIONS THEY ASK AND THEREFORE WHAT THEY INVESTIGATE. POTENTIALLY, WE COULD UNDERSTAND BETTER EXACTLY HOW THE BANKS MAKE THEIR MONEY, SO WHICH PARTS OF THE MARKET THEY ARE MAKING MONEY FROM. WHAT ARE THE COSTS? AND ALSO WHAT WOULD BE INTERESTING IS TO UNDERSTAND HOW THEY CONTRIBUTING TO THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY. WE FOCUS VERY MUCH ON THE PROFITS THEY MAKE AND THE FACT THAT THAT GOES BACK TO AUSTRALIA, TO A LARGE EXTENT, BUT HOW ARE THEY ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTING IN TERMS OF EMPLOYMENT, OTHER RESOURCES THEY NEED TO USE? IN TERMS OF THEIR CONTRIBUTION THROUGH VARIOUS SPONSORSHIP AND MARKETING ARRANGEMENTS TO VARIOUS PARTS OF THE NEW ZEALAND ECONOMY. YOU HAVE GOT TO BANK OF NEW ZEALAND OPERATING WITH AN ORGANISATION TO MAKE LOW INTEREST LOANS, OR NO INTEREST LOANS TO PEOPLE THAT NEED THEM. THE BANKS ARE ALL DOING THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT IT IS NOT CLEAR THAT WE SEE THAT VERY WELL. PERHAPS THAT IS PART OF WHAT THE QUESTION SHOULD BE ASKING. THE POLITICIANS ARE INCENTIVISED AT THE MOMENT TO BE SEEN TO BE GIVING THE BANKS A HARD TIME. IT IS BETTER TO SAY THE BANKS ARE NOT SUPER POPULAR AS THEY RECKON BILLIONS FROM NEW ZEALAND CONSUMERS. WHY DO YOU SAY A SELECT COMMITTEE WOULD WE PRESENT A ONCE OVER LIGHTLY FOR THE BANKS? I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING SPECIAL ABOUT THE MOMENT IN TERMS OF THE LACK OF POPULARITY OF THE BANKS. I CAN GO BACK 30 OR 40 YEARS AND TELL YOU THE BANKS HAVE NEVER BEEN POPULAR. WHEN YOU WORK FOR A BANK, YOU DON'T WANT TO GO TO A PARTY AND ADMIT THAT; IT IS ALMOST LIKE WORKING FOR THE IRD. MY CONCERN WITH THE POLITICIANS AS THEY ARE LOOKING AT POINTSCORING AND TRYING TO MAKE POINTS. I DON'T SEE THAT A SELECT COMMITTEE ENQUIRY IS GOING TO BE AS THOROUGH AND TAKE AS MUCH TIME. ONE OF THE THINGS THE SELECT COMMITTEE ENQUIRY AS THEY WOULD BE LOOKING TO GET IT SIGNED BY THE TIME OF THE ELECTION. IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO A PROPER ENQUIRY, IT WILL TAKE TIME, AND I DON'T THINK WE CAN EXPECT TO HAVE IT DONE IT QUICKLY. IS THAT ENOUGH COMPETITION AT THE NEW ZEALAND BANKING SECTOR? GIVEN THE NUMBER OF BANKS THAT OPERATE HERE, IT IS HARD TO ARGUE THERE IS NOT A LACK OF COMPETITION; SORRY, TO ARGUE THERE IS A LACK OF COMPETITION. IF PEOPLE REALLY DISLIKE THE AUSTRALIAN BANKS, AND THEY HAVE SOME ALTERNATIVES ` KIWIBANKS, SBS, THE COOPERATIVE BANK AND TSB. YOU HAVE FOUGHT NEW ZEALAND OWNED BANKS THAT IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE AUSTRALIAN OWNED BANKS YOU HAVE THE OPTION OF ` AND THERE ARE OTHER NON-BANK FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS YOU CAN WORK WITH. THE OTHER THING THAT HAS COME OUT RECENTLY IN THE MEDIA THAT SUGGESTS A LEVEL OF COMPETITION IS THE BACKROOM DEALS THEY HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR AT LEAST BE NZ AND ASB, I THINK IT IS. TALKING ABOUT THE DEALS NEW CUSTOMERS CAN GET BUT THEY ARE NOT PUBLICISING. THE ONLY REASON THEY DO THAT IS TO COMPETE. IF THEY WERE NOT COMPETING, WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT? WOULD AN ENQUIRY BE EMBARRASSING FOR GOVERNMENT POLICY OR THE RESERVE BANK? I GUESS POTENTIALLY. IT COULD BE EMBARRASSING FOR THE RESERVE BANK MORE THAN THE GOVERNMENT. IF IT SHOWED SOMETHING THAT THE RESERVE BANK HAS NOT BEEN DOING THAT IT COULD HAVE BEEN DOING. IT IS HARD TO SEE THAT WOULD BE LIKELY TO HAPPEN, BUT IT IS A POSSIBILITY. BANKS NEEDS TO BUILD CAPITAL AT THE MOMENT, PARTICULARLY WITH A DOWNTURN LIKELY ON THE WAY. I PROFITS OF THAT BANKS ARE MAKING GENUINELY GOING INTO STRENGTHENING CAPITAL POSITIONS OR TO WHAT EXTENT ARE THEY DOING THAT VERSUS RETURNING DIVIDENDS FOR SHAREHOLDERS? I CANNOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION DIRECTLY, BUT CERTAINLY SOME OF THE PROFITS ARE GOING BACK TO THEIR PARENT BANK IN THE WAY OF A DIVIDEND. THAT IS BY THE PARENT BANK HAS THEM, BECAUSE THEY WANT MONEY GOING BACK TO THEM. SOME OF IT HAS TO GO INTO CAPITAL, BECAUSE THE BANKS CANNOT CONTINUE TO GROW IF THEY DON'T INCREASE CAPITAL. UNLESS THEY GET ADDITIONAL CAPITAL FROM THEIR PARENTS, THE ONLY WAY TO INCREASE CAPITAL LEVELS IS BY THE PROFITS THEY MAKE. THEY DEFINITELY NEED IT IN ORDER TO KEEP GROWING, AND WE SEE THEM CONTINUE TO GROW. THAT DEFINITELY IS HAPPENING TO AN EXTENT. THEORETICALLY, WHAT CHANGES IN POLICY COULD A GOVERNMENT MAKE IN THE FUTURE THAT WOULD REALLY IMPACT THE PROFITS ARE BANKS ARE MAKING? THIS IS A DIFFICULT QUESTION. I AM NOT SURE WHAT COULD UNPACK THE PROFITS BECAUSE IT DEPENDS ON WHAT HAPPENS. THERE'S A CHANCE THAT WHATEVER THE GOVERNMENT DOES TO REQUIRE BANKS TO SPEND MORE IN TERMS OF THE OPERATIONS ARE NEW ZEALAND ARE LIKELY TO BE PASSED ON TO THE CUSTOMERS, IN WHICH CASE THE PROFITS WILL NOT CHANGE. ONE OF THE THINGS THE GOVERNMENT COULD DO TO ASSIST IN TERMS OF CREATING A MORE OPEN BANKING ENVIRONMENT AND A MORE OBVIOUSLY COMPETITIVE ENVIRONMENT WOULD BE TO REQUIRE THE BANKS TO INTRODUCE NUMBER PORTABILITY FOR YOUR BANK ACCOUNT NUMBERS. WE HAVE IT IN THE TELECOMMUNICATIONS SECTOR. AS AN EXAMPLE, IF YOU HAVE AN 021 TELEPHONE NUMBER, IT USED TO BE YOU KNEW THAT WAS A VODAFONE CUSTOMER. THESE DAYS, IT COULD BE SPARKED, 2DEGREES OR VODAFONE. WHAT WE NEED IS THE SAME WITH OUR BANK ACCOUNT NUMBERS ` 03, YOU KNOW IT AS WITH A CERTAIN BAG. YOU DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR BANK ACCOUNT NUMBER WHEN YOU CHANGE BANKS. THE PERCEPTION OF HOW EASY IT IS TO CHANGE BANKS INCREASES. AT THE MOMENT, IT IS QUITE EASY TO CHANGE BANK, BUT THERE IS A PERCEPTION FOR PEOPLE THAT IT IS QUITE DIFFICULT. ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT CAN DO TO SIMPLIFY THAT IS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE. I HAVE BEEN TOLD IN THE PAST THAT TECHNOLOGICALLY, IT IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE NUMBER PORTABILITY. IT WOULD BE COMPLEX AND EXPENSIVE, BUT IF THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO DO SOMETHING, THAT IS SOMETHING TANGIBLE THEY COULD DO THAT WOULD HAVE AN IMPACT THAT WOULD BE OBVIOUS. FINALLY, THE GREEN PARTY HAS RENEWED ITS CALLS FOR A WINDFALL TAX THAT COULD POTENTIALLY AFFECT THE BANKS. IF A WINDFALL TAX WAS INTRODUCED IN ORDER TO TRY AND PAY FOR THE DAMAGE FROM THE CYCLONE, WITH THE BANKS PAY IT OR WOULD THEY BE ABLE TO AVOID IT? I THINK THEY WOULD PROBABLY PAY IT, BECAUSE FROM A PERCEPTION PERSPECTIVE, THEY TEND TO ENSURE THEY PAY WHATEVER THEY HAVE TO PAY. THE QUESTION IS WHY SHOULD THE BANKS BE TARGETED IF YOU HAVE OTHER ORGANISATIONS THAT ARE ALSO MAKING WINDFALL PROFITS WHY WOULD YOU NOT TARGET THEM ALL? HOW DO YOU DEFINE WINDFALL PROFITS, IS A BIG QUESTION. THE OTHER ISSUE AS IF INTO OR THREE YEARS TIME WE HAVE HAD A RECESSION AND THE BANKS ARE STARTING TO HAVE THE IMPACT ON THAT, BECAUSE IT TAKES A FUSE AFTER THE RECESSION FOR THE BANKS TO FEEL THE EFFECTS, AND THEY HAVE LOSSES, WILL THEY GET SOME OF THAT WONDERFUL TAX BACK? THAT IS PART OF THE REASON THEY MAKE PROFITS IS TO GET THEM THROUGH THE BAD TIMES. WE HAVE SEEN THAT BANKS DO FAIL. THERE HAS BEEN A BANK FAILURE IN THE UNITED STATES IN THE LAST COUPLE OF DAYS ` THE SECOND LARGEST BANK FAILURE IN THE LAST 15 YEARS. BANKS DO FAIL, WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT. THE RISK IS IF YOU TAKE THE TAX THAT IS SEEN AS THE WINDFALL PROFITS IS THAT YOU WILL ACTUALLY ALMOST HAVE A LIABILITY TO COMPENSATE THE BANKS WHEN THEY HAVE DIFFICULT TIMES. I THINK MANY GOVERNMENTS, PARTICULARLY THE UNITED STATES, FEELS THE LIABILITY ALL THE SAME. LAST I CHECKED, THEY HAVE BEEN BAILING OUT BANKS IN THE PAST WAS NOT THINK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. STAY WITH US ` Q+A IS BACK AFTER THE BREAK. KUA MUTU, THAT'S Q+A FOR THIS WEEK. FROM THE Q+A TEAM, THANKS FOR WATCHING AND NGA MIHI KI A KOUTOU I NGA KARERE. HEI TERA WIKI. SEE YOU NEXT SUNDAY AT 9AM. CAPTIONS BY FAITH HAMBLYN AND STEFFI DRYDEN. CAPTIONS WERE MADE WITH THE SUPPORT OF NZ ON AIR. WWW.ABLE.CO.NZ COPYRIGHT ABLE 2023